Sandra Dodd

This came in e-mail, and it sparked up something I've been angsty
about since yesterday, so I can make a set of them. The first is of
a girl who went to school voluntarily, and might come back soon, but
the mom's thoughts about the first grading period:

-=-She has 2 A's, a B and a C (not that I care, but not bad for a kid
that's never done "school work" before). But I found I had to tell
myself not to care. Not because I think the grades reflect anything
but because I wanted to validate that unschooling worked (yuck...that
was/is a hard feeling to fight...my own ego).-=-

I'm supposed to be writing an article for a German parenting
newsletter about how my kids learned higher math. The article is
half written and it's bugging the heck out of me. My answers won't
be what they want. I hope they don't get what they want, honestly.
But I do want to finish my article.

What's bothering me about it the most is that I'm procrastinating and
stalling and feeling bad about it, while I would really like to be
working on my webpages. Those webpages do people good every day. I
like to tweak an old page to match its neighbors, check the links,
fix a typo, announce the changes at
http://aboutunschooling.blogspot.com

That's what I really want to do.
But I took a homework assignment. And part of it leads to Kirby
having gotten the highest test grade when he took a math class, and I
don't want to go there. I do, but I don't. What if he had gotten a
low grade or an average grade? But he didn't. So... There it swirls.

My response was
-=-I understand this well, and I don't think you should feel guilty.
I'll take this quote without names to the list and you can claim it
or leave it anonymous, as you wish.-=-

Sandra

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Pamela Sorooshian

> -=-She has 2 A's, a B and a C (not that I care, but not bad for a kid
> that's never done "school work" before). But I found I had to tell
> myself not to care. Not because I think the grades reflect anything
> but because I wanted to validate that unschooling worked (yuck...that
> was/is a hard feeling to fight...my own ego).-=-


I have kids who started taking some college courses as teenagers. They
took classes in things they loved and really really wanted to do -
voice, ceramics, computer programming, drama, dance. They got A's and
I was proud and satisfied - but I have to say that in the types of
classes they were taking, the A's came from the fact that my kids were
eager to be there and eager to learn, so maybe that they weren't
academic kind of reduced that "ego" factor a bit. Later, first Roya
and then Roxana started having goals of getting a college degree and
starting taking more academic courses. They still got A's, and now it
was from a combination of their own work ethic and the fact that they
were choosing to be there for their own reasons and the fact that they
really did already know a lot - they had a really strong foundation of
general knowledge in which to place what was in the course material.
For example, Roya took a California geography course - we'd traveled
all over California - she was intimately familiar with the mountains
and deserts and oceans and so on. Oh - and pretty much everything they
were being taught in class related in some way to their big passion -
musical theater - learning about the Great Depression in an economics
or history class? They were thinking about Annie <G>. That might sound
silly, but that sense of place and time is valuable and is very very
difficult for people to achieve when studying textbook history.

So - they've gotten good grades and two out of three have chosen to go
to college and I could be just bragging here for the sake of my own
ego. I worry about it coming across that way when I talk about what my
now-grown unschooled kids are doing. But, I think it is good news that
it is possible to step into an academic environment and excel, not in
spite of unschooling, but because of unschooling. I think there are a
zillion high school kids who are channeled into college and have no
good reason to be there. As they have their whole schooled lives, they
are still dancing a dance that was choreographed by someone else. And
it shows. They don't "feel" it - they don't "own" it. Some are
pressured to do well and they work hard - some of that is completely
internalized pressure, but it is still pressure to work hard and get
good grades. That is VERY different than having a desire to learn.

When Roya was in her junior year of college she said to me that she
wished she could get it across to her college friends that if they'd
focus more on learning and less on trying to get good grades that they
WOULD get better grades.

-pam

Sandra Dodd

-=-When Roya was in her junior year of college she said to me that she
wished she could get it across to her college friends that if they'd
focus more on learning and less on trying to get good grades that they
WOULD get better grades.-=-



Oh my gosh. The evil twin of "have to": "I don't have to."



Sandra

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Laureen

Heya

On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 9:05 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> -=-She has 2 A's, a B and a C (not that I care, but not bad for a kid
> that's never done "school work" before). But I found I had to tell
> myself not to care. Not because I think the grades reflect anything
> but because I wanted to validate that unschooling worked (yuck...that
> was/is a hard feeling to fight...my own ego).-=-


IME, this isn't just an unschooling problem. I see moms do this with
elimination communication (EC) all the time. And whatever other
nonmainstream choices the parent is making. You want your child to be a
prodigy to justify the decision you made, and to use them to fend off the
naysayers. But the problem there is that you're using the methodology of the
paradigm your choice rejected, so it's an inherently flawed comparison.

It's taken me three kids worth of doing EC to get to the point where I have
nothing to prove. With my first, when I was most insecure, I was a complete
(thoroughly annoying) evangelist. Now? I don't even mention it. It's just
what it is. With my first, the number of "catches" and "misses" mattered, so
I could justify to people why I was doing this offbeat thing. But if that's
what matters, there's no way you can explain to people the benefit of the
fact that responding to a baby's cues in this way strengthens the
communication abilities, and the trust, and the respect, between a parent
and child. I don't even keep track now. Aurora lets me know she's gotta go,
we head to the potty, and the look on her face, when she's done what she
needs to do, is the best and clearest "thank you" and "justification" for
why I do what I do. And I can't explain that, I just have to show people and
hope they see what I see. And let go of my need to have them see it.

That's what I really want to do.
> But I took a homework assignment. And part of it leads to Kirby
> having gotten the highest test grade when he took a math class, and I
> don't want to go there. I do, but I don't. What if he had gotten a
> low grade or an average grade? But he didn't. So... There it swirls.


I've posted on this list before (and I think it's on your webpage too,
Sandra) about Rowan getting thrown out of swim class for swimming. And I
asked the question, is it wrong to be so proud of your child's rugged
iconoclasm?

It's this very zen thing... the ego involved in both ends of the
externally-imposed judgements of "success" and "failure". Technically, Rowan
"failed" swim class, and all the other parents were quick to tell me that.
But I'm pretty sure I'm the only parent who walked out of that place with a
stronger relationship with my kid when we left than when we started. So my
success was huge, just not in a place that people traditionally look.




--
~~L!

~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~
Writing here:
http://www.theexcellentadventure.com/

Evolving here:
http://www.consciouswoman.org/
~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~


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Robyn L. Coburn

<<<> But I took a homework assignment. And part of it leads to Kirby
> having gotten the highest test grade when he took a math class, and I
> don't want to go there. I do, but I don't. What if he had gotten a
> low grade or an average grade? But he didn't. So... There it swirls.
> >>>>

Although Kirby's grades are now a matter of public record, since you have
mentioned this before in posts, could you avoid that issue by writing that
he took the test and was contented with his results, that they allowed him
to continue towards his goals, that he was satisfied with the experience?
Let people who want to discover the actual grade follow back to your website
to find the information - and then maybe end up pleasantly seduced by the
rest of the site.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com

graberamy

The original quote was from me about Lydia who is trying school for
the first time.

<<<You want your child to be a
prodigy to justify the decision you made, and to use them to fend off the
naysayers. But the problem there is that you're using the methodology
of the
paradigm your choice rejected, so it's an inherently flawed comparison.>>>

Interesting, I don't want her to be a prodigy, but I see what you're
saying...totally.

I don't really care if she gets good grades (unless she cared) but
there's that little voice who wants her to do well to prove me right.
I realize this isn't good...I'm just being honest.

She is my first born and going to a public school that brags about
their high standardized test scores...yuck. I just don't feel these
feelings about Graham (9) who goes to Montessori part time, for lunch
and recess (pretty much that's it). He's not being judged, she
is...and I know I shouldn't care about their judgments.

<<And part of it leads to Kirby
> having gotten the highest test grade when he took a math class, and I
> don't want to go there. I do, but I don't. What if he had gotten a
> low grade or an average grade? But he didn't. So... There it
swirls.>>>

I think you should go there. I'm guessing he was there by choice,
there cause he was interested in the course. Hence those factors are
probably why he did so well.

Like Pam said;

<<But, I think it is good news that
it is possible to step into an academic environment and excel, not in
spite of unschooling, but because of unschooling. >>

The one course Lydia is getting a C in is history a subject that I
found very boring to learn from a textbook. This teacher has a less
then interesting approach to history and definitely sticks to the text
book and has the kids memorize vocab and map facts and things Lydia
just isn't interested in.

So what if Kirby had gotten a low grade or an average grade? How
would that change things?

This list has been quite beneficial to me during this school
experience. It's hard not to get caught up in the school think
mentality at times...like last night at conferences. UGH...that's
another post! This list keeps me grounded and keeps me on my toes
trying to make home a place she wants to be at and hopefully come back
to full time!

amy g
iowa

Sandra Dodd

-=-Let people who want to discover the actual grade follow back to
your website
to find the information - and then maybe end up pleasantly seduced by
the
rest of the site.-=-

The article is to be translated into German. It's a one-shot bit.



Sandra

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Joyce Fetteroll

> Not because I think the grades reflect anything
> but because I wanted to validate that unschooling worked

I think the problem is the word "worked". If unschooling works when a
child freely follows their interests, is unschooling also "working"
when a child gets good grades in a classroom?

It's hard to remove the idea from our heads that performing well at
classroom learning indicates anything other than performing well at
classroom learning. It doesn't indicate that kids can take what
they've learned and apply it to the real world outside of the
classroom. (Obviously educators *want* classroom learning to apply to
the outside world but they're hampered by methods that must
demonstrate learning is happening.)

Unschooled kids are learning through applying while they're already
in the real world. I think what good grades in a classroom for an
unschooler indicate is that real world knowledge sometimes transfers
to the artificial setting of the classroom. I wouldn't always expect
it to for every unschooled child, though.

If classroom learning is leading kids through the zoo in an orderly
fashion, reading all the signs, answering prepared questions and
unschooling learning is kids wandering the zoo as their interest
draws them, sometimes reading (or being read to), observing,
discussing, what are the chances that an unschooled child would be
able to answer a teacher's questions?

I think there we get into a thinking trap. The goal of school is to
get as much of the group to a single destination as the teacher can.
The goal of school is for all the kids to possess the same knowledge.

The goal of unschooling is for kids to grow in their own unique way.
The goal isn't to absorb the same information. There will, though, be
some similar information and skills just because life needs it (like
addition and reading signs and so on.)

So it's not useful to make statements about what unschoolers as a
group can do in school terms since unschooling is about the
individual. *Some* unschoolers interests will have them intersecting
with knowledge on a similar time line as kids in school. That doesn't
indicate unschooling is working, though. It just indicates the
child's nonlinear path allowed him to absorb knowledge in a similar
order to the schooled kids. But for a child whose path went far
afield who has very different knowledge (and can't apply it in the
classroom), it doesn't indicate anything other than their path was
far afield.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

-=-If classroom learning is leading kids through the zoo in an orderly
fashion, reading all the signs, answering prepared questions and
unschooling learning is kids wandering the zoo as their interest
draws them, sometimes reading (or being read to), observing,
discussing, what are the chances that an unschooled child would be
able to answer a teacher's questions?-=-



Depends on the questions. We were at a museum display once on the
science of sports and sports equipment. There was a handout for
teachers to pick up and use and we picked one up to see what it
said. One of the questions was "What color is the ball on the soccer
display" or something totally trivial, just to "see if the kids were
paying attention" or something. The color of the ball had *nothing*
to do with sports or physics. It was busy work. Kids answering the
questions on that form were wasting time they could've been using
actually learning from the displays. :-)



Sandra

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