swissarmy_wife

Skylar recently joined a Lego Mindstorms "First Lego League" Team.
I'm haing a few issues and I need some tips in speaking with adults.

It seems that the other mothers in the group, are very controlling.
At least 2 out of 3. They are all traditional homeschoolers, and when
we went to our first meeting the kids sat and built with the robots
while the moms discussed rules, meetings, structure, blah blah blah.
I was lucky to have Milo, 3, with me to distract me from their
ridiculousness. All I could think was why are we not building with
our children??? They actually made comments about unschooling,
organic learning, and how it didn't work past age 12 and etc. Ugh.

Anyway... I don't know if anyone here has been on an FLL team before
but these moms, especially the moms of the two girls are dead set on
following directions to build. I'm pretty sure that I clearly read
that the children can design and invent a robot to complete a preset
groups of tasks. That they could get lego's from any source as long
as they did not incorporate extra motors.

When I asked why they didn't think the children should try and learn,
build, create, design, etc. They said it would be like "reinventing
the wheel". Dumbfounded.... I didn't know what to say except "isn't
that a good thing?" I mean what if they have a better wheel???

I'd really like to try talking to them, even though it may backfire or
may not go anywhere. But Skylar really wants to create and I'm hoping
for a good experience for him. If he isn't aloud to design and create
and has to follow directions on paper then he'll probably quit. Any
ideas on how to talk to them about this?

Sandra Dodd

=-When I asked why they didn't think the children should try and learn,
build, create, design, etc. They said it would be like "reinventing
the wheel". Dumbfounded.... I didn't know what to say except "isn't
that a good thing?" I mean what if they have a better wheel??? -=-



I think it's the difference between arts and crafts. Art is
freeform, and crafts are the creation of something just like the
model. Art is a waste of time and energy, while "crafts projects"
lead straight to real-life productivity and the ability to follow
directions and not dawdle or expend energy past the minimal
requirements.

If an engineer has already designed a working robot, any good, smart
kid would just follow those directions and be guaranteed to have a
working robot without any messy failure or waste of time. They're
there for their kids to succeed, and following the directions will be
success.



(In the two paragraphs above, except for "I think it's the difference
between arts and crafts," I was speaking for structure-loving mothers
and what kind of justifications they might have for not wanting
"create and design" to be interpretted as "do what you want to do."

-=-If he isn't aloud to design and create and has to follow
directions on paper then he'll probably quit. Any ideas on how to
talk to them about this?-=-

I would say talk to Skylar about what the other moms' thoughts are,
and that he might be the only one doing anything other than the basic
directions. Don't try to change the world to fit him. Help him
understand the world so he can figure out how he wants to fit in and
what parts he'd rather avoid.



Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

swissarmy_wife

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> I would say talk to Skylar about what the other moms' thoughts are,
> and that he might be the only one doing anything other than the basic
> directions.

I did talk with him about it. He will just see how he feels as he
goes along. He is lucky that we borrowed a robot from someone and has
been playing with it 2 days. He is designing, and creating, and
programming at home. I think he wins anyway! :-)

>Don't try to change the world to fit him. Help him
> understand the world so he can figure out how he wants to fit in
>and what parts he'd rather avoid.

I keep trying to reply, I keep typing and deleting. It's just coming
down to whether I want to voice my opinion and help Skylar voice his.
That's the real decision. Everyone does have a voice in this, it's a
team, and as parents were supposed to be encouraging creativity and
teamwork (per the LEGO manual and mine. LOL).

Sandra Dodd

-=-It's just coming
down to whether I want to voice my opinion and help Skylar voice his.
That's the real decision. Everyone does have a voice in this, it's a
team, and as parents were supposed to be encouraging creativity and
teamwork (per the LEGO manual and mine. LOL). -=-



OH! Well that's different. It's not a "majority rules" situation,
then. Pointing out to the whole group that LEGO says this or that is
reasonable and necessary then! I withdraw my other ideas.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Verna

> That's the real decision. Everyone does have a voice in this, it's a
> team, and as parents were supposed to be encouraging creativity and
> teamwork (per the LEGO manual and mine. LOL).
>


I dont know much about LegoLeague. My 2 oldest (5 and 7) are going to
try going to a couple of Odyssy of the Mind meetings. I think they are
similiar in that the kids work as a team, create and tackle a problem.
etc.. They are interested in it and we are going to see how it goes.
I was very encouraged when the organizer wrote me and mentioned there
is a playground at the facility that kids whose loose interest in the
problems. The kids are interested in it so off we go.
Personally, I thought the idea behind all those kinds of things was to
encourage creativity. anyone can just follow directions.

John and Amanda Slater

--- On Wed, 10/29/08, swissarmy_wife <heatherbean@...> wrote:











Skylar recently joined a Lego Mindstorms "First Lego League" Team.

I'm haing a few issues and I need some tips in speaking with adults.







I'd really like to try talking to them, even though it may backfire or

may not go anywhere. But Skylar really wants to create and I'm hoping

for a good experience for him. If he isn't aloud to design and create

and has to follow directions on paper then he'll probably quit. Any

ideas on how to talk to them about this?


****Is there any way you could have your own team? I'm not sure how many kids are required, but maybe you could find enough that are interested in free form legos to make your own entry. 

Anyway, I hope your lego club is better than the one I tried to create, it fell apart because we are not Christian.  The joys of homeschooling in the buckle of the Bible Belt.
AmandaEli 7, Samuel 6 in 7 days





















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Personally, I thought the idea behind all those kinds of things
was to
encourage creativity. anyone can just follow directions. -=-

No, it seems to be rare.

Sometimes directions are daunting and not well presented. (I've just
filled in and mailed an absentee ballot...)

Sometimes the directions are simple and people either over- or
underthink them.

My kids have learned to follow directions from video gaming. There's
not room for creativity in the way you play the game itself, the way
the controllers respond and that. There's no creativity allowed in
Karaoke Revolution. You sing it the way they wanted you to, or you
lose points. There's a LOT of creativity involved in Photoshop and
html coding, both of which Holly knows better and better all the
time, but she also knows you have to be precise in the code and in
the naming and saving of things.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn L. Coburn

>>Don't try to change the world to fit him. Help him
>> understand the world so he can figure out how he wants to fit in
>>and what parts he'd rather avoid.>>>>
>
><<<< It's just coming down to whether I want to voice my opinion and help
>Skylar voice his.
> That's the real decision. Everyone does have a voice in this, it's a
> team, and as parents were supposed to be encouraging creativity and
> teamwork (per the LEGO manual and mine. LOL). >>>>


Part of the question is what is of more value to Skylar - the opportunity to
freely use a bunch of materials he normally doesn't have access to, or the
experience of being part of a group. If the latter, I guess he has to decide
if the following instructions part is worth it.

There have been times, especially in crafting situations, when I have acted
as a shield between Jayn and the instructor by just saying simply and
quietly to that person, "Jayn's just going to do this over here, I think"
with a pleasant smile and some nods. It's not trying to change the
experience for everyone else. It's letting the instructor know that she is
free from needing to attend to Jayn. It's allowing Jayn her free choice.
Usually Jayn would be way ahead of the rest of the group in the making. So
far this has always been met with a pleasant reaction and the other person
backing off.

Without knowing the exact structure of this event (sounds like what Jayn
would want to avoid) perhaps it would work just to separate yourself and
Skylar slightly, if he was agreeable, to say to anyone who asked, "We're
just going to work on something over here for a while." Then perhaps rejoin
the team later. Is it one giant team of everyone? Are there no other kids
that could be on "Skylar's experimenting team" freeing the instruction
followers to be on their own team?

I remember having lego windmill as a child. It had very complex
instructions. For me finally being able to follow the plan and produce the
working windmill in the end (without any leftover pieces!) was an
achievement. A different sort of achievement from creating something of my
own from scratch, and different again from deducing the process from
examining the finished product. I think there's room for all of these
experiences.

If all else fails, can you start your own unschooling chapter of the club?


Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com

swissarmy_wife

Thanks Robyn.

All very good ideas. Most don't fit with the particular situation.
there is only 1 robot. But still really good ideas to think about in
the future.

I got a phone call late in the day yesterday. Oddly enough, the two
women who I was disagreeing with, have daughters that quit the group.
So... problem solved I guess. We will go today and "reinvent the
wheel". :-)


--- In [email protected], "Robyn L. Coburn" <dezigna@...>
wrote:

> Part of the question is what is of more value to Skylar - the
opportunity to
> freely use a bunch of materials he normally doesn't have access to,
or the
> experience of being part of a group. If the latter, I guess he has
to decide
> if the following instructions part is worth it.
>
> There have been times, especially in crafting situations, when I
have acted
> as a shield between Jayn and the instructor by just saying simply and
> quietly to that person, "Jayn's just going to do this over here, I
think"
> with a pleasant smile and some nods. It's not trying to change the
> experience for everyone else. It's letting the instructor know that
she is
> free from needing to attend to Jayn. It's allowing Jayn her free
choice.
> Usually Jayn would be way ahead of the rest of the group in the
making. So
> far this has always been met with a pleasant reaction and the other
person
> backing off.
>
> Without knowing the exact structure of this event (sounds like what
Jayn
> would want to avoid) perhaps it would work just to separate yourself
and
> Skylar slightly, if he was agreeable, to say to anyone who asked,
"We're
> just going to work on something over here for a while." Then perhaps
rejoin
> the team later. Is it one giant team of everyone? Are there no other
kids
> that could be on "Skylar's experimenting team" freeing the instruction
> followers to be on their own team?
>
> I remember having lego windmill as a child. It had very complex
> instructions. For me finally being able to follow the plan and
produce the
> working windmill in the end (without any leftover pieces!) was an
> achievement. A different sort of achievement from creating something
of my
> own from scratch, and different again from deducing the process from
> examining the finished product. I think there's room for all of these
> experiences.
>
> If all else fails, can you start your own unschooling chapter of the
club?
>
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
> www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
> www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
>

unschoolme2

My daughters were on an all girl Lego League. There were several other
teams that all worked through the technical parts together and then
the five girls (it's generally very male dominated) said that they
were tired of fighting with the boys because the boys did not want to
cooperate. The instructor then asked the girls if they wanted to form
an all girls team. The children programmed the robots to perform the
commands within the time limit that they have and the girls actually
wound up winning at the competition because the judges were so
impressed by how they worked together and encouraged one another as a
team. (I'm getting teary-eyed remembering this). For my girls, the
experience was two-fold: they enjoyed the challenges of robotics, but
they relished the opportunity to work cooperatively with a group of
girls on something scientific. They never asked to do Lego League
again, and we are all satisfied with the memories and experience. I
agree that Skylar will let you know what's most important to him, and
whether his needs are being met by this group. If not, perhaps he can
just have fun creating and programming the robot and next year you can
gather a band of unschoolers who more closely share your philosophy.

Sounds like he's having a good time though. I know that sometimes our
objectives as parents aren't the same as our children's objectives.
The arts center where my daughter takes some really creative and
interesting classes is WAY to serious and structured for my liking.
The owners are a wealthy couple, who have deep ties and deeper pockets
in the arts community here. The head mistress was a professional
dancer in her day, and brings the type of discipline that I imagine a
prima ballerina would need. But what a prima ballerina needs, an 8
year old does not. I often want to tell them to take a flying leap,
but my daughter enjoys the classes and doesn't even seem to pay
attention to the "rants and raves" of the administrators. I've learned
to keep my mouth shut, because the administrators aren't harmful, just
annoying.

Africa

--- In [email protected], "swissarmy_wife"
<heatherbean@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Robyn.
>
> All very good ideas. Most don't fit with the particular situation.
> there is only 1 robot. But still really good ideas to think about in
> the future.
>
> I got a phone call late in the day yesterday. Oddly enough, the two
> women who I was disagreeing with, have daughters that quit the group.
> So... problem solved I guess. We will go today and "reinvent the
> wheel". :-)
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "Robyn L. Coburn" <dezigna@>
> wrote:
>
> > Part of the question is what is of more value to Skylar - the
> opportunity to
> > freely use a bunch of materials he normally doesn't have access to,
> or the
> > experience of being part of a group. If the latter, I guess he has
> to decide
> > if the following instructions part is worth it.
> >
> > There have been times, especially in crafting situations, when I
> have acted
> > as a shield between Jayn and the instructor by just saying simply and
> > quietly to that person, "Jayn's just going to do this over here, I
> think"
> > with a pleasant smile and some nods. It's not trying to change the
> > experience for everyone else. It's letting the instructor know that
> she is
> > free from needing to attend to Jayn. It's allowing Jayn her free
> choice.
> > Usually Jayn would be way ahead of the rest of the group in the
> making. So
> > far this has always been met with a pleasant reaction and the other
> person
> > backing off.
> >
> > Without knowing the exact structure of this event (sounds like what
> Jayn
> > would want to avoid) perhaps it would work just to separate yourself
> and
> > Skylar slightly, if he was agreeable, to say to anyone who asked,
> "We're
> > just going to work on something over here for a while." Then perhaps
> rejoin
> > the team later. Is it one giant team of everyone? Are there no other
> kids
> > that could be on "Skylar's experimenting team" freeing the
instruction
> > followers to be on their own team?
> >
> > I remember having lego windmill as a child. It had very complex
> > instructions. For me finally being able to follow the plan and
> produce the
> > working windmill in the end (without any leftover pieces!) was an
> > achievement. A different sort of achievement from creating something
> of my
> > own from scratch, and different again from deducing the process from
> > examining the finished product. I think there's room for all of these
> > experiences.
> >
> > If all else fails, can you start your own unschooling chapter of the
> club?
> >
> >
> > Robyn L. Coburn
> > www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
> > www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
> >
>

M Walker

My son did FLL for two years. There were two of us mothers as coaches, but we really did very little except guide the kids through the administrative steps of the process--the research, presentation, poster and T-shirts. The group decision-making needed a lot of motherly guidance, too!

Neither of us understood how to do the programming, and the kids were just fine with that. We were shocked at the competition when we saw parents doing all the last-minute tweaking while the kids stood by and watched!

Has the theme of the competition been announced yet? Do you have the plan for the playing field? There really is no pre-written guide to follow for solving the various challenges--the kids must invent ways to do that.

Working through pre-designed models might be a useful way to learn the basics of how the programming and the robot work. But at some point, the kids are going to have to invent their own things.

Something we learned is that the scoring depends on much more than just whether the robot succeeds in the tasks. The research project and HOW it is presented is a big factor in the point totals, as is general presentation of the whole team--poster, t-shirt, matching hair ribbons (our team was all boys and they didn't care about any of this!).

Especially important was an ability to answer questions from the judges and show an awareness of what each kid did as an individual and as part of the team. Our boys described days of research as: "We went to the library a few times and got some books." The other coach-mom and I just groaned on the other side of the door! But their robot completed all the tasks, and they were happy with that. They didn't advance in the competition; when we explained to them what they'd have to do to win, they weren't interested! They just wanted to build and program the robot.

- Meg

Ruth Glowacki

<<My 2 oldest (5 and 7) are going to try going to a couple of Odyssy of
the Mind meetings. I think they are similiar in that the kids work as a
team, create and tackle a problem. etc.. They are interested in it and
we are going to see how it goes. I was very encouraged when the
organizer wrote me and mentioned there is a playground at the facility
that kids whose loose interest in the problems. The kids are interested
in it so off we go. Personally, I thought the idea behind all those
kinds of things was to encourage creativity. anyone can just follow
directions. >>

One of the "rules" of Odyssey of the Mind is that if the directions
don't say you can't... you can.
When the kids asked, "But can we..."
I repeated, "You can if you can and it doesn't say you can't. (I
coached a school-based team, so the kids were used to hearing about what
they can't do, shouldn't do.)
The OM problems have all sorts of specific directions. Some are to keep
the competition fair and to make process the work; "Presentations are to
be under 8 minutes." Or "Build a structure out of balsa wood that will
hold weight. Use only wood glue. The structure will be penalized 1
point for every gram over 15 grams." Some of the directions seem
arbitrary but are just part of the game. "Your skit will depict at
least three times periods other than the present time."
OM was one of my gateway experiences towards unschooling... long before
I had children of my own. I saw what kids would/could do when the reins
were less tight. When the spirit of the coach is towards exploration,
creativity, team work, FUN, then OM is a great game to play.
-Ruth-