Need some support
tracyliebmann
Hi~ I' feeling very uneasy about the fact that my son is 11 and does
not read yet. I know all the facts about unschooling, have read all the
Sandra & Joyce links about reading over and over again through the
years. Yet, I am still worried. I need some unschooling tribe support,
I'm worrying that I need to "do" something. When ever he brings it up,
we talk about all the options and he still just says he does not want
to. I read to him when ever he asks. He is an avid gamer and online
gamer...I don't even know how he does it as well as he does with out
knowing how to read...I can't imagine memorizing all those things on
World of Warcraft for example, but he does and has for many years. I
know he is smart and have always believed he will just one day be
reading...like all the stories I have read. Yet here I am worried, I
have started to write this e-mail more than once over the last few
months and have stopped myself because I feel as though I shouldn't be
worried...let alone admit it to a large group like this. I respect
Sandras knowledge of unschooling and others who write in, so if you
could give me some practical and personal support I would appreciate it!
Thanks~ Tracy
not read yet. I know all the facts about unschooling, have read all the
Sandra & Joyce links about reading over and over again through the
years. Yet, I am still worried. I need some unschooling tribe support,
I'm worrying that I need to "do" something. When ever he brings it up,
we talk about all the options and he still just says he does not want
to. I read to him when ever he asks. He is an avid gamer and online
gamer...I don't even know how he does it as well as he does with out
knowing how to read...I can't imagine memorizing all those things on
World of Warcraft for example, but he does and has for many years. I
know he is smart and have always believed he will just one day be
reading...like all the stories I have read. Yet here I am worried, I
have started to write this e-mail more than once over the last few
months and have stopped myself because I feel as though I shouldn't be
worried...let alone admit it to a large group like this. I respect
Sandras knowledge of unschooling and others who write in, so if you
could give me some practical and personal support I would appreciate it!
Thanks~ Tracy
Julie Hiniker
Ok I am coming out of hiding. I have only been unschooling a very short time but have been relaxed schooling a very long time. My children range in age from 4 through 28. I have had one read at 12 and one at one week short of thirteen and currently have a 12 yr old not reading. AND NOT interested in it. I also have had several read at 4 and at 5 and at 8..
There is a point when they start to read.. it happens.. Just be there to read for him till then.. I will even offer reading lessons to them.. and graciously accept a no or a maybe later or a reluctant OK.
Each child is different and each child will learn to read. If they are not made to feel bad they will never know it is a problem. I will also reassure you that all of my children-- even the one who was PS till 12 and then learned to read despit it-- eventually came to a point where you couldn't tell which ones read at 4 and which ones read at 13.
HTH
Blessings
Julie
Julie
mom to the Darlin' dozen.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
There is a point when they start to read.. it happens.. Just be there to read for him till then.. I will even offer reading lessons to them.. and graciously accept a no or a maybe later or a reluctant OK.
Each child is different and each child will learn to read. If they are not made to feel bad they will never know it is a problem. I will also reassure you that all of my children-- even the one who was PS till 12 and then learned to read despit it-- eventually came to a point where you couldn't tell which ones read at 4 and which ones read at 13.
HTH
Blessings
Julie
Julie
mom to the Darlin' dozen.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
I know personally a couple of boys (now men) who read later than
Holly did, and have heard/read of others.
He plays games; does he have gaming manuals and magazines? I know
it's standard advice, but having other things related to his main
activities that have large print headlines or captions near
interesting pictures can help.
I taught seventh grade, and there were several of my 125+ each year
who couldn't read, and they were 12 or 13 (if they had failed first
or second grade, as some had). All boys.
-=-When ever he brings it up,
we talk about all the options and he still just says he does not want
to.-=-
To do what? To have reading lessons?
Holly finally asked me to get the book about 100 easy lessons. I
stalled, and she reminded me, and we got a used copy and went through
a couple of lessons, but she didn't like it. It was within a month
or two of when she could read, and it all came quickly when it did.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Holly did, and have heard/read of others.
He plays games; does he have gaming manuals and magazines? I know
it's standard advice, but having other things related to his main
activities that have large print headlines or captions near
interesting pictures can help.
I taught seventh grade, and there were several of my 125+ each year
who couldn't read, and they were 12 or 13 (if they had failed first
or second grade, as some had). All boys.
-=-When ever he brings it up,
we talk about all the options and he still just says he does not want
to.-=-
To do what? To have reading lessons?
Holly finally asked me to get the book about 100 easy lessons. I
stalled, and she reminded me, and we got a used copy and went through
a couple of lessons, but she didn't like it. It was within a month
or two of when she could read, and it all came quickly when it did.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 10, 2009, at 12:39 PM, tracyliebmann wrote:
odd question, but is he really playing WOW without being able to read
"cat"? Or is he choosing not to read outside of WOW? (Is there a
voice option for WOW? Is that what he's using?)
Kat didn't read on her own, as in pick up a novel and read it to
herself, until she was ... I don't even know now. 13?
She could read. She chose not to because it was hard for her. She did
the reading for video games but I read books to her.
She wanted to read easily. And we did take her for some tests but the
conclusion was she couldn't read easily because she didn't read
enough. Kind of a Catch-22.
Eventually, through audio books, she found an adult author she loved
and did finally read those. So they gave her a reason to read more
and reading became easier.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I' feeling very uneasy about the fact that my son is 11 and doesWhat are your clues that he can't read? I know that sounds like an
> not read yet.
odd question, but is he really playing WOW without being able to read
"cat"? Or is he choosing not to read outside of WOW? (Is there a
voice option for WOW? Is that what he's using?)
Kat didn't read on her own, as in pick up a novel and read it to
herself, until she was ... I don't even know now. 13?
She could read. She chose not to because it was hard for her. She did
the reading for video games but I read books to her.
She wanted to read easily. And we did take her for some tests but the
conclusion was she couldn't read easily because she didn't read
enough. Kind of a Catch-22.
Eventually, through audio books, she found an adult author she loved
and did finally read those. So they gave her a reason to read more
and reading became easier.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Eventually, through audio books, she found an adult author she loved
and did finally read those. So they gave her a reason to read more
and reading became easier.-=-
Holly said just the other day that she likes to read books when she's
already seen the movie. She's read Snow Angels a couple of times,
and some Stephen King stuff, What's Eating Gilbert Grape, and I'm not
sure what else. She's not reading summaries of movies (as some kids
do in school for "book reports," but the stories or novels on which
movies were based.
She joked that she had no imagination and wanted their pictures in
her head or something. Her imagination is plenty healthy. I think
she likes to think about what makes a book interesting enough for
someone to make a movie, and what parts and sorts of writing aren't
then written up and filmed.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and did finally read those. So they gave her a reason to read more
and reading became easier.-=-
Holly said just the other day that she likes to read books when she's
already seen the movie. She's read Snow Angels a couple of times,
and some Stephen King stuff, What's Eating Gilbert Grape, and I'm not
sure what else. She's not reading summaries of movies (as some kids
do in school for "book reports," but the stories or novels on which
movies were based.
She joked that she had no imagination and wanted their pictures in
her head or something. Her imagination is plenty healthy. I think
she likes to think about what makes a book interesting enough for
someone to make a movie, and what parts and sorts of writing aren't
then written up and filmed.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 10, 2009, at 1:19 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
when you already have some of the structure and you're filling it in
rather than trying to build everything from scratch.
My husband hates seeing previews to movies and shows. I like them.
And I think I like them because it gives me the beginning of a
structure to hang new information from.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Holly said just the other day that she likes to read books when she'sI was the same way to some extent. It's easier to understand a story
> already seen the movie.
when you already have some of the structure and you're filling it in
rather than trying to build everything from scratch.
My husband hates seeing previews to movies and shows. I like them.
And I think I like them because it gives me the beginning of a
structure to hang new information from.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tracyliebmann
Thanks Sandra,
Yes, we have alot of game guides and he enjoys figuring out things on
his own with pics and such as much as possible. I also read to him
when asked :-)
Usually if he brings up the fact that he can't read and would like to
be able to I give him all the options...continueing on the way we are
going now and reassure him that he will learn to read, I even tell
him about all the other unschoolers who have learned to read at 13 or
14.I let him know that there are diffrent learn to read programs out
there, online and other wise. So, yes that is in the form of reading
lessons and when we first started "homeschooling" we did the 100
lessons book and he did pretty well for awhile but as soon as he got
bored and did'nt want to do it we stopped. That was like 5 years
ago.Do you think even offering "lessons" is bad as an unschooler?<<<I
*really* would like to know your thoughts on this. I hesitate
everytime it starts to roll off my tounge and have only brought that
up maybe 2 or 3 times over the years.
Thanks for your input...I already feel better! ~Tracy
Yes, we have alot of game guides and he enjoys figuring out things on
his own with pics and such as much as possible. I also read to him
when asked :-)
Usually if he brings up the fact that he can't read and would like to
be able to I give him all the options...continueing on the way we are
going now and reassure him that he will learn to read, I even tell
him about all the other unschoolers who have learned to read at 13 or
14.I let him know that there are diffrent learn to read programs out
there, online and other wise. So, yes that is in the form of reading
lessons and when we first started "homeschooling" we did the 100
lessons book and he did pretty well for awhile but as soon as he got
bored and did'nt want to do it we stopped. That was like 5 years
ago.Do you think even offering "lessons" is bad as an unschooler?<<<I
*really* would like to know your thoughts on this. I hesitate
everytime it starts to roll off my tounge and have only brought that
up maybe 2 or 3 times over the years.
Thanks for your input...I already feel better! ~Tracy
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> I know personally a couple of boys (now men) who read later than
> Holly did, and have heard/read of others.
>
> He plays games; does he have gaming manuals and magazines? I
know
> it's standard advice, but having other things related to his main
> activities that have large print headlines or captions near
> interesting pictures can help.
>
> I taught seventh grade, and there were several of my 125+ each
year
> who couldn't read, and they were 12 or 13 (if they had failed
first
> or second grade, as some had). All boys.
>
> -=-When ever he brings it up,
> we talk about all the options and he still just says he does not
want
> to.-=-
>
> To do what? To have reading lessons?
>
>
>
> Holly finally asked me to get the book about 100 easy lessons. I
> stalled, and she reminded me, and we got a used copy and went
through
> a couple of lessons, but she didn't like it. It was within a
month
> or two of when she could read, and it all came quickly when it did.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
tracyliebmann
Reassuring...thanks Julie :-)
--- In [email protected], "Julie Hiniker" <momx12@...>
wrote:
children range in age from 4 through 28. I have had one read at 12
and one at one week short of thirteen and currently have a 12 yr old
not reading. AND NOT interested in it. I also have had several read
at 4 and at 5 and at 8..
to them.. and graciously accept a no or a maybe later or a reluctant
OK.
also reassure you that all of my children-- even the one who was PS
till 12 and then learned to read despit it-- eventually came to a
point where you couldn't tell which ones read at 4 and which ones
read at 13.
--- In [email protected], "Julie Hiniker" <momx12@...>
wrote:
>short time but have been relaxed schooling a very long time. My
> Ok I am coming out of hiding. I have only been unschooling a very
children range in age from 4 through 28. I have had one read at 12
and one at one week short of thirteen and currently have a 12 yr old
not reading. AND NOT interested in it. I also have had several read
at 4 and at 5 and at 8..
> There is a point when they start to read.. it happens.. Just bethere to read for him till then.. I will even offer reading lessons
to them.. and graciously accept a no or a maybe later or a reluctant
OK.
>are not made to feel bad they will never know it is a problem. I will
> Each child is different and each child will learn to read. If they
also reassure you that all of my children-- even the one who was PS
till 12 and then learned to read despit it-- eventually came to a
point where you couldn't tell which ones read at 4 and which ones
read at 13.
> HTH
> Blessings
> Julie
> Julie
> mom to the Darlin' dozen.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 10, 2009, at 1:42 PM, tracyliebmann wrote:
offer :-) (along with the freedom to play and mess around if that's
what my daughter wanted.)
The problem with reading lessons is the belief that lack of knowledge
is the big obstacle between the child and reading. If that were true,
then all kids in school would be reading.
But if he is not developmentally ready to read -- meaning all the
brain areas he needs to put it all together aren't mature yet -- then
he really can't read. He's like a 6 mo old in terms of walking.
Walking lessons won't help. He'll walk when he's developmentally
ready to walk. And he'll read when he's developmentally ready to read.
If you're certain reading lessons will help and they don't, how will
he feel? I think it's likely he'll feel he's dumb or there's
something wrong with him.
And if he ends up reading after reading lessons (because he was on
the verge of reading), then it's possible he'll feel like you should
have used them ages ago and be resentful.
If he's not developmentally ready, reading lessons won't help. If he
is developmentally ready, he's going to read anyway.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Do you think even offering "lessons" is bad as an unschooler?If they were ballet lessons or guitar lessons I wouldn't hesitate to
offer :-) (along with the freedom to play and mess around if that's
what my daughter wanted.)
The problem with reading lessons is the belief that lack of knowledge
is the big obstacle between the child and reading. If that were true,
then all kids in school would be reading.
But if he is not developmentally ready to read -- meaning all the
brain areas he needs to put it all together aren't mature yet -- then
he really can't read. He's like a 6 mo old in terms of walking.
Walking lessons won't help. He'll walk when he's developmentally
ready to walk. And he'll read when he's developmentally ready to read.
If you're certain reading lessons will help and they don't, how will
he feel? I think it's likely he'll feel he's dumb or there's
something wrong with him.
And if he ends up reading after reading lessons (because he was on
the verge of reading), then it's possible he'll feel like you should
have used them ages ago and be resentful.
If he's not developmentally ready, reading lessons won't help. If he
is developmentally ready, he's going to read anyway.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
On Jan 10, 2009, at 11:42 AM, tracyliebmann wrote:
http://sandradodd.com/r/deeper
If they think reading needs lessons, they'll think everything does.
If they learn to read without lessons, the confidence gained is
immense (in the kids and parents too).
What I've done when my kids ask a question about spelling or reading
or grammar, I give the answer and then relate it to one more thing, if
it's convenient. It helps them to generalize it and to understand and
remember it. If someone says "How do you spell 'cough'?" I might say
"C-o-u-g-h-. It's like 'trough.'"
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -=-Do you think even offering "lessons" is bad as an unschooler?-=-Yes, about reading I do think so. The why is here:
http://sandradodd.com/r/deeper
If they think reading needs lessons, they'll think everything does.
If they learn to read without lessons, the confidence gained is
immense (in the kids and parents too).
What I've done when my kids ask a question about spelling or reading
or grammar, I give the answer and then relate it to one more thing, if
it's convenient. It helps them to generalize it and to understand and
remember it. If someone says "How do you spell 'cough'?" I might say
"C-o-u-g-h-. It's like 'trough.'"
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
John and Amanda Slater
--- On Sat, 1/10/09, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
On Jan 10, 2009, at 12:39 PM, tracyliebmann wrote:
> I' feeling very uneasy about the fact that my son is 11 and does
> not read yet.
What are your clues that he can't read? I know that sounds like an
odd question, but is he really playing WOW without being able to read
"cat"? Or is he choosing not to read outside of WOW? (Is there a
voice option for WOW? Is that what he's using?)
**How do you know when a kid can read? Samuel is 6 and definiely reads occasionally, but when I ask him about it he just says "I can only read what I can read." That has to be enough for me. He is not a trained monkey and never preforms on demand.
AmandaEli 7, Samuel 6
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
Simon is 11, moving inexorably (I need to believe) toward 12. He isn't among the literate, yet. It is becoming a part of who he is, but it isn't yet fully integrated. There is nothing I can do to stop or start the process that is already in motion. He is involved in a world with words. He is taking letters and recognizing them in sequences that are moving more often towards a correct interpretation of what they mean to be representing. Actually, that isn't true. I could pressure him. I could make him uncomfortable with words. I could tell him that he is being stubborn or stupid or lazy when it comes to reading. I could give him reading lessons, I could push phonics at him or whole word recognition. But I don't and there isn't a bone in his body that is resisting becoming literate.
He isn't ready to read. Or, rather, he isn't ready to string words into sentences into books. He will be. I am not worried. I have been. I was when he was 4 and I needed him to validate my decision to homeschool. I was when Linnaea, his younger sister, started reading at 6 and he was 9 and I worried that it would hurt his ego, his sense of self, that she could read and that he couldn't and that it would be this story of how dumb he was. I was stunned to watch him come to her with words he didn't know. I was stunned to see how comfortable he was with who he was. I'm 40 moving on toward 41 and I don't know that I have nearly as strong a sense of self.
The fun thing, having an older not-yet-reader, is learning from him. He sees things I miss as I live in my fully literate world. He remembers details that I don't, he plays games with such skill, such ability, such a grasp for the non-reading clues and cues in so many different environments. It is amazing to see through his eyes.
We lived in Japan for a year. A year when I was the illiterate. I speak and read almost no Japanese and I was relatively unhandicapped. Not because English was everywhere, but because it wasn't as hard as I think it ought to be, or thought it ought to be, to get along without being able to read. People helped us. If I lived in Japan today after 8 years of living there, I would be literate. I could pick the bus to get home without having to look at the note in my pocket, I could read the ingredients on a box of crackers, I could buy non-English language books from the bookstore and read them, and get the cultural references, or most of them.
I don't know what age the adults I know were when they learned to read. I don't know if they were older or younger than me, or than Simon. It doesn't come up in my interactions. And I'm not worried.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: tracyliebmann <tracyliebmann@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, 10 January, 2009 5:39:43 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Need some support
Hi~ I' feeling very uneasy about the fact that my son is 11 and does
not read yet. I know all the facts about unschooling, have read all the
Sandra & Joyce links about reading over and over again through the
years. Yet, I am still worried. I need some unschooling tribe support,
I'm worrying that I need to "do" something. When ever he brings it up,
we talk about all the options and he still just says he does not want
to. I read to him when ever he asks. He is an avid gamer and online
gamer...I don't even know how he does it as well as he does with out
knowing how to read...I can't imagine memorizing all those things on
World of Warcraft for example, but he does and has for many years. I
know he is smart and have always believed he will just one day be
reading...like all the stories I have read. Yet here I am worried, I
have started to write this e-mail more than once over the last few
months and have stopped myself because I feel as though I shouldn't be
worried...let alone admit it to a large group like this. I respect
Sandras knowledge of unschooling and others who write in, so if you
could give me some practical and personal support I would appreciate it!
Thanks~ Tracy
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
He isn't ready to read. Or, rather, he isn't ready to string words into sentences into books. He will be. I am not worried. I have been. I was when he was 4 and I needed him to validate my decision to homeschool. I was when Linnaea, his younger sister, started reading at 6 and he was 9 and I worried that it would hurt his ego, his sense of self, that she could read and that he couldn't and that it would be this story of how dumb he was. I was stunned to watch him come to her with words he didn't know. I was stunned to see how comfortable he was with who he was. I'm 40 moving on toward 41 and I don't know that I have nearly as strong a sense of self.
The fun thing, having an older not-yet-reader, is learning from him. He sees things I miss as I live in my fully literate world. He remembers details that I don't, he plays games with such skill, such ability, such a grasp for the non-reading clues and cues in so many different environments. It is amazing to see through his eyes.
We lived in Japan for a year. A year when I was the illiterate. I speak and read almost no Japanese and I was relatively unhandicapped. Not because English was everywhere, but because it wasn't as hard as I think it ought to be, or thought it ought to be, to get along without being able to read. People helped us. If I lived in Japan today after 8 years of living there, I would be literate. I could pick the bus to get home without having to look at the note in my pocket, I could read the ingredients on a box of crackers, I could buy non-English language books from the bookstore and read them, and get the cultural references, or most of them.
I don't know what age the adults I know were when they learned to read. I don't know if they were older or younger than me, or than Simon. It doesn't come up in my interactions. And I'm not worried.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: tracyliebmann <tracyliebmann@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, 10 January, 2009 5:39:43 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Need some support
Hi~ I' feeling very uneasy about the fact that my son is 11 and does
not read yet. I know all the facts about unschooling, have read all the
Sandra & Joyce links about reading over and over again through the
years. Yet, I am still worried. I need some unschooling tribe support,
I'm worrying that I need to "do" something. When ever he brings it up,
we talk about all the options and he still just says he does not want
to. I read to him when ever he asks. He is an avid gamer and online
gamer...I don't even know how he does it as well as he does with out
knowing how to read...I can't imagine memorizing all those things on
World of Warcraft for example, but he does and has for many years. I
know he is smart and have always believed he will just one day be
reading...like all the stories I have read. Yet here I am worried, I
have started to write this e-mail more than once over the last few
months and have stopped myself because I feel as though I shouldn't be
worried...let alone admit it to a large group like this. I respect
Sandras knowledge of unschooling and others who write in, so if you
could give me some practical and personal support I would appreciate it!
Thanks~ Tracy
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
Do you think even offering "lessons" is bad as an unschooler?<<<I
overnight, but it really wasn't. It was years of word collecting. She
had moments of self doubt before she was fluent. Now she's incredibly
glad that she learned this on her own, in her own way. She's a huge
advocate of non-coersive, no lesson, learning to read.
Other kids have asked her how she learned to read without anyone
teaching her, and she says something like, "I just learned it, the same
way I learn everything else." What strikes me about it, is her clear
sense of ownership over it. If I had gotten worried and implemented
some sort of reading lesson program she wouldn't have that wonderful
sense of ownership, that has spilled out into the whole rest of her
life. The whole process was extremely empowering to her!
Whenever kids learn new things they will come to a point of frustration
or some form of hurdle to be gone over. It's the same for all people I
think, since I've experienced this learning new crafts. Once you get
over that hurdle, things start clicking and making sense. During that
struggle though, sometimes the outcome may seem dire. You could
potentially look at your son's current lack of reading as being in the
place of right before or during the hurdle to be gotten over, knowing
that it's temporary and will lead to a sense of accomplishment and
empowerment.
> *really* would like to know your thoughts on this. I hesitateChamille learned to read at the age of 11/12. It was seemingly
> everytime it starts to roll off my tounge and have only brought that
> up maybe 2 or 3 times over the years.
overnight, but it really wasn't. It was years of word collecting. She
had moments of self doubt before she was fluent. Now she's incredibly
glad that she learned this on her own, in her own way. She's a huge
advocate of non-coersive, no lesson, learning to read.
Other kids have asked her how she learned to read without anyone
teaching her, and she says something like, "I just learned it, the same
way I learn everything else." What strikes me about it, is her clear
sense of ownership over it. If I had gotten worried and implemented
some sort of reading lesson program she wouldn't have that wonderful
sense of ownership, that has spilled out into the whole rest of her
life. The whole process was extremely empowering to her!
Whenever kids learn new things they will come to a point of frustration
or some form of hurdle to be gone over. It's the same for all people I
think, since I've experienced this learning new crafts. Once you get
over that hurdle, things start clicking and making sense. During that
struggle though, sometimes the outcome may seem dire. You could
potentially look at your son's current lack of reading as being in the
place of right before or during the hurdle to be gotten over, knowing
that it's temporary and will lead to a sense of accomplishment and
empowerment.
Jenny C
> Holly said just the other day that she likes to read books when she'sChamille loves reading the book and seeing movies based on books! She
> already seen the movie.
loves to analyze them and compare them and pick them apart. It doesn't
really matter which she does first. When she sees a really good movie,
she usually wonders if it was originally a book and looks into it.
She's found that often, the very best movies are the ones that were made
from books, and she finds that really fascinating.
She was able to hold a very analytical intelligent conversation about
the movie Carrie in it's relation to the book, with another adult who
had seen the movie many times, but had never read the book. I was
merely a bystander, as I truly had nothing to add!
tracyliebmann
Wow, I'm so glad I opened up to talk about this. My beliefs have been
strengthened and my joy in unschooling renewed yet again :-) It's
interesting when you just go about living your life joyfully, no
longer reading the groups as much, no longer researching...time flies
by and all of a sudden I'm like...wait...did I miss something
important. My first couple of years I was SO immersed in learning
about & talking about unschooling...now it is just our lives...how
wonderful! I'm so glad I brought my worries here instead of
transfering them onto my son! I don't feel as though anything I have
done up until this point has harmed his sense of self which is
probably one of the main reasons I unschool in the first place! I
have not at all pressured him, just followed his lead and gave
information. I am glad to have your input about reading lessons, and
even more glad that I have not pressured him, again just responded to
him :-)
So, thanks again everyone who has contributed.
Peace~Love~Free~
Tracy
--- In [email protected], Schuyler <s.waynforth@...>
wrote:
but it isn't yet fully integrated. There is nothing I can do to stop
or start the process that is already in motion. He is involved in a
world with words. He is taking letters and recognizing them in
sequences that are moving more often towards a correct interpretation
of what they mean to be representing. Actually, that isn't true. I
could pressure him. I could make him uncomfortable with words. I
could tell him that he is being stubborn or stupid or lazy when it
comes to reading. I could give him reading lessons, I could push
phonics at him or whole word recognition. But I don't and there isn't
a bone in his body that is resisting becoming literate.
I was when he was 4 and I needed him to validate my decision to
homeschool. I was when Linnaea, his younger sister, started reading
at 6 and he was 9 and I worried that it would hurt his ego, his sense
of self, that she could read and that he couldn't and that it would
be this story of how dumb he was. I was stunned to watch him come to
her with words he didn't know. I was stunned to see how comfortable
he was with who he was. I'm 40 moving on toward 41 and I don't know
that I have nearly as strong a sense of self.
remembers details that I don't, he plays games with such skill, such
ability, such a grasp for the non-reading clues and cues in so many
different environments. It is amazing to see through his eyes.
Not because English was everywhere, but because it wasn't as hard as
I think it ought to be, or thought it ought to be, to get along
without being able to read. People helped us. If I lived in Japan
today after 8 years of living there, I would be literate. I could
pick the bus to get home without having to look at the note in my
pocket, I could read the ingredients on a box of crackers, I could
buy non-English language books from the bookstore and read them, and
get the cultural references, or most of them.
Simon. It doesn't come up in my interactions. And I'm not worried.
strengthened and my joy in unschooling renewed yet again :-) It's
interesting when you just go about living your life joyfully, no
longer reading the groups as much, no longer researching...time flies
by and all of a sudden I'm like...wait...did I miss something
important. My first couple of years I was SO immersed in learning
about & talking about unschooling...now it is just our lives...how
wonderful! I'm so glad I brought my worries here instead of
transfering them onto my son! I don't feel as though anything I have
done up until this point has harmed his sense of self which is
probably one of the main reasons I unschool in the first place! I
have not at all pressured him, just followed his lead and gave
information. I am glad to have your input about reading lessons, and
even more glad that I have not pressured him, again just responded to
him :-)
So, thanks again everyone who has contributed.
Peace~Love~Free~
Tracy
--- In [email protected], Schuyler <s.waynforth@...>
wrote:
>isn't among the literate, yet. It is becoming a part of who he is,
> Simon is 11, moving inexorably (I need to believe) toward 12. He
but it isn't yet fully integrated. There is nothing I can do to stop
or start the process that is already in motion. He is involved in a
world with words. He is taking letters and recognizing them in
sequences that are moving more often towards a correct interpretation
of what they mean to be representing. Actually, that isn't true. I
could pressure him. I could make him uncomfortable with words. I
could tell him that he is being stubborn or stupid or lazy when it
comes to reading. I could give him reading lessons, I could push
phonics at him or whole word recognition. But I don't and there isn't
a bone in his body that is resisting becoming literate.
>into sentences into books. He will be. I am not worried. I have been.
> He isn't ready to read. Or, rather, he isn't ready to string words
I was when he was 4 and I needed him to validate my decision to
homeschool. I was when Linnaea, his younger sister, started reading
at 6 and he was 9 and I worried that it would hurt his ego, his sense
of self, that she could read and that he couldn't and that it would
be this story of how dumb he was. I was stunned to watch him come to
her with words he didn't know. I was stunned to see how comfortable
he was with who he was. I'm 40 moving on toward 41 and I don't know
that I have nearly as strong a sense of self.
>him. He sees things I miss as I live in my fully literate world. He
> The fun thing, having an older not-yet-reader, is learning from
remembers details that I don't, he plays games with such skill, such
ability, such a grasp for the non-reading clues and cues in so many
different environments. It is amazing to see through his eyes.
>speak and read almost no Japanese and I was relatively unhandicapped.
> We lived in Japan for a year. A year when I was the illiterate. I
Not because English was everywhere, but because it wasn't as hard as
I think it ought to be, or thought it ought to be, to get along
without being able to read. People helped us. If I lived in Japan
today after 8 years of living there, I would be literate. I could
pick the bus to get home without having to look at the note in my
pocket, I could read the ingredients on a box of crackers, I could
buy non-English language books from the bookstore and read them, and
get the cultural references, or most of them.
>read. I don't know if they were older or younger than me, or than
> I don't know what age the adults I know were when they learned to
Simon. It doesn't come up in my interactions. And I'm not worried.
>does
> Schuyler
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: tracyliebmann <tracyliebmann@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Saturday, 10 January, 2009 5:39:43 PM
> Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Need some support
>
> Hi~ I' feeling very uneasy about the fact that my son is 11 and
> not read yet. I know all the facts about unschooling, have read allthe
> Sandra & Joyce links about reading over and over again through thesupport,
> years. Yet, I am still worried. I need some unschooling tribe
> I'm worrying that I need to "do" something. When ever he brings itup,
> we talk about all the options and he still just says he does notwant
> to. I read to him when ever he asks. He is an avid gamer and onlineout
> gamer...I don't even know how he does it as well as he does with
> knowing how to read...I can't imagine memorizing all those thingson
> World of Warcraft for example, but he does and has for many years.I
> know he is smart and have always believed he will just one day beI
> reading...like all the stories I have read. Yet here I am worried,
> have started to write this e-mail more than once over the last fewbe
> months and have stopped myself because I feel as though I shouldn't
> worried...let alone admit it to a large group like this. I respectappreciate it!
> Sandras knowledge of unschooling and others who write in, so if you
> could give me some practical and personal support I would
> Thanks~ Tracy
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Jenny C
>He sees things I miss as I live in my fully literate world. He remembers
> The fun thing, having an older not-yet-reader, is learning from him.
details that I don't, he plays games with such skill, such ability, such
a grasp for the non-reading clues and cues in so many different
environments. It is amazing to see through his eyes.
>This was and is true for Chamille! When we played Clue, she didn't
write anything down because she couldn't read or write yet, but she kept
track of it all in her head, and often won. It is truly amazing, her
eye for the details others miss. It never ceases to amaze me!!!
Rod Thomas
why do you suppose there are illiterate adults?
Kathy
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Joyce Fetteroll
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 2:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Need some support
Kathy
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Joyce Fetteroll
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 2:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Need some support
On Jan 10, 2009, at 1:42 PM, tracyliebmann wrote:
> Do you think even offering "lessons" is bad as an unschooler?
If they were ballet lessons or guitar lessons I wouldn't hesitate to
offer :-) (along with the freedom to play and mess around if that's
what my daughter wanted.)
The problem with reading lessons is the belief that lack of knowledge
is the big obstacle between the child and reading. If that were true,
then all kids in school would be reading.
But if he is not developmentally ready to read -- meaning all the
brain areas he needs to put it all together aren't mature yet -- then
he really can't read. He's like a 6 mo old in terms of walking.
Walking lessons won't help. He'll walk when he's developmentally
ready to walk. And he'll read when he's developmentally ready to read.
If you're certain reading lessons will help and they don't, how will
he feel? I think it's likely he'll feel he's dumb or there's
something wrong with him.
And if he ends up reading after reading lessons (because he was on
the verge of reading), then it's possible he'll feel like you should
have used them ages ago and be resentful.
If he's not developmentally ready, reading lessons won't help. If he
is developmentally ready, he's going to read anyway.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 10, 2009, at 5:31 PM, Rod Thomas wrote:
It takes being read to. It takes immersion in a print rich
environment. It takes pleasant experiences with the written word. It
takes a personal need to read and things they want to read. It takes
someone willing to answer questions.
No one thing is key. Figuring out reading comes from a combination of
many things.
Illiterate adults either didn't have experience with reading, like
immigrants or homes where the other members of the family don't read,
or they were pressured to read before they were capable. That
pressure to do what adults believe they can, when "everyone" else is
doing it, can be demoralizing. To protect themselves they can give up
and decide they're dumb so they expect the failure or decide reading
is dumb so why bother.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> why do you suppose there are illiterate adults?Learning to read takes more than not doing anything!
It takes being read to. It takes immersion in a print rich
environment. It takes pleasant experiences with the written word. It
takes a personal need to read and things they want to read. It takes
someone willing to answer questions.
No one thing is key. Figuring out reading comes from a combination of
many things.
Illiterate adults either didn't have experience with reading, like
immigrants or homes where the other members of the family don't read,
or they were pressured to read before they were capable. That
pressure to do what adults believe they can, when "everyone" else is
doing it, can be demoralizing. To protect themselves they can give up
and decide they're dumb so they expect the failure or decide reading
is dumb so why bother.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-why do you suppose there are illiterate adults?-=-
School screwed them up, or they grew up in a house without any
printed word, in which reading was reviled.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
School screwed them up, or they grew up in a house without any
printed word, in which reading was reviled.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I was stunned to watch him come to her with words he didn't know.
I was stunned to see how comfortable he was with who he was.-=-
Yes. Whereas a fifth grader might be ashamed to ask for help from a
second grader, my kids were never ANY-graders.
Marty and Kirby only read digital clocks for a long time. For
whatever reason, Holly learned analog first. When they were out
together one day, at a mall, the boys couldn't read the analog clock
and Holly read it to them. They didn't hesitate to ask her, and she
was glad to have been of true use to them.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I was stunned to see how comfortable he was with who he was.-=-
Yes. Whereas a fifth grader might be ashamed to ask for help from a
second grader, my kids were never ANY-graders.
Marty and Kirby only read digital clocks for a long time. For
whatever reason, Holly learned analog first. When they were out
together one day, at a mall, the boys couldn't read the analog clock
and Holly read it to them. They didn't hesitate to ask her, and she
was glad to have been of true use to them.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Melissa Dietrick
Hi tracy,
I havent been unschooling officially for much more than a year and a
half now (with my 5th dd who is 8.5yrs) but Im pretty sure that for
parenting we were in line, just our first 4 children have gone to
school (half days here in italy, tho--a big difference I expect from
the norm).
What Ive come to notice is that learning to read is not much different
from weaning --it really is not a clean cut process. Mainstream
culture tends to see weaning as something one decides to do to the
child (meaning stop breastfeeding and start feeding "real" food),
rather than seeing it as a slow, very slow process...the baby starts
to play and tast with food, if let to do so, for months and months
(years, lol). My 3 year old is still nursing tons *and* eats
willingly, enthusiastically almost every day. If I were like most
mammas here in italy, Id be frantic that he "wasnt eating" but he is.
it just doesnt look like how *i* eat.
What I have noticed is that reading, left alone, seems to be the same
thing. A slow slow, very individual process...and that your llyr is
probably reading like my boy is eating, in his own way, how he likes
best when he feels like it, lol. Naturally learning to read doesnt
look like "real" (as in mainstream) reading just as natural weaning
doesnt look like mainstream weaning.
melissa
in italy
mamma of 7
lucia 21.5yr, lidia 17.9yr, matteo 14.75yr, raffaele 11yr,
elena shanti 8.5yr, giacomo leo 5.5yr and gioele 3.25y
"There is a Place beyond Rightness and Wrongness -- let us meet
There." §Rumi
http://www.larimeloom.etsy.com
http://www.flauto.tk
http://www.attachmentparenting.eu
www.nontogliermiilsorriso.org
--- In [email protected], "tracyliebmann"
<tracyliebmann@...> wrote:
I havent been unschooling officially for much more than a year and a
half now (with my 5th dd who is 8.5yrs) but Im pretty sure that for
parenting we were in line, just our first 4 children have gone to
school (half days here in italy, tho--a big difference I expect from
the norm).
What Ive come to notice is that learning to read is not much different
from weaning --it really is not a clean cut process. Mainstream
culture tends to see weaning as something one decides to do to the
child (meaning stop breastfeeding and start feeding "real" food),
rather than seeing it as a slow, very slow process...the baby starts
to play and tast with food, if let to do so, for months and months
(years, lol). My 3 year old is still nursing tons *and* eats
willingly, enthusiastically almost every day. If I were like most
mammas here in italy, Id be frantic that he "wasnt eating" but he is.
it just doesnt look like how *i* eat.
What I have noticed is that reading, left alone, seems to be the same
thing. A slow slow, very individual process...and that your llyr is
probably reading like my boy is eating, in his own way, how he likes
best when he feels like it, lol. Naturally learning to read doesnt
look like "real" (as in mainstream) reading just as natural weaning
doesnt look like mainstream weaning.
melissa
in italy
mamma of 7
lucia 21.5yr, lidia 17.9yr, matteo 14.75yr, raffaele 11yr,
elena shanti 8.5yr, giacomo leo 5.5yr and gioele 3.25y
"There is a Place beyond Rightness and Wrongness -- let us meet
There." §Rumi
http://www.larimeloom.etsy.com
http://www.flauto.tk
http://www.attachmentparenting.eu
www.nontogliermiilsorriso.org
--- In [email protected], "tracyliebmann"
<tracyliebmann@...> wrote:
>
> Hi~ I' feeling very uneasy about the fact that my son is 11 and does
> not read yet.
k
>>>> What Ive come to notice is that learning to read is not much differentfrom weaning --it really is not a clean cut process. Mainstream
culture tends to see weaning as something one decides to do to the
child (meaning stop breastfeeding and start feeding "real" food),
rather than seeing it as a slow, very slow process...the baby starts
to play and tast with food, if let to do so, for months and months
(years, lol). My 3 year old is still nursing tons *and* eats
willingly, enthusiastically almost every day. If I were like most
mammas here in italy, Id be frantic that he "wasnt eating" but he is.
it just doesnt look like how *i* eat.
>>>> What I have noticed is that reading, left alone, seems to be the samething. A slow slow, very individual process...and that your llyr is
probably reading like my boy is eating, in his own way, how he likes
best when he feels like it, lol. Naturally learning to read doesnt
look like "real" (as in mainstream) reading just as natural weaning
doesnt look like mainstream weaning. <<<<
The above is a great synopsis comparing breastfeeding (and any other
attachment parenting we might be doing) with unschooling. This is very much
how I see unschooling as an extension of the ways I've practiced attachment
parenting, and in fact I see unschooling as another practice that continues
attachment between parent and child. I'm enjoying seeing what can be seen
of my child's progress and just enjoying my child. That's a huge plus over
being relieved to be rid of what's often perceived as peskiness. (Visiting
with my dad brings this into sharp focus, the fact that others see Karl as a
pesky childish nuisance rather than a interesting person who's interested in
others. Gosh I so much prefer my own perception. :D )
To many mainstream parents, me saying that unschooling is an extension of
attachment parenting may sound like I'm a mama who can't "cut the apron
strings" and encourage my child to get independent within an appropriate
time frame.
Instead, like Melissa says, I think children want independence much sooner
than the majority of parents want to see it, and that children want
independence not all at once but in that slow slow process of integration
over a period of years, during the entire time they live with their parents,
when and as they feel like it. In what looks to many like "slow" or "no"
progress. It's why unschooling is so friendly for all children regardless
of what categories the children fall into in the school environment, whether
overall they're perceived as slow, fast, or average.
No wonder the kids gain confidence in who they are. They never feel
pressured to pretend otherwise.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-This was and is true for Chamille! When we played Clue, she didn't
write anything down because she couldn't read or write yet, but she kept
track of it all in her head, and often won.-=-
Holly, too. She won Clue half the time or more.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
write anything down because she couldn't read or write yet, but she kept
track of it all in her head, and often won.-=-
Holly, too. She won Clue half the time or more.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]