looking for persuasive evidence
Schuyler
In order to have evidence you have to be aware of what you are looking for. There have been a couple of big idealogically scary parenting choices that I made that David agreed to. One was not limiting food choice. Over the years we've had huge evidence that it works. So much so that David is upstairs, right now, working on a paper about food choice in children. But it was important in the early days to notice when Simon and Linnaea didn't get stuck eating one sweet or fattening thing until they got sick from it. It also was good to keep a diary of what they had eaten over the course of a week to see how they were eating a huge range of things and to have that to hand when one of us got nervous. It helped both of us to relax in the face of all that we had believed to be true up to that point.
If the concerns of a partner are about things like academic knowledge than you have to tailor your evidence to comfort those fears. Part of that is about living a life that is rich in the kinds of connections that an academic education seeks to make. It's also about recognizing when those connections get made and advertising them. Not to the kids, but to your partner. I can remember when Simon was 5 or 6 or so and we were playing an Asterix and Obelix game on the pc and you could get 10x modifiers for kills. Simon very quickly was doing the math. And I pointed it out to David. It wasn't a curriculum, it wasn't waiting for a connection to be made, but it was, when one happened, pulling it out context and showing it as evidence for academic learning.
Young children aren't the best advocates for unschooling. Not because they aren't fantastic, but because they usually aren't interested in doing the things that schools push. So having persuasive evidence is trickier with younger children simply because they aren't as focused on those things the can comfort someone who is unsure. However, young children are fantastically curious and interested and engaged and engaging. And it is easy to see how you can encourage them and how you can discourage them. Persuasive evidence could be stories and pictures and moments and videos. Linnaea loved ladybugs and snails when she was little. She would find ladybugs when we'd go out walking and carry them home and put them on the little window box of plants we had in the back concrete yard. Some of them were parasatized. Some of them ended up cocooning themselves to a leaf and staying alive enough to protect their parasite from predators. I looked them up on-line and
found out a bunch about them. Even discovered that we'd been in the middle of a mating flurry of the species who parasatized the ladybugs when we'd hung out at the skatepark one day. Total life cycle explored by a 4 year old through her love of ladybugs.
Children who have recently been pulled from school aren't particularly persuasive. They are wounded and are healing from the systematic narrowing of their understanding of how earning happens and what an education is. It takes time to get over that. It helps a lot if both parents recognize that a child withdrawn from school is going to need time to get over school before they are ready to embrace learning. If your children are in that stage it helps to hang out with them as they do what they do and see what they are exploring. They will be learning, but they may be more resisitant to anything that might look like school. If one of their parents made the decision to pull them out of school that parent may be feeling a need to prove their decision the right decision. If that's the situation you are in, don't work to change the child, work to see how what they are doing is filled with learning, even if it looks so completely different from anything school
would have offered.
Evidence is all over the place in a rich and engaging life that learning is happening. Being around and noticing it, being the recorder of knowledge, keeping a journal or a blog, finding articles that address your partner's fears, those are ways to amass the evidence to help to reassure a nervous partner. And as an addendum, it helps a lot for you to see that his or her fears are about loving his or her children and wanting them to have the best possible resources to sustain them throughout their lives.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If the concerns of a partner are about things like academic knowledge than you have to tailor your evidence to comfort those fears. Part of that is about living a life that is rich in the kinds of connections that an academic education seeks to make. It's also about recognizing when those connections get made and advertising them. Not to the kids, but to your partner. I can remember when Simon was 5 or 6 or so and we were playing an Asterix and Obelix game on the pc and you could get 10x modifiers for kills. Simon very quickly was doing the math. And I pointed it out to David. It wasn't a curriculum, it wasn't waiting for a connection to be made, but it was, when one happened, pulling it out context and showing it as evidence for academic learning.
Young children aren't the best advocates for unschooling. Not because they aren't fantastic, but because they usually aren't interested in doing the things that schools push. So having persuasive evidence is trickier with younger children simply because they aren't as focused on those things the can comfort someone who is unsure. However, young children are fantastically curious and interested and engaged and engaging. And it is easy to see how you can encourage them and how you can discourage them. Persuasive evidence could be stories and pictures and moments and videos. Linnaea loved ladybugs and snails when she was little. She would find ladybugs when we'd go out walking and carry them home and put them on the little window box of plants we had in the back concrete yard. Some of them were parasatized. Some of them ended up cocooning themselves to a leaf and staying alive enough to protect their parasite from predators. I looked them up on-line and
found out a bunch about them. Even discovered that we'd been in the middle of a mating flurry of the species who parasatized the ladybugs when we'd hung out at the skatepark one day. Total life cycle explored by a 4 year old through her love of ladybugs.
Children who have recently been pulled from school aren't particularly persuasive. They are wounded and are healing from the systematic narrowing of their understanding of how earning happens and what an education is. It takes time to get over that. It helps a lot if both parents recognize that a child withdrawn from school is going to need time to get over school before they are ready to embrace learning. If your children are in that stage it helps to hang out with them as they do what they do and see what they are exploring. They will be learning, but they may be more resisitant to anything that might look like school. If one of their parents made the decision to pull them out of school that parent may be feeling a need to prove their decision the right decision. If that's the situation you are in, don't work to change the child, work to see how what they are doing is filled with learning, even if it looks so completely different from anything school
would have offered.
Evidence is all over the place in a rich and engaging life that learning is happening. Being around and noticing it, being the recorder of knowledge, keeping a journal or a blog, finding articles that address your partner's fears, those are ways to amass the evidence to help to reassure a nervous partner. And as an addendum, it helps a lot for you to see that his or her fears are about loving his or her children and wanting them to have the best possible resources to sustain them throughout their lives.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
John and Amanda Slater
--- On Tue, 3/17/09, Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
Young children aren't the best advocates for unschooling. Not because they aren't fantastic, but because they usually aren't interested in doing the things that schools push.
*****
We found unschooling when Elijah was 4. At first dh was a bit unsure about not forcing them to learn. What really helped him was that the boys were so young. I offered that we could try it for 2 years. I could certainly catch up all the kindergarten material in a few months if we wanted to put him in school later. We went ahead and registered to homeschool for kindergarten, which would give us the choice for the following year to either continue to homeschool, or enroll him in kindergarten or 1st grade.
Well, Elijah did not start spontaniously reading, but it was clear he was learning, and very clear what a horrible fit school would be for him. The fact that he was young relieved the pressure for all of us.
Amanda
Elijah 7, Samuel 6
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- But it was important in the early days to notice when Simon and
Linnaea didn't get stuck eating one sweet or fattening thing until
they got sick from it.=-
Please clarify.
It was important to your "study" because of your fears and predictions?
It didn't happen, did it?
-=-. It wasn't a curriculum, it wasn't waiting for a connection to be
made, but it was, when one happened, pulling it out context and
showing it as evidence for academic learning. -=-
I have diaries from when the kids were little. They were always on
the Mac, and I've been careful when getting new computers not to lose
those. That's where I would tell stories of interesting things
they'd said or done.
People with blogs do that sometimes on blogs, and that's cool. There
are also good stories of my kids' learning scattered on existing and
long-gone online discussions. I didn't keep them all. I used to
grieve that sometimes, but y'know... what was happening was I was
learning (and others, too) how learning happens. And part of
learning it was noting the surprising or charming instances. And
literally "noting" them. Notating. <g>
And early on, I think when I shared some of these with Keith his
reaction was kind of "Yeah, but..." and if there are only ten or
twenty cool incidents, "Yeah, but" is appropriate. But when it gets
into the hundreds, while the school-kid neighbors are getting cloudy-
eyed, that's evidence.
-=-Young children aren't the best advocates for unschooling. Not
because they aren't fantastic, but because they usually aren't
interested in doing the things that schools push. So having persuasive
evidence is trickier with younger children simply because they aren't
as focused on those things the can comfort someone who is unsure.=-
Kirby and Marty didn't even used to know what the game plan was with
their home education. Seriously, I rarely talked about it to them.
I'd talk to other moms, and the kids might overhear it, but I didn't
have face to face or heart to heart discussions with them about what I
was thinking or doing. Holly has a special interest in me and what
I'm doing (and what I did before she was born, and what my friends did
when I was little). She loves to go with me when I visit friends in
my home town. She asks questions. She observes other unschooling
families specifically to look at the unschooling. I didn't start that
with her, though; she did.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Linnaea didn't get stuck eating one sweet or fattening thing until
they got sick from it.=-
Please clarify.
It was important to your "study" because of your fears and predictions?
It didn't happen, did it?
-=-. It wasn't a curriculum, it wasn't waiting for a connection to be
made, but it was, when one happened, pulling it out context and
showing it as evidence for academic learning. -=-
I have diaries from when the kids were little. They were always on
the Mac, and I've been careful when getting new computers not to lose
those. That's where I would tell stories of interesting things
they'd said or done.
People with blogs do that sometimes on blogs, and that's cool. There
are also good stories of my kids' learning scattered on existing and
long-gone online discussions. I didn't keep them all. I used to
grieve that sometimes, but y'know... what was happening was I was
learning (and others, too) how learning happens. And part of
learning it was noting the surprising or charming instances. And
literally "noting" them. Notating. <g>
And early on, I think when I shared some of these with Keith his
reaction was kind of "Yeah, but..." and if there are only ten or
twenty cool incidents, "Yeah, but" is appropriate. But when it gets
into the hundreds, while the school-kid neighbors are getting cloudy-
eyed, that's evidence.
-=-Young children aren't the best advocates for unschooling. Not
because they aren't fantastic, but because they usually aren't
interested in doing the things that schools push. So having persuasive
evidence is trickier with younger children simply because they aren't
as focused on those things the can comfort someone who is unsure.=-
Kirby and Marty didn't even used to know what the game plan was with
their home education. Seriously, I rarely talked about it to them.
I'd talk to other moms, and the kids might overhear it, but I didn't
have face to face or heart to heart discussions with them about what I
was thinking or doing. Holly has a special interest in me and what
I'm doing (and what I did before she was born, and what my friends did
when I was little). She loves to go with me when I visit friends in
my home town. She asks questions. She observes other unschooling
families specifically to look at the unschooling. I didn't start that
with her, though; she did.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Children who have recently been pulled from school aren't
particularly persuasive. They are wounded and are healing from the
systematic narrowing of their understanding of how learning happens
and what an education is. It takes time to get over that. It helps a
lot if both parents recognize that a child withdrawn from school is
going to need time to get over school before they are ready to embrace
learning. If your children are in that stage it helps to hang out with
them as they do what they do and see what they are exploring. They
will be learning, but they may be more resisitant to anything that
might look like school. If one of their parents made the decision to
pull them out of school that parent may be feeling a need to prove
their decision the right decision. If that's the situation you are in,
don't work to change the child, work to see how what they are doing is
filled with learning, even if it looks so completely different from
anything school
would have offered. -=-
I stuck an "l" in there on "earning" because I'm pretty sure it was
"learning," though I'm having issues lately with Holly's boyfriend who
had a narrowed understanding of how earning happens. He'll be okay,
eventually. But seriously, he's wounded in the relationship-with-
money part of his soul.
I wanted to comment on that paragraph of Schuyler's. When taking a
child out of school, deschooling is crucial. It's not an option, if
you want unschooling to work. It might go quickly with some people,
but it can't be forced or rushed. Pushing negates it. Rushing
destroys it.
If one parent is skeptical or afraid, the other parent might need to
ask for a time of experimentation during which the other parent
REALLY, truly doesn't do schoolish things, like quizzing, or asking
"what did you learn today" or anything of the sort. If that other
parent is antsy for proof, he should bring a movie home (not an
educational documentary, but an interesting movie), or play games with
the kid, or take him places and just talk about what they see, or let
the kid talk about school (IF he wants to), to work through some of
his memories (IF he wants to), without glorifying or justifying the
school end of it. And without villifying it either. Just let the kid
therapeutically tell stories without the parent getting all in and
over them.
http://sandradodd.com/truck
The unschooling-desirous parent could (gently, I hope) say that any
time the other parent schoolifies a moment, the year starts over
(year, six months, whatever--but "week" or "month" isn't worth a damn
as to deschooling--it has to be more than a summer vacation, and more
than a semester).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
particularly persuasive. They are wounded and are healing from the
systematic narrowing of their understanding of how learning happens
and what an education is. It takes time to get over that. It helps a
lot if both parents recognize that a child withdrawn from school is
going to need time to get over school before they are ready to embrace
learning. If your children are in that stage it helps to hang out with
them as they do what they do and see what they are exploring. They
will be learning, but they may be more resisitant to anything that
might look like school. If one of their parents made the decision to
pull them out of school that parent may be feeling a need to prove
their decision the right decision. If that's the situation you are in,
don't work to change the child, work to see how what they are doing is
filled with learning, even if it looks so completely different from
anything school
would have offered. -=-
I stuck an "l" in there on "earning" because I'm pretty sure it was
"learning," though I'm having issues lately with Holly's boyfriend who
had a narrowed understanding of how earning happens. He'll be okay,
eventually. But seriously, he's wounded in the relationship-with-
money part of his soul.
I wanted to comment on that paragraph of Schuyler's. When taking a
child out of school, deschooling is crucial. It's not an option, if
you want unschooling to work. It might go quickly with some people,
but it can't be forced or rushed. Pushing negates it. Rushing
destroys it.
If one parent is skeptical or afraid, the other parent might need to
ask for a time of experimentation during which the other parent
REALLY, truly doesn't do schoolish things, like quizzing, or asking
"what did you learn today" or anything of the sort. If that other
parent is antsy for proof, he should bring a movie home (not an
educational documentary, but an interesting movie), or play games with
the kid, or take him places and just talk about what they see, or let
the kid talk about school (IF he wants to), to work through some of
his memories (IF he wants to), without glorifying or justifying the
school end of it. And without villifying it either. Just let the kid
therapeutically tell stories without the parent getting all in and
over them.
http://sandradodd.com/truck
The unschooling-desirous parent could (gently, I hope) say that any
time the other parent schoolifies a moment, the year starts over
(year, six months, whatever--but "week" or "month" isn't worth a damn
as to deschooling--it has to be more than a summer vacation, and more
than a semester).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- At first dh was a bit unsure about not forcing them to learn.-=-
It helped me going in to have known that it's not possible to force
someone to learn. I learned that in college. <g> Seriously--college
of education, where they "forced me" to read John Holt, thought it
wasn't hard to read that stuff. It was pretty exciting to read about
school reform and the studies they had to 'prove' it would work, all
except they'd forgotten what happens when the teacher is reluctant or
hostile to it, and the kids have no choice...
That's part of what Maslow was talking about. If you force (threaten)
someone, he won't be feeling safe enough for learning to happen.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It helped me going in to have known that it's not possible to force
someone to learn. I learned that in college. <g> Seriously--college
of education, where they "forced me" to read John Holt, thought it
wasn't hard to read that stuff. It was pretty exciting to read about
school reform and the studies they had to 'prove' it would work, all
except they'd forgotten what happens when the teacher is reluctant or
hostile to it, and the kids have no choice...
That's part of what Maslow was talking about. If you force (threaten)
someone, he won't be feeling safe enough for learning to happen.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
-=-. It wasn't a curriculum, it wasn't waiting for a connection to be
made, but it was, when one happened, pulling it out context and
showing it as evidence for academic learning. -=-
twenty cool incidents, "Yeah, but" is appropriate. But when it gets
into the hundreds, while the school-kid neighbors are getting cloudy-
eyed, that's evidence. <<<<
Since a great many kids are in daycare and preschool before they even start
kindergarten, you can see the very cloudy-eyed thing you're talking about in
kids Karl's age.. 5 years old. At 4 some of them still have spark but most
of them seem to lose that by 5 and 6 years of age.
Maybe that's because developmentally kids of that age begin to amass more
realistic information about their world and give less credence to make
believe. Of course some kids wait later than others -- I stuck with it
until I was around 7 or so and I can remember some of the things I used to
think could really happen that can't -- flying like Peter Pan is a good
example, something I seriously wanted to try when I was 9 or 10. I detached
from the fantasy world very *very* reluctantly.
So now, Karl alternately plays in his fairytale "reality" while becoming
increasingly interested in what isn't a fairytale. He asks about violent
stuff he sees and what really happens because he realizes much of what he
sees on the screen isn't real. He's been asking more and more about it
lately, much more than when he started asking these things at 3 or so.
That's sorta educational but doesn't count much in school (or it didn't
when/where I went to school ;). He's doesn't seem to be less happy in the
realm of reality. He seems to see a lot of value in it. He seems to
understand the uses of story within reality to a greater degree. Like for
humor.
It's evidence for unschooling of a sort, I think. Though not measurable and
I can't compare myself or another kid with Karl cleanly or precisely
accounting for all other factors, nor is it academic.
Instead I notate it for myself (to encourage unschooling) without using it
as evidence per se... in order for Brian to get unschooling. Even factoring
in differences in personality, to me it seems that Karl is comfortable
weighing different kinds of information, whether fairytale or reality.
Whereas I continue to much prefer fantasy, as an escape from reality. Think
Neverending Story. The Little Prince.
The significance of that for me is that while it's hard -- on my own -- to
enjoy doing and being in reality, Karl is totally into it. And Karl's
interest makes it much easier for me to take the importance of doing and
being in living. Really living as opposed to only fantasizing about living
endlessly.
For others, seeing the above in one's children could point out the value of
fantasizing instead of only valuing the utility in things, the pragmatic
usefulness of stuff.
In other words, I think unschooling children can reveal that the balance act
in living is easier for our children than it for us, and it can inspire the
parents to become more balanced in many ways, in addition to the interplay
of fantasy/reality.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
made, but it was, when one happened, pulling it out context and
showing it as evidence for academic learning. -=-
>>>> And early on, I think when I shared some of these with Keith hisreaction was kind of "Yeah, but..." and if there are only ten or
twenty cool incidents, "Yeah, but" is appropriate. But when it gets
into the hundreds, while the school-kid neighbors are getting cloudy-
eyed, that's evidence. <<<<
Since a great many kids are in daycare and preschool before they even start
kindergarten, you can see the very cloudy-eyed thing you're talking about in
kids Karl's age.. 5 years old. At 4 some of them still have spark but most
of them seem to lose that by 5 and 6 years of age.
Maybe that's because developmentally kids of that age begin to amass more
realistic information about their world and give less credence to make
believe. Of course some kids wait later than others -- I stuck with it
until I was around 7 or so and I can remember some of the things I used to
think could really happen that can't -- flying like Peter Pan is a good
example, something I seriously wanted to try when I was 9 or 10. I detached
from the fantasy world very *very* reluctantly.
So now, Karl alternately plays in his fairytale "reality" while becoming
increasingly interested in what isn't a fairytale. He asks about violent
stuff he sees and what really happens because he realizes much of what he
sees on the screen isn't real. He's been asking more and more about it
lately, much more than when he started asking these things at 3 or so.
That's sorta educational but doesn't count much in school (or it didn't
when/where I went to school ;). He's doesn't seem to be less happy in the
realm of reality. He seems to see a lot of value in it. He seems to
understand the uses of story within reality to a greater degree. Like for
humor.
It's evidence for unschooling of a sort, I think. Though not measurable and
I can't compare myself or another kid with Karl cleanly or precisely
accounting for all other factors, nor is it academic.
Instead I notate it for myself (to encourage unschooling) without using it
as evidence per se... in order for Brian to get unschooling. Even factoring
in differences in personality, to me it seems that Karl is comfortable
weighing different kinds of information, whether fairytale or reality.
Whereas I continue to much prefer fantasy, as an escape from reality. Think
Neverending Story. The Little Prince.
The significance of that for me is that while it's hard -- on my own -- to
enjoy doing and being in reality, Karl is totally into it. And Karl's
interest makes it much easier for me to take the importance of doing and
being in living. Really living as opposed to only fantasizing about living
endlessly.
For others, seeing the above in one's children could point out the value of
fantasizing instead of only valuing the utility in things, the pragmatic
usefulness of stuff.
In other words, I think unschooling children can reveal that the balance act
in living is easier for our children than it for us, and it can inspire the
parents to become more balanced in many ways, in addition to the interplay
of fantasy/reality.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
>>>> The unschooling-desirous parent could (gently, I hope) say that anytime the other parent schoolifies a moment, the year starts over
(year, six months, whatever--but "week" or "month" isn't worth a damn
as to deschooling--it has to be more than a summer vacation, and more
than a semester). <<<<
And I want to emphasize... in probably *any* deschooling situation, it's
the parents who could use the most deschooling.
When I think how long ---over 5 years now--- it has taken two parents to
deschool so as to be able to unschool one child who has never been to school
a day in his life (well... only 1 horrible week in daycare and about a year
in single provider childcare).
It's the parents who could use the most deschooling. So.. every time a
parent says or does schoolish things, deschooling reboots. When a parent
begins more consciously to avoid schoolish or teaching moments more often,
they get to the point where they can stop wearing themselves out on crashing
and rebooting.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
It was important to say it aloud, not to Simon and Linnaea, but to David. It was important because I was throwing off all that either of us had heard up to that point about human evolution in regards to food (there is a lot that we hadn't heard, there is more now and it goes under advertised as it doesn't fit with the belief that food is addictive and obesity is about food being addictive and not about limiting choice). It was important to note that Simon didn't eat all the Halloween candy as soon as he got it like I used to, it was important to see how they never got stuck eating one sweet or fattening thing until they got sick from it, never.
Last night Linnaea overate for the first time. She had a bowl of pasta at about 4:30 and was full, but dinner was black bean soup and naans and she really loves black bean soup and naans, so she had some. Not alot, but enough for her stomach to hurt from eating so much. We have lots of food around that children would be predicted to eat so much of they'd make themselves sick. Things like candy and chips and ice cream. None of that has ever happened, not for either of them, not even after I stopped limiting their food. But last night black bean soup pushed Linnaea into uncomfortable overfull.
Today we went to the grocery store after a dentist appointment. Simon and Linnaea went through the store and picked out what they wanted. They got baklava and Canada Dry ginger ale and tortellini and malteasers (for David and Linnaea) and alphabet spaghetti-os and apples and lettuce and cabbage. Those were there choices. Those are the choices of children whose parents don't limit them, who could have whatever they wanted from all the aisles and have been able to do that for at least 8 years.
Sunday is Linnaea's birthday. I asked her today what kind of cake she wants and she squinched up her face and said she didn't really like cake. I asked what would she like instead and she thought and said "homemade spinach and ricotta ravioli". So, I just have to figure out how to get candles into ravioli... Actually, I'm going to try and make these or something like these:http://bakerella.blogspot.com/2009/02/here-kitty-kitty.html. Linnaea likes that idea.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
-=- But it was important in the early days to notice when Simon and
Linnaea didn't get stuck eating one sweet or fattening thing until
they got sick from it.=-
Please clarify.
It was important to your "study" because of your fears and predictions?
It didn't happen, did it?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Last night Linnaea overate for the first time. She had a bowl of pasta at about 4:30 and was full, but dinner was black bean soup and naans and she really loves black bean soup and naans, so she had some. Not alot, but enough for her stomach to hurt from eating so much. We have lots of food around that children would be predicted to eat so much of they'd make themselves sick. Things like candy and chips and ice cream. None of that has ever happened, not for either of them, not even after I stopped limiting their food. But last night black bean soup pushed Linnaea into uncomfortable overfull.
Today we went to the grocery store after a dentist appointment. Simon and Linnaea went through the store and picked out what they wanted. They got baklava and Canada Dry ginger ale and tortellini and malteasers (for David and Linnaea) and alphabet spaghetti-os and apples and lettuce and cabbage. Those were there choices. Those are the choices of children whose parents don't limit them, who could have whatever they wanted from all the aisles and have been able to do that for at least 8 years.
Sunday is Linnaea's birthday. I asked her today what kind of cake she wants and she squinched up her face and said she didn't really like cake. I asked what would she like instead and she thought and said "homemade spinach and ricotta ravioli". So, I just have to figure out how to get candles into ravioli... Actually, I'm going to try and make these or something like these:http://bakerella.blogspot.com/2009/02/here-kitty-kitty.html. Linnaea likes that idea.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
-=- But it was important in the early days to notice when Simon and
Linnaea didn't get stuck eating one sweet or fattening thing until
they got sick from it.=-
Please clarify.
It was important to your "study" because of your fears and predictions?
It didn't happen, did it?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
Rosie and Roxana are both taking college classes - and had an
interesting conversation in the car the other day. Rosie's political
science teacher assigned "Tuesdays with Morrie" as required reading. It
is a book that I thought Rosie would probably really like, but hadn't
yet read. She reads a lot - hundreds of books in a year. But, she was
sort of grousing about "having to read" it. Roxana is taking two
different theater history courses (contemporary and classical).. She has
a large script collection and loves to read and analyze plays. Both
classes require her to read a bunch of plays. The two of them had a
little conversation about how weird it is that they feel a little bit of
resistance to reading things that are assigned even when they know
they'll like reading them once they get started. They both mentioned
that they procrastinate and have an "I have to do this whether I want to
or not" kind of feeling about it. Not strong - just a hint of it - but
that it is there.
Humans don't generally like being coerced. We put up with it when we
think it is worth it, but we seem to have a natural urge to either
resist it or to completely give in to it and lose our sense of self (a
version of Stockholm syndrome).
-pam
interesting conversation in the car the other day. Rosie's political
science teacher assigned "Tuesdays with Morrie" as required reading. It
is a book that I thought Rosie would probably really like, but hadn't
yet read. She reads a lot - hundreds of books in a year. But, she was
sort of grousing about "having to read" it. Roxana is taking two
different theater history courses (contemporary and classical).. She has
a large script collection and loves to read and analyze plays. Both
classes require her to read a bunch of plays. The two of them had a
little conversation about how weird it is that they feel a little bit of
resistance to reading things that are assigned even when they know
they'll like reading them once they get started. They both mentioned
that they procrastinate and have an "I have to do this whether I want to
or not" kind of feeling about it. Not strong - just a hint of it - but
that it is there.
Humans don't generally like being coerced. We put up with it when we
think it is worth it, but we seem to have a natural urge to either
resist it or to completely give in to it and lose our sense of self (a
version of Stockholm syndrome).
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=-Humans don't generally like being coerced. We put up with it when we
think it is worth it, but we seem to have a natural urge to either
resist it or to completely give in to it and lose our sense of self (a
version of Stockholm syndrome).=-
Desperate Housewives is building up to something with Bree and
Orson. She's been treating him like a little kid. She pays her own
son twice as much as she pays her husband to work in her business (he
found out by stealth), and he started acting more like a kid. She's
treating him more and more like a kid (not like we treat our kids, but
the stereotypical controlling and shaming stuff) and something will
break. He's been stealing nicknacks from the neighbors. If someone's
impolite to him, he steals something. They went to a counsellor.
Holly and I were fascinated.
I have some female friends who treat their husbands like children and
the children have completely given in to it and lost their sense of
self. They have accepted their wives acting as traditional
(sometimes mean) mothers. It doesn't seem healthy.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
think it is worth it, but we seem to have a natural urge to either
resist it or to completely give in to it and lose our sense of self (a
version of Stockholm syndrome).=-
Desperate Housewives is building up to something with Bree and
Orson. She's been treating him like a little kid. She pays her own
son twice as much as she pays her husband to work in her business (he
found out by stealth), and he started acting more like a kid. She's
treating him more and more like a kid (not like we treat our kids, but
the stereotypical controlling and shaming stuff) and something will
break. He's been stealing nicknacks from the neighbors. If someone's
impolite to him, he steals something. They went to a counsellor.
Holly and I were fascinated.
I have some female friends who treat their husbands like children and
the children have completely given in to it and lost their sense of
self. They have accepted their wives acting as traditional
(sometimes mean) mothers. It doesn't seem healthy.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
>Maybe that's because developmentally kids of that age begin to amassmore
> realistic information about their world and give less credence to makeused to
> believe. Of course some kids wait later than others -- I stuck with it
> until I was around 7 or so and I can remember some of the things I
> think could really happen that can't -- flying like Peter Pan is agood
> example, something I seriously wanted to try when I was 9 or 10. Idetached
> from the fantasy world very *very* reluctantly.I can remember a very intense conversation with Chamille when she was
>
>
about 11. She really really wanted her imagination world to be real.
She wanted it so badly that it made her sad to know that reality
wouldn't let it be. It was a very distinct shift in her imagination
world colliding with reality. She felt so strongly about her
imagination world that she kept the neighbor kids involved in
imagination play, probably long after they would've naturally progressed
out of it through peer pressure and school conformity. This is about
the same time she started reading.
One thing that we talked about during that transition is that people who
write novels will keep that imagination world alive in thoughts. So,
while she was getting too old to play make believe, she didn't want to
let go of all the stories in her head. Manga was a really nice way to
keep the visuals connected with the stories.
She keeps those worlds alive through books and movies. So far, she
hasn't felt the need to write anything down from her own head, but maybe
one day she will. She's currently puting those ideas out there through
images created by what she looks like. Cosplay is a really cool way to
extend the make believe world for people like Chamille. Or as my
husband calls it, PPS, or Peter Pan Syndrome, which he proudly claims to
have.
When Chamille dresses up, there is always an underlying backstory or
idea that she is portraying. It's more art than anything else, only the
body is the canvas.
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I have some female friends who treat their husbands like children and
the children have completely given in to it and lost their sense of
self. They have accepted their wives acting as traditional
(sometimes mean) mothers. It doesn't seem healthy
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I have to confess that I have been guilty of treating Brian like a child in the beginning.
It was terrible. Thanks to unschooling I changed a lot.
I used to nag him about what he ate and so on.
I am sure learning about unschooling has made our marriage so much better.
I don't treat him like that anymore and it really shows.
He is much happier now than 7 years ago.
We have stronger marriage and he finally feels I am on his side.
He also has a lot more confidence and I think some of his childhood with his mother has healed.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
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the children have completely given in to it and lost their sense of
self. They have accepted their wives acting as traditional
(sometimes mean) mothers. It doesn't seem healthy
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I have to confess that I have been guilty of treating Brian like a child in the beginning.
It was terrible. Thanks to unschooling I changed a lot.
I used to nag him about what he ate and so on.
I am sure learning about unschooling has made our marriage so much better.
I don't treat him like that anymore and it really shows.
He is much happier now than 7 years ago.
We have stronger marriage and he finally feels I am on his side.
He also has a lot more confidence and I think some of his childhood with his mother has healed.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
WHOA! Look what I accidentally wrote:
-=- I have some female friends who treat their husbands like children
and
the children have completely given in to it and lost their sense of
self. -=-
I meant "I have some female friends who treat their husbands like
children and
the husbands have completely given in to it and lost their sense of
self."
I hope some of you read what I meant...
-=-He also has a lot more confidence and I think some of his childhood
with his mother has healed.-=-
When I'm tempted to bug Keith about what he eats or doesn't eat, or
exercises, or fixes or doesn't fix, I try very hard not to say
anything. His mother never left him alone (still doesn't) and he
could never do anything right. So I look for cool things and right
things and I brag them up and thank him and kiss him.
I guess I'm being like a mom too, sometimes, in a way, but like a nice
mom who wants him to be happy and comfortable.
So maybe I retract my whole topic. <bwg>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=- I have some female friends who treat their husbands like children
and
the children have completely given in to it and lost their sense of
self. -=-
I meant "I have some female friends who treat their husbands like
children and
the husbands have completely given in to it and lost their sense of
self."
I hope some of you read what I meant...
-=-He also has a lot more confidence and I think some of his childhood
with his mother has healed.-=-
When I'm tempted to bug Keith about what he eats or doesn't eat, or
exercises, or fixes or doesn't fix, I try very hard not to say
anything. His mother never left him alone (still doesn't) and he
could never do anything right. So I look for cool things and right
things and I brag them up and thank him and kiss him.
I guess I'm being like a mom too, sometimes, in a way, but like a nice
mom who wants him to be happy and comfortable.
So maybe I retract my whole topic. <bwg>
Sandra
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BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Are you sure Keith and Brian did not have the same mom? <g>
It may be a topic for other groups but I think it is valid.
You cannot just change the way your parent your kids and
keep treating your partner without the same respect and consideration.
I have heard others that don't extend the same mindfulness( SP) to their partners
but doesn't that affect the whole family , the kids?
Not that I am always great towards Brian but I now am aware and I work on it the same way I work towards
being a better parent to my children.
My kids are growing up watching how me and Brian are as a loving couple.
They deserve to feel safe and have a good model for their future relationships.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It may be a topic for other groups but I think it is valid.
You cannot just change the way your parent your kids and
keep treating your partner without the same respect and consideration.
I have heard others that don't extend the same mindfulness( SP) to their partners
but doesn't that affect the whole family , the kids?
Not that I am always great towards Brian but I now am aware and I work on it the same way I work towards
being a better parent to my children.
My kids are growing up watching how me and Brian are as a loving couple.
They deserve to feel safe and have a good model for their future relationships.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
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k
>>>> Humans don't generally like being coerced. <<<<In school, the person doing an assignment gets credit for neither thinking
of it nor very much for doing it ----- other than a grade. And reading
something for a class is not doing something for a purpose other than class
requirements and grades. It's not like the reason for doing an assignment
is doing something *for* someone.
If a person can somehow come up with other reasons, then that person can
somehow own the task and make it worth doing. Which is why I could do
assignments without very much grousing even though they weren't my idea. I
could usually manage to make them my idea somehow and that made it worth it
for me. Otherwise I might think it's something just to be gotten through..
and sometimes that's the way school was ---to be gotten through. I always
took an elective for fun to get through the semester if I had a slew of dull
classes. Just for sanity, even though it meant more work.
~Katherine
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blue_mountain34
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
"learning," though I'm having issues lately with Holly's boyfriend who
had a narrowed understanding of how earning happens. He'll be okay,
eventually. But seriously, he's wounded in the relationship-with-
money part of his soul.
I wanted to know more about this....how do you know that he will be
okay eventually, for example. I'm asking because you are describing my
23 year old son. My son also has a poor relationship with money. He is
several thousand dollars in debt, was fired from his last job a few
months ago and is having a hard time finding another, partly because he
is not looking very hard.
How does one help without enabling? We have been an unschooling family
for only a couple of years, so our son, who now lives on his own, grew
up with mainstream parenting. Is it possible to 'unschool' after the
fact, so to speak? If so, how?
Thanks!
Marie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I stuck an "l" in there on "earning" because I'm pretty sure it was
"learning," though I'm having issues lately with Holly's boyfriend who
had a narrowed understanding of how earning happens. He'll be okay,
eventually. But seriously, he's wounded in the relationship-with-
money part of his soul.
I wanted to know more about this....how do you know that he will be
okay eventually, for example. I'm asking because you are describing my
23 year old son. My son also has a poor relationship with money. He is
several thousand dollars in debt, was fired from his last job a few
months ago and is having a hard time finding another, partly because he
is not looking very hard.
How does one help without enabling? We have been an unschooling family
for only a couple of years, so our son, who now lives on his own, grew
up with mainstream parenting. Is it possible to 'unschool' after the
fact, so to speak? If so, how?
Thanks!
Marie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=How does one help without enabling? We have been an unschooling family
for only a couple of years, so our son, who now lives on his own, grew
up with mainstream parenting. Is it possible to 'unschool' after the
fact, so to speak? If so, how?-=-
"Enabling" someone to ruin his life with alcohol is one thing.
Enabling someone to live, to have a bed, to eat, is not the same thing.
I don't need to know more of your details, but I want to defend people
helping their friends and relatives out. I don't want to then also
defend people supporting drug addicts and alcoholics in such ways that
they can spend more time and money on drugs and alcohol.
If those issues are both in play, it's beyond the scope of this list.
-=-I wanted to know more about this....how do you know that he will be
okay eventually, for example.-=-
Because he wants to be different, for one thing. And he has a whole
different model, now that he's been with our family this long. We're
very different with money and relationships than his family of
origin. He's questioning everything, and it's not easy for him. Even
if he and Holly don't stay together for life, what he's seen and
experienced here will create a broader base from which he can make
real choices of his own.
-=-I'm asking because you are describing my
23 year old son. My son also has a poor relationship with money. He is
several thousand dollars in debt, was fired from his last job a few
months ago and is having a hard time finding another, partly because he
is not looking very hard.-=-
Helping him find a job might be nice. Does he have a resume on
Monster.com? Can you look in local listings and find things he might
like?
Sandra
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for only a couple of years, so our son, who now lives on his own, grew
up with mainstream parenting. Is it possible to 'unschool' after the
fact, so to speak? If so, how?-=-
"Enabling" someone to ruin his life with alcohol is one thing.
Enabling someone to live, to have a bed, to eat, is not the same thing.
I don't need to know more of your details, but I want to defend people
helping their friends and relatives out. I don't want to then also
defend people supporting drug addicts and alcoholics in such ways that
they can spend more time and money on drugs and alcohol.
If those issues are both in play, it's beyond the scope of this list.
-=-I wanted to know more about this....how do you know that he will be
okay eventually, for example.-=-
Because he wants to be different, for one thing. And he has a whole
different model, now that he's been with our family this long. We're
very different with money and relationships than his family of
origin. He's questioning everything, and it's not easy for him. Even
if he and Holly don't stay together for life, what he's seen and
experienced here will create a broader base from which he can make
real choices of his own.
-=-I'm asking because you are describing my
23 year old son. My son also has a poor relationship with money. He is
several thousand dollars in debt, was fired from his last job a few
months ago and is having a hard time finding another, partly because he
is not looking very hard.-=-
Helping him find a job might be nice. Does he have a resume on
Monster.com? Can you look in local listings and find things he might
like?
Sandra
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