keeping unschooling free
Heather Madrone
When we first started homeschooling, the unschooling concept
intrigued me. I grappled with it and discussed it and tried
to figure out what it meant and what it didn't mean.
Holt wasn't a big help. Although he described unschooling
a lot, he never defined it. He had a lot of educational
ideas, but he didn't see himself as the inventor of unschooling.
He was more of a cheerleader, describing all the wonderful
ways in which children could learn outside of school.
After a few years, I had enough of a grasp of unschooling that
I didn't need to grapple anymore. I could just do it. Although
I continued to refine my idea of unschooling, I no longer had
any burning desire to pin it down. It was far better just to
enjoy being with my kids.
It bewildered me then to see how people wanted to narrow the
concept of unschooling. Why, I wondered, get out of the school
box just to build yourself another one that is just as rigid
and confining? Isn't the point of unschooling freedom? How can
you be free if you imprison yourself in doctrine?
In the early days, I defined "unschooling" as "child-led learning."
"Child-led learning" works pretty well as a definition, as long as
you don't take it too seriously. It's easy, however, to carry the
concept of child-led to the point where it hampers the contribution
of parents.
As an example, I was in a chocolate mood yesterday. I baked some
chocolate chip cupcakes. When I popped them in the oven, I
realized I was practicing parent-led eating. The children, led
by the scent of baking cupcakes, would eat the physical manifestations
of an idea conceived of and executed by me.
Most unschoolers won't carry the child-led doctrine into food.
When it comes to education, however, parents often think that
there's something wrong with putting themselves into the mix.
Parents ought not to lead, or, indeed, even influence their
children's educations.
If I look to my children instead of the definition, however,
I see that they often enjoy my contributions to their education.
Moreover, because I generally respect their autonomy, they can
tell me when they want me to back off and let them do things for
themselves. They can tell me when my ideas don't work for them.
The children often lead one another into educational experiences.
One child initiates an activity and the other follow. Children
don't mind following a person with a good idea, as long as the
leader is going somewhere they want to go.
"Child-led learning," then, while a good start, is not enough in
and of itself to stand as a whole educational philosophy. It is
an important part of unschooling, but it is not, in itself,
unschooling.
Other people have attempted to define "unschooling" as "non-coercive."
This approach has real appeal, as "non-coercion" sounds like it
would map pretty well to "freedom."
Attempting to practice non-coercive parenting, however, made me
a worse parent. Focusing on coercion was like a centipede focusing
on the action of each of his legs. My attention was directed to
too low a level, defining things as potential problems when there
was nothing wrong with them. Instead of looking to my children for
what they needed and wanted, I looked to the philosophy for what I
ought to do.
Over time, I realized that my children didn't mind many of the
things that folks called coercive. They minded other things,
some of which were not coercive at all. Moreover, some of the
things labeled "coercive" seemed to help our family run more
smoothly and live more happily.
Meanwhile, we'd figured out a sort of system that, while it might
not map to anyone's philosophical ideal of unschooling, worked
pretty well for us. Basically, this involved tossing out most of
the philosophy and focusing on our family's needs. Instead of
worrying about what I shouldn't do, I often found myself thinking
of ways to help the children get and do what they wanted to do.
If everyone was happy, I assumed everything was fine. If someone
wasn't happy, we'd work together to solve their problem.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it." My programmer's mind had a
hard time accepting this maxim. I wanted to probe beneath the
surface, to fix problems that hadn't yet manifested themselves.
Human beings are more than glorified collections of software.
Our lives are organic processes that do not run by simple,
mechanistic rules. We are wondrously complex beings who grow
better in a world that allows time and space for mysterious
processes that work beneath the surface. Too much analysis
can get in the way of living our lives.
A few years back, I noticed that Holt never tried to prescribe
anything to homeschoolers. He described examples of unschooling,
but he never tried to pin it down.
I further realized that there is nothing new or special about
unschooling. Unschooling is just the way most human children
have been raised throughout human history.
What I want now is a Quaker view of unschooling, one that lives
outside of all boxes. Keep unschooling undefined, like Euclid's
point or the Inner Light. Describe unschooling all you want,
but don't create an unschooling doctrine.
Doctrine kills. The only time you can pin something down is
when it has stopped moving and growing, when it is dead. In
the course of defining doctrine, we kill the very thing that
we're trying to describe.
Better to let unschooling live free, growing and changing and
reaching toward the heights of the human soul. Better to feel
unschooling in our own lives, and in our children's eyes.
Better to turn inward, to tap our inner wisdom and ask it what
we ought to do. Better to look to our children and learn from
them how best to raise them.
We don't need ministers, teachers, or experts. Our human biology
has fitted us to parent our children. Our instincts and inner
guides can take us much farther than any creed.
Don't listen to me. I'm a person with my own strengths and
challenges, my own agenda, my own blind spots. Look in your
own heart, and see your path written there. Listen to your
children and hear what they're trying to say.
Keep unschooling free to work its magic in your life.
Heather Madrone <heather@...> http://www.madrone.com
Homeschooling: http://www.madrone.com/Home-ed/homeschool.htm
The Home-Ed List: http://www.madrone.com/Home-ed/helist.html
You can lead a child to learning, but you can't make her think.
intrigued me. I grappled with it and discussed it and tried
to figure out what it meant and what it didn't mean.
Holt wasn't a big help. Although he described unschooling
a lot, he never defined it. He had a lot of educational
ideas, but he didn't see himself as the inventor of unschooling.
He was more of a cheerleader, describing all the wonderful
ways in which children could learn outside of school.
After a few years, I had enough of a grasp of unschooling that
I didn't need to grapple anymore. I could just do it. Although
I continued to refine my idea of unschooling, I no longer had
any burning desire to pin it down. It was far better just to
enjoy being with my kids.
It bewildered me then to see how people wanted to narrow the
concept of unschooling. Why, I wondered, get out of the school
box just to build yourself another one that is just as rigid
and confining? Isn't the point of unschooling freedom? How can
you be free if you imprison yourself in doctrine?
In the early days, I defined "unschooling" as "child-led learning."
"Child-led learning" works pretty well as a definition, as long as
you don't take it too seriously. It's easy, however, to carry the
concept of child-led to the point where it hampers the contribution
of parents.
As an example, I was in a chocolate mood yesterday. I baked some
chocolate chip cupcakes. When I popped them in the oven, I
realized I was practicing parent-led eating. The children, led
by the scent of baking cupcakes, would eat the physical manifestations
of an idea conceived of and executed by me.
Most unschoolers won't carry the child-led doctrine into food.
When it comes to education, however, parents often think that
there's something wrong with putting themselves into the mix.
Parents ought not to lead, or, indeed, even influence their
children's educations.
If I look to my children instead of the definition, however,
I see that they often enjoy my contributions to their education.
Moreover, because I generally respect their autonomy, they can
tell me when they want me to back off and let them do things for
themselves. They can tell me when my ideas don't work for them.
The children often lead one another into educational experiences.
One child initiates an activity and the other follow. Children
don't mind following a person with a good idea, as long as the
leader is going somewhere they want to go.
"Child-led learning," then, while a good start, is not enough in
and of itself to stand as a whole educational philosophy. It is
an important part of unschooling, but it is not, in itself,
unschooling.
Other people have attempted to define "unschooling" as "non-coercive."
This approach has real appeal, as "non-coercion" sounds like it
would map pretty well to "freedom."
Attempting to practice non-coercive parenting, however, made me
a worse parent. Focusing on coercion was like a centipede focusing
on the action of each of his legs. My attention was directed to
too low a level, defining things as potential problems when there
was nothing wrong with them. Instead of looking to my children for
what they needed and wanted, I looked to the philosophy for what I
ought to do.
Over time, I realized that my children didn't mind many of the
things that folks called coercive. They minded other things,
some of which were not coercive at all. Moreover, some of the
things labeled "coercive" seemed to help our family run more
smoothly and live more happily.
Meanwhile, we'd figured out a sort of system that, while it might
not map to anyone's philosophical ideal of unschooling, worked
pretty well for us. Basically, this involved tossing out most of
the philosophy and focusing on our family's needs. Instead of
worrying about what I shouldn't do, I often found myself thinking
of ways to help the children get and do what they wanted to do.
If everyone was happy, I assumed everything was fine. If someone
wasn't happy, we'd work together to solve their problem.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it." My programmer's mind had a
hard time accepting this maxim. I wanted to probe beneath the
surface, to fix problems that hadn't yet manifested themselves.
Human beings are more than glorified collections of software.
Our lives are organic processes that do not run by simple,
mechanistic rules. We are wondrously complex beings who grow
better in a world that allows time and space for mysterious
processes that work beneath the surface. Too much analysis
can get in the way of living our lives.
A few years back, I noticed that Holt never tried to prescribe
anything to homeschoolers. He described examples of unschooling,
but he never tried to pin it down.
I further realized that there is nothing new or special about
unschooling. Unschooling is just the way most human children
have been raised throughout human history.
What I want now is a Quaker view of unschooling, one that lives
outside of all boxes. Keep unschooling undefined, like Euclid's
point or the Inner Light. Describe unschooling all you want,
but don't create an unschooling doctrine.
Doctrine kills. The only time you can pin something down is
when it has stopped moving and growing, when it is dead. In
the course of defining doctrine, we kill the very thing that
we're trying to describe.
Better to let unschooling live free, growing and changing and
reaching toward the heights of the human soul. Better to feel
unschooling in our own lives, and in our children's eyes.
Better to turn inward, to tap our inner wisdom and ask it what
we ought to do. Better to look to our children and learn from
them how best to raise them.
We don't need ministers, teachers, or experts. Our human biology
has fitted us to parent our children. Our instincts and inner
guides can take us much farther than any creed.
Don't listen to me. I'm a person with my own strengths and
challenges, my own agenda, my own blind spots. Look in your
own heart, and see your path written there. Listen to your
children and hear what they're trying to say.
Keep unschooling free to work its magic in your life.
Heather Madrone <heather@...> http://www.madrone.com
Homeschooling: http://www.madrone.com/Home-ed/homeschool.htm
The Home-Ed List: http://www.madrone.com/Home-ed/helist.html
You can lead a child to learning, but you can't make her think.
Fetteroll
on 2/2/02 12:52 PM, Heather Madrone at heather@... wrote:
But if you're certain that the posters here are saying the things you are
arguing against, I'd suggest you need to read more carefully without that
assumption clouding your perception. Please ask people for clarification,
but not with the assumptions you've made. Read also the message boards at
Unschooling.com to see how the posters express unschooling to newbies.
Perhaps that will make things clearer.
You seem to be assuming that defining something creates doctrine. I suppose
if someone accepts that premise, then it becomes self-fulfilling!
I can assure you that, being the highly anal retentive person I am, if I
believed unschooling could be defined by a nicely formatted 12 point
doctrine or some such, I would have come up with a list of must do's years
ago so I wouldn't have to spend 1000+ hours each year explaining unschooling
to people. ;-)
Getting people to understand unschooling takes *lots* of words, *lots* of
examples, *lots* of patient understanding to help them get their thinking
from where it is to unschooling. We could list a bunch of "truths" to be
accepted, but it would mean nothing. Being able to say children will read
when they're ready isn't the same as understanding why that is so and why
the standard belief that chldren must be taught is *not* so.
Perhaps you are naturally more evolved in the natural learning department
than most people who come to unschooling. Most people bring with them an
enormous amount of baggage. It can't be shed just by embracing the
unschooling philosphy. It can't even be shed by "getting" unschooling. It
can take years for people to let go of their baggage. (That baggage so
comforting!)
To shed that baggage, newbies do need something more clear than "do what's
best" or "listen to your chldren". Though those describe unschooling to
unschoolers, they are inadequate to those who are still certain that some
things need to be done to raise decent human beings. People need a huge
amount of work to get to the point where they can understand that "listen to
your children" means more than what those words say.
You also seem to be assuming that defining unschooling limits it.
I see defining unschooling as giving people something to shoot for, a goal
to reach. Though I think if we all could grow up without the mental baggage
of what we're "supposed" to do, then we would all be able to listen to our
children and give them what they need rather than what we parents think they
need. In that case doing what's best for your family would look the same as
unschooling (without the initial struggle to get it!)
If people are assuming that unschooling means hands off, or no adult
directed activities, then they haven't hung around the unschooling forum or
list for long! I've heard of such people -- I've heard of feral children
too! -- but they didn't get the idea from us.
Some here are noncoercive parents, some less coercive, some less coercive
than they once were because of debates ;-). But if you want to argue that
Sarah Lawrence's brand of Taking Children Seriously and unschooling are not
synonomous there may be a handful here (if!) to argue with but you won't be
able to engage even a goodly portion of the list in that debate.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Isn't the point of unschooling freedom? How canYou made a lot of good points Heather! :-)
> you be free if you imprison yourself in doctrine?
But if you're certain that the posters here are saying the things you are
arguing against, I'd suggest you need to read more carefully without that
assumption clouding your perception. Please ask people for clarification,
but not with the assumptions you've made. Read also the message boards at
Unschooling.com to see how the posters express unschooling to newbies.
Perhaps that will make things clearer.
You seem to be assuming that defining something creates doctrine. I suppose
if someone accepts that premise, then it becomes self-fulfilling!
I can assure you that, being the highly anal retentive person I am, if I
believed unschooling could be defined by a nicely formatted 12 point
doctrine or some such, I would have come up with a list of must do's years
ago so I wouldn't have to spend 1000+ hours each year explaining unschooling
to people. ;-)
Getting people to understand unschooling takes *lots* of words, *lots* of
examples, *lots* of patient understanding to help them get their thinking
from where it is to unschooling. We could list a bunch of "truths" to be
accepted, but it would mean nothing. Being able to say children will read
when they're ready isn't the same as understanding why that is so and why
the standard belief that chldren must be taught is *not* so.
Perhaps you are naturally more evolved in the natural learning department
than most people who come to unschooling. Most people bring with them an
enormous amount of baggage. It can't be shed just by embracing the
unschooling philosphy. It can't even be shed by "getting" unschooling. It
can take years for people to let go of their baggage. (That baggage so
comforting!)
To shed that baggage, newbies do need something more clear than "do what's
best" or "listen to your chldren". Though those describe unschooling to
unschoolers, they are inadequate to those who are still certain that some
things need to be done to raise decent human beings. People need a huge
amount of work to get to the point where they can understand that "listen to
your children" means more than what those words say.
You also seem to be assuming that defining unschooling limits it.
I see defining unschooling as giving people something to shoot for, a goal
to reach. Though I think if we all could grow up without the mental baggage
of what we're "supposed" to do, then we would all be able to listen to our
children and give them what they need rather than what we parents think they
need. In that case doing what's best for your family would look the same as
unschooling (without the initial struggle to get it!)
If people are assuming that unschooling means hands off, or no adult
directed activities, then they haven't hung around the unschooling forum or
list for long! I've heard of such people -- I've heard of feral children
too! -- but they didn't get the idea from us.
Some here are noncoercive parents, some less coercive, some less coercive
than they once were because of debates ;-). But if you want to argue that
Sarah Lawrence's brand of Taking Children Seriously and unschooling are not
synonomous there may be a handful here (if!) to argue with but you won't be
able to engage even a goodly portion of the list in that debate.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/2/02 11:22:14 AM, heather@... writes:
<< Holt wasn't a big help. Although he described unschooling
a lot, he never defined it. He had a lot of educational
ideas, >>
I didn't have any definitions. I had two real-life families to watch, and
Holt's descriptions and educational ideas.
If the parents know what is and what isn't leading to idea-getting and the
happy gathering of experience and information, they can live their lives so
that those things are encouraged, and so that learning is a priority.
<In the early days, I defined "unschooling" as "child-led learning."
"Child-led learning" works pretty well as a definition, as long as
you don't take it too seriously. It's easy, however, to carry the
concept of child-led to the point where it hampers the contribution
of parents.>>
I agree with that. I never liked "child-led" because it causes people to
seem to think there are two ways: parent-led or child-led. If it's just
life, nobody has to lead or follow.
-=- Our human biology
has fitted us to parent our children. Our instincts and inner
guides can take us much farther than any creed.-=-
This is inspiring, but I look around me to many examples of very bad
parenting. Today's paper (which I rarely buy, but I needed an ad) had a cool
article by someone I know well! When she said "my grandchildren," I knew
them personally. I was reading it to Holly and said "that's Kyra and
Katrina!"
But their family's stable happiness was on an inside page.
The cover, A2 and A4 were given over to review and analysis of the beating
death of a six year old here last year. His mom's boyfriend was trying to
get the kid to take a bath, just the way the "dad" (as he made the boyr shit.
The articles had lots about statistics of the battered, how many of them
(over 60% or so in ever instance or particular cited in a long article) had
themselves been hit or neglected as children.
Lots of people do want help with their parenting, and they come and ask for
help.
Neither on AOL nor on unschooling.com have I ever seen people press for or
settle on one single definition, but rather five or ten will be pooled
together and people can connect the dots as they will.
It seems that everything peole try to define has some solid unquestionable
examples, and lots of acceptable ones, and some on the edges that people
debate. If a certain song is not quite jazz and not quite blues, there's
some debate. But that doesn't mean that there are no examples that all
listeners would identify as one or the other. Just because not every
example has to be defined is true doesn't mean there shouldn't be some
general definitions. It's not important to me personally whether a song is
rock'n'roll or rock-a-billy or pop, but if for those working in those fields,
they know what instrumentation, drumming variations and rhythms will make the
difference.
Just because some people don't care doesn't mean nobody should care.
Sandra
<< Holt wasn't a big help. Although he described unschooling
a lot, he never defined it. He had a lot of educational
ideas, >>
I didn't have any definitions. I had two real-life families to watch, and
Holt's descriptions and educational ideas.
If the parents know what is and what isn't leading to idea-getting and the
happy gathering of experience and information, they can live their lives so
that those things are encouraged, and so that learning is a priority.
<In the early days, I defined "unschooling" as "child-led learning."
"Child-led learning" works pretty well as a definition, as long as
you don't take it too seriously. It's easy, however, to carry the
concept of child-led to the point where it hampers the contribution
of parents.>>
I agree with that. I never liked "child-led" because it causes people to
seem to think there are two ways: parent-led or child-led. If it's just
life, nobody has to lead or follow.
-=- Our human biology
has fitted us to parent our children. Our instincts and inner
guides can take us much farther than any creed.-=-
This is inspiring, but I look around me to many examples of very bad
parenting. Today's paper (which I rarely buy, but I needed an ad) had a cool
article by someone I know well! When she said "my grandchildren," I knew
them personally. I was reading it to Holly and said "that's Kyra and
Katrina!"
But their family's stable happiness was on an inside page.
The cover, A2 and A4 were given over to review and analysis of the beating
death of a six year old here last year. His mom's boyfriend was trying to
get the kid to take a bath, just the way the "dad" (as he made the boyr shit.
The articles had lots about statistics of the battered, how many of them
(over 60% or so in ever instance or particular cited in a long article) had
themselves been hit or neglected as children.
Lots of people do want help with their parenting, and they come and ask for
help.
Neither on AOL nor on unschooling.com have I ever seen people press for or
settle on one single definition, but rather five or ten will be pooled
together and people can connect the dots as they will.
It seems that everything peole try to define has some solid unquestionable
examples, and lots of acceptable ones, and some on the edges that people
debate. If a certain song is not quite jazz and not quite blues, there's
some debate. But that doesn't mean that there are no examples that all
listeners would identify as one or the other. Just because not every
example has to be defined is true doesn't mean there shouldn't be some
general definitions. It's not important to me personally whether a song is
rock'n'roll or rock-a-billy or pop, but if for those working in those fields,
they know what instrumentation, drumming variations and rhythms will make the
difference.
Just because some people don't care doesn't mean nobody should care.
Sandra
Pat Cald...
From: SandraDodd@...
I have a simple question. Can a parent make learning a priority by removing obstacles that stand in its way?
I can remove obstacles.
I can ask my kids what they want to do today? I can look for signs of interest and find things they would like. I can buy stuff, I can organize stuff, I can display stuff. Does this make learning a priority?
Pat
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>If the parents know what is and what isn't leading to idea-getting and theThis stuff is over my head.
>happy gathering of experience and information, they can live their lives so
>that those things are encouraged, and so that learning is a priority.
I have a simple question. Can a parent make learning a priority by removing obstacles that stand in its way?
I can remove obstacles.
I can ask my kids what they want to do today? I can look for signs of interest and find things they would like. I can buy stuff, I can organize stuff, I can display stuff. Does this make learning a priority?
Pat
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sharon Rudd
I never liked "child-led"
SOS
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
http://auctions.yahoo.com
> because it causes people toJust get the led out!
> seem to think there are two ways: parent-led or
> child-led. If it's just
> life, nobody has to lead or follow.
SOS
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
http://auctions.yahoo.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/2/02 3:18:23 PM, homeschoolmd@... writes:
<< >If the parents know what is and what isn't leading to idea-getting and
the
Maybe I just need to write better!
<<I have a simple question. Can a parent make learning a priority by
removing obstacles that stand in its way? >>
Not JUST by that, I think. (Unless maybe "removing obstacles" would include
the obstacles of no input, no confidence, etc...)
<<I can ask my kids what they want to do today? I can look for signs of
interest and find things they would like. I can buy stuff, I can organize
stuff, I can display stuff. Does this make learning a priority?>>
This is a hard question or I misunderstand it, or possibly both and all.
"Priorities," for me, have to do with the principles used when decisions have
to be made. Some people like new furniture and new cars and matching
dishes, and those are priority considerations. Our family doesn't consider
those things in the top hundred.
Sandra
<< >If the parents know what is and what isn't leading to idea-getting and
the
>happy gathering of experience and information, they can live their lives so<<This stuff is over my head. >>
>that those things are encouraged, and so that learning is a priority.
Maybe I just need to write better!
<<I have a simple question. Can a parent make learning a priority by
removing obstacles that stand in its way? >>
Not JUST by that, I think. (Unless maybe "removing obstacles" would include
the obstacles of no input, no confidence, etc...)
<<I can ask my kids what they want to do today? I can look for signs of
interest and find things they would like. I can buy stuff, I can organize
stuff, I can display stuff. Does this make learning a priority?>>
This is a hard question or I misunderstand it, or possibly both and all.
"Priorities," for me, have to do with the principles used when decisions have
to be made. Some people like new furniture and new cars and matching
dishes, and those are priority considerations. Our family doesn't consider
those things in the top hundred.
Sandra
Pat Cald...
From: SandraDodd@...
<<I can ask my kids what they want to do today? I can look for signs of
interest and find things they would like. I can buy stuff, I can organize
stuff, I can display stuff. Does this make learning a priority?>>
There are also time priorities. This, I think, will evolve as our learning interests begin to expand. This line of thought could open up a can of worms for some because they may start questioning whether we are labeling time spent as good or bad. But I think I know what you mean. It is more of an attitude.
Pat
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<I can ask my kids what they want to do today? I can look for signs of
interest and find things they would like. I can buy stuff, I can organize
stuff, I can display stuff. Does this make learning a priority?>>
>This is a hard question or I misunderstand it, or possibly both and all.Yes, I have made learning materials a financial priority. I used to spend my extra money on home decorating stuff. Everything on the walls had to match and be balanced. Book shelves were never used for books because we would only get books if they were in the library. Things are different now. We had to go buy more book shelves. Kids projects and art are on display. The extra money is spent on books, art supplies, a museum membership, an 8" telescope (my dh has become an amateur astronomer), more computers and enrichment stuff. We never used to go on vacations so this is an area we need to start saving for, you know - see the world.
>"Priorities," for me, have to do with the principles used when decisions have
>to be made. Some people like new furniture and new cars and matching
>dishes, and those are priority considerations. Our family doesn't consider
>those things in the top hundred.
There are also time priorities. This, I think, will evolve as our learning interests begin to expand. This line of thought could open up a can of worms for some because they may start questioning whether we are labeling time spent as good or bad. But I think I know what you mean. It is more of an attitude.
Pat
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/2/02 4:33:28 PM, homeschoolmd@... writes:
<< This line of thought could open up a can of worms for some because they
may start questioning whether we are labeling time spent as good or bad. >>
Maybe just "better" or "worse," or "closer to the goal," or not.
I've heard arguments that there is no such thing as "quality time," just
time. I don't think so. I know it's part of the rhetoric of child custody
battles, but even leaving kids out of it, my husband can be home all weekend
and we can do nothing special, but we're friendly and comfortable, and
relaxed, and we smile at each other and touch as we pass by. That's nice.
But it's not the same, even, as us sitting and doing something together, or
even walking over to the credit union or video store together, cooking
together, telling stories--something that gives us more shared memories, that
builds our "Sharing" or more than just the physical address.
The level and duration of attention we can give friends or kids or projects
isn't just "quantity" or "quality"--there are graduations and values.
Sandra
<< This line of thought could open up a can of worms for some because they
may start questioning whether we are labeling time spent as good or bad. >>
Maybe just "better" or "worse," or "closer to the goal," or not.
I've heard arguments that there is no such thing as "quality time," just
time. I don't think so. I know it's part of the rhetoric of child custody
battles, but even leaving kids out of it, my husband can be home all weekend
and we can do nothing special, but we're friendly and comfortable, and
relaxed, and we smile at each other and touch as we pass by. That's nice.
But it's not the same, even, as us sitting and doing something together, or
even walking over to the credit union or video store together, cooking
together, telling stories--something that gives us more shared memories, that
builds our "Sharing" or more than just the physical address.
The level and duration of attention we can give friends or kids or projects
isn't just "quantity" or "quality"--there are graduations and values.
Sandra
Karin
>>I never liked "child-led"Right on! No need to get dazed and confused.
>> because it causes people to
>> seem to think there are two ways: parent-led or
>> child-led. If it's just
>> life, nobody has to lead or follow.
>Just get the led out!
>SOS
Karin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
On Sat, 02 Feb 2002 09:52:09 -0800 Heather Madrone <heather@...>
writes:
throw in soccer again... Cacie has been trying to improve her drop-kicks.
She had been doing it one way, and it worked sorta well and sometimes
really well. Last week, one of her coaches showed her a different way to
hold the ball, so that it sort of fell onto her foot rather than being
kicked out of her hands. At first, it was really awkward. Her kicks were
lousy, and a lot of the time she missed the ball altogether. Clearly, she
was a "worse kicker" than she had been before she tried to integrate this
new technique. Plus, she said it "felt wrong", it wasn't how she was used
to doing it, she was thinking so hard about how she dropped the ball that
she couldn't think about kicking it.
As she kept practicing, however (and as I bit my tongue really hard to
keep from giving advice, because I knew she was near the end of her
frustration limit, and any time I give advice at that point it knocks her
over the edge), she would occasionally get off a really good kick,
farther than she'd ever kicked before. It was those moments that made
her stick with the process, that and seeing Coach Kyle kick the ball 3/4
of the way down the field... and she is a better kicker now that she's
integrated the technique he taught her.
Granted, children are not soccer balls. Still, I think people often are
used to focusing their attention on one aspect of a process and ignoring
other aspects of that same process, and learning to focus on those other
aspects does feel awkward at first, we have to focus on the mechanics of
something we were doing automatically. I don't think, though, that
because it feels awkward and wrong necessarily means that it is wrong...
sometimes it means that it's new, and different.
There are a lot of aspects of parenting that didn't come naturally to me.
I used to have a really hard time when Cacie would tell me about
something that was making her unhappy, or upset, because I always felt
like I had to "fix it". That's an impossible role, and we were both
pretty frustrated for a while. Gradually, I started watching how a friend
responded to similar situations with her daughter, who was around Cacie's
age and similarly prone to intense emotions. I literally memorized some
of her lines and used them, stuff like "I can see that you're really
upset about that" and "I'm so sorry that happened to you". They were
true, first off, and they seemed to help, her daughter often responded by
talking more about it, and eventually seemed to feel better. At first I
felt really stilted and awkward saying this stuff, I really wanted to
solve it, come up with some things she could do or say... but I didn't,
and just listening and empathizing worked *much* better. Cacie responded
by talking about it more instead of screaming at me, and then she often
figured out her own solution. It was Really Cool, but it felt Really
Weird to start with. Later, I could sort of tap into my own mind and
instincts and think of things to say on my own, but in the beginning it
was very rehearsed.
This may not have much to do with unschooling, but then again it may...
Dar
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writes:
> Attempting to practice non-coercive parenting, however, made meI wonder, though, if that's not just a stage in the whole process. I'll
> a worse parent. Focusing on coercion was like a centipede focusing
> on the action of each of his legs. My attention was directed to
> too low a level, defining things as potential problems when there
> was nothing wrong with them. Instead of looking to my children for
> what they needed and wanted, I looked to the philosophy for what I
> ought to do.
throw in soccer again... Cacie has been trying to improve her drop-kicks.
She had been doing it one way, and it worked sorta well and sometimes
really well. Last week, one of her coaches showed her a different way to
hold the ball, so that it sort of fell onto her foot rather than being
kicked out of her hands. At first, it was really awkward. Her kicks were
lousy, and a lot of the time she missed the ball altogether. Clearly, she
was a "worse kicker" than she had been before she tried to integrate this
new technique. Plus, she said it "felt wrong", it wasn't how she was used
to doing it, she was thinking so hard about how she dropped the ball that
she couldn't think about kicking it.
As she kept practicing, however (and as I bit my tongue really hard to
keep from giving advice, because I knew she was near the end of her
frustration limit, and any time I give advice at that point it knocks her
over the edge), she would occasionally get off a really good kick,
farther than she'd ever kicked before. It was those moments that made
her stick with the process, that and seeing Coach Kyle kick the ball 3/4
of the way down the field... and she is a better kicker now that she's
integrated the technique he taught her.
Granted, children are not soccer balls. Still, I think people often are
used to focusing their attention on one aspect of a process and ignoring
other aspects of that same process, and learning to focus on those other
aspects does feel awkward at first, we have to focus on the mechanics of
something we were doing automatically. I don't think, though, that
because it feels awkward and wrong necessarily means that it is wrong...
sometimes it means that it's new, and different.
There are a lot of aspects of parenting that didn't come naturally to me.
I used to have a really hard time when Cacie would tell me about
something that was making her unhappy, or upset, because I always felt
like I had to "fix it". That's an impossible role, and we were both
pretty frustrated for a while. Gradually, I started watching how a friend
responded to similar situations with her daughter, who was around Cacie's
age and similarly prone to intense emotions. I literally memorized some
of her lines and used them, stuff like "I can see that you're really
upset about that" and "I'm so sorry that happened to you". They were
true, first off, and they seemed to help, her daughter often responded by
talking more about it, and eventually seemed to feel better. At first I
felt really stilted and awkward saying this stuff, I really wanted to
solve it, come up with some things she could do or say... but I didn't,
and just listening and empathizing worked *much* better. Cacie responded
by talking about it more instead of screaming at me, and then she often
figured out her own solution. It was Really Cool, but it felt Really
Weird to start with. Later, I could sort of tap into my own mind and
instincts and think of things to say on my own, but in the beginning it
was very rehearsed.
This may not have much to do with unschooling, but then again it may...
Dar
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/2/02 5:57:15 PM, freeform@... writes:
<< At first I
felt really stilted and awkward saying this stuff...
...This may not have much to do with unschooling, but then again it may...>>
I think it does.
When a family's going from "Not until after dinner" or "clean your plate," to
"Sure, why not?" it has GOT to sound to them like they're in a sitcom at
first, I think.
"Have all the candy you want" a day or two after "One piece of cake is enough
for one day" might seem freakish.
And the same with more academic stuff. "Do I have to write this by hand?"
can be "I'll write it for you," or "No, use the computer," or "just call
them" or whatever, instead of "If you can't write by hand you'll never be
able to get a job. Just DO it, right NOW."
If I say something like that my kids look at me and LAUGH right in my face.
Sometimes I try it just to see what it feels like. But it's not the real
feeling, it's just a joke.
The other night Holly asked what if she didn't do something or other and I
said she'd get a big spanking, or some such. She didn't think for one
nano-second she was in danger of a big spanking.
Sandra
<< At first I
felt really stilted and awkward saying this stuff...
...This may not have much to do with unschooling, but then again it may...>>
I think it does.
When a family's going from "Not until after dinner" or "clean your plate," to
"Sure, why not?" it has GOT to sound to them like they're in a sitcom at
first, I think.
"Have all the candy you want" a day or two after "One piece of cake is enough
for one day" might seem freakish.
And the same with more academic stuff. "Do I have to write this by hand?"
can be "I'll write it for you," or "No, use the computer," or "just call
them" or whatever, instead of "If you can't write by hand you'll never be
able to get a job. Just DO it, right NOW."
If I say something like that my kids look at me and LAUGH right in my face.
Sometimes I try it just to see what it feels like. But it's not the real
feeling, it's just a joke.
The other night Holly asked what if she didn't do something or other and I
said she'd get a big spanking, or some such. She didn't think for one
nano-second she was in danger of a big spanking.
Sandra
Heather Madrone
--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...> wrote:
so. Most of the people I'm arguing with are probably not even on
this list. Quite a few of them are earlier versions of myself.
a definition of unschooling that doesn't limit or mislead people.
A lot of the arguments I've seen about unschooling have been because
terms like "child-led learning" have led people to believe that
we're asking children to recreate Western civilization from a pocket
knife and some parachute silk.
Recently, I've encountered the Quaker idea that outward forms can
become empty pretty quickly. Humans tend to focus on the outward
form instead of on the underlying essential reality that created
the form in the first place. I'm intrigued by this idea.
There's certainly plenty of Eastern and Western thought that supports
the idea the pinning something down with words tends to destroy it.
Taoists and Zen Buddhists have something like this idea. When we draw
a map, we sometimes forget that the map is not really the territory.
a virtue out of necessity.
only unschooling one child.
Most children, I agree, learn to read just fine on their own. Some
children, however, do need extra help. I can no more deny that extra
help to my child who needs it than I can deny my other children the
ability to fly on their own wings.
with a woman who had worked with Magda Gerber (a chief proponent of
unschooling principles for young children). I also live in an area
where people have been unschooling since 1970. I had lots of local
mentors.
By the time we started unschooling for real, it was just an extension
of what we'd already been doing as parents. The ideas of freedom
and respect were already in place, ready to be extended into academia.
My oldest was also a born unschooler. Get out of her way, and she
is absolutely amazing. She was really the one who convinced me that
unschooling was the way to go.
My second child is different in many ways. She's more of a social
learner. She likes more adult-led activities and needs more hands-on
teaching. So I've had to learn to meet her needs, too.
My third child is like my first. He does best teaching himself.
The baby of the family seems to be more like #2.
Most of the people I know who've started unschooling take a year or
two to get going. After that, it's fine-tuning.
I think that people need to start where they are and take the next
step. I'm not sure that I know where they need to go. I have a
hard enough time figuring out where *I* need to go.
ways that limit options. I've seen people (I've even been one)
who try to take a definition of unschooling and use it in a
prescriptive way. If something doesn't fit the definition, they
won't do it.
My unschooling mentors (who have been at it for 30 years and are
now helping their kids raise their own unschooling families)
didn't give me any rules. They simply said, "Maybe it would
work for you to try this." They dropped little hints to me
when I was confused. They trusted me to figure it out for
myself. They also gave me a lot of appreciation for the path
I was taking. They were very gentle and brought me to unschooling
by unschooling me.
It seems to me that, if you don't at some point get the essence
of unschooling, all the words in the world won't make a difference.
The natural learning potential of human children is truly amazing.
I can't imagine how a parent could watch that and not step
back, awed and humbled by how well it works.
Get a hit of that, and everything else follows naturally.
I think examples are probably better than definitions). I think, though,
that I'd rather see unschooling unfold naturally in people's lives,
even if it takes longer, than emerge from a struggle.
Also, I'm not sure that "unschooling" ought to be a goal in and of
itself. It's just a vehicle, and it's not for everyone.
Heather Madrone <heather@...> http://www.madrone.com
Homeschooling: http://www.madrone.com/Home-ed/homeschool.htm
The Home-Ed List: http://www.madrone.com/Home-ed/helist.html
You can lead a child to learning, but you can't make her think.
>on 2/2/02 12:52 PM, Heather Madrone at heather@m... wrote:I'm sure that many of my arguments have been brewing for 9 years or
>
> > Isn't the point of unschooling freedom? How can
> > you be free if you imprison yourself in doctrine?
>
>You made a lot of good points Heather! :-)
>
>But if you're certain that the posters here are saying the things you are
>arguing against, I'd suggest you need to read more carefully without that
>assumption clouding your perception. Please ask people for clarification,
>but not with the assumptions you've made. Read also the message boards at
>Unschooling.com to see how the posters express unschooling to newbies.
>Perhaps that will make things clearer.
so. Most of the people I'm arguing with are probably not even on
this list. Quite a few of them are earlier versions of myself.
>You seem to be assuming that defining something creates doctrine. I supposeI love to define things. I just haven't been able to come up with
>if someone accepts that premise, then it becomes self-fulfilling!
a definition of unschooling that doesn't limit or mislead people.
A lot of the arguments I've seen about unschooling have been because
terms like "child-led learning" have led people to believe that
we're asking children to recreate Western civilization from a pocket
knife and some parachute silk.
Recently, I've encountered the Quaker idea that outward forms can
become empty pretty quickly. Humans tend to focus on the outward
form instead of on the underlying essential reality that created
the form in the first place. I'm intrigued by this idea.
There's certainly plenty of Eastern and Western thought that supports
the idea the pinning something down with words tends to destroy it.
Taoists and Zen Buddhists have something like this idea. When we draw
a map, we sometimes forget that the map is not really the territory.
>I can assure you that, being the highly anal retentive person I am, if II share your frustration. Perhaps that's why I'm trying to make
>believed unschooling could be defined by a nicely formatted 12 point
>doctrine or some such, I would have come up with a list of must do's years
>ago so I wouldn't have to spend 1000+ hours each year explaining unschooling
>to people. ;-)
a virtue out of necessity.
>Getting people to understand unschooling takes *lots* of words, *lots* ofI was so much more certain of these unschooling truths when I was
>examples, *lots* of patient understanding to help them get their thinking
>from where it is to unschooling. We could list a bunch of "truths" to be
>accepted, but it would mean nothing. Being able to say children will read
>when they're ready isn't the same as understanding why that is so and why
>the standard belief that chldren must be taught is *not* so.
only unschooling one child.
Most children, I agree, learn to read just fine on their own. Some
children, however, do need extra help. I can no more deny that extra
help to my child who needs it than I can deny my other children the
ability to fly on their own wings.
>Perhaps you are naturally more evolved in the natural learning departmentI was very fortunate, actually. When my eldest was a baby, I hooked up
>than most people who come to unschooling.
with a woman who had worked with Magda Gerber (a chief proponent of
unschooling principles for young children). I also live in an area
where people have been unschooling since 1970. I had lots of local
mentors.
By the time we started unschooling for real, it was just an extension
of what we'd already been doing as parents. The ideas of freedom
and respect were already in place, ready to be extended into academia.
My oldest was also a born unschooler. Get out of her way, and she
is absolutely amazing. She was really the one who convinced me that
unschooling was the way to go.
My second child is different in many ways. She's more of a social
learner. She likes more adult-led activities and needs more hands-on
teaching. So I've had to learn to meet her needs, too.
My third child is like my first. He does best teaching himself.
The baby of the family seems to be more like #2.
>Most people bring with them anI think it takes most of us a lifetime.
>enormous amount of baggage. It can't be shed just by embracing the
>unschooling philosphy. It can't even be shed by "getting" unschooling. It
>can take years for people to let go of their baggage. (That baggage so
>comforting!)
Most of the people I know who've started unschooling take a year or
two to get going. After that, it's fine-tuning.
>To shed that baggage, newbies do need something more clear than "do what'sDo you think that there is only one valid way to raise children?
>best" or "listen to your chldren". Though those describe unschooling to
>unschoolers, they are inadequate to those who are still certain that some
>things need to be done to raise decent human beings. People need a huge
>amount of work to get to the point where they can understand that "listen to
>your children" means more than what those words say.
I think that people need to start where they are and take the next
step. I'm not sure that I know where they need to go. I have a
hard enough time figuring out where *I* need to go.
>You also seem to be assuming that defining unschooling limits it.It's not an assumption. I've seen people define unschooling in
ways that limit options. I've seen people (I've even been one)
who try to take a definition of unschooling and use it in a
prescriptive way. If something doesn't fit the definition, they
won't do it.
My unschooling mentors (who have been at it for 30 years and are
now helping their kids raise their own unschooling families)
didn't give me any rules. They simply said, "Maybe it would
work for you to try this." They dropped little hints to me
when I was confused. They trusted me to figure it out for
myself. They also gave me a lot of appreciation for the path
I was taking. They were very gentle and brought me to unschooling
by unschooling me.
It seems to me that, if you don't at some point get the essence
of unschooling, all the words in the world won't make a difference.
The natural learning potential of human children is truly amazing.
I can't imagine how a parent could watch that and not step
back, awed and humbled by how well it works.
Get a hit of that, and everything else follows naturally.
>I see defining unschooling as giving people something to shoot for, a goalI don't know. To some extent, I can see what you're saying (although
>to reach. Though I think if we all could grow up without the mental baggage
>of what we're "supposed" to do, then we would all be able to listen to our
>children and give them what they need rather than what we parents think they
>need. In that case doing what's best for your family would look the same as
>unschooling (without the initial struggle to get it!)
I think examples are probably better than definitions). I think, though,
that I'd rather see unschooling unfold naturally in people's lives,
even if it takes longer, than emerge from a struggle.
Also, I'm not sure that "unschooling" ought to be a goal in and of
itself. It's just a vehicle, and it's not for everyone.
Heather Madrone <heather@...> http://www.madrone.com
Homeschooling: http://www.madrone.com/Home-ed/homeschool.htm
The Home-Ed List: http://www.madrone.com/Home-ed/helist.html
You can lead a child to learning, but you can't make her think.
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/2/02 10:06:09 PM, heather@... writes:
<< I can't imagine how a parent could watch that and not step
back, awed and humbled by how well it works. >>
I wish I couldn't. I wish I hadn't seen so much really harmful parenting,
justified by tradition and religion, by parents who were not thinking, who
considered children brats, sneaky, "other."
-=-Also, I'm not sure that "unschooling" ought to be a goal in and of
itself. It's just a vehicle, and it's not for everyone.-=-
Sometimes parents are panicking and they NEED a vehicle to get them out of
the road, out of the wasteland, out of the swamp.
It's not for everyone. Those whose kids are vacant-eyed or unimaginative or
cynical (especially if they learned it from their parents' shushing them,
telling them their ideas are dumb or unimportant, etc.) aren't prime
candidates.
Holly called, crying, for me to come get her from a sleepover. Although she
met these kids at a homeschooling meeting, they cannot homeschool, and would
never be able to unschool, because things are boring and stupid at their
house. They promised swimming that didn't happen. They promised food, and
that was forgotten. The kids insulted and fought and her hostess went to
sleep. She called home, and has since then rented movies and a Nintendo
game, eaten a quesadilla made just for her, helped her dad make a fire, and
is watching Saturday Night Live with him. That replaced fighting over making
a fort with chairs and a blanket.
I'm rambling.
But people who Do want to know about unschooling come to unschooling.com, and
they don't want people there to say "there's no real definition, we can't
tell you what it is, take your time and figure it out, you have a lifetime."
Sandra
<< I can't imagine how a parent could watch that and not step
back, awed and humbled by how well it works. >>
I wish I couldn't. I wish I hadn't seen so much really harmful parenting,
justified by tradition and religion, by parents who were not thinking, who
considered children brats, sneaky, "other."
-=-Also, I'm not sure that "unschooling" ought to be a goal in and of
itself. It's just a vehicle, and it's not for everyone.-=-
Sometimes parents are panicking and they NEED a vehicle to get them out of
the road, out of the wasteland, out of the swamp.
It's not for everyone. Those whose kids are vacant-eyed or unimaginative or
cynical (especially if they learned it from their parents' shushing them,
telling them their ideas are dumb or unimportant, etc.) aren't prime
candidates.
Holly called, crying, for me to come get her from a sleepover. Although she
met these kids at a homeschooling meeting, they cannot homeschool, and would
never be able to unschool, because things are boring and stupid at their
house. They promised swimming that didn't happen. They promised food, and
that was forgotten. The kids insulted and fought and her hostess went to
sleep. She called home, and has since then rented movies and a Nintendo
game, eaten a quesadilla made just for her, helped her dad make a fire, and
is watching Saturday Night Live with him. That replaced fighting over making
a fort with chairs and a blanket.
I'm rambling.
But people who Do want to know about unschooling come to unschooling.com, and
they don't want people there to say "there's no real definition, we can't
tell you what it is, take your time and figure it out, you have a lifetime."
Sandra
madrone95006
--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
I think that real change comes gradually, with a lot of thought and
experimentation. I think that adults as well as children need to
find their own ways. The sooner people start standing on their own
feet and thinking things through for themselves, the sooner they'll
find solutions that work for them.
When we think things through for ourselves, we really own the
knowledge that we eventually get. It's ours in a way that no
secondhand knowledge can ever be.
If unschooling is good enough for kids, it ought to work pretty well
for adults, too.
--hmm
> But people who Do want to know about unschooling come tounschooling.com, and
> they don't want people there to say "there's no real definition, wecan't
> tell you what it is, take your time and figure it out, you have alifetime."
>Sounds honest and true to me.
> Sandra
I think that real change comes gradually, with a lot of thought and
experimentation. I think that adults as well as children need to
find their own ways. The sooner people start standing on their own
feet and thinking things through for themselves, the sooner they'll
find solutions that work for them.
When we think things through for ourselves, we really own the
knowledge that we eventually get. It's ours in a way that no
secondhand knowledge can ever be.
If unschooling is good enough for kids, it ought to work pretty well
for adults, too.
--hmm
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/3/02 12:50:58 AM, heather@... writes:
<< When we think things through for ourselves, we really own the
knowledge that we eventually get. >>
Where do you start, though?
And some people are courageous leaders or pioneer explorers, and MOST people
are not.
<<> But people who Do want to know about unschooling come to
unschooling.com, and
Sounds cruel, to me, for people who are asked for help to say "figure it out
on your own."
Probably what I'm reading isn't what you meant to convey.
Sandra
<< When we think things through for ourselves, we really own the
knowledge that we eventually get. >>
Where do you start, though?
And some people are courageous leaders or pioneer explorers, and MOST people
are not.
<<> But people who Do want to know about unschooling come to
unschooling.com, and
> they don't want people there to say "there's no real definition, wecan't
> tell you what it is, take your time and figure it out, you have alifetime."
><<Sounds honest and true to me.>>
> Sandra
Sounds cruel, to me, for people who are asked for help to say "figure it out
on your own."
Probably what I'm reading isn't what you meant to convey.
Sandra
madrone95006
--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
The only place you can start is exactly where you are.
I'm not saying that we can't provide raw materials, a
conducive environment, information, and even the value
of experience. I just think that unschoolers especially
ought to encourage other people to use those raw materials
to make their own creations, rather than encouraging them
to copy our creations.
I don't believe in modeling art projects for kids,
either.
explorers?
help at all and giving them step-by-step instructions.
When I was pregnant with my third child, my midwife told
me that she knew she'd done a good job at a birth when the
mother told her "I did it all myself. You might as well
have stayed home."
This lady works hard. She helps women in all sorts of
practical and emotional ways. Her goal throughout,
however, is to empower the woman so she can do her own
birth.
one pole, I'm embracing the opposite pole. There's usually
a whole lot of territory in between. Black and white aren't
the only options. We can use all the shades of gray between,
and then there's the color palate.
So, please, don't assume that when I say:
<<This seems to be shifting the argument from the merits of the case
--Heather
> In a message dated 2/3/02 12:50:58 AM, heather@m... writes:How about at birth?
> << When we think things through for ourselves, we really own the
> knowledge that we eventually get. >>
>
> Where do you start, though?
The only place you can start is exactly where you are.
I'm not saying that we can't provide raw materials, a
conducive environment, information, and even the value
of experience. I just think that unschoolers especially
ought to encourage other people to use those raw materials
to make their own creations, rather than encouraging them
to copy our creations.
I don't believe in modeling art projects for kids,
either.
> And some people are courageous leaders or pioneer explorers, andMOST people
> are not.How do you think people become courageous leaders or pioneer
explorers?
> <<> But people who Do want to know about unschooling come towe
> unschooling.com, and
> > they don't want people there to say "there's no real definition,
> can'tsay "figure it out
> > tell you what it is, take your time and figure it out, you have a
> lifetime."
> >
> > Sandra
>
> <<Sounds honest and true to me.>>
>
> Sounds cruel, to me, for people who are asked for help to
> on your own."There's a whole lot of territory between giving them no
help at all and giving them step-by-step instructions.
When I was pregnant with my third child, my midwife told
me that she knew she'd done a good job at a birth when the
mother told her "I did it all myself. You might as well
have stayed home."
This lady works hard. She helps women in all sorts of
practical and emotional ways. Her goal throughout,
however, is to empower the woman so she can do her own
birth.
> Probably what I'm reading isn't what you meant to convey.I think, perhaps, that you're thinking that by rejecting
one pole, I'm embracing the opposite pole. There's usually
a whole lot of territory in between. Black and white aren't
the only options. We can use all the shades of gray between,
and then there's the color palate.
So, please, don't assume that when I say:
<<This seems to be shifting the argument from the merits of the case
>to an appeal to authority. I'm allergic to argument from authority;I mean:
>it makes me break out in rebellion.>>
>Too bad. You'll follow people who haven't earned or been given anyyou'll give
>authority, just to avoid "experts." Sounds like in your judgment
>more weight to those who know less.when there are so very many other options to choose from.
--Heather
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/3/02 12:59:53 PM, heather@... writes:
<< How about at birth? >>
Yours or the baby's?
<<How do you think people become courageous leaders or pioneer
explorers?.>
Genetics. Nature. Not having it shamed out of them if they did have the
ability.
Not all people can carry a tune.
More people can carry a tune than can be leaders or independent pioneers.
<<There's a whole lot of territory between giving them no
help at all and giving them step-by-step instructions.>>
Where are these step-by-step instructions?
Not in Mary Griffith's books.
Not in John Holt's books.
Not in Linda Dobson's books.
Sandra
<< How about at birth? >>
Yours or the baby's?
<<How do you think people become courageous leaders or pioneer
explorers?.>
Genetics. Nature. Not having it shamed out of them if they did have the
ability.
Not all people can carry a tune.
More people can carry a tune than can be leaders or independent pioneers.
<<There's a whole lot of territory between giving them no
help at all and giving them step-by-step instructions.>>
Where are these step-by-step instructions?
Not in Mary Griffith's books.
Not in John Holt's books.
Not in Linda Dobson's books.
Sandra
madrone95006
--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
--hmm
>Yes.
> In a message dated 2/3/02 12:59:53 PM, heather@m... writes:
>
> << How about at birth? >>
>
> Yours or the baby's?
--hmm
Earth Witch
> -=- Our human biologyI think that the reason there are people who are doing
> has fitted us to parent our children. Our instincts
> and inner
> guides can take us much farther than any creed.-=-
>
>>>> This is inspiring, but I look around me to many
>>>> examples of very bad
>>>> parenting.
poorly at parenting is because they do not follow
their instincts. It can be very confusing for parents
when there are thousands of 'experts' telling them
this way is best, and all the 'experts' have a
different way. Parents, often out of fear they will
not be good parents and lack of confidence, put their
trust in this 'experts' and end up thoroughly confused
and less confident than ever. It is hard to overcome
that fear and a lot of people are taught that
instincts are bad and should not be followed. Every
mother I have known has the instinct to go and pick up
their baby when the baby is crying. It is natural.
Yet, many do not do it because they have been told it
is wrong, it will "spoil the child"....they begin to
believe their instincts will be damaging in some way
to their child. So, they follow some rule to make
themsleves 'good' parents.
Kitrina
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
http://auctions.yahoo.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/3/2002 4:52:40 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
what the other side is. Maybe I missed it, but I've never seen unschoolers do
anything but do what you're saying they should do - encourage people to
listen to LOTS of stories and ideas and, at the same time, to think about
their OWN kids and their OWN family's lifestyle and environment and put
things together in their OWN way.
Are you referring to discussions here on this list or somewhere else? I've
heard people saying, "You might want to argue less and listen more to the
anecdotes that long-time unschoolers are willing to tell because you can
learn something from them." But I didn't hear anybody saying, "Copy me."
--pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
> I'm not saying that we can't provide raw materials, aHeather - you sound like you're arguing something, but I can't get a grip on
> conducive environment, information, and even the value
> of experience. I just think that unschoolers especially
> ought to encourage other people to use those raw materials
> to make their own creations, rather than encouraging them
> to copy our creations.
what the other side is. Maybe I missed it, but I've never seen unschoolers do
anything but do what you're saying they should do - encourage people to
listen to LOTS of stories and ideas and, at the same time, to think about
their OWN kids and their OWN family's lifestyle and environment and put
things together in their OWN way.
Are you referring to discussions here on this list or somewhere else? I've
heard people saying, "You might want to argue less and listen more to the
anecdotes that long-time unschoolers are willing to tell because you can
learn something from them." But I didn't hear anybody saying, "Copy me."
--pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heather Madrone
--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., PSoroosh@a... wrote:
something, expanding on something, or writing about things I've been
thinking about.
I have been musing about the possibility of deliberately keeping
unschooling undefined. Most of the impetus for that comes from:
* Not having been able to come up with a good definition in
9 years. A bad definition seems to me worse than no
definition at all.
* Seeing how much power certain undefined concepts continue
to have for centuries after people refuse to define them.
* Seeing posts on this list claim that X, Y, or Z wasn't
unschooling. This seems like a pointless exercise to me,
one that distracts from the more important issue of what
is best for the children.
I believe that Sandra and I have been discussing whether unschooling
needs a definition or not. I believe that Sandra's position is that
there are many benefits to a definition. My current position is that
it might be a good idea to keep unschooling as undefined as Holt kept
it.
We have also touched on whether parents can think for themselves and
whether parental instincts, listening, and so forth are good enough
guides for parental action. Do parents really need an external
philosophy or can they drive their own lives? Will they, if given
gentle encouragement, come to the truth on their own, or must someone
else give it to them piecemeal?
It is my impression that I have a far more positive view of the
capacities of parents than Sandra, Joyce, and others on this list.
I have felt cast in the role of Pollyanna, although it is fairly
common in my experience for people to come to unschooling gently
and gradually.
I think that sketches the area of the discussion. I'd prefer to
think of it as an exploration of the territory rather than an
argument. There's been a lot of food for thought on both sides.
in the abstract. It sounded to me like Sandra and Joyce were
talking about being very directive with new parents. I got the
impression that Sandra thought that most people can't think for
themselves and so need expert advice in order to make changes in
their lives.
It is quite possible that I have simply not seen enough of
Sandra's views to put them in context.
ought to listen to your elders and betters." This struck me, and
strikes me, as patronizing, and probably infuriating to the young
things who are being spoken to.
It is quite possible that I mis-heard what was being said. It's
easy to misinterpret online posts, but I have caught hints of the
same attitude in subsequent posts. Again, it's possible that my
view was colored by the first post I saw to this list, so I'm trying
to suspend judgement until I have more information.
Heather Madrone <heather@...> http://www.madrone.com
Homeschooling: http://www.madrone.com/Home-ed/homeschool.htm
The Home-Ed List: http://www.madrone.com/Home-ed/helist.html
You can lead a child to learning, but you can't make her think.
>In a message dated 2/3/2002 4:52:40 PM Pacific Standard Time,It's quite possible I'm not arguing at all. I might be clarifying
>AlwaysLearning@y... writes:
> > I'm not saying that we can't provide raw materials, a
> > conducive environment, information, and even the value
> > of experience. I just think that unschoolers especially
> > ought to encourage other people to use those raw materials
> > to make their own creations, rather than encouraging them
> > to copy our creations.
>
>Heather - you sound like you're arguing something, but I can't get a
>grip on what the other side is.
something, expanding on something, or writing about things I've been
thinking about.
I have been musing about the possibility of deliberately keeping
unschooling undefined. Most of the impetus for that comes from:
* Not having been able to come up with a good definition in
9 years. A bad definition seems to me worse than no
definition at all.
* Seeing how much power certain undefined concepts continue
to have for centuries after people refuse to define them.
* Seeing posts on this list claim that X, Y, or Z wasn't
unschooling. This seems like a pointless exercise to me,
one that distracts from the more important issue of what
is best for the children.
I believe that Sandra and I have been discussing whether unschooling
needs a definition or not. I believe that Sandra's position is that
there are many benefits to a definition. My current position is that
it might be a good idea to keep unschooling as undefined as Holt kept
it.
We have also touched on whether parents can think for themselves and
whether parental instincts, listening, and so forth are good enough
guides for parental action. Do parents really need an external
philosophy or can they drive their own lives? Will they, if given
gentle encouragement, come to the truth on their own, or must someone
else give it to them piecemeal?
It is my impression that I have a far more positive view of the
capacities of parents than Sandra, Joyce, and others on this list.
I have felt cast in the role of Pollyanna, although it is fairly
common in my experience for people to come to unschooling gently
and gradually.
I think that sketches the area of the discussion. I'd prefer to
think of it as an exploration of the territory rather than an
argument. There's been a lot of food for thought on both sides.
>Maybe I missed it, but I've never seen unschoolers do anything butI think that this is one of the problems with discussing things
>do what you're saying they should do - encourage people to
>listen to LOTS of stories and ideas and, at the same time, to
>think about their OWN kids and their OWN family's lifestyle and
>environment and put things together in their OWN way.
in the abstract. It sounded to me like Sandra and Joyce were
talking about being very directive with new parents. I got the
impression that Sandra thought that most people can't think for
themselves and so need expert advice in order to make changes in
their lives.
It is quite possible that I have simply not seen enough of
Sandra's views to put them in context.
>I've heard people saying, "You might want to argue less and listen more toWhat I heard had a different emotional tone, close to "You young things
>the anecdotes that long-time unschoolers are willing to tell because you
>can learn something from them." But I didn't hear anybody saying, "Copy
>me."
ought to listen to your elders and betters." This struck me, and
strikes me, as patronizing, and probably infuriating to the young
things who are being spoken to.
It is quite possible that I mis-heard what was being said. It's
easy to misinterpret online posts, but I have caught hints of the
same attitude in subsequent posts. Again, it's possible that my
view was colored by the first post I saw to this list, so I'm trying
to suspend judgement until I have more information.
Heather Madrone <heather@...> http://www.madrone.com
Homeschooling: http://www.madrone.com/Home-ed/homeschool.htm
The Home-Ed List: http://www.madrone.com/Home-ed/helist.html
You can lead a child to learning, but you can't make her think.
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/3/02 11:23:44 PM, heather@... writes:
<< It is quite possible that I have simply not seen enough of
Sandra's views to put them in context. >>
Most of the people on this list, when it first formed, came because I formed
it. It's my party. You're welcome to be here, but if you don't have a
context for my views, please either wait and read more, or go to
SandraDodd.com/unschooling, or to unschooling.com. If you're not interested
in looking at those things, I'd understand, but I would like the benefit of
the doubt if you're unwilling to look further.
<<Again, it's possible that my
view was colored by the first post I saw to this list, so I'm trying
to suspend judgement until I have more information.>>
Suspending judgment is usually a quieter matter than a long post falsely
summarizing belief and statement.
My request to the large batch of new members to this group, a number of whom
were self-admittedly new to unschooling, or self-admittedly parents of
toddlers, was that they suspend judgment--that they wait to see what was
going on and to see who knew what before they jumped on us as a group and on
our beliefs. I didn't get my way. The point was hammered paper thin, along
with the patience of several of the regulars.
Sandra
<< It is quite possible that I have simply not seen enough of
Sandra's views to put them in context. >>
Most of the people on this list, when it first formed, came because I formed
it. It's my party. You're welcome to be here, but if you don't have a
context for my views, please either wait and read more, or go to
SandraDodd.com/unschooling, or to unschooling.com. If you're not interested
in looking at those things, I'd understand, but I would like the benefit of
the doubt if you're unwilling to look further.
<<Again, it's possible that my
view was colored by the first post I saw to this list, so I'm trying
to suspend judgement until I have more information.>>
Suspending judgment is usually a quieter matter than a long post falsely
summarizing belief and statement.
My request to the large batch of new members to this group, a number of whom
were self-admittedly new to unschooling, or self-admittedly parents of
toddlers, was that they suspend judgment--that they wait to see what was
going on and to see who knew what before they jumped on us as a group and on
our beliefs. I didn't get my way. The point was hammered paper thin, along
with the patience of several of the regulars.
Sandra
Fetteroll
on 2/4/02 1:23 AM, Heather Madrone at heather@... wrote:
years I've been on line. There are many people who would agree with you.
But, before you bring the argument here, a little history of *this* list
would probably be helpful. Sandra started this list recently and the people
who initially followed her here are many of the ones who *liked* and
*benefited* from Sandra's and other's more direct approach to getting
unschooling and came for more of the same. So an argument that pointing out
"that's not unschooling" isn't the best approach won't fly *here* because a
whole slew of living examples who *did* benefit from it are right here. It
would sort of be like wandering into a vegan list and suggesting the people
might want to be a little less hard line and loosen up where food is
concerned if they want more people to get vegetarianism.
There are probably people here who came from Yahoo or heard about it on
Unschooling.com (or someplace else?) who don't necessarily like hard
questioning or debate or having what they do held up to public examiniation.
They will probably be uncomfortable here. Maybe some who thought they didn't
like debate will realize they do. Maybe some will see it as fighting and
leave.
There is something unique offered here and it isn't to everyone's liking.
But to make it to more people's liking would take away what the people who
initially came here hoped to find. There are gentler ways to present
unschooling. There are people who will benefit from it. There are people who
will slowly get unschooling that way, and some who will stop part way when
they reach their comfort zone. But that will leave out the people who do
like a more direct approach. But they can come here because that's what's
done here. :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I believe that Sandra and I have been discussing whether unschoolingThere are many people who have made the same argument over the many (7+?)
> needs a definition or not. I believe that Sandra's position is that
> there are many benefits to a definition. My current position is that
> it might be a good idea to keep unschooling as undefined as Holt kept
> it.
years I've been on line. There are many people who would agree with you.
But, before you bring the argument here, a little history of *this* list
would probably be helpful. Sandra started this list recently and the people
who initially followed her here are many of the ones who *liked* and
*benefited* from Sandra's and other's more direct approach to getting
unschooling and came for more of the same. So an argument that pointing out
"that's not unschooling" isn't the best approach won't fly *here* because a
whole slew of living examples who *did* benefit from it are right here. It
would sort of be like wandering into a vegan list and suggesting the people
might want to be a little less hard line and loosen up where food is
concerned if they want more people to get vegetarianism.
There are probably people here who came from Yahoo or heard about it on
Unschooling.com (or someplace else?) who don't necessarily like hard
questioning or debate or having what they do held up to public examiniation.
They will probably be uncomfortable here. Maybe some who thought they didn't
like debate will realize they do. Maybe some will see it as fighting and
leave.
There is something unique offered here and it isn't to everyone's liking.
But to make it to more people's liking would take away what the people who
initially came here hoped to find. There are gentler ways to present
unschooling. There are people who will benefit from it. There are people who
will slowly get unschooling that way, and some who will stop part way when
they reach their comfort zone. But that will leave out the people who do
like a more direct approach. But they can come here because that's what's
done here. :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
On Sun, 03 Feb 2002 22:23:16 -0800 Heather Madrone <heather@...>
writes:
fiercely, who think spanking is best for children, who think grounding
and restricting and punishment is best for children. There are those who
think dealing with bully's at school is best for children, so they can
learn how to live in the real world. There are more extreme examples,
too.
Sometimes people who come to unschooling think they have it. They think
they get it. When their child shows an interest in insects, they run
right out and buy that unit study. They let their kid play all day
except for those two hours he has to sit down with the math text book.
That is not unschooling, and if a person wants to understand I don't
think it's helpful to let them go on thinking it is.
I wouldn't know how to define unschooling so clearly and precisely that
everyone would have real understanding. But it only seems reasonable to
try to make it clearer for those who are trying to understand.
I always get in trouble with analogy's but I'm going to try one here. If
I wanted to make a cake, and had never baked or cooked before, a cake
recipe that just said - do what ever seems best to you, use your
imagination - probably wouldn't be that helpful. If my friend, who
always had lovely cakes ( devil's food? ) had given me this recipe, I
would have to assume cake just didn't work for my family.
It would have been much more helpful to have an ingredients list and a
plan for putting them together.
Ok, kids are not cakes, and maybe there's no ingredients list for
unschooling, but I would hope, before I pour a bottle of vinegar in my
batter, someone who knows about cakes would stop me. I would hope,
before I add a text book or take away TV, someone who knows about
unschooling would stop me.
and make choices that are really bad for their kids. There is a whole
population of parents out there who think playground bully's are just a
natural part of growing up. They think having a terrible year or two or
ten at school is just the way life is.
kids whose lives could be so much better. I know so many parents, not
really *getting* or caring about what's going on with their kids.
huge change in thinking, such a giant step, that people often need
guidance. It's easy to get lost when your going someplace you've never
been before. Having a guide, or even a map might mean the difference
between getting there happily and not getting there at all.
are, who openly admitted he'd never read them. Asking new unschoolers
to gain a little more understanding before jumping to conclusions doesn't
seem unreasonable. That's all that was. No one here would deliberately
discount someone's wisdom simply because they are young. Most of us wish
we'd gotten the whole thing much sooner ourselves. It's inspiring to see
young parents who seem to have a really natural understanding of this
concept. But someone, young or old, who believes they have an
understanding of unschooling, and still wants to place restrictions on
their children, really may have things to learn yet.
Your post was really beautiful. It really spoke to me. My own
understanding of unschooling came naturally, gradually, thankfully before
my son ever went to school or had a taste of text books. I'm still
gaining understanding. But I've seen that it's not always a natural
thing with some parents, and for them and for myself, I'm really glad for
the wisdom of people like Sandra.
Deb L
writes:
> * Seeing posts on this list claim that X, Y, or Z wasn'tThere are some parents, really nice people who love their children
> unschooling. This seems like a pointless exercise to me,
> one that distracts from the more important issue of what
> is best for the children.
fiercely, who think spanking is best for children, who think grounding
and restricting and punishment is best for children. There are those who
think dealing with bully's at school is best for children, so they can
learn how to live in the real world. There are more extreme examples,
too.
Sometimes people who come to unschooling think they have it. They think
they get it. When their child shows an interest in insects, they run
right out and buy that unit study. They let their kid play all day
except for those two hours he has to sit down with the math text book.
That is not unschooling, and if a person wants to understand I don't
think it's helpful to let them go on thinking it is.
I wouldn't know how to define unschooling so clearly and precisely that
everyone would have real understanding. But it only seems reasonable to
try to make it clearer for those who are trying to understand.
I always get in trouble with analogy's but I'm going to try one here. If
I wanted to make a cake, and had never baked or cooked before, a cake
recipe that just said - do what ever seems best to you, use your
imagination - probably wouldn't be that helpful. If my friend, who
always had lovely cakes ( devil's food? ) had given me this recipe, I
would have to assume cake just didn't work for my family.
It would have been much more helpful to have an ingredients list and a
plan for putting them together.
Ok, kids are not cakes, and maybe there's no ingredients list for
unschooling, but I would hope, before I pour a bottle of vinegar in my
batter, someone who knows about cakes would stop me. I would hope,
before I add a text book or take away TV, someone who knows about
unschooling would stop me.
> We have also touched on whether parents can think for themselves andI'm sorry to say, I know way more parents who listen to their instincts,
> whether parental instincts, listening, and so forth are good enough
> guides for parental action. Do parents really need an external
> philosophy or can they drive their own lives? Will they, if given
> gentle encouragement, come to the truth on their own, or must
> someone
> else give it to them piecemeal?
and make choices that are really bad for their kids. There is a whole
population of parents out there who think playground bully's are just a
natural part of growing up. They think having a terrible year or two or
ten at school is just the way life is.
> It is my impression that I have a far more positive view of theI really envy you this. I wish this was my experience. I know so many
> capacities of parents than Sandra, Joyce, and others on this list.
> I have felt cast in the role of Pollyanna, although it is fairly
> common in my experience for people to come to unschooling gently
> and gradually.
kids whose lives could be so much better. I know so many parents, not
really *getting* or caring about what's going on with their kids.
> I got theI don't think so. I think Sandra understands that unschooling is such a
> impression that Sandra thought that most people can't think for
> themselves and so need expert advice in order to make changes in
> their lives.
huge change in thinking, such a giant step, that people often need
guidance. It's easy to get lost when your going someplace you've never
been before. Having a guide, or even a map might mean the difference
between getting there happily and not getting there at all.
> What I heard had a different emotional tone, close to "You youngWe had some church guy here crying about how terrible Harry Potter books
> things
> ought to listen to your elders and betters." This struck me, and
> strikes me, as patronizing, and probably infuriating to the young
> things who are being spoken to.
are, who openly admitted he'd never read them. Asking new unschoolers
to gain a little more understanding before jumping to conclusions doesn't
seem unreasonable. That's all that was. No one here would deliberately
discount someone's wisdom simply because they are young. Most of us wish
we'd gotten the whole thing much sooner ourselves. It's inspiring to see
young parents who seem to have a really natural understanding of this
concept. But someone, young or old, who believes they have an
understanding of unschooling, and still wants to place restrictions on
their children, really may have things to learn yet.
Your post was really beautiful. It really spoke to me. My own
understanding of unschooling came naturally, gradually, thankfully before
my son ever went to school or had a taste of text books. I'm still
gaining understanding. But I've seen that it's not always a natural
thing with some parents, and for them and for myself, I'm really glad for
the wisdom of people like Sandra.
Deb L
Karin
>What I heard had a different emotional tone, close to "You young thingsOkay, I am a 37 yo "young thing" and in this case I have enjoyed listening to my elders. As a newer unschooler, I have learned a lot from the discussion about keeping unschooling free and also defining unschooling this past weekend. I want to thank all those who contributed to the conversation and have kept it going.
>ought to listen to your elders and betters." This struck me, and
>strikes me, as patronizing, and probably infuriating to the young
>things who are being spoken to. >>
always learning,
Karin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nancy Wooton
WARNING - long post ahead!
on 2/3/02 10:23 PM, Heather Madrone at heather@... wrote:
Some people *are* able to decide how to raise their kids, how to
school/homeschool/unschool them, etc. On the other hand, some of us were so
well-schooled we don't believe we are allowed to make those decisions; our
wiser elders have already done that, and we are failing our children and our
society if we step out of line. We are bad if we don't do as we're told.
Not every person was shamed into behaving, but a lot of us were.
Sounds like you are one of the lucky ones.
I decided to have children *after* reading Susan Schaeffer Macaulay's "For
the Children's Sake." She was Francis Schaeffer's daughter, and I'd already
read most of his and his wife's books, so she had credibility with me, based
on that. She writes about the Charlotte Mason method and her own
experiences as a homeschooled kid, although her parents used Calvert School.
My own fear of school was so great, I didn't have the nerve to even consider
parenthood until I learned that it was possible to never send your child to
school, and therefore, I would never have to talk to a principal or teacher.
Once my daughter was 6, I had to "start schooling," since that was the age
of enrollment in CA. I didn't feel prepared to "do Charlotte Mason," so I
chose the other curriculum Schaeffer mentioned, Calvert School. They
advertised in National Geographic, so that meant they had to be good, right?
And I dove into Calvert, did every page every day, and my dd got gold seals
indicating 100% correct on her tests, which, of course, we sent in to the
expert teacher to grade. I had to write evaluations of her reading, and
made sure she sounded good, because I was so afraid I might be viewed as a
failure and bad.
First grade went great (except for that one day when I locked dd in the
schoolroom until she completed her language worksheet -- I *knew* she could
*do it* if only she *would*), so we ordered second grade. It arrived about
3 weeks after we completed first, and dd wanted to jump right in. And I
dutifully read page one of the big teacher's manual and insisted we do
lesson one. The problem was, we hadn't taken three months off to forget
most of first grade, but the books assumed we had. The math book started
with matching number stickers to pictures. Dd had been doing 3-digit
subtraction, and could have started half-way through the book.
But no, the manual said lesson one, and by golly, we were going to DO lesson
one. I would be bad if we didn't. We battled through 40 boring lessons,
and I realized dd would NOT get a perfect gold seal on her first test!!! I
would be bad if she didn't. So...
... Dad stepped in. He'd found a new plaything called AOL, and, feeling
guilty because he's the only one playing with it, tries a keyword
"homeschooling." He shows it to me, shows me how to download folder
messages by flashsession so we won't break the budget, and I start exploring
message boards. First, I find one for Calvert School users, and am told I
don't really have to use the teacher service, and it's ok to use a different
handwriting program (I hated Calvert Script), and it's ok to skip lessons
and even to do the whole geography book in one day like dd wanted, rather
than making it the reward once a week as the teacher's manual suggested.
That alone was mindblowing. I could use the material in a way other than as
instructed by the experts? I could change something to suit -- myself??
Then I started looking at some of the other folders. I made friends with a
Charlotte Mason user (one expert enough to be a seminar speaker!), and
learned it was OK to relax, to adapt materials as I saw fit. I wrote snail
mail letters to other homeschoolers of my newly adopted religion, asking if
it was OK to be more relaxed, if Charlotte Mason was suitable. One warned
against anything too radical, but assured me CM was acceptable. (One
education writer of my religion stated flat out that no parent should try to
teach their own kid, but by the time I read his book, I had enough balls to
say "screw it, what does he know?" -- but that was later <g>)
And then, I looked at another folder, this one titled "unschooling." Whoa,
nelly, what a bunch of weirdoes! Nevertheless, I find interesting posts,
and also find it's the funniest folder. I went to a chat and found many of
the unschooling posters there; I wrote down the names on a piece of paper so
I could look for their messages. I cracked a joke and got my first ROFL,
and I was hooked. I liked these people. I felt OK talking to them. I
could ask questions and not be told I was wrong, but that maybe there was
more out there. Someone said "relax," and someone else said "trust your
children," and someone made the suggestion I take a vacation from any kind
of "schooling," just to see what might happen.
I took that suggestion, using Advent/Christmas/Epiphany as the timeframe and
the justification -- a total of over two months <g> Once Epiphany was past,
my dd wanted to know when we would "start school" again. I didn't give a
real answer <g> While we didn't dive into unschooling right then, we never
did another Calvert lesson. We did some of the sweet ideas of Charlotte
Mason, like nature drawing and journals, and a little narration, but nothing
forced. This was my time of learning, my time of reading that guy all the
unschoolers talked about, John Holt ("How Children Failed" had me in tears),
and it was my time to heal.
It was my son, though, who made me an unschooler. I prepared to teach him
to read, using Charlotte Mason suggestions, and then discovered he already
*could* read. He had no patience for sounding out, shooting down the
Everyone Needs Phonics dogma. At Christmas, dd, who loved them, asked for
math workbooks :-) Being a fair-minded parent, I bought a kindergarten
level book for ds. The day after Christmas, the two of them spent a couple
of hours doing those workbooks. At one point, ds got stuck and asked for
help. He was doing subtraction, and tried to explain to me what the problem
was; whatever it was he was doing made no sense at all to me. I fell back
on the Calvert School teaching technique -- get out 9 beans, take away 5,
count what's left, simple, right? My 5 y.o. son gets this look on his face,
balls up his fists, and says in a growl, "Don't ever try to teach me
anything again, mom! You make it too confusing!"
That was my turning point. I have never since "taught" him anything. If he
asks for help, I ask if he's sure he wants it <g> I learned to respect his
brain, his learning "style," and to not take it personally if he rejects my
help.
I've called myself an unschooler for 6 of the 8 years I've been
homeschooling. I was not an attachment parent, never heard of La Leche
League until long after my babies weaned, never read Mothering or Growing
Without Schooling, still vote Republican...
OK, so I have a ways to go re. thinking for myself!! <ggg>
The point of this long-winded story is that there really are people who want
-- no, NEED -- someone to tell them what to do. In some ways, I've spent my
life hopping from one teacher to another, looking for that A, looking for
approval. When one "school" becomes boring or too hard or seems to not fit
me anymore, I look for a new one. I do it with religions and relationships
and philosophies. What happened when I found the unschoolers on AOL was
unsettling for me -- these people wouldn't tell me what to do, exactly, but
encouraged me to trust myself. No one ever suggested that before.
If I had read Holt's "Teach Your Own" first, instead of "For the Children's
Sake", I probably would never have homeschooled; I wasn't ready to hear
anything that radical. When people -- newbies -- seek out unschooling.com,
they probably have *some* idea of what unschooling is. I had to work my way
up to it on AOL, shedding coercive certainties little by little. I needed
someone to say "it's OK to not do school every day," "it's OK to use a
different handwriting program -- have you seen Portland Italic?"
Eventually, I didn't need anyone to say "it's OK to spend the day curled up
in bed reading The Indian in the Cupboard aloud, straight through, and not
do any worksheets about it"!
(Sorry for the length... HEY, WAKE UP!)
Nancy
on 2/3/02 10:23 PM, Heather Madrone at heather@... wrote:
> I got theShe probably got that idea from people like me.
> impression that Sandra thought that most people can't think for
> themselves and so need expert advice in order to make changes in
> their lives.
Some people *are* able to decide how to raise their kids, how to
school/homeschool/unschool them, etc. On the other hand, some of us were so
well-schooled we don't believe we are allowed to make those decisions; our
wiser elders have already done that, and we are failing our children and our
society if we step out of line. We are bad if we don't do as we're told.
Not every person was shamed into behaving, but a lot of us were.
Sounds like you are one of the lucky ones.
I decided to have children *after* reading Susan Schaeffer Macaulay's "For
the Children's Sake." She was Francis Schaeffer's daughter, and I'd already
read most of his and his wife's books, so she had credibility with me, based
on that. She writes about the Charlotte Mason method and her own
experiences as a homeschooled kid, although her parents used Calvert School.
My own fear of school was so great, I didn't have the nerve to even consider
parenthood until I learned that it was possible to never send your child to
school, and therefore, I would never have to talk to a principal or teacher.
Once my daughter was 6, I had to "start schooling," since that was the age
of enrollment in CA. I didn't feel prepared to "do Charlotte Mason," so I
chose the other curriculum Schaeffer mentioned, Calvert School. They
advertised in National Geographic, so that meant they had to be good, right?
And I dove into Calvert, did every page every day, and my dd got gold seals
indicating 100% correct on her tests, which, of course, we sent in to the
expert teacher to grade. I had to write evaluations of her reading, and
made sure she sounded good, because I was so afraid I might be viewed as a
failure and bad.
First grade went great (except for that one day when I locked dd in the
schoolroom until she completed her language worksheet -- I *knew* she could
*do it* if only she *would*), so we ordered second grade. It arrived about
3 weeks after we completed first, and dd wanted to jump right in. And I
dutifully read page one of the big teacher's manual and insisted we do
lesson one. The problem was, we hadn't taken three months off to forget
most of first grade, but the books assumed we had. The math book started
with matching number stickers to pictures. Dd had been doing 3-digit
subtraction, and could have started half-way through the book.
But no, the manual said lesson one, and by golly, we were going to DO lesson
one. I would be bad if we didn't. We battled through 40 boring lessons,
and I realized dd would NOT get a perfect gold seal on her first test!!! I
would be bad if she didn't. So...
... Dad stepped in. He'd found a new plaything called AOL, and, feeling
guilty because he's the only one playing with it, tries a keyword
"homeschooling." He shows it to me, shows me how to download folder
messages by flashsession so we won't break the budget, and I start exploring
message boards. First, I find one for Calvert School users, and am told I
don't really have to use the teacher service, and it's ok to use a different
handwriting program (I hated Calvert Script), and it's ok to skip lessons
and even to do the whole geography book in one day like dd wanted, rather
than making it the reward once a week as the teacher's manual suggested.
That alone was mindblowing. I could use the material in a way other than as
instructed by the experts? I could change something to suit -- myself??
Then I started looking at some of the other folders. I made friends with a
Charlotte Mason user (one expert enough to be a seminar speaker!), and
learned it was OK to relax, to adapt materials as I saw fit. I wrote snail
mail letters to other homeschoolers of my newly adopted religion, asking if
it was OK to be more relaxed, if Charlotte Mason was suitable. One warned
against anything too radical, but assured me CM was acceptable. (One
education writer of my religion stated flat out that no parent should try to
teach their own kid, but by the time I read his book, I had enough balls to
say "screw it, what does he know?" -- but that was later <g>)
And then, I looked at another folder, this one titled "unschooling." Whoa,
nelly, what a bunch of weirdoes! Nevertheless, I find interesting posts,
and also find it's the funniest folder. I went to a chat and found many of
the unschooling posters there; I wrote down the names on a piece of paper so
I could look for their messages. I cracked a joke and got my first ROFL,
and I was hooked. I liked these people. I felt OK talking to them. I
could ask questions and not be told I was wrong, but that maybe there was
more out there. Someone said "relax," and someone else said "trust your
children," and someone made the suggestion I take a vacation from any kind
of "schooling," just to see what might happen.
I took that suggestion, using Advent/Christmas/Epiphany as the timeframe and
the justification -- a total of over two months <g> Once Epiphany was past,
my dd wanted to know when we would "start school" again. I didn't give a
real answer <g> While we didn't dive into unschooling right then, we never
did another Calvert lesson. We did some of the sweet ideas of Charlotte
Mason, like nature drawing and journals, and a little narration, but nothing
forced. This was my time of learning, my time of reading that guy all the
unschoolers talked about, John Holt ("How Children Failed" had me in tears),
and it was my time to heal.
It was my son, though, who made me an unschooler. I prepared to teach him
to read, using Charlotte Mason suggestions, and then discovered he already
*could* read. He had no patience for sounding out, shooting down the
Everyone Needs Phonics dogma. At Christmas, dd, who loved them, asked for
math workbooks :-) Being a fair-minded parent, I bought a kindergarten
level book for ds. The day after Christmas, the two of them spent a couple
of hours doing those workbooks. At one point, ds got stuck and asked for
help. He was doing subtraction, and tried to explain to me what the problem
was; whatever it was he was doing made no sense at all to me. I fell back
on the Calvert School teaching technique -- get out 9 beans, take away 5,
count what's left, simple, right? My 5 y.o. son gets this look on his face,
balls up his fists, and says in a growl, "Don't ever try to teach me
anything again, mom! You make it too confusing!"
That was my turning point. I have never since "taught" him anything. If he
asks for help, I ask if he's sure he wants it <g> I learned to respect his
brain, his learning "style," and to not take it personally if he rejects my
help.
I've called myself an unschooler for 6 of the 8 years I've been
homeschooling. I was not an attachment parent, never heard of La Leche
League until long after my babies weaned, never read Mothering or Growing
Without Schooling, still vote Republican...
OK, so I have a ways to go re. thinking for myself!! <ggg>
The point of this long-winded story is that there really are people who want
-- no, NEED -- someone to tell them what to do. In some ways, I've spent my
life hopping from one teacher to another, looking for that A, looking for
approval. When one "school" becomes boring or too hard or seems to not fit
me anymore, I look for a new one. I do it with religions and relationships
and philosophies. What happened when I found the unschoolers on AOL was
unsettling for me -- these people wouldn't tell me what to do, exactly, but
encouraged me to trust myself. No one ever suggested that before.
If I had read Holt's "Teach Your Own" first, instead of "For the Children's
Sake", I probably would never have homeschooled; I wasn't ready to hear
anything that radical. When people -- newbies -- seek out unschooling.com,
they probably have *some* idea of what unschooling is. I had to work my way
up to it on AOL, shedding coercive certainties little by little. I needed
someone to say "it's OK to not do school every day," "it's OK to use a
different handwriting program -- have you seen Portland Italic?"
Eventually, I didn't need anyone to say "it's OK to spend the day curled up
in bed reading The Indian in the Cupboard aloud, straight through, and not
do any worksheets about it"!
(Sorry for the length... HEY, WAKE UP!)
Nancy
Pat Cald...
Nancy wrote:
I would say the only thing that is still a little shaky in my mind is math. I'm hoping my MIL doesn't ask me if we are still doing our math workbooks. I know I'm going to have trouble explaining why we are not. 12 yo dd plans on taking engineering of some kind in college. I don't know how she will get the math she needs for this program if she doesn't feel like hitting the math workbooks. I'm trusting that when she gets older if she still wants to get into an engineering program, she will do what it takes. She asked me today if there were any games she could play that would give her more math. Anybody have any games for algebra. I love figuring stuff like that out. I'm working through her math books because I enjoy it. Maybe my dd and I will go to college together.
Pat
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I've called myself an unschooler for 6 of the 8 years I've beenI don't want to get into any political arguments but is there something I don't know about Republicans and unschooling?
>homeschooling. I was not an attachment parent, never heard of La Leche
>League until long after my babies weaned, never read Mothering or Growing
>Without Schooling, still vote Republican...
>
>OK, so I have a ways to go re. thinking for myself!! <ggg>
>The point of this long-winded story is that there really are people who >wantI like being able to ask someone what they are doing and what their experiences have been. I like being able to question them, understand their perspective and not feel like I have to walk on eggshells doing it. I may not be an original thinker but I certainly think for myself. I analyze, analyze and analyze, if it doesn't make sense, I ask some more questions. So far the radical unschoolers have been the only ones that truly make sense to me.
>-- no, NEED -- someone to tell them what to do. In some ways, I've spent
>my
>life hopping from one teacher to another, looking for that A, looking for
>approval. When one "school" becomes boring or too hard or seems to not >fit
>me anymore, I look for a new one. I do it with religions and >relationships
>and philosophies. What happened when I found the unschoolers on AOL was
>unsettling for me -- these people wouldn't tell me what to do, exactly, >but
>encouraged me to trust myself. No one ever suggested that before.
I would say the only thing that is still a little shaky in my mind is math. I'm hoping my MIL doesn't ask me if we are still doing our math workbooks. I know I'm going to have trouble explaining why we are not. 12 yo dd plans on taking engineering of some kind in college. I don't know how she will get the math she needs for this program if she doesn't feel like hitting the math workbooks. I'm trusting that when she gets older if she still wants to get into an engineering program, she will do what it takes. She asked me today if there were any games she could play that would give her more math. Anybody have any games for algebra. I love figuring stuff like that out. I'm working through her math books because I enjoy it. Maybe my dd and I will go to college together.
Pat
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/4/02 4:06:31 PM, homeschoolmd@... writes:
<< She asked me today if there were any games she could play that would give
her more math. Anybody have any games for algebra. >>
We have almost all the Edmark math CD-ROMS, including Astro Algebra. It was
too hard for us when we first looked at it, but it seemed pretty cool.
Paula
<< She asked me today if there were any games she could play that would give
her more math. Anybody have any games for algebra. >>
We have almost all the Edmark math CD-ROMS, including Astro Algebra. It was
too hard for us when we first looked at it, but it seemed pretty cool.
Paula
Pam Hartley
----------
From: "Pat Cald..." <homeschoolmd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: keeping unschooling free
Date: Mon, Feb 4, 2002, 2:03 PM
don't know about Republicans and unschooling?
----------
It's a joke. There are probably more liberal and/or Democratic unschoolers
than conservative and/or Republican ones. My husband is a conservative
Republican, I'm a Libertarian, like to think of myself as moderate, and
often vote Republican.
There's no official unschooling credo or Republican mandate that says you
can't be a Republican and unschool.
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: "Pat Cald..." <homeschoolmd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: keeping unschooling free
Date: Mon, Feb 4, 2002, 2:03 PM
>I've called myself an unschooler for 6 of the 8 years I've beenI don't want to get into any political arguments but is there something I
>homeschooling. I was not an attachment parent, never heard of La Leche
>League until long after my babies weaned, never read Mothering or Growing
>Without Schooling, still vote Republican...
>
>OK, so I have a ways to go re. thinking for myself!! <ggg>
don't know about Republicans and unschooling?
----------
It's a joke. There are probably more liberal and/or Democratic unschoolers
than conservative and/or Republican ones. My husband is a conservative
Republican, I'm a Libertarian, like to think of myself as moderate, and
often vote Republican.
There's no official unschooling credo or Republican mandate that says you
can't be a Republican and unschool.
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sharon Rudd
>...............
> on 2/3/02 10:23 PM, Heather Madrone at
> heather@... wrote:
>
> > I got the
> > impression that Sandra thought that most people
> can't think for
> > themselves and so need expert advice in order to
> make changes in
> > their lives.
> --- Nancy Wooton <Felicitas@...> wrote:
> WARNING - long post ahead!
> She probably got that idea from people like me.
Nancy, It think that is a sweet way to begin your
post, which really wasn't so long as the years that
where condensenced into a letter. Thanks for your
honesty.
Sharon of the Swamp
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