Sandra Dodd

I got an e-mail today and have had an exchange. It's become kind of
weird and hostile, so I thought I would share it because it's
interesting in light of some recent discussions about what people
want out of unschoolers. It's long; don't read it it if gets boring.

I've taken off an intro that said the person had read someone else's
unschooling site and called and talked to someone else who told her I
might be able to help.

I'm going to answer the questions in separate e-mails. Feel free to
contribute to those as they come by! I'll blind-copy the mom who
asked, until she joins the list or decides she's not interested
anymore. I know there are newer members of this list who honestly
could use the answers to those questions. I'm willing to write out
answers for groups of interested people, but one-on-one to an
antagonistic person seems a bad use of my time and energy.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------

Honestly, unschooling is NOT for me and my family for many reasons.
I do believe some of the basic principles (learning is fun, children
learn from modeling, etc.) however, as a whole I find that it's core
really breeds self-absorption. I don't see much evidence on any
website that encourages values I find important for my family. I see
a lot of contradiction and don't really see the "freedom" that
unschoolers preach. I see a lot of labels being used and many
assumed perceptions and admonishment of what is labeled as
mainstream. For the record, to admonish, demean or judge anyone
else's way of life really doesn't show compassion and peace.

Next, there is the legality of this way of life. In my state, you
must be a certified teacher to homeschool. For myself, I have no
college education, therefore, to pursue this avenue I would be
breaking the law. Many others in my situation go through a facility
designed for this reason - to assist homeschoolers- but again there
is a curriculum decided by someone other than the parent.

Last, my questions are these:
What is the difference between principles and rules?
What is the course of action when principles are not followed?
What is the difference between parent facilitation and a teacher?
Why do unschoolers negate the need for learning unless an immediate
need exists?
How does unschooling teach children to truly compromise?
How does catering to each child/individual teach family values?
What do you recommend for families that cannot financially keep up
with childrens' demands?
How does unschooling teach a child to assess a situation socially?
Meaning, if a child has been catered to their entire life how do they
learn to give of themselves or take a passive role in a situation?
How does unschooling teach the vital difference between needs and wants?
How does unschooling prepare children for a world that is not catered
to their interests?
How does a child from this lifestyle learn to be independent when
the parent has facilitated their needs, wants and learning from day one?
These are just a few of the many questions I have about this
lifestyle. Any time you could find to answer these would be greatly
appreciated. Thank you!


Inquisitive Mom of Two Boys

------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
(Sandra to the Always Learning list:)

So it turns out she's wrong about the law in her state. Still
believing she wanted to know more about unschooling (even though she
said it wasn't for her), I wrote back in short informational chit-
chatty ways, but I asked this:

---------
In your first e-mail you wrote "Honestly, unschooling is NOT for me
and my family for many reasons." Why, then, are you asking [the
other mom] for help? Why did you send me eleven questions, the
answers to which could take many hours, if you don't want to
unschool? I'll consider answering all your questions if you'll
answer that.

Sandra
==================================================

The response is here:


"I didn't realize I was asking either of you for help. I am doing
just fine in my "mainstream" world. I simply believe that when
people create websites and go on National TV as "advocates" for this
or that and claim superiority over others they should be open to
answering questions. I asked questions because I am curious...isn't
that one of your ideals of unschooling...asking questions about
whatever interests someone? However, I have found that with
unschooling my questions are only answered IF I want to "convert" or
I agree or am searching for an alternative to my current situation."

================================================

I responded:

Do you think I don't answer questions?

http://aboutunschooling.blogspot.com
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
http://groups.google.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion

Those two lists have 1800 and 1500 members. You could join one and
get LOTS of answers to your questions.

-=-. I asked questions because I am curious...isn't that one of your
ideals of unschooling...asking questions about whatever interests
someone? -=-

For my kids, sure!

For strangers who want hours of my time, I'm not unschooling them.
I don't mind people asking questions about unschooling because
they're interested in learning more. I feel no obligation to argue
with people who state that they're doing just fine and that
unschooling isn't for them.

It seems perhaps you have some emotional wound involving unschooling
and you keep scratching at it. What's the deal? [The other mom]
says you hadn't contacted her for 18 months or so, so why did you
write to me today? Have unschoolers been mean to you? Do you have a
website or something you're advocating that unschooling is thwarting
or disturbing?

Sandra

============================================
Reponse:

Sandra,

Very interesting. I understand you are too busy to answer any of my
questions. That's OK. Actually, [the other mom] and I had our phone
conversation a while back...I hadn't counted the time to be honest.
However, we had made contact via IM over the computer more recently
where she suggested I contact you. I had taken time to browse some
sites (including yours) before emailing you.

As for my emotional wounds, I have none related to unschooling.
Interesting jump to conclusions, though. I am just simply curious
about the lifestyle. I didn't realize my questions involved hours of
discussion and that I needed to have a reason to ask them.
Unschoolers are not really accepting of anyone outside of their
community and I find that interesting for a lifestyle that supposedly
promotes peace. I find that any lifestyle lived in one end of the
spectrum or another can be thwarting to some degree. What disturbs
me is the attitude of superiority that the Unschooling Community
seems to hold. There could be some useful techniques or tips from
your lifestyle I could use in my life, however, I will never know
since no one will answer some basic questions. Thank you for your
responses.

=============================================
(Sandra to Always Learning again:)

It turns out, and the woman admitted it, that her first inquiries
were over a year ago. She's stuck on the questions in some unhealthy
way. I'm going to answer them, and I've already sent her a link to
this group. She can reveal herself or not as she wishes, but I'm
uncomfortable being treated in a hostile way in secret. It seems a
little spooky and potentially unsafe. A couple of people do know
who she is, so if I'm discovered ritually murdered, forward this to
the police. (I'm exaggerating my fear, but weirder things have
happened in the world of stalking.)

Questions and answers next.

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

claire.horsley08

This so-called 'inquisitive mom of two boys' is so far from unschooling it's not funny. From
the misperception of unschooling as a 'spoilt' child free-for-all to the adversarial tone and
total lack of openness, you wonder what is motivating her to pick this fight. Her list of
questions (and in fact her entire set of exchanges) shows an intellectual laziness - in that
with some effort she could find/create/understand all the answers herself. No doubt the
answers would make good reading for those exploring the world of unschooling. However,
to really participate in an email exchange or discussion list, a person should first have done a
lot of reading and thinking so that they can bring to the discussion something that is worthy
of people's time and consideration (a point Sandra made in the intro to this list).

Sandra, I hope she's not a stalker but just a person who will disappear when her hostilities
are brought out into the light of day.

Nancy Wooton

On Nov 9, 2008, at 2:30 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> Next, there is the legality of this way of life. In my state, you
> must be a certified teacher to homeschool.

I haven't waded through all the posts/responses yet, but this jumped
out at me: What state is this?? Is there really a state that
requires a parent to be a certified teacher in order to homeschool,
with no way around it?

Nancy

[email protected]

That's not the entire comment that she made. She also said:
"Many others in my situation go through a facility
designed for this reason - to assist homeschoolers- but again there
is a curriculum decided by someone other than the parent."
And from that I am assuming that she means a Church Cover. A
lot of them do have a curriculum that you are forced to use, but not
all of them do. Some are actually "Unschool Friendly" (yeah
right!). At least that's what they tell you up front.
Belinda


At 10:39 AM 11/10/2008, you wrote:


>On Nov 9, 2008, at 2:30 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
>
> > Next, there is the legality of this way of life. In my state, you
> > must be a certified teacher to homeschool.
>
>I haven't waded through all the posts/responses yet, but this jumped
>out at me: What state is this?? Is there really a state that
>requires a parent to be a certified teacher in order to homeschool,
>with no way around it?
>
>Nancy

Pamela Sorooshian

She lives near me, Nancy, here in California. (She's wrong about our
state requiring homeschooling parents to have teacher certification,
of course.)

Her kids have always gone to school and daycare. She started out
responding negatively about unschooling on the message boards at the
Dr. Phil website after Dayna Martin and her family were on his show.
That was around 2 years ago.

It is hard to say what her reason is for continuing to question
unschoolers for years since she is very adamant that she's not
interested in unschooling her own kids.

She's already had a lot of chance to become better informed, but
doesn't seem to have been able to take it in and understand it. And,
because she is quite verbose, she provides us with a lot of evidence
about what the somewhat informed and still disapproving general public
might think about unschooling.

Roxana is in the midst of writing her "Personal Statement" for her
university application and she's written about unschooling. I've been
trying to think about how it is going to come across, given that the
readers are going to very likely be hearing of unschooling for the
first time. Are they going to have knee-jerk negative reactions? Will
it make her more interesting? I just don't know. (They specifically
say to talk about experience of any kind of alternative education.)


-pam


On Nov 10, 2008, at 8:39 AM, Nancy Wooton wrote:

>> Next, there is the legality of this way of life. In my state, you
>> must be a certified teacher to homeschool.
>
> I haven't waded through all the posts/responses yet, but this jumped
> out at me: What state is this?? Is there really a state that
> requires a parent to be a certified teacher in order to homeschool,
> with no way around it?

Jenny C

> So it turns out she's wrong about the law in her state.

Ignorance of laws is never a good defense! But then, it turns out she
is ignorant about a lot of things, including netiquette...

> "I didn't realize I was asking either of you for help. I am doing
> just fine in my "mainstream" world. I simply believe that when
> people create websites and go on National TV as "advocates" for this
> or that and claim superiority over others they should be open to
> answering questions. I asked questions because I am curious...isn't
> that one of your ideals of unschooling...asking questions about
> whatever interests someone? However, I have found that with
> unschooling my questions are only answered IF I want to "convert" or
> I agree or am searching for an alternative to my current situation."


There could be some useful techniques or tips from
> your lifestyle I could use in my life, however, I will never know
> since no one will answer some basic questions. Thank you for your
> responses.
>

Aww, ignorance is bliss...

However, I'm thinking perhaps it's not so blissful when I think about
what her life looks like, spending sooo much time and energy on
something she really dislikes, trying to be spoonfed information that
she wants to spit out and say it's nasty. Well, go find a different
restaurant, or better yet, go cook you own ideas and feed yourself!

alexandriapalonia

What state requires parents to be certified teachers?
I think the one state that required this had it overturned as
unconstitutional.
Andrea

> Next, there is the legality of this way of life. In my state, you
> must be a certified teacher to homeschool. For myself, I have no
> college education, therefore, to pursue this avenue I would be
> breaking the law. Many others in my situation go through a facility
> designed for this reason - to assist homeschoolers- but again there
> is a curriculum decided by someone other than the parent.

Pamela Sorooshian

On Nov 10, 2008, at 9:10 PM, alexandriapalonia wrote:

> What state requires parents to be certified teachers?
> I think the one state that required this had it overturned as
> unconstitutional.
> Andrea

Let's not get going talking about state requirements, but the person
is from California and is ignorant about homeschooling law here.

-pam

alexandriapalonia

Thanks.
(I didn't want to talk about state requirements; the assertion took me
aback, and I didn't see Sandra knock it down, so I got to wondering).
Thanks.
Andrea

> > What state requires parents to be certified teachers?
> > I think the one state that required this had it overturned as
> > unconstitutional.
> > Andrea
>
> Let's not get going talking about state requirements, but the person
> is from California and is ignorant about homeschooling law here.
>
> -pam
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-(I didn't want to talk about state requirements; the assertion
took me
aback, and I didn't see Sandra knock it down, so I got to wondering).
-=-

I was trying not to identify anything about the poster, so I said she
was wrong but didn't say what state (though I knew).

I think it's school that makes people so emotional about unschooling,
whether they love it or hate it. Something about the existence of
unschooling causes people to dissolve inside. All the beliefs and
justifications we've lived with about what we went through and how we
were judged and how we were punished for not finishing homework, and
the shame and bullying some of us experienced (or dished out), and
the relationships with parents and siblings that were triangulated on
school and teachers and grade levels... Some people side with that
against any challenges. They don't want to restructure their innards.

Sandra

Pamela Sorooshian

On Nov 11, 2008, at 6:39 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> the shame and bullying some of us experienced (or dished out)

I didn't dish it out - I was a sensitive and kind and gentle kid. I
was easily embarrassed. I blushed a lot.

I didn't get bullied, because I was athletic, smarter than average but
not a genius, and normal looking.

But I did largely ignore the bullying and meanness that was around me
- I didn't defend the quirky, or klutsy, or not-too-bright, or odd-
looking kids who were mercilessly taunted. I felt horrible about it
then and I STILL remember a number of incidents in detail. I remember
Gail - a very short, dark-haired girl - she was pretty hairy - arms
and backs of her hands and stuff. The other kids really really often
teased her and said she had cooties and the boys dared each other to
pull her hair and (later) to pretend to like her and get her to
believe it and then do something mean to her. I remember standing in
line outside our classroom and kids were catching ladybugs and
surreptitiously sticking them into her frizzy hair.

I could go on. There was a LOT of meanness. I don't remember being
targeted very often, just a little. But I lived in fear of it. And
mostly I spent a lot of time feeling horrible for other kids who were
being shamed and bullied, and I was always feeling awful about myself
for not doing something about it and appearing to condone it by
standing by.

It also seems to me that I had very little respect for most adults (I
BEHAVED very respectfully, but I didn't think much of them) because I
thought they were the ones who should have stopped all the meanness
and they seemed completely oblivious to it. The things kids got
punished for were not these insidious extremely hurtful personal
attacks, but crimes against the school property or talking back to
teachers.

Rosie has been working on a project for Girl Scouts that has to do
with bullying (she's creating a self-defense workshop for adults with
developmental disabilities) so I've also been doing just a bit of
reading about it.

Here is a statement that hit home for me:
"Bullying today is less about children hitting each other than it is
about children being victimized by a culture of meanness." <http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/16/nyregion/nyregionspecial2/16lijour.html
>

Just like we aren't aware that we're breathing air, I wasn't aware of
how much meanness I was immersed in, until I was out of it for a long
time. In fact, it was not really until my own children grew up barely
ever experiencing it - certainly they weren't living day after day
immersed in it.

-pam

prism7513

>
> It also seems to me that I had very little respect for most adults (I
> BEHAVED very respectfully, but I didn't think much of them) because I
> thought they were the ones who should have stopped all the meanness
> and they seemed completely oblivious to it. The things kids got
> punished for were not these insidious extremely hurtful personal
> attacks, but crimes against the school property or talking back to
> teachers.
>

I was told I was being a tattle-tale when I would inform adults that
the other kids were being cruel to me. They never included me in games
during recess, would shun me during prayer time (private school) by
saying, "go ask that group if you can join" until there were no groups
left and I was alone, and making very mean remarks about my naturally
curly hair.

The one time it *did* turn physical I defended myself, and we *both*
got punished equally - being made to sit next to one another at lunch.
To this day I'm not sure why it was okay to let all that go on.
Perhaps they thought that I'd have to deal with it in the "real
world", but the truth is my self esteem probably still suffers from
that time in my life, and at no other time after I left that school
did I face anyone so cruel again (thankfully.)

Perhaps it also has something to do with my desire to make everyone
happy - which is often a no-win situation (I'm not talking my family
here, but people at large - neighbors, parents, friends, acquaintances...)

Deb