Keti Carazo

Hi, my name is Keti and I've been reading on this list for several
months now at the suggestion of a good friend who has unschooled for
many years. I enjoy reading and learning and hearing the multiple
perspectives shared here. I have two kids: ds is 17 and dd is 12.
We have attended two L&L conferences. The kids have been home for
three plus years and we have been walking the path of unschooling for
about a year and a half, enjoying life and watching everyone thrive.

I really need some perspective on a difficult long-standing
situation. It relates to my dd's best friend, A, a girl she met in
third grade. A is a cool kid and dd enjoys the relationship. She's
in school and her family is very entrenched in the "culture of
school" to the point where they view it as the one and ONLY way. The
mom has never overtly said she disapproves of how my kids are getting
an education, nor has she ever asked what we do, however, there is a
clear feeling of judgment and disapproval coming from her.
Consequently, we have distanced ourselves from the family socially
while allowing my dd and A to continue their friendship. A is
completely controlled by her Mom. She's overweight and they control
her food and drink. Couple of years ago the Mom and I had a
conversation around the "weight problem" and she acknowledged that
she herself has major food issues. I suggested then that perhaps
some counseling for the Mom would be an option. She seemed open to
that idea, said she had already considered it, etc. But, then the
wall of denial came up and nothing ever happened … the simply
continued controlling A. Time passed. I could see that they were
not committed to doing anything different and began to distance
myself from them. A has a lot of health problems … earlier this year
they thought it was asthma, but instead it seems to have been anxiety
attacks at … school. No surprise there. All that said, here's my
problem.

When A spends time at our house, we let her eat and drink what she
wants. Consequently, they don't want A to be at our house. So, the
only way my daughter can spend time with A is at their house. I'm
uncomfortable with the arrangement … they require the kids to jump on
the trampoline after eating and other ridiculous things. They also
don't feed my daughter enough food (and apple or a cereal bar is
considered lunch). She comes home with low blood sugar and extremely
irritated. My daughter doesn't mind the forced "exercise" but she
doesn't like what they are willing to feed her. If she sleeps over,
I usually give her a few protein bars so she has SOMETHING to eat,
which helps. As an inside joke, my dd and I call their
home "starvation house." She's willing to tolerate this behavior so
she can see her friend. It's so incredibly sad and heartbreaking.
In the past, I've discussed with the mom that my daughter is a
growing girl and she eats a LOT of food and needs it while her body
is developing and that she's been hungry at their house. Still,
nothing changes. Sometimes they "forget" to feed the girls. The
girls get together much less frequently and the sleepovers are even
more rare, namely because A always has homework to do.

I have been actively seeking outlets for my daughter to meet new
friends for the last two years. I started a local unschooling group
and we joined a local co-op. Both of these are new ventures and
she's not met any girls around her age. We talk about the situation
quite a bit and my daughter struggles with A and her limitations. We
both very much want for her to develop friends with other unschooled
or relaxed homeschooled kids. Just hasn't happened yet. My dd has
talked about getting back into dance classes and I'm optimistic that
will give her some exposure to new girls to befriend. We'll probably
start this in January.

Given this background, is it worth it for me to, either verbally or
in writing, broach the subject of controls again (e.g., where is
affects me and my daughter, like the trampoline or going hungry) with
the Mom?

I'd like to tell her how disrespectful it is to constantly call A
when she's out with us and ask her what she ate, where she is, what
she's doing, etc. This happened twice last night in a three hour
period – it was a very rare occasion when A came to dinner with us.
I think the girls are good enough friends that they won't grow apart
anytime soon, so these situations will continue to come up. I'm very
tired of saying or doing nothing … it's a constant source of
frustration and bad feelings for both me and my daughter. My
daughter is afraid that if I say something, the mom won't be able to
handle it and will not allow A to spend time with her at all. I
seriously need suggestions on either how to speak up to the mom (and
not care about the outcome) and/or how to deal with my overwhelming
feelings and find workarounds to specific situations.

Kindly,
Keti

Sandra Dodd

-=-Given this background, is it worth it for me to, either verbally or
in writing, broach the subject of controls again (e.g., where is
affects me and my daughter, like the trampoline or going hungry) with
the Mom?-=-

I wouldn't.

Maybe you could call after a couple of hours and say "Did you
remember to feed the girls? I heard you forgot once..." :-)

Or just make sure your daughter eats before she goes, and have some
food available when she gets back, or take some with you when you go
to pick her up or something.

-=-I'd like to tell her how disrespectful it is to constantly call A
when she's out with us and ask her what she ate, where she is, what
she's doing, etc.-=-

Could you be gone? What about making the next few visits something
like museums or parks or something active (walking at least)? It
could involve a little food but not involve your whole house full of
food.

-=-I'm very tired of saying or doing nothing � it's a constant source
of frustration and bad feelings for both me and my daughter. -=-

You can't change the mom, but you can change the circumstances. Her
house and yours are both problematical. Find other places. Hike the
mall. Go to the movies.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lauren

--- In [email protected], "Keti Carazo" <keti@...> wrote:
> They also
> don't feed my daughter enough food (and apple or a cereal bar is
> considered lunch). She comes home with low blood sugar and extremely
> irritated. My daughter doesn't mind the forced "exercise" but she
> doesn't like what they are willing to feed her.

Could you pack meals and snacks for your daughter when she goes? Like a bag lunch?
And, if they have rules like 'no candy' etc, maybe try to respect those, while sending (more
than) enough food for your dd? I think it would be totally understandable for you to say,
"My dd needs to eat a certain amount of food to maintain her blood sugar levels, so I'm
sending meals along with her to be sure she eats enough. She can eat as much of this as
she wants in addition to any food you provide for her."

With the strong controls in the home, I might even label the meals/snacks (ie: lunch,
afternoon snack, dinner, etc.) so that they don't withhold anything from your dd until a
later time if they think it's too much food...

HTH!

Lauren :)

Pamela Sorooshian

Or maybe label it with a "permission slip" - "My daughter,
___________, has permission to eat as little or as much of this food
as she desires at any time she chooses."

-pam


On Nov 30, 2008, at 9:28 PM, Lauren wrote:

> With the strong controls in the home, I might even label the meals/
> snacks (ie: lunch,
> afternoon snack, dinner, etc.) so that they don't withhold anything
> from your dd until a
> later time if they think it's too much food...

Sandra Dodd

-=-Or maybe label it with a "permission slip" - "My daughter,
___________, has permission to eat as little or as much of this food
as she desires at any time she chooses."-=-

That might be a good way to break up the situation, though. The mom
will take it as an affront, and it will be the source of contention.
She would probably see it as a social slap at her daughter's weight,
and not at her parenting. Like the visiting girl "can eat all she
wants" but her daughter "can't."



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

> Could you pack meals and snacks for your daughter when she goes? Like
a bag lunch?
> And, if they have rules like 'no candy' etc, maybe try to respect
those, while sending (more
> than) enough food for your dd? I think it would be totally
understandable for you to say,
> "My dd needs to eat a certain amount of food to maintain her blood
sugar levels, so I'm
> sending meals along with her to be sure she eats enough. She can eat
as much of this as
> she wants in addition to any food you provide for her."
>


I was going to suggest sending a bag of food along, however if it were
my daughter, going over to a food control house, I might tell her to
keep her food in her bag and eat it privately in the bedroom away from
prying eyes, or after parents go to bed. I wouldn't even tell the mom
about the extra food.

If the food is found out and the mom gets mad about it, you can tell her
straight up that you wanted to make sure that your daughter had enough
food, since she tends to come home hungry and cranky from lack of food.
Then, the other mom can either provide more food for your daughter on
the next visit, or encounter uncrolled food entering her house.

I don't know if that is the right thing to do or not, just what I would
do in the same scenario.

Jenny C

> I have been actively seeking outlets for my daughter to meet new
> friends for the last two years. I started a local unschooling group
> and we joined a local co-op. Both of these are new ventures and
> she's not met any girls around her age. We talk about the situation
> quite a bit and my daughter struggles with A and her limitations. We
> both very much want for her to develop friends with other unschooled
> or relaxed homeschooled kids. Just hasn't happened yet. My dd has
> talked about getting back into dance classes and I'm optimistic that
> will give her some exposure to new girls to befriend. We'll probably
> start this in January.

We went through this exact same scenario, only different controls with
the best friend family. We did all of the things you are talking about
here. None of it worked really, but the act of helping, helped. So,
don't stop trying to find other things to do and other people to meet in
the meantime.

> Given this background, is it worth it for me to, either verbally or
> in writing, broach the subject of controls again (e.g., where is
> affects me and my daughter, like the trampoline or going hungry) with
> the Mom?

I wouldn't. I was forced into a situation that I couldn't avoid with
the parent of the best friend of my daughter, otherwise, I would've let
it go. The dad called to discuss an "issue" in regards to our
daughters, and wanted to discuss it among the parents first. He was
confrontational, and I figured right then and there, we would lose,
because he wasn't trying to find a workable solution, so, since I knew I
had nothing to lose anyway, I spoke my mind. It gave him the excuse he
needed to do what he wanted to do, but I made it clear to both the girls
that none of it was coming from me, and since they are smart kids, they
already knew that.

That was about a year and a half ago. That friend hates her father.
Her daily life is hell. Chamille knows her life is better and while she
still loves that friend a great deal, she's not desperate anymore
because her life IS good. Now that she's been able to hang out a bit
more with that friend, she sees how all that control has deeply impacted
this friend, to such an extent that it has an impact on their
relationship and how they deal with each other.


> I'd like to tell her how disrespectful it is to constantly call A
> when she's out with us and ask her what she ate, where she is, what
> she's doing, etc. This happened twice last night in a three hour
> period – it was a very rare occasion when A came to dinner with
us.

I wouldn't answer the phone. In general social ettiquette, it's rude to
answer the phone during a meal anyway. Unless the daughter has a cell
phone, you are under no obligation to answer your phone to this mom.
You can listen to her voicemail and call her back a bit later. Tell her
you guys were busy and didn't hear the phone, then put your phone on
vibrate, if it's a cell, and turn the ringer off if it's a landline.


> I think the girls are good enough friends that they won't grow apart
> anytime soon, so these situations will continue to come up. I'm very
> tired of saying or doing nothing … it's a constant source of
> frustration and bad feelings for both me and my daughter. My
> daughter is afraid that if I say something, the mom won't be able to
> handle it and will not allow A to spend time with her at all.

Your daughter is right, don't say anything more to this mom. Your
daughter is 12 and I assume her friend is too. That is an age,
especially if they are in school, where they change friends a lot and
find social niches that are comfortable. They may grow apart simply
because of that aspect alone. It may not seem as if they will, but in a
year, at that age, kids change a lot and really fast.

I know exactly how you are feeling. I took a while to respond to this
email, simply because I really can feel your pain, we've been there!
When I was trying to find answers for us, people suggested doing things,
getting out, changing the focus. The focus was really wanting to be
with that friend and nothing else would do, so it was hard and my
daughter was uncooperative about it, pining for her friend.

Hindsight, though, I really believe that getting out with a little force
helped a lot. It was hard to push her, but it can be done in little
ways and lots of encouragement. Letting my daughter react how she
wanted, be who she wanted to be, encouraging her other intersts, all
helped in small ways.

It will pass. Be patient and gentle and kind to your daughter and your
daughter's friend. You do have the advantage that you guys can still
see this friend, don't do anything to change that. If you lose contact,
all of you guys lose, especially the other girl who won't have anywhere
to escape from the yucky controlling existence at her own home. That
was the worst part for us, the dad routinely grounded his daughter from
my daughter, still does, but the initial really bad grounding lasted
months. When we were finally able to circumvent that by getting in
contact with the mom who has visits on the weekends, things changed a
little because the dad realized he couldn't control everything. He
couldn't keep his daughter from seeing her friend, and the grounding
didn't count as much or last as long.

Chamille also decided that she wasn't ok with going over to her friend's
house. For a while she put up with the yucky atmosphere to be with her
friend. It got to the point where she couldn't and wouldn't tolerate
being around a complete jerk, even if it was to see her friend. That
worked in her favor too. It also helps that I'm willing to do ALL the
driving and pay for things, it took away the first front of excuses for
saying "no" to invites. And, last, but not least, since the dad and I
aren't on speaking terms, my husband will call and negotiate for the
girls. Since my husband wasn't involved in the confrontation, and he's
a man, he carries more weight in that dynamic. (yes on top of all of
this, the guy is a sexist and bigotted person)

Sandra Dodd

-=-I wouldn't answer the phone. In general social ettiquette, it's
rude to
answer the phone during a meal anyway. Unless the daughter has a cell
phone, you are under no obligation to answer your phone to this mom.
You can listen to her voicemail and call her back a bit later. Tell her
you guys were busy and didn't hear the phone, then put your phone on
vibrate, if it's a cell, and turn the ringer off if it's a landline.-=-

I wouldn't want my children with someone who was willing to lie to
me. And if my child is away from me, I'd like to be able to call.
Then again, I didn't abuse it, but still... to have someone else's
child and make oneself unavailable is bad. And to leave a child with
me and make oneself unavailable for very long is bad too. I've been
on both sides of that (not someone purposely not answering a phone,
but from disorganization or forgetting to turn a phone one) and I
don't think it's a good idea.

-=-When we were finally able to circumvent that by getting in contact
with the mom who has visits on the weekends, things changed a little
because the dad realized he couldn't control everything. -=-

From the other side too, give up the idea of controlling or changing
the other family. Look to helping your own child have the contact
she wants to have, knowing it won't be ideal.

And another point is not to idealize the relationship and project it
into the future. Jenny C made the point that 12 year olds change
friends even under all kinds of circumstances, so if this blows to
the point that the girls can't visit for a while, and if it turns
into forever, don't blame her parents so hard that it will seem to
her that they ruined a perfect lifelong friendship. I had two VERY,
very close friends when I was 9-12, and 14-17. I'm still slightly in
contact with them (funerals and that) but our adult lives are very
different. The relationships were rich and full and good when we
were girls. I was enriched from knowing their families and I saw
flaws in their parents' relationship that were different from my own
parents, and I saw how the rules and discipline in their families
were different from mine (one more gentle and creative, one just
secretive and mean), and that made me a better daughter and
eventually a better mom.

Sandra



Sandra






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Margaret

I don't think you can change their limits and if you try, you may end
up making it hard for the girls to spend time together. It sounds
like that is not what your daughter wants at all so I would stay away
from that completely. Your protein bar solution seems to be working
pretty well for visits over there and I would probably leave it at
that. Send even more food, if your daughter needs it.

From what you described, I think that having limited food for the
girls (limited to what is generally considered healthy) at YOUR house
would be preferable to the full on crazy controls and limits at their
house. If you agree only to feed certain types of food, would her
mom be OK with visits to your house again? I am not saying you
should force your daughter to do this... more that you would get her
on board with the idea that if your family jumps through some hoops,
her friend can visit you again and that would be more pleasant over
all.

I like the idea of taking the kids out too, but I think that food will
come up there too. You go to the mall and the girls want something to
eat... but the food for sale there will probably be even less
acceptable to them than the food you have at home. You take them to a
movie and your daughter wants popcorn and a soda. If they are
anywhere together longer than an hour or two, food will come up. I
think I would just try to find a way to support their friendship and
your daughter as well as you can in less than ideal circumstances.
Limiting food at home during visits might be the best way to do
that... and at least then they are with you, not the controlling mom.

We had something sort of like this come up with a friend of my
daughter's who has very limited TV access and it just seems to work
best to stay within her mom's limits. My daughter would rather have
her friend over with the TV off most of the time than not see her
friend.

Margaret


On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 9:02 AM, Keti Carazo <keti@...> wrote:
> Hi, my name is Keti and I've been reading on this list for several
> months now at the suggestion of a good friend who has unschooled for
> many years. I enjoy reading and learning and hearing the multiple
> perspectives shared here. I have two kids: ds is 17 and dd is 12.
> We have attended two L&L conferences. The kids have been home for
> three plus years and we have been walking the path of unschooling for
> about a year and a half, enjoying life and watching everyone thrive.
>
> I really need some perspective on a difficult long-standing
> situation. It relates to my dd's best friend, A, a girl she met in
> third grade. A is a cool kid and dd enjoys the relationship. She's
> in school and her family is very entrenched in the "culture of
> school" to the point where they view it as the one and ONLY way. The
> mom has never overtly said she disapproves of how my kids are getting
> an education, nor has she ever asked what we do, however, there is a
> clear feeling of judgment and disapproval coming from her.
> Consequently, we have distanced ourselves from the family socially
> while allowing my dd and A to continue their friendship. A is
> completely controlled by her Mom. She's overweight and they control
> her food and drink. Couple of years ago the Mom and I had a
> conversation around the "weight problem" and she acknowledged that
> she herself has major food issues. I suggested then that perhaps
> some counseling for the Mom would be an option. She seemed open to
> that idea, said she had already considered it, etc. But, then the
> wall of denial came up and nothing ever happened … the simply
> continued controlling A. Time passed. I could see that they were
> not committed to doing anything different and began to distance
> myself from them. A has a lot of health problems … earlier this year
> they thought it was asthma, but instead it seems to have been anxiety
> attacks at … school. No surprise there. All that said, here's my
> problem.
>
> When A spends time at our house, we let her eat and drink what she
> wants. Consequently, they don't want A to be at our house. So, the
> only way my daughter can spend time with A is at their house. I'm
> uncomfortable with the arrangement … they require the kids to jump on
> the trampoline after eating and other ridiculous things. They also
> don't feed my daughter enough food (and apple or a cereal bar is
> considered lunch). She comes home with low blood sugar and extremely
> irritated. My daughter doesn't mind the forced "exercise" but she
> doesn't like what they are willing to feed her. If she sleeps over,
> I usually give her a few protein bars so she has SOMETHING to eat,
> which helps. As an inside joke, my dd and I call their
> home "starvation house." She's willing to tolerate this behavior so
> she can see her friend. It's so incredibly sad and heartbreaking.
> In the past, I've discussed with the mom that my daughter is a
> growing girl and she eats a LOT of food and needs it while her body
> is developing and that she's been hungry at their house. Still,
> nothing changes. Sometimes they "forget" to feed the girls. The
> girls get together much less frequently and the sleepovers are even
> more rare, namely because A always has homework to do.
>
> I have been actively seeking outlets for my daughter to meet new
> friends for the last two years. I started a local unschooling group
> and we joined a local co-op. Both of these are new ventures and
> she's not met any girls around her age. We talk about the situation
> quite a bit and my daughter struggles with A and her limitations. We
> both very much want for her to develop friends with other unschooled
> or relaxed homeschooled kids. Just hasn't happened yet. My dd has
> talked about getting back into dance classes and I'm optimistic that
> will give her some exposure to new girls to befriend. We'll probably
> start this in January.
>
> Given this background, is it worth it for me to, either verbally or
> in writing, broach the subject of controls again (e.g., where is
> affects me and my daughter, like the trampoline or going hungry) with
> the Mom?
>
> I'd like to tell her how disrespectful it is to constantly call A
> when she's out with us and ask her what she ate, where she is, what
> she's doing, etc. This happened twice last night in a three hour
> period – it was a very rare occasion when A came to dinner with us.
> I think the girls are good enough friends that they won't grow apart
> anytime soon, so these situations will continue to come up. I'm very
> tired of saying or doing nothing … it's a constant source of
> frustration and bad feelings for both me and my daughter. My
> daughter is afraid that if I say something, the mom won't be able to
> handle it and will not allow A to spend time with her at all. I
> seriously need suggestions on either how to speak up to the mom (and
> not care about the outcome) and/or how to deal with my overwhelming
> feelings and find workarounds to specific situations.
>
> Kindly,
> Keti
>
>

Keti Carazo

--- In [email protected], "Jenny C" <jenstarc4@...>
wrote:

> > Could you pack meals and snacks for your daughter when she goes?
Like a bag lunch?
>

Generally, if I know my dd will be at their house for more than two
hours, I send her with an energy bar and some fruit - something she
can eat in a bedroom or playroom without the mom noticing. I hadn't
considered sending a whole bag lunch, but it's an interesting idea.
I've never asked my dd when and where she eats the snacks I provide,
but I will. She does eat them, and sometimes A does, too. I may try
the bag lunch idea the next time I know she'll spend an afternoon
there.


> I wouldn't even tell the mom about the extra food. If the food is
found out and the mom gets mad about it, you can tell her straight up
that you wanted to make sure that your daughter had enough food,
since she tends to come home hungry and cranky from lack of food.
>

I'd have no problem doing this ... in fact, I have on occasion called
their home and asked if my dd was feeling okay and had enough to
eat. The mom knows my dd gets low blood sugar and needs food - we
have discussed her food needs several times.

Thanks to all who have responded!! I'm feeling better just listening
to your input.

Keti

Keti Carazo

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>> I wouldn't want my children with someone who was willing to lie to
> me. And if my child is away from me, I'd like to be able to all.
> Then again, I didn't abuse it, but still... to have someone else's
> child and make oneself unavailable is bad. And to leave a child
withme and make oneself unavailable for very long is bad too. I've
been on both sides of that (not someone purposely not answering a
phone, but from disorganization or forgetting to turn a phone one)
and I don't think it's a good idea.
>>

I'm sorry I was not clear in my origial post about the intrusive
phone calls ... the Mom was calling her dd on her cell phone and not
calling my cell phone. So, we were all sitting at dinner when the mom
called A and asked her what she was eating. I felt disturbed, but
didn't make any comment and acted like it didn't happen for the sake
of everyone at the table. If the mom couldn't reach her dd (no signal
or some other reason), I'm certain she would call me and I would
answer the call for the reasons you stated. I DO want the mom to
trust me and allow her dd to do things with us and at our home. I
feel like we are A's only safe haven.

> And another point is not to idealize the relationship and project
it
> into the future. Jenny C made the point that 12 year olds change
> friends even under all kinds of circumstances, so if this blows to
> the point that the girls can't visit for a while, and if it turns
> into forever, don't blame her parents so hard that it will seem to
> her that they ruined a perfect lifelong friendship.

Yes, this is a comforting thought, knowing both girls will change a
lot over the next couple of years and to just be patient. My daughter
is already outgrowing A on some levels, which is what's kept me from
wanting to intervene or do anything that would disrupt with natural
progression.

>I was enriched from knowing their families and I saw flaws in their
>parents' relationship that were different from my own parents, and I
>saw how the rules and discipline in their families were different
>from mine (one more gentle and creative, one just secretive and
>mean), and that made me a better daughter and eventually a better
mom.
>

Ah, this is a really insightful point! Since my dd and I talk openly
about A's circumstances and issues, how and why we are different, I
agree there is a lot my daughter is learning from this experience.

Thanks again for all the repsonses!
Keti

Keti Carazo

--- In [email protected], "Jenny C" <jenstarc4@...>
wrote:
> We went through this exact same scenario, only different controls
with the best friend family. We did all of the things you are
talking about here. None of it worked really, but the act of
helping, helped. So, don't stop trying to find other things to do
and other people to meet in the meantime.
>

Jenny, thanks for sharing your experience. The encouragement is
comforting! I liked they way you said that - "the act of helping,
helped." I'm trying hard to expand my dd's opportinities for social
connections through her interests and I think, down the road, it will
help her feel more independent of this best friend.


>> I wouldn't. I was forced into a situation that I couldn't avoid
with the parent of the best friend of my daughter, otherwise, I
would've let it go.
>>

I agree with you and Sandra that nothing positive would be
accomplished by a confrontation with the mom - it would just create
bad feelings and complicate an already difficult situation.


>Now that she's been able to hang out a bit
> more with that friend, she sees how all that control has deeply
>impacted this friend, to such an extent that it has an impact on
their relationship and how they deal with each other.
>

I'd like to know what you mean by the last part. Can you give an
example as to how they deal with each other? My dd feels she can't
talk to A about the food and control stuff (maybe they are still too
young to identify/verbalize stuff like that?). I see A starting a
lot of attention-seeking behaviors and worry about her future. A has
not made any close friends besides my dd.

> Your daughter is right, don't say anything more to this mom. Your
> daughter is 12 and I assume her friend is too. That is an age,
> especially if they are in school, where they change friends a lot
>and find social niches that are comfortable. They may grow apart
>simply because of that aspect alone. It may not seem as if they
>will, but in a year, at that age, kids change a lot and really fast.

My daughter usually is right! Yes, they are both 12 and will turn 13
in March/May next year. I'll try to remind myself of this when I get
bogged down in the Mom's controlling behaviours.

> When I was trying to find answers for us, people suggested doing
>things, getting out, changing the focus. The focus was really
>wanting to be with that friend and nothing else would do, so it was
>hard and my daughter was uncooperative about it, pining for her
>friend.

I've considered Sandra's suggestion to get the girls out doing things
not at home, however, the Mom is reluctant to allow this. That is,
she's fine taking my dd places, but doesn't like me taking her dd
anywhere. My dd likes to be at their house because they have lots of
cool stuff. The reason A doesn't spend the night with us anymore is
because of her "allergies." I'm not sure if that's real or something
her Mom made up. My dd really misses A because she's so unavailable
with school and homework.

> Hindsight, though, I really believe that getting out with a little
>force helped a lot. It was hard to push her, but it can be done in
>little ways and lots of encouragement.

Dd is enjoying our unschooling group and the co-op, which hasn't
produced any new best friends, but does give her lots of social
interaction and things to talk about. It's helping.

> It will pass. Be patient and gentle and kind to your daughter and
>your daughter's friend. You do have the advantage that you guys can
>still see this friend, don't do anything to change that. If you
>lose contact,all of you guys lose, especially the other girl who
>won't have anywhere to escape from the yucky controlling existence
>at her own home.

Thanks, I need the reminder. I'm doing okay ... mostly I struggle
with the damage the mom is doing to her dd.

> Chamille also decided that she wasn't ok with going over to her
>friend's house. For a while she put up with the yucky atmosphere to
>be with her friend. It got to the point where she couldn't and
>wouldn't tolerate being around a complete jerk, even if it was to
>see her friend. That worked in her favor too. It also helps that
>I'm willing to do ALL the driving and pay for things, it took away
>the first front of excuses for saying "no" to invites.

I'm glad you shared this ... it's interesting what kids choose over
time. I suspect A will want to get away from her parents more and
more and if she spends more time with us, it will work to the girls
advantage. I'll try to find ways to make that more attractive to
everyone. :)

Keti

Keti Carazo

--- In [email protected], Margaret <margaretz@...> wrote:
>
> From what you described, I think that having limited food for the
> girls (limited to what is generally considered healthy) at YOUR
>house
> would be preferable to the full on crazy controls and limits at
their
> house. If you agree only to feed certain types of food, would her
> mom be OK with visits to your house again?

I've always had generally healthy food and comfort food readily
available, but not huge amounts of junk food. My kids usually ask me
to make them stuff. It's funny because I buy mostly organic and whole
foods and do a fair amount of cooking, but nothing especially fancy
or rich. I make simple stuff without many processed ingredients. I
don't believe artificial sweetners and low fat/no fat stuff are
healthy, so I don't buy it. They don't seem to feed their dd all day
and then have a "normal" dinner. They have never asked me to not
feed their dd, but they always interrogate her as to what she ate and
how much (by phone) at regualr intervals. There have been several
notable incidents where the Mom tried to control what dd would eat -
once at a party I had at my home. She brought juice for A to drink
despite the fact that I had juice on hand. The goal, I concluded, was
to prevent her from drinking soda, something A loves. Didn't work.
And almost escalated into a scene. Another incident involved A eating
a few pieces of hard candy at my house and the Mom freaked out (yes,
yelling and screaming and out of control) in my home in front of me
and the girls. At the time, I was too shocked to respond. And after,
I had no clue what to say. That was the last straw for me and the
point where I started distancing myself from her. That was about
eight months ago.

The whole idea of asking A's mom what I'm "allowed" to feed her in my
home is distasteful to me. I need to think on this some more ...
whether I'd be willing to do this to make it easier for A to be here.

> I
> think I would just try to find a way to support their friendship and
> your daughter as well as you can in less than ideal circumstances.
> Limiting food at home during visits might be the best way to do
> that... and at least then they are with you, not the controlling
mom.
>

What happens when A asks for something not on the "approved" list?
This creates a whole new set of moral and ethical questions. Yes, I
could just stick to the mom's wishes and tell her that, but how would
she feel? I would feel horrible. I'm having trouble seeing a this as
a solution. TV would definitely be easier!!

Keti

Sandra Dodd

-=-The reason A doesn't spend the night with us anymore is
because of her "allergies." I'm not sure if that's real or something
her Mom made up. My dd really misses A because she's so unavailable
with school and homework.-=-

Rather than clinging to that relationship, or encouraging your
daughter to cling to it or have great hopes, maybe focus time and
energy in other directions. During winter break maybe the girls can
visit. Then Easter. Then summer. But with homework and school
being factors, this will get worse before it gets better.

From your accounts, it sounds like it would be a huge problem even
if they were both homeschooled or if they were both in school.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-The whole idea of asking A's mom what I'm "allowed" to feed her in my
home is distasteful to me. I need to think on this some more ...
whether I'd be willing to do this to make it easier for A to be here.-=-

You're putting negotations and rules ahead of principles. You
already know what the other mom wants. You can do it or not do it,
but all the fretting and writing and worrying about what you should
think about asking about what you're allowed.... It's spinning your
wheels.

If your daughter wants to play, do the things you know will make that
smoother and easier without trying to manipulate and dodge and stress.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn L. Coburn

We have visitors who have food restrictions and often seem to be hungry when
they arrive, although I know they have lots of good food at their meals. If
the kids start asking for foods that seem iffy, I am lucky enough that
generally I can ask them to check in with their mother across the courtyard
whether it is ok. Again I have been lucky because usually it has been fine,
and I think it gives the other mom reassurance - especially since her son
has said in the past that he isn't supposed to eat some sweet thing or other
but intended to sneak it at our house and lie about it at home. I told him I
wasn't comfortable with that, and that I wanted his mom to be comfortable
too. On the other hand Jayn has her basket of candy and chocolates from
Halloween and seems to be frequently distributing them to the kids, and I
have a feeling that the mom might disapprove if she saw the volume - but it
is kinda under my radar and in passing, while not being a covert operation.

There have been times when I have called a mom to check about a range of
foods just to be sure, but that was mostly when both Jayn and her friends
were younger. The older they all get, the more I adopt the policy of asking
visitors what they would like. It is amazing to me that adults are trying to
control the food intake of a 12 year old who is out and about in the world.
What a way to make exercise despised by the kid!

The other idea I had if the cache of protein bars practice ends up failing
might be to discuss the food issue for your own daughter from the point of
view of low blood sugar as a medical condition. I don't know if your own
doctor has made any recommendations about the frequency or caloric level for
your daughter that you could then pass on with the authority of medical
experts behind it. Or perhaps slightly vaguer "We've learnt that it's very
important for dd to avoid hypoglycemia so I'm sending her over with a snack
bag of approved foods for her to eat when she feels her blood sugar level
slipping." You don't necessarily need to say that you have learned it from
observation or that you are the food approver.

Jayn comes home with stories of the practices in other homes that she
clearly thinks are head shakingly odd. For example one mom only puts about
an inch of liquid in her kid's glasses and according to Jayn they can't ask
for more. I think it is because the kids are clumsy (I know this from
observation at our house) and she is trying to avoid endless spillage clean
up. But to Jayn it has translated into not being allowed to ask for more
(shades of Oliver). To me the whole thing could be avoided by using a lidded
cup with a straw, which is what I do.

With the help of people here I am learning to trust that Jayn will be ok
even if she occasionally goes into a poor environment, and from my own
experience I know I absolutely can't control another mom and it is futile to
try, regardless of how much sense I might be making. If Jayn is willing to
put up with nonsense for the sake of spending time with friends, then she
will be alright, and perhaps eventually she will decide that it's too much
trouble to be worth it. I know that it is hard when crankiness and bad mood
and unpleasant stress releasing behaviors are then brought home, but I like
the suggestion of having food in the car. Perhaps you could even make a
special time of going out to eat together right away or go for a walk (too
old for the park??) after a snack. James and Jayn have a special place they
go to, a taco joint near us, that has been a good way to dispel hunger
induced grumpiness.



Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com

Sandra Dodd

-=-It is amazing to me that adults are trying to
control the food intake of a 12 year old who is out and about in the
world.-=-

Keith's mother still tries, and he's 52. She used to critique our
fridge, and she nearly always says something when we're at a
restaurant or eating at her house.

-=-James and Jayn have a special place they
go to, a taco joint near us, that has been a good way to dispel hunger
induced grumpiness.-=-

Over the years, and as the kids have gotten older so I'm not so
frazzled, I have less need for "OH MY GOSH I HAVEN'T EATEN!" food,
but there's a burger king near where Kirby used to work. All my
relatives and several of my friends knew the medicinal value of a
quick fish sandwich when I was starting to look or sound volatile.

Sandra

Jenny C

> >Now that she's been able to hang out a bit
> > more with that friend, she sees how all that control has deeply
> >impacted this friend, to such an extent that it has an impact on
> their relationship and how they deal with each other.
> >
>
> I'd like to know what you mean by the last part. Can you give an
> example as to how they deal with each other? My dd feels she can't
> talk to A about the food and control stuff (maybe they are still too
> young to identify/verbalize stuff like that?). I see A starting a
> lot of attention-seeking behaviors and worry about her future. A has
> not made any close friends besides my dd.

A lot of the way that my daughter's friend has learned to behave is
reactionary. She doesn't think clearly and logically about why she's
feeling a certain way and how that affects her behavior. I wouldn't
expect a kid that has grown up in dysfuntion to be able to figure that
out. One day she might, after she goes through some bad relationships,
or a death or some other trauma.

When Chamille says she doesn't want to do something, she has a pretty
good reason for it, her friend really doesn't understand that. In her
world, clearly all kids want to run around doing obnoxious attention
seeking rebellious things for fun. While Chamille finds some of it fun,
she knows there are boundaries that shouldn't be crossed and her friend
doesn't see them at all. The ONLY boundaries she sees are the ones that
will get her in trouble with dad. She knows her dad's triggers and if
he'll find out about things, or if there is a potential for finding out.
Everything else is ok to do, even though it really isn't for a lot of
reasons.


> I've considered Sandra's suggestion to get the girls out doing things
> not at home, however, the Mom is reluctant to allow this. That is,
> she's fine taking my dd places, but doesn't like me taking her dd
> anywhere.

Well you are the wild card in the deck. The mom is uncomfortable with
her daughter being in a situation that she has no control over.

The reason A doesn't spend the night with us anymore is
> because of her "allergies." I'm not sure if that's real or something
> her Mom made up. My dd really misses A because she's so unavailable
> with school and homework.

They are excuses. You know, the mom knows it, but you can't change it
or call her on it. We've heard them all too, well, not the allergy one.
That does make sense given the food control issues though. Allergies
can be used as a way to control food, I've seen it done, heck, it was
done to me as a kid.


> Thanks, I need the reminder. I'm doing okay ... mostly I struggle
> with the damage the mom is doing to her dd.

When Chamille was in tears over her friend, a lot of those tears were on
her friend's behalf more than her own unhappiness. She really cares
deeply for her friend and doesn't like to see her hurt.


> I'm glad you shared this ... it's interesting what kids choose over
> time. I suspect A will want to get away from her parents more and
> more and if she spends more time with us, it will work to the girls
> advantage. I'll try to find ways to make that more attractive to
> everyone. :)

If the other mom is willing anyway! One thing that we did sometimes,
was to invite the sister along. If we invited both girls, dad could
have uninterrupted video game playing time, and he wouldn't have to cook
dinner or make his kids do it. Sweeten the deal. You know more about
what will work with this person, and your daughter may have some good
ideas too.

Sandra Dodd

-=-When Chamille says she doesn't want to do something, she has a pretty
good reason for it, her friend really doesn't understand that. In her
world, clearly all kids want to run around doing obnoxious attention
seeking rebellious things for fun. While Chamille finds some of it fun,
she knows there are boundaries that shouldn't be crossed and her friend
doesn't see them at all. The ONLY boundaries she sees are the ones that
will get her in trouble with dad.-=-



Once when Holly told some kids she never got spankings, one said
excitedly "Then you could lie all the time!"

That girl felt like a winner when she lied and didn't get caught.

Holly had no reason to lie.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

> I wouldn't want my children with someone who was willing to lie to
> me. And if my child is away from me, I'd like to be able to call.
> Then again, I didn't abuse it, but still... to have someone else's
> child and make oneself unavailable is bad. And to leave a child with
> me and make oneself unavailable for very long is bad too.

I actually agree with this! I was thinking about the particular
scenario of having someone's child for 3 hrs and having the phone
interrupt our activities repeatedly for non-emergency stuff, just to
check in on the child's eating. If I were to turn off a phone to
eliminate disruptions, I would totally check it and messages to make
sure there were no emergencies.

The child in question has her own phone though. It's interesting to me
that the child potentially has a cell phone for the mom to control more.
I got Chamille a cell phone so that she could have more freedom, not
less, but then, my goal isn't to micro manage my kids!

Chamille's friend has a cell phone because the mom got tired of always
going through the dad to talk to her kids, so she put them on her phone
service and purchased phones for them. Now the dad, uses the phones as
a form of control and punishment to penalize both his kids and their
mother. He takes away the phone as a form of punishment, checks all the
texts and numbers and does formal interrogations about all of them.
This poor kid has to make sure that everything gets erased right after
she uses her phone each and everytime, just in case. When she is over
and using her phone, I sometimes remind her to delete her stuff on the
way back home. I know and she knows that he will check and ground her
from Chamille for anything remotely suspicious.

Sometimes I feel that by doing that I cross the line, but then the
consequences are so severe and affect both her and my daughter, I offer
reminders. I don't control her or Chamille, that's not how I operate.
I figure that's his job, since that's what he does.

It's a fine line of following ones own principles and allowing the rules
and weirdness of another parent enter into your home. Over the years,
I've come to places where I just won't go or do in the name of keeping
the peace for the kids' sake. I used to jump through a lot of hoops for
keeping the peace and the other parent took advantage repeatedly because
he knew I'd agree to it, so that our kids could hang out.

Now, instead of Chamille being desperate to hang out with her friend,
the friend is desperate to hang out with her. Not something I
anticipated by laying down boundaries with this parent. I don't think
anyone wants to be controlled and manipulated. People who control and
manipulate will do it to get what they want until they can't control and
manipulate that person anymore. By allowing him to do so, I was also
allowing him to control and manipulate Chamille by extension. Things
have been a lot better since I stopped letting him do that to us. His
daughter suffers more because of it and Chamille and I both feel
terrible for her, but our lives are better, and that can have the
potential to make her friend's life better.

Sandra Dodd

-=-It's a fine line of following ones own principles and allowing the
rules
and weirdness of another parent enter into your home. Over the years,
I've come to places where I just won't go or do in the name of keeping
the peace for the kids' sake.-=-

I'm always stunned when someone wants to hire a babysitter for rock-
bottom nothing, and then tell them exactly what they can and can't do
in their own home. In the past I kept other people's kids a few
times for money, and I figure they've chosen to leave a child at MY
house, where I've already been living, with my kids, for a long time.

I've heard people defend their "rules" for their kids, too, about
what they can see and hear and eat.

For $4 or $5 an hour, they should take what they get. If they want
to say exactly what gets done, I'd want at least $15 or $20 an hour.
I was thinking as I was typing this what I would take to be harsh and
use time-outs or spankings. Maybe for $100 an hour I'd slip the kid
$20 to claim I was really mean, but not actually be mean.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

> I'm always stunned when someone wants to hire a babysitter for rock-
> bottom nothing, and then tell them exactly what they can and can't do
> in their own home.

Chamille had a pretty decent babysitting gig, or so we thought. She got
$6 an hour for watching 2 boys about 7 and 9 at their house, while they
went to doctors appts. It lasted a while, until she couldn't handle the
complete disregard they had for their parents rules and each other and
she didn't know how to enforce anything. The babysitter is supposed to
be fun and play games and be nice.

That's what Chamille tried doing, but she couldn't get the kids to stop
fighting with each other and one of them kept trying to run away from
home, so Chamille would have to chase him down the street while the
other was left by himself in the house. The parents told her to put
them in time-out in their seperate bedrooms and leave them there for the
whole time if necessary. Chamille couldn't and wouldn't do that because
she thought it was mean, so she quit, or rather I called them and told
them to find another sitter and thanks for the opportunity, but that
she'd changed her mind. The kids were really sad about it because they
said that Chamille was their favorite babysitter ever!