art, programming, symmetry (and math)
Sandra Dodd
http://gprime.net/game.php/kailidoscopedrawing
There is one cool toy. I wouldn't say "math" or if you do, don't
talk about numbers much.
For those of you who aren't sure yet how to see math in art and that,
maybe this will help. It couldn't hurt. <g>
Holly and I played with it for a long time this afternoon. She likes
doing long straight lines. I like flowery looking stuff. And
although it looks kinda kaleidoscopic, it isn't. You're not limited
to one wedge as with a kaleidoscope.
There's a link there to other games on the same site. I haven't
checked them out and am about to have company so I can't right now.
If anyone finds good ones, though, feel free to report and comment here!
Other artsy games, and artsy-music games:
http://sandradodd.com/art
http://sandradodd.com/music
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
There is one cool toy. I wouldn't say "math" or if you do, don't
talk about numbers much.
For those of you who aren't sure yet how to see math in art and that,
maybe this will help. It couldn't hurt. <g>
Holly and I played with it for a long time this afternoon. She likes
doing long straight lines. I like flowery looking stuff. And
although it looks kinda kaleidoscopic, it isn't. You're not limited
to one wedge as with a kaleidoscope.
There's a link there to other games on the same site. I haven't
checked them out and am about to have company so I can't right now.
If anyone finds good ones, though, feel free to report and comment here!
Other artsy games, and artsy-music games:
http://sandradodd.com/art
http://sandradodd.com/music
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn L. Coburn
As one of the people who used the word "autonomy" on Sandra's site I guess I
should join this conversation. To be honest I'm a bit surprised that the
idea of autonomy is being considered as a negative, outside of the
translation difficulty.
In the context of my little piece on television, I was talking about
autonomy as the character's freedom to make decisions and take actions
without constantly having to ask permission of their parents or some other
authority. The characters are making decisions and taking actions
independently of authority figures, to an unrealistic outlandish extent.
Sometimes there are problematic consequences, which is the
"hi-jinks", and sometimes the results are positive. I'm immediately thinking
of the time Raven covered herself with clay and feathers and got on a bus to
help her friend. The underlying paradigm in all these family comedies is one
of separation of parents and children, coupled with the belief that the
parents "job" is to stymie the whacky plans and put road blocks in their
kids' way - two pieces of thinking that are the opposite of unschooling
practice.
Also I believe I referred to "more" autonomy. There is a wide variation
between the notion of "absolute autonomy" - which we can define as no notion
or regard for community or other
people - and the near zero autonomy created by the circumscribed life that
most regular kids seem to live - at least the bits of lives that I see when
I go out in public and listen to conventional parents with their kids at
places like the park, the store, museums and the YMCA swimming pool - the
constant barrage of orders and minutiae of control from the parents, the
endless ENDLESS checking from the kids as to whether it's ok to eat a candy
or take off one's
sweater or go to the bathroom that the kids seem to take as normal
interactions. And just to clarify I'm talking about asking permission way
beyond what might be
considered plain politeness on the part of a youngster, the kind of
courteous checking in that our unschooled kids increasingly show with
maturity like whether the last soda in the fridge is spoken for.
I also found this page of links:
http://www.ask.com/web?q=Principle+of+Autonomy&qsrc=6&o=10601
I like this definition of the Principle of Autonomy:
"The principle of respect for autonomy, Respect for autonomy, then, should
not be construed as an absolute and foundational value, but a "middle
principle" that requires every individual to respect every other
individual's
self-determination to an appropriate extent within the context of
community."
especially when combined with this idea:
"The principle of autonomy, or self-determination, entails respecting the
choices and wishes of persons who have the capacity to decide and protecting
those who lack this capacity."
The freedom (within the law of the land) to make personal decisions and take
actions based on one's own
judgment, without having to ask permission of some perceived authority
figure (that
permission is not required) - that is what autonomy means to me.
There seems to be a perception that autonomy has "separation" as it's
foundation which could be a problem for unschooling.
However these definitions show that the idea of community and the idea of
parental guidance,
are both included even wrapped up in the working definition of "autonomy"
already.
I allow Jayn as much autonomy as I can, especially since in the wider world
conventional ideas - about how
little autonomy she should be allowed, how little "capacity" she must have
to understand her own wishes (in conventional thinking about kids), how few
rights to enact decisions most parents give their children - conventional
ideas appear overwhelmingly against granting any autonomy to a child.
This may not help with the problem of translating to another language
though.
Perhaps there might be something useful for translations in the idea of
independence of thought. I like the definition in "Now Voyager" (Bette
Davis, Paul Henried - 1942). To the best of my recollection:
Charlotte: "Independence of mind means relying on one's own will and
judgement."
This was from an adult who had been mercilessly squashed and bossed and
controlled all her life to the point of having a nervous breakdown and
having to relearn to trust her own judgment and opinions and become free of
fear.
Jayn is very determined in protecting her right to express her opinion, her
wants, her intended or desired course of action. I believe she has a very
strong sense of self. She is going to make bad decisions sometimes. I have
learnt, with Jayn's particular temperament, that the negative energy and
anger resulting from trying to guide her away from bad decisions (or speed
up her process) are usually more than the small amount of negative energy
resulting from her persisting in enacting the bad decision - especially when
I act as a cushion (to use a familiar example just quietly putting the
sweater or the other shoes into my bag.)
She will loudly protest "it's MY decision" and doesn't like hearing at all
that there are times when it is NOT. She is still learning where her
autonomy meets the community, still learning how her decisions can affect
the members of her family. I'm still waiting for the full flowering of
empathy, even as I am finally seeing moments of it. We have been having
struggles with what I can only see as her self-centeredness. I am sometimes
baffled. Jayn will say that she is "the most important thing", and it has
been hard for her to hear that even if that is so, she is not the only
thing. Sometimes the only thing that has changed her obnoxious behavior or
her thinking has been very strong disapproval from her father and I. So
while there is autonomy, there are also boundaries to it.
And yet it may be that my thinking on this is all wrong, that I should be
thinking more in terms of our family community of three rather than as three
individuals dancing together. Perhaps we could talk a little about hierarchy
in family structure.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
should join this conversation. To be honest I'm a bit surprised that the
idea of autonomy is being considered as a negative, outside of the
translation difficulty.
In the context of my little piece on television, I was talking about
autonomy as the character's freedom to make decisions and take actions
without constantly having to ask permission of their parents or some other
authority. The characters are making decisions and taking actions
independently of authority figures, to an unrealistic outlandish extent.
Sometimes there are problematic consequences, which is the
"hi-jinks", and sometimes the results are positive. I'm immediately thinking
of the time Raven covered herself with clay and feathers and got on a bus to
help her friend. The underlying paradigm in all these family comedies is one
of separation of parents and children, coupled with the belief that the
parents "job" is to stymie the whacky plans and put road blocks in their
kids' way - two pieces of thinking that are the opposite of unschooling
practice.
Also I believe I referred to "more" autonomy. There is a wide variation
between the notion of "absolute autonomy" - which we can define as no notion
or regard for community or other
people - and the near zero autonomy created by the circumscribed life that
most regular kids seem to live - at least the bits of lives that I see when
I go out in public and listen to conventional parents with their kids at
places like the park, the store, museums and the YMCA swimming pool - the
constant barrage of orders and minutiae of control from the parents, the
endless ENDLESS checking from the kids as to whether it's ok to eat a candy
or take off one's
sweater or go to the bathroom that the kids seem to take as normal
interactions. And just to clarify I'm talking about asking permission way
beyond what might be
considered plain politeness on the part of a youngster, the kind of
courteous checking in that our unschooled kids increasingly show with
maturity like whether the last soda in the fridge is spoken for.
I also found this page of links:
http://www.ask.com/web?q=Principle+of+Autonomy&qsrc=6&o=10601
I like this definition of the Principle of Autonomy:
"The principle of respect for autonomy, Respect for autonomy, then, should
not be construed as an absolute and foundational value, but a "middle
principle" that requires every individual to respect every other
individual's
self-determination to an appropriate extent within the context of
community."
especially when combined with this idea:
"The principle of autonomy, or self-determination, entails respecting the
choices and wishes of persons who have the capacity to decide and protecting
those who lack this capacity."
The freedom (within the law of the land) to make personal decisions and take
actions based on one's own
judgment, without having to ask permission of some perceived authority
figure (that
permission is not required) - that is what autonomy means to me.
There seems to be a perception that autonomy has "separation" as it's
foundation which could be a problem for unschooling.
However these definitions show that the idea of community and the idea of
parental guidance,
are both included even wrapped up in the working definition of "autonomy"
already.
I allow Jayn as much autonomy as I can, especially since in the wider world
conventional ideas - about how
little autonomy she should be allowed, how little "capacity" she must have
to understand her own wishes (in conventional thinking about kids), how few
rights to enact decisions most parents give their children - conventional
ideas appear overwhelmingly against granting any autonomy to a child.
This may not help with the problem of translating to another language
though.
Perhaps there might be something useful for translations in the idea of
independence of thought. I like the definition in "Now Voyager" (Bette
Davis, Paul Henried - 1942). To the best of my recollection:
Charlotte: "Independence of mind means relying on one's own will and
judgement."
This was from an adult who had been mercilessly squashed and bossed and
controlled all her life to the point of having a nervous breakdown and
having to relearn to trust her own judgment and opinions and become free of
fear.
Jayn is very determined in protecting her right to express her opinion, her
wants, her intended or desired course of action. I believe she has a very
strong sense of self. She is going to make bad decisions sometimes. I have
learnt, with Jayn's particular temperament, that the negative energy and
anger resulting from trying to guide her away from bad decisions (or speed
up her process) are usually more than the small amount of negative energy
resulting from her persisting in enacting the bad decision - especially when
I act as a cushion (to use a familiar example just quietly putting the
sweater or the other shoes into my bag.)
She will loudly protest "it's MY decision" and doesn't like hearing at all
that there are times when it is NOT. She is still learning where her
autonomy meets the community, still learning how her decisions can affect
the members of her family. I'm still waiting for the full flowering of
empathy, even as I am finally seeing moments of it. We have been having
struggles with what I can only see as her self-centeredness. I am sometimes
baffled. Jayn will say that she is "the most important thing", and it has
been hard for her to hear that even if that is so, she is not the only
thing. Sometimes the only thing that has changed her obnoxious behavior or
her thinking has been very strong disapproval from her father and I. So
while there is autonomy, there are also boundaries to it.
And yet it may be that my thinking on this is all wrong, that I should be
thinking more in terms of our family community of three rather than as three
individuals dancing together. Perhaps we could talk a little about hierarchy
in family structure.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
Sandra Dodd
-=-Charlotte: "Independence of mind means relying on one's own will
and judgement."-=-
"Relying" is even too strong for me. Although someone might choose
to or need to rely on her own will and judgement, it's ideally a
choice to do so. I don't mind relying on Keith for some things. If
he dies or leave I'll have to "rely" on my self or someone else for
those things (bill paying, oil changing, wood chopping), and if I
disappear Keith will need to do his own mending, laundry, shopping
and dishes, or find someone to do those things.
I don't rely on my own judgment, even about unschooling and
parenting. I talk to Keith. I talk to other parents I trust whose
kids have been through what mine are starting to go through.
I don't rely on my own will. We just returned home safely from a big
outing yesterday, four people, over 500 miles travelled and home
again. I needed them to want to agree to go. I didn't personally
earn the $200 for the theatre tickets. I didn't do any of the
driving. It was my idea, though, and my purchase and planning and
letter to the grandparents. I wrote the checklist for what to take
in the car. But if any of those other three had said "not fun" or "I
don't want to," it wouldn't have been fun. It was something we did
as a group. I relied on them for some parts, and they relied on me
for some parts, and that's how it happened.
Keith and I met in a Renaissance music group. No one person can sing
madrigals alone. I ended up being the coordinator and leader of that
group, through no planning, will or judgment of my own. The original
intended director never showed up. I accepted the task tentatively
at first and strongly after a while, and other people relied on me.
And I needed to run it in such a way that they wanted to come back,
because its impossible for one person to run a madrigal group when
there's no group to run.
I'm used to group activities and inter-dependencies and
assistances. I think it's good and right and healthy.
Perhaps the "one's own will and judgement" comes at the "do I go on
this road trip or not?" or "Do I go back and sing again or not?"
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and judgement."-=-
"Relying" is even too strong for me. Although someone might choose
to or need to rely on her own will and judgement, it's ideally a
choice to do so. I don't mind relying on Keith for some things. If
he dies or leave I'll have to "rely" on my self or someone else for
those things (bill paying, oil changing, wood chopping), and if I
disappear Keith will need to do his own mending, laundry, shopping
and dishes, or find someone to do those things.
I don't rely on my own judgment, even about unschooling and
parenting. I talk to Keith. I talk to other parents I trust whose
kids have been through what mine are starting to go through.
I don't rely on my own will. We just returned home safely from a big
outing yesterday, four people, over 500 miles travelled and home
again. I needed them to want to agree to go. I didn't personally
earn the $200 for the theatre tickets. I didn't do any of the
driving. It was my idea, though, and my purchase and planning and
letter to the grandparents. I wrote the checklist for what to take
in the car. But if any of those other three had said "not fun" or "I
don't want to," it wouldn't have been fun. It was something we did
as a group. I relied on them for some parts, and they relied on me
for some parts, and that's how it happened.
Keith and I met in a Renaissance music group. No one person can sing
madrigals alone. I ended up being the coordinator and leader of that
group, through no planning, will or judgment of my own. The original
intended director never showed up. I accepted the task tentatively
at first and strongly after a while, and other people relied on me.
And I needed to run it in such a way that they wanted to come back,
because its impossible for one person to run a madrigal group when
there's no group to run.
I'm used to group activities and inter-dependencies and
assistances. I think it's good and right and healthy.
Perhaps the "one's own will and judgement" comes at the "do I go on
this road trip or not?" or "Do I go back and sing again or not?"
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Jayn is very determined in protecting her right to express her
opinion, her
wants, her intended or desired course of action. I believe she has a
very
strong sense of self. -=-
You gave her the right to express her opinion.
You could have given her the right to express her opinion to you and
her dad. You could try to protect her right to express her opinion
to other people. You cannot give her the right to express her
opinion in all times in all places, though. No one has that right
and no one can grant it to anyone else.
-=-She will loudly protest "it's MY decision" and doesn't like
hearing at all that there are times when it is NOT. She is still
learning where her autonomy meets the community-=-
Is it possible that early on you seemed to grant her more rights than
you had the power to grant?
-=-And yet it may be that my thinking on this is all wrong, that I
should be thinking more in terms of our family community of three
rather than as three individuals dancing together. Perhaps we could
talk a little about hierarchy in family structure.-=-
We can give our kids equal voice in a particular situation, because
it's ours to give. We can let Holly veto a restaurant choice the
other four like. We could refuse her veto (and have sometimes) but
sometimes she gets whiney and reactionary and it was better to find a
different choice. I didn't let the kids talk me into my weird
Christmas tree made only of strings of lights last year. I wanted a
real tree. So I had one. This year I'm going back to the thing they
liked. It's cheaper, it takes less room, it's not a fire hazard, and
I'll tell them I'm doing it because they were right in their
arguments. But I COULD insist on a big damned tree. I COULD take
Holly to restaurants she doesn't want to go to.
What I can't do is blame my kids when our mortgage payment isn't
made. Keith and I couldn't tell the mortgage company, "Well, the
kids didn't want to make the payment, and there are three of them and
only two of us." I couldn't refuse to deal with the insurance
company when Marty was in an accident and say "Hey, it was your
accident." The insurance is in Keith's name. So I could tell Keith
he had to deal with it (and he did, actually, because he wanted to).
There are duties and responsibilities that parents can't pass off.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
opinion, her
wants, her intended or desired course of action. I believe she has a
very
strong sense of self. -=-
You gave her the right to express her opinion.
You could have given her the right to express her opinion to you and
her dad. You could try to protect her right to express her opinion
to other people. You cannot give her the right to express her
opinion in all times in all places, though. No one has that right
and no one can grant it to anyone else.
-=-She will loudly protest "it's MY decision" and doesn't like
hearing at all that there are times when it is NOT. She is still
learning where her autonomy meets the community-=-
Is it possible that early on you seemed to grant her more rights than
you had the power to grant?
-=-And yet it may be that my thinking on this is all wrong, that I
should be thinking more in terms of our family community of three
rather than as three individuals dancing together. Perhaps we could
talk a little about hierarchy in family structure.-=-
We can give our kids equal voice in a particular situation, because
it's ours to give. We can let Holly veto a restaurant choice the
other four like. We could refuse her veto (and have sometimes) but
sometimes she gets whiney and reactionary and it was better to find a
different choice. I didn't let the kids talk me into my weird
Christmas tree made only of strings of lights last year. I wanted a
real tree. So I had one. This year I'm going back to the thing they
liked. It's cheaper, it takes less room, it's not a fire hazard, and
I'll tell them I'm doing it because they were right in their
arguments. But I COULD insist on a big damned tree. I COULD take
Holly to restaurants she doesn't want to go to.
What I can't do is blame my kids when our mortgage payment isn't
made. Keith and I couldn't tell the mortgage company, "Well, the
kids didn't want to make the payment, and there are three of them and
only two of us." I couldn't refuse to deal with the insurance
company when Marty was in an accident and say "Hey, it was your
accident." The insurance is in Keith's name. So I could tell Keith
he had to deal with it (and he did, actually, because he wanted to).
There are duties and responsibilities that parents can't pass off.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<<> Is it possible that early on you seemed to grant her more rights than
actions recently. Maybe I have been getting caught up in expectations or
some vision of how Jayn *should be* developing and her maturity level. As
she gets older, and I have clearer memories of my own life at her age, those
noisy mental tapes are coming back in force.
However on the opposite side of this is my tendency to be overly concerned
about the feelings of other people and overly worried about other people's
opinions. I have written about this before. I have what might be an
excessively conservative idea about other people's boundaries and may be
advising caution to Jayn beyond what is reasonable, and she has both
experience and observation to tell her that I am being too worried (which
she translates as "mean" to her). A long time ago I wrote about the energy I
invested in helping her be quiet at night - this is entirely for the peace
of our neighbor. I think what I have is a gulf between my expectations and
what I insist upon from Jayn in the world and in dealing with others
(despite insisting with respect if that makes sense) and the extreme
relaxation of her life at home.
When I referred to Jayn finding the line between her autonomy and her
community I should have been clearer. I was talking about our family, her
immediate community. The fact is that when Jayn is out at other people's
homes or in public places she is generally very pleasant and courteous. She
isn't making unreasonable demands. In public places like the YMCA where we
swim, she accepts the rules and complies generally cheerfully. When visiting
homes she takes her cues from the host children most of the time, and
follows rules, sometimes sharing with me later how odd they are in her view.
In playing she is much less bossy sounding than she used to be, as I listen
to her play, far more flexible. Although she sometimes gets locked into
pre-conceived plans or expectations of others, she is getting better about
hearing my warnings and suggestions and at dealing with disappointment. The
last L&L conference was the scene of some real growth for her in that area.
No, all the areas where James and I are feeling challenged by Jayn's
attitude and behavior are towards us and in our home. She has been so very
sweet the last 10 days or so that I'm having trouble coming up with an
example, and I know that so much of her emotional volatility is mirroring
mine at different times. This coincides with a period when we have been on
our nights and as we came out our neighbors were ill (and we don't play with
sick kids if we can avoid them), so we have been spending a lot of time
together just her and I, reading, writing, sewing, drawing, playing card
games, playing our new Wii, playing Agatha Christie and Nancy Drew computer
games and swimming at the YMCA. Lots of my undivided focus. Is there a
connection? Maybe.
I do know that when Jayn has been spending a lot of time with certain kids
or playing at other homes where there are a lot of rules and strictures she
comes home with more stress to release, and sometimes that takes the form of
insisting on her "rights" even when no-one is trying to remove them. It
seems like she is looking for a fight so she asks rudely and makes demands
that of course immediately get my back up and cause teeth gritting. This is
when I try to remember some of Joyce's wonderful writing about anger in
kids, "Do you love me now, even now?" and breathe.
I'm having a hard time treading the line between understanding where this is
coming from and my desire to impress on her that it is "unacceptable", when
that latter mind set only makes things worse, feeding more negativity into a
stressed moment. When does "impressing" some idea on to someone else ever
work well? I have found that silence is best. Just looking at her sadly and
waiting a moment. She will generally wind down and apologise (unasked) and
tell me something about her feelings - usually expressed as "tired", even
though I think it is closer to "fed up". Yes, definitely just refraining
from making any comment at all in the heat of the moment is best - but I
have to remember to be still. Talking later in the calm about issues was
what worked best when she was little. I don't know when I shifted into being
this person who feels like I must immediately correct Jayn's behavior or
attitude or speech towards me. I think I need to revisit and return to the
happy strategies that worked to promote peace amongst us all when Jayn was
younger.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
> you had the power to grant? >>>This is a possibility and I have been doing a lot of re-examination of our
actions recently. Maybe I have been getting caught up in expectations or
some vision of how Jayn *should be* developing and her maturity level. As
she gets older, and I have clearer memories of my own life at her age, those
noisy mental tapes are coming back in force.
However on the opposite side of this is my tendency to be overly concerned
about the feelings of other people and overly worried about other people's
opinions. I have written about this before. I have what might be an
excessively conservative idea about other people's boundaries and may be
advising caution to Jayn beyond what is reasonable, and she has both
experience and observation to tell her that I am being too worried (which
she translates as "mean" to her). A long time ago I wrote about the energy I
invested in helping her be quiet at night - this is entirely for the peace
of our neighbor. I think what I have is a gulf between my expectations and
what I insist upon from Jayn in the world and in dealing with others
(despite insisting with respect if that makes sense) and the extreme
relaxation of her life at home.
When I referred to Jayn finding the line between her autonomy and her
community I should have been clearer. I was talking about our family, her
immediate community. The fact is that when Jayn is out at other people's
homes or in public places she is generally very pleasant and courteous. She
isn't making unreasonable demands. In public places like the YMCA where we
swim, she accepts the rules and complies generally cheerfully. When visiting
homes she takes her cues from the host children most of the time, and
follows rules, sometimes sharing with me later how odd they are in her view.
In playing she is much less bossy sounding than she used to be, as I listen
to her play, far more flexible. Although she sometimes gets locked into
pre-conceived plans or expectations of others, she is getting better about
hearing my warnings and suggestions and at dealing with disappointment. The
last L&L conference was the scene of some real growth for her in that area.
No, all the areas where James and I are feeling challenged by Jayn's
attitude and behavior are towards us and in our home. She has been so very
sweet the last 10 days or so that I'm having trouble coming up with an
example, and I know that so much of her emotional volatility is mirroring
mine at different times. This coincides with a period when we have been on
our nights and as we came out our neighbors were ill (and we don't play with
sick kids if we can avoid them), so we have been spending a lot of time
together just her and I, reading, writing, sewing, drawing, playing card
games, playing our new Wii, playing Agatha Christie and Nancy Drew computer
games and swimming at the YMCA. Lots of my undivided focus. Is there a
connection? Maybe.
I do know that when Jayn has been spending a lot of time with certain kids
or playing at other homes where there are a lot of rules and strictures she
comes home with more stress to release, and sometimes that takes the form of
insisting on her "rights" even when no-one is trying to remove them. It
seems like she is looking for a fight so she asks rudely and makes demands
that of course immediately get my back up and cause teeth gritting. This is
when I try to remember some of Joyce's wonderful writing about anger in
kids, "Do you love me now, even now?" and breathe.
I'm having a hard time treading the line between understanding where this is
coming from and my desire to impress on her that it is "unacceptable", when
that latter mind set only makes things worse, feeding more negativity into a
stressed moment. When does "impressing" some idea on to someone else ever
work well? I have found that silence is best. Just looking at her sadly and
waiting a moment. She will generally wind down and apologise (unasked) and
tell me something about her feelings - usually expressed as "tired", even
though I think it is closer to "fed up". Yes, definitely just refraining
from making any comment at all in the heat of the moment is best - but I
have to remember to be still. Talking later in the calm about issues was
what worked best when she was little. I don't know when I shifted into being
this person who feels like I must immediately correct Jayn's behavior or
attitude or speech towards me. I think I need to revisit and return to the
happy strategies that worked to promote peace amongst us all when Jayn was
younger.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
>
> -=-And yet it may be that my thinking on this is all wrong, that I
> should be thinking more in terms of our family community of three
> rather than as three individuals dancing together. Perhaps we could
> talk a little about hierarchy in family structure.-=-
>
> We can give our kids equal voice in a particular situation, because
> it's ours to give. We can let Holly veto a restaurant choice the
> other four like. We could refuse her veto (and have sometimes) but
> sometimes she gets whiney and reactionary and it was better to find a
> different choice. I didn't let the kids talk me into my weird
> Christmas tree made only of strings of lights last year. I wanted a
> real tree. So I had one. This year I'm going back to the thing they
> liked. It's cheaper, it takes less room, it's not a fire hazard, and
> I'll tell them I'm doing it because they were right in their
> arguments. But I COULD insist on a big damned tree. I COULD take
> Holly to restaurants she doesn't want to go to.
>
>
>
> What I can't do is blame my kids when our mortgage payment isn't
> made. Keith and I couldn't tell the mortgage company, "Well, the
> kids didn't want to make the payment, and there are three of them and
> only two of us." I couldn't refuse to deal with the insurance
> company when Marty was in an accident and say "Hey, it was your
> accident." The insurance is in Keith's name. So I could tell Keith
> he had to deal with it (and he did, actually, because he wanted to).
>
> There are duties and responsibilities that parents can't pass off.
>
>
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.549 / Virus Database: 270.9.6/1797 - Release Date: 11/18/2008
> 11:23 AM
>
>
Pamela Sorooshian
On Nov 21, 2008, at 2:00 PM, Robyn L. Coburn wrote:
than their siblings. If my child is singing really loudly, I'll let
her - I'm happy to let her. But a sister will often not hesitate to
say, "Hey, too loud." Jayn has no sibling "setting her straight" and
does have her very very relaxed and tolerant and adoring parents at
home who don't ever have to intervene between her and a sibling and
help them find ways to tolerate each other's annoying behaviors.
I don't really have an answer - but just was trying to think of how
this played out in my house and I think the difference is that there
were always three kids versus one, so it there wasn't as much contrast
between the outside world and our in-home world.
-pam
> I think what I have is a gulf between my expectations andI'm thinking how I tend to be much more tolerant of things my kids do
> what I insist upon from Jayn in the world and in dealing with others
> (despite insisting with respect if that makes sense) and the extreme
> relaxation of her life at home.
than their siblings. If my child is singing really loudly, I'll let
her - I'm happy to let her. But a sister will often not hesitate to
say, "Hey, too loud." Jayn has no sibling "setting her straight" and
does have her very very relaxed and tolerant and adoring parents at
home who don't ever have to intervene between her and a sibling and
help them find ways to tolerate each other's annoying behaviors.
I don't really have an answer - but just was trying to think of how
this played out in my house and I think the difference is that there
were always three kids versus one, so it there wasn't as much contrast
between the outside world and our in-home world.
-pam
JoyErin
When reading the original post the sibling relationship entered my mind as
well.
I don't remember what age ds was when other people would have considered him
well behaved in public but I knew even then that as soon as we were home
that the
suppressed emotions (partly picking up from me as well) would be expressed
once
we were alone. I think when they were younger those emotions were mostly
expressed
with me but as they grew older I saw the emotions being transferred to his
sibling more
and more. Over the last year we've really limited our time outside the
house together
and they have become the best of friends. I actually not made that
connection until
replying.
Thanks,
Joy
_____
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Pamela Sorooshian
Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 10:52 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Autonomy
well.
I don't remember what age ds was when other people would have considered him
well behaved in public but I knew even then that as soon as we were home
that the
suppressed emotions (partly picking up from me as well) would be expressed
once
we were alone. I think when they were younger those emotions were mostly
expressed
with me but as they grew older I saw the emotions being transferred to his
sibling more
and more. Over the last year we've really limited our time outside the
house together
and they have become the best of friends. I actually not made that
connection until
replying.
Thanks,
Joy
_____
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Pamela Sorooshian
Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 10:52 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Autonomy
On Nov 21, 2008, at 2:00 PM, Robyn L. Coburn wrote:
> I think what I have is a gulf between my expectations and
> what I insist upon from Jayn in the world and in dealing with others
> (despite insisting with respect if that makes sense) and the extreme
> relaxation of her life at home.
I'm thinking how I tend to be much more tolerant of things my kids do
than their siblings. If my child is singing really loudly, I'll let
her - I'm happy to let her. But a sister will often not hesitate to
say, "Hey, too loud." Jayn has no sibling "setting her straight" and
does have her very very relaxed and tolerant and adoring parents at
home who don't ever have to intervene between her and a sibling and
help them find ways to tolerate each other's annoying behaviors.
I don't really have an answer - but just was trying to think of how
this played out in my house and I think the difference is that there
were always three kids versus one, so it there wasn't as much contrast
between the outside world and our in-home world.
-pam
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.9/1803 - Release Date: 11/21/2008
9:37 AM
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
prism7513
> http://gprime.net/game.php/kailidoscopedrawingWe've been playing with this on and off throughout the day, and
>
> There is one cool toy. I wouldn't say "math" or if you do, don't
> talk about numbers much.
>
discovered other fun ways to play, such as drawing an animal so that
it appears that many animals are chasing one another (or people, etc.)
Snowflakes are an obvious idea, but squiggles and boxes and anything
repeated multiple times takes on a whole new feel of fun! Thanks for
this link!
Deb