Lyla Wolfenstein

i am cross posting this two unschooling lists.

i have a question that i just feel quite stuck with, and am hoping to get some perspective and experience.

i have two children - my son is 10 and my daughter is 13.

my son has been out of school for nearly a year and my daughter just decided about 6 weeks ago to leave school. she is thinking it is just for the semester or maybe the year, but i could imagine her choosing to stay home beyond that, especially if we can solve this dilemma...

here it is:

my kids have *very* different temperaments, and always have. they share some traits of course - sensitivity, passion, creativity...

but in terms of how they interact with the world and other people, they are sooooo different. my son is quite introverted, prefering the company of his close family and an occasional friend, lots of time alone, and a focused hobbies for activities, which very from week to week or month to month, but are focused on pretty intensely for however long they hold his interest. right now he is into jewelry making (beading) and baking. he gets quite stressed by too much activity, doesn't care for much travel, crowds, groups (even of familiar people), etc. and has very little tolerance for activities that he isn't personally interested in.

my daughter on the other hand is *very* extraverted, and if she could design her life exactly as she wanted it, it'd be full of spontaneous mother-daughter adventures, activities, and explorations, including time with me and my women friends (who she loves to hang out with), time together with just me, and time with our whole family, or just the three of us, while my husband is working, but only if my son would be a willing and fun participant.

expecting him to go along on stuff he isn't up for is a lose-lose situation, as it becomes miserable for everyone. bringing stuff along is no longer helpful - there is nothing portable that is interesting enough to him to help him get through an unpalatable situation.

he can stay home alone for a few hours at a time, once or twice a week, but that is not enough time to really get the kind of experiences my daughter is craving....and i can't fully relax or go far from home, so there are limitations there. i could of course drive her places and pick her up, and i facilitate any social activites she wants to be part of, but what she is really craving is that "unschooling family adventure experience"!

my husband works long hours, so time together is hard to come by, and time for him to stay with our son is limited too,although he does it frequently for parties, short trips, and events. there just doesn't seem to be enough hours in the day to meet everyone's needs for attention, activites, sleep, and connection.

as i was writing this, i was talking with a friend online and the only idea we came up with is to take my daughter out at night, after my son is asleep (around 10:30 or so) maybe once a week or so - to hear music, watch belly dancing, or something fun and "night lifey". that sounds great, and i think it will help (if i can stay awake!) but it still leaves all day every day with a fairly understimulated child who wants to get OUT and another to whom going out to do ANYTHING almost never sounds good, and mostly sounds torturous.

anyone else been there, done that? any ideas for how to "do" unschooling with two such very different kids without one kid feeling like an unwilling third wheel or the other feeling tormented with restlessness and understimulation?

thanks!

Lyla












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k

I feel so unqualified to add much of value to your question. I have a 5
year old only son.

However, this stuck out to me and I found myself scratching my head over it:
"unschooling family adventure experience"

That as an expectation sounds quite torturous to *me* and I'm an adult not a
teen or a child.

Having some conversations about expectations in general might clear the way
to some understanding what it looks and feels like to others to have
expectations laid on them. What if the situation were in reverse... if the
daughter were expected to behave contrary to her nature? To stay at home
continually and *not* be very social?

There may be something that can ease the situation or there may not be much
beyond acceptance of differences in people.

~Katherine


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Renee M

//any ideas for how to "do" unschooling with two such very different kids without one kid feeling like an unwilling third wheel or the other feeling tormented with restlessness and understimulation?//

You haven't mentioned finances here.  Since you are uncomfortable leaving your son alone, have you considered finding a sitter?  I know you'd like to be with both kids all the time, but having an older "grandma" type lady hanging out with her knitting or whatever while your son happily engages in his own thing at home might not be so bad, if it gives you some extra going-out time with your daughter that she craves.   And if she happens to have an interest in baking or jewelry making herself, maybe he finds an interested mentor as well.

Our kids are young yet, and the couple of non-family member sitters we've found that the kids really enjoy spending time with are older women with grown kids of their own. 

-Renee

 


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Sandra Dodd

-=-i am cross posting this two unschooling lists.-=-

I know people join the list all the time and can't have read
everything, but every time someone cross posts, I ask them not to.
Pick a place. Or post separately and don't tell us about the other one.

If this list isn't really the place you want to discuss something,
don't bring it to the list. It's like bulk mail then, and people
feel less responsibility to help. Bring special things to this list
if you want to, anytime.

Sandra

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Sandra Dodd

-=-as i was writing this, i was talking with a friend online and the
only idea we came up with is to take my daughter out at night, after
my son is asleep (around 10:30 or so) maybe once a week or so - to
hear music, watch belly dancing, or something fun and "night lifey".
that sounds great, and i think it will help (if i can stay awake!)
but it still leaves all day every day with a fairly understimulated
child who wants to get OUT and another to whom going out to do
ANYTHING almost never sounds good, and mostly sounds torturous.-=-

Your husband doesn't work seven days a week, does he? When he's
home, take off. Or does your son have a friend he could stay with or
have over who also likes being fairly still? Or do you have a
friend who would stay over with him for you to take your daughter on
overnight trips to visit female friends in other towns?

Holly loves to be with my friends, too, just to hear us talk or be in
on those conversations. Last week we visited a college friend of
mine I hadn't seen for years, but I had talked about, and Holly
reminded me several times she wanted to meet her, so we went and it
was great. Last year we drove 100 miles to see a cousin who grew up
with me, and we tried to go again in November, but logistics didn't
work out. There would have been no benefit at all in trying to
include Marty in those things. It was about Holly's desire to know
more about me as a person outside of just being her mom.

-=-anyone else been there, done that? any ideas for how to "do"
unschooling with two such very different kids without one kid feeling
like an unwilling third wheel or the other feeling tormented with
restlessness and understimulation?-=-

I have one introvert and two extrovert kids. We've found things to
do with one or two of them that didn't involve the others, and found
places or people for the others. Twice we've left Kirby and Holly
and taken Marty (the introvert) with us to do something. It might
seem backwards, but once we dropped Kirby and Holly off at a May Day
festival at which several friends and relatives were, partway between
Albuquerque and Denver, and took Marty with us to see a King Tut
exhibit at the museum up there, and to visit friends overnight. We
picked the other two up on the way home, and everyone had had a great
time. Another time, when Keith was living in Minneapolis, I got
friends to stay at my house and Marty and I went to MN for Marty's
birthday. He and Keith went snowboarding and ice skating and to
movies they would like, and I stayed at the apartment and talked to
friends on the phone and slept and watched movies.

There's nothing wrong with mixing it up that way.

Sandra

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Lyla Wolfenstein

i guess i should clarify - we do LOTS of "special" one time type things - i bring my daughter on moms "night out" - we have gone to conferences together, and on mini-vacations together, just the two of us, and she has gone to visit relatives and do other things with people we are close to, without me as well. the "special" times are not an issue carving out - it's the day to day every day, every week thing i am struggling with. if she only has 'special" things to look forward to, what would ever keep her from wanting to go back to school? she is bored and disatisfied at home during the week.

my son is not into the idea of being "babysat", nor does he form connections with others very easily....and all my friends/people he IS connected to either have young children of their own (younger) and no time for mentor relationships or are working during the day...

i guess perhaps there are no easy answers here, i was just wondering how folks with kids of different extreme temperaments pattern their day to day lives....?

Lyla



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Jenny C

" it's the day to day every day, every week thing i am struggling with.
if she only has 'special" things to look forward to, what would ever
keep her from wanting to go back to school? she is bored and disatisfied
at home during the week."

What about something like The Boys and Girls Club? You live pretty
urban, so there are probably several things of that nature around you.
Does she have interest in classes of any sort?

Chamille went through what you've described, and still occasionally
does. Taking off, when my husband came home helped a lot. We could
leave little sister at home and go do stuff for a few hours. Sometimes
we just walked around downtown PDX and looked a window displays,
sometimes we'd go out for coffee or a movie or the mall.

Doing FrightTown was a huge big deal thing that helped A LOT! It was 2
long days a week doing something hugely focused that lasted about 2
months. We did it just long enough to be ready to stop doing it by the
last day. Now a month out, we miss it. I try to take Chamille to the
grocery store with me while leaving Margaux behind with dad. It's not
totally exciting, yet it's time away from home getting stuff done, and
time to talk and listen to music together and check stuff out.

I try to be available for any and all chances of outings with friends,
and Chamille knows that, yet she's been reluctant to set stuff up
herself, until VERY recently.

I have very similar issues in regards to meeting the needs of both my
kids. Margaux doesn't like to be pressured to go out and do things,
expecially if it's so her sister can get out. If I set up stuff for
Margaux without her sister, she's very into it. So, unlike you, I have
to kids that like to get out and about, but mostly not together, and the
younger one can't stay home alone yet, and my older one doesn't really
like to stay home alone all the time, sometimes, but not always.
Finding things they both like, is hard because of the huge age
difference, and it's only getting more and more that way!

Chamille has a newish friend that has a car, so she may go do something
today while Margaux and I are out doing Margaux stuff. It's interesting
that Chamille has a friend with a car. I have mixed feelings about it,
but it's a first and it could turn out great for everyone.

k

This was just a movie and maybe not very real life. It's not an obscure
movie and maybe someone else remembers the title. I forget the name of it.
The plot is a young boy goes to a park where old guys play chess and joins
them, and it becomes something the kid does a lot. I think he's supposed to
be about 10 or 11.

A friend of mine has a loner-ish type child who likes having friends to hang
out with but not often. He will occasionally (once or so a week) hang out
with others (then it was in the afternoon to do some skateboarding and catch
up with them). Sometimes he goes to their parties, sometimes he'd rather be
home. He uses the cell phone a lot. He's not crazy about being around
people much. At that time in his life, he was a lot older than your son
though (16).

Maybe it was the times and maybe it was the circumstances. When I was ten,
my mom would often take the kids with her to grocery or thrift shop and
leave other kids at home who would rather watch TV or read. One of my aunts
who lived next door (there were one on each side of us) was invariably home
and never checked on us. Yet we knew we could go over to their house if we
needed to while our parents were out.

~Katherine



On 12/10/08, Lyla Wolfenstein <lylaw@...> wrote:
> i guess i should clarify - we do LOTS of "special" one time type things -
i bring my daughter on moms "night out" - we have gone to conferences
together, and on mini-vacations together, just the two of us, and she has
gone to visit relatives and do other things with people we are close to,
without me as well. the "special" times are not an issue carving out - it's
the day to day every day, every week thing i am struggling with. if she
only has 'special" things to look forward to, what would ever keep her from
wanting to go back to school? she is bored and disatisfied at home during
the week.
>
> my son is not into the idea of being "babysat", nor does he form
connections with others very easily....and all my friends/people he IS
connected to either have young children of their own (younger) and no time
for mentor relationships or are working during the day...
>
> i guess perhaps there are no easy answers here, i was just wondering how
folks with kids of different extreme temperaments pattern their day to day
lives....?
>
>
> Lyla


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Pamela Sorooshian

On Dec 10, 2008, at 9:50 AM, Lyla Wolfenstein wrote:

> my son is not into the idea of being "babysat", nor does he form
> connections with others very easily....and all my friends/people he
> IS connected to either have young children of their own (younger)
> and no time for mentor relationships or are working during the day...
>
> i guess perhaps there are no easy answers here, i was just wondering
> how folks with kids of different extreme temperaments pattern their
> day to day lives....?



I tried to respond to your first post about this, Lyla, but my
response seemed overly harsh. Now that you've gotten lots of other
ideas and posted again, dismissing them, I'm going to say it anyway.
You sound like people I know who aren't really looking for solutions,
but who are really wanting to complain about how impossible their
particular situation is. I'm not entirely sure why they want to do
that - but I'm suggesting that you examine that possibility in yourself.

The best solution I can offer (and I have one extreme extrovert and
one extreme introvert and another in-between) is to change your way of
thinking about it. Decide to think of this as an amazingly wonderful
incredibly positive aspect of your family and treat it that way. How
WONDERFUL that you have a child of each temperament. How wonderful
that you are able and willing to find ways to nurture both of them in
their own ways. How wonderful that they (and you) learn to enjoy and
appreciate the diversity of human temperament. How wonderful that your
daughter and son provide YOU with such a variety of life experiences.

In practice, multiple people living together ALWAYS have to "work
things out" between them. That is a process that goes on and on -
always changing in its dynamics, but never stopping. We all have that.
There is no "answer to the problem," there is only the day-to-day
thinking of each others' needs as we go about living our lives.

Reading your post, the one thing I kept thinking was that you're
looking too hard at the conflicts, too hard at how hard this is. You
can't "see" the solutions when your eyes are focused on the problem.
You have to look at it a little more "sideways" - by that I mean,
don't see it so black and white. Take bits of it and combine things.

For example, your daughter likes to hang out with you and your women
friends. Start a book club - once a month you have a group of women
friends come over and everybody has read the same book. You have food
(everyone contributes) based on a theme related to the book you all
read. You might have a little related game, some decorations, people
might even dress up. You spend a bit of time talking about the book,
most of the time is socializing. (You can google how to run book
clubs, but do keep it casual and be creative with it.) Now you have
one thing - once a month - that is a big social activity for you and
your daughter, and your son can be home, in his room, doing what he
feels like doing (if he's into it, he could help with the food,
decorations, etc, beforehand, then disappear during the get-together).

Another thing you could add to the mix - a weekly "game day" at your
house. Invite a group of kids to come to play RISK or some other
particular game that your daughter might enjoy. Make cookies, provide
a good nice clear comfy space and some background music. All you need
is a couple of kids and she's in a "group." You could do this at your
house, so your son can, again, just hang out where he wants and you
can be with him while you still hostess the game-players.

I know what you're going to say - you were looking for how to pattern
your day-to-day existence, not for ideas of one-time activities.

My answer is that that IS how your day-to-day existence gets its
"pattern," it is nothing more than the accumulation of all your plans.

Your daughter wants more activity? Help her get that by setting up
activities for her and helping her with transportation. Can you
provide as much of YOUR time in all these social activities as you
think she wants? Probably not - you have time constraints as real as
budget constraints. You have another child with different needs.
That's just a flat-out reality that your whole family can accept and
adjust to in the exact same way you adjust to whatever your particular
income level and standard of living are. You don't gain anything by
wishing it was different, you work it out - not by constantly
bemoaning how you don't have enough money, but by constantly focusing
on spending it on what will give you the most satisfaction. Do the
same with the kids. Spend your time with a positive energy, just like
you do your money.

When your daughter wants to do two or three social outings in one day,
one right on top of the other, and seems disappointed that you can't
manage that because you feel the need to be there for your home-loving
son, don't focus on how you're not able to 100 percent meet all of
both kids' immediate desires. Focus on overall meeting their needs -
hers for more social life and his for more home life. Point out to her
what you WILL be doing.

I had this scenario in my family, quite often.

We've spent hours at the beach with a large group of families. Roya is
energized and happy and excited and doesn't want it to end, wants to
start something else immediately with some of the people we just spent
a lot of time with. Roxana is worn out, had enough, desperately wants
to go home and curl up with a book all by herself and recuperate.

I might arrange for Roya to go with some of the other people there and
have dinner and spend the evening with them. I might invite a couple
of her friends to go home with us to watch a movie or something.

But sometimes I would not be able to arrange something and we'd go home.

We'd pull into the driveway of our house and Roya would be, in her
very high energy and demanding way, asking, "What now?" I'd say,
"Right now we go in the house and you find something to do on your own
for a while because the rest of us need some down time." I'd be
sympathetic, but I'd feel okay about this because we DID spend the day
in a big social situation and Roxana really DID need the down time.
I'd feel okay about it the same way I'd feel okay about saying, "Right
now we can't buy a new American Girl doll, but we will do our best to
figure out a way to get one for you." Meeting our kids needs doesn't
mean we can (magically) overcome all real constraints - it means we
are willing to consider and be creative and try to do our best to
support our kids' interests.

The nice thing about this is that the kids will, over time, realize
how we are truly trying to make life good for them and they will
appreciate it. My kids, at 17, 21, and 24, look around at how parents
generally are so very uncaring about children's needs and interests,
and they mention all the time how differently we treated them. This in
SPITE of the fact that I could not possibly claim that I could always
do exactly what every kid wanted exactly when they wanted. It was
always a matter of doing our best to balance what different people
wanted.

-pam

Lyla Wolfenstein

I know what you're going to say - you were looking for how to pattern
your day-to-day existence, not for ideas of one-time activities.>>

interesting - that is not at all what i was going to say! i do find that i am pretty creative about one time activities, although new ideas are always great to hear. but really appreciated your detailed descriptions of how you responded to different situations and your inventive ways for addressing the different needs. i guess i wasn't clear enough about all we DO do in that vein, in an effort to be brief.

i have done almost ALL the things you mention, and many of them work well, for sure! inviting folks into our home doesn't work well, unfortunately, as my son finds that very stressful (at least other kids). i have definitely had adult women parties/focused groups/activities and that works well. but everything else you mentioned is great, and a good reminder to just do more of that.

i am not "not looking for solutions" - but i am not really lookng for solutions, either, just ideas/experiences that might contrinbute to broadening my perspective on how to meet everyone's needs.

i *defintitely* try to focus on all of the ways in which things *are* working and all of the gifts that come with having different temperaments in the family - all the value gained for everyone and i DO appreciate all of that. i was just looking for some inspiration into how things look for similar folks with a similar constitution in their family.

i am sorry if i came across as "yes-butting" - i really do appreciate the ideas i got, and i will absolutely think about how things that might not first appear to have worked might actually work!

Lyla

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Lyla Wolfenstein

>>
What about something like The Boys and Girls Club? You live pretty
urban, so there are probably several things of that nature around you.
Does she have interest in classes of any sort?>>



yeah - she'd LOVE to take a writing class and we are both bummed and frustrated about that. she attended a local young writers group, but all the kids there were there for extra credit not because they actually like writing. so i found a "writer's haven" place that has a ton of awesome sounding classes - geared toward adults, but she was very excited about the prospect of takign a novel writing class there, as she is deep in the midst of writing her second novel...it says on the site to write for special permission to let a teen into the class - so we did. she was denied. the reason given was that teens usually need support and affirmation, while adults are given brutal honesty about their writing. we have written back asking for reconsideration, saying brutal honesty is what she really wants - have yet to hear back...

i also looked into community college classes, and may need to go that route again, but if you are under 16 it requires an exemption from compsulsory education letter from the district, and that would require registration, i assume...

i need to keep seeking...

>>Chamille went through what you've described, and still occasionally>>
does. Taking off, when my husband came home helped a lot. We could
leave little sister at home and go do stuff for a few hours. Sometimes
we just walked around downtown PDX and looked a window displays,
sometimes we'd go out for coffee or a movie or the mall.
>>

>>Doing FrightTown was a huge big deal thing that helped A LOT! It was 2
long days a week doing something hugely focused that lasted about 2
months. We did it just long enough to be ready to stop doing it by the
last day. Now a month out, we miss it. I try to take Chamille to the
grocery store with me while leaving Margaux behind with dad. It's not
totally exciting, yet it's time away from home getting stuff done, and
time to talk and listen to music together and check stuff out.

yes! we do this kidn of thing often and it does help a lot!

>>
I try to be available for any and all chances of outings with friends,
and Chamille knows that, yet she's been reluctant to set stuff up
herself, until VERY recently.>>

yes, i am always available for transportation, and yet, because she is recently unschooling, most of her friends are in school (that's why we started the teen unschoolers yahoo group! - hopefully that will turn into something!)

>>I have very similar issues in regards to meeting the needs of both my
kids. Margaux doesn't like to be pressured to go out and do things,
expecially if it's so her sister can get out. If I set up stuff for
Margaux without her sister, she's very into it. So, unlike you, I have
to kids that like to get out and about, but mostly not together, and the
younger one can't stay home alone yet, and my older one doesn't really
like to stay home alone all the time, sometimes, but not always.
Finding things they both like, is hard because of the huge age
difference, and it's only getting more and more that way!>>

thanks for that - it's nice to hear others find it challenging at times.

>>Chamille has a newish friend that has a car, so she may go do something
today while Margaux and I are out doing Margaux stuff. It's interesting
that Chamille has a friend with a car. I have mixed feelings about it,
but it's a first and it could turn out great for everyone.>>

wow yeah that is rather terrifying and liberating at the same time, i'd imagine! my daughter often dreams of when she can drive!

Lyla




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Sandra Dodd

-=-yeah - she'd LOVE to take a writing class and we are both bummed
and frustrated about that. she attended a local young writers group,
but all the kids there were there for extra credit not because they
actually like writing.-=-

The "bummed and frustrated" stands out. Could you have helped put a
positive spin on the opportunity so she could've lasted longer and
more happily?

What about online classes? It's not direct social experience but it
would involve idea-exchange and input.

I loved Pam's suggestion about a book club in your home! Maybe you
could combine that sometimes with lunches in the period or place of
the book, and it could include research and recipes and such.


Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-i was just looking for some inspiration into how things look for
similar folks with a similar constitution in their family.-=-

On this list, no matter what you thought you were "just looking for,"
you'll probably end up getting feedback on what the tone of your
post looks like to outsiders, and that can be very helpful when
someone's even the least bit stuck.

It seems you're blaming your son for your daughter's unhappiness, and
blaming her personality and needs for his frustration. There were
more negative phrases than I bet you realized you used. Neither of
your kids seems to be blind or physically disabled or deaf or
seriously ill. The tone of the post seemed to suggest things were
dire, though, and hopeless. It did sound like you wanted solutions.

Joyce only has one child, but her ideas might be worth ten times that
of someone with children almost exactly like yours, so please don't
try to limit your feedback to just similar folks with a similar
constitution in their similar family. The principles of unschooling
are larger than any one family's personal experience.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-=-yeah - she'd LOVE to take a writing class and we are both bummed
and frustrated about that. she attended a local young writers group,
but all the kids there were there for extra credit not because they
actually like writing.-=-

The "bummed and frustrated" stands out. Could you have helped put a
positive spin on the opportunity so she could've lasted longer and
more happily?---------

I'm am unclear what you mean by lasted longer? She was not admitted to the class....?

k

I like this suggestion too and you know what else ... SCA (Society for
Creative Anachronism) does a lot of similar things like that. I have been
surprised and pleased with the social possibilities in SCA in my region
which otherwise hasn't been that easy to get into through other groups.

I have a kid who absolutely loves playacting and dressing up for roles and
anything to do with stories, and he's even interested in making sure it's in
the right genre. I've never been much into that myself but I love seeing
what Karl does with those kinds of things.

~Katherine





On 12/10/08, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> I loved Pam's suggestion about a book club in your home! Maybe you
> could combine that sometimes with lunches in the period or place of
> the book, and it could include research and recipes and such.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

Here's what I read it to say: "she attended a local young writers group"


On 12/10/08, lylaw@... <lylaw@...> wrote:
>
> -=-yeah - she'd LOVE to take a writing class and we are
both bummed
> and frustrated about that. she attended a local young writers group,
> but all the kids there were there for extra credit not because they
> actually like writing.-=-
>
> The "bummed and frustrated" stands out. Could you have helped put a
> positive spin on the opportunity so she could've lasted longer and
>
> more happily?---------
>
> I'm am unclear what you mean by lasted longer? She was not admitted to
the class....?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

---
On this list, no matter what you thought you were "just looking for,"
you'll probably end up getting feedback on what the tone of your
post looks like to outsiders, and that can be very helpful when
someone's even the least bit stuck.

----

yes of course. That makes sense to me and I realize my tone didn't accurately convey my feelings. I thought I was being careful to be clear but obviously from the responses I was not.

-----
It seems you're blaming your son for your daughter's unhappiness, and
blaming her personality and needs for his frustration.

-----

wow really?? Interesting.... I am definitely noticing that my DAUGHTER is blaming my son, but I really don't blame him at all..i was trying to find ways to honor his temperament while meeting her needs so maybe it wouldn't feel so 'limited because of him' to my daughter...

I don't think I blame my daughter at all for his experience as she and I are more similar twmperament wise....


I am definitely interested in the principles of unschooling and I do recognize that 'similar experience' can look lots of different ways and doesn't have to mean same number of children or same exact experience.

Thanks for pointing out that my post was more negative than I may have realized, as I definitely strive to see opportunity in as many waus and places as I can.

[email protected]

Oh sorry I thought you were talking about the class. She was bored to tears at the group, the facilitator talked about her arthritis for 30 minutes, the writing exercise was very juvelile for her, and my daughter so nothing there to go back for unfortunately.

Sandra Dodd

-=-This was just a movie and maybe not very real life. It's not an
obscure
movie and maybe someone else remembers the title. I forget the name
of it.
The plot is a young boy goes to a park where old guys play chess and
joins
them, and it becomes something the kid does a lot. I think he's
supposed to
be about 10 or 11.-=-



Searching for Bobby Fischer?

If so, that is one GREAT movie for unschoolers. The boy has two very
different chess mentors, played by Ben Kingsley and Laurence Fishburne.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108065/






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

That's the one. :) An old good film. Another one I like but not quite as
much is Finding Forrester, still in the mentor category but much more
focused on school and its horrors, and the kid in it is an older teen,
although I think the music is absolutely divine. The "Somewhere" medley is
just so wonderful... it's probably my favorite part of the movie.

~Katherine




> -=-This was just a movie and maybe not very real life. It's not an
>
> obscure
> movie and maybe someone else remembers the title. I forget the name
> of it.
> The plot is a young boy goes to a park where old guys play chess and
> joins
> them, and it becomes something the kid does a lot. I think he's
> supposed to
>
> be about 10 or 11.-=-
>
>
>
> Searching for Bobby Fischer?
>
> If so, that is one GREAT movie for unschoolers. The boy has two very
> different chess mentors, played by Ben Kingsley and Laurence Fishburne.
>
> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108065/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

Are you sure there wouldn't have been anything there to go back for? I
suppose there's no getting around occasional boredom. In writer's groups
and classes particularly, I have found plenty of talkers (not always plenty
of writers.. ;). And so you'll have that where the person leading the group
is holding a group/class in order to have an audience.

It could still be a place to meet others who *are* interested in writing.
Encourage your daughter to consider the possibilities of others in the
class/group besides the leader/teacher as avenues of interest for her to
pursue with those who are likeminded, rather than seeing the class/group
only for the specified purpose of the activity it's supposed to be for.
Yes, your daughter may have clear expectations yet she might glean many more
social and critiquing/writing/collaborative opportunities by focusing on any
positives she can find rather than tunneling in on what was boring her to
tears. What if others were there she could band together with were she to
stay long enough to strike up conversations and find out what they are like?

~Katherine


>>>>Oh sorry I thought you were talking about the class. She was bored to
tears at the group, the facilitator talked about her arthritis for 30
minutes, the writing exercise was very juvelile for her, and my daughter so
nothing there to go back for unfortunately.<<<<

>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lyla Wolfenstein

well, she did stay for the whole 2 hours. i agree the that the people who show up might vary from month to month, and her original intention *was* to meet other kids interested in writing, but that just did not seem to be the case to her, at least that one evening. she may agree to give it another try, although i think at this point she tends to enjoy the company of older teens and adults more than younger or same age teens, which is what this group appeared to be comprised of...


----- Original Message -----
From: k
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 4:38 PM
Subject: [SPAM]Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: insight into meeting divergent needs


Are you sure there wouldn't have been anything there to go back for? I
suppose there's no getting around occasional boredom.
.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Miriam Mason

Pamela Sorooshian wrote:
>
>
> You sound like people I know who aren't really looking for solutions,
> but who are really wanting to complain about how impossible their
> particular situation is. I'm not entirely sure why they want to do
> that - but I'm suggesting that you examine that possibility in yourself.

[NOTE TO MODERATOR: You may not want to let this post through, but I did
feel at least you both should see it.]

I rarely post because I feel I must still learn so much, it's probably
better to keep my mouth quiet and my ears and eyes open, but I felt I
simply must. And ordinarily I would not post about an individual on any
list, because I know it's not the point of the list. I'm going to,
though, because it felt very personally as though it was more about Lyla
herself than what she asked.

In defense of Lyla, I've known her for almost 10 years personally,
spoken with her every day, been to gatherings with her, gotten together
as often as the divergent characters of our children have allowed us to.
I can say with all assuredness that Lyla is one of the most positive,
loving, supportive people I know. Her children love her, MY children
love her, all the children she knows love her.

She is the antithesis of a complainer. She is fiercely in love with her
children (all children, frankly), constantly seeking ideas and
perspective to become an even better Mama than the amazing Mama she
already is. She is also one of my most valued and loved friends.

Knowing Lyla, I know she was genuinely seeking advice/input/ideas, and
many of the ideas she was presented with were ones she had already
tried. She is a scientist of human nature and was looking for new ideas
that she might be able to adapt to her situation. I also know her
children well -- the question made perfect sense to me. She has never
blamed her children for anything. On the contrary. She was one of
those wise women that taught me through modeling really early on not to
blame my own children (as my parents had blamed me).

Perhaps there was more read into her post than she ever intended?
Perhaps it was a miscommunication? Perhaps she didn't word it properly?
Or there was a misunderstanding of what she was seeking?

When I first read her post, my thoughts were "wow, what a great post for
this list". Was it not a bit of valuable piece of information she was
seeking from those further on in the journey than herself? I was
interested in hearing the answers. I was very surprised at the above
response, particularly as I know her. Perhaps tough love is a good
thing, in some regards.

Just wanted to put that out there. Don't mean to open up wounds, or
anything, or criticize anyone on the list. Just to publicly affirm
someone who I respect, admire and cherish.

And believe me, Lyla started examining that possibility in herself the
moment she read the above response. :/ Thing is, she's not like that.

Very best,
Miriam

Sandra Dodd

-=-Perhaps there was more read into her post than she ever intended?
Perhaps it was a miscommunication? Perhaps she didn't word it properly?
Or there was a misunderstanding of what she was seeking?-=-

"Properly" isn't a good measure. There's more than one way to work
things.

Everyone who reads anything reads it from inside herself (or himself).

Sometimes people communicate more than they intended, or more than
than they knew they knew. It's part of the value of journals.

For the purposes of this list, it's okay for there to be
misunderstandings about what people were seeking. As Joyce wrote once:


The list is about ideas, not about people.
Think of ideas like balls and the list like a ball court. If someone
tosses an idea worth discussing into the court it's going to get
batted about. At that point what's going on is no longer about the
person who tossed the idea in. It's about the idea and how well and
cleanly it's being tossed about. (Unless the tosser keeps jumping in
and grabbing the idea ball saying "Mine!")

Joyce

http://sandradodd.com/lists/faq
(It was written about Always Learning, but it lives on the
Unschooling Discussion list faq)

When Holly was a baby I had already nursed two, and had gone quite a
way toward becoming a La Leche League leader (though I dropped that
to do cesarean prevention support). Holly wasn't nursing right.
Something was wrong. I had read everything LLL had readily
available, including a few years' worth of the publication for
leaders, and the leaders' handbook. I asked several of my friends
who were leaders. Some of their advice was elementary and basic and
I was frustrated, because of course I had tried all the easy stuff.
I ended up getting help from an outside lactation consultant, and
renting and electric pump, and feeding Holly with a tube on my finger
for a bit until the suck was established.

What turned out to be the deal was that she was sucking her tongue up
against the roof of her mouth. It was her own little comfort thing.
But it kept her from sucking after the first suck. She was a preemie
and the hospital hadn't noted her as such. Another friend who was a
neonatal nurse pointed that out as though I had known, but I hadn't.

Long story to say that sometimes a situation IS very unusual, and
volunteers can't help. But there will be others who learn just from
being around the attempt to help, and from hearing of the problem and
comparing it to their own experience.

We're all adding to our body of knowledge about parenting and
unschooling and communications. It's okay that not every exchange
or discussion is as perfect as if the greatest scriptwriters designed
it. Once in a while one DOES seem perfect, and we should appreciate
those more, and regret the imperfections less.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

>
> Oh sorry I thought you were talking about the class. She was bored to
tears at the group, the facilitator talked about her arthritis for 30
minutes, the writing exercise was very juvelile for her, and my daughter
so nothing there to go back for unfortunately.
>

Well, we've gone through similar things. About a year and a half ago,
Chamille, wanting to find like minded friends, signed up for a library
anime/manga club. She was really excited about going and it was geared
to kids specifically her age. She went to one meeting and it was a
horrible experience for her. All the other kids had come with at least
one other friend, it was in a large space and everyone sat seperately,
leaving Chamille sitting by herself, and the leader of the group didn't
gather everyone up to do introductions or any other group cohesive
thing.

I called the library and told them what happened and how dissappointed
we were that a leader at the library would allow for any kid to feel
left out in a group dynamic and start a meetup without at least informal
friendly introductions. It was set up like a classroom, the leader
standing in front and all the kids sitting there listening. They
assured me that they'd talk with the leader of the group, did so, and
got back to me to let me know that they'd be doing introductions and
more casual friendliness at the next meetup. However, Chamille refused
to go again because the first experience was so yucky for her, after she
had bravely got up the nerve to jump into a potential social situation.

There was no amount of convincing her that it would be different the
next time, that made her want to give it another go. In general with
these sorts of things, the person leading the group is a volunteer,
generously giving of their time wether they know what they are doing or
not, so I've always figured that feedback was important. It never
gauranteed that my kids would give it another chance, but knowing that I
was trying to help the situation be better, has always helped them feel
better, especially for Chamille because she cares about people and was
happy that it wouldn't happen to another kid like her.

Jenny C

> well, she did stay for the whole 2 hours. i agree the that the people
who show up might vary from month to month, and her original intention
*was* to meet other kids interested in writing, but that just did not
seem to be the case to her, at least that one evening. she may agree to
give it another try, although i think at this point she tends to enjoy
the company of older teens and adults more than younger or same age
teens, which is what this group appeared to be comprised of...
>
>


This has been true for Chamille too! Something that I've had to let go,
is the idea of giving it another go, because, in general, Chamille gets
a really good feel for the situation and sizing it up and knows almost
immediately wether or not she'll like something based on the initial
sense for it. If she's unsure, she'll continue until she knows. It's
been hugely frustrating at times for me, because I'm accustomed to
sticking something through, even if I don't initially like it. Chamille
is just so not that way and everything I set up for her, I do so knowing
that she may want to back out after the first time. The absolute
exception to that has been the haunted house thing, even though, she
really made no lasting social contacts which we were hoping for. She
would go again in a heart beat tomorrow with or without time to do her
hair first!

Pamela Sorooshian

On Dec 13, 2008, at 12:30 PM, Miriam Mason wrote:

> Perhaps there was more read into her post than she ever intended?
> Perhaps it was a miscommunication? Perhaps she didn't word it
> properly?
> Or there was a misunderstanding of what she was seeking?


Even looking at how we miscommunicate or are misunderstood can be
really helpful to us.

LIke I said, I didn't say anything the first time, but there was a
second post that gave the same impression. So - what I said was, as
quoted, "You sound like people I know who aren't really looking for
solutions,..." The reason I worded it that way was because that had
NOT been the impression I had from other posts, but in those TWO
posts, that's how it sounded. So I said she might want to examine that
in herself. None of us is perfect - we have our "issues" - our hot
spots - our blind spots. I suggested she consider it and I still
think, upon rereading those posts, that might be something to consider.

I don't see the need for a response to that which defends Lyla in any
way - this comment was in no way at all a comment on what kind of
person she is, it was pointing out what she was sounding like in those
two posts as being something worth looking at.

Are we not all here to try to be better? Sometimes people will post
things that we don't feel great about hearing, sometimes they'll touch
on something we didn't expect to be so tender about, sometimes people
will be way off-base and we'll shake our heads and wonder how they
possibly got THAT out of what we said. It's all in the interest of
helping each other out.

<<Perhaps there was more read into her post than she ever intended?
Perhaps it was a miscommunication? Perhaps she didn't word it properly?
Or there was a misunderstanding of what she was seeking?>>

When I first read her post, my thoughts were "wow, what a great post for
this list".

It was. And it got a lot of good responses and I'm sure a lot of
people got good ideas from it. But none of the ideas seemed to be
useful to Lyla, really.

Was it not a bit of valuable piece of information she was seeking
from those further on in the journey than herself?

Did you mistake my comments as complaints about her post? Not at all.
Great post - it got feedback that was probably very useful to others,
but it didn't seem that Lyla was getting what she was hoping for.

<< I was very surprised at the above response, particularly as I know
her. >>

I wonder if those two posts reflected some deeper-than-usual
frustration with this one issue - that would possibly explain
uncharacteristic negativity.

<<Perhaps tough love is a good thing, in some regards.>>

"Tough love" is a specific kind of parenting that I would NEVER ever
want to be associated with. But sometimes hearing the perspective of
someone who doesn't know you at all, is responding entirely to what
you say in a post, is surprising and at least worth thinking about.
Like Sandra mentioned, sometimes we say more in a post than we intend
to say. Sometimes strangers will see underlying stuff that those who
know us overlook.

<<Just wanted to put that out there. Don't mean to open up wounds, or
anything, or criticize anyone on the list. Just to publicly affirm
someone who I respect, admire and cherish.>>

If Lyla had her feelings hurt, then I'm really really sorry. I didn't
get the feeling that she would - I thought she'd think about how she
was thinking about the issue and that it might give her a way to shift
her thinking into a new direction.

<<And believe me, Lyla started examining that possibility in herself the
moment she read the above response. :/ Thing is, she's not like
that.>>

Ummm - she was like that in those posts. So - it wasn't typical of
her. And I imagine she doesn't want to be like that. So why did it
come across that way in those posts? Not a real question that you
need to answer here - something for her - and maybe others - to
consider.

-pam