breastfeeding was influence: neither bad or good
Schuyler
It was unusual in Boston. In Belize in 1997 my breastfeeding Simon was commented on as being weird. We had enough money to buy formula, it was a sign of status and in households who could afford formula, the Similac can was on whatever the equivalent of the mantlepiece was. Maybe it was status enhancing in Boston in a way it wasn't in Southern California?
Schuyler
-------------
My mom had kids born in 1953, 1955, and 1959 and breastfed all of us.
Southern California. Was this really unusual? I never knew that.
-pam
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
-------------
My mom had kids born in 1953, 1955, and 1959 and breastfed all of us.
Southern California. Was this really unusual? I never knew that.
-pam
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
When I was breastfeeding Simon my dad made mention of Gussie from A Tree Grows in Brooklyn. The conversation wasn't strictly polite. It's a mean reference. It's from 1943. I went looking for the quote on-line. I don't have the book anymore.
Here's the whole section:
"Gussie, a boy of six, was a murky legend in the neighborhood. A tough
little hellion, with an overdeveloped under lip, he had been born like
other babies and nursed at his mother’s great breasts. But there all
resemblance to any child, living or dead, ceased. His mother tried to
wean him when he was nine months old but Gussie wouldn’t stand for it.
Denied the breast, he refused a bottle, food or water. He lay in his
crib and whimpered. His mother, fearful that he would starve, resumed
nursing him. He sucked contentedly, refusing all other food, and lived
off his mother’s milk until he was nearly two years old. The milk
stopped then because his mother was with child again. Gussie sulked and
bided his time for nine long months. He refused cow’s milk in any form
or container and took to drinking black coffee.
Little Tilly was
born and the mother flowed with milk again. Gussie went into hysterics
the first time he saw the baby nursing. He lay on the floor, screaming
and banging his head. He wouldn’t eat for four days and he refused to
go to the toilet. He got haggard and his mother got frightened. She
thought it wouldn’t do any harm to give him the breast just once. That
was her big mistake. He was like a dope fiend getting the stuff after a
long period of deprivation. He wouldn’t let go.He took all of his mother’s milk from that time on and Little Tilly, a sickly baby, had to go on the bottle.
Gussie
was three years old at this time and big for his age. Like other boys,
he wore knee pants and heavy shoes with brass toe tips. As soon as he
saw his mother unbutton her dress, he ran to her. He stood up while
nursing, an elbow on his mother’s knee, his feet crossed jauntily and
his eyes roving around the room. Standing to nurse was not such a
remarkable feat as his mother’s breasts were mountainous and
practically rested in her lap when released. Gussie was indeed a
fearful sight nursing that way and he looked not unlike a man with his
foot on a bar rail, smoking a fat pale cigar.
The neighbors found
out about Gussie and discussed his pathological state in hushed
whispers. Gussie’s father got so that he wouldn’t sleep with his wife;
he said that she bred monsters. The poor woman figured and figured on a
way to wean Gussie. He was too big to nurse, she decided. He was going
for four. She was afraid his second teeth wouldn’t come in straight.
One
day she took a can of stove blackening and the brush and closed herself
in the bedroom where she copiously blackened her left breast with the
stove polish. With a lipstick she drew a wide ugly mouth with
frightening teeth in the vicinity of the nipple. She buttoned her dress
and went into the kitchen and sat in her nursing rocker near the
window. When Gussie saw her, he threw the dice, with which he had been
playing, under the washtubs and trotted over for feeding. He crossed
his feet, planted his elbow on her knee and waited.
“Gussie want tiddy?” asked his mother wheedingly.
“Yup!”
“All right. Gussie’s gonna get nice tiddy.”
Suddenly
she ripped open her dress and thrust the horribly made-up breast into
his face. Gussie was paralyzed with right for a moment, then he ran
away screaming and hid under the bed where he stayed for twenty-four
hours. He came out at last, trembling. He went back to drinking black
coffee and shuddered every time his eyes went to his mother’s bosom.
Gussie was weaned.
The mother reported her success all over the
neighborhood. It started a new fashion in weaning called, “Giving the
baby the Gussie.”
________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Here's the whole section:
"Gussie, a boy of six, was a murky legend in the neighborhood. A tough
little hellion, with an overdeveloped under lip, he had been born like
other babies and nursed at his mother’s great breasts. But there all
resemblance to any child, living or dead, ceased. His mother tried to
wean him when he was nine months old but Gussie wouldn’t stand for it.
Denied the breast, he refused a bottle, food or water. He lay in his
crib and whimpered. His mother, fearful that he would starve, resumed
nursing him. He sucked contentedly, refusing all other food, and lived
off his mother’s milk until he was nearly two years old. The milk
stopped then because his mother was with child again. Gussie sulked and
bided his time for nine long months. He refused cow’s milk in any form
or container and took to drinking black coffee.
Little Tilly was
born and the mother flowed with milk again. Gussie went into hysterics
the first time he saw the baby nursing. He lay on the floor, screaming
and banging his head. He wouldn’t eat for four days and he refused to
go to the toilet. He got haggard and his mother got frightened. She
thought it wouldn’t do any harm to give him the breast just once. That
was her big mistake. He was like a dope fiend getting the stuff after a
long period of deprivation. He wouldn’t let go.He took all of his mother’s milk from that time on and Little Tilly, a sickly baby, had to go on the bottle.
Gussie
was three years old at this time and big for his age. Like other boys,
he wore knee pants and heavy shoes with brass toe tips. As soon as he
saw his mother unbutton her dress, he ran to her. He stood up while
nursing, an elbow on his mother’s knee, his feet crossed jauntily and
his eyes roving around the room. Standing to nurse was not such a
remarkable feat as his mother’s breasts were mountainous and
practically rested in her lap when released. Gussie was indeed a
fearful sight nursing that way and he looked not unlike a man with his
foot on a bar rail, smoking a fat pale cigar.
The neighbors found
out about Gussie and discussed his pathological state in hushed
whispers. Gussie’s father got so that he wouldn’t sleep with his wife;
he said that she bred monsters. The poor woman figured and figured on a
way to wean Gussie. He was too big to nurse, she decided. He was going
for four. She was afraid his second teeth wouldn’t come in straight.
One
day she took a can of stove blackening and the brush and closed herself
in the bedroom where she copiously blackened her left breast with the
stove polish. With a lipstick she drew a wide ugly mouth with
frightening teeth in the vicinity of the nipple. She buttoned her dress
and went into the kitchen and sat in her nursing rocker near the
window. When Gussie saw her, he threw the dice, with which he had been
playing, under the washtubs and trotted over for feeding. He crossed
his feet, planted his elbow on her knee and waited.
“Gussie want tiddy?” asked his mother wheedingly.
“Yup!”
“All right. Gussie’s gonna get nice tiddy.”
Suddenly
she ripped open her dress and thrust the horribly made-up breast into
his face. Gussie was paralyzed with right for a moment, then he ran
away screaming and hid under the bed where he stayed for twenty-four
hours. He came out at last, trembling. He went back to drinking black
coffee and shuddered every time his eyes went to his mother’s bosom.
Gussie was weaned.
The mother reported her success all over the
neighborhood. It started a new fashion in weaning called, “Giving the
baby the Gussie.”
________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
In Texas, my mother was unsupported in breastfeeding to the degree
that she stopped very soon in infancy for all four of us girls. She
breastfed me for a whole month. I don't know why though because
naturally it's taboo to talk about it or ask.
~Katherine
that she stopped very soon in infancy for all four of us girls. She
breastfed me for a whole month. I don't know why though because
naturally it's taboo to talk about it or ask.
~Katherine
On 2/22/09, Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
> It was unusual in Boston. In Belize in 1997 my breastfeeding Simon was commented on as being weird. We had enough money to buy formula, it was a sign of status and in households who could afford formula, the Similac can was on whatever the equivalent of the mantlepiece was. Maybe it was status enhancing in Boston in a way it wasn't in Southern California?
>
> Schuyler
>
> -------------
>
>
>
> My mom had kids born in 1953, 1955, and 1959 and breastfed all of us.
> Southern California. Was this really unusual? I never knew that.
>
> -pam
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Ed Wendell
My mom bottle fed her first 3 - 1959, 1961, 1962 (me) then breast fed the youngest in 1976.
She said that it was a social stigma to breastfeed - only the very poor breastfed when she had the first 3 - it was considered crude and low class - but by 1976 the tables had turned and well educated, people with enough money, etc. breastfed.
Oh and that was in Southern Illinois - farming and coal mining country with a distinctly Southern type culture. When I go home and come back to MO people will ask where in the south I'm from ;)
Lisa W.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
She said that it was a social stigma to breastfeed - only the very poor breastfed when she had the first 3 - it was considered crude and low class - but by 1976 the tables had turned and well educated, people with enough money, etc. breastfed.
Oh and that was in Southern Illinois - farming and coal mining country with a distinctly Southern type culture. When I go home and come back to MO people will ask where in the south I'm from ;)
Lisa W.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
What a horrible story! I am sorry your dad did that to you.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 2/22/2009 6:20 AM, Ed Wendell wrote:
50's. We were upper middle class - both of my parents had college
degrees and we lived in the southern california suburbs. My mom had
multiple majors in college that included psychology and journalism plus
a teaching credential. My dad majored in English.They weren't at all
counter-culture - they were very comformist. My dad was a republican and
my mom a democrat, though <G>. My dad was president of the chamber of
commerce and in the elks club and rotary club and stuff like that.
I never thought about her breastfeeding, but remember it well - I even
remember doing it MYSELF - I have sisters 3 and 7 years younger than I
am, so I suspect it was her letting me nurse later, after they were born.
-pam
> My mom bottle fed her first 3 - 1959, 1961, 1962 (me) then breast fed the youngest in 1976.I wish my mom was alive so I could ask her why she breastfed in the
>
> She said that it was a social stigma to breastfeed - only the very poor breastfed when she had the first 3 - it was considered crude and low class - but by 1976 the tables had turned and well educated, people with enough money, etc. breastfed
50's. We were upper middle class - both of my parents had college
degrees and we lived in the southern california suburbs. My mom had
multiple majors in college that included psychology and journalism plus
a teaching credential. My dad majored in English.They weren't at all
counter-culture - they were very comformist. My dad was a republican and
my mom a democrat, though <G>. My dad was president of the chamber of
commerce and in the elks club and rotary club and stuff like that.
I never thought about her breastfeeding, but remember it well - I even
remember doing it MYSELF - I have sisters 3 and 7 years younger than I
am, so I suspect it was her letting me nurse later, after they were born.
-pam
> .
>
Jenny C
> I wish my mom was alive so I could ask her why she breastfed in theMy grandmother had most of her kids in the 40's, in southern california,
> 50's. We were upper middle class - both of my parents had college
> degrees and we lived in the southern california suburbs.
very middle class. She nursed all of her babies. She told me a story
about how she blacked out her bathroom windows, so that she could get up
with her babies in the middle of the night and change their diapers and
nurse them in half light during the mandatory black outs in the 40's. I
can't even imagine how someone would use a bottle in complete darkness!
But it was the 40's and I think things changed in the 50's in regards to
breast feeding.
Sandra Dodd
It seems when I look back that breastfeeding led directly to "food
freedoms" and choices about what to wear. Those came out of
discussions too, and plain old common sense and generosity, but there
was an article in Mothering Magazine when Kirby was little that said
when children were allowed to choose, they themselves chose "a
balanced diet" over a period of time. They didn't eat the same thing
day after day, but seemed to know what they needed if no one had
ruined it by telling them what to eat when.
People who bottlefed can become unschoolers. I wonder sometimes,
though, how those who breastfed could send their babies away.
Sandra
freedoms" and choices about what to wear. Those came out of
discussions too, and plain old common sense and generosity, but there
was an article in Mothering Magazine when Kirby was little that said
when children were allowed to choose, they themselves chose "a
balanced diet" over a period of time. They didn't eat the same thing
day after day, but seemed to know what they needed if no one had
ruined it by telling them what to eat when.
People who bottlefed can become unschoolers. I wonder sometimes,
though, how those who breastfed could send their babies away.
Sandra
Ed Wendell
It was EXTREMELY hard - I cried all the way to work many times. I think many times I just disconnected though. It helped that Zac went to a babysitter and he was the only one she kept. She dotted on him and treated him like a grandchild. Also he only had to go 2 days a week as Ed kept him the other 3 days due to his schedule accommodating that. Oh and I did not go back to work until Zac was 8 months old. He never would take breast milk in a bottle - but man did he nurse the exact minute I walked into her house.
Lisa W.
Lisa W.
----- Original Message -----
From: Sandra Dodd
People who bottlefed can become unschoolers. I wonder sometimes,
though, how those who breastfed could send their babies away.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-It was EXTREMELY hard - I cried all the way to work many times. -=-
I bet that made it easier to commit to unschooling!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I bet that made it easier to commit to unschooling!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
I have this book by Sarah Hrdy called Mother Nature. There is a big section on wet-nursing in France in the 1700's. The statistic she gives is this: of the 21,000 births in Paris in 1780, only 5 percent of them were nursed by their own mothers. Infant mortality rates were really high with under this system. There were actually public service sorts of messages encouraging women to breast feed their own children.
Hrdy examines the reasons behind sending your child off--only the wealthiest could afford in-home wet nurses, so most the infants of the middle class would be sent to the country to a wet-nurse--and in part concludes that it was because the income or the unpaid labor of the mother was pivotal to her families well-being. Much the same reason why many mothers chose to send their children away now. It was also a way to have more babies. For the wealthy who could afford to have a live in wet-nurse children survived 80 percent of the time, the same as if they were breastfed by their mother. There was also a greater likelihood for a daughter to be sent to be wet-nursed and a son to be kept at home. Certainly first born son's were most likelihood to be kept at home.
It is another demonstration of the wonderful luxury and boon that I have in my life. I not only got to breastfeed my children until they were done but I also still get to stay home with them earning nothing and contributing nothing to my families economy.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, 22 February, 2009 9:29:52 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: breastfeeding was influence: neither bad or good
It seems when I look back that breastfeeding led directly to "food
freedoms" and choices about what to wear. Those came out of
discussions too, and plain old common sense and generosity, but there
was an article in Mothering Magazine when Kirby was little that said
when children were allowed to choose, they themselves chose "a
balanced diet" over a period of time. They didn't eat the same thing
day after day, but seemed to know what they needed if no one had
ruined it by telling them what to eat when.
People who bottlefed can become unschoolers. I wonder sometimes,
though, how those who breastfed could send their babies away.
Sandra
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hrdy examines the reasons behind sending your child off--only the wealthiest could afford in-home wet nurses, so most the infants of the middle class would be sent to the country to a wet-nurse--and in part concludes that it was because the income or the unpaid labor of the mother was pivotal to her families well-being. Much the same reason why many mothers chose to send their children away now. It was also a way to have more babies. For the wealthy who could afford to have a live in wet-nurse children survived 80 percent of the time, the same as if they were breastfed by their mother. There was also a greater likelihood for a daughter to be sent to be wet-nursed and a son to be kept at home. Certainly first born son's were most likelihood to be kept at home.
It is another demonstration of the wonderful luxury and boon that I have in my life. I not only got to breastfeed my children until they were done but I also still get to stay home with them earning nothing and contributing nothing to my families economy.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, 22 February, 2009 9:29:52 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: breastfeeding was influence: neither bad or good
It seems when I look back that breastfeeding led directly to "food
freedoms" and choices about what to wear. Those came out of
discussions too, and plain old common sense and generosity, but there
was an article in Mothering Magazine when Kirby was little that said
when children were allowed to choose, they themselves chose "a
balanced diet" over a period of time. They didn't eat the same thing
day after day, but seemed to know what they needed if no one had
ruined it by telling them what to eat when.
People who bottlefed can become unschoolers. I wonder sometimes,
though, how those who breastfed could send their babies away.
Sandra
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-It is another demonstration of the wonderful luxury and boon that I
have in my life. I not only got to breastfeed my children until they
were done but I also still get to stay home with them earning nothing
and contributing nothing to my families economy. -=-
For a few decades, when there's a cost analysis of raising a child,
education is the biggest thing on the list. If that current view of
what it costs to raise a child is good, should unschooling be
considered to be contribution to those "costs"?
Probably not, in terms of "the economy." Pam? What's the "worth"
of unschooling? Are we bad for not putting money into other people's
pockets about this?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
have in my life. I not only got to breastfeed my children until they
were done but I also still get to stay home with them earning nothing
and contributing nothing to my families economy. -=-
For a few decades, when there's a cost analysis of raising a child,
education is the biggest thing on the list. If that current view of
what it costs to raise a child is good, should unschooling be
considered to be contribution to those "costs"?
Probably not, in terms of "the economy." Pam? What's the "worth"
of unschooling? Are we bad for not putting money into other people's
pockets about this?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ed Wendell
Unschooling was a natural fit for us - we did not know it was called that, we called it homeschooling but we dreamed and dreamed and talked about what homeschool would look like for us. We never ever did school at home when we brought him home mid 3rd grade. We just simply brought him home and started living - doing more of what we were already doing when not in school - Playing in the creek, catching crawdads, finding rocks, digging fox holes in the yard, playing with Lego's, water fights, watching TV/movies, playing games, going places, doing things. Later we found out that what we were doing was called "unschooling" and "radical unschooling" through the local group we joined - thankfully it was mainly unschoolers & radical unschoolers - started by Radical unschoolers - I say thankfully as it gave us others to connect with, that were unschoolers and radical unschoolers.
It came to a point we just could not take it anymore (school) - Zac could not take it anymore and we knew it was NOW or lose him. That was 6 years ago this January and it has been great ! He is 14 and our relationship is fantastic!
Lisa W.
-=-It was EXTREMELY hard - I cried all the way to work many times. -=-
I bet that made it easier to commit to unschooling!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It came to a point we just could not take it anymore (school) - Zac could not take it anymore and we knew it was NOW or lose him. That was 6 years ago this January and it has been great ! He is 14 and our relationship is fantastic!
Lisa W.
-=-It was EXTREMELY hard - I cried all the way to work many times. -=-
I bet that made it easier to commit to unschooling!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ed Wendell
but we do - when we go out and about ;) We spend a lot on games, computers, eating out, museums, various things to do, movie rentals,
Lisa W.
Are we bad for not putting money into other people's
pockets about this?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa W.
Are we bad for not putting money into other people's
pockets about this?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Beautiful:
"We just simply brought him home and started living - doing more of
what we were already doing when not in school - Playing in the creek,
catching crawdads, finding rocks, digging fox holes in the yard,
playing with Lego's, water fights, watching TV/movies, playing games,
going places, doing things."
The good stuff!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"We just simply brought him home and started living - doing more of
what we were already doing when not in school - Playing in the creek,
catching crawdads, finding rocks, digging fox holes in the yard,
playing with Lego's, water fights, watching TV/movies, playing games,
going places, doing things."
The good stuff!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Danielle Conger
Schuyler wrote:
livelihood suckling mothers' colostrum off because it was deemed impure.
There's a wonderful political cartoon of one very plump one climbing out
of a carriage. Puppies were often used as well to "draw off" the
mother's first milk.
--
~~Danielle
Emily (11), Julia (10), Sam (8)
http://www.organiclearning.blogspot.com
>Not only that, but there were a whole group of women who made their
> I have this book by Sarah Hrdy called Mother Nature. There is a big
> section on wet-nursing in France in the 1700's. The statistic she
> gives is this: of the 21,000 births in Paris in 1780, only 5 percent
> of them were nursed by their own mothers. Infant mortality rates were
> really high with under this system. There were actually public service
> sorts of messages encouraging women to breast feed their own children.
>
livelihood suckling mothers' colostrum off because it was deemed impure.
There's a wonderful political cartoon of one very plump one climbing out
of a carriage. Puppies were often used as well to "draw off" the
mother's first milk.
--
~~Danielle
Emily (11), Julia (10), Sam (8)
http://www.organiclearning.blogspot.com
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
People who bottlefed can become unschoolers. I wonder sometimes,
though, how those who breastfed could send their babies away.
-=-=-=-=-=-
So true. I never thought of homeschooling until I had my son. Once he was born and in my eyes nursing
I could never send him away ,
My grandmother breastfeed all her kids in the 40's .She had 4 and my mom was the oldest born in 1940.
That was in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. She was privileged and married to a Doctor.
I remember when young my family saying how my aunt was selfish for not breastfeeding her kids. Breastfeeding was the norm and still
is in Brazil.
The breastfeeding campaign there is big.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
though, how those who breastfed could send their babies away.
-=-=-=-=-=-
So true. I never thought of homeschooling until I had my son. Once he was born and in my eyes nursing
I could never send him away ,
My grandmother breastfeed all her kids in the 40's .She had 4 and my mom was the oldest born in 1940.
That was in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. She was privileged and married to a Doctor.
I remember when young my family saying how my aunt was selfish for not breastfeeding her kids. Breastfeeding was the norm and still
is in Brazil.
The breastfeeding campaign there is big.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 2/22/2009 2:27 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
transportation services, housekeeping services, education services,
cooking services) does not count in GDP.
But, that's truly an accounting problem, not a reality. If economists
could agree on a way to put a dollar value on our "home-production," the
problem would be solved. It is the same problem as making comparisons
between countries - in advanced countries many more activities are
handled through market transactions, while in poorer countries, these
same activities are done by people for themselves - things like taking
care of their children, growing food, laundry, housekeeping, cooking.
Also, some would argue that we could "do more." They mean we could
produce in fields that contribute more to the world. I could be a
research economist and help figure out how to prevent recessions, for
example. They say my intelligence is being wasted. (I don't agree - what
on earth could be more important than figure out how to successfully
parent the next generation?)
We are "producing" - we're producing just as surely as if we were
hiring/paying for the same services. And our "output" is higher
quality," to boot! Our "production" ought to count double! And that's
not even counting the contribution we may be (hopefully are) making to
improving understanding relationships between parents and children.
-pam
> Probably not, in terms of "the economy." Pam? What's the "worth"We're bad because our "production" (our childcare services,
> of unschooling? Are we bad for not putting money into other people's
> pockets about this?
>
transportation services, housekeeping services, education services,
cooking services) does not count in GDP.
But, that's truly an accounting problem, not a reality. If economists
could agree on a way to put a dollar value on our "home-production," the
problem would be solved. It is the same problem as making comparisons
between countries - in advanced countries many more activities are
handled through market transactions, while in poorer countries, these
same activities are done by people for themselves - things like taking
care of their children, growing food, laundry, housekeeping, cooking.
Also, some would argue that we could "do more." They mean we could
produce in fields that contribute more to the world. I could be a
research economist and help figure out how to prevent recessions, for
example. They say my intelligence is being wasted. (I don't agree - what
on earth could be more important than figure out how to successfully
parent the next generation?)
We are "producing" - we're producing just as surely as if we were
hiring/paying for the same services. And our "output" is higher
quality," to boot! Our "production" ought to count double! And that's
not even counting the contribution we may be (hopefully are) making to
improving understanding relationships between parents and children.
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=-I remember when young my family saying how my aunt was selfish for
not breastfeeding her kids. -=-
When Kirby was four months old, Keith and I took him to my dad's mom's
family reunion, in Roby, Texas. My grandmother was the second of
eight siblings, and they lived in New Mexico and Texas when they were
growing up. They were all still alive then, in 1986.
It's a conservative, non-drinking Baptist crowd. They'll play dominos
but not cards at the reunion.
I had worn a nursing shirt, so I wouldn't have to undress at all to
nurse him. When he wanted to nurse, I went back to the far end of the
building (a county community center kind of place), and looked at the
bulletin board, reading all the details of announcements about a town
I didn't live in, while Kirby nursed.
My Mamaw came up and looked at the bulletin board, too. After a bit
she said, "I don't know why those other women don't *feed their
babies.*" (I'd put that in italics, if I could, to show how she
emphasized those last three words, slowly but meaningfully, without
looking directly at me or Kirby. And think it with a west Texas
accent, if you can.) There were two other moms of young babies there,
even younger than Kirby, bottlefed.
That same day she said another thing I should note. My Mamaw birthed
five boys. The first two, a set of twins, were stillborn. I've seen
their graves. She named them Horace and Morris. Later there was
another set of twins in her extended family, and they used those names.
Her three living sons were Kirby (my dad), Rex (who died last month)
and John Quincy, who died a few years ago. I'm the oldest in that
line now.
But what she said, when she got to meet my first child, was "I think
every mother should have a daughter."
She was still alive when Marty was born, so she knew I had two boys.
She died before Holly was born, so I very often think of her when I
appreciate having a daughter. I think of how much she would have
liked to have had a daughter.
There's something special there, in my nursing a baby, named after my
dad, in front of his mother, who wanted a daughter.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
not breastfeeding her kids. -=-
When Kirby was four months old, Keith and I took him to my dad's mom's
family reunion, in Roby, Texas. My grandmother was the second of
eight siblings, and they lived in New Mexico and Texas when they were
growing up. They were all still alive then, in 1986.
It's a conservative, non-drinking Baptist crowd. They'll play dominos
but not cards at the reunion.
I had worn a nursing shirt, so I wouldn't have to undress at all to
nurse him. When he wanted to nurse, I went back to the far end of the
building (a county community center kind of place), and looked at the
bulletin board, reading all the details of announcements about a town
I didn't live in, while Kirby nursed.
My Mamaw came up and looked at the bulletin board, too. After a bit
she said, "I don't know why those other women don't *feed their
babies.*" (I'd put that in italics, if I could, to show how she
emphasized those last three words, slowly but meaningfully, without
looking directly at me or Kirby. And think it with a west Texas
accent, if you can.) There were two other moms of young babies there,
even younger than Kirby, bottlefed.
That same day she said another thing I should note. My Mamaw birthed
five boys. The first two, a set of twins, were stillborn. I've seen
their graves. She named them Horace and Morris. Later there was
another set of twins in her extended family, and they used those names.
Her three living sons were Kirby (my dad), Rex (who died last month)
and John Quincy, who died a few years ago. I'm the oldest in that
line now.
But what she said, when she got to meet my first child, was "I think
every mother should have a daughter."
She was still alive when Marty was born, so she knew I had two boys.
She died before Holly was born, so I very often think of her when I
appreciate having a daughter. I think of how much she would have
liked to have had a daughter.
There's something special there, in my nursing a baby, named after my
dad, in front of his mother, who wanted a daughter.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I come back a few hours ago from going to see the Lippizzaner Stalions with Gigi my just turned 3 year old.
THis older couple sat next to us in the Golden Circle ( best seats one can get) and I don't know if they where horrified or not that I nursed her there. I notice one of the riders took a longer look at us when she rode by during the show. It was funny.
I was being discreet and did where a beautiful nursing top I got years ago. BUt nursing a 3 year old that is as tall as a 4 year old or more is not as discreet as nursing a younger child.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
THis older couple sat next to us in the Golden Circle ( best seats one can get) and I don't know if they where horrified or not that I nursed her there. I notice one of the riders took a longer look at us when she rode by during the show. It was funny.
I was being discreet and did where a beautiful nursing top I got years ago. BUt nursing a 3 year old that is as tall as a 4 year old or more is not as discreet as nursing a younger child.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/23/2009 12:08:53 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Sandra@... writes:
<<<There's something special there, in my nursing a baby, named after my
dad, in front of his mother, who wanted a daughter.>>>
What a wonderfully sweet story. Thank you for sharing it.
Peace,
De
**************Get a jump start on your taxes. Find a tax professional in your
neighborhood today.
(http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=Tax+Return+Preparation+%26+Filing&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000004)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra@... writes:
<<<There's something special there, in my nursing a baby, named after my
dad, in front of his mother, who wanted a daughter.>>>
What a wonderfully sweet story. Thank you for sharing it.
Peace,
De
**************Get a jump start on your taxes. Find a tax professional in your
neighborhood today.
(http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=Tax+Return+Preparation+%26+Filing&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000004)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
diana jenner
There was a moment, when the kids were 9 months and 2 years 9 months and
we'd all 4 traveled to California. I sat on my MIL's queen sized bed (where
Mitch had slept with her until he was 10), nursing both of the kids; each
sprawled out their own way, taking up the entirety of the bed. She stood in
the doorway and watched, she who'd never nursed, who's son received human
milk for the first time during his cancer treatment as an adult. She got
it. For the first time, I could see in her eyes that she understood what
she'd missed.
Our best connection ever.
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com
we'd all 4 traveled to California. I sat on my MIL's queen sized bed (where
Mitch had slept with her until he was 10), nursing both of the kids; each
sprawled out their own way, taking up the entirety of the bed. She stood in
the doorway and watched, she who'd never nursed, who's son received human
milk for the first time during his cancer treatment as an adult. She got
it. For the first time, I could see in her eyes that she understood what
she'd missed.
Our best connection ever.
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com
On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 9:08 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> But what she said, when she got to meet my first child, was "I think
> every mother should have a daughter."
> She was still alive when Marty was born, so she knew I had two boys.
> She died before Holly was born, so I very often think of her when I
> appreciate having a daughter. I think of how much she would have
> liked to have had a daughter.
>
> There's something special there, in my nursing a baby, named after my
> dad, in front of his mother, who wanted a daughter.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Verna
> I was being discreet and did where a beautiful nursing top I gotyears ago. BUt nursing a 3 year old that is as tall as a 4 year old or
more is not as discreet as nursing a younger child.
>I ALWAYS got stares while nursing, even though both my babies weaned
themselves early (by a year). They were SOOO loud. Never figured out
why but you could hear them nursing across a crowded restaurant.
Seemed like everybody was always looking around for the source of that
noise.
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<<BUt nursing a 3 year old that is as tall as a 4 year old or
more is not as discreet as nursing a younger child.>>>>
Jayn nursed until she was 8, by which time it was mostly at night and always
at home. She and I came to a mutual agreement to curtail the public nursing
somewhere around 4 I guess. She was and is extra tall, so she looked older,
but it seemed to be her idea borne of observing that none of her friends
around here still nursed.
My very, very (very) sore nipples prompted me to insist that she wean, about
a year ago now. It is one of the few things that I have insisted on from
her. I found that I was unwilling (to the point of dreading) to hug or
cuddle with her because it inevitably led to her asking to nurse. When we
stopped nursing I made a concious effort to hug and cuddle her lots more.
There were a few hard nights, and the occassional wistful mention of it from
her, but she now seems to have accepted it, and she has become super cuddly
affectionate.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
more is not as discreet as nursing a younger child.>>>>
Jayn nursed until she was 8, by which time it was mostly at night and always
at home. She and I came to a mutual agreement to curtail the public nursing
somewhere around 4 I guess. She was and is extra tall, so she looked older,
but it seemed to be her idea borne of observing that none of her friends
around here still nursed.
My very, very (very) sore nipples prompted me to insist that she wean, about
a year ago now. It is one of the few things that I have insisted on from
her. I found that I was unwilling (to the point of dreading) to hug or
cuddle with her because it inevitably led to her asking to nurse. When we
stopped nursing I made a concious effort to hug and cuddle her lots more.
There were a few hard nights, and the occassional wistful mention of it from
her, but she now seems to have accepted it, and she has become super cuddly
affectionate.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
Robyn L. Coburn
When I was born my mother was told that I had a "lazy mouth" and was too
lazy to nurse properly and would not get enough milk so she should give it
up. She went through a whole lot of different formulae, all of which I
apparently violently threw up. She ended up feeding me diluted Carnation
milk.
However in following this discussion, I have come to the realization that
the negative label "lazy" informed Mum's belief about me and my view of
myself for my whole life! That is where it came from. I'm kinda reeling a
bit, like my whole life just shifted and schismed for a moment - a sort of
"OMG no wonder".
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
lazy to nurse properly and would not get enough milk so she should give it
up. She went through a whole lot of different formulae, all of which I
apparently violently threw up. She ended up feeding me diluted Carnation
milk.
However in following this discussion, I have come to the realization that
the negative label "lazy" informed Mum's belief about me and my view of
myself for my whole life! That is where it came from. I'm kinda reeling a
bit, like my whole life just shifted and schismed for a moment - a sort of
"OMG no wonder".
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
Pam Sorooshian
On 2/23/2009 7:43 AM, Robyn L. Coburn wrote:
Can babies be lazy?
There are babies who are definitely more calm and those who are more
energetic, but lazy?
-pam
> However in following this discussion, I have come to the realization thatAs if you were "born lazy?"
> the negative label "lazy" informed Mum's belief about me and my view of
> myself for my whole life! That is where it came from. I'm kinda reeling a
> bit, like my whole life just shifted and schismed for a moment - a sort of
> "OMG no wonder".
>
Can babies be lazy?
There are babies who are definitely more calm and those who are more
energetic, but lazy?
-pam
Sandra Dodd
Robyn,
Although what you wrote and discovered was sad, I've added it to this
page:
http://sandradodd.com/lazy
on the right side, a little way down.
And because of my looking at that page just now, I wanted to say
something I've been thinking for a few weeks.
To everyone now and in the future:
I wanted to find a time and reason to brag up Joyce. Joyce
Fetteroll very quietly does as much for unschooling as anyone ever
has. She's about to catch up with John Holt in terms of hours of
thinking and writing. She's passed him in direct experience long ago.
I'll make a whole post so it can be found again in the archives more
easily. But read that link above and think of how many people, if
their mothers read that page, will be spared a moment, as Robyn just
described, in which they have a moment in which they reel and feel
their whole life has just shifted and schismed. If our kids do feel
that, in 40 years, let it be because they suddenly realize how much we
did for them and how little we "had to" do it, within the prevailing
culture of the day. Let it be a shift to appreciation, and not a
sinking feeling that life could have been so much easier.
Sandra
Although what you wrote and discovered was sad, I've added it to this
page:
http://sandradodd.com/lazy
on the right side, a little way down.
And because of my looking at that page just now, I wanted to say
something I've been thinking for a few weeks.
To everyone now and in the future:
I wanted to find a time and reason to brag up Joyce. Joyce
Fetteroll very quietly does as much for unschooling as anyone ever
has. She's about to catch up with John Holt in terms of hours of
thinking and writing. She's passed him in direct experience long ago.
I'll make a whole post so it can be found again in the archives more
easily. But read that link above and think of how many people, if
their mothers read that page, will be spared a moment, as Robyn just
described, in which they have a moment in which they reel and feel
their whole life has just shifted and schismed. If our kids do feel
that, in 40 years, let it be because they suddenly realize how much we
did for them and how little we "had to" do it, within the prevailing
culture of the day. Let it be a shift to appreciation, and not a
sinking feeling that life could have been so much easier.
Sandra
k
Awww... That's really sweet, Robyn.
~Katherine
~Katherine
On 2/23/09, Robyn L. Coburn <dezigna@...> wrote:
> <<<<BUt nursing a 3 year old that is as tall as a 4 year old or
> more is not as discreet as nursing a younger child.>>>>
>
>
> Jayn nursed until she was 8, by which time it was mostly at night and always
> at home. She and I came to a mutual agreement to curtail the public nursing
> somewhere around 4 I guess. She was and is extra tall, so she looked older,
> but it seemed to be her idea borne of observing that none of her friends
> around here still nursed.
>
> My very, very (very) sore nipples prompted me to insist that she wean, about
> a year ago now. It is one of the few things that I have insisted on from
> her. I found that I was unwilling (to the point of dreading) to hug or
> cuddle with her because it inevitably led to her asking to nurse. When we
> stopped nursing I made a concious effort to hug and cuddle her lots more.
> There were a few hard nights, and the occassional wistful mention of it from
> her, but she now seems to have accepted it, and she has become super cuddly
> affectionate.
>
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
> www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
> www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
> www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
k
>>>> When I was born my mother was told that I had a "lazy mouth" and was toolazy to nurse properly and would not get enough milk so she should give it
up. She went through a whole lot of different formulae, all of which I
apparently violently threw up. She ended up feeding me diluted Carnation
milk.
However in following this discussion, I have come to the realization that
the negative label "lazy" informed Mum's belief about me and my view of
myself for my whole life! That is where it came from. I'm kinda reeling a
bit, like my whole life just shifted and schismed for a moment - a sort of
"OMG no wonder". <<<<
If she had only known about the charm hold, it might have been a very
different story. It was about 16 weeks before Karl figured out how to
nurse. I breastfed constantly because he wasn't getting very much
milk the way he was trying to suckle, which was more like licking
instead of sucking.
Breastfeeding is certainly not always trouble free. I so love it when
people are able to get the support they need. I'm sorry about your
mother. Gosh that's sad.
~Katherine
On 2/23/09, Robyn L. Coburn <dezigna@...> wrote:
> When I was born my mother was told that I had a "lazy mouth" and was too
> lazy to nurse properly and would not get enough milk so she should give it
> up. She went through a whole lot of different formulae, all of which I
> apparently violently threw up. She ended up feeding me diluted Carnation
> milk.
>
> However in following this discussion, I have come to the realization that
> the negative label "lazy" informed Mum's belief about me and my view of
> myself for my whole life! That is where it came from. I'm kinda reeling a
> bit, like my whole life just shifted and schismed for a moment - a sort of
> "OMG no wonder".
>
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
> www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
> www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
> www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
emiLy Q.
> I'll make a whole post so it can be found again in the archives moreAmen. I am SO thankful that these are the feelings/memories/realizations I
> easily. But read that link above and think of how many people, if
> their mothers read that page, will be spared a moment, as Robyn just
> described, in which they have a moment in which they reel and feel
> their whole life has just shifted and schismed. If our kids do feel
> that, in 40 years, let it be because they suddenly realize how much we
> did for them and how little we "had to" do it, within the prevailing
> culture of the day. Let it be a shift to appreciation, and not a
> sinking feeling that life could have been so much easier.
have towards/about my own mother/parents.
Amen.
-emiLy, mom to Delia (5) & Henry (1.5)
Happy Pottying!
http://www.HappyPottying.com