"economic centered"
Sandra Dodd
I'm working on the local/regional/international links today, and found
a line in something from India:
Can education become person and ecological centered instead of just
economic centered?
Of the several angles from which unschooling can be seen, I think one
that disturbs people without their even knowing it is the idea that
some of us might not be caring as much about economics as about
personal growth. It's about being a whole person rather than aiming
to be a wealthy person.
And with the same eye that I see that, I also see people charging
other unschoolers $35 an hour or whatever for advice. Some of those
charging are honestly thoughtful and experienced people. Some just
want $35 and don't really seem to understand unschooling yet themselves.
Money is one of the big stressors of anyone's emotional life. Among
Christian conservative homeschoolers there were many families in which
the dad quit his regular job to create or sell homeschooling
materials, and at that point, could the mom try to talk him out of
homeschooling? Much strife was hushed up and covered over about that,
and much of the hostility toward unschoolers is economic. I've been
winced at and about at conferences at which the fees charged for space
in the vendor room provided more revenue than conference fees, and
there I was standing at a podium telling people not to buy anything
until they understood natural learning--that children could learn from
playing with sticks and rocks. (Not exactly those words, but that
general drift, which made vendors desire to criticize me.)
Money isn't usually discussed, and there have been comments made by
people assuming (and being all het up about the idea) that I was
making big money, speaking and selling books. Last year I made $800
or so selling books and Thinking Sticks, which I make out of popsicle
sticks. I ended up spending money on the Arizona conference, which
was okay because I got to see Kirby and a couple of Sorooshians. <g>
The money they gave me for transportation and hotel didn't totally
cover it, but it was fine. Most often I speak at conferences for
airfare and a room. Some speakers who know less than I know charge
$1000 and want a rental car and stuff. So they're not thrilled with
me taking transportation and a room. Sometimes I get transportation
for one of my kids, as well (as I did to get Kirby to Tempe; then he
spoke too, but he wasn't compensated with his own room, which is also
fine).
I'm telling this because what I'm doing is not about money. It's
about sharing something that seems magical when it works. I'm not
promoting ways to get rich, or anything except fun and peace and joy
and learning. People who don't want fun and peace and joy and
learning don't need to hang around where I am.
Will my kids "be rich"? I don't know, and I don't care. All around
me, at every age level, are people who did not meet their parents'
expectations. There's a depth and breadth of shame, sorrow and
broken families involved in that. The expectations themselves cannot
be undone for any amount of money. I know two adult men whose
parents consider them failures. One is a doctor with several
degrees. One has a PhD. In both cases, the siblings are medical
specialists--surgeons or whatever--and the disappointing sibling is not.
That is what I do not want for my children. I don't want to set them
up to feel that they could be a doctor or have a PhD and still be a
big disappointment to their parents.
Some people look at that and see only "low expectations," or "lowering
the bar."
My kids are already doing things adults around them can't or don't
do. I'm not worried at all. They are whole and thoughtful. Neither
of those two things comes from a curriculum in ANY school.
-----------------------------------------------------
The quote was from this page, which is more about politics than
unschooling, but people meet where they meet.
http://www.learningnet-india.org/lni/data/index.php
There's an international page for this now, too:
http://www.multiworld.org/taleemnet.htm
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
a line in something from India:
Can education become person and ecological centered instead of just
economic centered?
Of the several angles from which unschooling can be seen, I think one
that disturbs people without their even knowing it is the idea that
some of us might not be caring as much about economics as about
personal growth. It's about being a whole person rather than aiming
to be a wealthy person.
And with the same eye that I see that, I also see people charging
other unschoolers $35 an hour or whatever for advice. Some of those
charging are honestly thoughtful and experienced people. Some just
want $35 and don't really seem to understand unschooling yet themselves.
Money is one of the big stressors of anyone's emotional life. Among
Christian conservative homeschoolers there were many families in which
the dad quit his regular job to create or sell homeschooling
materials, and at that point, could the mom try to talk him out of
homeschooling? Much strife was hushed up and covered over about that,
and much of the hostility toward unschoolers is economic. I've been
winced at and about at conferences at which the fees charged for space
in the vendor room provided more revenue than conference fees, and
there I was standing at a podium telling people not to buy anything
until they understood natural learning--that children could learn from
playing with sticks and rocks. (Not exactly those words, but that
general drift, which made vendors desire to criticize me.)
Money isn't usually discussed, and there have been comments made by
people assuming (and being all het up about the idea) that I was
making big money, speaking and selling books. Last year I made $800
or so selling books and Thinking Sticks, which I make out of popsicle
sticks. I ended up spending money on the Arizona conference, which
was okay because I got to see Kirby and a couple of Sorooshians. <g>
The money they gave me for transportation and hotel didn't totally
cover it, but it was fine. Most often I speak at conferences for
airfare and a room. Some speakers who know less than I know charge
$1000 and want a rental car and stuff. So they're not thrilled with
me taking transportation and a room. Sometimes I get transportation
for one of my kids, as well (as I did to get Kirby to Tempe; then he
spoke too, but he wasn't compensated with his own room, which is also
fine).
I'm telling this because what I'm doing is not about money. It's
about sharing something that seems magical when it works. I'm not
promoting ways to get rich, or anything except fun and peace and joy
and learning. People who don't want fun and peace and joy and
learning don't need to hang around where I am.
Will my kids "be rich"? I don't know, and I don't care. All around
me, at every age level, are people who did not meet their parents'
expectations. There's a depth and breadth of shame, sorrow and
broken families involved in that. The expectations themselves cannot
be undone for any amount of money. I know two adult men whose
parents consider them failures. One is a doctor with several
degrees. One has a PhD. In both cases, the siblings are medical
specialists--surgeons or whatever--and the disappointing sibling is not.
That is what I do not want for my children. I don't want to set them
up to feel that they could be a doctor or have a PhD and still be a
big disappointment to their parents.
Some people look at that and see only "low expectations," or "lowering
the bar."
My kids are already doing things adults around them can't or don't
do. I'm not worried at all. They are whole and thoughtful. Neither
of those two things comes from a curriculum in ANY school.
-----------------------------------------------------
The quote was from this page, which is more about politics than
unschooling, but people meet where they meet.
http://www.learningnet-india.org/lni/data/index.php
There's an international page for this now, too:
http://www.multiworld.org/taleemnet.htm
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
Rosie and I both just got done reading "Tuesdays with Morrie." She wrote
a paper on it for a political science class and we talked about it a
fair amount. So "what is important in life" has been our topic of
conversation for a few days.
It worries my husband that my kids and I aren't focused on them getting
degrees that will get them high-paying jobs. He'd like to have a doctor,
an engineer, and a lawyer or architect or accountant, maybe, in the family.
It is clear to me that pursuing what they love is the key to my kids'
happiness, but I do understand that it is kind of hard to remember that
sometimes because we also want our kids to be financially secure. We
have relatives who are out of work (architects, both of them) and it is
really scary to have a family and lose your home and not have money to
feed your children.
-pam
a paper on it for a political science class and we talked about it a
fair amount. So "what is important in life" has been our topic of
conversation for a few days.
It worries my husband that my kids and I aren't focused on them getting
degrees that will get them high-paying jobs. He'd like to have a doctor,
an engineer, and a lawyer or architect or accountant, maybe, in the family.
It is clear to me that pursuing what they love is the key to my kids'
happiness, but I do understand that it is kind of hard to remember that
sometimes because we also want our kids to be financially secure. We
have relatives who are out of work (architects, both of them) and it is
really scary to have a family and lose your home and not have money to
feed your children.
-pam
On 3/27/2009 7:50 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
> Can education become person and ecological centered instead of just
> economic centered?
>
> Of the several angles from which unschooling can be seen, I think one
> that disturbs people without their even knowing it is the idea that
> some of us might not be caring as much about economics as about
> personal growth. It's about being a whole person rather than aiming
> to be a wealthy person.
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-It is clear to me that pursuing what they love is the key to my kids'
happiness, but I do understand that it is kind of hard to remember that
sometimes because we also want our kids to be financially secure. We
have relatives who are out of work (architects, both of them) and it is
really scary to have a family and lose your home and not have money to
feed your children.-=-
If they hadn't been architects, might they have had more modest homes
and less to lose?
Where is the tipping point on what too much to gather or expect? (I
suppose that question has to do with how one was raised, and one's
desires for travel and expensive shoes and whatnot... too hard a
question.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
happiness, but I do understand that it is kind of hard to remember that
sometimes because we also want our kids to be financially secure. We
have relatives who are out of work (architects, both of them) and it is
really scary to have a family and lose your home and not have money to
feed your children.-=-
If they hadn't been architects, might they have had more modest homes
and less to lose?
Where is the tipping point on what too much to gather or expect? (I
suppose that question has to do with how one was raised, and one's
desires for travel and expensive shoes and whatnot... too hard a
question.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
> Can education become person and ecological centered instead of justChamille has been criticized by online friends for not going to school
> economic centered?
>
> Of the several angles from which unschooling can be seen, I think one
> that disturbs people without their even knowing it is the idea that
> some of us might not be caring as much about economics as about
> personal growth. It's about being a whole person rather than aiming
> to be a wealthy person.
and getting that "necessary" diploma. Some have outright told her that
she will end up working fast food. It's repeated phrases.
When we've talked about this, it's been in the car, so I drive her
through neighborhoods, and point things out, like, "can you tell by
looking, if that person went to school and got a diploma?" "do you think
they are happy?" "do you think they had a choice about what they did in
life?" "was it a free choice?" "do you think anyone working at McDonalds
has a diploma?" "how many people who work there have college degrees?"
"do you think they are happy?" "what do you think that person does for a
living?" "do you think they like it?" "what do you think that person
would have done with their life if they'd get to do it over?" etc etc
etc...
It's fun "what if" question and answer games. Sometimes it gets
outrageous! The idea is that there are literally thousands of people
who all did what they were supposed to do, who aren't happy and wish
they could have a redo button, or a career change but can't because they
have kids to feed and car payments to make. I don't want that for my
kids. I would much rather have them happily doing what they want to do
and accept doing things they need to do simply because it's beneficial.
Behind so many success stories, of people who became successful in life,
are really supportive parents. I like finding those kinds of stories.
The guy who helped create The Sims is like that, can't remember his
name. Chamille told me that Marilyn Manson is like that, and says that
his parents still go see his shows. So, Chamille is looking too, at the
back stories of people and how they got where they are today. I suppose
that there are some people who become successful monetarily by rejecting
everything their parents and everyone around them told them, but that
would be a harder road to go, I'd think, and much less happy!
> I'm telling this because what I'm doing is not about money. It'sSee, this is why I like Sandra! I like that she gives so others can pay
> about sharing something that seems magical when it works. I'm not
> promoting ways to get rich, or anything except fun and peace and joy
> and learning. People who don't want fun and peace and joy and
> learning don't need to hang around where I am.
it forward! There are so many wonderful people on this unschooling list
like that!
Sandra Dodd
-= The idea is that there are literally thousands of people
who all did what they were supposed to do, who aren't happy and wish
they could have a redo button, or a career change but can't because they
have kids to feed and car payments to make.-=-
And student loan payments, or the fear of the medical profession about
letting someone they've trained out into the world.
A relative of someone close to our family is being coddled and
counseled so that she'll finish a medical residency that she has said
she doesn't like. She didn't do wonderfully well in school, she
didn't at all get a desireable residency, and she's tried to kill
herself, and they still insist she should finish the residency and get
all finished. WHY? She owes a ton of money and they need to get it
out of her, maybe? It's unnatural. How many people will be treated
by a doctor who has resisted for years now becoming a doctor?
I wish she had one single person saying "Become a potter," or "Maybe
you could work for a medical texbook publisher" or ANYTHING that would
help her get out of the lifelong trap she feels she's in.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
who all did what they were supposed to do, who aren't happy and wish
they could have a redo button, or a career change but can't because they
have kids to feed and car payments to make.-=-
And student loan payments, or the fear of the medical profession about
letting someone they've trained out into the world.
A relative of someone close to our family is being coddled and
counseled so that she'll finish a medical residency that she has said
she doesn't like. She didn't do wonderfully well in school, she
didn't at all get a desireable residency, and she's tried to kill
herself, and they still insist she should finish the residency and get
all finished. WHY? She owes a ton of money and they need to get it
out of her, maybe? It's unnatural. How many people will be treated
by a doctor who has resisted for years now becoming a doctor?
I wish she had one single person saying "Become a potter," or "Maybe
you could work for a medical texbook publisher" or ANYTHING that would
help her get out of the lifelong trap she feels she's in.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
There was an interesting PRI This American Life program the other week (http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1287) where Adam Davidson wanted to prove to his cousin that dropping out of college was the worst choice he could make in this economic climate. He invited a friend of his who is a professor in economics at Georgetown University who talks about why the choices his cousin made are some of the better choices in this economy. It was very interesting.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, 27 March, 2009 10:40:00 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] "economic centered"
-=-It is clear to me that pursuing what they love is the key to my kids'
happiness, but I do understand that it is kind of hard to remember that
sometimes because we also want our kids to be financially secure. We
have relatives who are out of work (architects, both of them) and it is
really scary to have a family and lose your home and not have money to
feed your children.-=-
If they hadn't been architects, might they have had more modest homes
and less to lose?
Where is the tipping point on what too much to gather or expect? (I
suppose that question has to do with how one was raised, and one's
desires for travel and expensive shoes and whatnot... too hard a
question.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, 27 March, 2009 10:40:00 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] "economic centered"
-=-It is clear to me that pursuing what they love is the key to my kids'
happiness, but I do understand that it is kind of hard to remember that
sometimes because we also want our kids to be financially secure. We
have relatives who are out of work (architects, both of them) and it is
really scary to have a family and lose your home and not have money to
feed your children.-=-
If they hadn't been architects, might they have had more modest homes
and less to lose?
Where is the tipping point on what too much to gather or expect? (I
suppose that question has to do with how one was raised, and one's
desires for travel and expensive shoes and whatnot... too hard a
question.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cherylsjoy
Wow, thanks for this link, Schuyler.
This was very good listening for me,
addressing parts of my psyche I had never really
fully recognized.
- C
This was very good listening for me,
addressing parts of my psyche I had never really
fully recognized.
- C
--- In [email protected], Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
>
> There was an interesting PRI This American Life program the other week (http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1287) where Adam Davidson wanted to prove to his cousin that dropping out of college was the worst choice he could make in this economic climate. He invited a friend of his who is a professor in economics at Georgetown University who talks about why the choices his cousin made are some of the better choices in this economy. It was very interesting.
>
> Schuyler
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Friday, 27 March, 2009 10:40:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] "economic centered"
>
> -=-It is clear to me that pursuing what they love is the key to my kids'
> happiness, but I do understand that it is kind of hard to remember that
> sometimes because we also want our kids to be financially secure. We
> have relatives who are out of work (architects, both of them) and it is
> really scary to have a family and lose your home and not have money to
> feed your children.-=-
>
> If they hadn't been architects, might they have had more modest homes
> and less to lose?
>
> Where is the tipping point on what too much to gather or expect? (I
> suppose that question has to do with how one was raised, and one's
> desires for travel and expensive shoes and whatnot... too hard a
> question.)
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
kelly_sturman
One of my sons said to me, "I really think I want
playing music to always be the focus of my life,
but I don't want to be poor."
And I said to him, "Who is poor? Is Ted poor?
Or is Judy poor?"
Ted is a musician we know, who has a very full
and happy life, and a very small house that
will never grace the pages of Better Homes
& Gardens. Judy is an attorney we know who
has two very large and fancy homes in very
desirable locations, but who mutters to
herself every day as she drives home
from work, "I hate my work... I hate
my work..." and she works 12-14 hours
a day.
Ted may work that many hours, too, but
in another sense, he doesn't work at all.
You know the nursery tale: "Never Worked
and Never Will"? That's Ted.
I don't know if my son will be a musician,
but I hope he will be rich like Ted, not
rich like Judy.
Meanwhile, I remind him that "what do you want
to be when you grow up?" is a question adults ask
kids when those adults aren't sure what to
say to kids, adults who have forgotten
that kids are people, too, not "just kids."
We've got several answers:
"I don't know; I'm busy being 12 right now."
"I don't know; what do *you* want to be when
*you* grow up?" can be said tongue-in-cheek to
any age person... and may actually get them
thinking about it.
"I want to be happy."
Kelly Sturman
playing music to always be the focus of my life,
but I don't want to be poor."
And I said to him, "Who is poor? Is Ted poor?
Or is Judy poor?"
Ted is a musician we know, who has a very full
and happy life, and a very small house that
will never grace the pages of Better Homes
& Gardens. Judy is an attorney we know who
has two very large and fancy homes in very
desirable locations, but who mutters to
herself every day as she drives home
from work, "I hate my work... I hate
my work..." and she works 12-14 hours
a day.
Ted may work that many hours, too, but
in another sense, he doesn't work at all.
You know the nursery tale: "Never Worked
and Never Will"? That's Ted.
I don't know if my son will be a musician,
but I hope he will be rich like Ted, not
rich like Judy.
Meanwhile, I remind him that "what do you want
to be when you grow up?" is a question adults ask
kids when those adults aren't sure what to
say to kids, adults who have forgotten
that kids are people, too, not "just kids."
We've got several answers:
"I don't know; I'm busy being 12 right now."
"I don't know; what do *you* want to be when
*you* grow up?" can be said tongue-in-cheek to
any age person... and may actually get them
thinking about it.
"I want to be happy."
Kelly Sturman
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> Of the several angles from which unschooling can be seen, I think one
> that disturbs people without their even knowing it is the idea that
> some of us might not be caring as much about economics as about
> personal growth. It's about being a whole person rather than aiming
> to be a wealthy person.
>
Pam Sorooshian
On 3/28/2009 7:59 PM, kelly_sturman wrote:
get a conversation started with kids, I have to say that your answers
would shut down that conversation in a pretty rude way. Instead, kids
can use the question to start talking about whatever they wanted to talk
about - say, "I don't know, but I'm really into video games right now."
Poor adults who don't know how to talk to kids - I really really feel
sorry for them. I enjoy talking to kids a lot, teenagers mostly, these
days. I'm sitting here in my living room right now with Roxana and Rosie
and Rosie's boyfriend, Daniel, and her friend Katie. We just had a
conversation about people thinking about what they say before they let
it out of their mouths. Teenagers have conversations about things that
most adults wouldn't spend time talking about. Daniel pointed out that
he tends to listen a lot more when he's at our house, and talk a lot
less, then is usual for him. So we all talked about why that might be,
for a bit. I just really like how they're exploring their own nature -
learning about themselves.
-pam
> Meanwhile, I remind him that "what do you wantAlthough I think you're right that this is a question adults ask just to
> to be when you grow up?" is a question adults ask
> kids when those adults aren't sure what to
> say to kids, adults who have forgotten
> that kids are people, too, not "just kids."
>
> We've got several answers:
>
> "I don't know; I'm busy being 12 right now."
> "I don't know; what do*you* want to be when
> *you* grow up?" can be said tongue-in-cheek to
> any age person... and may actually get them
> thinking about it.
> "I want to be happy."
>
get a conversation started with kids, I have to say that your answers
would shut down that conversation in a pretty rude way. Instead, kids
can use the question to start talking about whatever they wanted to talk
about - say, "I don't know, but I'm really into video games right now."
Poor adults who don't know how to talk to kids - I really really feel
sorry for them. I enjoy talking to kids a lot, teenagers mostly, these
days. I'm sitting here in my living room right now with Roxana and Rosie
and Rosie's boyfriend, Daniel, and her friend Katie. We just had a
conversation about people thinking about what they say before they let
it out of their mouths. Teenagers have conversations about things that
most adults wouldn't spend time talking about. Daniel pointed out that
he tends to listen a lot more when he's at our house, and talk a lot
less, then is usual for him. So we all talked about why that might be,
for a bit. I just really like how they're exploring their own nature -
learning about themselves.
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=-Anyway, we've found that adults who look at young people as students
and talk to them from that perspective aren't really open to talking to
them as people. But perhaps that is because we are shutting them
down-=-
Everything you do is giving your children learning opportunities.
When you respond to other people, they see what you say, and how, and
they'll decide whether they think you were right or wrong. Maybe
they'll wish you had done differently and think less of you in the
future. Maybe they'll accept what you did as a good thing and emulate
it.
-=And then the compliments that are *not* really compliments, like,
"Wow,
your kids are really well-behaved in a restaurant!" said after a meal
in a fancy restaurant, always by some couple who thought their
quiet evening out was going to be disturbed by our family. The response,
"Thanks. You are, too!" fairly rolls off the tongue.-=-
Yikes. That would cancel out the niceness AND the compliment.
Lots of times people told me my kids were nice, were well behaved,
were cute, that they enjoyed eating near us. And my kids are
biological matches for me and my husband. Should I have been
defensive or insulted? What!? And discourage those people from
being talkative and nice to other people in the future?
-=-Because, really, the
presumption that young people are going to be loud and rude and
ill-mannered is pretty offensive. It's prejudice, but most people in
mainstream society don't see it.-=-
It's not "prejudice" if the people have been around loud and rude and
ill-mannered young people. Haven't you? I've been around loud and
rude and ill-mannered drunks, and so I assume most drunks will behave
badly, in groups, in restaurants. That's experience, not prejudice.
Both Kirby and Marty have worked in restaurants and have stories of
the Very Bad Manners of "schoolkids" who are away from their parents
and able to make some choices for the first times. And some kids are
tacky even when they're with their parents.
-=-people who will talk to the children as human beings rather than as
"just kids," -=-
It does seem a little like you've sorted adults into some who aren't
really worth your time and some who are. It's a similar prejudice.
If you're nice, you might inspire them to be nice too. Maybe they
honestly haven't ever had a real conversation with real kids, and
yours might be the first, if you give it a chance.
Cynicism and pessimism are poison to unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and talk to them from that perspective aren't really open to talking to
them as people. But perhaps that is because we are shutting them
down-=-
Everything you do is giving your children learning opportunities.
When you respond to other people, they see what you say, and how, and
they'll decide whether they think you were right or wrong. Maybe
they'll wish you had done differently and think less of you in the
future. Maybe they'll accept what you did as a good thing and emulate
it.
-=And then the compliments that are *not* really compliments, like,
"Wow,
your kids are really well-behaved in a restaurant!" said after a meal
in a fancy restaurant, always by some couple who thought their
quiet evening out was going to be disturbed by our family. The response,
"Thanks. You are, too!" fairly rolls off the tongue.-=-
Yikes. That would cancel out the niceness AND the compliment.
Lots of times people told me my kids were nice, were well behaved,
were cute, that they enjoyed eating near us. And my kids are
biological matches for me and my husband. Should I have been
defensive or insulted? What!? And discourage those people from
being talkative and nice to other people in the future?
-=-Because, really, the
presumption that young people are going to be loud and rude and
ill-mannered is pretty offensive. It's prejudice, but most people in
mainstream society don't see it.-=-
It's not "prejudice" if the people have been around loud and rude and
ill-mannered young people. Haven't you? I've been around loud and
rude and ill-mannered drunks, and so I assume most drunks will behave
badly, in groups, in restaurants. That's experience, not prejudice.
Both Kirby and Marty have worked in restaurants and have stories of
the Very Bad Manners of "schoolkids" who are away from their parents
and able to make some choices for the first times. And some kids are
tacky even when they're with their parents.
-=-people who will talk to the children as human beings rather than as
"just kids," -=-
It does seem a little like you've sorted adults into some who aren't
really worth your time and some who are. It's a similar prejudice.
If you're nice, you might inspire them to be nice too. Maybe they
honestly haven't ever had a real conversation with real kids, and
yours might be the first, if you give it a chance.
Cynicism and pessimism are poison to unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-In truth, I'm not as little and mean as I've come across. I try to
practice breathing before I speak, taking that breath so that I can stop
and think and *respond* instead of reacting. -=-
There are over 2000 members on the list. Surely some hundreds of them
aren't reading. Definitely many hundreds of them ARE reading.
It's best for all of them if every post is as honest and clear and
potentially useful as possible.
-=-Maybe it is REALITY, but I *want* it to be a perception, and an
inaccurate one, at that.-=-
It's best for the readers and for the children of all the readers if
the moms on the list can deal with what IS in the world rather than
what seems like might could've been.
Being mindful involves being accepting of what is, and finding ways to
make it better.
http://sandradodd.com/mindfulparenting
-=-And then the compliment is always followed up by some variation
on the question, "How do you get your kids to behave so well?"
As if they are dogs, and DH and I are the trainers. And how
does one explain the way we live in a succinct way?-=-
The first sentence is sweet, but you've put a negative interpretation
on it. That only makes you an unnecessarily negative person.
If you can't think of something brief that would help them know why
your kids aren't reactionary, then you could just say "thanks," and
smile. I usually say "They don't go to school." That's pretty
succinct and is really at the heart of why they behave better than
some other kids who are out with their family (or out without their
family).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
practice breathing before I speak, taking that breath so that I can stop
and think and *respond* instead of reacting. -=-
There are over 2000 members on the list. Surely some hundreds of them
aren't reading. Definitely many hundreds of them ARE reading.
It's best for all of them if every post is as honest and clear and
potentially useful as possible.
-=-Maybe it is REALITY, but I *want* it to be a perception, and an
inaccurate one, at that.-=-
It's best for the readers and for the children of all the readers if
the moms on the list can deal with what IS in the world rather than
what seems like might could've been.
Being mindful involves being accepting of what is, and finding ways to
make it better.
http://sandradodd.com/mindfulparenting
-=-And then the compliment is always followed up by some variation
on the question, "How do you get your kids to behave so well?"
As if they are dogs, and DH and I are the trainers. And how
does one explain the way we live in a succinct way?-=-
The first sentence is sweet, but you've put a negative interpretation
on it. That only makes you an unnecessarily negative person.
If you can't think of something brief that would help them know why
your kids aren't reactionary, then you could just say "thanks," and
smile. I usually say "They don't go to school." That's pretty
succinct and is really at the heart of why they behave better than
some other kids who are out with their family (or out without their
family).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 3/29/2009 3:03 PM, kelly_sturman wrote:
need for that. And they have a lot of really great conversations with
adults and always have. There are adults who my kids consider their own
good friends, not just "mom's friend."
Mine might say, "I don't know but I do know I love....birds." Or
"...video games..". Or whatever they were interested in at the time. If
that led to a conversation, cool. One time Rosie was into bird watching
and she was standing in the bird book aisle of the book store for a long
time, browsing. There was a man there, too, and after a while he asked
her some lame adult question - "You seem really interested in birds, are
you doing a school report?" <G>
She said, "No, I just like birds." They got started talking - I was
hearing them from down a ways in the same aisle. He was an ornithologist
from the nearby state college.He got over talking down to her and was
visibly impressed and enjoying their conversation within a minute or
two. She was about 10 or so.
Can't expect that most of the time but that is how small talk works
between people, whether it is adults and children or adults and adults.
Sometimes it leads to a great conversation and sometimes it just fades away.
-pam
> But that's a little sad to me, too, that the kids have found that by addingYou didn't see that on my suggestion, right?.My kids would not feel the
> a "...and here's how it's practical and useful" addendum to their expressions
> of their interests, it becomes more palatable to most people.
need for that. And they have a lot of really great conversations with
adults and always have. There are adults who my kids consider their own
good friends, not just "mom's friend."
Mine might say, "I don't know but I do know I love....birds." Or
"...video games..". Or whatever they were interested in at the time. If
that led to a conversation, cool. One time Rosie was into bird watching
and she was standing in the bird book aisle of the book store for a long
time, browsing. There was a man there, too, and after a while he asked
her some lame adult question - "You seem really interested in birds, are
you doing a school report?" <G>
She said, "No, I just like birds." They got started talking - I was
hearing them from down a ways in the same aisle. He was an ornithologist
from the nearby state college.He got over talking down to her and was
visibly impressed and enjoying their conversation within a minute or
two. She was about 10 or so.
Can't expect that most of the time but that is how small talk works
between people, whether it is adults and children or adults and adults.
Sometimes it leads to a great conversation and sometimes it just fades away.
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=-This is something the kids have figured out to do
because they recognizes that other people respond more
to doing an expression of doing something "productive" over
doing something "fun." I wasn't saying it is a good thing.
That's why I called it "sad."-=-
I know you said you're going back to lurker status, and that would
probably be a good idea for a few days, but when we're hinting at you
(and more than hinting) about not seeing things as sad, or not calling
it sad, and you come back and explain why things are not good and
they're sad, you're maintaining your negativity, and spreading it
around to I don't know how many hundreds of e-mail boxes.
Even if you don't bring it to the list, try to mind your own thoughts
and reactions, and make more positive choices and judgments. It will
make a world of difference for you and your kids. A REAL world. A
happy world instead of a sad world. A whole happy life instead of a
sad life.
Find what's GOOD about things. Find what's fun. Find what's joyful
and light and sweet.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
because they recognizes that other people respond more
to doing an expression of doing something "productive" over
doing something "fun." I wasn't saying it is a good thing.
That's why I called it "sad."-=-
I know you said you're going back to lurker status, and that would
probably be a good idea for a few days, but when we're hinting at you
(and more than hinting) about not seeing things as sad, or not calling
it sad, and you come back and explain why things are not good and
they're sad, you're maintaining your negativity, and spreading it
around to I don't know how many hundreds of e-mail boxes.
Even if you don't bring it to the list, try to mind your own thoughts
and reactions, and make more positive choices and judgments. It will
make a world of difference for you and your kids. A REAL world. A
happy world instead of a sad world. A whole happy life instead of a
sad life.
Find what's GOOD about things. Find what's fun. Find what's joyful
and light and sweet.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
>>>> Find what's GOOD about things. Find what's fun. Find what's joyfuland light and sweet. <<<<
I grew up in a family that wasn't into happy and good and light and sweet.
When I left home at 27, I hadn't learned any other way, squirreled away from
the "bad" in the world. I went on to college. Gosh it was hard. Nobody
thought like I did.
A friend called me on it and said I could choose differently. I was driving
and cursing other drivers, and my behavior was scaring her so she said what
she said. It made quite an impression on me. I was shocked but I had a lot
of respect for her opinion and I thanked her.
I got over the negativity by actively disbelieving it whenever it came to
mind. And I've been very glad of it. I know I'm happy whereas before I
really couldn't see that.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 3/29/2009 8:27 PM, kelly_sturman wrote:
grocery store where I do a lot of my shopping for at least 25 years.
(He's worked there and I've shopped there that long.) He's about 45
years old now, I think. In 1999 or so he was helping me take my
groceries out to my car and he saw my car license plate holder that
says, "I break for Muggles." He laughed and laughed. And then he got
serious and said that people were mean to Hermione because she was a
mudblood and people were mean to him because he has Down Syndrome. He'd
listened to both of the first two Harry Potter books that were out by
that time. . He loves his job - he's very friendly and enjoys the social
aspects of talking to customers. But sometimes someone isn't friendly
and he gets his feelings hurt and gets upset. He told me that all the
checkers there are really nice and if he gets a little upset they tell
him to go outside and bring in the carts. He said that even when the
weather is bad, he likes to go out and do that because it helps him calm
down. I always ask him to help me take my groceries out to the car
because I know he likes to do it and because he absolutely always leaves
me feeling uplifted. I love thinking about what good work he is doing -
not the bagging groceries and bringing in carts - he's spreading good
cheer on a daily basis to probably hundreds of people. How many of us
can say that?
So - there is a "bringing in the carts" real life example.
> But, in fact, it*is* perfectly okay if a child grows up toI have a sort of friend - he has Down Syndrome and he's worked for the
> be the guy who brings the carts in from the lot, so long
> as that makes him happy, don't you think? I have a son
> who is looking at jobs along those lines: line cook or
> dishwasher in a restaurant, or perhaps a janitor or a
> groundskeeper. He likes physical labor. He likes
> seeing order come out of chaos. If that makes him
> happy, I am all for it
grocery store where I do a lot of my shopping for at least 25 years.
(He's worked there and I've shopped there that long.) He's about 45
years old now, I think. In 1999 or so he was helping me take my
groceries out to my car and he saw my car license plate holder that
says, "I break for Muggles." He laughed and laughed. And then he got
serious and said that people were mean to Hermione because she was a
mudblood and people were mean to him because he has Down Syndrome. He'd
listened to both of the first two Harry Potter books that were out by
that time. . He loves his job - he's very friendly and enjoys the social
aspects of talking to customers. But sometimes someone isn't friendly
and he gets his feelings hurt and gets upset. He told me that all the
checkers there are really nice and if he gets a little upset they tell
him to go outside and bring in the carts. He said that even when the
weather is bad, he likes to go out and do that because it helps him calm
down. I always ask him to help me take my groceries out to the car
because I know he likes to do it and because he absolutely always leaves
me feeling uplifted. I love thinking about what good work he is doing -
not the bagging groceries and bringing in carts - he's spreading good
cheer on a daily basis to probably hundreds of people. How many of us
can say that?
So - there is a "bringing in the carts" real life example.
> .
>
Melissa Wiley
>This is really moving and beautiful. My 5yo son is mentally retarded and
> I always ask him to help me take my groceries out to the car
> because I know he likes to do it and because he absolutely always leaves
> me feeling uplifted. I love thinking about what good work he is doing -
> not the bagging groceries and bringing in carts - he's spreading good
> cheer on a daily basis to probably hundreds of people. How many of us
> can say that?
>
I've learned a TON from him about taking joy in the moment, in the task at
hand. He downright *loves* doing things that I myself used to consider
boring chores like unloading the dishwasher, weeding the garden, sweeping
the floor. Stevie takes such pleasure in those jobs, both the ones he can do
(like the dishwasher) and the ones I do that he can help with (like whenever
I'm sweeping he has the dustpan at the ready), and that happiness has, over
the years, 'infected' everyone in the house, so that I think all of us take
more pleasure in those kinds of mundane tasks than we once did. I have found
that I truly LOVE weeding the garden. It's peaceful and calming. I used to
find it tedious, maybe because I lumped it into a 'boring chore' category of
activity and entered the task with my mind already made up about it in a
negative way. Stevie doesn't saddle the business (busy-ness) of life with
those assumptions; he takes genuine pleasure in being able to DO. "I do it,
Mom!" is one of his most frequent statements. I'm really grateful for the
things I've learned from him.
And this is a bit of a leap, but it seems to me to be the same sort of
thing--I remember a passage in The Continuum Concept when Jean Liedloff
talks about learning from the example & cheerful attitudes of the Yequana
Indian woman she was living with. There's a bit where she talks about
walking up (or maybe down) a steep hill and feeling the burn in her leg
muscles, and realizing that once upon a time she would have felt negative
and complainy about that, the strain, the tired feeling, but it struck her
now that it was a great thing to feel one's muscles working, performing as
they ought to, and a great thing to be able to climb a hill, and balance,
and have a body able to take her where she wanted to go.
I really appreciate people like Stevie and Liedloff who cause me to notice
things I take for granted and to question my assumptions, and remind me how
much joy there is in the daily tasks of life. (Which are also the reasons
why I read this list, though I hardly ever post.)
Lissa, mom of six in San Diego
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Krisula Moyer
>>And then the compliments that are *not* really compliments, like,"Wow,
your kids are really well-behaved in a restaurant!" said after a meal
in a fancy restaurant, always by some couple who thought their
quiet evening out was going to be disturbed by our family. <<
I was always so grateful when someone noticed and complimented my
kids' behavior in public when they were little. I think it made them
feel good that other people around us noticed and cared that they were
there. It made me feel good and kind of proud too.
Krisula
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I really appreciate people like Stevie and Liedloff who cause me to
notice
things I take for granted and to question my assumptions, and remind
me how
much joy there is in the daily tasks of life. (Which are also the
reasons
why I read this list, though I hardly ever post.)-=-
I'm glad you posted, Lissa.
My middle child is not a child now, he's 20. Marty worked for over a
year at a grocery store. He was a "courtesy clerk." He bagged
groceries, swept floors and brought in carts. He helped people find
things, and washed the glass doors of dairy and freezer cases.
While he was there, he turned 18, and when it was nearly his birthday,
the heads of nearly each department--bakery, produce, dairy, stocking--
said "So Marty... you're nearly 18. Do you want to work with me?"
He was flattered, but he really only wanted to do what he was doing.
He liked the physical exertion. He liked the tetris-skill application
of bagging groceries efficiently (and beyond Tetris and shapes,
because now there were weights and temperatures and chemical dangers
involved). He liked going outside and talking to people and helping
them. I pressed him to apply to be a checker, because they make way
better money, but he said it didn't seem like a fun job.
Now he works at a restaurant. He busses tables. They assumed he
would want to learn the menu and be a waiter, but he doesn't.
Recently a waiter was busted back to bussing tables and he was
frustrated by that, and embarrassed, and he quit. Marty, though, has
found joy in figuring out ways to do his job more artfully and quickly
and quietly and takes pride in all the tables looking beautiful and in
cheering up the waiters and dishwashers and cooks in various ways.
There's a Buddhist concept that's fairly foreign in Western
Civilization, in recent centuries anyway: Right Livelihood.
It has to do with morals and mental health, and living a good life.
It has to do with making a living in such a way that other people are
served and not harmed, and the person acting is not harmed.
From his jobs, Marty gets personal satisfaction, enough money to make
his jeep payments, to entertain his friends, and to put money in
savings (he still lives at home so rent and utilities aren't at stake
yet), and he get exercise, exposure to different kinds of people, the
opportunity to learn about things he didn't even know existed (foods,
equipment, stories people bring in to work). He gets to be a calming
influence and to make his co-worker's lives better.
Perhaps in western civilization, or at least within Christianity, it's
related to a religious life, or "vocation." That's not always being a
priest or a nun or a minister. And all of those things can be done
for better reasons and worse reasons. Unfortunately, our culture
does NOT prize and value those who will take less money to have a more
satisfying life.
It's unfortunate. Someone who can go home from work without worry or
guilt is way ahead of the game. Some people have to pay money to go
to the gym to get exercise, and then buy sleeping pills because
they're thinking about work instead of sleeping, and then go to a
counsellor or psychiatrist because their lives and health are being
ruined by stress. They probably don't have more available income
than Marty has. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
notice
things I take for granted and to question my assumptions, and remind
me how
much joy there is in the daily tasks of life. (Which are also the
reasons
why I read this list, though I hardly ever post.)-=-
I'm glad you posted, Lissa.
My middle child is not a child now, he's 20. Marty worked for over a
year at a grocery store. He was a "courtesy clerk." He bagged
groceries, swept floors and brought in carts. He helped people find
things, and washed the glass doors of dairy and freezer cases.
While he was there, he turned 18, and when it was nearly his birthday,
the heads of nearly each department--bakery, produce, dairy, stocking--
said "So Marty... you're nearly 18. Do you want to work with me?"
He was flattered, but he really only wanted to do what he was doing.
He liked the physical exertion. He liked the tetris-skill application
of bagging groceries efficiently (and beyond Tetris and shapes,
because now there were weights and temperatures and chemical dangers
involved). He liked going outside and talking to people and helping
them. I pressed him to apply to be a checker, because they make way
better money, but he said it didn't seem like a fun job.
Now he works at a restaurant. He busses tables. They assumed he
would want to learn the menu and be a waiter, but he doesn't.
Recently a waiter was busted back to bussing tables and he was
frustrated by that, and embarrassed, and he quit. Marty, though, has
found joy in figuring out ways to do his job more artfully and quickly
and quietly and takes pride in all the tables looking beautiful and in
cheering up the waiters and dishwashers and cooks in various ways.
There's a Buddhist concept that's fairly foreign in Western
Civilization, in recent centuries anyway: Right Livelihood.
It has to do with morals and mental health, and living a good life.
It has to do with making a living in such a way that other people are
served and not harmed, and the person acting is not harmed.
From his jobs, Marty gets personal satisfaction, enough money to make
his jeep payments, to entertain his friends, and to put money in
savings (he still lives at home so rent and utilities aren't at stake
yet), and he get exercise, exposure to different kinds of people, the
opportunity to learn about things he didn't even know existed (foods,
equipment, stories people bring in to work). He gets to be a calming
influence and to make his co-worker's lives better.
Perhaps in western civilization, or at least within Christianity, it's
related to a religious life, or "vocation." That's not always being a
priest or a nun or a minister. And all of those things can be done
for better reasons and worse reasons. Unfortunately, our culture
does NOT prize and value those who will take less money to have a more
satisfying life.
It's unfortunate. Someone who can go home from work without worry or
guilt is way ahead of the game. Some people have to pay money to go
to the gym to get exercise, and then buy sleeping pills because
they're thinking about work instead of sleeping, and then go to a
counsellor or psychiatrist because their lives and health are being
ruined by stress. They probably don't have more available income
than Marty has. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
> I got over the negativity by actively disbelieving it whenever it came toI've gotten the impression on more than one occasion that our backgrounds were similar...
> mind. And I've been very glad of it. I know I'm happy whereas before I
> really couldn't see that.
>
> ~Katherine
>
Were your parents super religious, highly critical of anything other than their conservative beliefs, and geared toward negativity as the first reaction? That was my family, yet at the same time they really cared about me and my sister, and we grew up in relative comfort, not rich, but not lacking. They weren't abusive, just very strict and conservative.
I have a decent relationship with my family now, but if I am around them for too long, I start going back to that place of negativity and critical sarcasm, and it's hard to maintain my happy calm natural "Polyanna" attitude.
~Jenny
Sandra Dodd
-=-I have a decent relationship with my family now, but if I am around
them for too long, I start going back to that place of negativity and
critical sarcasm, and it's hard to maintain my happy calm natural
"Polyanna" attitude.-=-
It's called "joy." <g>
I think it has to do with gratitude.
So far this morning I posted one "Pollyanna" blog post, talked to
Marty, then Kirby called and we had him on speaker phone, but Marty
had to go to work, and then I talked to Keith about the weather
(getting colder) while I cleaned the hot tub (involves water, in cold
and wind).
Then I e-mailed Keith, who's at work on a Monday:
Subject: hot tub is clean and filling
FREEZING out there, but I remembered that under such circumstances,
the warmest place is crouched down inside that hot tub! <g>
Then I checked e-mail and found this post about happy and calm!
Happy and calm is huge. It's health. It's hope. It's life.
Negativity is smallness, dark, and living, creeping hell.
The blog post this morning is here:
http://sandradodd.blogspot.com/2009/03/thats-bad-no-thats-good.html
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
them for too long, I start going back to that place of negativity and
critical sarcasm, and it's hard to maintain my happy calm natural
"Polyanna" attitude.-=-
It's called "joy." <g>
I think it has to do with gratitude.
So far this morning I posted one "Pollyanna" blog post, talked to
Marty, then Kirby called and we had him on speaker phone, but Marty
had to go to work, and then I talked to Keith about the weather
(getting colder) while I cleaned the hot tub (involves water, in cold
and wind).
Then I e-mailed Keith, who's at work on a Monday:
Subject: hot tub is clean and filling
FREEZING out there, but I remembered that under such circumstances,
the warmest place is crouched down inside that hot tub! <g>
Then I checked e-mail and found this post about happy and calm!
Happy and calm is huge. It's health. It's hope. It's life.
Negativity is smallness, dark, and living, creeping hell.
The blog post this morning is here:
http://sandradodd.blogspot.com/2009/03/thats-bad-no-thats-good.html
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
> Then I checked e-mail and found this post about happy and calm!You know, it's funny, I had intended that post to go directly to
>
> Happy and calm is huge. It's health. It's hope. It's life.
>
> Negativity is smallness, dark, and living, creeping hell.
>
Katherine and it ended up going to the list because I forgot to change
to "To:" part before hitting the send button.
It's ok though! It's true what you wrote above! When people live in
the negativity, in the smallness, in the dark, it's often that they
don't even realize they are living there, from where they are it looks
just fine, and bright and cozy, they just haven't gone outside yet where
the sunshine and fresh air is to compare it to!
But, boy, once who walk out into that sunshine, going back to that dark
place is hard, and really obviously a dark place. When I catch myself
getting stuck there, I make an effort to focus on everything that IS
good and wonderful right around me, right now. It's too easy to forget
all the good things and focus on the yuck, especially if it's something
that you grew up with, and it tends to feel natural at first (learned
behavior patterns). My parents always called me the peace maker, so
it's been in my nature to gravitate towards peace and calm and happy,
and even as a kid, I had the ability to shine that onto my family, and
now I get to do that for my own family!
I firmly believe that without it, learning and living can't be to their
full potential! Happy minds are open minds. There is something about
happiness that creates open receptive living!
Schuyler
Simon and I watched the end of Judy Garland's A Star is Born together late last night and had a long conversation about stress and suicide and options and perception. Judy Garland in a movie about surviving a suicide was an interesting thing for all of this to spiral around. It also spurred conversations about alcohol as a depressant and why it was awful for James Mason to keep getting drunk when he was depressed and why he might have kept reaching for the bottle.
At some point Simon said that he has a really good life and he never feels without options. I thought that was a cool thing to hear. Better than A's on a report card or a good parent-teacher conference. His life isn't filled with the intensely fearful moments of knowing that you are going to be in trouble for something that you just did or filled with shame and awfulness that I can remember with such vividness that it can spiral me down into horrible negativity and anger just revisiting them. My dad kept some of the mean notes that I wrote to him and my mom when I was little telling them that they were horribly mean parents and that I felt really bad to be their child. They were probably both funny and sad to him and maybe he wanted to give me perspective if my children felt that way. My children don't feel that way enough to have ever written me a card saying that they do.
We have 5 cats, 4 of whom are the offspring of the remaining 1. 1 of the sibling cats is bullied by all of her siblings and her mom and she got really stressed out. She was peeing all over the house and the furniture. David's first response was to limit her life to that of an outdoor cat, but we have a conservatory that can be closed off from the rest of the house so we set that up for her. During the day everyone of the humans in her life goes and sits with her. She doesn't get bullied nearly as much by her feline family and she gets to eat when she wants as her food is separate from the rest. Her life is better having her own room and her own place to withdraw to. When she does get into the rest of the house she tends to head back to her room fairly quickly. She likes feeling calm and good and safe and not scared and stressed and bad. It has been fascinating to watch (after dealing with the smell of cat urine on so many pieces of furniture) her deal
with this stress in her life.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, 30 March, 2009 6:15:05 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: "economic centered"
-=-I have a decent relationship with my family now, but if I am around
them for too long, I start going back to that place of negativity and
critical sarcasm, and it's hard to maintain my happy calm natural
"Polyanna" attitude.-=-
It's called "joy." <g>
I think it has to do with gratitude.
So far this morning I posted one "Pollyanna" blog post, talked to
Marty, then Kirby called and we had him on speaker phone, but Marty
had to go to work, and then I talked to Keith about the weather
(getting colder) while I cleaned the hot tub (involves water, in cold
and wind).
Then I e-mailed Keith, who's at work on a Monday:
Subject: hot tub is clean and filling
FREEZING out there, but I remembered that under such circumstances,
the warmest place is crouched down inside that hot tub! <g>
Then I checked e-mail and found this post about happy and calm!
Happy and calm is huge. It's health. It's hope. It's life.
Negativity is smallness, dark, and living, creeping hell.
The blog post this morning is here:
http://sandradodd.blogspot.com/2009/03/thats-bad-no-thats-good.html
Sandra
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At some point Simon said that he has a really good life and he never feels without options. I thought that was a cool thing to hear. Better than A's on a report card or a good parent-teacher conference. His life isn't filled with the intensely fearful moments of knowing that you are going to be in trouble for something that you just did or filled with shame and awfulness that I can remember with such vividness that it can spiral me down into horrible negativity and anger just revisiting them. My dad kept some of the mean notes that I wrote to him and my mom when I was little telling them that they were horribly mean parents and that I felt really bad to be their child. They were probably both funny and sad to him and maybe he wanted to give me perspective if my children felt that way. My children don't feel that way enough to have ever written me a card saying that they do.
We have 5 cats, 4 of whom are the offspring of the remaining 1. 1 of the sibling cats is bullied by all of her siblings and her mom and she got really stressed out. She was peeing all over the house and the furniture. David's first response was to limit her life to that of an outdoor cat, but we have a conservatory that can be closed off from the rest of the house so we set that up for her. During the day everyone of the humans in her life goes and sits with her. She doesn't get bullied nearly as much by her feline family and she gets to eat when she wants as her food is separate from the rest. Her life is better having her own room and her own place to withdraw to. When she does get into the rest of the house she tends to head back to her room fairly quickly. She likes feeling calm and good and safe and not scared and stressed and bad. It has been fascinating to watch (after dealing with the smell of cat urine on so many pieces of furniture) her deal
with this stress in her life.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, 30 March, 2009 6:15:05 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: "economic centered"
-=-I have a decent relationship with my family now, but if I am around
them for too long, I start going back to that place of negativity and
critical sarcasm, and it's hard to maintain my happy calm natural
"Polyanna" attitude.-=-
It's called "joy." <g>
I think it has to do with gratitude.
So far this morning I posted one "Pollyanna" blog post, talked to
Marty, then Kirby called and we had him on speaker phone, but Marty
had to go to work, and then I talked to Keith about the weather
(getting colder) while I cleaned the hot tub (involves water, in cold
and wind).
Then I e-mailed Keith, who's at work on a Monday:
Subject: hot tub is clean and filling
FREEZING out there, but I remembered that under such circumstances,
the warmest place is crouched down inside that hot tub! <g>
Then I checked e-mail and found this post about happy and calm!
Happy and calm is huge. It's health. It's hope. It's life.
Negativity is smallness, dark, and living, creeping hell.
The blog post this morning is here:
http://sandradodd.blogspot.com/2009/03/thats-bad-no-thats-good.html
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-My dad kept some of the mean notes that I wrote to him and my mom
when I was little telling them that they were horribly mean parents
and that I felt really bad to be their child. -=-
Did he keep them so he could make you feel bad again when you were
grown?
Does he see them now as an indictment of his parenting decisions?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
when I was little telling them that they were horribly mean parents
and that I felt really bad to be their child. -=-
Did he keep them so he could make you feel bad again when you were
grown?
Does he see them now as an indictment of his parenting decisions?
Sandra
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Schuyler
I don't know why he kept them or why he sent them. He sent them in a bundle of things he had found that he thought I would want the last time he moved. I don't know how much he thinks about himself as a parent, I think that was long ago and far away and any indictment couldn't be made to stick in his mind since the statutory limitations have run out. He told me once he figured I got the short end of the stick as a child, but that I turned out alright so the stick must not have been that short for anyone. I think he's probably right in many ways, but sending me a bundle of things that underscored the crappy points in my childhood doesn't do much but help me wallow.
The cards and letters make me sad for me and for my parents. But they also make me happy to not have any to keep or pass forward to Simon and Linnaea. Not that I would. I figure remembering those moments doesn't make me feel better, why would I want them to remember those feelings if they had them and wrote notes to tell me about them?
Schuyler
________________________________
Did he keep them so he could make you feel bad again when you were
grown?
Does he see them now as an indictment of his parenting decisions?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The cards and letters make me sad for me and for my parents. But they also make me happy to not have any to keep or pass forward to Simon and Linnaea. Not that I would. I figure remembering those moments doesn't make me feel better, why would I want them to remember those feelings if they had them and wrote notes to tell me about them?
Schuyler
________________________________
Did he keep them so he could make you feel bad again when you were
grown?
Does he see them now as an indictment of his parenting decisions?
Sandra
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Krisula Moyer
When I was in college I had a conductor who used to "accuse" me of
having a Pollyanna attitude, like it was a bad thing or somehow an
unintelligent thing. It wasn't until later that I saw the movie on TV
and realized what he might have meant by it. The optimism must have
seemed naive and immature to him. Too bad for him, too bad for his
own kids.
Krisula
having a Pollyanna attitude, like it was a bad thing or somehow an
unintelligent thing. It wasn't until later that I saw the movie on TV
and realized what he might have meant by it. The optimism must have
seemed naive and immature to him. Too bad for him, too bad for his
own kids.
Krisula
On Mar 30, 2009, at 4:28 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> =-I have a decent relationship with my family now, but if I am around
> them for too long, I start going back to that place of negativity and
> critical sarcasm, and it's hard to maintain my happy calm natural
> "Polyanna" attitude.-=-
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 1, 2009, at 3:32 PM, Krisula Moyer wrote:
less saccharine than the movie. You get to see more of her
deliberately working at finding a way to be happy.
Joyce
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> It wasn't until later that I saw the movie on TVYou need to read the book -- or listen to it as we did :-) It's much
> and realized what he might have meant by it. The optimism must have
> seemed naive and immature to him.
less saccharine than the movie. You get to see more of her
deliberately working at finding a way to be happy.
Joyce
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