Challenging article
Joanna Murphy
Here is a link to an article that challenges the idea of delayed marriage.
http://www.laughyourway.com/blog/young-marriage/
At every turn, in my life, I seem to find challenges to the cultural ideas that everyone assumes to be right, and then when examined more deeply are exposed for what they are: just an idea that may or may not serve, and in fact often doesn't.
I thought this was interesting food for thought in relation to radically unschooling our teens as they transition into adulthood.
Joanna
http://www.laughyourway.com/blog/young-marriage/
At every turn, in my life, I seem to find challenges to the cultural ideas that everyone assumes to be right, and then when examined more deeply are exposed for what they are: just an idea that may or may not serve, and in fact often doesn't.
I thought this was interesting food for thought in relation to radically unschooling our teens as they transition into adulthood.
Joanna
Laura Parrish
--- In [email protected], "Joanna Murphy" <ridingmom@...> wrote:
"... if you picked 100 unrelated politically liberal adults at random, you would find that they had, between them, 147 children. If you picked 100 conservatives, you would find 208 kids. That's a `fertility gap' of 41% A state that was split 50-50 between left and right in 2004 will tilt right by 2012, 54% to 46%. By 2020, it will be certifiably right-wing, 59% to 41%. A state that is currently 55-45 in favor of liberals (like California) will be 54-46 in favor of conservatives by 2020and all for no other reason than babies."
I thought this was interesting. They seem to assume that politically liberal parents produce liberal offspring, and politically conservative parents produce conservative offspring. Got me to thinking about whether this is generally true. My parents leaned to the right, and, of four children, two are liberal, two conservative.
Laura
>From the article:
> Here is a link to an article that challenges the idea of delayed marriage.
>
> http://www.laughyourway.com/blog/young-marriage/
>
> Joanna
"... if you picked 100 unrelated politically liberal adults at random, you would find that they had, between them, 147 children. If you picked 100 conservatives, you would find 208 kids. That's a `fertility gap' of 41% A state that was split 50-50 between left and right in 2004 will tilt right by 2012, 54% to 46%. By 2020, it will be certifiably right-wing, 59% to 41%. A state that is currently 55-45 in favor of liberals (like California) will be 54-46 in favor of conservatives by 2020and all for no other reason than babies."
I thought this was interesting. They seem to assume that politically liberal parents produce liberal offspring, and politically conservative parents produce conservative offspring. Got me to thinking about whether this is generally true. My parents leaned to the right, and, of four children, two are liberal, two conservative.
Laura
Tanya Ziegler
> > Here is a link to an article that challenges the idea of delayed marriage.I found this article interesting. It relates to something I've been thinking about for the past year - probably b/c I'm finding myself wishing I hadn't needed my young adult life to figure out who I was and what I wanted out of life and would/could have started my own family sooner.
> >
> > http://www.laughyourway.com/blog/young-marriage/
> >
> > Joanna
I am still in the deschooling phase of Unschooling, and it is bringing up lots of stuff like this for me - how things could be different if we (society in general) threw out conventional parenting and school. Children could spend their youth being children and would be allowed to mature through that process, not finally start the maturing process (mental and emotional) in their young adult years.
So, I think a big reason so many of us have/are waiting so long to get married and start our own family is because we need our young adult lives to find ourselves once we are out of parents' homes and have the freedom to finally "be" and think for ourselves and essentially finally mature. At least this is the case for me.
I've also been contemplating this delayed child-rearing issue. Unschooling has brought me to think about living more within our natural bodily rhythms. The obvious ones are food and sleep which are discussed so much in radical unschooling circles. But what about sexual bodily rhythms? Puberty is the start of that. One thing that has perplexed me greatly is the medical field saying that a teenage pregnancy is high risk because the body is not prepared for childbirth (or something like that). Well, that just doesn't make sense to me. If the natural rhythm of the body is such that a woman is physically capable of getting pregnant in her teens, then it would seem to be that nature designed it that way and it shouldn't be a medical issue.
I'm not saying all young people should get married and start their families in their teens, but I really do think that the delay in marriage and childbearing has a lot to do with children's lives being over-controlled by parents, school, and society. A person cannot grow up and mature without personal life experience (a chance to make their own decisions, as well as their own mistakes) and the freedom of space and time to do that.
Schuyler
Teenage girls suffer, if that's the right word, from low fecundity. It takes about 5 years after starting menstruating for women to reach stable fertile menstrual cycles. It's called a period of sub-fecundity. Also, early foetal loss is lowest after age 20 and before age 35. Among most populations the period of peak fertility for women is in their late 20's and early 30's. Ache hunter gatherer women, for example, are most likely to give birth from age 30 to 35. Just hitting puberty isn't actually evidence of physical readiness for having babies.
Schuyler
________________________________
I've also been contemplating this delayed child-rearing issue. Unschooling has brought me to think about living more within our natural bodily rhythms. The obvious ones are food and sleep which are discussed so much in radical unschooling circles. But what about sexual bodily rhythms? Puberty is the start of that. One thing that has perplexed me greatly is the medical field saying that a teenage pregnancy is high risk because the body is not prepared for childbirth (or something like that). Well, that just doesn't make sense to me. If the natural rhythm of the body is such that a woman is physically capable of getting pregnant in her teens, then it would seem to be that nature designed it that way and it shouldn't be a medical issue.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
________________________________
I've also been contemplating this delayed child-rearing issue. Unschooling has brought me to think about living more within our natural bodily rhythms. The obvious ones are food and sleep which are discussed so much in radical unschooling circles. But what about sexual bodily rhythms? Puberty is the start of that. One thing that has perplexed me greatly is the medical field saying that a teenage pregnancy is high risk because the body is not prepared for childbirth (or something like that). Well, that just doesn't make sense to me. If the natural rhythm of the body is such that a woman is physically capable of getting pregnant in her teens, then it would seem to be that nature designed it that way and it shouldn't be a medical issue.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I'm not saying all young people should get married and start their families in their teens, but I really do think that the delay in marriage and childbearing has a lot to do with children's lives being over-controlled by parents, school, and society. A person cannot grow up and mature without personal life experience (a chance to make their own decisions, as well as their own mistakes) and the freedom of space and time to do that.
-=-=-=-=-=-
No in my case. My parents were not controlling at all. Still growing up I always said i was not going to have kids.
Why? Because I knew if I did I would not be able to just leave them with a nanny or anyone for long periods of time.
That if I had kids I would love them too much to just ditch them and do my stuff. That they would come first. Funny but I was right.
I wanted to travel and I did not want to have a child to worry about. I wanted to be selfish.
So I had lots of fun, I traveled and I did everything I wanted to do until I found Brian and I realized I wanted to have kids with this man and settle down.
I had my first at 36 and my second a few days before 40.
I think I am a much better mom because of it.
That is just my experience. People are different.
And It was not because I did not want to grow up. I was the kid that work since I was 14 years old.
But I just knew that I was going to be with my kids at all times and there was so much I wanted to do without them first.
I could not had taken a baby to a dog show every weekend showing dogs ( believe me I used to work for a handler and take care of her baby at the shows and it was neglect a lot! - ), I could not spend hours in the ocean surfing or diving.
Or hours Mountain biking. I would never leave my child to do those things.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-=-=-=-=-
No in my case. My parents were not controlling at all. Still growing up I always said i was not going to have kids.
Why? Because I knew if I did I would not be able to just leave them with a nanny or anyone for long periods of time.
That if I had kids I would love them too much to just ditch them and do my stuff. That they would come first. Funny but I was right.
I wanted to travel and I did not want to have a child to worry about. I wanted to be selfish.
So I had lots of fun, I traveled and I did everything I wanted to do until I found Brian and I realized I wanted to have kids with this man and settle down.
I had my first at 36 and my second a few days before 40.
I think I am a much better mom because of it.
That is just my experience. People are different.
And It was not because I did not want to grow up. I was the kid that work since I was 14 years old.
But I just knew that I was going to be with my kids at all times and there was so much I wanted to do without them first.
I could not had taken a baby to a dog show every weekend showing dogs ( believe me I used to work for a handler and take care of her baby at the shows and it was neglect a lot! - ), I could not spend hours in the ocean surfing or diving.
Or hours Mountain biking. I would never leave my child to do those things.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- A person cannot grow up and mature without personal life
experience (a chance to make their own decisions, as well as their own
mistakes) and the freedom of space and time to do that. -=-
Holly, at 17, is more mature in most ways than her 24 year old
boyfriend.
I want to qualify that statement, but I'm not sure how. This
culture's definition of "mature" is warped, too.
She's more likely to be emotional in a situation or to become
frustrated, but I think that's her personality. She'll learn to
handle that more, but I don't see that Brett has ever been very quick
to react that way, even when he was little, from stories I've heard
and things his mom and grandmother have said. So that comparison
isn't any proof.
Holly's more enthusiastic about her job and conscientious about what
she wears.
Holly's better at making plans (probably a genetic/personality thing
too, to some extent).
Holly isn't as needy, socially or emotionally, in some ways, it seems.
When comparing two people, especially when one is one's own biological
child, lots of qualifications are necessary, it seems to me. <g>
Not only has Brett not been able to make choices and decisions, but
when he has he's been told he was wrong. So he's a little crippled in
the seeing life as opportunity area. He seems to see life as a
minefield of bad choices.
I'm not sure if I'm talking maturity or what, but whatever it is,
Holly's fine at 17. I think she was 14 the first time I realized that
she would make a good mom right then; anytime. All my kids would be
able to take care of another person or two. They would know how or
they would figure it out without a bunch of angst and whining.
In two weeks there'll be a chat with Ren Allen, and me, and others who
might show up and share, on the thoughts and issues concerning older
children, when they're at the moving-out-into-the-world stage.
http://sandradodd.com/chats/olderkids
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
experience (a chance to make their own decisions, as well as their own
mistakes) and the freedom of space and time to do that. -=-
Holly, at 17, is more mature in most ways than her 24 year old
boyfriend.
I want to qualify that statement, but I'm not sure how. This
culture's definition of "mature" is warped, too.
She's more likely to be emotional in a situation or to become
frustrated, but I think that's her personality. She'll learn to
handle that more, but I don't see that Brett has ever been very quick
to react that way, even when he was little, from stories I've heard
and things his mom and grandmother have said. So that comparison
isn't any proof.
Holly's more enthusiastic about her job and conscientious about what
she wears.
Holly's better at making plans (probably a genetic/personality thing
too, to some extent).
Holly isn't as needy, socially or emotionally, in some ways, it seems.
When comparing two people, especially when one is one's own biological
child, lots of qualifications are necessary, it seems to me. <g>
Not only has Brett not been able to make choices and decisions, but
when he has he's been told he was wrong. So he's a little crippled in
the seeing life as opportunity area. He seems to see life as a
minefield of bad choices.
I'm not sure if I'm talking maturity or what, but whatever it is,
Holly's fine at 17. I think she was 14 the first time I realized that
she would make a good mom right then; anytime. All my kids would be
able to take care of another person or two. They would know how or
they would figure it out without a bunch of angst and whining.
In two weeks there'll be a chat with Ren Allen, and me, and others who
might show up and share, on the thoughts and issues concerning older
children, when they're at the moving-out-into-the-world stage.
http://sandradodd.com/chats/olderkids
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=That if I had kids I would love them too much to just ditch them and
do my stuff. That they would come first. Funny but I was right.
I wanted to travel and I did not want to have a child to worry about.
I wanted to be selfish.
So I had lots of fun, I traveled and I did everything I wanted to do
until I found Brian and I realized I wanted to have kids with this man
and settle down.-=-
There's another good point. I'm all for birth control, personally.
I'm very much pro-choice in advance. The anti-abortion people focus
on abortion, but I like the abortion prevention of knowledge and
tools. Anyway; maybe too political.
Keith and I were together for eight years before we had Kirby. Six
years before we got married, a year of marriage before I broke my leg
(in the one small window when we had no insurance), and Keith took
care of me, and I got pregnant, and when Kirby was born we'd been
married two years and hanging out and having fun for eight years
altogether. We went on tons of road trips to SCA events in other
states, and general visiting-friends road trips to Utah and Texas and
Colorado. California. Oklahoma. Arizona. We partied and stayed
up all night singing sometimes at camp-outs. (Well I'd stay up all
night and Keith would wake up early and make us breakfast.)
I do think that being pregnant and then "having to" get married isn't
the kind of early relationship that will work out well, but being
encouraged in young love rather than thwarted is good. Helping kids
move into relationships openly and honestly rather than having to be
sneaky because the parents said no is pretty wonderful.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
do my stuff. That they would come first. Funny but I was right.
I wanted to travel and I did not want to have a child to worry about.
I wanted to be selfish.
So I had lots of fun, I traveled and I did everything I wanted to do
until I found Brian and I realized I wanted to have kids with this man
and settle down.-=-
There's another good point. I'm all for birth control, personally.
I'm very much pro-choice in advance. The anti-abortion people focus
on abortion, but I like the abortion prevention of knowledge and
tools. Anyway; maybe too political.
Keith and I were together for eight years before we had Kirby. Six
years before we got married, a year of marriage before I broke my leg
(in the one small window when we had no insurance), and Keith took
care of me, and I got pregnant, and when Kirby was born we'd been
married two years and hanging out and having fun for eight years
altogether. We went on tons of road trips to SCA events in other
states, and general visiting-friends road trips to Utah and Texas and
Colorado. California. Oklahoma. Arizona. We partied and stayed
up all night singing sometimes at camp-outs. (Well I'd stay up all
night and Keith would wake up early and make us breakfast.)
I do think that being pregnant and then "having to" get married isn't
the kind of early relationship that will work out well, but being
encouraged in young love rather than thwarted is good. Helping kids
move into relationships openly and honestly rather than having to be
sneaky because the parents said no is pretty wonderful.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I do think that being pregnant and then "having to" get married isn't
the kind of early relationship that will work out well, but being
encouraged in young love rather than thwarted is good. Helping kids
move into relationships openly and honestly rather than having to be
sneaky because the parents said no is pretty wonderful.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Absolutely.
I have something that I had been meaning to share with Sandra and its because of Holly and her relationship and the age difference.
When I was 17 I started dating a guy who was 25. Like me he was a handler in Brazil from a well known and wealthy family.
We had known each other since I was 13 and we had been friends, good friends than best friends for years.
He treated me great and we got along great. We were best friends.
It was my first serious relationship. He took my mom out for lunch and asked her for permission to date me.
He lived in another state. I traveled every weekend to the same dog shows all over the country and so did he.
We could sneak if we wanted to.
Even when we decided to have sex ( my first time ) we talked about it and he suggested I ask my mom to make an appointment with an ob-gyn
so she could take me and get birth control.
I was supported at home all the way.
How many girls had a first serious relationship as great as mine? Not many I know.
I could not have asked for anything better.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the kind of early relationship that will work out well, but being
encouraged in young love rather than thwarted is good. Helping kids
move into relationships openly and honestly rather than having to be
sneaky because the parents said no is pretty wonderful.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Absolutely.
I have something that I had been meaning to share with Sandra and its because of Holly and her relationship and the age difference.
When I was 17 I started dating a guy who was 25. Like me he was a handler in Brazil from a well known and wealthy family.
We had known each other since I was 13 and we had been friends, good friends than best friends for years.
He treated me great and we got along great. We were best friends.
It was my first serious relationship. He took my mom out for lunch and asked her for permission to date me.
He lived in another state. I traveled every weekend to the same dog shows all over the country and so did he.
We could sneak if we wanted to.
Even when we decided to have sex ( my first time ) we talked about it and he suggested I ask my mom to make an appointment with an ob-gyn
so she could take me and get birth control.
I was supported at home all the way.
How many girls had a first serious relationship as great as mine? Not many I know.
I could not have asked for anything better.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cheryl Etzel
>I thought this was interesting. They seem to assume that politicallyliberal parents produce liberal offspring, and politically conservative
parents produce conservative offspring. Got me to thinking about whether
this is generally true. My parents leaned to the right, and, of four
children, two are liberal, two conservative.
>Laura***
Yeah. And it also leaves out parents who alter their positions from far
left or right to center, or center to extreme - and then how that also can
affect children. I wonder what the statitistics say about these
questions?
-Cheryl
(who just finished Freakonomics) :)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Katheryn
I would imagine that some unschooled teens might marry young-ish
as they don't have as strong of a need to get out from their parents and
sow their wild oats for several years. Our kids have had so much
freedom and have been treated with respect, (like real people) that they
don't have to finally experience that at 18 and older.
Katheryn
as they don't have as strong of a need to get out from their parents and
sow their wild oats for several years. Our kids have had so much
freedom and have been treated with respect, (like real people) that they
don't have to finally experience that at 18 and older.
Katheryn
----- Original Message -----
From: Joanna Murphy
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 1:17 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Challenging article
Here is a link to an article that challenges the idea of delayed marriage.
http://www.laughyourway.com/blog/young-marriage/
At every turn, in my life, I seem to find challenges to the cultural ideas that everyone assumes to be right, and then when examined more deeply are exposed for what they are: just an idea that may or may not serve, and in fact often doesn't.
I thought this was interesting food for thought in relation to radically unschooling our teens as they transition into adulthood.
Joanna
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna Murphy
--- In [email protected], "Katheryn" <kaculwell@...> wrote:
Joanna
>Yeah--I was wondering about that as I read that article. Do the other parents of older teens/young adults have this perspective as well?
> I would imagine that some unschooled teens might marry young-ish
> as they don't have as strong of a need to get out from their parents and
> sow their wild oats for several years. Our kids have had so much
> freedom and have been treated with respect, (like real people) that they don't have to finally experience that at 18 and older.
>
Joanna
Joanna Murphy
--- In [email protected], Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
Joann
>That would typically be about 16-17.
> Teenage girls suffer, if that's the right word, from low fecundity. It takes about 5 years after starting menstruating for women to reach stable fertile menstrual cycles.
Joann
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I think that for an unschooler the time to get married will come when they are ready and have found the person they decide to commit to.
The right one for them.
\Not because of anything else.
Young, older it does not matter. They don;t have to get out of the house, prove anything or fill an empty void.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The right one for them.
\Not because of anything else.
Young, older it does not matter. They don;t have to get out of the house, prove anything or fill an empty void.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 3/11/2009 10:16 PM, Joanna Murphy wrote:
being happily married and being great parents. It won't at all surprise
me if they get married and have children younger than I did (married at
30, kids at 32, 35, and 39). I'm all for it. There are advantages to
young marriages and having children in your twenties, I think. I mean,
the advantage for me of having children later was that I had a career
and was able to move into high-paying part-time work after having kids,
so that was nice. But, still, I wish I was now ten years younger as I
look ahead toward grandchildren!!
-pam
> Yeah--I was wondering about that as I read that article. Do the other parents of older teens/young adults have this perspective as well?I also feel like my kids at 24, 21, and 18 are all quite capable of
>
being happily married and being great parents. It won't at all surprise
me if they get married and have children younger than I did (married at
30, kids at 32, 35, and 39). I'm all for it. There are advantages to
young marriages and having children in your twenties, I think. I mean,
the advantage for me of having children later was that I had a career
and was able to move into high-paying part-time work after having kids,
so that was nice. But, still, I wish I was now ten years younger as I
look ahead toward grandchildren!!
-pam
mauratracy
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Maura
> a year of marriage before I broke my leg.......and Keith tookNow this cracked me up! Just what kind of care did that broken leg require??!!
> care of me, and I got pregnant,
Maura
Schuyler
You are right. Apparently the average age in the U.S. is 12.6 years old, and in Iceland it's 13.06 years old. That puts the five year mark at about 17. So, if they are waiting for their ovulation to stabilize, women should be getting pregnant at 18. They aren't though. The average age for first birth in the U.S. is 25.2 years in 2005. In 1971 the average age was 21. In 1973 the age at first menstruation (menarche) was .34 years later than in 2005, so almost 13 years old. And even though J. Richard Urdy found in 1979 that earlier age at menarche predicted earlier age at first pregnancy, if not first birth, earlier national averages of age at first menarche isn't lowering national averages for age at first birth. That argues that reproductive readiness is not the true predictor of age at first pregnancy.
Sexual precociousness is usually found in non-human animals when the environment is risky. There is a beautiful study of Virginia Opossums by Steve Austad who compared the mortality risks of Opossums living on an island without cars and those on the mainland. The car-free Opossums not only had longer lifespans they also were less sexually precocious. They had a later age at first reproduction, at which point they were larger and had larger litter sizes. My memory is that the same biologist did a quick study of fish response to increased risk of predation. He whizzed up their predator fish and would put some of the au jus into the tank where they were living and the fish he was examining began to put energy into reproduction. David says that a guy named Stibor published similar findings (http://www.springerlink.com/content/k7855638848kt73h/) but that the story about Austad doing it, he had an office down the hall from one of David and my professor's, is
probably also true.
What it means is that environmental factors play a huge role in when someone reproduces. Putting energy into growth is really important. With girls we stop putting energy into growth once we start putting it into reproduction. Delaying age at menarche is a good thing with that in mind. Bruce Ellis has done research using a giant New Zealand database on factors predicting early age at menarche. One study he is second author on looks at father absence (http://tinyurl.com/d9xk7y) as a predictive factor in age at menarche. They found that younger sisters in households with a father who became an absentee father during their childhood had an earlier age at menarche by 11 months than their older sister. The same was not found in households with father presence. In another paper (http://cals.arizona.edu/fcs/fshd/people/ellis/publications/Ellis&Essex2007.pdf) he reports finding "Older age at menarche in mothers, higher socioeconomic status, greater mother-based
Parental Supportiveness, and lower third-grade body mass index each uniquely and significantly predicted later sexual development in daughters. Consistent with a life history perspective, quality of parental investment emerged as a centralfeature of the proximal family environment in relation to pubertal timing."
Jim Chisholm has written a book where he talks about asking women how long they think they'll live and compares it with their Sociosexuality Orientation Inventory (http://tinyurl.com/bh4459), a measure used to assess long term mating versus short term mating preferences. Women who believe they will live a shorter life are more likely to fall into short term mating preferences. Jim Chisholm also as a paper (http://tinyurl.com/bh4459) where he found "Women reporting more troubled family relations early in life had
earlier menarche, earlier first birth, were more likely to identify
with insecure adult attachment styles, and expected shorter lifespans."
Anyhow, all that is to say that age at first reproduction is not simply a biological readiness issue. It is clearly a gene x environment interaction affect, as is so much else.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Joanna Murphy <ridingmom@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, 12 March, 2009 5:17:41 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Challenging article
Sexual precociousness is usually found in non-human animals when the environment is risky. There is a beautiful study of Virginia Opossums by Steve Austad who compared the mortality risks of Opossums living on an island without cars and those on the mainland. The car-free Opossums not only had longer lifespans they also were less sexually precocious. They had a later age at first reproduction, at which point they were larger and had larger litter sizes. My memory is that the same biologist did a quick study of fish response to increased risk of predation. He whizzed up their predator fish and would put some of the au jus into the tank where they were living and the fish he was examining began to put energy into reproduction. David says that a guy named Stibor published similar findings (http://www.springerlink.com/content/k7855638848kt73h/) but that the story about Austad doing it, he had an office down the hall from one of David and my professor's, is
probably also true.
What it means is that environmental factors play a huge role in when someone reproduces. Putting energy into growth is really important. With girls we stop putting energy into growth once we start putting it into reproduction. Delaying age at menarche is a good thing with that in mind. Bruce Ellis has done research using a giant New Zealand database on factors predicting early age at menarche. One study he is second author on looks at father absence (http://tinyurl.com/d9xk7y) as a predictive factor in age at menarche. They found that younger sisters in households with a father who became an absentee father during their childhood had an earlier age at menarche by 11 months than their older sister. The same was not found in households with father presence. In another paper (http://cals.arizona.edu/fcs/fshd/people/ellis/publications/Ellis&Essex2007.pdf) he reports finding "Older age at menarche in mothers, higher socioeconomic status, greater mother-based
Parental Supportiveness, and lower third-grade body mass index each uniquely and significantly predicted later sexual development in daughters. Consistent with a life history perspective, quality of parental investment emerged as a centralfeature of the proximal family environment in relation to pubertal timing."
Jim Chisholm has written a book where he talks about asking women how long they think they'll live and compares it with their Sociosexuality Orientation Inventory (http://tinyurl.com/bh4459), a measure used to assess long term mating versus short term mating preferences. Women who believe they will live a shorter life are more likely to fall into short term mating preferences. Jim Chisholm also as a paper (http://tinyurl.com/bh4459) where he found "Women reporting more troubled family relations early in life had
earlier menarche, earlier first birth, were more likely to identify
with insecure adult attachment styles, and expected shorter lifespans."
Anyhow, all that is to say that age at first reproduction is not simply a biological readiness issue. It is clearly a gene x environment interaction affect, as is so much else.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Joanna Murphy <ridingmom@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, 12 March, 2009 5:17:41 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Challenging article
--- In [email protected], Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
>
> Teenage girls suffer, if that's the right word, from low fecundity. It takes about 5 years after starting menstruating for women to reach stable fertile menstrual cycles.
That would typically be about 16-17.
Joann
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
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Sandra Dodd
-=-Yeah--I was wondering about that as I read that article. Do the
other parents of older teens/young adults have this perspective as
well?-=-
I don't know if they're going to consider "marriage" to need to be
part of the deal. I see relationships. Kids from divorced families
are very wary of marriage-talk.
Holly had been saying she wasn't going to get married, like a couple
we know who've been together over 30 years. Now that couple is
getting married in June! <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
other parents of older teens/young adults have this perspective as
well?-=-
I don't know if they're going to consider "marriage" to need to be
part of the deal. I see relationships. Kids from divorced families
are very wary of marriage-talk.
Holly had been saying she wasn't going to get married, like a couple
we know who've been together over 30 years. Now that couple is
getting married in June! <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-> a year of marriage before I broke my leg.......and Keith took
require??!!-=-
Let that be a lesson in run-on sentences!
But seriously, I went off the pill because I had a cast from hip to
toe, and they had done plaster traction or some such--not surgery, but
setting the bone in place and keeping a tight, stretched cast on it.
So blood clots would've been Very Bad, and birth control pills
wouldn't help.
The first weekend the cast was short and I could bend my knee, Keith
and I went to Denver for a socio-political problem/solution, and I was
victorious against a dozen detractors, which caused some euphoria, and
it had been a while, and the woman we were staying with had given us
her fancy water-bed, candles-and-draperies bedroom for the evening,
and that was fun.
Oops:
http://sandradodd.com/kirby
Then Marty was planned, and later oops: Holly.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> care of me, and I got pregnant,-=-Now this cracked me up! Just what kind of care did that broken leg
require??!!-=-
Let that be a lesson in run-on sentences!
But seriously, I went off the pill because I had a cast from hip to
toe, and they had done plaster traction or some such--not surgery, but
setting the bone in place and keeping a tight, stretched cast on it.
So blood clots would've been Very Bad, and birth control pills
wouldn't help.
The first weekend the cast was short and I could bend my knee, Keith
and I went to Denver for a socio-political problem/solution, and I was
victorious against a dozen detractors, which caused some euphoria, and
it had been a while, and the woman we were staying with had given us
her fancy water-bed, candles-and-draperies bedroom for the evening,
and that was fun.
Oops:
http://sandradodd.com/kirby
Then Marty was planned, and later oops: Holly.
Sandra
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Pam Tellew
<<<Anyhow, all that is to say that age at first reproduction is not
simply a biological readiness issue. It is clearly a gene x
environment interaction affect, as is so much else.>>
Schuyler, I love how you feed my brain!
Pam
simply a biological readiness issue. It is clearly a gene x
environment interaction affect, as is so much else.>>
Schuyler, I love how you feed my brain!
Pam
Pam Sorooshian
On 3/12/2009 11:15 AM, Pam Tellew wrote:
same thing. I really like reading Schuyler's very objective research
reports. She knows just how much to give us to "feed our brains" and not
overload them.
-pam
> Schuyler, I love how you feed my brain!Sometimes Pam and I share more than our name. I was thinking the EXACT
>
> Pam
>
same thing. I really like reading Schuyler's very objective research
reports. She knows just how much to give us to "feed our brains" and not
overload them.
-pam
Meghan Anderson-Coates
<<<On 3/12/2009 11:15 AM, Pam Tellew wrote:
same thing. I really like reading Schuyler's very objective research
reports. She knows just how much to give us to "feed our brains" and not
overload them.
-pam>>>>
Well, you can add a 'Meghan' into that <g>. I love Schuyler's posts :-)
Meghan
"In the greater scheme, the big picture, nothing we do matters. There is no grand plan, no big win. If there's no great glorious end to all this--if nothing we do matters--then all that matters is what we do - Now - Today....If there's no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world."
~"Angel"
Season 2, Episode 16: Epiphany
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Schuyler, I love how you feed my brain!Sometimes Pam and I share more than our name. I was thinking the EXACT
>
> Pam
>
same thing. I really like reading Schuyler's very objective research
reports. She knows just how much to give us to "feed our brains" and not
overload them.
-pam>>>>
Well, you can add a 'Meghan' into that <g>. I love Schuyler's posts :-)
Meghan
"In the greater scheme, the big picture, nothing we do matters. There is no grand plan, no big win. If there's no great glorious end to all this--if nothing we do matters--then all that matters is what we do - Now - Today....If there's no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world."
~"Angel"
Season 2, Episode 16: Epiphany
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]