Why "fun" makes people angry
Sandra Dodd
I'm working on cleaning up some webpages this morning, and I followed
a link to make sure it still worked, and I clicked something from
there, and I wandered away. But I found this clear explanation for
why having fun is a sin. And I'm not saying it IS a sin, but I'm
saying some of you might have relatives and neighbors and maybe
social workers or doctors who believe more as this writer believes
than as most unschoolers I know believe. It's worth knowing.
***That is why Jesus would say to His disciples in Matthew 16:24,
". . . If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take
up his cross, and follow me." If fun is our motive in activities, no
one is going to take Matthew 16:24 seriously because there is nothing
fun about self-sacrifice and self-denial.***
It was in an article about why a certain type of serious Christian
family should keep their children from playing sports.
http://www.titus2.com/corners/11-08-d.htm
I went there because I hadn't known some families were so anti-
sports. It's on the list of things the Titus2 moms board wants
people to discourage ("no sports").
If anyone on this list thinks I'm too narrow in my ideas about what
should and shouldn't be discussed here, check this set of rules:
MOMSBoard FAQ and Posting Criteria
http://www.titus2.com/momsboard/m-board-info.htm
There are other quotes I've heard but didn't keep about foolishness
and play and other bad things. If any of you come across any, I
guess I should collect them. Sometimes unschoolers are too cavalier
and "whatever" about their joy and happiness, I think, and don't
realize what the objections really are. The U.S. has more
Puritanical history than other English speaking countries, so I think
the prejudice against having fun might be worse here. Do the Amish
discourage sports and playing among children? I'm curious now. In
New Zealand is it a sin for kids to giggle and be silly?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
a link to make sure it still worked, and I clicked something from
there, and I wandered away. But I found this clear explanation for
why having fun is a sin. And I'm not saying it IS a sin, but I'm
saying some of you might have relatives and neighbors and maybe
social workers or doctors who believe more as this writer believes
than as most unschoolers I know believe. It's worth knowing.
***That is why Jesus would say to His disciples in Matthew 16:24,
". . . If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take
up his cross, and follow me." If fun is our motive in activities, no
one is going to take Matthew 16:24 seriously because there is nothing
fun about self-sacrifice and self-denial.***
It was in an article about why a certain type of serious Christian
family should keep their children from playing sports.
http://www.titus2.com/corners/11-08-d.htm
I went there because I hadn't known some families were so anti-
sports. It's on the list of things the Titus2 moms board wants
people to discourage ("no sports").
If anyone on this list thinks I'm too narrow in my ideas about what
should and shouldn't be discussed here, check this set of rules:
MOMSBoard FAQ and Posting Criteria
http://www.titus2.com/momsboard/m-board-info.htm
There are other quotes I've heard but didn't keep about foolishness
and play and other bad things. If any of you come across any, I
guess I should collect them. Sometimes unschoolers are too cavalier
and "whatever" about their joy and happiness, I think, and don't
realize what the objections really are. The U.S. has more
Puritanical history than other English speaking countries, so I think
the prejudice against having fun might be worse here. Do the Amish
discourage sports and playing among children? I'm curious now. In
New Zealand is it a sin for kids to giggle and be silly?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<< The U.S. has more
Church of England school, sports was and is hugely encouraged, as was dance
and theatricals and art, and the teachers went to some trouble to find fun
in the lessons. However also encouraged were prayer, reading of scripture
and charitable giving.
We always used to giggle because the founder of our school, Jane Barker took
the Casterton School in England as her model. That school was also known to
be the model for the horrendous charity school, Lowood Institution, in
Charlotte Bronte's "Jane Eyre".
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
> Puritanical history than other English speaking countries, so I thinkI don't know about New Zealand, but I can tell you that growing up in a
> the prejudice against having fun might be worse here. Do the Amish
> discourage sports and playing among children? I'm curious now. In
> New Zealand is it a sin for kids to giggle and be silly? >>>>
Church of England school, sports was and is hugely encouraged, as was dance
and theatricals and art, and the teachers went to some trouble to find fun
in the lessons. However also encouraged were prayer, reading of scripture
and charitable giving.
We always used to giggle because the founder of our school, Jane Barker took
the Casterton School in England as her model. That school was also known to
be the model for the horrendous charity school, Lowood Institution, in
Charlotte Bronte's "Jane Eyre".
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
claire.horsley08
Here in Australia, sport IS our religion! As a non-sporty person myself, I sometimes feel a
bit on the outer because discussing sport is one of the standard elements of general
conversation. With regard to kids having fun, I may be seeing this through an unschooling
filter, but I think generally kids here are encouraged to have fun OUTSIDE (ie. away from
the mummies so they can talk). And then parent participation can be a bit lacking (I'm
referring to younger children here - my oldest is nearly 4).
I followed the links to the board Sandra found and it looked like something from the stone
age - wives 'submitting' to husbands, 'God' directly intervening in people's lives. There is
a theory that many of the world's current woes can be traced to the split between body
and spirit found in monotheistic religions. Denying our bodily urges, pleasures and needs
divorces us from the natural world, hence the exploitation of animals, of the earth, global
warming ...
Having fun, exploring our physicality through sport and other activities is part of being
human. To deny these things is to work against our own nature.
bit on the outer because discussing sport is one of the standard elements of general
conversation. With regard to kids having fun, I may be seeing this through an unschooling
filter, but I think generally kids here are encouraged to have fun OUTSIDE (ie. away from
the mummies so they can talk). And then parent participation can be a bit lacking (I'm
referring to younger children here - my oldest is nearly 4).
I followed the links to the board Sandra found and it looked like something from the stone
age - wives 'submitting' to husbands, 'God' directly intervening in people's lives. There is
a theory that many of the world's current woes can be traced to the split between body
and spirit found in monotheistic religions. Denying our bodily urges, pleasures and needs
divorces us from the natural world, hence the exploitation of animals, of the earth, global
warming ...
Having fun, exploring our physicality through sport and other activities is part of being
human. To deny these things is to work against our own nature.
--- In [email protected], "Robyn L. Coburn" <dezigna@...> wrote:
>
> <<<< The U.S. has more
> > Puritanical history than other English speaking countries, so I think
> > the prejudice against having fun might be worse here. Do the Amish
> > discourage sports and playing among children? I'm curious now. In
> > New Zealand is it a sin for kids to giggle and be silly? >>>>
>
> I don't know about New Zealand, but I can tell you that growing up in a
> Church of England school, sports was and is hugely encouraged, as was dance
> and theatricals and art, and the teachers went to some trouble to find fun
> in the lessons. However also encouraged were prayer, reading of scripture
> and charitable giving.
>
> We always used to giggle because the founder of our school, Jane Barker took
> the Casterton School in England as her model. That school was also known to
> be the model for the horrendous charity school, Lowood Institution, in
> Charlotte Bronte's "Jane Eyre".
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
> www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
> www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
>
Dan Lake
This is the most frightening web site I have seen in a great while. I
think my personal favorite is this "product" they are offering:
"The If/Then Chart was one of the most instrumental tools we found for
helping us deal consistently with our children's misbehavior. Before
using the If/Then Chart, Teri would often become angry with the
children when they were doing something they shouldn't or not doing
what they should. She knew they needed a consequence but wouldn't know
what a reasonable one would be."
http://www.titus2.com/ecommerce/products/prod_listing.php/8130
think my personal favorite is this "product" they are offering:
"The If/Then Chart was one of the most instrumental tools we found for
helping us deal consistently with our children's misbehavior. Before
using the If/Then Chart, Teri would often become angry with the
children when they were doing something they shouldn't or not doing
what they should. She knew they needed a consequence but wouldn't know
what a reasonable one would be."
http://www.titus2.com/ecommerce/products/prod_listing.php/8130
Dan Lake
Oh, and I like that each "If" comes with a quote from the Bible so
that the kids will know... "The Lord himself approves of what I'm
about to do to you..."
that the kids will know... "The Lord himself approves of what I'm
about to do to you..."
On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 1:31 PM, Dan Lake <danthedad@...> wrote:
> This is the most frightening web site I have seen in a great while. I
> think my personal favorite is this "product" they are offering:
>
> "The If/Then Chart was one of the most instrumental tools we found for
> helping us deal consistently with our children's misbehavior. Before
> using the If/Then Chart, Teri would often become angry with the
> children when they were doing something they shouldn't or not doing
> what they should. She knew they needed a consequence but wouldn't know
> what a reasonable one would be."
>
> http://www.titus2.com/ecommerce/products/prod_listing.php/8130
>
Lyla Wolfenstein
how funny - this must be making the rounds? i JUST posted this to a local list because a friend of mine saw this IN person at someone's house yesterday. it is truly horrifying. they have a "good things" chart too...
lyla
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lyla
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I followed the links to the board Sandra found and it looked like
something from the stone
age - wives 'submitting' to husbands, 'God' directly intervening in
people's lives.-=-
Fundamentalist Christianity. Australia has some too, but nobody has
it like the U.S. has it. And it's important for people to know, for
unschoolers to know, that there are way more of them than of us. So
when an unschooler is dealing with the press or any public discussion
of homeschooling in general, to express surprise or denial that there
is a huge number of such homeschoolers is naive at best and ignorant
or dishonest at worst.
Christian homeschoolers have HUGE conferences--thousands of families,
hundreds of vendors (because they buy things, and lots of things,
like punishment charts, and science and history books created
specifically for that market). It's fascinating like a train wreck
that's lasted 25 years so far.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
something from the stone
age - wives 'submitting' to husbands, 'God' directly intervening in
people's lives.-=-
Fundamentalist Christianity. Australia has some too, but nobody has
it like the U.S. has it. And it's important for people to know, for
unschoolers to know, that there are way more of them than of us. So
when an unschooler is dealing with the press or any public discussion
of homeschooling in general, to express surprise or denial that there
is a huge number of such homeschoolers is naive at best and ignorant
or dishonest at worst.
Christian homeschoolers have HUGE conferences--thousands of families,
hundreds of vendors (because they buy things, and lots of things,
like punishment charts, and science and history books created
specifically for that market). It's fascinating like a train wreck
that's lasted 25 years so far.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Dec 14, 2008, at 2:00 PM, Lyla Wolfenstein wrote:
friend in school, I was her Girl Scout Leader, and her brother was in
Roxana's class. The mom and I talked a lot - about school. Then she
suddenly took her kids out of school and started homeschooling. Roya
was invited to a birthday party at their house and I went inside and
was shocked to see the various charts and signs posted. They had a
huge chart on which there were listed all the different crimes the
kids might commit and what the consequences would be for each. The
consequences were - get this - extra schoolwork.
I had sorta kinda been thinking about homeschooling, too, but I
immediately was turned off and put it out of my mind for another year
(at which time I ran into Sandra and others on AOL and had my
imagination ignited!).
-pam
> how funny - this must be making the rounds? i JUST posted this to aIt put me off of homeschooling for a whole year. Roya had a good
> local list because a friend of mine saw this IN person at someone's
> house yesterday. it is truly horrifying. they have a "good things"
> chart too...
friend in school, I was her Girl Scout Leader, and her brother was in
Roxana's class. The mom and I talked a lot - about school. Then she
suddenly took her kids out of school and started homeschooling. Roya
was invited to a birthday party at their house and I went inside and
was shocked to see the various charts and signs posted. They had a
huge chart on which there were listed all the different crimes the
kids might commit and what the consequences would be for each. The
consequences were - get this - extra schoolwork.
I had sorta kinda been thinking about homeschooling, too, but I
immediately was turned off and put it out of my mind for another year
(at which time I ran into Sandra and others on AOL and had my
imagination ignited!).
-pam
Jenny C
> "The If/Then Chart was one of the most instrumental tools we found forHoly moly, my parents would've loved to have a chart like this when I
> helping us deal consistently with our children's misbehavior. Before
> using the If/Then Chart, Teri would often become angry with the
> children when they were doing something they shouldn't or not doing
> what they should. She knew they needed a consequence but wouldn't know
> what a reasonable one would be."
was a kid! One that refers all issues to biblical references so
lovingly taken out of context to meet the needs of the person using them
to control another!
I'm sure there are lots of folks on this board that grew up similarly,
because it IS common, and my parents were pretty relaxed compared to
some of the other kids that I grew up with in church, who couldn't even
watch cartoons because they weren't straight from GOD!
saturnfire16
The adversarial parenting on Christian websites like these breaks my
heart. All the man-made "religion" that has nothing to do with the
Bible drives me nuts. I'm by no means a Bible scholar, but here are
a few things that jumped out at me. Maybe they could be helpful to
someone who has friends or family in this camp.
==========We need to begin by defining sports for the purpose of this
discussion because there are a wide variety of activities that are
called sports, and some are beyond the scope of this Corner. The
first use of the word "sport" in Scripture is found in Judges
16:25. "And it came to pass, when their hearts were merry, that they
said, Call for Samson, that he may make us sport. And they called for
Samson out of the prison house; and he made them sport: and they set
him between the pillars." According to Strong's Talking Hebrew and
Greek Dictionary, the Hebrew word for sport is "sahaq" and is also
translated to play (10 times), laugh (10), rejoice (3), scorn (3),
sport (3), and five other words. To play and have a good time is a
primary thread woven into the fabric of why sports are important to
families today and a key aspect of its definition.
Next, I went to a number of resources to see what our modern English
definition of sports would be. Merriam-Webster primarily defines
sport as "a source of diversion, recreation, a physical activity
engaged in for pleasure such as an athletic game." To compete is the
heart of most athletic games and compete is defined as, "To strive
consciously or unconsciously for an objective (as position, profit,
or prize): be in a state if rivalry." And finally rival is defined
as, "one of two or more striving to reach or obtain something that
only one can possess." So for the purpose of this discussion, let's
define sports as, "physical activities that are fun or pleasurable
where the purpose is to compete and win against another person or
team." Whether the sport is officially organized and whether they
keep score has some bearing, but we won't make that part of the
definition.========
It's simply not logical to compare the Hebrew word, translated into
Old English with the modern American English use of the word to make
a point. What that verse actually says in plain English is that they
mocked and made fun of Sampson. Not a virtue, and hopefully not
anything promoted by modern sports.
=======That is why Jesus would say to His disciples in Matthew
16:24, ". . . If any man will come after me, let him deny himself,
and take up his cross, and follow me." If fun is our motive in
activities, no one is going to take Matthew 16:24 seriously because
there is nothing fun about self-sacrifice and self-denial.========
This is speaking to adults, and has nothing to do with parenting. It
does not say "be miserable for me," or "make your children miserable
for me."
========On the other hand, the Christian faith is where we can all be
winners, and we are all trying to attain the crown together. I help
you, and you help me. We all win together. "Henceforth there is laid
up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous
judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all
them also that love his appearing" (2 Timothy 4:8). Sports train us
to receive pleasure in putting ourselves first and others down.
However, life in Christ is all about putting ourselves last while we
attempt to lift others up.===========
What about those that don't "love his appearing?" There will always
be someone on the other side. It's also part of the Christian faith
to try to gently encourage others to find the same joy in Christ that
we have. It can also be part of sports to encourage your team, and
two teams can fine-tune each other through competition, so they can
both excel. I wonder if they are against spelling bees and Bible
memorizing contests.
========="Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love;
in honour preferring one another" (Romans 12:10).========
=========Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" (Romans
13:9).=========
If this is the way we are to treat our brothers and neighbours,
shouldn't it be especially the way we should treat our children? How
does the rest of the website promote that?
I understand that they don't like the often cruel, shaming,
antagonistic aspect of many sports. I don't believe sports, even
competitive ones, have to be that way though.
For the record, I'm a Messianic Christian. We aren't a big sports
family, though dh played football in highschool, and I enjoy
basketball and soccer. If my children want to play sports I will
certainly support that. I would not tolerate a coach or anyone
demeaning, shaming or belittling my child or the other team. But
sports can be played with a spirit of love.
They'd probably have a heart attack at my church! With Davidic
dance, shofars, tamborines, bongos, we have a lot of fun. :)
heart. All the man-made "religion" that has nothing to do with the
Bible drives me nuts. I'm by no means a Bible scholar, but here are
a few things that jumped out at me. Maybe they could be helpful to
someone who has friends or family in this camp.
==========We need to begin by defining sports for the purpose of this
discussion because there are a wide variety of activities that are
called sports, and some are beyond the scope of this Corner. The
first use of the word "sport" in Scripture is found in Judges
16:25. "And it came to pass, when their hearts were merry, that they
said, Call for Samson, that he may make us sport. And they called for
Samson out of the prison house; and he made them sport: and they set
him between the pillars." According to Strong's Talking Hebrew and
Greek Dictionary, the Hebrew word for sport is "sahaq" and is also
translated to play (10 times), laugh (10), rejoice (3), scorn (3),
sport (3), and five other words. To play and have a good time is a
primary thread woven into the fabric of why sports are important to
families today and a key aspect of its definition.
Next, I went to a number of resources to see what our modern English
definition of sports would be. Merriam-Webster primarily defines
sport as "a source of diversion, recreation, a physical activity
engaged in for pleasure such as an athletic game." To compete is the
heart of most athletic games and compete is defined as, "To strive
consciously or unconsciously for an objective (as position, profit,
or prize): be in a state if rivalry." And finally rival is defined
as, "one of two or more striving to reach or obtain something that
only one can possess." So for the purpose of this discussion, let's
define sports as, "physical activities that are fun or pleasurable
where the purpose is to compete and win against another person or
team." Whether the sport is officially organized and whether they
keep score has some bearing, but we won't make that part of the
definition.========
It's simply not logical to compare the Hebrew word, translated into
Old English with the modern American English use of the word to make
a point. What that verse actually says in plain English is that they
mocked and made fun of Sampson. Not a virtue, and hopefully not
anything promoted by modern sports.
=======That is why Jesus would say to His disciples in Matthew
16:24, ". . . If any man will come after me, let him deny himself,
and take up his cross, and follow me." If fun is our motive in
activities, no one is going to take Matthew 16:24 seriously because
there is nothing fun about self-sacrifice and self-denial.========
This is speaking to adults, and has nothing to do with parenting. It
does not say "be miserable for me," or "make your children miserable
for me."
========On the other hand, the Christian faith is where we can all be
winners, and we are all trying to attain the crown together. I help
you, and you help me. We all win together. "Henceforth there is laid
up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous
judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all
them also that love his appearing" (2 Timothy 4:8). Sports train us
to receive pleasure in putting ourselves first and others down.
However, life in Christ is all about putting ourselves last while we
attempt to lift others up.===========
What about those that don't "love his appearing?" There will always
be someone on the other side. It's also part of the Christian faith
to try to gently encourage others to find the same joy in Christ that
we have. It can also be part of sports to encourage your team, and
two teams can fine-tune each other through competition, so they can
both excel. I wonder if they are against spelling bees and Bible
memorizing contests.
========="Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love;
in honour preferring one another" (Romans 12:10).========
=========Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" (Romans
13:9).=========
If this is the way we are to treat our brothers and neighbours,
shouldn't it be especially the way we should treat our children? How
does the rest of the website promote that?
I understand that they don't like the often cruel, shaming,
antagonistic aspect of many sports. I don't believe sports, even
competitive ones, have to be that way though.
For the record, I'm a Messianic Christian. We aren't a big sports
family, though dh played football in highschool, and I enjoy
basketball and soccer. If my children want to play sports I will
certainly support that. I would not tolerate a coach or anyone
demeaning, shaming or belittling my child or the other team. But
sports can be played with a spirit of love.
They'd probably have a heart attack at my church! With Davidic
dance, shofars, tamborines, bongos, we have a lot of fun. :)
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> I'm working on cleaning up some webpages this morning, and I
followed
> a link to make sure it still worked, and I clicked something from
> there, and I wandered away. But I found this clear explanation
for
> why having fun is a sin. And I'm not saying it IS a sin, but I'm
> saying some of you might have relatives and neighbors and maybe
> social workers or doctors who believe more as this writer believes
> than as most unschoolers I know believe. It's worth knowing.
>
>
>
> ***That is why Jesus would say to His disciples in Matthew 16:24,
> ". . . If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and
take
> up his cross, and follow me." If fun is our motive in activities,
no
> one is going to take Matthew 16:24 seriously because there is
nothing
> fun about self-sacrifice and self-denial.***
>
>
>
> It was in an article about why a certain type of serious Christian
> family should keep their children from playing sports.
>
> http://www.titus2.com/corners/11-08-d.htm
>
> I went there because I hadn't known some families were so anti-
> sports. It's on the list of things the Titus2 moms board wants
> people to discourage ("no sports").
>
>
>
> If anyone on this list thinks I'm too narrow in my ideas about
what
> should and shouldn't be discussed here, check this set of rules:
>
> MOMSBoard FAQ and Posting Criteria
>
> http://www.titus2.com/momsboard/m-board-info.htm
>
>
>
> There are other quotes I've heard but didn't keep about
foolishness
> and play and other bad things. If any of you come across any, I
> guess I should collect them. Sometimes unschoolers are too
cavalier
> and "whatever" about their joy and happiness, I think, and don't
> realize what the objections really are. The U.S. has more
> Puritanical history than other English speaking countries, so I
think
> the prejudice against having fun might be worse here. Do the
Amish
> discourage sports and playing among children? I'm curious now.
In
> New Zealand is it a sin for kids to giggle and be silly?
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-They'd probably have a heart attack at my church! With Davidic
dance, shofars, tamborines, bongos, we have a lot of fun. :) -=-
If you know some songs about those, you could play them on the lyrics
game:
http://lyricsgame.blogspot.com/2008/12/musical-instruments.html
Today's word is super. Yesterday's was musical instruments.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dance, shofars, tamborines, bongos, we have a lot of fun. :) -=-
If you know some songs about those, you could play them on the lyrics
game:
http://lyricsgame.blogspot.com/2008/12/musical-instruments.html
Today's word is super. Yesterday's was musical instruments.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]