Need expert help here.
Brad
Hi all.
I'm currently in a discussion with this guy about unschooling and do
not want to give erroneous information. He has asked a couple
questions that I don't want to answer my usual dry way of answering so
I'm wondering if you guys would tell me how you would answer him so I
can attempt to formulate a decent answer. Here is his question:
/begin paste
"If I'm understanding this correctly, "unschooling" is about
encouraging and motivating a student/child to learn about what really
interests him or her rather than forcing upon the student/child the
exact same curriculum as everyone else. The idea behind this is that
this will produce students who are happier and much more motivated to
be part of the educational process, which will in turn produce more
productive doctors, engineers, chemists, etc. etc.
If I have all that correct, then I would have to follow-up with:
What's the process for uncovering what the student really wants to
learn about? Wouldn't we need to expose the student to multiple areas
of study or could we use something like a series of aptitude tests?
How would we institute "unschooling? " Would it be through a
combination of parental responsibility and public schooling?
Wouldn't there have to be a minimum set skills that all students would
need to learn? For example, I can't think of any area of study that
does not require the ability to read. Wouldn't this facilitate the
need for a basic educational program?"
/end paste
Brad
I'm currently in a discussion with this guy about unschooling and do
not want to give erroneous information. He has asked a couple
questions that I don't want to answer my usual dry way of answering so
I'm wondering if you guys would tell me how you would answer him so I
can attempt to formulate a decent answer. Here is his question:
/begin paste
"If I'm understanding this correctly, "unschooling" is about
encouraging and motivating a student/child to learn about what really
interests him or her rather than forcing upon the student/child the
exact same curriculum as everyone else. The idea behind this is that
this will produce students who are happier and much more motivated to
be part of the educational process, which will in turn produce more
productive doctors, engineers, chemists, etc. etc.
If I have all that correct, then I would have to follow-up with:
What's the process for uncovering what the student really wants to
learn about? Wouldn't we need to expose the student to multiple areas
of study or could we use something like a series of aptitude tests?
How would we institute "unschooling? " Would it be through a
combination of parental responsibility and public schooling?
Wouldn't there have to be a minimum set skills that all students would
need to learn? For example, I can't think of any area of study that
does not require the ability to read. Wouldn't this facilitate the
need for a basic educational program?"
/end paste
Brad
Margaret
Brad quoted someone saying this:
could read... which is nonsense. Maybe it would help him understand
unschooling better if you could encourage him to take a step back and
look at what people learn and ways of learning more broadly. If he
can really see the learning and discovery in what kids do before they
are taught to read, he might be able to understand unschooling better.
I do think that reading is amazingly useful as well as being fun, but
I don't think that my kids must be reading in order to have any other
learning happen.
Margaret
> Wouldn't there have to be a minimum set skills that all students wouldWell, if that were true then no one would learn ANYTHING until they
> need to learn? For example, I can't think of any area of study that
> does not require the ability to read. Wouldn't this facilitate the
> need for a basic educational program?"
could read... which is nonsense. Maybe it would help him understand
unschooling better if you could encourage him to take a step back and
look at what people learn and ways of learning more broadly. If he
can really see the learning and discovery in what kids do before they
are taught to read, he might be able to understand unschooling better.
I do think that reading is amazingly useful as well as being fun, but
I don't think that my kids must be reading in order to have any other
learning happen.
Margaret
Schuyler
The process of uncovering what the student really wants to study is exploration. I don't rest on my laurels waiting for Simon and Linnaea to approach me with what they want from the world, I offer stuff forward. I strew ideas, people, places, things. Our lives are filled with things I think will amuse. Sometimes they work, sometimes I get it so right that it fills them up for ages. Sometimes not so good. But that's just as much information as the successes are, even if less value for money.
Reading is a tool, it isn't a prerequisite. Curiousity is a prerequisite. I can squash their curiousity by pushing things upon them that they aren't interested in. If, as Simon has said, they want to be marine biologists, I can talk about all the hurdles that I think they'll have to jump to make that happen. I can get a bunch of texts on marine biology, look into the pre-reqs of comparitive anatomy, make a day at the beach a study in shells and dead crab dissection. Or I can strew magazines and episodes on Discovery channel. I can get an aquarium and help them set it up with fish to watch and maybe breed. I can help keep them curious and interested, and allow that interest to wane without any dissapointment on my part that they won't be a marine biologist one day. They were the day we got an aquarium (we don't have one, that's supposition and hopefulness on my part). They were the day we snuggled up watching sharks kill seals on Animal Channel. They were
when we found razor shells on the beach.
Life is huge and knowledge is almost equally vast. How we experience marine biology can be with our shoes off, paddling about in the water, watching the jellyfish in the tide pool, trying to figure out how they move and sense, or it can be from books and lectures, or in so many other ways.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Brad <bhmjones@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, 26 January, 2009 12:42:43 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Need expert help here.
Hi all.
I'm currently in a discussion with this guy about unschooling and do
not want to give erroneous information. He has asked a couple
questions that I don't want to answer my usual dry way of answering so
I'm wondering if you guys would tell me how you would answer him so I
can attempt to formulate a decent answer. Here is his question:
/begin paste
"If I'm understanding this correctly, "unschooling" is about
encouraging and motivating a student/child to learn about what really
interests him or her rather than forcing upon the student/child the
exact same curriculum as everyone else. The idea behind this is that
this will produce students who are happier and much more motivated to
be part of the educational process, which will in turn produce more
productive doctors, engineers, chemists, etc. etc.
If I have all that correct, then I would have to follow-up with:
What's the process for uncovering what the student really wants to
learn about? Wouldn't we need to expose the student to multiple areas
of study or could we use something like a series of aptitude tests?
How would we institute "unschooling? " Would it be through a
combination of parental responsibility and public schooling?
Wouldn't there have to be a minimum set skills that all students would
need to learn? For example, I can't think of any area of study that
does not require the ability to read. Wouldn't this facilitate the
need for a basic educational program?"
/end paste
Brad
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Reading is a tool, it isn't a prerequisite. Curiousity is a prerequisite. I can squash their curiousity by pushing things upon them that they aren't interested in. If, as Simon has said, they want to be marine biologists, I can talk about all the hurdles that I think they'll have to jump to make that happen. I can get a bunch of texts on marine biology, look into the pre-reqs of comparitive anatomy, make a day at the beach a study in shells and dead crab dissection. Or I can strew magazines and episodes on Discovery channel. I can get an aquarium and help them set it up with fish to watch and maybe breed. I can help keep them curious and interested, and allow that interest to wane without any dissapointment on my part that they won't be a marine biologist one day. They were the day we got an aquarium (we don't have one, that's supposition and hopefulness on my part). They were the day we snuggled up watching sharks kill seals on Animal Channel. They were
when we found razor shells on the beach.
Life is huge and knowledge is almost equally vast. How we experience marine biology can be with our shoes off, paddling about in the water, watching the jellyfish in the tide pool, trying to figure out how they move and sense, or it can be from books and lectures, or in so many other ways.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Brad <bhmjones@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, 26 January, 2009 12:42:43 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Need expert help here.
Hi all.
I'm currently in a discussion with this guy about unschooling and do
not want to give erroneous information. He has asked a couple
questions that I don't want to answer my usual dry way of answering so
I'm wondering if you guys would tell me how you would answer him so I
can attempt to formulate a decent answer. Here is his question:
/begin paste
"If I'm understanding this correctly, "unschooling" is about
encouraging and motivating a student/child to learn about what really
interests him or her rather than forcing upon the student/child the
exact same curriculum as everyone else. The idea behind this is that
this will produce students who are happier and much more motivated to
be part of the educational process, which will in turn produce more
productive doctors, engineers, chemists, etc. etc.
If I have all that correct, then I would have to follow-up with:
What's the process for uncovering what the student really wants to
learn about? Wouldn't we need to expose the student to multiple areas
of study or could we use something like a series of aptitude tests?
How would we institute "unschooling? " Would it be through a
combination of parental responsibility and public schooling?
Wouldn't there have to be a minimum set skills that all students would
need to learn? For example, I can't think of any area of study that
does not require the ability to read. Wouldn't this facilitate the
need for a basic educational program?"
/end paste
Brad
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn L. Coburn
This guy is still talking about Education, not learning and not living a
full life. Maybe if he stopped thinking of people as "students".
He is seeing learning as in service to education. I see learning as an
automatic and unavoidable function of the human brain.
He is seeing learning as the first step towards doing, rather than a totally
intertwined process of the doing.
He is seeing education as end product oriented. I think of unschooling as
truly vocational because Jayn's life is all about *doing* her stuff, right
now and today. Even what might look like learning for it's own sake - Jayn
spending time on the internet looking at vintage Barbie dolls for example -
it isn't about wanting to learn or know about Barbies for her. That
knowledge and learning is a side effect of her *appreciating* the beauty of
the things.
He thinks people need to be motivated to learn. My daughter doesn't, but if
someone wanted her to demonstrate her learning in a schooly way, that might
take some tough motivating.
I never worry about Jayn's learning, because it is automatic. I don't expect
her to be a happy end product. I try to find ways to allow her joy to flower
today.
I never consider discovering Jayn's interests as an unsolved mystery because
her interests are right out there in her daily conversation and life and
activities. Plus as Schuyler mentioned we do a lot of strewing. Perhaps if
Jayn were trapped in a school room, even a kitchen table school room, her
interests would not be visible and obvious, but drowned in a sea of
irrelevant school static, and would need ferretting out.
Does this person have any kids? If he is genuinely interested in
unschooling, why not save yourself a world of fuss and just direct him to
Sandra's site?
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
full life. Maybe if he stopped thinking of people as "students".
He is seeing learning as in service to education. I see learning as an
automatic and unavoidable function of the human brain.
He is seeing learning as the first step towards doing, rather than a totally
intertwined process of the doing.
He is seeing education as end product oriented. I think of unschooling as
truly vocational because Jayn's life is all about *doing* her stuff, right
now and today. Even what might look like learning for it's own sake - Jayn
spending time on the internet looking at vintage Barbie dolls for example -
it isn't about wanting to learn or know about Barbies for her. That
knowledge and learning is a side effect of her *appreciating* the beauty of
the things.
He thinks people need to be motivated to learn. My daughter doesn't, but if
someone wanted her to demonstrate her learning in a schooly way, that might
take some tough motivating.
I never worry about Jayn's learning, because it is automatic. I don't expect
her to be a happy end product. I try to find ways to allow her joy to flower
today.
I never consider discovering Jayn's interests as an unsolved mystery because
her interests are right out there in her daily conversation and life and
activities. Plus as Schuyler mentioned we do a lot of strewing. Perhaps if
Jayn were trapped in a school room, even a kitchen table school room, her
interests would not be visible and obvious, but drowned in a sea of
irrelevant school static, and would need ferretting out.
Does this person have any kids? If he is genuinely interested in
unschooling, why not save yourself a world of fuss and just direct him to
Sandra's site?
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
Sandra Dodd
-=-Does this person have any kids? If he is genuinely interested in
unschooling, why not save yourself a world of fuss and just direct
him to
Sandra's site?-=-
Robyn wrote good things. Your friend is looking at the world through
school-colored glasses. If you do send him to my site, or if you
want to read some thing to use to help him, maybe these:
http://sandradodd.com/http://sandradodd.com/seeingit
http://sandradodd.com/pam/ilive
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/definition
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
unschooling, why not save yourself a world of fuss and just direct
him to
Sandra's site?-=-
Robyn wrote good things. Your friend is looking at the world through
school-colored glasses. If you do send him to my site, or if you
want to read some thing to use to help him, maybe these:
http://sandradodd.com/http://sandradodd.com/seeingit
http://sandradodd.com/pam/ilive
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/definition
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
One way to look at things differently is to imagine the world existing and
functioning outside the existence of books. Once upon a time, that was the
case. And it's doubtful that it was a sorry sad place to inhabit due to the
lack of books, though some may believe that it was.
Those who are readers may feel that not only do books exist but also are a
marvel in themselves and can create worlds of imagination to immerse in as
well as describe the world we live in and the things in it, how they look,
how they work and so on. But books, and other print materials, don't make
the world to exist or operate. They are a part of the world, and can show
us all manner of things about the world.
Primarily though, the world itself helps us learn about it, many times in
important very different ways than learning from books. Imagine a doctor
whose means for learning about surgery were *only* from books *without*
experiencing surgery in the real world. I prefer the doctor who has learned
from many avenues of experience, including books, and I'm thinking that a
great many of us do too.
Instituting "unschooling" would be superfluous since it's already the
natural way for anybody to learn, for instance when babies learn to talk and
walk. It has been instituted already by nature. It would not be through
parental responsibility or public schooling, both of which exist already
also, and for other purposes. True, parents can enrich a child's
educational possibilities through choosing options that widen the range of
learning opportunities or ruin a child's educational possibilities by
limiting such options. In unschooling, parents are the facilitators of
learning.
It would seem that someone is ruining a child's education by not enforcing
early learning of how to read but see the above. Children are learning
already by observing the way the world works. Reading adds to learning in
many ways. For children, those ways are not their ways but someone else's
ways. That's an automatic problem with reading. Someone else has the
conclusion and once the child reads it, that conclusion is, at least in the
early days of reading, supposed to then belong to the child.
Contrast reading to simple observation, which enables children to learn in
their own ways and to create knowledge for themselves through experience.
For instance, Karl noticed something after licking the lid of a yogurt
containers and said "All things become new ... (big pause) ... when you
clean 'em." I didn't seize the learning moment and say, as I could have,
that yes we recycle things by cleaning them and getting them ready for
reuse. To me, the important thing about that learning moment is that Karl
knows he can create knowledge from experience just like he knows how to
breathe, and he does it without thinking about how to learn. Learning just
happens. The kid who goes to school and is sat in front of the printed word
day after day as a matter of course may not ever come to know learning like
that, even though it "just happens" for that kid too. A great many kids
don't have the same confidence as Karl has in his own ability to learn and
to think what he thinks. Many children who are made to read first before
they can tackle real learning are convinced instead that they must be shown
how and what to learn.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
functioning outside the existence of books. Once upon a time, that was the
case. And it's doubtful that it was a sorry sad place to inhabit due to the
lack of books, though some may believe that it was.
Those who are readers may feel that not only do books exist but also are a
marvel in themselves and can create worlds of imagination to immerse in as
well as describe the world we live in and the things in it, how they look,
how they work and so on. But books, and other print materials, don't make
the world to exist or operate. They are a part of the world, and can show
us all manner of things about the world.
Primarily though, the world itself helps us learn about it, many times in
important very different ways than learning from books. Imagine a doctor
whose means for learning about surgery were *only* from books *without*
experiencing surgery in the real world. I prefer the doctor who has learned
from many avenues of experience, including books, and I'm thinking that a
great many of us do too.
>>>> How would we institute "unschooling? " Would it be through acombination of parental responsibility and public schooling? <<<<
Instituting "unschooling" would be superfluous since it's already the
natural way for anybody to learn, for instance when babies learn to talk and
walk. It has been instituted already by nature. It would not be through
parental responsibility or public schooling, both of which exist already
also, and for other purposes. True, parents can enrich a child's
educational possibilities through choosing options that widen the range of
learning opportunities or ruin a child's educational possibilities by
limiting such options. In unschooling, parents are the facilitators of
learning.
It would seem that someone is ruining a child's education by not enforcing
early learning of how to read but see the above. Children are learning
already by observing the way the world works. Reading adds to learning in
many ways. For children, those ways are not their ways but someone else's
ways. That's an automatic problem with reading. Someone else has the
conclusion and once the child reads it, that conclusion is, at least in the
early days of reading, supposed to then belong to the child.
Contrast reading to simple observation, which enables children to learn in
their own ways and to create knowledge for themselves through experience.
For instance, Karl noticed something after licking the lid of a yogurt
containers and said "All things become new ... (big pause) ... when you
clean 'em." I didn't seize the learning moment and say, as I could have,
that yes we recycle things by cleaning them and getting them ready for
reuse. To me, the important thing about that learning moment is that Karl
knows he can create knowledge from experience just like he knows how to
breathe, and he does it without thinking about how to learn. Learning just
happens. The kid who goes to school and is sat in front of the printed word
day after day as a matter of course may not ever come to know learning like
that, even though it "just happens" for that kid too. A great many kids
don't have the same confidence as Karl has in his own ability to learn and
to think what he thinks. Many children who are made to read first before
they can tackle real learning are convinced instead that they must be shown
how and what to learn.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kim
> http://sandradodd.com/http://sandradodd.com/seeingitI couldn't get this link to work.
>
Vicki Dennis
Maybe Sandra meant this one?
http://sandradodd.com/seeingitcomments
vicki
P.S.: I was also grateful for Robyn's comments. When I read Brad's
questions/musings I just shut down feeling overwhelmed with "where to start"
and "maybe can't get to here from there?".
http://sandradodd.com/seeingitcomments
vicki
P.S.: I was also grateful for Robyn's comments. When I read Brad's
questions/musings I just shut down feeling overwhelmed with "where to start"
and "maybe can't get to here from there?".
On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 3:47 PM, Kim <kimjimstudz@...> wrote:
> > http://sandradodd.com/http://sandradodd.com/seeingit
> >
>
> I couldn't get this link to work.
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Brad
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
discussing unschooling with an entire group of people and they all got
the link. He's one of two that is asking more questions. It seems to
me that he only skimmed your site and slightly misinterpreted what he
read. I'm attempting to get him back on the straight and narrow. <grin>
Brad
>Yes, actually I directed him to your site first. Actually I'm
> -=-Does this person have any kids? If he is genuinely interested in
> unschooling, why not save yourself a world of fuss and just direct
> him to
> Sandra's site?-=-
>
>
>
> Robyn wrote good things. Your friend is looking at the world through
> school-colored glasses. If you do send him to my site, or if you
> want to read some thing to use to help him, maybe these:
>
> http://sandradodd.com/http://sandradodd.com/seeingit
>
> http://sandradodd.com/pam/ilive
>
>
>
> http://sandradodd.com/unschool/definition
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
discussing unschooling with an entire group of people and they all got
the link. He's one of two that is asking more questions. It seems to
me that he only skimmed your site and slightly misinterpreted what he
read. I'm attempting to get him back on the straight and narrow. <grin>
Brad
Sandra Dodd
http://sandradodd.com/seeingit
The other link glitched. Sorry.
The one Vicki brought would get there indirectly.
Sandra
The other link glitched. Sorry.
The one Vicki brought would get there indirectly.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
On Jan 26, 2009, at 5:53 PM, Brad wrote:
Maybe tell him if he doesn't want to actually READ the stuff, it's a
waste of your time to spoonfeed him, and "speaking of spoonfeeding..."
that's what unschooling gets to avoid!
Maybe tell him he's living and thinking as though school is central to
life itself, and you know it's hard for people not to do that but
unschoolers work at doing that all the time and have more experience
than anyone else, probably.
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
That might help him get the idea.
If you send him to my site in general, he can just look for things to
criticize. Send him to the explanations of the things he doesn't know
what to ask, maybe.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> He's one of two that is asking more questions. It seems to===============
> me that he only skimmed your site and slightly misinterpreted what he
> read. I'm attempting to get him back on the straight and narrow.
> <grin>
Maybe tell him if he doesn't want to actually READ the stuff, it's a
waste of your time to spoonfeed him, and "speaking of spoonfeeding..."
that's what unschooling gets to avoid!
Maybe tell him he's living and thinking as though school is central to
life itself, and you know it's hard for people not to do that but
unschoolers work at doing that all the time and have more experience
than anyone else, probably.
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
That might help him get the idea.
If you send him to my site in general, he can just look for things to
criticize. Send him to the explanations of the things he doesn't know
what to ask, maybe.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
> http://sandradodd.com/http://sandradodd.com/seeingitI couldn't get this link to work.
>
Anytime a link looks like that, chop off the first half of it. from
the second http on it will work. I don't kmow what happened. sorry.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<<> P.S.: I was also grateful for Robyn's comments. When I read Brad's
negative emotional spiral. It can become a habit to constantly focus on
problems.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
> questions/musings I just shut down feeling overwhelmed with "where toPrecisely the main reason I avoid school conversations - I end up in a
> start"
> and "maybe can't get to here from there?">>>>
negative emotional spiral. It can become a habit to constantly focus on
problems.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
John and Amanda Slater
--- On Mon, 1/26/09, k <katherand@...> wrote:
It would seem that someone is ruining a child's education by not enforcing
early learning of how to read but see the above. Children are learning
already by observing the way the world works. Reading adds to learning in
many ways.
****It is interesting that this has come up just now. Yesterday we went to the TN aquarium and Eli wanted to learn more about the Loch Ness Monster. Well, of course my first choice would be to go to Scotland to sit next to the loch for a week, but my second choice was a movie. Eli's watching comprehension is so much higher than his listening comprehension. I may also look for a few books, but I expect the documentary I found from the History channel will be much more useful for him.
AmandaEli 7, Samuel 6
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Brad
How would you guys respond to this. It's a college professor.
/begin paste
I like Bertrand Russell on this point: education, he said, required
opportunity, inclination, and leisure. In the USA, we've got a lot
of #1, little of #2, and we deny the validity of #3.
There are reliable studies that compare the results of forced
schooling and less-forced?
Serendipitously, yes. Japan's public schools are highly regimented.
The method of lecture-recitation, which generally has been discarded
and derided in the USA, is Japan's norm. Teachers in Japan are given
only four hours in-class daily so that they may devote more time to
preparation and grading. Japanese students have longer school days
and school years, and parents often supplement the public education
by enrolling their children in evening and weekend tutoring sessions.
What's the result? The Japanese out-score the US graduates on all
reliable tests of language, math, and social sciences. It's widely
known that Japanese factory workers can do algebra while their US
counterparts can't. And so forth.
One of the few positives to emerge from the charter-school scam in
the USA is KIPP-style education. Basically, it's "back to the 50s";
implement longer school days and school years, and regiment the young
children; require them to sit quietly in their desks and remain
silent unless called upon. The KIPP-style charter schools in urban
districts have succeeded in taking students who performed at the
bottom of most measures and pulling them up to above-average.
It seems that for most young children, a Japan or KIPP-style
environment is essential for learning. Does it necessarily squelch
curiosity or some other prized capacities? Doesn't have to: I'd
guess that the Japanese are overdoing it, and that greater success
would come from a balance of regimented class time and free time with
loose supervision/ consultation.
But a certain level of young children are the sort of self-motivated
learners that can benefit from a less-structured, unschooling sort of
environment- -and we ought to identify them and serve them. And the
third cohort of students will be those who can't learn in either of
those environments because they are disabled in some way; that's what
special education is for.
And one other thing--certainly education gets less structured as the
student gets older and more knowledgeable; adult education gets to be
entirely unschooling, after all, the brain by then has allegedly
matured. And as a corrolary, I'd insist that if all things are
equal, the very best teachers ought to be at the earliest grade
levels where they can lay the foundation for future learning. By the
time one reaches the PhD level, the faculty can be a bunch of semi-
buffoons in the classroom and the student will still get an education.
/end paste
Thanks for all the responses so far.
Brad
/begin paste
I like Bertrand Russell on this point: education, he said, required
opportunity, inclination, and leisure. In the USA, we've got a lot
of #1, little of #2, and we deny the validity of #3.
There are reliable studies that compare the results of forced
schooling and less-forced?
Serendipitously, yes. Japan's public schools are highly regimented.
The method of lecture-recitation, which generally has been discarded
and derided in the USA, is Japan's norm. Teachers in Japan are given
only four hours in-class daily so that they may devote more time to
preparation and grading. Japanese students have longer school days
and school years, and parents often supplement the public education
by enrolling their children in evening and weekend tutoring sessions.
What's the result? The Japanese out-score the US graduates on all
reliable tests of language, math, and social sciences. It's widely
known that Japanese factory workers can do algebra while their US
counterparts can't. And so forth.
One of the few positives to emerge from the charter-school scam in
the USA is KIPP-style education. Basically, it's "back to the 50s";
implement longer school days and school years, and regiment the young
children; require them to sit quietly in their desks and remain
silent unless called upon. The KIPP-style charter schools in urban
districts have succeeded in taking students who performed at the
bottom of most measures and pulling them up to above-average.
It seems that for most young children, a Japan or KIPP-style
environment is essential for learning. Does it necessarily squelch
curiosity or some other prized capacities? Doesn't have to: I'd
guess that the Japanese are overdoing it, and that greater success
would come from a balance of regimented class time and free time with
loose supervision/ consultation.
But a certain level of young children are the sort of self-motivated
learners that can benefit from a less-structured, unschooling sort of
environment- -and we ought to identify them and serve them. And the
third cohort of students will be those who can't learn in either of
those environments because they are disabled in some way; that's what
special education is for.
And one other thing--certainly education gets less structured as the
student gets older and more knowledgeable; adult education gets to be
entirely unschooling, after all, the brain by then has allegedly
matured. And as a corrolary, I'd insist that if all things are
equal, the very best teachers ought to be at the earliest grade
levels where they can lay the foundation for future learning. By the
time one reaches the PhD level, the faculty can be a bunch of semi-
buffoons in the classroom and the student will still get an education.
/end paste
Thanks for all the responses so far.
Brad
carelia
On Jan 28, 2009, at 2:40 PM, Brad wrote:
school bullying, and young people committing suicide, which has been
at least partially linked to their overly regimented and competitive
school system (and lack of decent jobs once they do leave school -
like those highly-educated factory workers)
http://journalism.berkeley.edu/projects/nagasaki/stories/refusers.html
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/ed20070615a2.html
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/FG28Dh01.html (the youth stats are
about half-way down the page)
http://learninfreedom.org/suicide.html
**********
carelia ~ C. Norton
carelia@...
http://PlantImpossibleGardens.blogspot.com/
People take different roads seeking fulfillment and happiness. Just
because they're not on your road doesn't mean they've gotten lost. -
H. Jackson Browne
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> What's the result? The Japanese out-score the US graduates on allJapan also has an extraordinarily high number of "school refusers",
> reliable tests of language, math, and social sciences. It's widely
> known that Japanese factory workers can do algebra while their US
> counterparts can't. And so forth.
school bullying, and young people committing suicide, which has been
at least partially linked to their overly regimented and competitive
school system (and lack of decent jobs once they do leave school -
like those highly-educated factory workers)
http://journalism.berkeley.edu/projects/nagasaki/stories/refusers.html
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/ed20070615a2.html
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/FG28Dh01.html (the youth stats are
about half-way down the page)
http://learninfreedom.org/suicide.html
**********
carelia ~ C. Norton
carelia@...
http://PlantImpossibleGardens.blogspot.com/
People take different roads seeking fulfillment and happiness. Just
because they're not on your road doesn't mean they've gotten lost. -
H. Jackson Browne
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Laura Beaudin
The main difference between the KIPP curriculum and so-called
KIPP-style learning is that KIPP removes a lot of the pressures of
memorizing by using mnemonics. It comes down to rote-learning and
does this really serve a child later in life? I'd much rather have my
children using good research methods than to remember how many
Chinese dynasties there are. If you know how to look up information,
you'll never be without answers.
As for the last paragraph, I wholeheartedly agree with it. It's
always the "less educated" that get appointed in the lower grade..as
though children at that age don't deserve the best.
Laura
At 03:40 PM 28/01/2009, you wrote:
Should you give your children an allowance?
http://www.practical-homeschooling.org
The Great Blog Experiment!!! http://laurabeaudin.com
Works in Progress: http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/Laura.Beaudin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
KIPP-style learning is that KIPP removes a lot of the pressures of
memorizing by using mnemonics. It comes down to rote-learning and
does this really serve a child later in life? I'd much rather have my
children using good research methods than to remember how many
Chinese dynasties there are. If you know how to look up information,
you'll never be without answers.
As for the last paragraph, I wholeheartedly agree with it. It's
always the "less educated" that get appointed in the lower grade..as
though children at that age don't deserve the best.
Laura
At 03:40 PM 28/01/2009, you wrote:
>How would you guys respond to this. It's a college professor.Don't let school interfere with your education!" --Mark Twain
>
>/begin paste
>
>I like Bertrand Russell on this point: education, he said, required
>opportunity, inclination, and leisure. In the USA, we've got a lot
>of #1, little of #2, and we deny the validity of #3.
>
>There are reliable studies that compare the results of forced
>schooling and less-forced?
>
>Serendipitously, yes. Japan's public schools are highly regimented.
>The method of lecture-recitation, which generally has been discarded
>and derided in the USA, is Japan's norm. Teachers in Japan are given
>only four hours in-class daily so that they may devote more time to
>preparation and grading. Japanese students have longer school days
>and school years, and parents often supplement the public education
>by enrolling their children in evening and weekend tutoring sessions.
>
>What's the result? The Japanese out-score the US graduates on all
>reliable tests of language, math, and social sciences. It's widely
>known that Japanese factory workers can do algebra while their US
>counterparts can't. And so forth.
>
>One of the few positives to emerge from the charter-school scam in
>the USA is KIPP-style education. Basically, it's "back to the 50s";
>implement longer school days and school years, and regiment the young
>children; require them to sit quietly in their desks and remain
>silent unless called upon. The KIPP-style charter schools in urban
>districts have succeeded in taking students who performed at the
>bottom of most measures and pulling them up to above-average.
>
>It seems that for most young children, a Japan or KIPP-style
>environment is essential for learning. Does it necessarily squelch
>curiosity or some other prized capacities? Doesn't have to: I'd
>guess that the Japanese are overdoing it, and that greater success
>would come from a balance of regimented class time and free time with
>loose supervision/ consultation.
>
>But a certain level of young children are the sort of self-motivated
>learners that can benefit from a less-structured, unschooling sort of
>environment- -and we ought to identify them and serve them. And the
>third cohort of students will be those who can't learn in either of
>those environments because they are disabled in some way; that's what
>special education is for.
>
>And one other thing--certainly education gets less structured as the
>student gets older and more knowledgeable; adult education gets to be
>entirely unschooling, after all, the brain by then has allegedly
>matured. And as a corrolary, I'd insist that if all things are
>equal, the very best teachers ought to be at the earliest grade
>levels where they can lay the foundation for future learning. By the
>time one reaches the PhD level, the faculty can be a bunch of semi-
>buffoons in the classroom and the student will still get an education.
>
>/end paste
>
>Thanks for all the responses so far.
>
>Brad
>
>
Should you give your children an allowance?
http://www.practical-homeschooling.org
The Great Blog Experiment!!! http://laurabeaudin.com
Works in Progress: http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/Laura.Beaudin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
>>>> By the time one reaches the PhD level, the faculty can be a bunch ofsemi-
buffoons in the classroom and the student will still get an education. <<<<
Why is that? That seems to say that people can do their own learning once
they reach a certain age but not when they're young. And yet brain capacity
to absorb new information is traditionally thought to be much less once a
person gets past the really young ages.
The question of origin might look a lot like this "which comes first... the
egg or the chicken?" Does the knowledge come before the learner or the
other way around? Trick question the second time around: they're existence
depends on one another and both appear at the same time. The synchronistic
nature of learning and the learner is a key point of unschooling.
It's worth looking more closely at studies to consider why and how they come
up with the results they do. Some studies are so much more biased than
others, and with reason: most hypotheses are biased to some degree to begin
with or they're based on a premise that is biased.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
On Jan 28, 2009, at 3:40 PM, Brad wrote:
I'd ask him about mental health, divorce rates and whether he's read
much about the disease in Japan that's called "school refusal," for
which they lock kids up in mental hospitals.
Then I'd leave it alone and not deal with him anymore.
That's me.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> How would you guys respond to this. It's a college professor.====================
I'd ask him about mental health, divorce rates and whether he's read
much about the disease in Japan that's called "school refusal," for
which they lock kids up in mental hospitals.
Then I'd leave it alone and not deal with him anymore.
That's me.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
On Jan 28, 2009, at 6:35 PM, k wrote:
Yes, and that guy's premise seemed to be that the goal of life is high
test scores.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Some studies are so much more biased than======
> others, and with reason: most hypotheses are biased to some degree
> to begin
> with or they're based on a premise that is biased.
Yes, and that guy's premise seemed to be that the goal of life is high
test scores.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
>>>> Yes, and that guy's premise seemed to be that the goal of life is hightest scores. <<<<
Yes... test scores aren't much good if you're working in a factory, are
they?
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ward
Over the years I have read quite a lot of the material put out by a British Group called the 21st century Learning Initiative. The are on the web at http://www.21learn.org/ The ideas they promulgate came to mind when I read the quote "And one other thing--certainly education gets less structured as the
student gets older and more knowledgeable; adult education gets to be
entirely unschooling, after all, the brain by then has allegedly
matured. And as a corrolary, I'd insist that if all things are
equal, the very best teachers ought to be at the earliest grade
levels where they can lay the foundation for future learning. By the
time one reaches the PhD level, the faculty can be a bunch of semi-
buffoons in the classroom and the student will still get an education." as I recalled something I read from them many years ago which suggested the ratios in education were all wrong and that one on one was needed for young children (at home with a parent is my ideal) but that as learners matured they needed less outside input.
I just clicked on their latest publication
Overschooled but Undereducated: Society's Failure to Understand Adolescence by
John Abbott with Heather MacTaggart : Pre-production edition June 2008 (presently in draft) and came across this quote:
"By misunderstanding teenagers' instinctive need to do things for themselves, isn't society in danger of creating a system of schooling that so goes against the natural grain of the adolescent brain that formal education ends up trivialising the very young people it claims to be supporting?"
Is this not an argument in favour of unschooling and respecting the learners independence?
Julie Ward
New Zealand
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
student gets older and more knowledgeable; adult education gets to be
entirely unschooling, after all, the brain by then has allegedly
matured. And as a corrolary, I'd insist that if all things are
equal, the very best teachers ought to be at the earliest grade
levels where they can lay the foundation for future learning. By the
time one reaches the PhD level, the faculty can be a bunch of semi-
buffoons in the classroom and the student will still get an education." as I recalled something I read from them many years ago which suggested the ratios in education were all wrong and that one on one was needed for young children (at home with a parent is my ideal) but that as learners matured they needed less outside input.
I just clicked on their latest publication
Overschooled but Undereducated: Society's Failure to Understand Adolescence by
John Abbott with Heather MacTaggart : Pre-production edition June 2008 (presently in draft) and came across this quote:
"By misunderstanding teenagers' instinctive need to do things for themselves, isn't society in danger of creating a system of schooling that so goes against the natural grain of the adolescent brain that formal education ends up trivialising the very young people it claims to be supporting?"
Is this not an argument in favour of unschooling and respecting the learners independence?
Julie Ward
New Zealand
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 28, 2009, at 8:35 PM, k wrote:
all the people who don't want to be there learning in that way are
gone. The ones left are the ones who are passionate about what
they're doing.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>>> By the time one reaches the PhD level, the faculty can be aI think what it means is that by the time the PhD level is reached,
> bunch of
> semi-buffoons in the classroom and the student will still get an
> education. <<<<
>
> Why is that? That seems to say that people can do their own
> learning once
> they reach a certain age but not when they're young.
all the people who don't want to be there learning in that way are
gone. The ones left are the ones who are passionate about what
they're doing.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Brad
You guys think pretty much the same way as I do about this stuff.
Thanks for all the input.
Brad
Thanks for all the input.
Brad
Schuyler
When we lived in Kyoto we were near a school. Every morning you'd see kids in little white uniforms, with short trousers, and baseball caps walking to the school. It was essential that they weren't alone. A child alone was a child who was targeted. I stepped in once when a kid at a park we used to go to was harrassing a younger boy for his Pokemon cards. The bigger was pushing him and taking the cards out of his bike basket. David went to high school in Tokyo. He went to an international school there. Many of the other students were Japanese but couldn't get by in the Japanese schools because of bullying, often because they were second generation Korean of some other non-Japanese descent. Difference is really discouraged in Japan.
Whatever Japan advertises about the success of it's school system, there is a lot of damage being done within those walls. David organised a conference while he was working in Japan, it was on what we can find out about mating patterns in prehistoric populations. One of the people he invited to speak is a professor at St. Andrews, he's the head of the Perception Lab there, oh, you can see his picture at : http://psy.st-andrews.ac.uk/people/lect/dp.shtml, which is relevant. He has multi-coloured hair. He told me that he used to just dye it one colour but he'd run through all the colours so he was moving through 2 colours to see how long he could go without duplication. He figured he'd be on three at some point in the nearish future. I don't know if he's at 3 yet. Anyhow, his appearance really pissed off the Japanese at the conference. They wouldn't listen to him. He couldn't possibly have anything valuable to offer if he had such a radically different
appearance. David walked with him in downtown Kyoto one night and he turned heads everywhere he went. Difference is not something to aspire to, or to even just be. If you are different in any remarkable way life is not going to be easy for you in Japan.
One last point about Japan. We lived in these lovely apartments on the campus of the Nichibunken (http://www.nichibun.ac.jp/info/facility/house_e.html) where all the foreign faculty were housed. I can remember taking a cab with one of our neighbors and listening to him criticize the intractibility of the Japanese. One of his examples, which has stayed with me, was that 99% of people accused of a crime are convicted of that crime in Japan. A quick search with google shows that in Toronto 76% of those accused of homicide were convicted of their crimes.
Schuyler
-------------snip----------
Serendipitously, yes. Japan's public schools are highly regimented.
The method of lecture-recitation, which generally has been discarded
and derided in the USA, is Japan's norm. Teachers in Japan are given
only four hours in-class daily so that they may devote more time to
preparation and grading. Japanese students have longer school days
and school years, and parents often supplement the public education
by enrolling their children in evening and weekend tutoring sessions.
What's the result? The Japanese out-score the US graduates on all
reliable tests of language, math, and social sciences. It's widely
known that Japanese factory workers can do algebra while their US
counterparts can't. And so forth.
<snip>
It seems that for most young children, a Japan or KIPP-style
environment is essential for learning. Does it necessarily squelch
curiosity or some other prized capacities? Doesn't have to: I'd
guess that the Japanese are overdoing it, and that greater success
would come from a balance of regimented class time and free time with
loose supervision/ consultation.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Whatever Japan advertises about the success of it's school system, there is a lot of damage being done within those walls. David organised a conference while he was working in Japan, it was on what we can find out about mating patterns in prehistoric populations. One of the people he invited to speak is a professor at St. Andrews, he's the head of the Perception Lab there, oh, you can see his picture at : http://psy.st-andrews.ac.uk/people/lect/dp.shtml, which is relevant. He has multi-coloured hair. He told me that he used to just dye it one colour but he'd run through all the colours so he was moving through 2 colours to see how long he could go without duplication. He figured he'd be on three at some point in the nearish future. I don't know if he's at 3 yet. Anyhow, his appearance really pissed off the Japanese at the conference. They wouldn't listen to him. He couldn't possibly have anything valuable to offer if he had such a radically different
appearance. David walked with him in downtown Kyoto one night and he turned heads everywhere he went. Difference is not something to aspire to, or to even just be. If you are different in any remarkable way life is not going to be easy for you in Japan.
One last point about Japan. We lived in these lovely apartments on the campus of the Nichibunken (http://www.nichibun.ac.jp/info/facility/house_e.html) where all the foreign faculty were housed. I can remember taking a cab with one of our neighbors and listening to him criticize the intractibility of the Japanese. One of his examples, which has stayed with me, was that 99% of people accused of a crime are convicted of that crime in Japan. A quick search with google shows that in Toronto 76% of those accused of homicide were convicted of their crimes.
Schuyler
-------------snip----------
Serendipitously, yes. Japan's public schools are highly regimented.
The method of lecture-recitation, which generally has been discarded
and derided in the USA, is Japan's norm. Teachers in Japan are given
only four hours in-class daily so that they may devote more time to
preparation and grading. Japanese students have longer school days
and school years, and parents often supplement the public education
by enrolling their children in evening and weekend tutoring sessions.
What's the result? The Japanese out-score the US graduates on all
reliable tests of language, math, and social sciences. It's widely
known that Japanese factory workers can do algebra while their US
counterparts can't. And so forth.
<snip>
It seems that for most young children, a Japan or KIPP-style
environment is essential for learning. Does it necessarily squelch
curiosity or some other prized capacities? Doesn't have to: I'd
guess that the Japanese are overdoing it, and that greater success
would come from a balance of regimented class time and free time with
loose supervision/ consultation.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<< Difference is really discouraged in Japan. >>>>
Which I suppose means the Harajuku kids are really brave, braver than we can
know.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harajuku
http://www.morbidoutlook.com/fashion/articles/2002_07_gothiclolita.html
http://fashion.3yen.com/2007-02-15/gothic-baby-doll-dresses/
And accounts for the popularity of Manga and Anime characters with whacky
hair and individualist stories - codeified rebellion?
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
Which I suppose means the Harajuku kids are really brave, braver than we can
know.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harajuku
http://www.morbidoutlook.com/fashion/articles/2002_07_gothiclolita.html
http://fashion.3yen.com/2007-02-15/gothic-baby-doll-dresses/
And accounts for the popularity of Manga and Anime characters with whacky
hair and individualist stories - codeified rebellion?
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
Schuyler
We went to Osaka-jo park one Sunday-- the Osaka Harajuku, although David says Harajuku is so much more-- and saw the most fantastic outfits and makeup. My favorite was a man dressed as a blue and white Geisha, he had tourists lining up to take their picture with him. Linnaea was 1 and toddling about and all the teen girls lined up to coo at her and flirt. Within the park was an area where homeless people lived in tents, or tarps staked out. It was so orderly, with laundry hanging and propane cylinders for the stoves.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Robyn L. Coburn <dezigna@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, 29 January, 2009 4:23:46 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Need expert help here.
<<<< Difference is really discouraged in Japan. >>>>
Which I suppose means the Harajuku kids are really brave, braver than we can
know.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harajuku
http://www.morbidoutlook.com/fashion/articles/2002_07_gothiclolita.html
http://fashion.3yen.com/2007-02-15/gothic-baby-doll-dresses/
And accounts for the popularity of Manga and Anime characters with whacky
hair and individualist stories - codeified rebellion?
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Robyn L. Coburn <dezigna@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, 29 January, 2009 4:23:46 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Need expert help here.
<<<< Difference is really discouraged in Japan. >>>>
Which I suppose means the Harajuku kids are really brave, braver than we can
know.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harajuku
http://www.morbidoutlook.com/fashion/articles/2002_07_gothiclolita.html
http://fashion.3yen.com/2007-02-15/gothic-baby-doll-dresses/
And accounts for the popularity of Manga and Anime characters with whacky
hair and individualist stories - codeified rebellion?
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
I mentioned to David that you wrote this and he said "Harajuku isn't the same as it was, the government closed it down." We looked at wikipedia and noticed that they opened the streets up to traffic in the 90s, effectively closing down the area to teenagers displaying their oh-so-fantastic clothes.
You are absolutely right about their bravery. There was a guy we always called tissue Punk, he had a mohawk and he passed out tissues (pocket-tissue packs are a big advertising venue because toilets often don't have toilet paper, so carrying tissues is important) on a main street corner in downtown Kyoto, who was so friendly and so smiley and so completely on the fringe. He thought it was hysterically funny, but worked really hard to look cool, when David took his picture.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Robyn L. Coburn <dezigna@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, 29 January, 2009 4:23:46 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Need expert help here.
<<<< Difference is really discouraged in Japan. >>>>
Which I suppose means the Harajuku kids are really brave, braver than we can
know.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harajuku
http://www.morbidoutlook.com/fashion/articles/2002_07_gothiclolita.html
http://fashion.3yen.com/2007-02-15/gothic-baby-doll-dresses/
And accounts for the popularity of Manga and Anime characters with whacky
hair and individualist stories - codeified rebellion?
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You are absolutely right about their bravery. There was a guy we always called tissue Punk, he had a mohawk and he passed out tissues (pocket-tissue packs are a big advertising venue because toilets often don't have toilet paper, so carrying tissues is important) on a main street corner in downtown Kyoto, who was so friendly and so smiley and so completely on the fringe. He thought it was hysterically funny, but worked really hard to look cool, when David took his picture.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Robyn L. Coburn <dezigna@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, 29 January, 2009 4:23:46 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Need expert help here.
<<<< Difference is really discouraged in Japan. >>>>
Which I suppose means the Harajuku kids are really brave, braver than we can
know.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harajuku
http://www.morbidoutlook.com/fashion/articles/2002_07_gothiclolita.html
http://fashion.3yen.com/2007-02-15/gothic-baby-doll-dresses/
And accounts for the popularity of Manga and Anime characters with whacky
hair and individualist stories - codeified rebellion?
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
> >>>> By the time one reaches the PhD level, the faculty can be aall the people who don't want to be there learning in that way are
> bunch of
> semi-buffoons in the classroom and the student will still get an
> education. <<<<
>
> Why is that? That seems to say that people can do their own
> learning once
> they reach a certain age but not when they're young.
>>>> I think what it means is that by the time the PhD level is reached,
gone. The ones left are the ones who are passionate about what
they're doing. <<<<
Yes. My dad calls it weeding out. :/
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
I think not to long ago I read a blog about some guy going berserk in the
park one Sunday, killing and injuring some folks. Then Sunday park days
became a thing of the past, something to lament.
~Katherine
park one Sunday, killing and injuring some folks. Then Sunday park days
became a thing of the past, something to lament.
~Katherine
On 1/29/09, Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
>
> I mentioned to David that you wrote this and he said "Harajuku isn't the
> same as it was, the government closed it down." We looked at wikipedia and
> noticed that they opened the streets up to traffic in the 90s, effectively
> closing down the area to teenagers displaying their oh-so-fantastic clothes.
>
> You are absolutely right about their bravery. There was a guy we always
> called tissue Punk, he had a mohawk and he passed out tissues (pocket-tissue
> packs are a big advertising venue because toilets often don't have toilet
> paper, so carrying tissues is important) on a main street corner in downtown
> Kyoto, who was so friendly and so smiley and so completely on the fringe. He
> thought it was hysterically funny, but worked really hard to look cool, when
> David took his picture.
>
>
> Schuyler
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Robyn L. Coburn <dezigna@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Thursday, 29 January, 2009 4:23:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Need expert help here.
>
> <<<< Difference is really discouraged in Japan. >>>>
>
> Which I suppose means the Harajuku kids are really brave, braver than we
> can
> know.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harajuku
>
> http://www.morbidoutlook.com/fashion/articles/2002_07_gothiclolita.html
>
> http://fashion.3yen.com/2007-02-15/gothic-baby-doll-dresses/
>
> And accounts for the popularity of Manga and Anime characters with whacky
> hair and individualist stories - codeified rebellion?
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
> www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
> www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
> www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
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