[email protected]

Wyl (10 next month) was asking me questions from the back seat a week ago.
The first one being, "Mama... What's pot do?" Not being exactly sure what he
was talking about and wanting to buy time, I said, "Cook broccoli?" That was
definitely not the "pot" he meant. "No, I mean the drug." Hmmm... well, we had
a frank series of questions and answers (involving words like "pot,
'shrooms, smack, blow") and I tried to be as wide-ranging as I could in the moment (I
really was not expecting this kind of talk already, nor from this angle),
touching on illegal/recreational drugs, addiction, unpredictability, the money
involved in illegal drugs and a few other things that aren't coming to mind
now. It all went pretty well, I think, except very near the end when he said,
"So, you've never taken drugs, Mama?" I felt like a lug, sidestepping the
issue, but I said, "I take drugs every day, Wyl. Each morning, I take my
synthroid medication." I knew that's not what he meant and I bet he suspects at
least a teeny bit that I was sidestepping, but I wanted to get some input from
others, first.

I don't want to pass along the idea that it's harmless or perfectly fine to
smoke pot because "Mama did when she was younger", but I definitely want to
be honest, too. I didn't have any horrible experiences to set a "warning" on
(if I even wanted to do that, but it seems preachy at any rate), and I really
wasn't up for discussing it with Storm (4) sitting right beside him. Maybe
that's heeding old tapes, I don't know... I thought about treating it as I
would alcohol, nicotine and other things that have *always* been part of our
conversation-or at least for as long as I can remember... but those things
aren't illegal. I'm unsure if that makes a big difference or not... It's taken me
a while to ask, because I wasn't sure if I wanted to ask the adults here or
the kids on Cameron's "Offspring" group, but since there are so many youngers
there, I figured here was better. I'm not really scared or anything, just
uncertain, so I thought I'd ask for some guidance and words of wisdom. Thanks.

Peace,
De
_http://and-the-kitchen-sink.blogspot.com/_
(http://and-the-kitchen-sink.blogspot.com/)
_http://whatshappeningwiththesmiths.blogspot.com/_
(http://whatshappeningwiththesmiths.blogspot.com/)

**************Need a job? Find employment help in your area.
(http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Wyl (10 next month) was asking me questions from the back seat a week ago.
The first one being, "Mama... What's pot do?" Not being exactly sure what he
was talking about and wanting to buy time, I said, "Cook broccoli?" That was
definitely not the "pot" he meant. "No, I mean the drug." Hmmm... well, we had
a frank series of questions and answers (involving words like "pot,
'shrooms, smack, blow") and I tried to be as wide-ranging as I could in the moment (I
really was not expecting this kind of talk already, nor from this angle),
touching on illegal/recreational drugs, addiction, unpredictability, the money
involved in illegal drugs and a few other things that aren't coming to mind
now. It all went pretty well, I think, except very near the end when he said,
"So, you've never taken drugs, Mama?" I felt like a lug, sidestepping the
issue, but I said, "I take drugs every day, Wyl. Each morning, I take my
synthroid medication." I knew that's not what he meant and I bet he suspects at
least a teeny bit that I was sidestepping, but I wanted to get some input from
others, first.

I don't want to pass along the idea that it's harmless or perfectly fine to
smoke pot because "Mama did when she was younger", but I definitely want to
be honest, too. I didn't have any horrible experiences to set a "warning" on
(if I even wanted to do that, but it seems preachy at any rate), and I really
wasn't up for discussing it with Storm (4) sitting right beside him. Maybe
that's heeding old tapes, I don't know... I thought about treating it as I
would alcohol, nicotine and other things that have *always* been part of our
conversation-or at least for as long as I can remember... but those things
aren't illegal. I'm unsure if that makes a big difference or not... It's taken me
a while to ask, because I wasn't sure if I wanted to ask the adults here or
the kids on Cameron's "Offspring" group, but since there are so many youngers
there, I figured here was better. I'm not really scared or anything, just
uncertain, so I thought I'd ask for some guidance and words of wisdom. Thanks.

Peace,
De
_http://and-the-kitchen-sink.blogspot.com/_
(http://and-the-kitchen-sink.blogspot.com/)
_http://whatshappeningwiththesmiths.blogspot.com/_
(http://whatshappeningwiththesmiths.blogspot.com/)

**************Need a job? Find employment help in your area.
(http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-. I'm unsure if that makes a big difference or not... It's taken me
a while to ask, because I wasn't sure if I wanted to ask the adults
here or
the kids on Cameron's "Offspring" group, but since there are so many
youngers
there, I figured here was better. I'm not really scared or anything,
just
uncertain, so I thought I'd ask for some guidance and words of wisdom.
Thanks. -=-

Please don't ask it there, because it's one thing for parents to know
their kids use pot and not "Do anything about it" but it's a whole
different thing for other people to ask them to put it in writing in
public. Kids (even teens and young adults) don't always know the
potential dangers of that sort of information being in public. And
in some states it's barely illegal, and in some states you can be put
in prison. Arizona's very bad. Last I knew, if a man was put in
prison in Texas, he's circumcised (if he isn't already). I don't know
if it's still true, but this is BIGtime.

So please don't be asking for any details like who's said and done
what that's illegal. it's probably better discussed in person, in
private. Seriously.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

... I thought about treating it as I
> would alcohol, nicotine and other things that have *always* been part
of our
> conversation-or at least for as long as I can remember... but those
things
> aren't illegal.

They are just as illegal for a kid as other drugs are! I've had a lot
of conversations about drugs and alcohol with both of my kids, and some
of it has revolved around the prohibition. What makes some things legal
and not others, what made people think alcohol needed to be banned? Did
it work? How has it impacted society? Is it fair to tax cigarettes?
Are cigarettes bad and why is it, is it tobacco, or is the fact that it
has severe health impacts for a lot of people? Then we can look at all
the relatives we have personally that smoked until they were very old,
with no ill health effects related to smoking.

I live in OR and maybe that makes a difference and maybe not, but pot is
very available. If I wanted to buy some tomorrow, I could easily do it.
I know many many people that smoke it and a lot of people grow it around
here. Most of them aren't highschool kids, they are working
professionals with degrees.

The war on drugs really hasn't done anything to curb drug usage, in
fact, the way I see it, it's made it worse and more dangerous. The new
era of drug use is all legal anyway, pharmacueticals are much bigger
with the younger generation than cocaine. That started in the 80's, I
think, and just continued to get bigger and more popular as it was
easier to attain.

Watch the movie "Blow <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0221027/> ". Well,
preview it first, it's pretty intense. It's a good drug movie, one that
sparked a lot of questions and understandings about drug culture. (And
it has Johnny Depp in it.... so of course it must be good right?)

Another drug movie, Party Monster, really showed the whole rise and fall
of drug use, in the 80's rave fashion, clubbing world. I don't
necessarily recommend that one for a number of reasons, but my daughter
loved it. It has a lot of very graphic drug and sex things in the
movie. (it's a true story too.)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Watch the movie "Blow <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0221027/> ". Well,
preview it first, it's pretty intense. It's a good drug movie, one that
sparked a lot of questions and understandings about drug culture. (And
it has Johnny Depp in it.... so of course it must be good right?)

-=-Another drug movie, Party Monster, really showed the whole rise and
fall
of drug use, in the 80's rave fashion, clubbing world. I don't
necessarily recommend that one for a number of reasons, but my daughter
loved it. It has a lot of very graphic drug and sex things in the
movie. (it's a true story too.)-=-

That's a good way to approach it--side by side rather than face to
face, maybe. <g>
Easy Rider is very drug-heavy.
Holly likes Dazed and Confused.

You could talk about what's going on in the movies, and connect it
lightly to stories you know, without a full-out confessions of
everywhere and with whom you ever engaged in anything illegal.

The first few times my kids asked anything, I was directly vague. I
said "Lots of people did in the 60's" or "Some people lived through
the 60's and never touched it." True statements. They used to stay
with relatives sometimes, where it was out in a tray on the table all
the time (pot, not cocaine) and the kids never knew or cared or asked.

Kirby said the first time he was around anyone smoking marijuana he
laughed, because he totally recognized the smell from his dad's
friend's house and related outings and places.

I understand the "I'm in Oregon" attitude, because New Mexico has
never been very scary, but we're nestled between Arizona and Texas,
and too many locals become complacent here and get in SERIOUS trouble
passing through AZ or TX. A friend of a friend is in jail in Texas
right now, partly because of having a sword. Texas also has bizarrely
strict weapons laws.

Lots of aspects of the question can be discussed without personal
revelations.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/3/2009 2:07:03 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Sandra@... writes:

<<<Please don't ask it there, because it's one thing for parents to know
their kids use pot and not "Do anything about it" but it's a whole
different thing for other people to ask them to put it in writing in
public. Kids (even teens and young adults) don't always know the
potential dangers of that sort of information being in public. And
in some states it's barely illegal, and in some states you can be put
in prison. >>>



No, I had already decided not to ask there, but I was talking more
theoretical in what I was considering (and thought better of), such as: how would you
feel if your parents told you they had done something like smoke pot when
they were younger, before you were born? Not asking people about their personal
experiences, more theory and feelings and trust and that sort of thing. But,
I won't post there.

Good idea to put that out there, though, for those that don't know and for
people like me, who tend to have it on the back burner and sometimes forget.

Peace,
De
**************Need a job? Find employment help in your area.
(http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Brad Holcomb

> Last I knew, if a man was put in
> prison in Texas, he's circumcised (if he isn't already). I don't know
> if it's still true, but this is BIGtime.

I spent 5 minutes googling variations of "texas (prisoner,prison)
(circumcised,circumcision,circumcise) law" and can't find any specific
mentions of a law allowing prison officials to forcibly circumcise a new
prisoner in Texas, past or present. -=b.

k

>>>> Lots of aspects of the question can be discussed without personal
revelations. <<<<

Though there can be a curiosity about the experience of others, the best
answers to such questions don't seem to be about individual experiences.
With movies, true or fictionalized, a child can feel free to accept or
reject the behavior or opinion of people on drugs.

There's more at stake when hearing about the experience of those a child
knows and/or is very close to. A child may not really want to know that
even if they wonder.

The questions are aimed at finding out basic info, if it's a big deal or
not, if it's worth it, etc. All of which I don't think are answered by
personal confessions or stories about one's experience. Experience is
highly subjective in the first place, and I think memories can be even more
subjective.

I don't think this book is for someone Wyl's age, yet it helped me to put
some things into perspective about drug use that I had been confused on for
a while:* *Over The Influence: the harm reduction guide for managing drugs
and alcohol by Patt Denning, Jeannie Little, Adina Glickman. It's an
even-handed sane book about an oversensationalized subject. Maybe a book
for a parent to read or skim through for themselves.

I like the movie idea that Sandra mentioned. And anyway, as prevalent as
drug use is, everybody probably knows of people in one's community whose
lives have been impacted by risk behaviors associated with drug use, and
other experiences of that nature, right?

~Katherine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Verna

I dont know the answer to your question. will have to deal with it one
day I am sure, being that we have 4 kids. A few days ago I asked my
oldest (7) what he would do if someone offered him a cigerette. We
were talking about different situations and good responces to them. He
said, "smoke it". I was a little surprised and asked him why, to which
he replied, "cause I have never smoked one and wonder what it is
like". Soooo there you go.

Lyla Wolfenstein

i personally think that when kids ask, they are ready for info - honest info. and i have always been honest and answered questions my kids have asked me about my past, but always qualifying it with more information. i also think we are seen as more knowledgeable and a good source of info if we are open about our personal experiences - as long as we aren't glorifying it...just providing information, like with any other subject. i have also found that, almost without fail, if my daughter brings something up - asking me if *i* have ever done something in particular - it almost always means she is encountering that same something in her life- either in reality or in conversation or reading, etc. - and is needed help thinking about it and exploring it.

warmly, Lyla

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

Warning: some very very sad stuff. And some emphasis on the importance of
information vs. opinion sharing.
.....
.....
.....
.....
.....
.....
.....
.....

A family member who was on drugs for years died young. His biological mom
rejected him and, no small thing either, he had muscular dystrophy. My
guess is that he was also self medicating to replace treatment for his
condition that he despised as well as for mental health reasons. He spent
lots of time in and out of various prison hospitals for burglary and things
of that nature. His adopted mom wished she knew anything he could do to
decrease the risk involved in doing drugs. She spent a good bit of time at
her wit's end. She just wasn't part of that world and didn't have the
information.

I ran into the same thing, being concerned for people I care about. I
wanted to know what I could do to protect myself better and help them if
possible. Turns out that there are some options.

Personal experience is enough info if it answers problems like the above. I
would hazard a guess that most people who have some experience probably
don't know enough for their experience to be of much informational value.
It's great for sharing personal values and opinion. That's not always
enough though. Which is why I posted the name of a book that did help me.
It has good information. Information that might help some people.

~Katherine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

diana jenner

You watch Family Guy, I see on a separate post -- watch the Toad Licking
episode together ;) lots of fodder for this very conversation. ::vbg::

I started the drug talk pretty early in our house, too. For me, it's kind of
informed consent in our everyday consumption (and I thought I was being
informative... these were the years before unschooling found me ;)) - Mama's
Red Can contains drugs, pure and simple. Caffeine is a strong stimulant, it
is indeed a drug. (and it helps one poop!) Common - yes, accepted - yes, not
talked about - sadly, yes. I don't use the term "drugs and alcohol" because
alcohol *IS* a drug, a very fun-at-times depressant. Drugs are drugs are
drugs. Different effects in different doses in different situations in
different people at different times in life. That's a truth. Drugs are
everywhere, hypocricy about drugs is everywhere. Truth is the best thing you
can offer. With a balance of information, pros and cons. Just as I think
that Sex Information *is* birth control, I think Drug Information is
personal responsibility. If one says Cocaine kills (as it has) and someone
witnesses cocaine use that *doesn't* result in death. That statement is an
lie of omission - it's not full of useful information with which one can be
expected to make a reasonable responsible personal decision. In that
instance any previous wisdom shared is moot.

Then the societal component is the government of the United States has
decided that instead of allowing the people access to all the drugs there
are, some drugs are forbidden. This can lead to a conversation about hemp
in america, levi-strauss, Howard Hughes, the cotton industry, the FDA
(nutrasweet vs sativa is a good story) OPEC, NORML, Christopher Columbus
(who's sails and ropes were of the finest european hemp), Amsterdam, the
farmers of the midwest during the war were paid to grow hemp, hemp is grown
each year on the Pine Ridge Reservation by Henry John Red Cloud (which could
lead to 10 million conversations right there), medical cards in CA and OR,
medical benefits, oil soluable chemicals, on and on and on...

I'm very matter of fact. Hayden's experienced a lot of different situations
in his life, he's asked questions, he's gathered answers, he has plenty of
anecdotal information with which to make his own decisions when that time
comes. I imagine I will be a large part of the decision to use process.
I take great care to not be hypocrytical with my information. I'm honest
(and age-appropriate) and I use the term medicate when talking about any
drug use - aha! yet another 12 billion connections with the true medical
value of most illicit drugs :) Coca-cola had cocaine, to help housewives
have enough energy to do the ironing happily. Opiate-sythetics are used
medicinally (because they can be pantented and profited from) and are quite
popular by prescription. Hell, even heroin has it's benefits; I *can*
imagine the kind of pain required to desire the relief from Heroin. I didn't
do it, I'm scared to death of it, I'm not willing to commit my LIFE to it,
but by golly, I've been so deep in the barrell of pain I *wanted* the sweet
relief it I knew I could provide, if only temporarily. I'm far past that
now, it was a quick and powerful moment in my life.
We went to a going away party for Scotty, when we moved. I told Hayden (then
8) it was a Keg and informed him folks would probably be standing around
smoking pot. Our car ride home conversation:
H: There were drugs at the party
D: That's why we told you beforehand...
H: No mom, not just beer and pot, there was cocaine and acid.
D: Really?! How do you know? Did you see it?
H: No, in the kitchen someone said, "you shouldn't combine cocaine and
acid" ... why not?
D: Well cocaine creates a euphoric high, with lots of energy and acid
creates hallucinations which may be tough to deal by themselves, let alone
when you're possibly jittery from the coke. Not a safe experiment,
necessarily. Coke's pretty easy to overdose on, one must be really careful
if they're using.
H: Cool. So when we get home, can we.... [off to another subject]

It does help to be in Oregon :) I like to say in our town, if you dont'
smoke pot, you probably live downwind from someone who does :D
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com


On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 10:42 AM, <Sanguinegirl83@...> wrote:

> Wyl (10 next month) was asking me questions from the back seat a week
> ago.
> The first one being, "Mama... What's pot do?" Not being exactly sure what
> he
> was talking about and wanting to buy time, I said, "Cook broccoli?" That
> was
> definitely not the "pot" he meant. "No, I mean the drug." Hmmm... well, we
> had
> a frank series of questions and answers (involving words like "pot,
> 'shrooms, smack, blow") and I tried to be as wide-ranging as I could in the
> moment (I
> really was not expecting this kind of talk already, nor from this angle),
> touching on illegal/recreational drugs, addiction, unpredictability, the
> money
> involved in illegal drugs and a few other things that aren't coming to mind
>
> now. It all went pretty well, I think, except very near the end when he
> said,
> "So, you've never taken drugs, Mama?" I felt like a lug, sidestepping the
> issue, but I said, "I take drugs every day, Wyl. Each morning, I take my
> synthroid medication." I knew that's not what he meant and I bet he
> suspects at
> least a teeny bit that I was sidestepping, but I wanted to get some input
> from
> others, first.
>
> I don't want to pass along the idea that it's harmless or perfectly fine to
>
> smoke pot because "Mama did when she was younger", but I definitely want to
>
> be honest, too. I didn't have any horrible experiences to set a "warning"
> on
> (if I even wanted to do that, but it seems preachy at any rate), and I
> really
> wasn't up for discussing it with Storm (4) sitting right beside him. Maybe
> that's heeding old tapes, I don't know... I thought about treating it as I
> would alcohol, nicotine and other things that have *always* been part of
> our
> conversation-or at least for as long as I can remember... but those things
> aren't illegal. I'm unsure if that makes a big difference or not... It's
> taken me
> a while to ask, because I wasn't sure if I wanted to ask the adults here or
>
> the kids on Cameron's "Offspring" group, but since there are so many
> youngers
> there, I figured here was better. I'm not really scared or anything, just
> uncertain, so I thought I'd ask for some guidance and words of wisdom.
> Thanks.
>
> ith fiber.
> .
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

diana jenner

> A family member who was on drugs for years died young. His biological mom
> rejected him and, no small thing either, he had muscular dystrophy. My
> guess is that he was also self medicating to replace treatment for his
> condition that he despised as well as for mental health reasons. He spent
> lots of time in and out of various prison hospitals for burglary and things
> of that nature. His adopted mom wished she knew anything he could do to
> decrease the risk involved in doing drugs. She spent a good bit of time at
> her wit's end. She just wasn't part of that world and didn't have the
> information.
>
> .
>
>
>

I don't think it's fair to children to tell these stories in general "drugs"
terms... I'm sure this person medicated with dangerous drugs with benefits
that obviously outweighed the risks, ultimately ending in his life.
Please use the real names of drugs, real dangers, real benefits, real
reasons why real people would possibly want the medicine the drug provides.
Fear mongering and generalizations are, IMNSHO, more dangerous than *drugs*
anyday.

I once saw a sign that said "DARE*, sponsored by Pepsi" I didn't know
whether to giggle, scream or cry :-/
(*Drug Awareness Resistance Education - Government drug propaganda in
American public schools)
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

diana jenner

> I don't think this book is for someone Wyl's age, yet it helped me to put
> some things into perspective about drug use that I had been confused on for
> a while:* *Over The Influence: the harm reduction guide for managing drugs
> and alcohol by Patt Denning, Jeannie Little, Adina Glickman. It's an
> even-handed sane book about an oversensationalized subject. Maybe a book
> for a parent to read or skim through for themselves.
>

From Chocolate to Morphine: everything you need to know about mind-altering
drugs by Andrew Weil
http://books.google.com/books?id=p6zyPxi4PYoC&dq=from+chocolate+to+morphine&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=Dc2tSbrzMIKOsQO-66G7DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result

*Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do* : The Absurdity of Consensual Crimes in
Our Free Country by Peter McWilliams
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ain%27t_Nobody%27s_Business_If_You_Do

Both have shaped how I talk about drugs :) and other absurd consensual
crimes in our free country :::vbg:::
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Please use the real names of drugs, real dangers, real benefits, real
reasons why real people would possibly want the medicine the drug
provides.
Fear mongering and generalizations are, IMNSHO, more dangerous than
*drugs*
anyday.-=-

Uh..... No they're not.
I have a nephew who will either continue in the outpatient heroin
program he's in, or he will go to prison. Perhaps he was
insufficiently warned.

If people are going to argue about how we can talk about drugs, maybe
we can't talk about drugs. It might be that the differences in laws
are SO great that we're arguing apples, oranges and bananas.

If we can talk about it in terms of natural learning and mindful
parenting, let's do that.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I like the movie idea that Sandra mentioned.-=-

I agreed and expanded, but it was someone else's original mention.

-=-And anyway, as prevalent as
drug use is, everybody probably knows of people in one's community whose
lives have been impacted by risk behaviors associated with drug use, and
other experiences of that nature, right?-=-

"Impacted" is too light a word. Ruined. Destroyed. Killed.

Yet my own personal stories are all flowery peace'n'love and non-
disasterous. So my personal recollections don't make it seem nearly
scary enough. The side stories of friends homeless from crack and
speed... killed in drug deals (more my sister's friends on that
list). NOT making it seem good.

I think discussions based on fictional characters are safer, socially
and legally. I think factual non-sensationalized neutral information
is better than photos of death or stories of having the giggles two
hours into an LSD trip in a safe environment. None of the old-days
stories matter anymore anyway, because the prices are way high and the
stakes are even higher, for dealers now. We're close enough to Mexico
here that the danger of the wars in Juarez aren't very foreign or
distant.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

diana jenner

On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 4:49 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> -=-Please use the real names of drugs, real dangers, real benefits, real
> reasons why real people would possibly want the medicine the drug
> provides. Fear mongering and generalizations are, IMNSHO, more dangerous
> than *drugs*anyday.-=-
>
> Uh..... No they're not.
> I have a nephew who will either continue in the outpatient heroin
> program he's in, or he will go to prison. Perhaps he was
> insufficiently warned.
>
> If people are going to argue about how we can talk about drugs, maybe
> we can't talk about drugs. It might be that the differences in laws
> are SO great that we're arguing apples, oranges and bananas.
>
> If we can talk about it in terms of natural learning and mindful
> parenting, let's do that.
>
>
>
>

Maybe it's just the pathway my thoughts take, but I see someone like your
nephew, for example, who is hooked on Heroin. Chances are, not the first
mind altering chemical he tried - H isn't known as much of a gateway drug.
So perhaps he was told, as I'm sure he lived through life after Nancy
Regan's Just Say NO campaign with the rest of us: Drugs are Bad. Then he
went out into the world and he tried some drugs that really weren't so bad,
in his experience; maybe a beer here, a joint there. So he's lost faith in
those who told him Drugs are Bad in general terms, without truly discussion
drugs with names and their effects and with honesty and connection in a
loving relationship with a parent (or other super trusted adult). If those
same Drugs are Bad people try to warn him away from Heroin, where is their
credibility? They've already lied by omitting the true information about the
Bad Drugs of which they spoke. That credibility is very important to me. I
want to be honest and open, information is power. At least, should Hayden
use, I will be comfortable in knowing he is informed. At our house, Heroin
is described as a lifetime commitment, not a recreational toy. We've talked
of the heroin program in Amsterdam. You're not alone in wishing your nephew
had lived a happier life, one without the need for this powerful
medication. I hope he finds the salve he needs to heal his underlying
wounds. Is this the musician nephew?

~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com


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Sandra Dodd

-=-At our house, Heroin
is described as a lifetime commitment, not a recreational toy-=-

The commitment of a pretty short life.

I realize you asked me to more directly identify someone, Diana, but
I'm wondering why.

Seriously, people, too much can be said too easily. The answer to
your specific question is no, but the more important thing is you
shouldn't be asking.

Sandra

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Sandra Dodd

>
> If we can talk about it in terms of natural learning and mindful
> parenting, let's do that.
>

There are places where it's so illegal it probably shouldn't be
discussed here at all.
There are families with legal precariousness for whom discussions such
as these could potentially cause loss of custody.

It's just not worth frolicking in what-ifs if people are going to
start talking about particulars.

There are way over 1000 people on the list and none of us can see them
all.

Sandra

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diana jenner

On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 5:23 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> -=-At our house, Heroin
> is described as a lifetime commitment, not a recreational toy-=-
>
> The commitment of a pretty short life.
>







We stopped shooting for a long life in our house a loooong time ago. Happy
is our goal.




> I realize you asked me to more directly identify someone, Diana, but
> I'm wondering why..
>
>
>
honestly? hoping for a happy interlude to the story. You're right,
inappropriate here, I'm sorry.

It is all too easy for me to forget this isn't a discussion group of my
intimate friends, thanks for the reminder that there are many others who ar
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com


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Sandra Dodd

-=-We stopped shooting for a long life =-

Oooh....
Freud strikes at the heart of the matter. Maybe don't say "shooting"
about heroin. <g>




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k

>>>> I don't think it's fair to children to tell these stories in general
"drugs"
terms... I'm sure this person medicated with dangerous drugs with benefits
that obviously outweighed the risks, ultimately ending in his life.
Please use the real names of drugs, real dangers, real benefits, real
reasons why real people would possibly want the medicine the drug provides.
Fear mongering and generalizations are, IMNSHO, more dangerous than *drugs*
anyday. <<<<

Not intending to hide or talk about drugs as some amoebic mass or lump
everything together. Not that it matters to anybody here about the people I
was talking about. Had I been talking to Karl I might have told him about
the friends I know more about.. not the cousin whose use of many different
substance which were kept a mystery to me by my own folks who honestly
probably had little knowledge themselves.

The risks I alluded to are not limited just to one's own bodily harm. The
risks to one's pocketbook, of relationships with others who might turn you
in, to one's sanity, one's freedom, of being controlled by others who put
one in to dry out or whatever against one's will (which may not take), of
prison sentencing, of limiting oneself and the kinds of people one can
befriend or love. Also the risk of not being such a good social outlet for
people who need a social life and happen to get involved with what one is
doing because it's there (like Mount Everest) or because one insists in
order to get funds for one's substance.

The risk to one's children who go without food, shelter, clothes, stability,
happiness and friends in favor of a substance. For a parent, I don't see
any benefit there to outweigh those particular risks. Feeling unable to
break away for oneself or those one loves because one doesn't realize it's
possible to control the level of involvement with a substance so that the
quality of life doesn't go all the way to nonexistent.

I don't subscribe to the theory that pot is a drug gateway. People can be
though.

It's different if people aren't getting messed over and take good care of
themselves

All kinds of risks that at first blush may not be on a person's mind as they
partake and imbibe. Some risks which they only come to know after building
a social life and way of living that isn't very easy to change after one
figures out some of the more insidious problems it entails.

~Katherine


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Sandra Dodd

I asked Diana/hahamommy what it was that got cut off in a prior post,
and it was

fin

"...reminder there are many here who are strangers to me!"

Joanna Murphy

> I don't want to pass along the idea that it's harmless or perfectly fine to
> smoke pot because "Mama did when she was younger", but I definitely want to
> be honest, too. I didn't have any horrible experiences to set a "warning" on
> (if I even wanted to do that, but it seems preachy at any rate),

The ambivalence here doesn't make any sense to me. There is clearly a part of you that wants to express caution or warnings about drugs. This is valid in the spirit of honesty. I've let my son, who has asked, know that for some people they can lead to addiction, misery and death--although some people can use them and not experience this. But it is very real--it's not someone's paranoid fantasy. Just because that wasn't your personal experience doesn't make it less valid that some people get in trouble with them.

Just because you haven't been personally hit by a car crossing the street (I'm assuming you haven't, but I could be wrong), or maybe haven't even seen anyone ever been hit by a car, isn't going to cause you to express less caution to your children about the possibility.

I've had lots of discussions with my children, but in my case I've had close family members devastated (and dead) because of drugs, so I don't feel any need to pull any punches in this area. I keep our conversations to what they want to know and can handle, so I'm not overwhelming them, but I'm definitely letting them know that there are risks with both the illegal and addictive natures of various drugs. As in all other areas of our relationship, I honestly share the experience, information and perspective that I've acquired. And we talk about the deeper reasons that someone may be susceptible to doing and relying on drugs.

Joanna

Joanna Murphy

If one says Cocaine kills (as it has) and someone
> witnesses cocaine use that *doesn't* result in death. That statement is an
> lie of omission

That not actually true. If one person dies from cocaine use, then to say cocaine kills is accurate.

- it's not full of useful information with which one can be
> expected to make a reasonable responsible personal decision.

But I don't think that anyone on this list would stop at that amount of information. We're all wanting to present lots of information to our kids, and I think that the op was really looking more for perspective than whether or not to share information. Hopefully we're all past "Just Say No." <g>

Joanna

k

>>>> Over The Influence: the harm reduction guide for managing drugs and alcohol by Patt Denning, Jeannie Little, Adina Glickman <<<<

Ok. I've really said enough on this subject. I'm revisiting the
thread one more time to put the description of this book with the
title. I'm sure there are similar books out there. This just happens
to be the one I found. Most sources I've come across either totally
recommend drugs or totally (and unrealistically) push the "just say
no" thought.

Here's a link at Amazon books if you can't find it in a library and
want to peruse it: http://tinyurl.com/dl2gyd or just click on the book
image to read the first pages.

Here's a review that describes what the book is about:

"Over the Influence is not only the best-named book about recovery
from drug and alcohol addiction, it is also the best written, most
concise, and most emotionally real of all the books in the field.
Denning, Little, and Glickman translate the controversial concepts of
harm reduction into practical guidelines for people who want to
improve their lives--whether or not they achieve abstinence."--Lonny
Shavelson, MD, author of Hooked: Five Addicts Challenge Our Misguided
Drug Rehab System

~Katherine

Sandra Dodd

-=-If one says Cocaine kills (as it has) and someone
witnesses cocaine use that *doesn't* result in death. That statement
is an
lie of omission-=-

If a parallel can be made about kids learning to read in school, or
out of school, that creates "a lie of omission," then let's talk about
it some more.

Unless someone has sworn she's stated all she knows, under oath, in
court, I don't think there's any such thing as "a lie of omission."
Even in the court otah, it's the statement that's a lie, not the lack
of information.

I'm not talking about anything here except being careful with words
and ideas. I don't even know who's been quoted above.

Sandra




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