Anti-intellectualism and unschooling
Robin Bentley
Something came up on the list the other day about anti-intellectualism
among unschoolers. It's been rolling around in my head ever since.
Do you think unschoolers have a bias against intellectualism? Are
"intellectual pursuits" the exclusive property of schools, for instance?
What does it mean to be "anti-intellectual"? Is it the same as "anti-
school?"
And what do you think would be the opposite of "anti-intellectualism"?
Robin B.
among unschoolers. It's been rolling around in my head ever since.
Do you think unschoolers have a bias against intellectualism? Are
"intellectual pursuits" the exclusive property of schools, for instance?
What does it mean to be "anti-intellectual"? Is it the same as "anti-
school?"
And what do you think would be the opposite of "anti-intellectualism"?
Robin B.
Angela Shaw
<And what do you think would be the opposite of "anti-intellectualism"?>
Pro-ignorant? LOL!
Angela
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pro-ignorant? LOL!
Angela
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
> Do you think unschoolers have a bias against intellectualism? Areinstance?
> "intellectual pursuits" the exclusive property of schools, for
Pursuing unschooling is an intellectual thing. Talking and thinking
about education and the way people learn and live, is pretty
intellectual.
This little bit was from Wikipedia (love Wikipedia!):
"Some intellectuals have been vehemently anti-academic; at times
universities and their faculties have been synonymous with
intellectualism, but in other periods and some places the centre of
gravity of intellectual life has been elsewhere."
That would suggest that intellectual pursuits aren't the exclusive
property of schools.
> What does it mean to be "anti-intellectual"? Is it the same as "anti-I don't think so. The way that I see anti-intellectualism is; not being
> school?"
elitist, but also, not allowing for thought expansion. Thought that
deviates from typical life and understanding, is always frowned upon by
those that fear those thoughts. People who don't like thinking outside
the box, who fear change and ideas would be anti-intellectual, and you
find a lot of those folks deeply entrenched in school (and religion).
The way that schools have evolved, it seems more synonymous with
anti-intellectual, than the other way around! The fact that individual
thought is not highly prized, and that common thought is preferred would
suggest that schools are very anti-intellectual!
Pam Sorooshian
On 3/24/2009 12:46 PM, Robin Bentley wrote:
can certainly understand it - we're throwing out the schooling and the
connection between intellectualism and schooling is quite strong.
But, I have one daughter who is VERY intellectual. We just had dinner
together and she spent the entire time giving me a detailed run-down on
Alexander Hamilton's economic plan for the US after the American
revolution. She loves critical analysis of literature. She soaks it up -
her eyes shine - she finds it hard to believe that I might just want to
read a book and be happy with that, not want to delve deeply into it and
consider all the symbolism and connections to world events and so on.
She's a TRUE intellectual - it has nothing to do with schooling at all.
She's a person who savors the use of her intellect to analyze, discuss,
learn about events or materials that are typically the subjects of focus
in a school.
-pam
> Something came up on the list the other day about anti-intellectualismYes, I DO think sometimes unschoolers have an anti-intellectual bias. I
> among unschoolers. It's been rolling around in my head ever since.
>
> Do you think unschoolers have a bias against intellectualism? Are
> "intellectual pursuits" the exclusive property of schools, for instance?
>
> What does it mean to be "anti-intellectual"? Is it the same as "anti-
> school?"
>
> And what do you think would be the opposite of "anti-intellectualism"?
>
>
can certainly understand it - we're throwing out the schooling and the
connection between intellectualism and schooling is quite strong.
But, I have one daughter who is VERY intellectual. We just had dinner
together and she spent the entire time giving me a detailed run-down on
Alexander Hamilton's economic plan for the US after the American
revolution. She loves critical analysis of literature. She soaks it up -
her eyes shine - she finds it hard to believe that I might just want to
read a book and be happy with that, not want to delve deeply into it and
consider all the symbolism and connections to world events and so on.
She's a TRUE intellectual - it has nothing to do with schooling at all.
She's a person who savors the use of her intellect to analyze, discuss,
learn about events or materials that are typically the subjects of focus
in a school.
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=-Do you think unschoolers have a bias against intellectualism?-=-
I have a bias against people who consider themselves intellectuals.
I don't have a bias against someone actually BEING intellectual. <g>
The latter is much rarer than the first.
-=-Are "intellectual pursuits" the exclusive property of schools,
for instance?-=-
No. There are schools with very little intellectual pretension or
actuality. Then there are schools with lots of intellectualism.
There are intellectuals outside of the teaching profession, too.
-=-What does it mean to be "anti-intellectual"?-=-
In some actual instances in which that claim has been made, it's
sometimes because someone came and tried to bypass actually showing
unschooling experience or understanding by flashing a badge at us (a
PhD in education, a couple of times; a master's degree in psychology
or education or whatever other times). Sometimes I was a moderator
and said (as I would have in a public meeting, had I been a
facilitator or organizer of a meeting) shhh..... wait. Get your name
on the list and we'll get to you.
Sometimes people who haven't been allowed to cut the line because they
were "superior" in the discussion thought up an explanation. It
couldn't have been their presumption or rudeness; it must have been my
bias.
I think in twelve or thirteen years it's probably happened half a
dozen times.
-=-Is it the same as "anti-school?"-=-
For some people I suppose it is. My personal bias isn't anti-school.
I really enjoyed school, and I learned TONS in college.
-=And what do you think would be the opposite of "anti-
intellectualism"?-=-
Pro-intellectualism.
Intellectualism-ism. :-)
I think "intellectualism" divides learning into professional,
important learning, and low-class, half-assed, insignificant learning.
There is intellectualism that specializes in obfuscational jargon.
When all the scaffolding is simplified (IF it can be simplified) the
ideas are small and common. There are profound ideas that can be
stated in simple words. I much prefer good ideas in simple language
to long reports intended only for small, critical committees of those
who certify future intellectuals.
I've also seen and read things by philosophers who seemed to have no
personal philosophy, nor to have any idea that any such thing would be
useful or desirable, but they can sure quote dead German guys. It
can be like a game, like quoting Monty Python and Shakespeare for the
sake of intimidating the others in the room who might try to keep up
but someone will eventually concede. And the effect on the outside
world was zip. Nothing. It was intellectual jackoff. No one's life
was made better. No new ideas were spawned.
Same thing happens sometimes with professional journals. Some people
need to publish. They write something that finally squeaks by; the
editors or committee members can't find any reason to reject this
fourth or sixth attempt so they finally let one through. It's kind of
like school, because in a very real way is IS school, at that level.
I used to want to stay in school my whole life--teaching, taking more
classes, maybe being a professor. Having an office in the English
department, and unlimited library privileges. Never being out in the
real world, ever. Heaven! In some such cases there's
intellectualism or self-actualization or both. In some, it's stunted
development, a desire to prove oneself, to keep getting grades and
recognition, to be superior, to bypass social realities by pointing to
a paper in a frame on the wall. I'm anti-that, especially when one
brings it into an unschooling discussion.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have a bias against people who consider themselves intellectuals.
I don't have a bias against someone actually BEING intellectual. <g>
The latter is much rarer than the first.
-=-Are "intellectual pursuits" the exclusive property of schools,
for instance?-=-
No. There are schools with very little intellectual pretension or
actuality. Then there are schools with lots of intellectualism.
There are intellectuals outside of the teaching profession, too.
-=-What does it mean to be "anti-intellectual"?-=-
In some actual instances in which that claim has been made, it's
sometimes because someone came and tried to bypass actually showing
unschooling experience or understanding by flashing a badge at us (a
PhD in education, a couple of times; a master's degree in psychology
or education or whatever other times). Sometimes I was a moderator
and said (as I would have in a public meeting, had I been a
facilitator or organizer of a meeting) shhh..... wait. Get your name
on the list and we'll get to you.
Sometimes people who haven't been allowed to cut the line because they
were "superior" in the discussion thought up an explanation. It
couldn't have been their presumption or rudeness; it must have been my
bias.
I think in twelve or thirteen years it's probably happened half a
dozen times.
-=-Is it the same as "anti-school?"-=-
For some people I suppose it is. My personal bias isn't anti-school.
I really enjoyed school, and I learned TONS in college.
-=And what do you think would be the opposite of "anti-
intellectualism"?-=-
Pro-intellectualism.
Intellectualism-ism. :-)
I think "intellectualism" divides learning into professional,
important learning, and low-class, half-assed, insignificant learning.
There is intellectualism that specializes in obfuscational jargon.
When all the scaffolding is simplified (IF it can be simplified) the
ideas are small and common. There are profound ideas that can be
stated in simple words. I much prefer good ideas in simple language
to long reports intended only for small, critical committees of those
who certify future intellectuals.
I've also seen and read things by philosophers who seemed to have no
personal philosophy, nor to have any idea that any such thing would be
useful or desirable, but they can sure quote dead German guys. It
can be like a game, like quoting Monty Python and Shakespeare for the
sake of intimidating the others in the room who might try to keep up
but someone will eventually concede. And the effect on the outside
world was zip. Nothing. It was intellectual jackoff. No one's life
was made better. No new ideas were spawned.
Same thing happens sometimes with professional journals. Some people
need to publish. They write something that finally squeaks by; the
editors or committee members can't find any reason to reject this
fourth or sixth attempt so they finally let one through. It's kind of
like school, because in a very real way is IS school, at that level.
I used to want to stay in school my whole life--teaching, taking more
classes, maybe being a professor. Having an office in the English
department, and unlimited library privileges. Never being out in the
real world, ever. Heaven! In some such cases there's
intellectualism or self-actualization or both. In some, it's stunted
development, a desire to prove oneself, to keep getting grades and
recognition, to be superior, to bypass social realities by pointing to
a paper in a frame on the wall. I'm anti-that, especially when one
brings it into an unschooling discussion.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
>>>> What does it mean to be "anti-intellectual"? <<<<Sometimes it means fear of anything that smacks of thinking. Maybe that's
it ... most of the time. Probably because thinking has somehow been made
the domain of school for people who fear thinking.
(I'm trying to come up with other instances that wouldn't somehow involve
fear and I haven't come up with any but there may be many... Oh! wait).
Avoiding any show of emotion at all times with everyone appears
anti-intellectual to me (as well as counter-productive to interpersonal
relationships). Actually I take that back, since it's possible to be
intellectual while also being weak in the skills for relating
interpersonally. And it may or may not involve fear.
Also one can be conditioned somewhat not to think, by systematically giving
negative feedback to thinking that counters a way of life. Like religious
doctrine, political ideals, cultural modes in school and at work, and things
of that nature. Taken to extremes, I think of these as frequently
anti-intellectual and almost always the desire to promote the dominant line
of thought is an expression of fear.
Here's what I would not call "anti-intellectual" --- fishing for response
by throwing out an idea that isn't conclusive. I was kinda asking about
that when I put in a recent question about whether or not to correct our
children, or when or if it's appropriate and so forth. I got some feedback
(to my idea fishing for responses) the same way that Karl gets feedback when
testing his idea in the little "lagoon" of whatever audience he has (me and
his dad usually). The responses to my post were helpful to my further
thinking about correction.
Put an inconclusive thought in a question format (or leave it as a
statement-- doesn't matter), and you've got much of what learning is about,
what making experiments is about (that's a hypothesis) not just what school
and tests and grades are about. This behavior is *not* what I would call
anti-intellectual. It's a natural part of learning.
Schools discourage this kind of thinking, opting instead to give grades for
coming up with answers that match the test key. The very thing I want to
avoid doing as a parent unschooling my child.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Avoiding any show of emotion at all times with everyone appears
anti-intellectual to me (as well as counter-productive to interpersonal
relationships). -=-
I have a friend who considers himself entirely intellectual and he has
said that he doesn't like arguing with me because I use emotional
arguments.
He doesn't like arguing with me because he loses, but I had the
interpersonal skills not to slam him to the mat with that one, at that
moment.
He likes to think that logic is everything; numbers are the only proof
of any point.
There's someone newer in my life with those traits, but he doesn't
mind arguing with me. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
anti-intellectual to me (as well as counter-productive to interpersonal
relationships). -=-
I have a friend who considers himself entirely intellectual and he has
said that he doesn't like arguing with me because I use emotional
arguments.
He doesn't like arguing with me because he loses, but I had the
interpersonal skills not to slam him to the mat with that one, at that
moment.
He likes to think that logic is everything; numbers are the only proof
of any point.
There's someone newer in my life with those traits, but he doesn't
mind arguing with me. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
>Perhaps people remove anything that carries a whiff of academics, so
>
> Yes, I DO think sometimes unschoolers have an anti-intellectual
> bias. I
> can certainly understand it - we're throwing out the schooling and the
> connection between intellectualism and schooling is quite strong.
they can deschool. Whether it means they throw it out forever is
another thing.
>I don't see a thing wrong with this. Some people just have an
>
> But, I have one daughter who is VERY intellectual. We just had dinner
> together and she spent the entire time giving me a detailed run-down
> on
> Alexander Hamilton's economic plan for the US after the American
> revolution. She loves critical analysis of literature. She soaks it
> up -
> her eyes shine - she finds it hard to believe that I might just want
> to
> read a book and be happy with that, not want to delve deeply into it
> and
> consider all the symbolism and connections to world events and so on.
> She's a TRUE intellectual - it has nothing to do with schooling at
> all.
> She's a person who savors the use of her intellect to analyze,
> discuss,
> learn about events or materials that are typically the subjects of
> focus
> in a school.
intellectual bent. That's cool. But did you direct her down that path
or was it her thing and you supported it?
If someone is not an intellectual, should we be focussing on
remediating the situation? I don't think so. For me, I value
intellectualism, but I wouldn't try to force that on anyone in my
family. Each person has their own strengths and interests.
My original questions came out of the sense I got that intellectualism
was more valid than an interest in gaming, for instance. That somehow
wanting to learn algebra is preferable to wanting to reach the level
cap.
I suppose the opposite side of this coin is the idea that reaching the
level cap is preferable to learning algebra. Maybe that's what the
comment was about - unschoolers valuing non-academic things over
academic subjects.
What one can learn from reaching the level cap is another discussion
altogether!
Robin B.
Sandra Dodd
-=-I suppose the opposite side of this coin is the idea that reaching
the
level cap is preferable to learning algebra. Maybe that's what the
comment was about - unschoolers valuing non-academic things over
academic subjects.-=-
I think this is one thing that makes unschooling look anti-
intellectual, but it's not the only thing. It seems there are several
places where the anti-intellectual charge is made.
I've been big on Gardner's Theory of Multiple Intelligences, and that
might be the crowbar that moves "intellectualism" out of its
traditional position of superiority.
http://sandradodd.com/intelligences
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the
level cap is preferable to learning algebra. Maybe that's what the
comment was about - unschoolers valuing non-academic things over
academic subjects.-=-
I think this is one thing that makes unschooling look anti-
intellectual, but it's not the only thing. It seems there are several
places where the anti-intellectual charge is made.
I've been big on Gardner's Theory of Multiple Intelligences, and that
might be the crowbar that moves "intellectualism" out of its
traditional position of superiority.
http://sandradodd.com/intelligences
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Danielle Conger
Robin Bentley wrote:
wasn't meant to privilege any interest or passion over another.
What I observed was an effort to shut down lots of potential interests
because they looked too "schooly." That's what I was labeling
"anti-intellectualism" on the part of some unschoolers.
I have a math phobia, so that's something I've worked hard not to pass
onto my kids. Part of that has been an effort to bring lots of numbers
play into their lives because language play comes naturally to me, but
numbers, not so much. There's one game called Countdown--a version of an
old game where you roll the dice, do the math, and be the first to flip
up wooden numbered paddles. I was talking about it once at a local
unschoolers group where I used to live and got told that bringing that
game into the house was like bringing curriculum into the house and that
it wasn't "real" unschooling, which would trust kids to come to numbers
naturally in the world around them and to ask if they wanted something
more than that in the same way they might ask to take guitar or piano,
for instance.
That, to me, was an example of anti-intellectualism that I was talking
about--an active attempt on the parents' part to keep "schooly" things
out of their kids lives. And I've seen it other times and in other ways
over the years on the lists as well.
I think it very much could be a part of the deschooling process on the
part of the parents, but I think sometimes it's worse than that--I think
sometimes the parents themselves have stopped valuing thinking and
inquisitiveness about topics that are perceived as the property of
academics because they've been damaged by school and have yet to heal. I
think that damage can shut down the kids' intellectual curiosity in
potentially damaging ways as well.
I know people who won't even look at games marked "educational" or
wouldn't even consider bringing things that look educational or could be
construed as curricula material into the house. That's a shame, imo, and
no better than a parent who wouldn't have a tv or allow video games into
the house.
Jim brought home a periodic table of the elements magnet that he got
from a vendor at a conference. He stuck it on our fridge, and the kids
eventually asked about it. They loved hearing about it, still do. Now,
we have a big poster of it, along with a different kind of one for
geology and minerals. We hang up all those cool posters that National
Geographic sends because they're cool and interesting to ponder once in
a while.
These are the kinds of things that might get sidelong looks from certain
unschoolers as not being very unschooly materials to have around. I
don't value these materials any more than the huge bucket of Polly
Pockets or Bratz or Scooby Doo movies or Gamecube games, or all the
other things that we've also invested in over the years. I don't value
Em doing Algebra more than I value her playing Webkinz or drawing or
reading graphic novels. I think it's awesome that she loves to do ALL of
that, and I see each and every one of those things as learning materials
in my kids' world.
--
~~Danielle
Emily (11), Julia (10), Sam (8)
http://www.organiclearning.blogspot.com
>Well, since I was the one who made the comment, I can clarify that it
> My original questions came out of the sense I got that intellectualism
> was more valid than an interest in gaming, for instance. That somehow
> wanting to learn algebra is preferable to wanting to reach the level
> cap.
>
> I suppose the opposite side of this coin is the idea that reaching the
> level cap is preferable to learning algebra. Maybe that's what the
> comment was about - unschoolers valuing non-academic things over
> academic subjects.
>
> What one can learn from reaching the level cap is another discussion
> altogether!
>
wasn't meant to privilege any interest or passion over another.
What I observed was an effort to shut down lots of potential interests
because they looked too "schooly." That's what I was labeling
"anti-intellectualism" on the part of some unschoolers.
I have a math phobia, so that's something I've worked hard not to pass
onto my kids. Part of that has been an effort to bring lots of numbers
play into their lives because language play comes naturally to me, but
numbers, not so much. There's one game called Countdown--a version of an
old game where you roll the dice, do the math, and be the first to flip
up wooden numbered paddles. I was talking about it once at a local
unschoolers group where I used to live and got told that bringing that
game into the house was like bringing curriculum into the house and that
it wasn't "real" unschooling, which would trust kids to come to numbers
naturally in the world around them and to ask if they wanted something
more than that in the same way they might ask to take guitar or piano,
for instance.
That, to me, was an example of anti-intellectualism that I was talking
about--an active attempt on the parents' part to keep "schooly" things
out of their kids lives. And I've seen it other times and in other ways
over the years on the lists as well.
I think it very much could be a part of the deschooling process on the
part of the parents, but I think sometimes it's worse than that--I think
sometimes the parents themselves have stopped valuing thinking and
inquisitiveness about topics that are perceived as the property of
academics because they've been damaged by school and have yet to heal. I
think that damage can shut down the kids' intellectual curiosity in
potentially damaging ways as well.
I know people who won't even look at games marked "educational" or
wouldn't even consider bringing things that look educational or could be
construed as curricula material into the house. That's a shame, imo, and
no better than a parent who wouldn't have a tv or allow video games into
the house.
Jim brought home a periodic table of the elements magnet that he got
from a vendor at a conference. He stuck it on our fridge, and the kids
eventually asked about it. They loved hearing about it, still do. Now,
we have a big poster of it, along with a different kind of one for
geology and minerals. We hang up all those cool posters that National
Geographic sends because they're cool and interesting to ponder once in
a while.
These are the kinds of things that might get sidelong looks from certain
unschoolers as not being very unschooly materials to have around. I
don't value these materials any more than the huge bucket of Polly
Pockets or Bratz or Scooby Doo movies or Gamecube games, or all the
other things that we've also invested in over the years. I don't value
Em doing Algebra more than I value her playing Webkinz or drawing or
reading graphic novels. I think it's awesome that she loves to do ALL of
that, and I see each and every one of those things as learning materials
in my kids' world.
--
~~Danielle
Emily (11), Julia (10), Sam (8)
http://www.organiclearning.blogspot.com
Sandra Dodd
-=-I have a math phobia, so that's something I've worked hard not to
pass
onto my kids. Part of that has been an effort to bring lots of numbers
play into their lives because language play comes naturally to me, but
numbers, not so much. There's one game called Countdown--a version of an
old game where you roll the dice, do the math, and be the first to flip
up wooden numbered paddles. I was talking about it once at a local
unschoolers group where I used to live and got told that bringing that
game into the house was like bringing curriculum into the house and that
it wasn't "real" unschooling, which would trust kids to come to numbers
naturally in the world around them and to ask if they wanted something
more than that in the same way they might ask to take guitar or piano,
for instance.-=-
For people whose kids were in school, it's probably good not to do
things like that in the first few months. My kids were never in
school and they had lots of "math games." Because I didn't "require"
or push them as more important than other games they had, they played
them just as happily as anything else. I didn't have them with the
attitude that they would learn math *that* way, just that if they
found math in fun ways and not classroom ways they might not have the
aversion I grew to have.
The difference between what I was doing and what some other parents
might have done with the same set of materials was subtle. I wasn't
praising more for my kids playing those than for them playing games
based more on words or history or stamina or aim or balance.
I didn't consider Treasure Mountain, Treasure Math Storm, Bazaar and
rummy to be "intellectual."
-=-Well, since I was the one who made the comment, I can clarify that it
wasn't meant to privilege any interest or passion over another.-=-
There were people making the comment in unschooling discussions before
you had kids, so you can't explain all of their prejudices and
shouldn't need to try.
-=-That, to me, was an example of anti-intellectualism that I was
talking
about--an active attempt on the parents' part to keep "schooly" things
out of their kids lives. -=-
It's crucial to deschooling. Even with families whose kids never
went to school, the parents themselves need to deschool, and if the
parents keep schooly/academic things there with the idea that they're
crucial, the parents haven't deschooled themselves. If the parents
can be confident that learning can and does happen in the absence of
academic things, then the re-addition of those things (in my case from
leaving them out but not "assigning" or glorifying them, which I
called strewing when people asked me how I had gotten my kids
interested in those things, or in any things)... the re-addition of
academic resources won't seem schooly.
There is schooly and there are academic things, and they're not the
same thing, but the difference has to do with attitude, presentation
and expectation.
-=-I think it very much could be a part of the deschooling process on
the
part of the parents, but I think sometimes it's worse than that--I think
sometimes the parents themselves have stopped valuing thinking and
inquisitiveness about topics that are perceived as the property of
academics because they've been damaged by school and have yet to heal. I
think that damage can shut down the kids' intellectual curiosity in
potentially damaging ways as well.-=-
When I was teaching, my students were 12 to 15 years old. I love that
age. Many teachers don't. They either want kids new to school, or
high school kids they can threaten with the lack of graduation. I
liked the mid-kids because they appreciated interesting teaching (some
of them), and they were hormonally suited for cognitive blossoms of
various sorts. Their thoughts and perceptions were unfolding in big
ways. Some of them had parents who despised schools and teachers.
Some of those kids were sunk, because if they did poorly in school
their parents were angry and if they did well in school (or came to
LIKE school), the parents belittled them for that too.
Are there unschooling parents who hate school and were damaged by it?
There are many. Are there people who are unschooling because they
liked school and supported it and then were shocked by horrible damage
inflicted on their children? Thousands of them.
-=-I know people who won't even look at games marked "educational" or
wouldn't even consider bringing things that look educational or could be
construed as curricula material into the house. That's a shame, imo, and
no better than a parent who wouldn't have a tv or allow video games into
the house.-=-
Although I've always had both kinds of things, I don't agree with your
closing point there. A TV doesn't tempt a parent to relax into
schoolish expectations. Video games don't remind ANY parent of their
school days, even if the video game is Zoombinis. Once the parents
see the learning from those things, the other things won't be
dangerous. If the parents don't come to see it, the other materials
will be a foot in the school.
We have a periodic chart of the elements. It lives in the bathroom
part time. At the moment, there are laminated summaries of
terminology and principles from psychology and anthropology, because
Holly's thinking about studying dreams and memory, and Marty's
girlfriend is an anthropology student at the university, studying
genetics. Holly's boyfriend has a genetics degree. I figured some
of that terminology might be good to have lying around. They're not
the only reading material in the bathroom. Sometimes they seem to
have been pulled out, but I'm reading them more than anyone, probably,
because I studied anthropology and psychology in the 70's, and they've
both moved much more toward biology than they were then. I'm
"behind"! <bwg>
I think calling elementary-level academic materials "intellectual"
isn't a good use of the term "intellectual."
It might help to go back to the basic "learning." Will people limit
the avenues for learning for 18 whole years?
Not if they want to be good unschoolers.
Will they limit them early on?
Maybe, some of them, if they want to become good unschoolers.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pass
onto my kids. Part of that has been an effort to bring lots of numbers
play into their lives because language play comes naturally to me, but
numbers, not so much. There's one game called Countdown--a version of an
old game where you roll the dice, do the math, and be the first to flip
up wooden numbered paddles. I was talking about it once at a local
unschoolers group where I used to live and got told that bringing that
game into the house was like bringing curriculum into the house and that
it wasn't "real" unschooling, which would trust kids to come to numbers
naturally in the world around them and to ask if they wanted something
more than that in the same way they might ask to take guitar or piano,
for instance.-=-
For people whose kids were in school, it's probably good not to do
things like that in the first few months. My kids were never in
school and they had lots of "math games." Because I didn't "require"
or push them as more important than other games they had, they played
them just as happily as anything else. I didn't have them with the
attitude that they would learn math *that* way, just that if they
found math in fun ways and not classroom ways they might not have the
aversion I grew to have.
The difference between what I was doing and what some other parents
might have done with the same set of materials was subtle. I wasn't
praising more for my kids playing those than for them playing games
based more on words or history or stamina or aim or balance.
I didn't consider Treasure Mountain, Treasure Math Storm, Bazaar and
rummy to be "intellectual."
-=-Well, since I was the one who made the comment, I can clarify that it
wasn't meant to privilege any interest or passion over another.-=-
There were people making the comment in unschooling discussions before
you had kids, so you can't explain all of their prejudices and
shouldn't need to try.
-=-That, to me, was an example of anti-intellectualism that I was
talking
about--an active attempt on the parents' part to keep "schooly" things
out of their kids lives. -=-
It's crucial to deschooling. Even with families whose kids never
went to school, the parents themselves need to deschool, and if the
parents keep schooly/academic things there with the idea that they're
crucial, the parents haven't deschooled themselves. If the parents
can be confident that learning can and does happen in the absence of
academic things, then the re-addition of those things (in my case from
leaving them out but not "assigning" or glorifying them, which I
called strewing when people asked me how I had gotten my kids
interested in those things, or in any things)... the re-addition of
academic resources won't seem schooly.
There is schooly and there are academic things, and they're not the
same thing, but the difference has to do with attitude, presentation
and expectation.
-=-I think it very much could be a part of the deschooling process on
the
part of the parents, but I think sometimes it's worse than that--I think
sometimes the parents themselves have stopped valuing thinking and
inquisitiveness about topics that are perceived as the property of
academics because they've been damaged by school and have yet to heal. I
think that damage can shut down the kids' intellectual curiosity in
potentially damaging ways as well.-=-
When I was teaching, my students were 12 to 15 years old. I love that
age. Many teachers don't. They either want kids new to school, or
high school kids they can threaten with the lack of graduation. I
liked the mid-kids because they appreciated interesting teaching (some
of them), and they were hormonally suited for cognitive blossoms of
various sorts. Their thoughts and perceptions were unfolding in big
ways. Some of them had parents who despised schools and teachers.
Some of those kids were sunk, because if they did poorly in school
their parents were angry and if they did well in school (or came to
LIKE school), the parents belittled them for that too.
Are there unschooling parents who hate school and were damaged by it?
There are many. Are there people who are unschooling because they
liked school and supported it and then were shocked by horrible damage
inflicted on their children? Thousands of them.
-=-I know people who won't even look at games marked "educational" or
wouldn't even consider bringing things that look educational or could be
construed as curricula material into the house. That's a shame, imo, and
no better than a parent who wouldn't have a tv or allow video games into
the house.-=-
Although I've always had both kinds of things, I don't agree with your
closing point there. A TV doesn't tempt a parent to relax into
schoolish expectations. Video games don't remind ANY parent of their
school days, even if the video game is Zoombinis. Once the parents
see the learning from those things, the other things won't be
dangerous. If the parents don't come to see it, the other materials
will be a foot in the school.
We have a periodic chart of the elements. It lives in the bathroom
part time. At the moment, there are laminated summaries of
terminology and principles from psychology and anthropology, because
Holly's thinking about studying dreams and memory, and Marty's
girlfriend is an anthropology student at the university, studying
genetics. Holly's boyfriend has a genetics degree. I figured some
of that terminology might be good to have lying around. They're not
the only reading material in the bathroom. Sometimes they seem to
have been pulled out, but I'm reading them more than anyone, probably,
because I studied anthropology and psychology in the 70's, and they've
both moved much more toward biology than they were then. I'm
"behind"! <bwg>
I think calling elementary-level academic materials "intellectual"
isn't a good use of the term "intellectual."
It might help to go back to the basic "learning." Will people limit
the avenues for learning for 18 whole years?
Not if they want to be good unschoolers.
Will they limit them early on?
Maybe, some of them, if they want to become good unschoolers.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
I went back to the original post because I thought of another angle,
and I see that it was about a single recent incident and not about the
past many years. Sorry I misunderstood that.
-=-Something came up on the list the other day about anti-
intellectualism
among unschoolers. It's been rolling around in my head ever since.-=-
I thought it was a more general question about the regular charge of
anti-intellectualism.
So I want to tell some of the other stories I remember.
One person got in a huff because she was advised to read critically,
to think objectively. She assured the list/forum (I think it was at
unschooling.com's message board or list) that critical thinking was
something they taught in school, and she was surprised to have
unschoolers recommend it.
Fairly recently someone said (where I was and behind my back somewhere
else in a discussion) that I probably had a house devoid of books,
which inspired me to videotape my office and the library. That didn't
include the books on TV and movies on the shelf in the den, or the
long shelf of sewing books in the sewing room, or the four shelves of
cookbooks in the kitchen.
There have been people over the years who tried to say that IF a
family would have a child in a music or theatre class or a martial
arts or equestrian class, they were hypocritical if they objected to
reading or math classes. I've suggested to some of them that they
should read the story "Pigs is Pigs," but y'know... that's used in
language arts and logic classes, so what kind of hypocrite am I!?
<g> Also, the attitude toward the child becomes the main focus of
that story when unschoolers read it, which can't be helped.
Another possible aspect of the anti-intellectual gem is related to
conferences. There is an undertone of "I don't go to hear the
speakers" related to conferences. Sometimes people take pride in the
fact (whether it's a fact or not, it has been stated) that they go to
conferences just to see the other families, and they don't go to the
presentations. They might run funshops but they won't go to hear
speakers.
That, in part, spawned 'non-coms' which were speaker-free.
Some people seem to take pride in not being on discussion lists or
reading much online. They come, "Discover" unschooling, go home and
do it oddly and inefficiently, and then come back and complain that we
didn't explain it right. Am I anti- or pro-intellectual by suggesting
that they should've stuck around and kept reading something every day
and participated in lists? Not everyone enjoys the flowing word as I
do.
I think it helps in ALL those cases to think more in terms of clarity,
understanding and learning than of any larger or secondary words. We
don't need "academics"; we need learning. We don't need "intellect";
we need thought and the consideration of ideas.
Sandra
construed as curricula material into the house. That's a shame, imo, and
no better than a parent who wouldn't have a tv or allow video games into
the house. <<<<
To me it seems that the parent's attitude surrounding any type of
material, schooly, semi schooly or non schooly, can make strewing
material harmful or beneficial to children. Some people could bring
in anime or comics and convey a schooling emphasis through that
material because they are worried that the kids won't or can't learn
without direct guidance. (One example is the guy who agreed to let
his teen son drop school in order to watch and critique films with the
dad, films which the dad chose ... entertainment a.k.a. education).
I think strewing materials ---and making sure to leave up to the
children the preference for any information those materials contain---
makes it possible for them to learn in freedom from anything.
That means having a variety of materials, some vaguely schooly, some
not traditionally considered schooly, and yes, some actually marketed
as educational, which the internet is full of.
I think part of deschooling is realizing that filtering the
information is not what you want nor is it really feasible once the
kids are on the internet. Karl plays tons of schooly games on
NickJr.com. Whose choice would it be to label such things schooly or
bar him from it? He likes NickJr (although he doesn't play there near
as often as he used to). All that "good jobbing, good clapping, good
clicking" (ugh) doesn't seem to faze him. He doesn't take it to heart
as he would were it to come from me or Brian.
Karl gets the choice of how long he plays and which links he clicks
and how much in depth he gets into any of those schooly sites. The
same goes for youtube, where if a video is boring or weird or in some
way not interesting to him, he clicks a toolbar button which I set up
for the purpose of him getting back to his youtube favorites page, a
home base sorta.
There's nothing harmful about repeating a sequence in a movie or an
educational computer game as many times as a child likes ... because
when a child is done with a repetition, it's easy to go on to
something else if the option is available. For instance, in Karl's
latest DS game aquistion, Yoshi's Island at the moment, he skips right
over coin collection (one repetition) in favor of getting goals and
perfecting moves (other kinds of repetition).
~Katherine
academics. My sister homeschools, and my parents approve highly of all
the classical education and intellectual stuff that my sister forces
onto her kids. They all know that I don't do that. It's not that I
don't value "classical" education or knowledge, it's that I don't find
value in forcing that onto my kids.
My daughter met a kid that she had a lot in common with. My mom
recognized right away that this kid was homeschooled and highly
intellectual. She said something about how Chamille and this kid might
get along for a while, but that because Chamille isn't very
intellectual, the relationship probably wouldn't last because the other
kid might get bored talking about "trivial" stuff.
Chamille isn't what someone would call intellectual. On the surface,
she's all about her artistic expression. What I find really interesting
though, about people like my daughter, in general, when you get to know
them, they are often much more perseptive about the world than their
"intellectual" counterparts. That perception, I've come to understand,
is a very deep inward intellectual analysis of everything. It doesn't
look like book knowledge though, so it often doesn't count in the eyes
of people like my mother who really truly believes that book learning is
the be all end all.
Chamille has a lot of brilliant insights to things that a lot of people
miss. She's not going to spout it off though, and a lot of people that
meet her really don't "get" her because she's not transparent with her
thoughts and knowledge.
However, I don't consider her an anti-intellectual. I think she really
does value knowledge, she just doesn't show it.
I grew up in a home that was very intellectual. Family dinners were
often platforms for political and philisophical discourse with strong
opinions argued logically. I grew to have a love/hate relationship with
that and rejected it outright for many years, very reactionary! I don't
want that for my kids. I really really want them to value knowledge,
happily value knowledge and the acquisition of it. I honestly don't
think it's something that can be forced, otherwise I wouldn't be
unschooling.
My sister's kids are forced. They do value intellectual pursuits.
Mostly they are happy. They like the positive adult feedback from those
pursuits. One day, one of them will have a differing opinion than mom,
dad, or their grandparents. When that day comes, there will be trouble.
academic things, then ... the readdition of academic resources won't seem
schooly. <<<<
I think it's helpful to figure out how to breathe easy without having
anything remotely academic around to bolster your confidence in the learning
your children are going through just by living. Until at least the parent
who is usually with the kids can more clearly see the learning in
everything, having educational materials per se could easily prevent being
able to see it.
And I think the worst thing is to miss the joy in living with your kids, and
not even considering the learning, as wonderful as it is.
I don't mean this as anti-intellectual .... I'm saying it as pro-relational
and pro-family. Without joy, it's harder for me to see the learning. I
guess my deschooling difficulties lie elsewhere at the moment, and I want to
put more focus on joy right now. They had that song about "love and
marriage go together like a horse and carriage" and sub the words "love and
marriage" with "learning and joy" it goes a long way to being able to see
both.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think the worst thing is to miss the joy in living with your kids. It's
good to put aside for a while all considerations about the learning, as
wonderful as it is.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rooms not to mention outbuildings, with neglected treasures of all types
including books.)
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
went to school after all!"
It's hard to argue against that without seeming to insult someone's
intelligence.
;)
~Katherine
and I see that it was about a single recent incident and not about the
past many years. Sorry I misunderstood that.
-=-Something came up on the list the other day about anti-
intellectualism
among unschoolers. It's been rolling around in my head ever since.-=-
I thought it was a more general question about the regular charge of
anti-intellectualism.
So I want to tell some of the other stories I remember.
One person got in a huff because she was advised to read critically,
to think objectively. She assured the list/forum (I think it was at
unschooling.com's message board or list) that critical thinking was
something they taught in school, and she was surprised to have
unschoolers recommend it.
Fairly recently someone said (where I was and behind my back somewhere
else in a discussion) that I probably had a house devoid of books,
which inspired me to videotape my office and the library. That didn't
include the books on TV and movies on the shelf in the den, or the
long shelf of sewing books in the sewing room, or the four shelves of
cookbooks in the kitchen.
There have been people over the years who tried to say that IF a
family would have a child in a music or theatre class or a martial
arts or equestrian class, they were hypocritical if they objected to
reading or math classes. I've suggested to some of them that they
should read the story "Pigs is Pigs," but y'know... that's used in
language arts and logic classes, so what kind of hypocrite am I!?
<g> Also, the attitude toward the child becomes the main focus of
that story when unschoolers read it, which can't be helped.
Another possible aspect of the anti-intellectual gem is related to
conferences. There is an undertone of "I don't go to hear the
speakers" related to conferences. Sometimes people take pride in the
fact (whether it's a fact or not, it has been stated) that they go to
conferences just to see the other families, and they don't go to the
presentations. They might run funshops but they won't go to hear
speakers.
That, in part, spawned 'non-coms' which were speaker-free.
Some people seem to take pride in not being on discussion lists or
reading much online. They come, "Discover" unschooling, go home and
do it oddly and inefficiently, and then come back and complain that we
didn't explain it right. Am I anti- or pro-intellectual by suggesting
that they should've stuck around and kept reading something every day
and participated in lists? Not everyone enjoys the flowing word as I
do.
I think it helps in ALL those cases to think more in terms of clarity,
understanding and learning than of any larger or secondary words. We
don't need "academics"; we need learning. We don't need "intellect";
we need thought and the consideration of ideas.
Sandra
k
>>>> I know people who won't even look at games marked "educational" orwouldn't even consider bringing things that look educational or could be
construed as curricula material into the house. That's a shame, imo, and
no better than a parent who wouldn't have a tv or allow video games into
the house. <<<<
To me it seems that the parent's attitude surrounding any type of
material, schooly, semi schooly or non schooly, can make strewing
material harmful or beneficial to children. Some people could bring
in anime or comics and convey a schooling emphasis through that
material because they are worried that the kids won't or can't learn
without direct guidance. (One example is the guy who agreed to let
his teen son drop school in order to watch and critique films with the
dad, films which the dad chose ... entertainment a.k.a. education).
I think strewing materials ---and making sure to leave up to the
children the preference for any information those materials contain---
makes it possible for them to learn in freedom from anything.
That means having a variety of materials, some vaguely schooly, some
not traditionally considered schooly, and yes, some actually marketed
as educational, which the internet is full of.
I think part of deschooling is realizing that filtering the
information is not what you want nor is it really feasible once the
kids are on the internet. Karl plays tons of schooly games on
NickJr.com. Whose choice would it be to label such things schooly or
bar him from it? He likes NickJr (although he doesn't play there near
as often as he used to). All that "good jobbing, good clapping, good
clicking" (ugh) doesn't seem to faze him. He doesn't take it to heart
as he would were it to come from me or Brian.
Karl gets the choice of how long he plays and which links he clicks
and how much in depth he gets into any of those schooly sites. The
same goes for youtube, where if a video is boring or weird or in some
way not interesting to him, he clicks a toolbar button which I set up
for the purpose of him getting back to his youtube favorites page, a
home base sorta.
There's nothing harmful about repeating a sequence in a movie or an
educational computer game as many times as a child likes ... because
when a child is done with a repetition, it's easy to go on to
something else if the option is available. For instance, in Karl's
latest DS game aquistion, Yoshi's Island at the moment, he skips right
over coin collection (one repetition) in favor of getting goals and
perfecting moves (other kinds of repetition).
~Katherine
Jenny C
>I
> Yes, I DO think sometimes unschoolers have an anti-intellectual bias.
> can certainly understand it - we're throwing out the schooling and theMy parents are strong intellectuals. They associate it with school and
> connection between intellectualism and schooling is quite strong.
>
academics. My sister homeschools, and my parents approve highly of all
the classical education and intellectual stuff that my sister forces
onto her kids. They all know that I don't do that. It's not that I
don't value "classical" education or knowledge, it's that I don't find
value in forcing that onto my kids.
My daughter met a kid that she had a lot in common with. My mom
recognized right away that this kid was homeschooled and highly
intellectual. She said something about how Chamille and this kid might
get along for a while, but that because Chamille isn't very
intellectual, the relationship probably wouldn't last because the other
kid might get bored talking about "trivial" stuff.
Chamille isn't what someone would call intellectual. On the surface,
she's all about her artistic expression. What I find really interesting
though, about people like my daughter, in general, when you get to know
them, they are often much more perseptive about the world than their
"intellectual" counterparts. That perception, I've come to understand,
is a very deep inward intellectual analysis of everything. It doesn't
look like book knowledge though, so it often doesn't count in the eyes
of people like my mother who really truly believes that book learning is
the be all end all.
Chamille has a lot of brilliant insights to things that a lot of people
miss. She's not going to spout it off though, and a lot of people that
meet her really don't "get" her because she's not transparent with her
thoughts and knowledge.
However, I don't consider her an anti-intellectual. I think she really
does value knowledge, she just doesn't show it.
I grew up in a home that was very intellectual. Family dinners were
often platforms for political and philisophical discourse with strong
opinions argued logically. I grew to have a love/hate relationship with
that and rejected it outright for many years, very reactionary! I don't
want that for my kids. I really really want them to value knowledge,
happily value knowledge and the acquisition of it. I honestly don't
think it's something that can be forced, otherwise I wouldn't be
unschooling.
My sister's kids are forced. They do value intellectual pursuits.
Mostly they are happy. They like the positive adult feedback from those
pursuits. One day, one of them will have a differing opinion than mom,
dad, or their grandparents. When that day comes, there will be trouble.
Pam Sorooshian
On 3/26/2009 5:41 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
Intellectual seems like it implies a life focused on things happening in
the intellect, as opposed to focused on physical activity or emotional
or spiritual stuff. I don't consider Rosie or Roya to be "intellectuals"
because Rosie's focus is on physical activity (karate, soccer, American
Sign Language, dance) and Roya's is on art, crafts, and organizing
people doing activities together. Roya has a college degree and is
moving toward grad school - her goal is to get a clinical counseling
degree in art therapy. VERY academic, but not intellectual. Rosie is
taking college courses - considering pursuing a degree in ASL, again,
academic but not intellectual. Roxana, on the other hand, wants to learn
and analyze and critique ideas - ideas from literature and drama and
history, mostly. That's what she loves - it is what makes her eyes light
up. It is intellectual activity whether or not it involves academic
activity. For years she was an intellectual who had no involvement in
academia. She'd read and write and discuss (mostly online with other
intellectuals) all kinds of what I consider "high-brow" materials.Not
for grades, not for credit. For fun.She'd like to be able to continue to
do this with other intellectuals and (hopefully) make a living at it -
that happens in universities, mostly, so that's probably where she's
headed.
Maybe I'm making too fine a distinction between these words, but it has
been useful for me to be aware of a difference between academic and
intellectual in supporting my own children's interests.
-pam
> I think calling elementary-level academic materials "intellectual"I was separating "academic" from "intellectual" in my response.
> isn't a good use of the term "intellectual."
>
Intellectual seems like it implies a life focused on things happening in
the intellect, as opposed to focused on physical activity or emotional
or spiritual stuff. I don't consider Rosie or Roya to be "intellectuals"
because Rosie's focus is on physical activity (karate, soccer, American
Sign Language, dance) and Roya's is on art, crafts, and organizing
people doing activities together. Roya has a college degree and is
moving toward grad school - her goal is to get a clinical counseling
degree in art therapy. VERY academic, but not intellectual. Rosie is
taking college courses - considering pursuing a degree in ASL, again,
academic but not intellectual. Roxana, on the other hand, wants to learn
and analyze and critique ideas - ideas from literature and drama and
history, mostly. That's what she loves - it is what makes her eyes light
up. It is intellectual activity whether or not it involves academic
activity. For years she was an intellectual who had no involvement in
academia. She'd read and write and discuss (mostly online with other
intellectuals) all kinds of what I consider "high-brow" materials.Not
for grades, not for credit. For fun.She'd like to be able to continue to
do this with other intellectuals and (hopefully) make a living at it -
that happens in universities, mostly, so that's probably where she's
headed.
Maybe I'm making too fine a distinction between these words, but it has
been useful for me to be aware of a difference between academic and
intellectual in supporting my own children's interests.
-pam
Pam Sorooshian
On 3/26/2009 6:14 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
-pam
> Fairly recently someone said (where I was and behind my back somewhereOr the bathrooms.
> else in a discussion) that I probably had a house devoid of books,
> which inspired me to videotape my office and the library. That didn't
> include the books on TV and movies on the shelf in the den, or the
> long shelf of sewing books in the sewing room, or the four shelves of
> cookbooks in the kitchen.
>
-pam
k
>>>> If the parents can be confident that learning can and does happen inthe absence of
academic things, then ... the readdition of academic resources won't seem
schooly. <<<<
I think it's helpful to figure out how to breathe easy without having
anything remotely academic around to bolster your confidence in the learning
your children are going through just by living. Until at least the parent
who is usually with the kids can more clearly see the learning in
everything, having educational materials per se could easily prevent being
able to see it.
And I think the worst thing is to miss the joy in living with your kids, and
not even considering the learning, as wonderful as it is.
I don't mean this as anti-intellectual .... I'm saying it as pro-relational
and pro-family. Without joy, it's harder for me to see the learning. I
guess my deschooling difficulties lie elsewhere at the moment, and I want to
put more focus on joy right now. They had that song about "love and
marriage go together like a horse and carriage" and sub the words "love and
marriage" with "learning and joy" it goes a long way to being able to see
both.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
>>> and not even considering the learning, as wonderful as it is. <<<<What I meant to say is:
I think the worst thing is to miss the joy in living with your kids. It's
good to put aside for a while all considerations about the learning, as
wonderful as it is.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
>>>> Or the bathrooms. <<<<But no books in the attic or the basement? (I have storage, extra no name
rooms not to mention outbuildings, with neglected treasures of all types
including books.)
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Teresa
I think too that those of us that started out trying to educate our kids at home didn't start with a natural learning philosophy, but developed it over time. As we realized that the children we were trying to pour information into were built with their own passions, ideas, and ways of learning. Some of us even had children who were violently apposed to forced learning and rejected suggested learning. So short of having world war two re-enactments around the diningroom table we chose to listen to the kids.
Makes for a larger non-intellectual subject base as the highly academic minded are often sponges for information and do well with a planned curric. If your control group is skewed in the first place.... Also many people in school play at being intellectuals in order to win in the game of school. I'm not sure many studies take that into consideration.
And some of us parents are still recooping from our time in the institutions and can't bare to be/encourage being too intellectual with the kids. In conversation with non unschoolers we often take a position of anti-forced learning which is counter intuitive to intellectualism for many people. Who believe you need to chain them to their desks in order for them to have a hope of becoming as smart, well versed, knowledgeable, or well educated as they are because that is what was done to them. Seems like a huge unnecessary risk for many who choose to participate in these debates as they see the results in themselves and feel that proves the method works. They don't realize that a large portion of those kids in school who just didn't cope well or get anywhere in life were as intellegent or more so, but do to not being able to fit in the school mold were deemed failures (usually in early elementary) only because they couldn't squeeze themselves into
the rigid space provided.
Teresa
level cap is preferable to learning algebra. Maybe that's what the
comment was about - unschoolers valuing non-academic things over
academic subjects.-=-
I think this is one thing that makes unschooling look anti-
intellectual, but it's not the only thing. It seems there are several
places where the anti-intellectual charge is made.
I've been big on Gardner's Theory of Multiple Intelligences, and that
might be the crowbar that moves "intellectualism" out of its
traditional position of superiority.
http://sandradodd. com/intelligence s
Sandra
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Makes for a larger non-intellectual subject base as the highly academic minded are often sponges for information and do well with a planned curric. If your control group is skewed in the first place.... Also many people in school play at being intellectuals in order to win in the game of school. I'm not sure many studies take that into consideration.
And some of us parents are still recooping from our time in the institutions and can't bare to be/encourage being too intellectual with the kids. In conversation with non unschoolers we often take a position of anti-forced learning which is counter intuitive to intellectualism for many people. Who believe you need to chain them to their desks in order for them to have a hope of becoming as smart, well versed, knowledgeable, or well educated as they are because that is what was done to them. Seems like a huge unnecessary risk for many who choose to participate in these debates as they see the results in themselves and feel that proves the method works. They don't realize that a large portion of those kids in school who just didn't cope well or get anywhere in life were as intellegent or more so, but do to not being able to fit in the school mold were deemed failures (usually in early elementary) only because they couldn't squeeze themselves into
the rigid space provided.
Teresa
>>>-=-I suppose the opposite side of this coin is the idea that reachingthe
level cap is preferable to learning algebra. Maybe that's what the
comment was about - unschoolers valuing non-academic things over
academic subjects.-=-
I think this is one thing that makes unschooling look anti-
intellectual, but it's not the only thing. It seems there are several
places where the anti-intellectual charge is made.
I've been big on Gardner's Theory of Multiple Intelligences, and that
might be the crowbar that moves "intellectualism" out of its
traditional position of superiority.
http://sandradodd. com/intelligence s
Sandra
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Danielle Conger
Sandra Dodd wrote:
a pendulum swing in the other direction that doesn't seem to come back
to a bigger, broader approach to living and learning.
and try to convey because sometimes there is a sense that unschooling
means waiting around for kids to ask for things instead of bringing neat
and interesting things into their lives. I think conversations on
strewing get at that need, and yes, I've seen those conversations get
kinda divisive in the terms I'm talking about.
on the parents' part so as not to pass along any of the baggage--in the
same way I wouldn't want to pass on my math phobia or fear of spiders,
for instance.
If parents are so ingrained by schools to think that teaching is the
only way to learn and that subjects must be separated out and covered
regularly, and they can't possibly help themselves, then removing all
overtly educational stuff from the kids' lives is one tool to get
parents to see the learning that goes on in absolutely everything the
kids do. And sure, it can be an expedient tool, but I personally think
that recommendation should come with some caveats--along the lines,
maybe, Kelly Lovejoy's three stages article.
who could be offering bigger and broader opportunities for their kids,
but who don't and then offer up unschooling as an excuse.
and could easily provide a parent with a foot in the school door an easy
way to feel good about video games. I know lots of parents who will only
allow these kinds of learning games and none of the others. So while
they may not remind us of our school days, they can serve to separate
the world into school and not-school.
materials." I think intellect is developmental--whatever challenges
one's intellect at whatever age is an intellectual pursuit for that
person. Mazes, video games, etc. can all be intellectually challenging
as can analyzing a tv show, movie, or advertisement. Intellect doesn't
always look academic.
*in·tel·lect* noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French or Latin; Middle French,
from Latin intellectus, from intellegere to understand — more at intelligent
Date: 14th century
1 a: the power of knowing as distinguished from the power to feel and to
will : the capacity for knowledge b: the capacity for rational or
intelligent thought especially when highly developed
2: a person with great intellectual powers
*in·tel·lec·tu·al* adjective
Date: 14th century
1 a: of or relating to the intellect or its use b: developed or chiefly
guided by the intellect rather than by emotion or experience : rational
c: requiring use of the intellect <intellectual games>
2 a: given to study, reflection, and speculation b: engaged in activity
requiring the creative use of the intellect <intellectual playwrights>
--
~~Danielle
Emily (11), Julia (10), Sam (8)
http://www.organiclearning.blogspot.com
>Absolutely, deschooling is important. I think sometimes, though, there's
>
>
> For people whose kids were in school, it's probably good not to do
> things like that in the first few months. My kids were never in
> school and they had lots of "math games." Because I didn't "require"
> or push them as more important than other games they had, they played
> them just as happily as anything else. I didn't have them with the
> attitude that they would learn math *that* way, just that if they
> found math in fun ways and not classroom ways they might not have the
> aversion I grew to have.
>
a pendulum swing in the other direction that doesn't seem to come back
to a bigger, broader approach to living and learning.
>And these are all important distinctions, and important to talk about
>
> The difference between what I was doing and what some other parents
> might have done with the same set of materials was subtle. I wasn't
> praising more for my kids playing those than for them playing games
> based more on words or history or stamina or aim or balance.
>
and try to convey because sometimes there is a sense that unschooling
means waiting around for kids to ask for things instead of bringing neat
and interesting things into their lives. I think conversations on
strewing get at that need, and yes, I've seen those conversations get
kinda divisive in the terms I'm talking about.
>Agreed, but I think that work is better done in a behind-the-scenes way
>
> It's crucial to deschooling. Even with families whose kids never
> went to school, the parents themselves need to deschool, and if the
> parents keep schooly/academic things there with the idea that they're
> crucial, the parents haven't deschooled themselves.
>
on the parents' part so as not to pass along any of the baggage--in the
same way I wouldn't want to pass on my math phobia or fear of spiders,
for instance.
If parents are so ingrained by schools to think that teaching is the
only way to learn and that subjects must be separated out and covered
regularly, and they can't possibly help themselves, then removing all
overtly educational stuff from the kids' lives is one tool to get
parents to see the learning that goes on in absolutely everything the
kids do. And sure, it can be an expedient tool, but I personally think
that recommendation should come with some caveats--along the lines,
maybe, Kelly Lovejoy's three stages article.
>I think tv can tempt a parent into laziness. I think there are parents
>
> Although I've always had both kinds of things, I don't agree with your
> closing point there. A TV doesn't tempt a parent to relax into
> schoolish expectations.
>
who could be offering bigger and broader opportunities for their kids,
but who don't and then offer up unschooling as an excuse.
>There are computer games like Clue Finders that are overtly educational
> Video games don't remind ANY parent of their
> school days, even if the video game is Zoombinis. Once the parents
> see the learning from those things, the other things won't be
> dangerous. If the parents don't come to see it, the other materials
> will be a foot in the school.
>
and could easily provide a parent with a foot in the school door an easy
way to feel good about video games. I know lots of parents who will only
allow these kinds of learning games and none of the others. So while
they may not remind us of our school days, they can serve to separate
the world into school and not-school.
>I'm not sure what you're meaning in terms of "elementary-level academic
>
> I think calling elementary-level academic materials "intellectual"
> isn't a good use of the term "intellectual."
>
materials." I think intellect is developmental--whatever challenges
one's intellect at whatever age is an intellectual pursuit for that
person. Mazes, video games, etc. can all be intellectually challenging
as can analyzing a tv show, movie, or advertisement. Intellect doesn't
always look academic.
*in·tel·lect* noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French or Latin; Middle French,
from Latin intellectus, from intellegere to understand — more at intelligent
Date: 14th century
1 a: the power of knowing as distinguished from the power to feel and to
will : the capacity for knowledge b: the capacity for rational or
intelligent thought especially when highly developed
2: a person with great intellectual powers
*in·tel·lec·tu·al* adjective
Date: 14th century
1 a: of or relating to the intellect or its use b: developed or chiefly
guided by the intellect rather than by emotion or experience : rational
c: requiring use of the intellect <intellectual games>
2 a: given to study, reflection, and speculation b: engaged in activity
requiring the creative use of the intellect <intellectual playwrights>
--
~~Danielle
Emily (11), Julia (10), Sam (8)
http://www.organiclearning.blogspot.com
Pam Sorooshian
On 3/26/2009 10:28 AM, Danielle Conger wrote:
academic in that first post - that's why I made the same point as you're
making in the above paragraph. Intellectual is not the same as
academic/schooly.
Danielle***"What I observed was an effort to shut down lots of potential
interests because they looked too "schooly." That's what I was labeling
"anti-intellectualism" on the part of some unschoolers.***
I also think there is sometimes an overly anti-intellectual tone to some
unschooling discussions. I don't think it is that people are
discouraging their children from using their intellects to think about
tv shows or video games, though. I think it is that intellectual
pursuits are viewed suspiciously because they are so strongly
associated with academia. Maybe it would be more clear to say that
anything that seems "scholarly" is viewed with suspicion and negativity
by some unschoolers.
Seems like a case of throwing out the baby with the bathwater - is that
what you're getting at? Yes, we are tossing out the schooling - the
assignments, the lesson plans, the grading, the testing, the assessing,
the coercion, and all those other trappings of school. For some people
that means throwing out anything that is associated in their minds with
school and that can include anything that is intentionally designed to
support learning, especially if it is to support learning something that
is conventionally taught in schools. The "Countdown" game is a good
example. It is okay for kids to play Magic, the Gathering, because that
was designed just for fun and it is irrelevant that kids who play it
also become really good at mentally adding and subtracting. But
Countdown is touted as helping kids learn math, so that is an
unschooling no-no?
At a conference, Scott Noelle told a story of finding a cool old school
desk and having it sitting in his house and then being embarrassed by it
when unschooling friends saw it there. My kids didn't even get why he'd
be embarrassed - took me a second to catch on. He thought that those
unschoolers would think there was something wrong with having an old
school desk in his house because it was associated with school.
So, true or not, there are people who are getting the impression that
unschoolers go overboard in rejecting absolutely anything (even
furniture) that has any association with school.
If that is what you're talking about, Danielle, then, yes, I think it is
good to discuss it.
I remember some people at a park day seeming a little horrified because
they'd read that Sandra's daughter had been doing workbooks. (In the
bathtub, as I recall.) WORKBOOKS? Sandra Dodd's kids were allowed to
have workbooks? What? They just couldn't imagine it. How could it be
unschooling if a kid was doing a workbook? I don't remember what led to
Holly's workbook in the tub, but Rosie loved to get workbooks that were
related to whatever she was into at the time. When she was into Disney
princesses, she'd want Disney princess coloring books, paper dolls,
paint-with-water books, and, yes, workbooks. They were puzzle books to
her. Neither of my other kids liked workbooks, but Rosie always liked
that kind of page-by-page kind of thing. She's 18 and she still buys
coloring books - the Bellerophon and Dover ones - and she'll sit and
color and watch tv or talk, for hours.
Sometimes people don't get past those "how to get started" unschooling
conversations. They take the sound bites away with them, but not the
deeper and bigger principles. So, that's part of the problem. Another
part is that there are people who hate school so much that they really
do want to avoid having anything in their lives that even remotely
reminds them of school. Another thing is that some people really ARE
anti-intellectual, not just anti-school. There always has been some
suspicion and distrust of more scholarly people by those who aren't like
that. And, there are those who take things to an extreme for other reasons.
I don't know what we can do about most of that - just keep being clear
in our own writing and speaking the best we can. I am more aware of this
whole tendency now and I'm more aware of what I might say that might be
taken away and used as justification for it.
I have the same feeling about the no bedtimes, no chores, no limits --
all that stuff. People also carry that away and repeat sound bites and
take it to extremes that I, at least, never intended. So I'm a lot more
careful and clear about how I talk about that stuff, these days. I can't
do much about how other people talk or behave, so I've focused on myself
and doing what I can to dispel such attitudes or misperceptions.
-pam
> I'm not sure what you're meaning in terms of "elementary-level academicIt seemed like you were at first using intellectual pretty much to mean
> materials." I think intellect is developmental--whatever challenges
> one's intellect at whatever age is an intellectual pursuit for that
> person. Mazes, video games, etc. can all be intellectually challenging
> as can analyzing a tv show, movie, or advertisement. Intellect doesn't
> always look academic.
>
academic in that first post - that's why I made the same point as you're
making in the above paragraph. Intellectual is not the same as
academic/schooly.
Danielle***"What I observed was an effort to shut down lots of potential
interests because they looked too "schooly." That's what I was labeling
"anti-intellectualism" on the part of some unschoolers.***
I also think there is sometimes an overly anti-intellectual tone to some
unschooling discussions. I don't think it is that people are
discouraging their children from using their intellects to think about
tv shows or video games, though. I think it is that intellectual
pursuits are viewed suspiciously because they are so strongly
associated with academia. Maybe it would be more clear to say that
anything that seems "scholarly" is viewed with suspicion and negativity
by some unschoolers.
Seems like a case of throwing out the baby with the bathwater - is that
what you're getting at? Yes, we are tossing out the schooling - the
assignments, the lesson plans, the grading, the testing, the assessing,
the coercion, and all those other trappings of school. For some people
that means throwing out anything that is associated in their minds with
school and that can include anything that is intentionally designed to
support learning, especially if it is to support learning something that
is conventionally taught in schools. The "Countdown" game is a good
example. It is okay for kids to play Magic, the Gathering, because that
was designed just for fun and it is irrelevant that kids who play it
also become really good at mentally adding and subtracting. But
Countdown is touted as helping kids learn math, so that is an
unschooling no-no?
At a conference, Scott Noelle told a story of finding a cool old school
desk and having it sitting in his house and then being embarrassed by it
when unschooling friends saw it there. My kids didn't even get why he'd
be embarrassed - took me a second to catch on. He thought that those
unschoolers would think there was something wrong with having an old
school desk in his house because it was associated with school.
So, true or not, there are people who are getting the impression that
unschoolers go overboard in rejecting absolutely anything (even
furniture) that has any association with school.
If that is what you're talking about, Danielle, then, yes, I think it is
good to discuss it.
I remember some people at a park day seeming a little horrified because
they'd read that Sandra's daughter had been doing workbooks. (In the
bathtub, as I recall.) WORKBOOKS? Sandra Dodd's kids were allowed to
have workbooks? What? They just couldn't imagine it. How could it be
unschooling if a kid was doing a workbook? I don't remember what led to
Holly's workbook in the tub, but Rosie loved to get workbooks that were
related to whatever she was into at the time. When she was into Disney
princesses, she'd want Disney princess coloring books, paper dolls,
paint-with-water books, and, yes, workbooks. They were puzzle books to
her. Neither of my other kids liked workbooks, but Rosie always liked
that kind of page-by-page kind of thing. She's 18 and she still buys
coloring books - the Bellerophon and Dover ones - and she'll sit and
color and watch tv or talk, for hours.
Sometimes people don't get past those "how to get started" unschooling
conversations. They take the sound bites away with them, but not the
deeper and bigger principles. So, that's part of the problem. Another
part is that there are people who hate school so much that they really
do want to avoid having anything in their lives that even remotely
reminds them of school. Another thing is that some people really ARE
anti-intellectual, not just anti-school. There always has been some
suspicion and distrust of more scholarly people by those who aren't like
that. And, there are those who take things to an extreme for other reasons.
I don't know what we can do about most of that - just keep being clear
in our own writing and speaking the best we can. I am more aware of this
whole tendency now and I'm more aware of what I might say that might be
taken away and used as justification for it.
I have the same feeling about the no bedtimes, no chores, no limits --
all that stuff. People also carry that away and repeat sound bites and
take it to extremes that I, at least, never intended. So I'm a lot more
careful and clear about how I talk about that stuff, these days. I can't
do much about how other people talk or behave, so I've focused on myself
and doing what I can to dispel such attitudes or misperceptions.
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-= I think intellect is developmental--whatever challenges
one's intellect at whatever age is an intellectual pursuit for that
person. -=-
Then that's too big a word to use in ANY unschooling discussion, and
that can make me "anti-intellectual" if you want.
To talk about "intellectual pursuit" when "learning" would work is
polluting the clarity and simplicity of talking about natural learning.
Sandra
one's intellect at whatever age is an intellectual pursuit for that
person. -=-
Then that's too big a word to use in ANY unschooling discussion, and
that can make me "anti-intellectual" if you want.
To talk about "intellectual pursuit" when "learning" would work is
polluting the clarity and simplicity of talking about natural learning.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-But no books in the attic or the basement? (I have storage, extra
no name
rooms not to mention outbuildings, with neglected treasures of all types
including books.)-=-
I don't have an attic or a basement, but there are antique books
stored in some boxes in the sunroom, and old encyclopedias and lots of
magazines in the metal shed, and there are books in Keith's office,
but those are mostly his books (except my hymnals, 25 or so, which are
there, and some other music books of mine, but I usually think of
music as being in filing cabinets--three drawers of which are music-
related).
If I had an attic, I'm sure I'd have books there. If I had a
basement, I think not because my friends in Salt Lake City had a
basement flood and they lost books galore.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
no name
rooms not to mention outbuildings, with neglected treasures of all types
including books.)-=-
I don't have an attic or a basement, but there are antique books
stored in some boxes in the sunroom, and old encyclopedias and lots of
magazines in the metal shed, and there are books in Keith's office,
but those are mostly his books (except my hymnals, 25 or so, which are
there, and some other music books of mine, but I usually think of
music as being in filing cabinets--three drawers of which are music-
related).
If I had an attic, I'm sure I'd have books there. If I had a
basement, I think not because my friends in Salt Lake City had a
basement flood and they lost books galore.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-= Some of us even had children who were violently apposed to forced
learning and rejected suggested learning. -=-
So smart kids, you mean. <g>
-= Also many people in school play at being intellectuals in order to
win in the game of school. I'm not sure many studies take that into
consideration.-=-
Are we even talking about "studies"? I'm totally anti intellectual-
posing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
learning and rejected suggested learning. -=-
So smart kids, you mean. <g>
-= Also many people in school play at being intellectuals in order to
win in the game of school. I'm not sure many studies take that into
consideration.-=-
Are we even talking about "studies"? I'm totally anti intellectual-
posing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-She said something about how Chamille and this kid might
get along for a while, but that because Chamille isn't very
intellectual, the relationship probably wouldn't last because the other
kid might get bored talking about "trivial" stuff.-=-
OH RIGHT, while the "intellectual" kids are talking about SAT scores
and grade point averages and other weighty, real-life things.
-=What I find really interesting
though, about people like my daughter, in general, when you get to know
them, they are often much more perseptive about the world than their
"intellectual" counterparts. -=-
Yes.
What Holly knows about people she knows from direct observation,
questioning, hearing their tales of woe and frustration and joy,
watching movies, listening to song lyrics, reading novels and
interviews.
Some people take what they "know" from textbooks making summary
generalizations.
What kids are doing who learn directly about the world is far and
beyond what is learned from books, if the kids are both of fairly
comparable analytical ability (and I really don't want to get into
those kinds of comparisons, because people learn what they learn, and
understand what they understand, and neither unschooling nor school is
going to change the fact that there are differences).
Balance.
http://sandradodd.com/balance
If there are unschoolers who are under the impression that unschooling
needs to involve the absence of those things sold at teacher supply
stores, they did NOT get that impression from my site nor from any
list I've been active on.
If people are getting that impressing from lists that broke off from
this one or unschooling discussion, perhaps lists shouldn't have
broken off, or the organizers of those lists should have stayed active
on the other lists as well. I'm thinking of five lists, every one of
which has had people come back here or to UD later and say "But I
thought..."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
get along for a while, but that because Chamille isn't very
intellectual, the relationship probably wouldn't last because the other
kid might get bored talking about "trivial" stuff.-=-
OH RIGHT, while the "intellectual" kids are talking about SAT scores
and grade point averages and other weighty, real-life things.
-=What I find really interesting
though, about people like my daughter, in general, when you get to know
them, they are often much more perseptive about the world than their
"intellectual" counterparts. -=-
Yes.
What Holly knows about people she knows from direct observation,
questioning, hearing their tales of woe and frustration and joy,
watching movies, listening to song lyrics, reading novels and
interviews.
Some people take what they "know" from textbooks making summary
generalizations.
What kids are doing who learn directly about the world is far and
beyond what is learned from books, if the kids are both of fairly
comparable analytical ability (and I really don't want to get into
those kinds of comparisons, because people learn what they learn, and
understand what they understand, and neither unschooling nor school is
going to change the fact that there are differences).
Balance.
http://sandradodd.com/balance
If there are unschoolers who are under the impression that unschooling
needs to involve the absence of those things sold at teacher supply
stores, they did NOT get that impression from my site nor from any
list I've been active on.
If people are getting that impressing from lists that broke off from
this one or unschooling discussion, perhaps lists shouldn't have
broken off, or the organizers of those lists should have stayed active
on the other lists as well. I'm thinking of five lists, every one of
which has had people come back here or to UD later and say "But I
thought..."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 3/26/2009 1:09 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
more from unschoolers they meet at park days or conferences.
When I talk to people about unschooling, I hear more and more often -
"Wow, that isn't how unschooling was described to me." They'll say, "I
was told it meant...." and fill in the blank with something extreme and
misleading. It might be: "....feeding your kids nothing but sugary
sweets." Or it might be, "...mom doing all the housework and nobody else
ever lifting a finger to help." Lots of misunderstandings. Someone said
to me recently, " I could never be an unschooler, I love books too much."
-pam
> If there are unschoolers who are under the impression that unschoolingThey don't just get the impression from lists. I think, in fact, it is
> needs to involve the absence of those things sold at teacher supply
> stores, they did NOT get that impression from my site nor from any
> list I've been active on.
>
> If people are getting that impression from lists that broke off from
> this one or unschooling discussion, perhaps lists shouldn't have
> broken off, or the organizers of those lists should have stayed active
> on the other lists as well. I'm thinking of five lists, every one of
> which has had people come back here or to UD later and say "But I
> thought..."
>
>
more from unschoolers they meet at park days or conferences.
When I talk to people about unschooling, I hear more and more often -
"Wow, that isn't how unschooling was described to me." They'll say, "I
was told it meant...." and fill in the blank with something extreme and
misleading. It might be: "....feeding your kids nothing but sugary
sweets." Or it might be, "...mom doing all the housework and nobody else
ever lifting a finger to help." Lots of misunderstandings. Someone said
to me recently, " I could never be an unschooler, I love books too much."
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=They don't just get the impression from lists. I think, in fact, it is
more from unschoolers they meet at park days or conferences.-=-
So if there are people unschooling based on no more than a few
conversations, that seems bad.
Maybe they're so anti-intellectual they don't want to join a list or
read online. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
more from unschoolers they meet at park days or conferences.-=-
So if there are people unschooling based on no more than a few
conversations, that seems bad.
Maybe they're so anti-intellectual they don't want to join a list or
read online. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
>>>> Who believe you need to chain them to their desks in order for them to have a hope of becoming as smart, well versed, knowledgeable, or well educated as they are because that is what was done to them. <<<<Well I know I'm smart. Woe betide anybody who tells me I'm not. "I
went to school after all!"
It's hard to argue against that without seeming to insult someone's
intelligence.
;)
~Katherine
Pam Sorooshian
On 3/26/2009 1:46 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
about critical thinking and analysis and ideas and logic and
reasoning....and lots of people are uncomfortable with all that
intellectual stuff. People complain about the lists as not being
supportive. The complainers are probably not those who like highly
intellectual pursuits. So - those of us here, participating, are biased
toward a more intellectual approach to unschooling. We are a
self-selected group. There are lots of unschoolers out there who don't
find these lists appealing at all. They do go to conferences and read
books, sometimes, but I'm always surprised at how many people DO
unschool with very little to go on - they do it because it "feels" right
to them. But, that that makes ME uncomfortable is undoubtedly MY
intellectual bias showing. <g>
-pam
> So if there are people unschooling based on no more than a fewYes, well, now we're getting somewhere, aren't we? The lists are all
> conversations, that seems bad.
> Maybe they're so anti-intellectual they don't want to join a list or
> read online.<g>
>
about critical thinking and analysis and ideas and logic and
reasoning....and lots of people are uncomfortable with all that
intellectual stuff. People complain about the lists as not being
supportive. The complainers are probably not those who like highly
intellectual pursuits. So - those of us here, participating, are biased
toward a more intellectual approach to unschooling. We are a
self-selected group. There are lots of unschoolers out there who don't
find these lists appealing at all. They do go to conferences and read
books, sometimes, but I'm always surprised at how many people DO
unschool with very little to go on - they do it because it "feels" right
to them. But, that that makes ME uncomfortable is undoubtedly MY
intellectual bias showing. <g>
-pam