Jay Ford

***-=-In that case, one thing she might consider is to negotiate with her
husband face to face without lawyers present. I did that ... in the
lawyer's office. I sprung it on them and asked him directly if I
could talk with him privately. Brian and I had not seen each other
for months, and he felt that he would be fine with me on his own for a
few minutes. I think he was also curious. Several things being in my
favor, our meeting was ok not harmful to either of us.-=-

This isn't a helpful response. It's just a response. <g>***

I know what you mean, Sandra, but I did what the OP did here and what really helped in my divorce was letting her know that I didn't hate her, didn't blame her, wasn't mad at her, and that I still loved her even if we couldn't live together.  I think it really helped diffuse the situation and helped us get past any antagonism and work towards focusing on the kids and making the divorce as pain-free for them as possible.  That meant being kind to each other, respecting each other, not bad-mouthing each other, not putting the kids in the middle, and maintaining peaceful homes on both ends.  It also meant that we weren't going to disrupt their lives by sticking them in school, we weren't going to argue over custody and child support, etc.

Amicable divorces ARE possible in some cases, if the adults can get past their own issues and focus on the kids.  I found that as unschoolers we were able to do that because of the relationship we had with our kids.

I'm aware that staying married would have been better for the family, but a marriage can't work when one party has decided that working together to save the marriage isn't worth the effort, that counseling is out, that things are just over.  Sometimes crap happens and you have to deal with the fallout.  I think some of these 'you have to put the kids in school' are more a way for one parent to control the other than because they are truly concerned with how homeschooling/unschooling is going, and they know the courts will usually side with them.  One final 'ha ha, I won!' sort of thing.  Diffusing that stuff up front can really help.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

diana jenner

>
> I'm aware that staying married would have been better for the family, but a
> marriage can't work when one party has decided that working together to save
> the marriage isn't worth the effort, that counseling is out, that things are
> just over. Sometimes crap happens and you have to deal with the fallout. I
> think some of these 'you have to put the kids in school' are more a way for
> one parent to control the other than because they are truly concerned with
> how homeschooling/unschooling is going, and they know the courts will
> usually side with them. One final 'ha ha, I won!' sort of thing. Diffusing
> that stuff up front can really help.
>
.
>
>
>

My first thought to the first line? I'm aware that Mitch staying alive would
have been better for the family, but a marriage can't work when one party is
dead ::::bg::::: you can laugh now. It happens. There is Truth in "it's not
what you get it's what you do with it" within my own experience. I made the
end of my marriage as peaceful a trasition as I could for my children. I
don't think my work was in vain ;)

It's interesting to see what could be called a "worst case scenarios" when
it comes to unschooling success... in kind of an order of
intensity/difficulty/level of impossibility:
Poverty
Mental Illness (including destructive self-medication thereof)
Single Parenting
Divorced Parenting (amicable)
Divorced Parenting (antagonistic)

AND I would agree those are probably the hardest situations to live one's
life, let alone a free and joyful life.
Unschooling is a lot of work, it requires time, attention, energy, cash, and
most importantly, a demanding presence of mind. Any of the above "WCS" are a
lot of work to live, let alone free and joyful... And yet, right here, in
our community of a list, are those of us who are making the combination work
-- in freedom and with Great Joy. Ideal? pshaw. Wonderful?
Abso-freakin-lutely. Worth it? No Question.
And I'm fully aware it's not for everyone. It's not practical, it's not
cheap, it's NOT a lot of things.
The list of *what it is* is longer and happier, though :D
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-It's interesting to see what could be called a "worst case
scenarios" when
it comes to unschooling success... in kind of an order of
intensity/difficulty/level of impossibility:
Poverty
Mental Illness (including destructive self-medication thereof)
Single Parenting
Divorced Parenting (amicable)
Divorced Parenting (antagonistic)-=-

I think never having separated well from parents who are both school
teachers might be added there. Some parents are still jumping when
they think their parents thought "jump."



BUT...
Something happens before any of the things above happen.


To start there, in a discussion of ideas, would be like starting at
the point when kids are screaming and hitting each other and biting
and saying "Well here's the situation; they scream and hit and bite,
so let's make the best of it!"

Some people have recurring divorces (my sister). Some people have
self-induced poverty, or are flirting with it regardless of what their
children's future needs might be.

In any case, if putting children in school for a while (there's no
"forever" with school) would give a marriage a chance to resolve into
a workable relationship, then school might be a good idea in that
moment. If NOT putting children in school because unschooling is
theoretically wonderful means a divorce and a court order to put them
in school, that was a very bad "unschooling decision."

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

>>>> Unschooling is a lot of work, it requires time, attention, energy, cash, and
most importantly, a demanding presence of mind. Any of the above "WCS" are a
lot of work to live, let alone free and joyful... And yet, right here, in
our community of a list, are those of us who are making the combination work
-- in freedom and with Great Joy. Ideal? pshaw. Wonderful?
Abso-freakin-lutely. Worth it? No Question.
And I'm fully aware it's not for everyone. It's not practical, it's not
cheap, it's NOT a lot of things. <<<<

It's not an inoffensive, mild, sweet thing to do. It's not soothing.

>>>> The list of *what it is* is longer and happier, though :D <<<<

Which is why I'm on these lists. Gotta see the longer happier tally.
And I do see it. :) What is that saying about having something to
reach for. There's plenty of things I see everyday that I am reminded
or inspired to incorporate into our lives. Things I haven't thought
of in quite the way they're presented that day. Things I've
forgotten.

~Katherine

Sandra Dodd

-=-It's not an inoffensive, mild, sweet thing to do. It's not
soothing.-=-

From whose point of view?
It's mild, sweet and soothing to my kids.

It's probably irritating as all get-out to the neighbors. <G>

-=-There's plenty of things I see everyday that I am reminded
or inspired to incorporate into our lives. Things I haven't thought
of in quite the way they're presented that day. Things I've
forgotten.-=-

And that reminds me to post this:

http://unschooling.info/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=11
"Stirring it up, enlivening our days"
from the forum at unschooling.info

Yes, I am trying to stir that back up!

(But even without posting, people might find ideas there.)

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Judy R

In the case of my friend, there';s no way her husband would have entered into a discussion with her about any alternatives to public schooling - and her kids were very unhappy in school - does that mean she should have left the kids in school? They were basically refusing to go...how is she responsible for making a bad unschooling decision when he would not engage?
----- Original Message -----
From: Sandra Dodd
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 12:43 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Anxiety About Testing


-=-It's interesting to see what could be called a "worst case
scenarios" when
it comes to unschooling success... in kind of an order of
intensity/difficulty/level of impossibility:
Poverty
Mental Illness (including destructive self-medication thereof)
Single Parenting
Divorced Parenting (amicable)
Divorced Parenting (antagonistic)-=-

I think never having separated well from parents who are both school
teachers might be added there. Some parents are still jumping when
they think their parents thought "jump."

BUT...
Something happens before any of the things above happen.

To start there, in a discussion of ideas, would be like starting at
the point when kids are screaming and hitting each other and biting
and saying "Well here's the situation; they scream and hit and bite,
so let's make the best of it!"

Some people have recurring divorces (my sister). Some people have
self-induced poverty, or are flirting with it regardless of what their
children's future needs might be.

In any case, if putting children in school for a while (there's no
"forever" with school) would give a marriage a chance to resolve into
a workable relationship, then school might be a good idea in that
moment. If NOT putting children in school because unschooling is
theoretically wonderful means a divorce and a court order to put them
in school, that was a very bad "unschooling decision."

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

>>>> In any case, if putting children in school for a while (there's no
"forever" with school) would give a marriage a chance to resolve into
a workable relationship, then school might be a good idea in that
moment. If NOT putting children in school because unschooling is
theoretically wonderful means a divorce and a court order to put them
in school, that was a very bad "unschooling decision." <<<<

I think it's very difficult and can make unschooling impossible for
most people to have as their lives become something like in that list
of worse case scenarios:

Poverty
Mental Illness (including destructive self-medication thereof)
Single Parenting
Divorced Parenting (amicable)
Divorced Parenting (antagonistic)-=-

That's a really important distinction above.... between single and
divorced parenting, which is not the same. Divorced parenting is only
technically "single parenting" and not generally single in reality..
there's remarriage and also in the meantime there's probably both
parents --along with their respective incomes-- involved in their
children's lives in some way.

Here's another distinction .. whether the divorce is amicable or
antagonistic makes a world of difference to the outcome in family
relationships. I know only a handful of amicable divorces where the
kids are happy with both parents and well cared for. I don't know any
antagonistic divorces with happy kids and intact family connections.

One friend has a family of 5 and had divorced in the early 90s. Then
she had a catastrophic car wreck ... which made it extremely difficult
to continue homeschooling (very relaxed eclectic with unschooly
parenting style). After the youngest were older, the children finally
went to school to ease things for their mother who has major spinal
injuries. The whole time, some kids lived with their mom and others
lived 3 houses down with their dad. They had perfect freedom to be
with either parent at anytime. I would say their family remains
largely intact despite the divorce.

Most divorces aren't anything like that but are rageful and
destructive --- antagonistic. I do think it's worth it try one's
utmost to make as much peace as can possibly be had. Our divorce
started out very badly. I was not at all assured that Brian could be
calmed or reasoned with. Now we're back together, working things out.
There was infidelity involved too, not wonderful, not the end of the
world, something we both learned a lot from (not a recommended path
though).

I don't think it's up to a friend to guide another into doing their
utmost to make peace. Some people just can't imagine or can't go
there, so they don't. The example of my friend's amicable divorce
years and years ago was very helpful to me once things went bad
between me and Brian. She and I talked a good bit about how to
improve our situation. And that was very helpful.

~Katherine

k

-=-It's not an inoffensive, mild, sweet thing to do. It's not soothing.-=-

>>>> From whose point of view?
It's mild, sweet and soothing to my kids. <<<<

Even from their point of view, unschooling itself can be difficult to
express outside the home. At least that's the way it is around here.
:) I don't like to use the word much because alternative paths don't
get much respect, excite curiosity or generate fun in certain social
circles.

Which can be fine for us nonetheless. We just don't hang out very
much in social circles that don't respect alternative paths.

~Katherine

Sandra Dodd

-=-In the case of my friend, there';s no way her husband would have
entered into a discussion with her about any alternatives to public
schooling - and her kids were very unhappy in school - does that mean
she should have left the kids in school? -=-

If they were still married, yes.

Unless she had absolute full custody and he had relinquished parental
rights, he still has a say.

-=-They were basically refusing to go...how is she responsible for
making a bad unschooling decision when he would not engage?=-

You're right that it wasn't a bad unschooling decision, then. It
wasn't an unschooling decision to say they didn't have to go to school
anymore.

I don't want to talk about the laws of particular jurisdictions on
this list. That's not the purpose. But if there's ANY compulsory
attendance law where you are, to have an exception is likely going to
be something both parents have to agree to.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

>>>> In the case of my friend, there';s no way her husband would have entered into a discussion with her about any alternatives to public schooling - and her kids were very unhappy in school - does that mean she should have left the kids in school? They were basically refusing to go...how is she responsible for making a bad unschooling decision when he would not engage? <<<<

In the case of your friend, if a father insists on his kids being in
school, then the mother should make every effort to get them there and
any decisions her kids make about dropping out will be obviously their
own. She should encourage the children to do their best and if the
case can be made in court, they might be able to do the homeschooling
thing they want to do.

In court, the mother can present the wonderful thing they *were* doing
before school went into effect.... and records from some accredited
place like Clonlara could help in that presentation.

Then in court it won't look like it was the mother holding up the
school process. Once court is in session, the mother won't have any
chance to change that. AND guaranteed every moment of the mother's
resistance to the idea of school will be held up for review in court.

~Katherine

k

>>>> In court, the mother can present the wonderful thing they *were* doing
before school went into effect.... and records from some accredited
place like Clonlara could help in that presentation. <<<<

The most important person she could present this to is the father of
their children. Ultimately the court may decide whatever they decide,
and the parents can still agree to something else together or go back
to court later or whatever. If she can convince the father that the
kids *are* learning and aren't suffering from their unschooling path,
that would make a world of difference.

There are lots of parents without a hint of divorce in the air who
find the need to reassure the co parent of unschooling's good (lack of
harm).

Do all in your power to present unschooling well.

~Katherine