Emily Strength

I'm curious what the members of this list think about the research that has been done that shows that children aren't physically capable of true logic and reasoning until the age of 7. In otherwords, that the reasoning part of their brain hasn't developed yet. Do you believe it? How does it affect how you interact with your little ones? How do you handle situations where your child making X choice would mean disaster for something major (like your work), and they don't understand the issues involved or the high stakes? Does it affect whether or not you coerce them? I have more specific questions that I'll ask later.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Nov 8, 2008, at 5:51 PM, Emily Strength wrote:

> I'm curious what the members of this list think about the research
> that has been done that shows that children aren't physically
> capable of true logic and reasoning until the age of 7. In
> otherwords, that the reasoning part of their brain hasn't developed
> yet. Do you believe it? How does it affect how you interact with
> your little ones?

If you'd never seen the research, how would you interact with your
pre-7 yo? Just do that.

Regardless of the research results, the research is trying to explain
behavior that existed before the research. The research didn't cause
children under 7 to suddenly become illogical ;-) They're still the
same as they were before the research.

You interact with kids based on how they respond. If they're not
getting what you're trying to explain, you adjust. They grow. You go
with the flow.

> How do you handle situations where your child making X choice would
> mean disaster for something major (like your work), and they don't
> understand the issues involved or the high stakes?
>
You avoid putting them in situations where you know they can't make
decisions that are safe or sound. Don't set them up to fail.

An 18 mo may be physically capable of walking into the street but
they aren't capable of reasoning about safety so you don't let them
wander into the street. You redirect. You take them to parks where
they can't wander into the street.

> Does it affect whether or not you coerce them? I have more specific
> questions that I'll ask later.
>

I would say no to the coercion but that doesn't really explain
anything. Specific questions will help clarify the philosophy. Then
you can see it in action.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

-=-I'm curious what the members of this list think about the research
that has been done that shows that children aren't physically capable
of true logic and reasoning until the age of 7.-=-

What research? Do you have a link?

Are you referring to Piaget's stages of development? Please bring
links or references when you can.

-=-How does it affect how you interact with your little ones? How do
you handle situations where your child making X choice would mean
disaster for something major (like your work)-=-

This seems to suggest that you think parents sit way back and wait
for a young child to make a choice, and let the choice play out, and
then it's the parent's move. Like some destructive chess game.


-=-...and they don't understand the issues involved or the high
stakes? Does it affect whether or not you coerce them? -=-

Because I don't understand what you might be thinking, please give an
example of how a young child's choice or action could involve
disasterous high stakes.

I never needed to coerce my kids. I'd persuade and reason and make
deals, I'd lure and joke and hug and carry. Sometimes they didn't
want to go somewhere and I'd carry them out and figure out ways to
make it up to them, cheer them up, get them interested in what was
going on.

Give examples, please.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

saturnfire16

Thanks Joyce!


>>>If you'd never seen the research, how would you interact with your
pre-7 yo? Just do that.>>>>



Honestly, if I had never read that (and other things about age
appropriate expectations) I'd still be expecting my almost 3 year old
to be way more logical than she's capable of and getting frustrated
with her for not understanding, after the 300th time, why XYZ isn't
safe. Reading those kinds of things helped me to have more
appropriate expectations.

<<<<I would say no to the coercion but that doesn't really explain
anything. Specific questions will help clarify the philosophy. Then
you can see it in action.
>>>>>





So, here I am understanding that my almost 3 year old isn't
physically capable of logic, but also trying to unschool and have her
be in charge of her own body, time etc. Here's an example:



We're at the park and we need to leave so I can get back home (I work
from home) for an appointment. She's not ready to leave. I took
extra time for this possiblity, explained why I needed to get home,
tried to make the transition slowly. Now, it's crunch time, I've got
to get back, I pick her up and put her in the car. I respected her
need to go to the park, we stayed for longer than I would have liked,
I explained the reason that we needed to leave, so it feels like a
compromise. But of course, it's not really a compromise unless both
parties agree.



But how can she be expected to come to any kind of agreement when she
is not physically capable of empathy or logic? She doesn't
understand time, what an appointment is, why it's important, how the
appointment is part of my job and if I lose my job we'll not only be
unemployed but also homeless. That's way too much to put on a kid
even if she was capable of understanding it.



Now, I know that you might be thinking that a lot of people would use
this as an excuse to control everything in their kids lives. Please
understand, that is not where I'm coming from. I don't control her
sleep, food, interests, learning to let go of tv. I don't "teach"
her anything. I don't make her do chores, hover over her play, or
judge her likes and dislikes.



Everything I read about unschooling is about older kids. How do you
have no coersion and kids being in control of their own bodies, while
still getting your needs met (when they really are needs that have to
be met for the benefit of the whole family)? Especially when they
are little.

Sandra Dodd

-=-Honestly, if I had never read that (and other things about age
appropriate expectations) I'd still be expecting my almost 3 year old
to be way more logical than she's capable of and getting frustrated
with her for not understanding, after the 300th time, why XYZ isn't
safe. Reading those kinds of things helped me to have more
appropriate expectations.-=-



That's a good point. Some of the treatment of babies and small
children is pretty awful. I saw my mom swat my baby half brother,
when I was 19, 20. And she said he understood her perfectly well,
when she was telling him (at less than a year old) to stop doing
whatever (like peeing, or reaching for things).

I tend to assume that everyone who's ever had a baby has read books
about child development.



-=-So, here I am understanding that my almost 3 year old isn't
physically capable of logic, but also trying to unschool and have her
be in charge of her own body, time etc. -=-

Please, PLEASE tell me where in the world or on the internet you got
the idea that a two year old should be "in charge" of anything.
Please. The instances of people coming to this list for us to
"explain" things that never came from this list are increasing, and
I'm brave enough to go to the people who are giving bad information
and ask them to stop it. If you read on my site that a baby (or
anyone) should be "in charge" of something, please let me know where
and I'll go and change it.

-=-That's way too much to put on a kid even if she was capable of
understanding it. -=-

Make leaving more fun than staying. Take her for a little walk away
from the other kids and stuff, and sing to her, show her birds, talk
about something cool that's going to happen later. Swing her
around. Get her laughing. Get YOU laughing. Be a person she thinks
is more interesting that swings or sandboxes or whatever. Bring her
back the next day, or later that night. Parks are nice in the dark,
in the summer, especially.

Find more choices in your life, the huge range between waiting until
she's ready to go and missing an appointment. HUGE range.

-=-I don't control her sleep, food, interests, learning to let go of
tv. I don't "teach" her anything. I don't make her do chores, hover
over her play, or judge her likes and dislikes. -=-

What kind of chores would a two year old be doing anyway?

-=-Everything I read about unschooling is about older kids. How do
you have no coersion and kids being in control of their own bodies,
while still getting your needs met (when they really are needs that
have to be met for the benefit of the whole family)? Especially when
they are little.-=-

About meeting your own needs, if you have an adult partner or another
mom who can trade off some time (or hang out in your house with the
kids while you take a shower, or outside the place where you have an
appointment), and then you do the same for her, that's a way. Find a
mother's helper or babysitter, not to keep the child separate from
you, but to play with her, read to her, take her outside to play,
while you're doing things nearby enough to help if there's a problem.



But this...

-=- How do you have no coersion and kids being in control of their
own bodies...-=-

This rhetoric doesn't come from this list. Please write to me on
the side and tell me where you found it, if you're not comfortable
saying so on the list. If it's something you've extrapolated or
maybe misinterpreted, that's worth considering, too.



Sandra






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Nov 8, 2008, at 10:14 PM, saturnfire16 wrote:

> Honestly, if I had never read that (and other things about age
> appropriate expectations) I'd still be expecting my almost 3 year old
> to be way more logical than she's capable of

I'm glad it helped you. Expectations can interfere with unschooling.
Looking at a child through any lens other than a clear one is going
to get in the way of helping them.

> Reading those kinds of things helped me to have more
> appropriate expectations.
>

For unschooling and for building relationships, observation of who
your child is rather than who you think he is helps. Your son is who
he is regardless of what a book says he is. He's capable of what he
shows he's capable of.

What if you were terrified to speak in public? What if, just because
you're an adult, your husband decided you were a public speaker and
volunteered you to speak before the town meeting about homeschooling,
how would it help you? How would it affect your relationship with
him? What if you told him you were scared? What if you showed him you
were scared by throwing up? What if despite everything he could see
with his eyes he kept seeing you through the lens of a public
speaker? Would his vision, his expectations help you be what you
weren't?

> How do you
> have no coersion and kids being in control of their own bodies, while
> still getting your needs met
>

The park issue has obviously come up a lot. It would be tricky to
search for in the archives, but not impossible. "Park" actually might
work as a search term. "Playground" too. Oh, "transition" might work.
(Which is offered as a suggestion if there aren't a wealth of ideas
that come out.)

There isn't a way to get her to change her wants. Do everything
you're doing to show you do see her need to play as serious. Then
sympathize. Empathize. Don't do the "I'm sorry but ..." That negates
the sympathy. Do explain briefly that someone is expecting to meet
with you and you like to be on time but do sympathize that you
understand she doesn't want to leave.

Also give yourself more time and leave for something better. Get ice
cream before the appointment so *she* has a reason to leave.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

saturnfire16

>
> What research? Do you have a link?
>
> Are you referring to Piaget's stages of development? Please
bring
> links or references when you can.


I'm sorry, I should have given links. And now that I'm trying to
find them, I can't. :( It wasn't anything I read recently. Just
things from an childhood psycology class, links on other parenting
boards. I'll keep looking.

>This seems to suggest that you think parents sit way back and wait
> for a young child to make a choice, and let the choice play out,
and
> then it's the parent's move. Like some destructive chess game.


No, that's not what I think. But I have never been around an
experienced unschooler and their little kids. So, I'm trying to
figure out what it looks like from lists and discussions and essays.
And obviously what it looks like for someone else's family will be
different from mine, and we have to find our own way.

IRL I know 3 kinds of parents
1. Parents who coerce, spank etc.
2. Parents who practice gentle discipline (no spanking, no timeouts,
focus on relationship building, understanding age appropriate
behavior, but still coerce)
3. Parents who practice non-coercive parenting and watch as their
kids damage people, hurt things and do whatever their kid wants as
they brag about how the respect their child's need to throw food at
the waiter or whatever.

Someone on another board I'm on brought up an interesting idea-
unschooling vs. unparenting. Similar to the unschooling vs. not-
schooling that was brought up here recently. Maybe this is what I'm
getting at. People call unschoolers permissive because we "let our
kids do whatever they want." But that's not it. I would call
permissive what I described in #3 above. I don't want to be that
parent. I don't want to "unparent." I don't think most
unschooers "unparent," but I also don't want to coerce. So, I'm
trying to learn how to find that balance. And I think the key is
connection. I'm just trying to find my way, I guess. Putting belief
into practice. And I'm probably not making any sense.

saturnfire16

>
> Please, PLEASE tell me where in the world or on the internet you
got
> the idea that a two year old should be "in charge" of anything.
> Please. The instances of people coming to this list for us to
> "explain" things that never came from this list are increasing,
and
> I'm brave enough to go to the people who are giving bad
information
> and ask them to stop it. If you read on my site that a baby (or
> anyone) should be "in charge" of something, please let me know
where
> and I'll go and change it.


I can see by some of the recent threads and emails you've received
that you're very frustrated by the misrepresentation of unschooling.
I'm not quoting anything from your site or asking you to explain
anything from another source. I'm just throwing my ideas out there
and trying to get the opinion of people who seem to be very involved
and active with their children, have similar parenting views, and who
have older children so they've been there, done that.

By "in charge" I mean in control of her own body, her own space, her
own mind, her time. So, for things like sleep and food etc., that's
easy for me to accomodate. But, naturally, I don't want her "in
charge" of my body and time. So I'm trying to learn how to
compromise, find creative solutions, and get everyone's needs met.


> Make leaving more fun than staying. Take her for a little walk
away
> from the other kids and stuff, and sing to her, show her birds,
talk
> about something cool that's going to happen later. Swing her
> around. Get her laughing. Get YOU laughing. Be a person she
thinks
> is more interesting that swings or sandboxes or whatever. Bring
her
> back the next day, or later that night. Parks are nice in the
dark,
> in the summer, especially.
>
> Find more choices in your life, the huge range between waiting
until
> she's ready to go and missing an appointment. HUGE range.

I had some success with this today! We were at the park again, and
about 20 minutes before we had to leave, I gave her a heads up that
we needed to take a sweatshirt to her daddy who was at work. We were
playing tag, so I slowly worked the game over to the car. She had
fun chasing me to the car, we piled in all laughs and smiles, with me
getting her a snack. This might seem like an easy thing for some of
you. For me, it's big! I'm not playful at all normally, and never
was as a kid. So, I'm having to *learn* how to be playful and
engaging and interesting. Fortunatley, my daughter doesn't judge my
clumsy attempts like an adult would. :)

>
> What kind of chores would a two year old be doing anyway?

I know people who make their 2 and 3 year olds pick up their toys at
the end of the day. I started to be one of them, before realizing
the damage I was doing. I just threw the thing about chores in there
to say that I don't do that, nor do I plan to make her do chores when
she gets older.


>
> But this...
>
> -=- How do you have no coersion and kids being in control of their
> own bodies...-=-
>
> This rhetoric doesn't come from this list. Please write to me on
> the side and tell me where you found it, if you're not comfortable
> saying so on the list. If it's something you've extrapolated or
> maybe misinterpreted, that's worth considering, too.


Maybe I am misinterpreting or just not wording it well. Or maybe
it's an age thing. That's kind of what I was trying to get at with
my first post. I've gotten the understanding of age appropriate
behavior and expectations from the gentle discipline camp. I was
trying to get opinions on it from other unschoolers.

Pamela Sorooshian

On Nov 9, 2008, at 3:57 PM, saturnfire16 wrote:

> I don't think most
> unschooers "unparent," but I also don't want to coerce.


Unschooling isn't noncoercive parenting. Our highest priority is not
"not coercing."

That said, coercion isn't a good way to build good relationships and
it isn't a good way to support happy learning lives.

Coercion doesn't feel good and it can result in angry resistance or
"its-no-use-resisting" apathy. Either way, it tends to block learning.
So, we try to avoid it. Still, sometimes we coerce.

We don't talk about "teaching" because we know that teaching is not
the same as helping our kids learn.
We don't talk about "not coercing," because "not coercing" isn't the
same as helping our kids develop good character.

When your little child is kicking you, please do coerce him into not
doing that. If he's kicking or hitting or biting or pinching another
child, please do coerce him into not doing that. If he's running into
the street, go ahead and coerce him into not doing that. If he's
throwing rocks at your dog, please.....

When you do coerce, try to do it with the least physical force and the
least embarrassment to the child as possible.

If you can use distraction, that's often the best option and becoming
skilled at that is great.

When these situations arise - try to figure out why and how to prevent
them in the future. Plan ahead. Be more attentive. Run through
possible scenarios in your head. Change the environment.

Do not withhold useful information from the child. It has to be in
terms your own child can grasp, so we can't tell you exactly what to
say or do, but you should be aware of what information/message your
child is getting. If your child is kicking you and you pretend not to
notice and keep talking to him about what he wants, what are you
helping him learn?

Yes, if your child is kicking you, you should think about what needs
of his are not being met. But, in the meantime, while you're figuring
that out, stop him from kicking you even if that requires coercion.
You might say something like, "I want to help you, but kicking me is
not okay!" Make him stop, work on what he is wanting, and follow up
by saying, "Next time, no kicking, talk to me instead, okay?" (Again,
you have to adjust the wording to your child's nature and ability to
comprehend.)

If we were perfect at planning ahead; if we always were well rested,
well fed, healthy; if there were no allergies or hormones or irritants
in our lives; if there were no unreasonable bosses or landlords or
relatives - if if if if - then maybe we could design our lives so that
we'd never end up coercing our children.

This is why it is so great to get clear what your priorities in life
really are - is it not coercing no matter what?

-pam

Lyla Wolfenstein

>
> I would call
permissive what I described in #3 above. I don't want to be that
parent. I don't want to "unparent." I don't think most
unschooers "unparent," but I also don't want to coerce. So, I'm
trying to learn how to find that balance. And I think the key is
connection. I'm just trying to find my way, I guess. Putting belief
into practice. And I'm probably not making any sense.



>>



i just heard pam leo speak at a conference (author or "connection parenting" and she synopsized connection parenting beautifully, i think and the difference between that and authoritarian vs. pemissive parenting:



authoritarian parenting is based on fear - the child's fear of losing the parent's love and approval

permissive parenting is based on fear - the parents' fear of losing the child's love and approval

connection parenting is NOT based on fear. it's based on the primacy of connection between parent and child.



Lyla
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-When your little child is kicking you, please do coerce him into not
doing that. If he's kicking or hitting or biting or pinching another
child, please do coerce him into not doing that. If he's running into
the street, go ahead and coerce him into not doing that. If he's
throwing rocks at your dog, please.....-=-



I know that the "TCS" ("Taking Children Seriously") definition of
coercion would cover those example above, but in English without
jargon, I don't think those things are coercion at all.

When a child is kicking, if I pick him up so he can't kick, or if I
stand between him and the object of kicking (if I'm not the kickee
myself), that's prevention or stopping him. I'm not "coercing." I'm
acting directly to cause kicking to cease. Not indirectly by
spanking or threatening, but physically breaking the connection one
way or another. I might hold his leg or turn him around or yell
sharply so he is stunned for a second and I can talk to him.



If he's kicking or hitting or biting or pinching, I have no time for
the subtleties of coercion. I will protect the other child (or dog
or cat) right then, for the good of everyone involved.

I could prevent a child from going into the street with words or
physical restraint. That is not, in plain English usage, "coercion."



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Nov 9, 2008, at 10:18 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> That is not, in plain English usage, "coercion."

My own sense of the word is undoubtedly overly influenced by all the
reading I once did of the "Taking Children Seriously"/Noncoercive
Parenting stuff. They mean the use of force, constraint, control of
any kind - not just physical, either.

I'm not really sure what the plain English usage would be - the
dictionary definition is very broad.

But anyway - I used the word "coerce" over and over to make the point
that we are not promoting the same parenting style as "Taking Children
Seriously"/Noncoercive Parenting which I personally spent a year or
two investigating and considering and came to the conclusion that it
didn't support helping children develop some of the character traits
that I think are important.

I think that is one of the places that misinformation about
unschooling comes from - a confusion between unschooling and
noncoercive parenting.

-pam

Jenny C

> I had some success with this today! We were at the park again, and
> about 20 minutes before we had to leave, I gave her a heads up that
> we needed to take a sweatshirt to her daddy who was at work. We were
> playing tag, so I slowly worked the game over to the car. She had
> fun chasing me to the car, we piled in all laughs and smiles, with me
> getting her a snack. This might seem like an easy thing for some of
> you. For me, it's big! I'm not playful at all normally, and never
> was as a kid. So, I'm having to *learn* how to be playful and
> engaging and interesting. Fortunatley, my daughter doesn't judge my
> clumsy attempts like an adult would. :)


Here's the thing though, you probably would've taken longer to get to
the car, if you would've bossed and demanded for your child to comply,
and you both would've been unhappy. Or you could've physically picked
her up, screaming and crying, and quickly gotten to the car, which is
what a lot of parents do with little kids, simply because they can. The
thing is, once they are too big for that, you've already set the
precedence for leaving=negative experience.

So, the more you do what you wrote above, the easier and easier it will
be and the more pleasant it will be as your child gets older and
associates leaving with other different than whatever they were doing,
yet still pleasant time. Then, on the very rare occasion that you need
to carry out a crying little one, that's all it will be, that very rare
occasion.

Sandra Dodd

-=-I think that is one of the places that misinformation about
unschooling comes from - a confusion between unschooling and
noncoercive parenting.-=-

Probably, and when they expand their definition of "coercive" to
include anything done that's not at the child's insistence (which is
a crazy definition), and then people ask whether I'm coercive or non-
coercive, there's a point where they want one word and I have 500 words.

Coercion is sneaky or cheatery or involves threats. Straightforward
conversation isn't coercion. Treating children as I treat my adult
friends isn't coercion. Blackmail and extortion are the big end of
coercion. Using unfair arguments like doctors so often do (do you
want to take these shots or would you rather die?) is coercion.
Oversimplifying a situation so that there are two choices but they're
not really the only two nor even maybe sensible choices is coercion.

The way this list has talked about choices (choices parents make,
choices kids make) isn't coercion, and neither is it by "TCS"
definition "non coercion." But I don't have any reason to think that
their pure philosophy works well, and I have a flood of evidence that
discovering or creating a large range of choices and deciding in each
moment what to do and why is like another world from the same-old
rules and threats of mainstream parenting.

Sandra






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

saturnfire16

>
> If we were perfect at planning ahead; if we always were well
rested,
> well fed, healthy; if there were no allergies or hormones or
irritants
> in our lives; if there were no unreasonable bosses or landlords or
> relatives - if if if if - then maybe we could design our lives so
that
> we'd never end up coercing our children.
>
> This is why it is so great to get clear what your priorities in
life
> really are - is it not coercing no matter what?


Yes, exactly! I haven't read TCS or most of the other nocoercion
book, but I did read Continuum Concept. I came away wishing I lived
in a society like that. Where people were able to treat their
children with respect without thinking about it. Where it wasn't
a "parenting method" but a way of life. It also works because they
have a tribe, a community, and very little to no contact with outside
influences, and certainly no one who is telling them a different way
to parent. Their whole culture is different, and we just can't mimic
that here.

So, we have to deal with the reality we live in. And really, I
wouldn't want to live in a place with so little diversity and new
things to do and see all the time.

Joanna Murphy

> I had some success with this today! She had
> fun chasing me to the car, we piled in all laughs and smiles, with me
> getting her a snack. This might seem like an easy thing for some of
> you. For me, it's big! I'm not playful at all normally, and never
> was as a kid. So, I'm having to *learn* how to be playful and
> engaging and interesting.

Good for you!!! What you achieved is a HUGE shift in your daughter's world. It IS big--
and good for you for being able to take some advice, find your own way with it and use it
immediately for the better of your lives.

When my oldest was two and I realized that I had a being with his own ideas about things
that didn't always match mine (understatement--LOL) I read the positive discipline books.
They recommended giving choices. I interpreted that advice to mean that he should get to
choose everything, because the more choices the better, right? Very quickly I had him so
freaked out and anxious with choices that life because miserable, and I would wait until
he'd chosen, which could take awhile since he was like a deer in the headlights.

He isn't someone who likes to have choice in the details, only the big picture. My
daughter is completely different, but I didn't know enough then about how to connect with
a 2 yo to know that some children don't give a fig about which socks they put on and
some do.

My point is, you have to develop a feel for what works for YOUR child--not the
hypothetical one, but the one if front of you. For those of us who didn't feel like we had
any instinct from which to draw, it takes practice. lol

Joanna

saturnfire16

> If he's kicking or hitting or biting or pinching, I have no time for
> the subtleties of coercion. I will protect the other child (or dog
> or cat) right then, for the good of everyone involved.
>
> I could prevent a child from going into the street with words or
> physical restraint. That is not, in plain English usage, "coercion."
>


Thanks for that clarification! That's really what I needed to see for
the difference between non-coersive parenting, permissiveness, and
unschooling, connection parenting.

staciheder

> Thanks for that clarification! That's really what I needed to see for
> the difference between non-coersive parenting, permissiveness, and
> unschooling, connection parenting.
>

I have been lurking on this list for over a month. I have read Teach Your Own, An
Uncshooled Life, and the Unschooling Handbook. I am unschooling my three children.
Many posts to this list have been very helpful to me. I am trying to interalize the
principles of unschooling. I am finding myself confused by the overlap in different
philosophies.

After reading the posts on TCS/ non coercive parenting, I realize that I am a little mixed
up about where unschooling ends and TCS begins. Labels like permissiveness, radical
unschooling, connection parenting have me a little confused. Could I get some more
clarification how these different labels relate to pure and simple unschooling?

On what interpersonal issues does an unschooling (but not TCS) parent intervene? I had
an experience early on with a park day group that left me uncertain about this. We were
new to the group, and my daughter asked the group of girls at the park day if she could
play with them. They replied that they did not want to play with her (they were not rude,
just engaged with the group that had always played with).

After a couple of weeks of the same response, I metioned it to one of the mothers, hoping
she might help me find a way to ease the transition (as we were new to the group, and my
daughter was interested in playing with the group). She replied that she would not try to
change her daughter in any way. She said it was her daughters time at the park, and she
only plays with people that interest her. She asked if I would force my child to play with
someone she didn't want to play with. (Of course, I would not - but I didn't see that as the
only option.)

We have attended this park day a few more times, and my daughter has never been
allowed to play with the group of girls her age. She usually plays on her own, or hangs out
with me and the baby. Often we do not attend at all.

->but I don't have any reason to think that
->their pure philosophy works well, and I have a flood of evidence that
->discovering or creating a large range of choices and deciding in each
->moment what to do and why is like another world from the same-old
->rules and threats of mainstream parenting.

Also, the quote above leaves me wondering that if TCS offers a huge range of choices
moment to moment, how does that differ from an unschoolers philosophy on choices.


Staci

Sandra Dodd

-=-> I had some success with this today! We were at the park again, and
> about 20 minutes before we had to leave, I gave her a heads up that
> we needed to take a sweatshirt to her daddy who was at work. We were
> playing tag, so I slowly worked the game over to the car. She had
> fun chasing me to the car, we piled in all laughs and smiles, with me
> getting her a snack. This might seem like an easy thing for some of
> you. For me, it's big! -=-

What I used to do when my kids were having more fun than I was is
that I would make all necessary trips to the car myself, and say my
good-byes, so at the very end there was nothing left to do but lure
them in and go.

Sometimes I was having more fun than they were and they would do that
for me. If they're the ones who needed to be home or somewhere soon
(I remember a time when another kid was going home with us for the
afternoon and they were in a hurry to get to the video games), they
would gather stuff up and I'd be the last thing to lure into the car.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanna Murphy

"...(as we were new to the group, and my daughter was interested in playing with the
group). She replied that she would not try to change her daughter in any way. She said it
was her daughters time at the park, and she only plays with people that interest her. She
asked if I would force my child to play with someone she didn't want to play with. (Of
course, I would not - but I didn't see that as the only option.) "

Staci--

You didn't say whether this park day group is made up of unschoolers, TCS people, or
neither, so clarification might be helpful for context, maybe not.

Anyway, I'm involved with a large unschooler's group about an hour away and have helped
start one locally, and it has always been my experience that the parents are very proactive
in helping new people integrate into the established social fabric. It can be just as difficult
for the moms as it is for the children. lol

The question that springs to my mind is how would that woman's daughter know if she
was interested in your daughter or not if she hasn't really noticed her and played some
with her. That's where the area gets a little gray in some peoples' minds, I guess. In my
opinion, it is to everyone's benefit to help a new playmate join in.

Perhaps that child won't ultimately fit in, but I think that my daughter's life may be
enhanced by the opportunities that a new person brings, so I do believe it is in her
interest to give a new playmate a chance, so I help her find ways to invite a new child in.
She is almost always receptive to someone new when I point out that someone would like
to join her and her friends. She often simply will not notice if I don't point it out. I can't
imagine a group of adults who are so limited in their thinking. Maybe there's a warmer
group out there that you haven't found yet.

That seems like an example of trying to apply a rule/idea to your life that may have
worked for someone else, but isn't very useful.

If I make the worst assumption about that group of girls--that they are excluding your
daughter consistently on purpose--then I think it's a little evil that their parents are not
intervening. They can call it what they will, but in my mind they are feeding into a lot of
the kind of thinking that we want to help our children get beyond. There is a tie-in here
for me with the other discussion about brain development. Perfect example of parents
NOT helping their children use their higher brain functions.

Joanna

Sandra Dodd

-=-I read the positive discipline books.
They recommended giving choices. I interpreted that advice to mean
that he should get to
choose everything, because the more choices the better, right? -=-

Oh yes! If you say "What do you want to eat in the whole world" it's
a hard question, but if you say "Do you want peanut butter or grilled
cheese?" then it's fun and easy. Especially if they can say "I want
mashed potatoes." If you say "Which jacket do you want to wear?"
it's still a choice. "Do you want to wear a jacket or not" isn't
nearly as good a choice, if it's very cold. But that kind of
misinterpretation wastes a lot of people's time and energy, and
unschoolers get accused of this or that when we say "Why didn't you
make sure he was wearing a jacket?"

And someone will say "Well you told me to give him a choice."

eeek.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

>
> Oh yes! If you say "What do you want to eat in the whole world" it's
> a hard question, but if you say "Do you want peanut butter or grilled
> cheese?" then it's fun and easy. Especially if they can say "I want
> mashed potatoes." If you say "Which jacket do you want to wear?"
> it's still a choice. "Do you want to wear a jacket or not" isn't
> nearly as good a choice, if it's very cold. But that kind of
> misinterpretation wastes a lot of people's time and energy, and
> unschoolers get accused of this or that when we say "Why didn't you
> make sure he was wearing a jacket?"
>
I had a big to-do over this very subject on a local list. A mom wrote:

"For example, if my daughter starts to leave the house without a coat
(and I think it would be advisable due to the weather) I will give
her a weather report, i.e., it is supposed to rain today, perhaps a
coat would be good? If she still chooses no coat, then I respect
her choice. Or if she gets cold, I don't go out of my way to change
my plans and go home for a coat. The logical consequences of not
choosing to bring a coat is being cold.

If she demands that I return for her coat, and I give into her, then
I am allowing her to disrespect my needs (to get the doctor's on
time, for example.)"

I felt it was more "teach her a lesson" than "respecting her child's choice." I suggested, as did only one other person, that she could have brought a coat for her kid, in case she changed her mind. Then, her daughter would have discovered that her mother was thinking about her needs, in advance of them. That would have been a nice thing to do.

I also had another long-time unschooler (who is a friend) say that her child would have been mortified if she'd brought a coat for him, when he'd made a decision not to wear one. He would always pack his own stuff and was independent from early on, I gather.

My dd, on the other hand, preferred to depend on me to pick up the slack, in case she made an error in judgment. I kind of thought that was my job as *her* mother, but I didn't respond. By the time I'd thought of it, we'd gotten to the "tea party" stage of "whatever you do is just fine - it's all unschooling." I stopped posting then.

Robin B.

[email protected]

>
> Oh yes! If you say "What do you want to eat in the whole world" it's
> a hard question, but if you say "Do you want peanut butter or grilled
> cheese?" then it's fun and easy. Especially if they can say "I want
> mashed potatoes." If you say "Which jacket do you want to wear?"
> it's still a choice. "Do you want to wear a jacket or not" isn't
> nearly as good a choice, if it's very cold. But that kind of
> misinterpretation wastes a lot of people's time and energy, and
> unschoolers get accused of this or that when we say "Why didn't you
> make sure he was wearing a jacket?"
>
I had a big to-do over this very subject on a local list. Someone asked
specifically about when she tells her girl it's cold out and she might want to
wear her coat. The child decides against it. The mother wanted to know if she
should force her to take one, or make the whole thing a "lesson" about choices,
like "you chose not to bring a coat, guess you'll have to be cold." I said, I'd
take a coat, just in case, and was practically booed off the list. I'd always
felt that my dd could change her mind, and that, as her mum, I could at least be
prepared for that. Most people were for "natural consequences"

Robin Bentley

>
Thinking a bit more about what I said about my dd depending on me in a
way that other kids might not, I realize it sort of flows into a older
reply in my drafts folder. I think the principle of being a child's
partner in the ways that meets *that child's* needs best was what I
was hoping to further discuss on that other list.


> For unschooling and for building relationships, observation of who
> your child is rather than who you think he is helps. Your son is who
> he is regardless of what a book says he is. He's capable of what he
> shows he's capable of.


I think this is important for me to remember whenever I see a
description of how almost-14-year-old girls are, including (and maybe
especially) unschooled girls. My dd rarely fits into the "mature, self-
confident, open-minded, easy to discuss personal/sexual matters with,
thrilled to play with little kids" mold that sometimes seems like the
norm. She's actually more like a 9-year-old boy, if I were to compare
her!

But, as one of my first unschooling mentors wrote, "Comparisons are
odious." So, it is really important to look at who my dd *is*, and not
seeing her as "wanting" or "odd" or "incapable." And, it's obvious to
her that she doesn't fit in with most girls (or boys) her age and she
has said as much, sometimes tearfully, to me. She declares herself
"weird" and alternates between being proud of that and a bit sad about
it. Mostly proud <g>.

I hardly need to point out differences to her by having expectations
of what level of maturity she "ought" to be at. She knows by observing
that it's just not how she is. That doesn't mean we don't talk about
what others might expect of a 13-year-old, or that she doesn't want to
know, but I must be her partner in helping her understand and
negotiate some situations because she isn't at that stage yet to do it
herself. And it feels a bit more complicated these days than it used to.

At the same time, I enjoy who she is *right now*. She's pretty darn
cool.

Robin B.

Sandra Dodd

-=- I am finding myself confused by the overlap in different
philosophies. -=-

I brought the statement above out from the bottom of the paragraph
below:


-=-I have been lurking on this list for over a month. I have read
Teach Your Own, An
Uncshooled Life, and the Unschooling Handbook. I am unschooling my
three children.
Many posts to this list have been very helpful to me. I am trying to
interalize the
principles of unschooling.-=-



Is your middle book above Rue Kream's "Parenting a Free Child: An
Unschooled Life"?

If so, that's the best match for the unschooling discussed here.

John Holt's principles are fantastic and changed my life, but he
wasn't a parent, and so much of what we've come to know about things
like bedtimes and chores and food are kind of a melding of the John
Holt stuff and attachment parenting, which many learned from La Leche
League and others learned other ways, and then expanding on those.
Attachment parenting is about infancy, but if the principles can be
stretched on out, without school putting the brakes on, then you come
to this place of radical unschooling.

Mary Griffith's Unschooling Handbook is more toward academics.

I think those three have complementary information and not much
conflict, if any, but Rue's book has quotes and ideas from people on
this list and others related.

-=-After reading the posts on TCS/ non coercive parenting, I realize
that I am a little mixed up about where unschooling ends and TCS
begins.-=-

I see them as quite separate. TCS isn't of interest to me, and it's
irritating because just as with so many other self-chosen labels,
there's an implication that they take children seriously and no one
else does.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I also had another long-time unschooler (who is a friend) say that
her child would have been mortified if she'd brought a coat for him,
when he'd made a decision not to wear one. He would always pack his
own stuff and was independent from early on, I gather. -=-

She could've stuck one in the trunk of the car without announcing it,
and not mention it unless he said "I wish I'd brought a coat."

Parents have obligations that unschooling can't absolve them of, and
taking care of children's physical needs is one of them. A parent
can't say to a social worker or a judge "I told him to take a coat,
but he didn't want to," if they're saying "It's too cold for a child
to be out without a coat." (They can say it, but they will look like
idiots or neglectful parents, somewhere in that range.)

Unschooling isn't a license to step off the planet.

-=-My dd, on the other hand, preferred to depend on me to pick up the
slack, in case she made an error in judgment.-=-

I expect the same thing of my husband and my kids. If it's cold and
I'm spacing out at the door, or we're leaving in the daylight and
it's going to get dark, SOMEbody in the group should mention it, or
grab a handful of coats or say "It will be cold on the way back."

Sunday morning Keith (52) and Marty (19) were leaving from a bright,
still driveway in Albuquerque, to go to Santa Fe, which is further
north and higher in elevation. I said "Marty, it will be colder in
Santa Fe. It snowed there Friday night." So he said "oh!" and went
and got a heavy long-sleeved shirt to go over his t-shirt. Keith
already had long sleeves. He's older and more experienced. I didn't
"make" Marty get a shirt. I didn't ask him whether he wanted to get
a shirt or not. I gave him the information he needed. We've never
had an antagonistic relationship, so there would've been no benefit
to him of resisting responding to the information. It wasn't one of
us winning and one of us losing.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I said, I'd
take a coat, just in case, and was practically booed off the list.
I'd always
felt that my dd could change her mind, and that, as her mum, I could
at least be
prepared for that. Most people were for "natural consequences"-=-

Is it a parenting list in general or an unschooling list?



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-By "in charge" I mean in control of her own body, her own space, her
own mind, her time. So, for things like sleep and food etc., that's
easy for me to accomodate. -=-

Why should ANYbody be "in charge" or "in control" of her OR you, though?

-=-I can see by some of the recent threads and emails you've received
that you're very frustrated by the misrepresentation of unschooling.
I'm not quoting anything from your site or asking you to explain
anything from another source.-=-

But you are. You're asking questions and putting out ideas that are
not what's been advocated by this list and so they ended up being "do
you still beat your wife" kinds of questions. Either we defend or
deny, but I don't think people here think of it in terms of "in charge."

Sandra






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In the group description it says "for Unschoolers (and unschooler-friendly homeschoolers)" whatever that means.
And the mom who posted the "I gave her a choice" post I quoted is the list owner - <sigh>.

Robin B.

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
> -=-I said, I'd
> take a coat, just in case, and was practically booed off the list.
> I'd always
> felt that my dd could change her mind, and that, as her mum, I could
> at least be
> prepared for that. Most people were for "natural consequences"-=-
>
> Is it a parenting list in general or an unschooling list?
>
>
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Joanna Murphy

"Most people were for "natural consequences""

That's straight out of Positive Discipline and it's stupid! Talk about adversarial parenting
advice. Blech!! Those books sidetracked us for years.

(Maybe I'll express my true opinions one of these days....LOL)

Joanna
>