Sensitive kids at conferences
Robin Bentley
I am the raffle/silent auction coordinator for the Life is Good
conference in Vancouver, WA this year and wanted to ask if anyone had
some ideas (either from experiences at conferences with their own kids
or observing what happens with other families) to help sensitive
children deal with the disappointment of "losing" a raffle item or
being outbid on a particularly tempting auction basket.
We already have an "Instant Gratification Table" with mostly little
kid stuff for a $1 ticket, which helps. But both young and older kids
have fallen apart when the results of the raffle and auction are known.
A few of us have discussed the possibility of a less "competitive"
fundraising method (and that's a topic for another time, I think), but
we're not at that stage yet. We just want to be able to help the
sensitive kids and their parents navigate this part of the conference,
in that rarified atmosphere.
I'm planning to talk about this on the Life is Good conference list,
too, and appreciate any insights or ideas you all might have for me to
bring there.
Thanks.
Robin B.
conference in Vancouver, WA this year and wanted to ask if anyone had
some ideas (either from experiences at conferences with their own kids
or observing what happens with other families) to help sensitive
children deal with the disappointment of "losing" a raffle item or
being outbid on a particularly tempting auction basket.
We already have an "Instant Gratification Table" with mostly little
kid stuff for a $1 ticket, which helps. But both young and older kids
have fallen apart when the results of the raffle and auction are known.
A few of us have discussed the possibility of a less "competitive"
fundraising method (and that's a topic for another time, I think), but
we're not at that stage yet. We just want to be able to help the
sensitive kids and their parents navigate this part of the conference,
in that rarified atmosphere.
I'm planning to talk about this on the Life is Good conference list,
too, and appreciate any insights or ideas you all might have for me to
bring there.
Thanks.
Robin B.
Sandra Dodd
-=-I am the raffle/silent auction coordinator for the Life is Good
conference in Vancouver, WA this year and wanted to ask if anyone had
some ideas (either from experiences at conferences with their own kids
or observing what happens with other families) to help sensitive
children deal with the disappointment of "losing" a raffle item or
being outbid on a particularly tempting auction basket.-=-
Talk to parents about not getting kids' hopes up. Talk to the raffle
personnel about not SELLING the idea of winning, but thanking them
for the donation and letting them know what that money will be used
for, maybe?
But mostly I would think don't have an raffle.
If the purpose of unschooling is to make kids comfortable and help
them learn,and if the purpose of the conferences is to help parents
see unschooling at its best, and if a family's dynamics and
personalities and dealings are such that somehow the parents made any
kind of implied promise of raffles being about winning, or said
ANYthing like "Which thing do you want?" then it's the parent's fault
and not the kids' problem for being sensitive.
Raffles are about losing. The majority of those who buy a raffle
ticket for an item lose, even if there are only three tickets.
Maybe it's not a good thing to do in a group of people who are
working toward creating an environment in which each child is a
winner (or whatever).
In school, not everyone will get an A, and that's even if everyone
were to really try. If too many people made A's, they'd raise the
hurdle, make the test harder or whatever. A raffle with one winner
and 200 losers is designed to keep the money of the losers. It's
gambling. And honestly, in some (maybe all) states, it's not even
legal unless the raffle tickets are issued by the state (or printed
at an approved printshop, bonded, familiar with all the laws...) and
registered and all kinds of legalities about what kind of group can
hold a raffle and why and under what circumstances, and...
It's not that I haven't participated in raffles at unschooling
conferences, but as soon as one kid's crying, it seems it wasn't
worth the money that was gathered.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
conference in Vancouver, WA this year and wanted to ask if anyone had
some ideas (either from experiences at conferences with their own kids
or observing what happens with other families) to help sensitive
children deal with the disappointment of "losing" a raffle item or
being outbid on a particularly tempting auction basket.-=-
Talk to parents about not getting kids' hopes up. Talk to the raffle
personnel about not SELLING the idea of winning, but thanking them
for the donation and letting them know what that money will be used
for, maybe?
But mostly I would think don't have an raffle.
If the purpose of unschooling is to make kids comfortable and help
them learn,and if the purpose of the conferences is to help parents
see unschooling at its best, and if a family's dynamics and
personalities and dealings are such that somehow the parents made any
kind of implied promise of raffles being about winning, or said
ANYthing like "Which thing do you want?" then it's the parent's fault
and not the kids' problem for being sensitive.
Raffles are about losing. The majority of those who buy a raffle
ticket for an item lose, even if there are only three tickets.
Maybe it's not a good thing to do in a group of people who are
working toward creating an environment in which each child is a
winner (or whatever).
In school, not everyone will get an A, and that's even if everyone
were to really try. If too many people made A's, they'd raise the
hurdle, make the test harder or whatever. A raffle with one winner
and 200 losers is designed to keep the money of the losers. It's
gambling. And honestly, in some (maybe all) states, it's not even
legal unless the raffle tickets are issued by the state (or printed
at an approved printshop, bonded, familiar with all the laws...) and
registered and all kinds of legalities about what kind of group can
hold a raffle and why and under what circumstances, and...
It's not that I haven't participated in raffles at unschooling
conferences, but as soon as one kid's crying, it seems it wasn't
worth the money that was gathered.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
The same thing happened at ARGH with the candy raffle. Gee, *I* was
disappointed and I'm not a kid (just love chocolate). Here's an idea.
Have gifts for all the kids rather than raffles. The parents can be
given the heads up that there is a "silent fundraiser" to replace the
old raffle and for anyone who enjoyed seeing the kids getting stuff in
the past, the gifts for everyone could replace the raffle. You know
I sort of fantasized for a second that it would be fun to have a
cotton candy machine and while the kids are gathered round getting
their cotton candy and/or just watching it being made, the adults
could be having the silent fundraiser donations taken up.
~Katherine
disappointed and I'm not a kid (just love chocolate). Here's an idea.
Have gifts for all the kids rather than raffles. The parents can be
given the heads up that there is a "silent fundraiser" to replace the
old raffle and for anyone who enjoyed seeing the kids getting stuff in
the past, the gifts for everyone could replace the raffle. You know
I sort of fantasized for a second that it would be fun to have a
cotton candy machine and while the kids are gathered round getting
their cotton candy and/or just watching it being made, the adults
could be having the silent fundraiser donations taken up.
~Katherine
On 2/6/09, Robin Bentley <robin.bentley@...> wrote:
> I am the raffle/silent auction coordinator for the Life is Good
> conference in Vancouver, WA this year and wanted to ask if anyone had
> some ideas (either from experiences at conferences with their own kids
> or observing what happens with other families) to help sensitive
> children deal with the disappointment of "losing" a raffle item or
> being outbid on a particularly tempting auction basket.
>
> We already have an "Instant Gratification Table" with mostly little
> kid stuff for a $1 ticket, which helps. But both young and older kids
> have fallen apart when the results of the raffle and auction are known.
>
> A few of us have discussed the possibility of a less "competitive"
> fundraising method (and that's a topic for another time, I think), but
> we're not at that stage yet. We just want to be able to help the
> sensitive kids and their parents navigate this part of the conference,
> in that rarified atmosphere.
>
> I'm planning to talk about this on the Life is Good conference list,
> too, and appreciate any insights or ideas you all might have for me to
> bring there.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Robin B.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
John and Amanda Slater
At Live and Learn the raffle was set up in a building that was only for speakers. For me that made it easy to not even tell my kids about it. I knew it would be frustrating waiting and most likely not winning.
Amanda
Eli 7, Samuel 6
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Amanda
Eli 7, Samuel 6
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
carnationsgalore
> I sort of fantasized for a second that it would be fun to have aHaving never been to an unschooling gathering, I'm not sure what the
> cotton candy machine and while the kids are gathered round getting
> their cotton candy and/or just watching it being made, the adults
> could be having the silent fundraiser donations taken up.
fundraising is for; however, I think paying for a service is a better
money maker in a situation like this. I was in charge of my local
park's football/cheerleader kickoff last year and the kids LOVED the
snowcone machine. I think it was $50 to rent and our park charged
$1.00 for each cup. Personally I think they should have charged .50
instead. They made $400 which I thought amazing off one snow cone
machine for a very small park. :)
Beth
Sandra Dodd
What is the purpose of the fundraiser? I see fundraisers at
conferences and I don't know WHY. Scholarships. Some families apply
to get their conference fee free, at some ongoing conferences. Maybe
the fundraising is to provide seed money for the next year. But the
conferences don't exist to raise money.
If it's fun, great! I've seen "passion baskets" that were beautiful
things to see and create and win, but as with anything else
unschooling related, if it's not fun, why do it?
Sandra
conferences and I don't know WHY. Scholarships. Some families apply
to get their conference fee free, at some ongoing conferences. Maybe
the fundraising is to provide seed money for the next year. But the
conferences don't exist to raise money.
If it's fun, great! I've seen "passion baskets" that were beautiful
things to see and create and win, but as with anything else
unschooling related, if it's not fun, why do it?
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
I had another idea about raffles.
Maybe they should all be things for adults--boring mom stuff. Or if
it's exciting, wrap it in brown paper and let the adults put tickets
in on things but find something else for the kids to do with their
tickets, if they buy any. Or don't sell any to kids.
It's not a perfect idea, but it's a better idea than an array of cool
stuff and selling a kid something that turns out to be two days of
hope and then a big letdown. What learning purpose does THAT serve?
Sandra
Maybe they should all be things for adults--boring mom stuff. Or if
it's exciting, wrap it in brown paper and let the adults put tickets
in on things but find something else for the kids to do with their
tickets, if they buy any. Or don't sell any to kids.
It's not a perfect idea, but it's a better idea than an array of cool
stuff and selling a kid something that turns out to be two days of
hope and then a big letdown. What learning purpose does THAT serve?
Sandra
Schuyler
What about just selling the stuff? You could come up with prices for donated goods and just sell things. That way they aren't left there to be hoped and dreamed about, they are just sold first come first serve.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, 7 February, 2009 7:43:41 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Sensitive kids at conferences
I had another idea about raffles.
Maybe they should all be things for adults--boring mom stuff. Or if
it's exciting, wrap it in brown paper and let the adults put tickets
in on things but find something else for the kids to do with their
tickets, if they buy any. Or don't sell any to kids.
It's not a perfect idea, but it's a better idea than an array of cool
stuff and selling a kid something that turns out to be two days of
hope and then a big letdown. What learning purpose does THAT serve?
Sandra
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, 7 February, 2009 7:43:41 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Sensitive kids at conferences
I had another idea about raffles.
Maybe they should all be things for adults--boring mom stuff. Or if
it's exciting, wrap it in brown paper and let the adults put tickets
in on things but find something else for the kids to do with their
tickets, if they buy any. Or don't sell any to kids.
It's not a perfect idea, but it's a better idea than an array of cool
stuff and selling a kid something that turns out to be two days of
hope and then a big letdown. What learning purpose does THAT serve?
Sandra
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
> I am the raffle/silent auction coordinator for the Life is GoodPerhaps some of the proceeds could go to grab bags for the following
> conference in Vancouver, WA this year and wanted to ask if anyone had
> some ideas (either from experiences at conferences with their own kids
> or observing what happens with other families) to help sensitive
> children deal with the disappointment of "losing" a raffle item or
> being outbid on a particularly tempting auction basket.
year to be given to all the children along with the winners of the
raffle. My kids love raffles, and they don't even mind being
disappointed when they don't win, but then, we usually don't buy huge
amounts of tickets in the hope of winning either. We usually will buy a
couple of tickets, and use the rest of our money for other purchases.
So it's more like, we have $20 and we can use half for the raffle and
then you may buy whatever with the rest, so they are usually happy with
that because they get something wether or not they win and if they win,
then it's just an extra bonus.
But then, Marguax usually wins things like raffles, so is not usually
let down. However, I would have purchased stuff from the instant
gratification table, had she not won, and had she been so disappointed
that she was unable to let it go.
Lyla Wolfenstein
i really like that idea - the raffle - and the silent auction - appealing to adults and not enticing/a let down for kids. i have one of those sensitive kids, and, although we've managed to work together to not get too worked up with hope/anticipation, it is still a let down for sure, if the cherished item isn't won....
and he'd *gladly* spend money on items for sale, rather than for raffle, so he could know just what he was getting. I, on the other hand - LOVE silent auctions (not raffles as much, but i know others do) and would hate to see them discontinued.
and he'd *gladly* spend money on items for sale, rather than for raffle, so he could know just what he was getting. I, on the other hand - LOVE silent auctions (not raffles as much, but i know others do) and would hate to see them discontinued.
----- Original Message -----
From: Sandra Dodd
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Sensitive kids at conferences
I had another idea about raffles.
Maybe they should all be things for adults--boring mom stuff. Or if
it's exciting, wrap it in brown paper and let the adults put tickets
in on things but find something else for the kids to do with their
tickets, if they buy any. Or don't sell any to kids.
It's not a perfect idea, but it's a better idea than an array of cool
stuff and selling a kid something that turns out to be two days of
hope and then a big letdown. What learning purpose does THAT serve?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Flo Gascon
--- In [email protected], Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
be hoped and dreamed about, they are just sold first come first serve.
Gratification Table where goodies are traded for one ticket each. Each
raffle item could be priced with "5 raffle tickets" or "8 raffle
tickets" and enjoyed right away.
For the Good Vibrations Conference I'm organizing for September, the
money collected will be used to build a scholarship fund for future
conferences. I certainly don't want unhappy kids in exchange for a
little money so I'm glad for this discussion.
Flo
>donated goods and just sell things. That way they aren't left there to
> What about just selling the stuff? You could come up with prices for
be hoped and dreamed about, they are just sold first come first serve.
>I really like this idea, kind of like an extension of the Instant
Gratification Table where goodies are traded for one ticket each. Each
raffle item could be priced with "5 raffle tickets" or "8 raffle
tickets" and enjoyed right away.
For the Good Vibrations Conference I'm organizing for September, the
money collected will be used to build a scholarship fund for future
conferences. I certainly don't want unhappy kids in exchange for a
little money so I'm glad for this discussion.
Flo
Bea
--- In [email protected], Robin Bentley
<robin.bentley@...> wrote:
year old and without my husband. One problem I had was not that my dd
was disappointed that she lost, but that she wanted to touch
everything, and I was afraid she'd damage something, so it was
*highly* stressful for me to go in that room (which was the room where
most of the talks were given) and I ended up not going to many of the
talks. I think it would have helped me if there weren't so many
appealing things in that room that were not meant to be played with.
I know it's not exactly what you're asking, but just thought I'd
suggest that if you are having a raffle, you should maybe put the
items in a separate room which parents with young kids can avoid.
Bea
<robin.bentley@...> wrote:
>I went to the Live and Learn conference in September with my almost 3
> I am the raffle/silent auction coordinator for the Life is Good
> conference in Vancouver, WA this year and wanted to ask if anyone had
> some ideas (either from experiences at conferences with their own kids
> or observing what happens with other families) to help sensitive
> children deal with the disappointment of "losing" a raffle item or
> being outbid on a particularly tempting auction basket.
>
>
year old and without my husband. One problem I had was not that my dd
was disappointed that she lost, but that she wanted to touch
everything, and I was afraid she'd damage something, so it was
*highly* stressful for me to go in that room (which was the room where
most of the talks were given) and I ended up not going to many of the
talks. I think it would have helped me if there weren't so many
appealing things in that room that were not meant to be played with.
I know it's not exactly what you're asking, but just thought I'd
suggest that if you are having a raffle, you should maybe put the
items in a separate room which parents with young kids can avoid.
Bea
k
>>>> I went to the Live and Learn conference in September with my almost 3year old and without my husband. One problem I had was not that my dd
was disappointed that she lost, but that she wanted to touch
everything, and I was afraid she'd damage something, so it was
*highly* stressful for me to go in that room (which was the room where
most of the talks were given) and I ended up not going to many of the
talks. I think it would have helped me if there weren't so many
appealing things in that room that were not meant to be played with. ........
........ I know it's not exactly what you're asking, but just thought I'd
suggest that if you are having a raffle, you should maybe put the
items in a separate room which parents with young kids can avoid. <<<<
Which would definitely cut way back on pining for stuff, and the
unintentional messing with the kids' minds. Much of the psychology
behind raffling is to create a feeling of scarcity and to encourage a
bid for the goods on display. The whole point of donating for
conference seed funds and scholarships is lost if the prize is the
visual impetus for donation. A lot like the whole point of school is
lost if the impetus for learning is grades.
I thought about going for a scholarship a couple of years ago myself,
yet like others have said I feel that rethinking the raffle is spot on
since what anybody (not just kids) learns from them is not worth
emphasizing in my opinion.
~Katherine
~Katherine
Margaret
YES!
At LIG last year there was a huge amount of stuff that was enticing to
kids on top of a table at the back of the room. This was the part of
the room with a nice open area for younger kids to play quietly while
their parents watched the talk... It made it MUCH harder to go to any
talks. If they had the raffle items at the front of the room and the
space in back was actually little kid friendly it would have been
sooooo much easier to make the conference work for me. I made it to
about 10 minutes of talks total. It was just too hard.
Margaret
At LIG last year there was a huge amount of stuff that was enticing to
kids on top of a table at the back of the room. This was the part of
the room with a nice open area for younger kids to play quietly while
their parents watched the talk... It made it MUCH harder to go to any
talks. If they had the raffle items at the front of the room and the
space in back was actually little kid friendly it would have been
sooooo much easier to make the conference work for me. I made it to
about 10 minutes of talks total. It was just too hard.
Margaret
On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 3:55 PM, Bea <bmantovani@...> wrote:
> I went to the Live and Learn conference in September with my almost 3
> year old and without my husband. One problem I had was not that my dd
> was disappointed that she lost, but that she wanted to touch
> everything, and I was afraid she'd damage something, so it was
> *highly* stressful for me to go in that room (which was the room where
> most of the talks were given) and I ended up not going to many of the
> talks. I think it would have helped me if there weren't so many
> appealing things in that room that were not meant to be played with.
>
> I know it's not exactly what you're asking, but just thought I'd
> suggest that if you are having a raffle, you should maybe put the
> items in a separate room which parents with young kids can avoid.
>
> Bea
>
>
Krisula Moyer
I'm really happy to see this discussion. My two daughters are always
intensly affected by the raffles one way or another. The youngest is
often beside herself with anticipation and then elated or devastated
by the result. Her intense personality is something we just love
about her but raffles are hard and silent auctions are even harder.
I remember feeling grateful at LIG a couple years ago simply because I
felt the freedom to sit with her and help her through her feelings
without feeling that all eyes were on us about it. She is getting a
bit more graceful about losing as she gets older (she's 8 now) but she
still experiences the intense feelings just as strong as when she was
three or four.
I would hate to see the whole thing go away - but exploring options
about how to be as sensitive as possible is a good idea.
intensly affected by the raffles one way or another. The youngest is
often beside herself with anticipation and then elated or devastated
by the result. Her intense personality is something we just love
about her but raffles are hard and silent auctions are even harder.
I remember feeling grateful at LIG a couple years ago simply because I
felt the freedom to sit with her and help her through her feelings
without feeling that all eyes were on us about it. She is getting a
bit more graceful about losing as she gets older (she's 8 now) but she
still experiences the intense feelings just as strong as when she was
three or four.
I would hate to see the whole thing go away - but exploring options
about how to be as sensitive as possible is a good idea.
Sandra Dodd
-=-She is getting a bit more graceful about losing as she gets older-=-
I don't see the advantage to unschooling conferences adopting a
practice that causes so many people to be losers. There are other
ways to gather money into a pile, if that's really necessary.
It seems that other conferences are copying slavishly from earlier
Live and Learn conferences. A good idea doesn't have to become a
sacred tradition or granite-hard baserock of conferences. And often
a good idea seems good because it's new. Once it's the 8th annual,
the newness is all gone and it can start to accumulate the lost
paperwork and disappointment and mismanagement (however small past
problems were, they attach to it and build) of all the years before.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don't see the advantage to unschooling conferences adopting a
practice that causes so many people to be losers. There are other
ways to gather money into a pile, if that's really necessary.
It seems that other conferences are copying slavishly from earlier
Live and Learn conferences. A good idea doesn't have to become a
sacred tradition or granite-hard baserock of conferences. And often
a good idea seems good because it's new. Once it's the 8th annual,
the newness is all gone and it can start to accumulate the lost
paperwork and disappointment and mismanagement (however small past
problems were, they attach to it and build) of all the years before.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam L
<< It seems that other conferences are copying slavishly from earlier
Live and Learn conferences. A good idea doesn't have to become a sacred
tradition or granite-hard baserock of conferences. >>
That's one of the benefits of having the numerous conferences that have
sprung up around the US and Canada over the last few years: the variety
of conference and gathering experiences available. L&L conferences were
wonderfully fun and inspiring but I don't think they've become
entrenched as a sacred tradition.
Each organizer can create the unique conference experience they most
want to share with others, and for some that may closely model the L&L
experience, and for others not as much. For example, with sensitive
kids of my own, I chose not have a raffle at the Toronto conference and
have taken a different route with scholarships over the years, among
other things.
One of the great lasting effects of L&L is the number of new conferences
it inspired, giving unschoolers a wider range of events to choose from.
Pam L
Live and Learn conferences. A good idea doesn't have to become a sacred
tradition or granite-hard baserock of conferences. >>
That's one of the benefits of having the numerous conferences that have
sprung up around the US and Canada over the last few years: the variety
of conference and gathering experiences available. L&L conferences were
wonderfully fun and inspiring but I don't think they've become
entrenched as a sacred tradition.
Each organizer can create the unique conference experience they most
want to share with others, and for some that may closely model the L&L
experience, and for others not as much. For example, with sensitive
kids of my own, I chose not have a raffle at the Toronto conference and
have taken a different route with scholarships over the years, among
other things.
One of the great lasting effects of L&L is the number of new conferences
it inspired, giving unschoolers a wider range of events to choose from.
Pam L
Sandra Dodd
-=-That's one of the benefits of having the numerous conferences that
have
sprung up around the US and Canada over the last few years: the variety
of conference and gathering experiences available. L&L conferences were
wonderfully fun and inspiring but I don't think they've become
entrenched as a sacred tradition.-=-
When the newness is what's fun, copying the old doesn't create more
fun newness.
Pam has run a conference near Toronto and is doing it again, so she
knows what she's talking about:
http://livingjoyfully.ca/conference/
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
have
sprung up around the US and Canada over the last few years: the variety
of conference and gathering experiences available. L&L conferences were
wonderfully fun and inspiring but I don't think they've become
entrenched as a sacred tradition.-=-
When the newness is what's fun, copying the old doesn't create more
fun newness.
Pam has run a conference near Toronto and is doing it again, so she
knows what she's talking about:
http://livingjoyfully.ca/conference/
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
Thanks, everyone, for your input so far (and I'm happy to get more, if
anyone feels so inclined). Having a sensitive kid myself, I appreciate
the feedback.
I have my own feelings of discomfort around the whole thing and have
attempted to make some changes. I thought it was only me and maybe one
other mum who felt this way. So far, I hadn't come up with anything
solid enough to put forward as an alternative. I now have some more
ideas!
Robin B.
anyone feels so inclined). Having a sensitive kid myself, I appreciate
the feedback.
I have my own feelings of discomfort around the whole thing and have
attempted to make some changes. I thought it was only me and maybe one
other mum who felt this way. So far, I hadn't come up with anything
solid enough to put forward as an alternative. I now have some more
ideas!
Robin B.
nymodels2
I guess that's life? sat @ football a HS boy was crying because he didn't get the medal of the week. everyone is to get one by the end of the season. last season everyone got one but my DD who is one of the better cheerleaders & wonderfully behaved, she's 9. an oversight but i think it wasn't right, the last week they give everyone a trophy so they said why bother w/ her medal. i called about it & my DD's 1st week there this season... <she missed the 1st camping @ a civil war raid.> .. wouldn't u know she got the medal.
In a message dated 02/07/09 14:44:10 Eastern Standard Time, Sandra@... writes:
I had another idea about raffles.
Maybe they should all be things for adults--boring mom stuff. Or if
it's exciting, wrap it in brown paper and let the adults put tickets
in on things but find something else for the kids to do with their
tickets, if they buy any. Or don't sell any to kids.
It's not a perfect idea, but it's a better idea than an array of cool
stuff and selling a kid something that turns out to be two days of
hope and then a big letdown. What learning purpose does THAT serve?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
In a message dated 02/07/09 14:44:10 Eastern Standard Time, Sandra@... writes:
I had another idea about raffles.
Maybe they should all be things for adults--boring mom stuff. Or if
it's exciting, wrap it in brown paper and let the adults put tickets
in on things but find something else for the kids to do with their
tickets, if they buy any. Or don't sell any to kids.
It's not a perfect idea, but it's a better idea than an array of cool
stuff and selling a kid something that turns out to be two days of
hope and then a big letdown. What learning purpose does THAT serve?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I guess that's life? sat @ football a HS boy was crying because he
didn't get the medal of the week.-=-
Lots of tacky rudeness and disappointment and frustration are "life."
There are some parts of life that unschooling can prevent little kids
from needing to experience.
Football doesn't require medals and trophies. Unschooling isn't about
medals and trophies or being the anything-of-the-week. Those are
situations that create one winner and X-1 losers, X being the number
of kids on the team, in the class, at the school, whatever. Each
award moment creates LOTS of losers.
That's not a good unschooling goal to have, nor situation to encourage.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
didn't get the medal of the week.-=-
Lots of tacky rudeness and disappointment and frustration are "life."
There are some parts of life that unschooling can prevent little kids
from needing to experience.
Football doesn't require medals and trophies. Unschooling isn't about
medals and trophies or being the anything-of-the-week. Those are
situations that create one winner and X-1 losers, X being the number
of kids on the team, in the class, at the school, whatever. Each
award moment creates LOTS of losers.
That's not a good unschooling goal to have, nor situation to encourage.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
>>>> Football doesn't require medals and trophies. Unschooling isn't aboutmedals and trophies or being the anything-of-the-week. Those are
situations that create one winner and X-1 losers, X being the number
of kids on the team, in the class, at the school, whatever. Each
award moment creates LOTS of losers. <<<<
For sure it does create hey-what-about-me feelings in those so called
"losers" who rightly perceive themselves to be important as the next
person. In any (probably unnecessarily) competitive event, the groups
of recipients and non-recipients aren't appreciably different. It may
just so happen that effort yields the luck of the draw, not in
performance, but in having won. I felt that way as I watched the
Super Bowl and saw both teams as really amazing in their own unique
combination of strengths and weaknesses. The game itself filled me
with a sense of appreciation for their skill. While the trophy moment
was all about disappointment and guilt and probably a hundred other
conflicting emotions. Poo. I wish it weren't like that. Is it
really necessary? Does a fire really have to be lit under someone's
butt to get them to move or do they move because they really can and
they enjoy it?
~Katherine
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 9, 2009, at 7:07 AM, k wrote:
But for competitive people, they aren't having a fire lit beneath
their butts by others. They're deliberately entering a situation
where there's a goal that they can't control but they do have control
over reaching that goal. It's hard to push yourself to the maximum
when you set your own arbitrary goals.
It's not that people in general need to push themselves to the
maximum. But some people do love that feeling of driving themselves
beyond what they would be able to do on their own. It doesn't make
sense to foist that onto everyone, but it's not fair to the people
who love it to see them as being manipulated by some fire lighter.
Some towns nearby offer both competitive and noncompetitive adult
sports teams (volleyball and basketball are coming to mind). One is
not universally better than the other, but one is often better for
one individual than another. Depends what they like.
Raffles are different, though. There's no sense of personal
achievement. It's just luck (other than buying a whole lot of tickets!)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Does a fire really have to be lit under someone'sI think that's the image a non-competitive person might create ;-)
> butt to get them to move or do they move because they really can and
> they enjoy it?
But for competitive people, they aren't having a fire lit beneath
their butts by others. They're deliberately entering a situation
where there's a goal that they can't control but they do have control
over reaching that goal. It's hard to push yourself to the maximum
when you set your own arbitrary goals.
It's not that people in general need to push themselves to the
maximum. But some people do love that feeling of driving themselves
beyond what they would be able to do on their own. It doesn't make
sense to foist that onto everyone, but it's not fair to the people
who love it to see them as being manipulated by some fire lighter.
Some towns nearby offer both competitive and noncompetitive adult
sports teams (volleyball and basketball are coming to mind). One is
not universally better than the other, but one is often better for
one individual than another. Depends what they like.
Raffles are different, though. There's no sense of personal
achievement. It's just luck (other than buying a whole lot of tickets!)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
(Can of worms alert.) I don't see under-the-butt fire lighting as
needed for those with the drive, trophies or no. People may "like"
trophies or feel they need them but does that mean they need them to
perform well anymore than students need grades?
Of course the possibility of higher goals to attain may come from
outside, and I think still the choice to attempt goals is best from
within.
~Katherine
needed for those with the drive, trophies or no. People may "like"
trophies or feel they need them but does that mean they need them to
perform well anymore than students need grades?
Of course the possibility of higher goals to attain may come from
outside, and I think still the choice to attempt goals is best from
within.
~Katherine
On 2/9/09, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
> On Feb 9, 2009, at 7:07 AM, k wrote:
>
> > Does a fire really have to be lit under someone's
> > butt to get them to move or do they move because they really can and
> > they enjoy it?
>
>
> I think that's the image a non-competitive person might create ;-)
>
> But for competitive people, they aren't having a fire lit beneath
> their butts by others. They're deliberately entering a situation
> where there's a goal that they can't control but they do have control
> over reaching that goal. It's hard to push yourself to the maximum
> when you set your own arbitrary goals.
>
> It's not that people in general need to push themselves to the
> maximum. But some people do love that feeling of driving themselves
> beyond what they would be able to do on their own. It doesn't make
> sense to foist that onto everyone, but it's not fair to the people
> who love it to see them as being manipulated by some fire lighter.
>
> Some towns nearby offer both competitive and noncompetitive adult
> sports teams (volleyball and basketball are coming to mind). One is
> not universally better than the other, but one is often better for
> one individual than another. Depends what they like.
>
> Raffles are different, though. There's no sense of personal
> achievement. It's just luck (other than buying a whole lot of tickets!)
>
>
> Joyce
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Sandra Dodd
Kirby was in a karate dojo for many years that did not participate in
tournaments.
When Keith studied years before that under a student of that same
sensei, at the university, even though the martial art itself and the
philosophy were the very same, they did tournaments all the time.
The main teacher didn't like the pressure and add-ons of tournament
stuff. At least one of his students really did.
Keith was fine with tournaments.
Kirby wouldn't have been as fine.
Sandra
tournaments.
When Keith studied years before that under a student of that same
sensei, at the university, even though the martial art itself and the
philosophy were the very same, they did tournaments all the time.
The main teacher didn't like the pressure and add-ons of tournament
stuff. At least one of his students really did.
Keith was fine with tournaments.
Kirby wouldn't have been as fine.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
(none of this applies to raffles)
-=-Of course the possibility of higher goals to attain may come from
outside, and I think still the choice to attempt goals is best from
within.-=-
What's best isn't always what is, though.
Just this morning I was doing some SCA site stuff, and put up a backup
copy of a scholarly article on folk music, using a particular region
of the SCA (not where I live) to analyze the use of music, and how
it's changed and passed on. That's deeply interesting to me.
http://sandradodd.com/sca/folkmusic
and in the description of the community is this:
"Sexual equality is well advanced. While the activities chosen by
individuals still show a distinct gender bias, when it comes to actual
power and respect within the SCA, males and females are almost (but
not quite) equal. In eight of the last ten years the president of the
SCA has been female."
I was most of that female presidency myself! Cool mention. I never
had seen that article, because it was in a Canadian folklore journal
in 1989, and I was busy having babies in New Mexico.
SO ANYway, I linked a couple of pages to that. One is a description
of a "bardic competition" I designed and ran. It was very smooth, and
really good, and one way I prevented unhappiness with the judging is
that anyone who wanted to and who stayed for the whole thing could be
a judge. I don't love competitions, but the first evening we used
this format was fantastic, and the second time was at an international
SCA thing, the 25th anniversary event, and it worked really smoothly
then, too.
Without it having been a competition, maybe only half as many people
would've shown up, and the quality of the individual performances
would've been lower, either because they weren't on high alert, as it
were, or because they'd be singing songs they liked for one reason or
another, but weren't their best, or weren't the most period songs they
knew.
I don't like competitions, though, and for myself I prefer to do
something because it's a useful, good thing to do.
I have an article on music in the SCA, too. It's an old one, from
before I had kids.
http://sandradodd.com/periodvocalmusic
I didn't do that for any competitive purpose, neither the singing nor
the writing.
Sandra (feeling a little like AElflaed, in this discussion)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-Of course the possibility of higher goals to attain may come from
outside, and I think still the choice to attempt goals is best from
within.-=-
What's best isn't always what is, though.
Just this morning I was doing some SCA site stuff, and put up a backup
copy of a scholarly article on folk music, using a particular region
of the SCA (not where I live) to analyze the use of music, and how
it's changed and passed on. That's deeply interesting to me.
http://sandradodd.com/sca/folkmusic
and in the description of the community is this:
"Sexual equality is well advanced. While the activities chosen by
individuals still show a distinct gender bias, when it comes to actual
power and respect within the SCA, males and females are almost (but
not quite) equal. In eight of the last ten years the president of the
SCA has been female."
I was most of that female presidency myself! Cool mention. I never
had seen that article, because it was in a Canadian folklore journal
in 1989, and I was busy having babies in New Mexico.
SO ANYway, I linked a couple of pages to that. One is a description
of a "bardic competition" I designed and ran. It was very smooth, and
really good, and one way I prevented unhappiness with the judging is
that anyone who wanted to and who stayed for the whole thing could be
a judge. I don't love competitions, but the first evening we used
this format was fantastic, and the second time was at an international
SCA thing, the 25th anniversary event, and it worked really smoothly
then, too.
Without it having been a competition, maybe only half as many people
would've shown up, and the quality of the individual performances
would've been lower, either because they weren't on high alert, as it
were, or because they'd be singing songs they liked for one reason or
another, but weren't their best, or weren't the most period songs they
knew.
I don't like competitions, though, and for myself I prefer to do
something because it's a useful, good thing to do.
I have an article on music in the SCA, too. It's an old one, from
before I had kids.
http://sandradodd.com/periodvocalmusic
I didn't do that for any competitive purpose, neither the singing nor
the writing.
Sandra (feeling a little like AElflaed, in this discussion)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Leslie Buchanan's quote of the week list just sent this:
"Modern education is competitive, nationalistic and separative. It has
trained the child to regard material values as of major importance, to
believe that his nation is also of major importance and superior to
other nations and peoples. The general level of world information is
high but usually biased, influenced by national prejudices, serving to
make us citizens of our nation but not of the world."
- Albert Einstein
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"Modern education is competitive, nationalistic and separative. It has
trained the child to regard material values as of major importance, to
believe that his nation is also of major importance and superior to
other nations and peoples. The general level of world information is
high but usually biased, influenced by national prejudices, serving to
make us citizens of our nation but not of the world."
- Albert Einstein
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
It's great to make art with others and I do push myself to come up
with something new and different when I'm in a studio or class. New
for me anyway. I like seeing what I can do.
Even without awards, an interested audience is recognition. Art for
me has nothing to do with competition even though getting the "right"
recognition can make it possible to get more shows, money and stuff to
put on a resume. Others feel very differently, true. They enjoy the
competition.
~Katherine
believe that his nation is also of major importance and superior to
other nations and peoples. The general level of world information is
high but usually biased, influenced by national prejudices, serving to
make us citizens of our nation but not of the world."
- Albert Einstein <<<<
School children might not see themselves as part of a larger world
because the schoolthink all by itself along with national ideology or
bias has that effect. In other words some of what I see is directly
attributable to schoolthink (a lassitude or something) and some are
derivative truisms blanketed onto other stuff. Thoughts about
loyalty mix confusedly with thoughts about personal integrity, and
staying in those modes of thought makes it difficult to get clear.
~Katherine
with something new and different when I'm in a studio or class. New
for me anyway. I like seeing what I can do.
Even without awards, an interested audience is recognition. Art for
me has nothing to do with competition even though getting the "right"
recognition can make it possible to get more shows, money and stuff to
put on a resume. Others feel very differently, true. They enjoy the
competition.
~Katherine
>>>> "Modern education is competitive, nationalistic and separative. It hastrained the child to regard material values as of major importance, to
believe that his nation is also of major importance and superior to
other nations and peoples. The general level of world information is
high but usually biased, influenced by national prejudices, serving to
make us citizens of our nation but not of the world."
- Albert Einstein <<<<
School children might not see themselves as part of a larger world
because the schoolthink all by itself along with national ideology or
bias has that effect. In other words some of what I see is directly
attributable to schoolthink (a lassitude or something) and some are
derivative truisms blanketed onto other stuff. Thoughts about
loyalty mix confusedly with thoughts about personal integrity, and
staying in those modes of thought makes it difficult to get clear.
~Katherine