The problem with "autonomy"
Sandra Dodd
One of my oldest writings on unschooling has been translated into
French, here:
http://blog.korrigans.free.fr/index.php/2008/11/18/certificat-
dautonomisation/
Empowerment doesn't translate to French except as autonomisation.
I wanted to say I hadn't used the word "autonomy" on my site at all,
but I went to check. According to a google search of my page, it
appears twice:
http://sandradodd.com/t/whatif
"It is possible that these tv kids have more personal power and
autonomy than the real children - " (Robyn Coburn)
http://sandradodd.com/rules
"There are certain basic principles, imo, that need to be a family
choice, like Safety and Autonomy, but there are others and nuances of
single principles that can be explored and negotiated on individual
bases. " (Danielle Conger)
I'm going to be busy for three hours tonight (Wednesday) and then
gone for 20 hours on Thursday. I don't want to miss this discussion,
but here it is. I'll check back Thursday morning and then Friday.
There have been a couple or three discussions lately about what's
unschooling's problem, or rather what seems to be amiss in some of
the discussions.
I can't say what connotations "autonomy" might have in French, but in
English it seems to me to be beyond and apart from the way I see
attachment parenting. Could it be the source of the belief some
people have that children should be "in charge of their own [whatever
all]" and "in control of their own learning" and might it be why some
people seem to be asking crazy questions that indicate that they
think there are some unschooling rules that say they can't *ever* say
no to or discourage their children?
Autonomous is too separate for a child. It's too separate for an
adult. I'm not "autonomous." I'm Holly's mom, and Marty's mom. I'm
Keith's wife. What they do and what they need and what they want
matters to me, in my life, because they are not autonomous. I
cannot "grant autonomy" to a child, though I can give them an extreme
amount of freedom.
I can't "grant autonomy" to people who get a certificate from my
website, but they can be empowered, and they can empower their children.
Is there a softer, gentler way to see "autonomy" than the way I'm
seeing it? Maybe I'm the only one who sees a difference between
living together closely and lovingly and "autonomization," but it
sounds to me like the mother fox digging a little hole for each
autonomous baby fox.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
French, here:
http://blog.korrigans.free.fr/index.php/2008/11/18/certificat-
dautonomisation/
Empowerment doesn't translate to French except as autonomisation.
I wanted to say I hadn't used the word "autonomy" on my site at all,
but I went to check. According to a google search of my page, it
appears twice:
http://sandradodd.com/t/whatif
"It is possible that these tv kids have more personal power and
autonomy than the real children - " (Robyn Coburn)
http://sandradodd.com/rules
"There are certain basic principles, imo, that need to be a family
choice, like Safety and Autonomy, but there are others and nuances of
single principles that can be explored and negotiated on individual
bases. " (Danielle Conger)
I'm going to be busy for three hours tonight (Wednesday) and then
gone for 20 hours on Thursday. I don't want to miss this discussion,
but here it is. I'll check back Thursday morning and then Friday.
There have been a couple or three discussions lately about what's
unschooling's problem, or rather what seems to be amiss in some of
the discussions.
I can't say what connotations "autonomy" might have in French, but in
English it seems to me to be beyond and apart from the way I see
attachment parenting. Could it be the source of the belief some
people have that children should be "in charge of their own [whatever
all]" and "in control of their own learning" and might it be why some
people seem to be asking crazy questions that indicate that they
think there are some unschooling rules that say they can't *ever* say
no to or discourage their children?
Autonomous is too separate for a child. It's too separate for an
adult. I'm not "autonomous." I'm Holly's mom, and Marty's mom. I'm
Keith's wife. What they do and what they need and what they want
matters to me, in my life, because they are not autonomous. I
cannot "grant autonomy" to a child, though I can give them an extreme
amount of freedom.
I can't "grant autonomy" to people who get a certificate from my
website, but they can be empowered, and they can empower their children.
Is there a softer, gentler way to see "autonomy" than the way I'm
seeing it? Maybe I'm the only one who sees a difference between
living together closely and lovingly and "autonomization," but it
sounds to me like the mother fox digging a little hole for each
autonomous baby fox.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
http://tinyurl.com/5pdrw5
(to the French blog with the Certificate of Empowerment)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
(to the French blog with the Certificate of Empowerment)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
claire.horsley08
A quick check in a few online dictionaries gave the following sorts of definitions for
'autonomy':
- self-governing
- makes own decisions
- organises own activities
- independence
It seems that the word 'autonomy' is mainly used in a political or social context. To say
that my 4 year old daughter has autonomy in her choice of clothing seems a little
overblown. She has free choice in her clothing, and in other things too, but it is choice
within the framework of possibilities that I provide. For unschooling to really work, the
parents need to provide a broad range of opportunities and resources, as well as ongoing
willingness to participate as each kid requires; while the kids pursue their own interests
and passions, within the framework of shared responsibilities and mutual co-operation.
This seems to be almost the opposite of autonomy - people coming together rather than
splitting off to follow their own separate agendas.
I see the goal of unschooling not as autonomy but as the ability to combine independent
thought with care for others. Loosening up rigid controls on children does not have to
mean leaving them floundering in a sea of autonomy, rather it can bring parents and
children together. And in unschooling families, yes kids can make their own decisions and
organise their own activities, but within the context of their family and community.
'autonomy':
- self-governing
- makes own decisions
- organises own activities
- independence
It seems that the word 'autonomy' is mainly used in a political or social context. To say
that my 4 year old daughter has autonomy in her choice of clothing seems a little
overblown. She has free choice in her clothing, and in other things too, but it is choice
within the framework of possibilities that I provide. For unschooling to really work, the
parents need to provide a broad range of opportunities and resources, as well as ongoing
willingness to participate as each kid requires; while the kids pursue their own interests
and passions, within the framework of shared responsibilities and mutual co-operation.
This seems to be almost the opposite of autonomy - people coming together rather than
splitting off to follow their own separate agendas.
I see the goal of unschooling not as autonomy but as the ability to combine independent
thought with care for others. Loosening up rigid controls on children does not have to
mean leaving them floundering in a sea of autonomy, rather it can bring parents and
children together. And in unschooling families, yes kids can make their own decisions and
organise their own activities, but within the context of their family and community.
Margaret
Doesn't really address the autonomy issue, but your translation
difficulties reminded me of Mark Twain's story about one of his
stories being translated into French...
http://members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/solarmyth/frog.html
difficulties reminded me of Mark Twain's story about one of his
stories being translated into French...
http://members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/solarmyth/frog.html
On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> One of my oldest writings on unschooling has been translated into
> French, here:
> http://blog.korrigans.free.fr/index.php/2008/11/18/certificat-
> dautonomisation/
>
> Empowerment doesn't translate to French except as autonomisation.
>
> I wanted to say I hadn't used the word "autonomy" on my site at all,
> but I went to check. According to a google search of my page, it
> appears twice:
>
> http://sandradodd.com/t/whatif
> "It is possible that these tv kids have more personal power and
> autonomy than the real children - " (Robyn Coburn)
>
> http://sandradodd.com/rules
> "There are certain basic principles, imo, that need to be a family
> choice, like Safety and Autonomy, but there are others and nuances of
> single principles that can be explored and negotiated on individual
> bases. " (Danielle Conger)
>
> I'm going to be busy for three hours tonight (Wednesday) and then
> gone for 20 hours on Thursday. I don't want to miss this discussion,
> but here it is. I'll check back Thursday morning and then Friday.
>
> There have been a couple or three discussions lately about what's
> unschooling's problem, or rather what seems to be amiss in some of
> the discussions.
>
> I can't say what connotations "autonomy" might have in French, but in
> English it seems to me to be beyond and apart from the way I see
> attachment parenting. Could it be the source of the belief some
> people have that children should be "in charge of their own [whatever
> all]" and "in control of their own learning" and might it be why some
> people seem to be asking crazy questions that indicate that they
> think there are some unschooling rules that say they can't *ever* say
> no to or discourage their children?
>
> Autonomous is too separate for a child. It's too separate for an
> adult. I'm not "autonomous." I'm Holly's mom, and Marty's mom. I'm
> Keith's wife. What they do and what they need and what they want
> matters to me, in my life, because they are not autonomous. I
> cannot "grant autonomy" to a child, though I can give them an extreme
> amount of freedom.
>
> I can't "grant autonomy" to people who get a certificate from my
> website, but they can be empowered, and they can empower their children.
>
> Is there a softer, gentler way to see "autonomy" than the way I'm
> seeing it? Maybe I'm the only one who sees a difference between
> living together closely and lovingly and "autonomization," but it
> sounds to me like the mother fox digging a little hole for each
> autonomous baby fox.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
Jenny C
> Is there a softer, gentler way to see "autonomy" than the way I'mThis is, in part, what wikipedia says:
> seeing it? Maybe I'm the only one who sees a difference between
> living together closely and lovingly and "autonomization," but it
> sounds to me like the mother fox digging a little hole for each
> autonomous baby fox.
Autonomy is a concept <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concept> found in
moral <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral> , political
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political> , and bioethical
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioethics> philosophy
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy> . Within these contexts, it
refers to the capacity of a rational
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationality> individual
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual> to make an informed,
uncoerced decision.
So, that sounds pretty good, but do all kids have complete rationale in
regards to all things? I think that may be the difference. Unschooling
operates on the assumption that kids absolutely need help from their
parents to function in the world because they don't always know and
aren't always informed or rational and because of this, as parents, we
need to be there to help and guide.
However, I do like the part about uncoerced and informed decision
making! That is largely what I help my kids DO day in and day out! So,
in that respect, our family is an autonomous unit.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
"Yes-Kids" -- I like that.
On Nov 19, 2008, at 9:26 PM, claire.horsley08 wrote:
> And in unschooling families, yes kids can make their own decisions and
> organise their own activities, but within the context of their
> family and community.
Anne Mills
about this fantactic article, and its translation i feel that French should have translated in ''renforcement de soi''as in French a group of word translate often for one in English.
Also the idea of empowerment in French culture, is dissociated into physical and psychologicalprocess as well as philosophical.
The philosopher uses the added ''soi'' which means self.
Lovely lovely article Sandra.
Anne Mills
To: [email protected]
From: Sandra@...
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:50:26 -0700
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] The problem with "autonomy"
One of my oldest writings on unschooling has been translated into
French, here:
http://blog.korrigans.free.fr/index.php/2008/11/18/certificat-
dautonomisation/
Empowerment doesn't translate to French except as autonomisation.
I wanted to say I hadn't used the word "autonomy" on my site at all,
but I went to check. According to a google search of my page, it
appears twice:
http://sandradodd.com/t/whatif
"It is possible that these tv kids have more personal power and
autonomy than the real children - " (Robyn Coburn)
http://sandradodd.com/rules
"There are certain basic principles, imo, that need to be a family
choice, like Safety and Autonomy, but there are others and nuances of
single principles that can be explored and negotiated on individual
bases. " (Danielle Conger)
I'm going to be busy for three hours tonight (Wednesday) and then
gone for 20 hours on Thursday. I don't want to miss this discussion,
but here it is. I'll check back Thursday morning and then Friday.
There have been a couple or three discussions lately about what's
unschooling's problem, or rather what seems to be amiss in some of
the discussions.
I can't say what connotations "autonomy" might have in French, but in
English it seems to me to be beyond and apart from the way I see
attachment parenting. Could it be the source of the belief some
people have that children should be "in charge of their own [whatever
all]" and "in control of their own learning" and might it be why some
people seem to be asking crazy questions that indicate that they
think there are some unschooling rules that say they can't *ever* say
no to or discourage their children?
Autonomous is too separate for a child. It's too separate for an
adult. I'm not "autonomous." I'm Holly's mom, and Marty's mom. I'm
Keith's wife. What they do and what they need and what they want
matters to me, in my life, because they are not autonomous. I
cannot "grant autonomy" to a child, though I can give them an extreme
amount of freedom.
I can't "grant autonomy" to people who get a certificate from my
website, but they can be empowered, and they can empower their children.
Is there a softer, gentler way to see "autonomy" than the way I'm
seeing it? Maybe I'm the only one who sees a difference between
living together closely and lovingly and "autonomization," but it
sounds to me like the mother fox digging a little hole for each
autonomous baby fox.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Also the idea of empowerment in French culture, is dissociated into physical and psychologicalprocess as well as philosophical.
The philosopher uses the added ''soi'' which means self.
Lovely lovely article Sandra.
Anne Mills
To: [email protected]
From: Sandra@...
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:50:26 -0700
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] The problem with "autonomy"
One of my oldest writings on unschooling has been translated into
French, here:
http://blog.korrigans.free.fr/index.php/2008/11/18/certificat-
dautonomisation/
Empowerment doesn't translate to French except as autonomisation.
I wanted to say I hadn't used the word "autonomy" on my site at all,
but I went to check. According to a google search of my page, it
appears twice:
http://sandradodd.com/t/whatif
"It is possible that these tv kids have more personal power and
autonomy than the real children - " (Robyn Coburn)
http://sandradodd.com/rules
"There are certain basic principles, imo, that need to be a family
choice, like Safety and Autonomy, but there are others and nuances of
single principles that can be explored and negotiated on individual
bases. " (Danielle Conger)
I'm going to be busy for three hours tonight (Wednesday) and then
gone for 20 hours on Thursday. I don't want to miss this discussion,
but here it is. I'll check back Thursday morning and then Friday.
There have been a couple or three discussions lately about what's
unschooling's problem, or rather what seems to be amiss in some of
the discussions.
I can't say what connotations "autonomy" might have in French, but in
English it seems to me to be beyond and apart from the way I see
attachment parenting. Could it be the source of the belief some
people have that children should be "in charge of their own [whatever
all]" and "in control of their own learning" and might it be why some
people seem to be asking crazy questions that indicate that they
think there are some unschooling rules that say they can't *ever* say
no to or discourage their children?
Autonomous is too separate for a child. It's too separate for an
adult. I'm not "autonomous." I'm Holly's mom, and Marty's mom. I'm
Keith's wife. What they do and what they need and what they want
matters to me, in my life, because they are not autonomous. I
cannot "grant autonomy" to a child, though I can give them an extreme
amount of freedom.
I can't "grant autonomy" to people who get a certificate from my
website, but they can be empowered, and they can empower their children.
Is there a softer, gentler way to see "autonomy" than the way I'm
seeing it? Maybe I'm the only one who sees a difference between
living together closely and lovingly and "autonomization," but it
sounds to me like the mother fox digging a little hole for each
autonomous baby fox.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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claire.horsley08
--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
kids can make their own decisions ...", but I was tired and forgot the comma. But you found
a whole new meaning, which is really cool because not only am I consciously trying to say
'yes' to my kids as much as possible, but I also think that unschooling encourages kids to say
'yes', to try new things and be open to new possibilities.
>Pam, that is great! The sentence was supposed to read," And in unschooling families, yes,
> "Yes-Kids" -- I like that.
kids can make their own decisions ...", but I was tired and forgot the comma. But you found
a whole new meaning, which is really cool because not only am I consciously trying to say
'yes' to my kids as much as possible, but I also think that unschooling encourages kids to say
'yes', to try new things and be open to new possibilities.