Sandra Dodd

"All I wanted was children. I wanted to be a mom. That's all I ever
wanted in my life," Suleman said in the portion of the interview that
aired Friday. "I love my children."

http://tinyurl.com/depanv

From an article on the recent mother of octuplets, in Los Angeles.
She already had six children. She's divorced. She was listed as
"unemployed," but I don't know if she's poor. All invitro
fertilization.

-=-All I wanted was children. I wanted to be a mom.-=-

She's going for quantity over quality. She's thinking about herself
and what SHE wants, but seems pretty unconcerned with what her
children might want. Any pregnancy is a risk, but octuplets? Two
sets of twins in there and four other babies? No thought of losing
her life and leaving the other six motherless?

I know a few times in the past I've been criticized for suggesting it
might be a good idea for a family to ease off on the reproduction if
they really do want to provide a good live for ANYone. I don't take
it back. The two biggest families I've personally known were one as
a kid, 18 or 20 kids, I've forgotten now because the number is so big
my brain starts to flutter. The oldest was the mother of the
youngest, but it was a big secret. Yeah. For a while they lived in
a little four room house. When #1 mothered #18 or 20, she was a teen.

I know a family with nine kids (last I knew) but they're in a
religion that promotes and supports that, and both the parents were
from families of over ten kids. When they lived here, they had
five. Later they had more, including a set of twins. The parents
are energetic and bright and dedicated to their religion and to their
family.

Meanwhile, back in non-extreme world, where does "extreme" start?

Sandra

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

For me and my personality I could have more than two kids if I was younger but I would want a big space between them.
I have friends that have big families and some are amazing and able to be there for all of them.
I cannot.  I feel divided. I feel I am not being a good enough mom or there when they both need me at the same time ( that is jsut my 2 kids 3 and a half years apart).
In this particular story I think this woman is not having all these kids for the right reason.
She is young and could have waited to use her other 6 eggs and not implant them all at once.
SHe has 2 year old twins. They must have been around one when she had those eggs implanted.
She says she did not have a happy childhood and missed having connections and siblings.
Sounds like she is having all these kids for herself.
I am not against big families at all.
But having kids to fill a void is not what I call being a good mom or doing for the sake of your kids.
A big family that I see being there for the kids is the Gray's:
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
Thier blog is great and they are unschoolers.

 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

> From an article on the recent mother of octuplets, in Los Angeles.
> She already had six children. She's divorced. She was listed as
> "unemployed," but I don't know if she's poor. All invitro
> fertilization.


The only thing that has really bothered me about this story, is the
implied assumption that her parents, the grandparents of all those kids,
are responsible for helping to care for them and they seem very unhappy
about it.

It would be really sad if the mother really had no income and no money,
but I'm assuming that since she was able to afford all the fertility
stuff, that she must have a source of revenue.

I'm trying not to read about it too much because it seems like
sensationalist news, even though I like human interest stories a lot.
The public criticism is hard to see, and she's gotten a LOT of
criticism. I feel sorry for her and her kids! I hope that she's a
better mom than most of the parents I see and run across in life!

Sandra Dodd

-=-I hope that she's a
better mom than most of the parents I see and run across in life!-=-



If she's the best mom ever born yet in the world, can she be
sufficient for twelve kids all by herself?

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dan Lake

>
> If she's the best mom ever born yet in the world, can she be
> sufficient for twelve kids all by herself?

I'm sure she could take care of 12 just fine, but unfortunately she
has 14 kids, no job and no husband, family, or community to help her
out. He oldest is not even 7 years yet. She is apparently attending
college and then she will be starting work to support the babies. Who
is going to watch her prepubescent platoon while she is away at work?

~Dan

>
> Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-I'm sure she could take care of 12 just fine, but unfortunately she
has 14 kids-=-

I guess I couldn't really imagine the magnitude of it.

Maybe some of the kids are brilliant and will figure out a way to
find happiness and camaraderie enough for all of them.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

Did the doctor (or team of) have any inkling (or care) that this
person already had 6 kids already?

~Katherine



On 2/7/09, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> -=-I'm sure she could take care of 12 just fine, but unfortunately she
> has 14 kids-=-
>
> I guess I couldn't really imagine the magnitude of it.
>
> Maybe some of the kids are brilliant and will figure out a way to
> find happiness and camaraderie enough for all of them.
>
>
>
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-Did the doctor (or team of) have any inkling (or care) that this
person already had 6 kids already?-=-

Yes. That's what the first link I brought was about. They're
investigating the doctor. He's the same one who did the egg
implantation for the other babies, as I understood it.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

-=-Did the doctor (or team of) have any inkling (or care) that this
person already had 6 kids already?-=-

>>>> Yes. That's what the first link I brought was about. They're
investigating the doctor. He's the same one who did the egg
implantation for the other babies, as I understood it. <<<<


AH.... yikes.

~Katherine

Ed Wendell

In the movie "Cheaper By The Dozen" one of the kids runs away from home because he just feels like another number and no one has time to really get to know him, take time for him and to care for him to be himself. No one ever really listens to him. He is kind of different from all the others and feels he does not fit in.

Lisa W.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Margaret

Is that in the book as well? I read the books a long time ago and I
don't remember getting that impression at all. It is a true story. I
thought it made big families sound fun, although theirs was rather odd
with the way their dad did things.

I'm one of five as is my mom. My dad was the oldest of three. There
were downsides, I am sure, but I like having lots of siblings. We
have two kids and we are definitely pausing and probably stopping with
two. My husband is one of two and thought that was a good number. I
thought 4 was a good number, but at this point I think I'm too tired
for 4 :) If I got pregnant now we would be very happy and things
would be just fine, but we aren't going to try for it for a while if
at all. Maybe when they are a little older it will seem like a good
idea to have more: my daughter (5.5) desperately wants a baby sister
and I think three kids might be really nice much of the time.... but
there are other things that make not having another baby seem like the
best plan... so we'll see.

I have known people with very large families and it seemed as though
there were problems with kids not getting enough attention or with the
older kids (daughters, esp) being imposed upon to take care of the
younger children. In situations like this it does seem as though it
would have been kinder to the older children to stop trying to have
kids. If there is a surprise, fine, but the things we are talking
about are people trying to have very very large families even if it
isn't really fair to the ones they have.

Margaret

On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 6:30 PM, Ed Wendell <ewendell@...> wrote:
> In the movie "Cheaper By The Dozen" one of the kids runs away from home
> because he just feels like another number and no one has time to really get
> to know him, take time for him and to care for him to be himself. No one
> ever really listens to him. He is kind of different from all the others and
> feels he does not fit in.
>
> Lisa W.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

claire.horsley08

We are definitely stopping at 2. I'm one of 2, but my partner is number 4 out of 5. He did
not have a happy childhood, and although he is a great partner and father, I still have to
grapple with the consequences of his not having his emotional needs met as a child. (I'm
not saying it would be like that in every large family of course.) I would consider a family
with more than 3 kids to be a large family. I know one family with 6 kids (not unschoolers)
and their lives seem very hectic, very rushed, and the mum spends a lot of time cleaning
and the youngest doesn't seem to get much of a look-in at all. As for 14, well I'm with you
Sandra, my brain can't even process that.

I have found that attachment parenting/unschooling is by far the most nourishing and
rewarding way to live our lives, but it is pretty intense. I want to concentrate the energy
and resources I have on my 2 girls ( and I remind myself of that every time I hold a friend's
newborn baby!)

I think for each parent there must be a tipping point in the number of kids, beyond which
you are not capable of joyfully and calmly ensuring that everyone's needs are met because
you are stretched too thin. I know I've reached my tipping point, but unfortunately in
some families they only discover the tipping point by going over it.

Ed Wendell

didn't read the book. It was just this one kid that felt out of sorts and unappreciated. Probably one snippet of their lives that stood out and made a good central point to the movie. you know - crisis and resolution.

Lisa

----- Original Message -----
From: Margaret

Is that in the book as well? I read the books a long time ago and I
don't remember getting that impression at all. It is a true story. I
thought it made big families sound fun, although theirs was rather odd
with the way their dad did things.

.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

saturnfire16

In the movie "Cheaper By The Dozen" one of the kids runs away from
home because he just feels like another number and no one has time to
really get to know him, take time for him and to care for him to be
himself. No one ever really listens to him. He is kind of different
from all the others and feels he does not fit in.
>
> Lisa W.
>


I ran away for similar reasons when I was a kid. I do have siblings,
but I was raised for most of my childhood as an only child. The
siblings didn't live with us.

I think it has less to do with the number of children a couple has,
and more to do with their temperment and the quality of parenting. I
think homeschooling, especially unschooling, and attachment parenting
would make a large family much more doable. On the other hand, I
cannot imagine doing it if they were all in public school and we were
trying to force other artificial schedules (sleeping, eating etc.) on
them. I'm sure that after the kids were in school all day, came
home, ate dinner, did homework, there would be precious little time
for one-on-one parenting interaction.

I have two children, and plan to have more, though we don't have a
particular number in mind. We'll see how things play out as they get
older and decide where to stop from there.

Emily

elwazani

--- In [email protected], "saturnfire16"
<saturnfire16@...> wrote:
>
> I think it has less to do with the number of children a couple has,
> and more to do with their temperment and the quality of parenting. I
> think homeschooling, especially unschooling, and attachment parenting
> would make a large family much more doable.

I was thinking of this thread this a.m. as I showered using the
homemade soap my friend gave me...see, she is an attachment parenting,
cloth diapering...nurse till they stop, close to unschooling mom...of
9...and usually has an extra 1 or 2 teenagers who are in need of
shelter and a family...she takes in stray animals too...the house is
usaually cluttered, but very full of joy, money may be tight but food
is always there for who ever walks in hungry...she never asks an
unwilling child to stay with younger siblings...and it all seems to
work for them...I HAVE see the opposite in another family with 7 kids
and could see how depending which one you came accross could color your
view of larger homeschooling families.

Laureen

Heya

On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 9:24 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> She's going for quantity over quality. She's thinking about herself
> and what SHE wants, but seems pretty unconcerned with what her
> children might want. Any pregnancy is a risk, but octuplets? Two
> sets of twins in there and four other babies? No thought of losing
> her life and leaving the other six motherless?


Yeah, the snarling in the back of my brain is pretty intense.

>
>
> Meanwhile, back in non-extreme world, where does "extreme" start?


I am an only child of two only children. My mother's father remarried once
my grandma passed, and fathered three more kids, but they don't really
consider themselves family (due to the machinations of my
ex-step-grandmother, who is evil. But that's another tirade entirely.)

My husband comes from big families. He's one of three, his mom is one of
nine, his dad one of three, but grandpa one of like 11 or 12 or something.
Dysfunction junction every way you look.

My parenting mentor/guru, the person to whom I look whenever I'm really
desperate about something, has 10 children. Because she and her husband
really, really like them. Her oldest two are boys, 26 and 24, married women
that my pal adores, girls who both came back to her house for college
breaks, rather than their own homes, and the two boys bought houses on the
same street as each other, so they could raise their families together. I
figure anyone who can pull that off is someone I want to emulate. =)

I now have three children. I only was planning on one. Then he was, frankly,
incredible, and my husband and I said... let's do that again! And had #2,
who is an amazing person. And we were going to stop there, but then I
conceived, and miscarried, and that was so gutwrenching, that I knew that #3
was a good idea. And now she's here too, and the dynamic with three kids is
just awesome. It's like she's the salt in the dish the other two made, that
evens everything out and unifies it.

Having three kids in the SF Bay Area of CA sucks. I get looks and comments
pretty much every time we venture out in public. You know, cause three is
sooooooo extravagant and we are being soooooo wasteful of resources. Never
mind that because of thrift, hand me downs, and homebirth, baby #3 cost
basically nothing. Never mind that we live on a boat and use approximately
one eight of the resources we did to run a house on land with one fewer
person. People will judge, and it's been my experience so far that they
judge on their own preconceptions, and not on the evidence before them.

But that's OK; we had our family because *we* wanted to, because we wanted
to share the joy that we could create amongst ourselves, not because we were
looking to garner the approval of some of the most child-hostile people on
the planet.

Having said that, it's hypocritical of me to judge the Octuplet mom. OTOH,
knowing what I know about the energy needs of just three kids with three
years between them, I have no clue how a single human being could possibly
hope to really raise them. If she's got answers, I'd love to hear them. I
just cannot figure it out myself.

--
~~L!

~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~
Writing here:
http://www.theexcellentadventure.com/

Evolving here:
http://www.consciouswoman.org/
~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

cherylsjoy

> Who > is going to watch her prepubescent platoon while she
is away at work?
>
> ~Dan
>

National daycare: Public School, of course.

Cheryl

elwazani

--- In [email protected], "cherylsjoy" <cheryletzel@...>
wrote:
>
> > Who > is going to watch her prepubescent platoon while she
> is away at work?
> >
> > ~Dan
> >
>
> National daycare: Public School, of course.
>
> Cheryl
>
How ever that won't be for at least six years for her lasat
eight...that's a LOT of sitter time before that...I hated having to
work when my oldest was young and at least his dad was with him as we
worked opposite shifts...I did second so I spent most of Z's waking
hours with him...my other three I was fulltime stay home with and it
was SUCH a difference...Beverly