Interesting Article
Ward
I have not read the whole research paper yet but the summary in this blog raises some interesting issues. http://gaither.wordpress.com:80/2008/07/23/stroobant-on-homeschooling-school-resistant-children/
I was particularly interested to explore further the comment in the blog ; " Stroobant is particularly forceful in her critique of "unschooling" for its blindness to this coercive tendency. Her point is not that we need some sort of even freer alternative to homeschooling, but that there is simply no escaping the dynamics of power and coercion. "
Julie Ward
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I was particularly interested to explore further the comment in the blog ; " Stroobant is particularly forceful in her critique of "unschooling" for its blindness to this coercive tendency. Her point is not that we need some sort of even freer alternative to homeschooling, but that there is simply no escaping the dynamics of power and coercion. "
Julie Ward
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
claire.horsley08
This is the reply I posted at the blog mentioned above:
I enjoyed reading the very well-written summary of Stroobant's thesis on homeschooling school-resisting children. However, in defence of unschooling, I would say that most unschoolers are acutely aware of the constantly shifting power dynamics operating in their families. This is because most unschoolers have gone through a conscious and deliberate process of self-examination, looking honestly at how they interact with their child and how they can make these interactions more democratic, respectful and loving. While it is naive to think that any relationship operates in the absence of power, unschoolers strive for a `power-sharing' arrangement, in which each family member's voice is heard and weighed equally. The subtleties of coersion present a daily challenge for unschoolers as much as for any parent, however unschoolers consciously strive for co-operation rather than coersion, and encourage their children to be respectful, interesting and joyful by being respectful, interesting and joyful. Of course every parent consciously and unconsciously shapes their child; unschoolers try to always remain alert to how this process is unfolding, and deliberately choose a way of life in which the values of love, peace, and respect are paramount.
I enjoyed reading the very well-written summary of Stroobant's thesis on homeschooling school-resisting children. However, in defence of unschooling, I would say that most unschoolers are acutely aware of the constantly shifting power dynamics operating in their families. This is because most unschoolers have gone through a conscious and deliberate process of self-examination, looking honestly at how they interact with their child and how they can make these interactions more democratic, respectful and loving. While it is naive to think that any relationship operates in the absence of power, unschoolers strive for a `power-sharing' arrangement, in which each family member's voice is heard and weighed equally. The subtleties of coersion present a daily challenge for unschoolers as much as for any parent, however unschoolers consciously strive for co-operation rather than coersion, and encourage their children to be respectful, interesting and joyful by being respectful, interesting and joyful. Of course every parent consciously and unconsciously shapes their child; unschoolers try to always remain alert to how this process is unfolding, and deliberately choose a way of life in which the values of love, peace, and respect are paramount.
Joanna Murphy
Nice comment. I think that the researcher has a misunderstanding of unschooling, or an understanding that isn't based on what is going on on this list, at any rate.
I'm not trying to "share power equally" with my children, as an unschooler, but I did do that at the beginning as a way to shift my whole mindset. I no longer see that as the goal of unschooling--we've moved past issues of power struggle because we are operating more from a model of partnership where that isn't really a main concern.
But if a person is unschooling from that point of view, then they might be defensive about the suggestion that there is any "coersion" or "influence" going on in the relationship. Perhaps this is the researcher's understanding of unschoolers in general.
Joanna
I'm not trying to "share power equally" with my children, as an unschooler, but I did do that at the beginning as a way to shift my whole mindset. I no longer see that as the goal of unschooling--we've moved past issues of power struggle because we are operating more from a model of partnership where that isn't really a main concern.
But if a person is unschooling from that point of view, then they might be defensive about the suggestion that there is any "coersion" or "influence" going on in the relationship. Perhaps this is the researcher's understanding of unschoolers in general.
Joanna
--- In [email protected], "claire.horsley08" <claire.horsley08@...> wrote:
>
> This is the reply I posted at the blog mentioned above:
>
> I enjoyed reading the very well-written summary of Stroobant's thesis on homeschooling school-resisting children. However, in defence of unschooling, I would say that most unschoolers are acutely aware of the constantly shifting power dynamics operating in their families. This is because most unschoolers have gone through a conscious and deliberate process of self-examination, looking honestly at how they interact with their child and how they can make these interactions more democratic, respectful and loving. While it is naive to think that any relationship operates in the absence of power, unschoolers strive for a `power-sharing' arrangement, in which each family member's voice is heard and weighed equally. The subtleties of coersion present a daily challenge for unschoolers as much as for any parent, however unschoolers consciously strive for co-operation rather than coersion, and encourage their children to be respectful, interesting and joyful by being respectful, interesting and joyful. Of course every parent consciously and unconsciously shapes their child; unschoolers try to always remain alert to how this process is unfolding, and deliberately choose a way of life in which the values of love, peace, and respect are paramount.
>
Jenny C
> Nice comment. I think that the researcher has a misunderstanding ofunschooling, or an understanding that isn't based on what is going on on
this list, at any rate.
>I don't know about that... I am influencing my kids, consciously and
>
unconsciously. It's a part of the way humans are. I do think it's
inescapable. However, I'm open to being wrong...
I think what we are doing in our family is influence for the good, but
authoritarian parents feel that way too. The dad of my daughter's
friend thinks what we do is wrong and harmful and totally misguided,
which is the same way I feel about him.
However, I'm fully aware of the outcomes that each of our parenting
styles produce, while, I don't think he is, or if he is, he is fully
vested in the idea that children will be miserable and unhappy and it's
just a part of growing up that is inevitable. And perhaps that is the
difference, people really living unschooling SEE that there are hundreds
of outcomes and hundreds of choices to be made and that better is always
better, and influence is a good thing in that context. That it's more
about the process than the outcome, but through that process you can
achieve a positive outcome, especially if the goal is always to move
towards what is happy and fun???
Jenny C
he is fully
conversation that I had with Chamille last night.
She was incredibly frustrated while texting the above mentioned friend
because this friend was stuck in a mindset of inevitable outcome and no
matter how Chamille tried to share with her how it could be different,
this girl couldn't see it. We talked a lot about that last night, how
she was recreating her own family drama of inevitable "bad" outcomes and
that she was totally unaware that she was doing it, and because of that,
there really was very little Chamille could say to her that would help
her see it.
Chamille could see it plain as day, and to her the solution the
"problem" was very simple, it wasn't convoluted with extra drama and
side stepping of other issues and navigating this, that, or the other
thing, to get from point A to point B. She finally gave up and threw
the phone and said her friend just wasn't thinking clearly, which she
wasn't.
Then she went online and ended up talking to a newish online friend who
couldn't "get" the fact that she didn't go to school because she was
homeschooling. She said something like, "school doesn't seem to be
serving kids well... in the way they think". She kept rephrasing what
she was saying but this person kept asking her if she was a teacher.
They are both about the same age and he lives in CA, so it wasn't like
he was from another country that didn't have homeschooling. She read me
what was being said, and Chamille was very clear, but the message just
wasn't getting across. She said that not only does the school not serve
him well, his parents lie to him about everything.
One could say Chamille influences kids like that, and that makes sense
since kids influence each other a lot, especially when they are in
school. In many ways, Chamille's dad and I are still the biggest
influence in her life, where many of her friends try to avoid parental
influence. Perhaps that is the difference? The influence is accecpted
and in fact appreciated and reciprocal.
> vested in the idea that children will be miserable and unhappy andit's
> just a part of growing up that is inevitable. And perhaps that is thehundreds
> difference, people really living unschooling SEE that there are
> of outcomes and hundreds of choices to be made and that better isalways
> better, and influence is a good thing in that context.I'm responding to my own post here because it got me thinking about a
conversation that I had with Chamille last night.
She was incredibly frustrated while texting the above mentioned friend
because this friend was stuck in a mindset of inevitable outcome and no
matter how Chamille tried to share with her how it could be different,
this girl couldn't see it. We talked a lot about that last night, how
she was recreating her own family drama of inevitable "bad" outcomes and
that she was totally unaware that she was doing it, and because of that,
there really was very little Chamille could say to her that would help
her see it.
Chamille could see it plain as day, and to her the solution the
"problem" was very simple, it wasn't convoluted with extra drama and
side stepping of other issues and navigating this, that, or the other
thing, to get from point A to point B. She finally gave up and threw
the phone and said her friend just wasn't thinking clearly, which she
wasn't.
Then she went online and ended up talking to a newish online friend who
couldn't "get" the fact that she didn't go to school because she was
homeschooling. She said something like, "school doesn't seem to be
serving kids well... in the way they think". She kept rephrasing what
she was saying but this person kept asking her if she was a teacher.
They are both about the same age and he lives in CA, so it wasn't like
he was from another country that didn't have homeschooling. She read me
what was being said, and Chamille was very clear, but the message just
wasn't getting across. She said that not only does the school not serve
him well, his parents lie to him about everything.
One could say Chamille influences kids like that, and that makes sense
since kids influence each other a lot, especially when they are in
school. In many ways, Chamille's dad and I are still the biggest
influence in her life, where many of her friends try to avoid parental
influence. Perhaps that is the difference? The influence is accecpted
and in fact appreciated and reciprocal.
Joanna Murphy
--- In [email protected], "Jenny C" <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
Joanna
Joanna
>...I obviously wasn't clear, because I agree with you. What I was thinking had more to do with the researcher thinking that unschoolers didn't know that they were influencing their kids, which I thought was based on not really understsanding unschooling very well. But she got that impression from someone/somewhere, that unschoolers are a bit deluded, and think that we're outside of the sphere of influencing our kids.
>
>
> > Nice comment. I think that the researcher has a misunderstanding of
> unschooling, or an understanding that isn't based on what is going on on
> this list, at any rate.
> >
> >
>
>
> I don't know about that... I am influencing my kids, consciously and
> unconsciously. It's a part of the way humans are. I do think it's
> inescapable. However, I'm open to being wrong...
>
Joanna
Joanna
k
I commented too though it's in moderation so we'll see when it shows up.
Here's what I wrote:
couple of ways: by providing their children with as many options as possible
for making decisions and exploring the world; and by dredging out cultural
strongholds within their own psyche that prevent them from allowing options
usually thought to be inappropriate for children.
So that: while children are learning about how to use power, many
unschooling parents are unlearning a great deal about how to use it. If a
balance isn�t in play, people who understand more about influence and
personal power may take charge of situations better left to others. They
(the parents and other adults in a child�s life, in other words) may end up
doing too much while others (children) don�t know how important their input
is or feel at a loss about where and when they can act. Conventional
parenting often takes advantage of this built-in inequality between adults
and children, while unschoolers actively seek not to do so � all while
protecting and advocating for the safety and freedom that may be lacking in
the wider world for their children.
Unschoolers may fail in their endeavors, but that may not be for lack of
effort. It�s a lot of personal work really. [image: :)] Speaking as an
unschooler myself.
Thanks for reviewing Stroobant�s dissertation, Milton Gaither, and the
opportunity to post a comment. Pretty cool idea that she has touched on just
some of the points about schooling and schooling at home that so many
unschoolers talk about! Very exciting. <<
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Here's what I wrote:
>> Well that�s interesting about power dynamics. This is something whichmany unschoolers purposely admit and plan around. They do that in at least a
couple of ways: by providing their children with as many options as possible
for making decisions and exploring the world; and by dredging out cultural
strongholds within their own psyche that prevent them from allowing options
usually thought to be inappropriate for children.
So that: while children are learning about how to use power, many
unschooling parents are unlearning a great deal about how to use it. If a
balance isn�t in play, people who understand more about influence and
personal power may take charge of situations better left to others. They
(the parents and other adults in a child�s life, in other words) may end up
doing too much while others (children) don�t know how important their input
is or feel at a loss about where and when they can act. Conventional
parenting often takes advantage of this built-in inequality between adults
and children, while unschoolers actively seek not to do so � all while
protecting and advocating for the safety and freedom that may be lacking in
the wider world for their children.
Unschoolers may fail in their endeavors, but that may not be for lack of
effort. It�s a lot of personal work really. [image: :)] Speaking as an
unschooler myself.
Thanks for reviewing Stroobant�s dissertation, Milton Gaither, and the
opportunity to post a comment. Pretty cool idea that she has touched on just
some of the points about schooling and schooling at home that so many
unschoolers talk about! Very exciting. <<
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-This is because most unschoolers have gone through a conscious and
deliberate process of self-examination, looking honestly at how they
interact with their child and how they can make these interactions
more democratic, respectful and loving. While it is naive to think
that any relationship operates in the absence of power, unschoolers
strive for a `power-sharing' arrangement, in which each family
member's voice is heard and weighed equally. The subtleties of
coersion present a daily challenge for unschoolers as much as for any
parent, however unschoolers consciously strive for co-operation rather
than coersion, and encourage their children to be respectful,
interesting and joyful by being respectful, interesting and joyful. -=-
While I agree with much of that, I don't like "democratic" in
reference to how a family operates, and I bristled at the statements
about "unschoolers" as a group, because there ARE unschoolers who
think "non-coercive" and "democratic," but I'm not one of them.
It's good, when speaking for a group, not to speak for the group. <g>
It's good when speaking about anything, to qualify the statements to
"in my experience," or "from what I've seen and read" or "Many
unschoolers."
The most famous example for this is the three-legged dog. "Dogs have
four legs" is not a true statement. "Most dogs have four legs" is true.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
deliberate process of self-examination, looking honestly at how they
interact with their child and how they can make these interactions
more democratic, respectful and loving. While it is naive to think
that any relationship operates in the absence of power, unschoolers
strive for a `power-sharing' arrangement, in which each family
member's voice is heard and weighed equally. The subtleties of
coersion present a daily challenge for unschoolers as much as for any
parent, however unschoolers consciously strive for co-operation rather
than coersion, and encourage their children to be respectful,
interesting and joyful by being respectful, interesting and joyful. -=-
While I agree with much of that, I don't like "democratic" in
reference to how a family operates, and I bristled at the statements
about "unschoolers" as a group, because there ARE unschoolers who
think "non-coercive" and "democratic," but I'm not one of them.
It's good, when speaking for a group, not to speak for the group. <g>
It's good when speaking about anything, to qualify the statements to
"in my experience," or "from what I've seen and read" or "Many
unschoolers."
The most famous example for this is the three-legged dog. "Dogs have
four legs" is not a true statement. "Most dogs have four legs" is true.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- That it's more
about the process than the outcome, but through that process you can
achieve a positive outcome, especially if the goal is always to move
towards what is happy and fun???-=-
I'm thrilled about the positive outcomes of unschooling. I LOVE the
fact that it made me a better wife and a better dog owner.
I'm also deeply aware of the stance of the huge number of people who
think "happy" is to be saved as a reward for having suffered, and
"fun" is a sin.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
about the process than the outcome, but through that process you can
achieve a positive outcome, especially if the goal is always to move
towards what is happy and fun???-=-
I'm thrilled about the positive outcomes of unschooling. I LOVE the
fact that it made me a better wife and a better dog owner.
I'm also deeply aware of the stance of the huge number of people who
think "happy" is to be saved as a reward for having suffered, and
"fun" is a sin.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- She read me
what was being said, and Chamille was very clear, but the message just
wasn't getting across. She said that not only does the school not serve
him well, his parents lie to him about everything.-=-
That's like saying a teacher presented a lesson well, and so anyone
who was in the class was just lazy or uncooperative.
Maybe he didn't WANT to learn what she was teaching.
Maybe he didn't have any hooks to hang it on. He would need to know
and care and have a part of the picture for any more information to
connect to it.
I think telling a child who's in school that school is harming him and
his parents are lying isn't a good thing in any way. If he's happy,
he should be left alone.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
what was being said, and Chamille was very clear, but the message just
wasn't getting across. She said that not only does the school not serve
him well, his parents lie to him about everything.-=-
That's like saying a teacher presented a lesson well, and so anyone
who was in the class was just lazy or uncooperative.
Maybe he didn't WANT to learn what she was teaching.
Maybe he didn't have any hooks to hang it on. He would need to know
and care and have a part of the picture for any more information to
connect to it.
I think telling a child who's in school that school is harming him and
his parents are lying isn't a good thing in any way. If he's happy,
he should be left alone.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-= But she got that impression from someone/somewhere, that
unschoolers are a bit deluded, and think that we're outside of the
sphere of influencing our kids.-=-
Haven't you read things by unschoolers who ARE deluded in that way,
though? I have. And if they bring it here, people will remind them
that influence or inspiration or leading or providing interesting
things isn't a bad thing at all.
Some of them go to other places, though, where they get the "support"
of cooing agreement, and of repetition and of "Yes, you're right!" to
whatever a person writes or says.
Unfortunately, some of those people go out and speak and write and
make other unschoolers look deluded too.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
unschoolers are a bit deluded, and think that we're outside of the
sphere of influencing our kids.-=-
Haven't you read things by unschoolers who ARE deluded in that way,
though? I have. And if they bring it here, people will remind them
that influence or inspiration or leading or providing interesting
things isn't a bad thing at all.
Some of them go to other places, though, where they get the "support"
of cooing agreement, and of repetition and of "Yes, you're right!" to
whatever a person writes or says.
Unfortunately, some of those people go out and speak and write and
make other unschoolers look deluded too.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
> -=- She read meserve
> what was being said, and Chamille was very clear, but the message just
> wasn't getting across. She said that not only does the school not
> him well, his parents lie to him about everything.-=-That was just exactly it! What she said, she said to me, not him...
>
> That's like saying a teacher presented a lesson well, and so anyone
> who was in the class was just lazy or uncooperative.
> Maybe he didn't WANT to learn what she was teaching.
>
> Maybe he didn't have any hooks to hang it on. He would need to know
> and care and have a part of the picture for any more information to
> connect to it.
that was part of the whole conversation, that you can't make someone see
something that they are completely blind to! One can rephrase and
rephrase a badillion times, but if the person on the other end of the
communication isn't open to getting it, they just aren't. Sometimes,
though, those ideas will sink in and one day they'll be understadable.
Some little connection, some trigger of some sort and then you get an
"ah ha" moment.
Sandra Dodd
-=-Sometimes,
though, those ideas will sink in and one day they'll be understadable.
-=-Some little connection, some trigger of some sort and then you get an
"ah ha" moment.-=-
I think of those as "time release" situations. <g>
Sometimes if someone takes in an idea, however vague, and even if they
take it in to remember how stupid they think it is, things might
unfold within them to the point that the idea they've been carrying
around becomes useful, or even "truth," even though then once
considered it nonsense.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
though, those ideas will sink in and one day they'll be understadable.
-=-Some little connection, some trigger of some sort and then you get an
"ah ha" moment.-=-
I think of those as "time release" situations. <g>
Sometimes if someone takes in an idea, however vague, and even if they
take it in to remember how stupid they think it is, things might
unfold within them to the point that the idea they've been carrying
around becomes useful, or even "truth," even though then once
considered it nonsense.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna Murphy
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -= But she got that impression from someone/somewhere, that
> unschoolers are a bit deluded, and think that we're outside of the
> sphere of influencing our kids.-=-
>
> Haven't you read things by unschoolers who ARE deluded in that way,
> though? I have. And if they bring it here, people will remind them
> that influence or inspiration or leading or providing interesting
> things isn't a bad thing at all.
>
> Some of them go to other places, though, where they get the "support"
> of cooing agreement, and of repetition and of "Yes, you're right!" to
> whatever a person writes or says.
>
> Unfortunately, some of those people go out and speak and write and
> make other unschoolers look deluded too.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Joanna Murphy
> Haven't you read things by unschoolers who ARE deluded in that way,LOL--yes. Drives me nuts, because that way of thinking/being just doesn't seem like a natural way to be with kids. Makes 'em cranky, in my experience.
> though? I have. And if they bring it here, people will remind them
> that influence or inspiration or leading or providing interesting
> things isn't a bad thing at all.
>
And, thinking about the non-coersion piece, there are times every so often when my husband "coerces" me about something or other. It doesn't feel good in the moment, but if he's actually done that, he's almost always right. And later I realize it. And vice-versa. Sometimes I need a pretty hard nudge!
Joanna