Re: Re: Shifting from mom-directed homeschooling
bigforkmom
Thank you for the responses, and especially the direction to a
number of links. I'll be looking at those in the days ahead.
I would like to add to the situation we are in with our 15 year old,
because I'm not sure but what we may be talking at cross purposes.
I mentioned her IQ, not because I put faith in this score, but
because it is one part of the effort we've been making to figure out
what is going on. I have no clue what my other seven children's IQ
scores are, or mine, or my husband's. It would never, never occur
to me to even consider testing one of the other children. But
this child is struggling in ways I've never encountered. We have
no medical history of her before we adopted her when she was six.
We have no information as to what she might have been exposed to in
utero. We do know, however, that something is clearly limiting her
abilities.
Sandra asked if she has access to using money. Of course. She
gets an allowance and is expected to pay for certain expenses, such
as going to movies, buying gifts for friends, buying snacks and much
more. We play board games routinely. She helps me in the kitchen
with preparing meals that involve the use of recipes in cookbooks.
She has a digital watch, digital alarm clock, calendars, appointment
books. There are areas in which she hasn't been able to make
connections that I would think would be fairly normal for a fifteen
year old.
For example, she can't count the money in her wallet. She doesn't
know if she has enough money to make a purchase. If she has two
tens, three fives, and seven ones, plus change, she won't know if
she can buy something that costs $12 because there is no $12
bill. When counting coins, if she has three quarters and three
dimes, she can't figure out how much that is. I have tried to help
her make these connections in as many ways as I know.
She cannot keep days of the week straight from months of the year.
She can't name all the months and she doesn't know what month
Christmas occurs in. She can't get the connection as to what
month comes after December. We use calendars all the time, trying
to present ideas that much younger children are typically absorbing.
Recently she was helping as an usher at a ballet performance for an
out-of-town touring company. She couldn't direct people to their
seats because she doesn't know the alphabet well enough to recognize
where the different letters will fall in the rows at the theatre.
She literally was taking people to the front of the auditorium, then
advancing up the stairs until she got to the correct row.
When helping me cook, she can't differentiate between the different
sized measuring cups. If asked to add two-thirds cups of sugar to
a recipe, she will be frustrated because there is no two thirds cup
in our collection. She doesn't understand that you could fill the
one-third cup twice. This is after cooking with me daily for
years. She can't figure fractions using pies or pizzas. She has
not been able to prepare meals for herself that require mixing
ingredients that need any degree of measuring. She was mixing a
box of brownie mix the other day that called for two tablespoons of
oil, and she didn't know how much that was. I handed her the set
of measuring spoons, and that was no help because there isn't one
specifically labeled two tablespoons. We've been mixing these
brownies for years. Virtually every two weeks I'll explain that we
fill the tablespoon two times. She cannot figure out how to double
a recipe, even though she will be at my side while I do this and I
talk through the process.
There are six of us at the table routinely, but our older kids join
us fairly often. If I tell her that her older brother and his
wife will be coming and ask her to set extra places, she doesn't
know how many places to set. But she can add six and two.
Let me add, I'm not making any of these activities "educational."
Board and card games are routine around here. But she needs our
help to participate, just as we would have helped one of the kids
when they were five or six year olds, just learning a game.
She doesn't understand the concepts of before and after. Recently
her ballet teacher asked her to come an hour early for a costume
fitting, and she didn't have a clue as to what time that would be.
If a movie starts at six and lasts two hours, she won't know when it
is over. She can read a digital clock, but she can't connect how
many minutes it will be until something starts. If we plan to
leave the house at 3:15, and it's 2:45, she won't know how lont it
is until we leave.
She can't read a thermometer. She can't use a calendar to see how
many days it will be until an event. She doesn't know how to
figure the number of days when going from, oh, let's say the 25'th
of one month to the 3rd of the next, even with a calendar in front
of her. Recently she asked when her next hair appointment was,
and I said that I had written it on the calendar, and she had no
idea that if it wasn't on the current page that it might be on the
next. She didn't see an appointment written in October, and she
had no concept of looking at November. We're going to Florida in
January and she doesn't know if that is before or after Christmas.
She seeks out age appropriate books, but she has never been able to
talk about the content. She can't participate in real
conversations with people, so she does lots of diversional tactics
like saying things that she knows are silly.
She loves computer games that are totally visual, but can't move
beyond to any that require strategic thinking. And she can't play
basic board games that require any strategy. She likes movies and
tv but can't participate in any family discussion on what is going
on. We will make predictions as to what we think might happen in
an ongoing series, and she clearly doesn't follow.
Her speech and language issues are similar to those you would expect
with an adult who had suffered a stroke. Every professional she
has encountered believe she has suffered some type of brain injury,
either before or after birth.
The reason I'm raising all this is that I'm not sure about what
parents of children with severe developmental disabilities do with
respect to unschooling. While I have confidence that the other
girls learn a great deal from normal family activities, I'm not
confident that this particular chid is able to function at that
level. So, my question is, would you recommend unschooling for a
child who has a significant developmental disability? Anyone who
spends time with my daughter knows that there is a major problem,
but we don't have a diagnosis. We know that she will likely
never be able to live independently, although our hope is that she
will be able to have a job outside a "sheltered work environment."
We have been advised to provide a financial plan with guardians for
her inheritance.
I don't have any confidence that anything I've done so far has
helped much. I moved away from anything approaching formal work
with her a long time ago, because it was so frustrating for her. I
try to keep things as low key, non-threatening as possible because I
want to keep pressure off out of concern for her self image, which
has already been damaged pretty badly because of the abuse she faced
in the orphanage.
I probably am coming off as defensive, and I probably am, because
people keep telling me what works with their kids who have ADD or
dyslexia or are autistic, and none of these apply to a child who
possibly has brain damage and a signifant developmental disability.
A friend whose child has Downs told me it's actually easier in some
ways for her because her child's disability is visual. Our
daughter has something going on in her brain that is very real, but
we can't diagnose it or find a particular therapy to use.
Elaine
number of links. I'll be looking at those in the days ahead.
I would like to add to the situation we are in with our 15 year old,
because I'm not sure but what we may be talking at cross purposes.
I mentioned her IQ, not because I put faith in this score, but
because it is one part of the effort we've been making to figure out
what is going on. I have no clue what my other seven children's IQ
scores are, or mine, or my husband's. It would never, never occur
to me to even consider testing one of the other children. But
this child is struggling in ways I've never encountered. We have
no medical history of her before we adopted her when she was six.
We have no information as to what she might have been exposed to in
utero. We do know, however, that something is clearly limiting her
abilities.
Sandra asked if she has access to using money. Of course. She
gets an allowance and is expected to pay for certain expenses, such
as going to movies, buying gifts for friends, buying snacks and much
more. We play board games routinely. She helps me in the kitchen
with preparing meals that involve the use of recipes in cookbooks.
She has a digital watch, digital alarm clock, calendars, appointment
books. There are areas in which she hasn't been able to make
connections that I would think would be fairly normal for a fifteen
year old.
For example, she can't count the money in her wallet. She doesn't
know if she has enough money to make a purchase. If she has two
tens, three fives, and seven ones, plus change, she won't know if
she can buy something that costs $12 because there is no $12
bill. When counting coins, if she has three quarters and three
dimes, she can't figure out how much that is. I have tried to help
her make these connections in as many ways as I know.
She cannot keep days of the week straight from months of the year.
She can't name all the months and she doesn't know what month
Christmas occurs in. She can't get the connection as to what
month comes after December. We use calendars all the time, trying
to present ideas that much younger children are typically absorbing.
Recently she was helping as an usher at a ballet performance for an
out-of-town touring company. She couldn't direct people to their
seats because she doesn't know the alphabet well enough to recognize
where the different letters will fall in the rows at the theatre.
She literally was taking people to the front of the auditorium, then
advancing up the stairs until she got to the correct row.
When helping me cook, she can't differentiate between the different
sized measuring cups. If asked to add two-thirds cups of sugar to
a recipe, she will be frustrated because there is no two thirds cup
in our collection. She doesn't understand that you could fill the
one-third cup twice. This is after cooking with me daily for
years. She can't figure fractions using pies or pizzas. She has
not been able to prepare meals for herself that require mixing
ingredients that need any degree of measuring. She was mixing a
box of brownie mix the other day that called for two tablespoons of
oil, and she didn't know how much that was. I handed her the set
of measuring spoons, and that was no help because there isn't one
specifically labeled two tablespoons. We've been mixing these
brownies for years. Virtually every two weeks I'll explain that we
fill the tablespoon two times. She cannot figure out how to double
a recipe, even though she will be at my side while I do this and I
talk through the process.
There are six of us at the table routinely, but our older kids join
us fairly often. If I tell her that her older brother and his
wife will be coming and ask her to set extra places, she doesn't
know how many places to set. But she can add six and two.
Let me add, I'm not making any of these activities "educational."
Board and card games are routine around here. But she needs our
help to participate, just as we would have helped one of the kids
when they were five or six year olds, just learning a game.
She doesn't understand the concepts of before and after. Recently
her ballet teacher asked her to come an hour early for a costume
fitting, and she didn't have a clue as to what time that would be.
If a movie starts at six and lasts two hours, she won't know when it
is over. She can read a digital clock, but she can't connect how
many minutes it will be until something starts. If we plan to
leave the house at 3:15, and it's 2:45, she won't know how lont it
is until we leave.
She can't read a thermometer. She can't use a calendar to see how
many days it will be until an event. She doesn't know how to
figure the number of days when going from, oh, let's say the 25'th
of one month to the 3rd of the next, even with a calendar in front
of her. Recently she asked when her next hair appointment was,
and I said that I had written it on the calendar, and she had no
idea that if it wasn't on the current page that it might be on the
next. She didn't see an appointment written in October, and she
had no concept of looking at November. We're going to Florida in
January and she doesn't know if that is before or after Christmas.
She seeks out age appropriate books, but she has never been able to
talk about the content. She can't participate in real
conversations with people, so she does lots of diversional tactics
like saying things that she knows are silly.
She loves computer games that are totally visual, but can't move
beyond to any that require strategic thinking. And she can't play
basic board games that require any strategy. She likes movies and
tv but can't participate in any family discussion on what is going
on. We will make predictions as to what we think might happen in
an ongoing series, and she clearly doesn't follow.
Her speech and language issues are similar to those you would expect
with an adult who had suffered a stroke. Every professional she
has encountered believe she has suffered some type of brain injury,
either before or after birth.
The reason I'm raising all this is that I'm not sure about what
parents of children with severe developmental disabilities do with
respect to unschooling. While I have confidence that the other
girls learn a great deal from normal family activities, I'm not
confident that this particular chid is able to function at that
level. So, my question is, would you recommend unschooling for a
child who has a significant developmental disability? Anyone who
spends time with my daughter knows that there is a major problem,
but we don't have a diagnosis. We know that she will likely
never be able to live independently, although our hope is that she
will be able to have a job outside a "sheltered work environment."
We have been advised to provide a financial plan with guardians for
her inheritance.
I don't have any confidence that anything I've done so far has
helped much. I moved away from anything approaching formal work
with her a long time ago, because it was so frustrating for her. I
try to keep things as low key, non-threatening as possible because I
want to keep pressure off out of concern for her self image, which
has already been damaged pretty badly because of the abuse she faced
in the orphanage.
I probably am coming off as defensive, and I probably am, because
people keep telling me what works with their kids who have ADD or
dyslexia or are autistic, and none of these apply to a child who
possibly has brain damage and a signifant developmental disability.
A friend whose child has Downs told me it's actually easier in some
ways for her because her child's disability is visual. Our
daughter has something going on in her brain that is very real, but
we can't diagnose it or find a particular therapy to use.
Elaine
Sandra Dodd
Elaine,
I'm writing as listowner this time.
Because Word on my Mac will do a word count, I put your post in there.
1,423 words. Not about unschooling.
-=-Thank you for the responses, and especially the direction to a
number of links. I'll be looking at those in the days ahead.-=-
You should have looked at the links immediately. People here are
trying to help you with what you said you wanted help with. The
purpose of the list is to discuss unschooling. We can do that, we
will do that, we've been doing that for seven years. The good parts
are saved, and you were sent links.
To say "yeah, yeah, I'll read your stuff later," but then to expect
over 1000 people to read over 1000 words is not a good use of
anyone's time.
I'm sure some people will read every word you wrote, because they're
generous with their time. I glanced through, but I'm tired and am
going to sleep. What I can say is that if your daughter can't direct
people to their seats, she shouldn't have been put in a position to
fail. She could've handed out programs. I've ushered at an opera.
There are other jobs than directing people to seats.
If you had an adult houseguest who had had a stroke, or you were
taking care of a parent who had brain damage, you wouldn't expect
them to measure ingredients or set the table.
It seems many of your problems might be from your pressing her to do
what she can't do, instead of helping her do things more directly, as
you would with a younger child or a guest.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm writing as listowner this time.
Because Word on my Mac will do a word count, I put your post in there.
1,423 words. Not about unschooling.
-=-Thank you for the responses, and especially the direction to a
number of links. I'll be looking at those in the days ahead.-=-
You should have looked at the links immediately. People here are
trying to help you with what you said you wanted help with. The
purpose of the list is to discuss unschooling. We can do that, we
will do that, we've been doing that for seven years. The good parts
are saved, and you were sent links.
To say "yeah, yeah, I'll read your stuff later," but then to expect
over 1000 people to read over 1000 words is not a good use of
anyone's time.
I'm sure some people will read every word you wrote, because they're
generous with their time. I glanced through, but I'm tired and am
going to sleep. What I can say is that if your daughter can't direct
people to their seats, she shouldn't have been put in a position to
fail. She could've handed out programs. I've ushered at an opera.
There are other jobs than directing people to seats.
If you had an adult houseguest who had had a stroke, or you were
taking care of a parent who had brain damage, you wouldn't expect
them to measure ingredients or set the table.
It seems many of your problems might be from your pressing her to do
what she can't do, instead of helping her do things more directly, as
you would with a younger child or a guest.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Oct 26, 2008, at 4:59 PM, bigforkmom wrote:
-pam
> I don't have any confidence that anything I've done so far hasHow long ago?
> helped much. I moved away from anything approaching formal work
> with her a long time ago, because it was so frustrating for her.
-pam
Jenny C
> She seeks out age appropriate books, but she has never been able toDoes she actually read them? Perhaps she's really good at hiding the
> talk about the content.
fact that she may not be able to read. It's just an idea, I wouldn't
know one way or another. If it is the case, having books on tape and cd
could be a totally awesome thing for her.
> She loves computer games that are totally visual, but can't moveYou should most definitely seek out video games that are visually based,
> beyond to any that require strategic thinking.
for her to play with. I'm not thinking of any off the top of my head,
but I'm sure they're out there.
I'm curious about her interest in dance. My own experience with dance,
is that there is strategy involved. There are certain ways to move and
hold yourself that work better than other ways. Doing movement across a
floor and finishing before you run into a wall is strategy. Doing
choreography to counts is mathematical. Ballet is very geometric, it's
the very nature of it's design. Diagonals, circles, left, right,
center, squares, up, and down, it's very very ordered and symmetrical.
Even excercises are ordered and symmetrical in nature, everything is
done on the right side, directly followed by the left side.
> While I have confidence that the otherThere is no difference. Each person will learn what they learn and live
> girls learn a great deal from normal family activities, I'm not
> confident that this particular chid is able to function at that
> level. So, my question is, would you recommend unschooling for a
> child who has a significant developmental disability?
accordingly. She may not ever be independent, but she could be happily
doing things she loves to do and feeling good about herself and life.
Focus on what she does like and enjoy, and do more of it. Do that with
each of your kids.
Angela Shaw
I read your post and I get your point that your daughter significantly
delayed. IMO, Unschooling would be perfect for her. One can only build on
the knowledge and abilities they already have. You sound like you have an
active busy family. She will continue to learn and grow as you help her
follow her interests and participate in your family life. I would just
remind you to actively search for things that she finds interesting and fun.
(video games, etc) When I get stressed about something I feel like I SHOULD
be doing, I always go back in my own head to the thought: If my child died
today, would I be happy with the last moments I spent with her. What can I
do to make her life peaceful and happy?
Angela
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
delayed. IMO, Unschooling would be perfect for her. One can only build on
the knowledge and abilities they already have. You sound like you have an
active busy family. She will continue to learn and grow as you help her
follow her interests and participate in your family life. I would just
remind you to actively search for things that she finds interesting and fun.
(video games, etc) When I get stressed about something I feel like I SHOULD
be doing, I always go back in my own head to the thought: If my child died
today, would I be happy with the last moments I spent with her. What can I
do to make her life peaceful and happy?
Angela
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-> She loves computer games that are totally visual, but can't move
beyond to any that require strategic thinking.-=-
Please give us an example of a game that doesn't require any
strategic thinking. Maybe we could help you see what she IS doing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
beyond to any that require strategic thinking.-=-
Please give us an example of a game that doesn't require any
strategic thinking. Maybe we could help you see what she IS doing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lyeping2008
--- In [email protected], "Jenny C" <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
The reason I'm raising all this is that I'm not sure about what
parents of children with severe developmental disabilities do with
respect to unschooling.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
This seems like a sense of deja vu. I thought a few weeks ago, we did
had someone posted similar dilemma, also dealing with an adopted
daughter, now 15, with similar issues?
Anyway, do bear in mind, my tone is supposed to come across as kind
and gentle, and am not trying to snipe you.
2 links to a special needs list that might be able to help you
understand your girl more.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LearningAbledKids/?yguid=357843301
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ASLearningAtHome/?yguid=357843301
I believe unschooling is possible for any child with disability.
Because it freedom, allowing you to accomodate the child's unique
abilities, and not highlight and try to fix thier disabilities.
Me and hubby do not see son's asperger as a disabilty. We just see it
as he is a totally different type of human being, just on a different
frequency compare to ours.
This was evidence when we recently had to filled up a form for him.
Alot of his behaviour was classified as a disability, which to us, was
both amazingly funny and surprising. Because we never did see it that
way.
The fact that he is now socialising well with another asperger child,
tells me that they can communicate well, as long as they are on the
same wave lenght.
I am unschooling an asperger child with atypical traits, meaning he
does have other so called "limiting" behaviour that's not noted on the
great big asperger book.
To me, limitation is only evident when measured against someone else's
expectation.
When you do not apply any of your expectation on the child, then the
child's limitation no longer exist. What you have is the true essence
of the child showing, the true beauty and ability of that individual.
I unschool my son according to his character and ability. My child
does not understand limitation because of his narrow obssesion, which
is a very common asperger trait.
But yet I have learn to unschool by accepting his obsession, and not
limit it. I just let him get on with it and let it naturally exhaust
itself. And this obsession behaviour has led to many great
discoveries, of his own doing, contributing to great sense of
achievements. His current obsession is fire burning, so he's getting
on with it, burning lots of different things in the back garden in the
past 2 months or so.
So perhaps you need to unschool your expectations of her first? And
just accept her for what she is? And focus on her abilities, and work
creatively to bridge that limitations of hers? Just because she cannot
count money, doesn;'t mean her life is gonna be any lesser, is it?
It just means she'll have to handle money in a different method,
possibly. Maybe notes and coins doesn't makes sense to her brain. You
know how we always say that it is possible for all those great
scientist to know fantastically confusing physic formula, but yet
cannot change a diaper? Here's something for you to think about LOL!
<Big Wide Grin>
SharonBugs.
Sandra Dodd
-=-His current obsession is fire burning, so he's getting
on with it, burning lots of different things in the back garden in the
past 2 months or so.-=-
Has he put designs on wood? Magnifying glass or woodburning tool?
Hey, it's almost Christmas....
House numbers, decorated switch-plate covers, outsides of wooden
bowls, edges of wooden platters...
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
on with it, burning lots of different things in the back garden in the
past 2 months or so.-=-
Has he put designs on wood? Magnifying glass or woodburning tool?
Hey, it's almost Christmas....
House numbers, decorated switch-plate covers, outsides of wooden
bowls, edges of wooden platters...
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Margaret
You mentioned her reading (but not really seeming to understand it)
and also that she is very visual... it made me wonder if she would
like reading manga. Books with a lot of pictures might be more
enjoyable for her and easier to make the story real. It sounded as
though you were saying that she can read. If she is very visual, I
think books with pictures and movies might be a better direction to go
than books on tape. Books on tape might be harder. Offering them and
seeing what she likes is probably the best way to find out, though.
If you want to try manga, "Fruits Basket" might be a nice one to start
with. There is also an anime version that she might enjoy. Ranma is
also a lot of fun - rather silly and a lot of physical humor (anime
and manga for this one as well). Comics like Garfield might be
enjoyable as well.
I also wondered if she is choosing age appropriate books because she
feels as though she should. Maybe you could encourage her to look at
other things that are easier to read. Fairy tales with lots of
pictures might be enjoyable for her. They are simpler and more visual
without seeming childish. I read books illustrated by Susan Jeffers
when I was younger and they are nice versions of the stories. Perhaps
you could find other picture books that can be fun for adults too -
share them with the whole family. Perhaps if she sees her sisters and
you reading things like that it will seem OK for her to do it too.
Some of the Miyazaki movies might be fun and adults like them too.
"My Neighbor Totoro", "Kiki's Delivery service" and "Spirited Away"
are the ones my daughter loves (she is 5) and I do as well. The first
two have fairly simple plots. All of them are very interesting,
visually.
It sounded as though she enjoys dance. What else does she enjoy
doing? What kind of video games does she enjoy?
and also that she is very visual... it made me wonder if she would
like reading manga. Books with a lot of pictures might be more
enjoyable for her and easier to make the story real. It sounded as
though you were saying that she can read. If she is very visual, I
think books with pictures and movies might be a better direction to go
than books on tape. Books on tape might be harder. Offering them and
seeing what she likes is probably the best way to find out, though.
If you want to try manga, "Fruits Basket" might be a nice one to start
with. There is also an anime version that she might enjoy. Ranma is
also a lot of fun - rather silly and a lot of physical humor (anime
and manga for this one as well). Comics like Garfield might be
enjoyable as well.
I also wondered if she is choosing age appropriate books because she
feels as though she should. Maybe you could encourage her to look at
other things that are easier to read. Fairy tales with lots of
pictures might be enjoyable for her. They are simpler and more visual
without seeming childish. I read books illustrated by Susan Jeffers
when I was younger and they are nice versions of the stories. Perhaps
you could find other picture books that can be fun for adults too -
share them with the whole family. Perhaps if she sees her sisters and
you reading things like that it will seem OK for her to do it too.
Some of the Miyazaki movies might be fun and adults like them too.
"My Neighbor Totoro", "Kiki's Delivery service" and "Spirited Away"
are the ones my daughter loves (she is 5) and I do as well. The first
two have fairly simple plots. All of them are very interesting,
visually.
It sounded as though she enjoys dance. What else does she enjoy
doing? What kind of video games does she enjoy?
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 4:59 PM, bigforkmom <green@...> wrote:
> Thank you for the responses, and especially the direction to a
> number of links. I'll be looking at those in the days ahead.
>
> I would like to add to the situation we are in with our 15 year old,
> because I'm not sure but what we may be talking at cross purposes.
> I mentioned her IQ, not because I put faith in this score, but
> because it is one part of the effort we've been making to figure out
> what is going on. I have no clue what my other seven children's IQ
> scores are, or mine, or my husband's. It would never, never occur
> to me to even consider testing one of the other children. But
> this child is struggling in ways I've never encountered. We have
> no medical history of her before we adopted her when she was six.
> We have no information as to what she might have been exposed to in
> utero. We do know, however, that something is clearly limiting her
> abilities.
>
> Sandra asked if she has access to using money. Of course. She
> gets an allowance and is expected to pay for certain expenses, such
> as going to movies, buying gifts for friends, buying snacks and much
> more. We play board games routinely. She helps me in the kitchen
> with preparing meals that involve the use of recipes in cookbooks.
> She has a digital watch, digital alarm clock, calendars, appointment
> books. There are areas in which she hasn't been able to make
> connections that I would think would be fairly normal for a fifteen
> year old.
>
> For example, she can't count the money in her wallet. She doesn't
> know if she has enough money to make a purchase. If she has two
> tens, three fives, and seven ones, plus change, she won't know if
> she can buy something that costs $12 because there is no $12
> bill. When counting coins, if she has three quarters and three
> dimes, she can't figure out how much that is. I have tried to help
> her make these connections in as many ways as I know.
>
> She cannot keep days of the week straight from months of the year.
> She can't name all the months and she doesn't know what month
> Christmas occurs in. She can't get the connection as to what
> month comes after December. We use calendars all the time, trying
> to present ideas that much younger children are typically absorbing.
>
> Recently she was helping as an usher at a ballet performance for an
> out-of-town touring company. She couldn't direct people to their
> seats because she doesn't know the alphabet well enough to recognize
> where the different letters will fall in the rows at the theatre.
> She literally was taking people to the front of the auditorium, then
> advancing up the stairs until she got to the correct row.
>
> When helping me cook, she can't differentiate between the different
> sized measuring cups. If asked to add two-thirds cups of sugar to
> a recipe, she will be frustrated because there is no two thirds cup
> in our collection. She doesn't understand that you could fill the
> one-third cup twice. This is after cooking with me daily for
> years. She can't figure fractions using pies or pizzas. She has
> not been able to prepare meals for herself that require mixing
> ingredients that need any degree of measuring. She was mixing a
> box of brownie mix the other day that called for two tablespoons of
> oil, and she didn't know how much that was. I handed her the set
> of measuring spoons, and that was no help because there isn't one
> specifically labeled two tablespoons. We've been mixing these
> brownies for years. Virtually every two weeks I'll explain that we
> fill the tablespoon two times. She cannot figure out how to double
> a recipe, even though she will be at my side while I do this and I
> talk through the process.
>
> There are six of us at the table routinely, but our older kids join
> us fairly often. If I tell her that her older brother and his
> wife will be coming and ask her to set extra places, she doesn't
> know how many places to set. But she can add six and two.
>
> Let me add, I'm not making any of these activities "educational."
> Board and card games are routine around here. But she needs our
> help to participate, just as we would have helped one of the kids
> when they were five or six year olds, just learning a game.
>
> She doesn't understand the concepts of before and after. Recently
> her ballet teacher asked her to come an hour early for a costume
> fitting, and she didn't have a clue as to what time that would be.
> If a movie starts at six and lasts two hours, she won't know when it
> is over. She can read a digital clock, but she can't connect how
> many minutes it will be until something starts. If we plan to
> leave the house at 3:15, and it's 2:45, she won't know how lont it
> is until we leave.
>
> She can't read a thermometer. She can't use a calendar to see how
> many days it will be until an event. She doesn't know how to
> figure the number of days when going from, oh, let's say the 25'th
> of one month to the 3rd of the next, even with a calendar in front
> of her. Recently she asked when her next hair appointment was,
> and I said that I had written it on the calendar, and she had no
> idea that if it wasn't on the current page that it might be on the
> next. She didn't see an appointment written in October, and she
> had no concept of looking at November. We're going to Florida in
> January and she doesn't know if that is before or after Christmas.
>
> She seeks out age appropriate books, but she has never been able to
> talk about the content. She can't participate in real
> conversations with people, so she does lots of diversional tactics
> like saying things that she knows are silly.
>
> She loves computer games that are totally visual, but can't move
> beyond to any that require strategic thinking. And she can't play
> basic board games that require any strategy. She likes movies and
> tv but can't participate in any family discussion on what is going
> on. We will make predictions as to what we think might happen in
> an ongoing series, and she clearly doesn't follow.
>
> Her speech and language issues are similar to those you would expect
> with an adult who had suffered a stroke. Every professional she
> has encountered believe she has suffered some type of brain injury,
> either before or after birth.
>
> The reason I'm raising all this is that I'm not sure about what
> parents of children with severe developmental disabilities do with
> respect to unschooling. While I have confidence that the other
> girls learn a great deal from normal family activities, I'm not
> confident that this particular chid is able to function at that
> level. So, my question is, would you recommend unschooling for a
> child who has a significant developmental disability? Anyone who
> spends time with my daughter knows that there is a major problem,
> but we don't have a diagnosis. We know that she will likely
> never be able to live independently, although our hope is that she
> will be able to have a job outside a "sheltered work environment."
> We have been advised to provide a financial plan with guardians for
> her inheritance.
>
> I don't have any confidence that anything I've done so far has
> helped much. I moved away from anything approaching formal work
> with her a long time ago, because it was so frustrating for her. I
> try to keep things as low key, non-threatening as possible because I
> want to keep pressure off out of concern for her self image, which
> has already been damaged pretty badly because of the abuse she faced
> in the orphanage.
>
> I probably am coming off as defensive, and I probably am, because
> people keep telling me what works with their kids who have ADD or
> dyslexia or are autistic, and none of these apply to a child who
> possibly has brain damage and a signifant developmental disability.
> A friend whose child has Downs told me it's actually easier in some
> ways for her because her child's disability is visual. Our
> daughter has something going on in her brain that is very real, but
> we can't diagnose it or find a particular therapy to use.
>
> Elaine
Robyn L. Coburn
I think the idea of expectations and releasing them is something that would
help you with all your children.
Maybe as a useful exercise take every negative expectation that you have
written about in your couple of posts - including the subtle ones, the "they
won't", "they can't", "they never" phrases - and turn them around into
something positive. This will start you on the path of seeing your children
as perfect in the now. Then let those happy perceptions flutter off into the
ether like butterflies in the garden, and let go of ALL the expectations -
good or bad.
For example:
<<<She gets an allowance and is expected to pay for certain expenses, such
as going to movies, buying gifts for friends, buying snacks and much
more.>>>
How about "She gets an allowance and is able to use it to pay for certain
expenses which I can help her with".
Being unable to count money could become about her generosity in wanting to
buy gifts for her friends.
Here is something that struck me as you choosing to focus on the negative
instead of choosing to celebrate the positive.
<<<<She couldn't direct people to their
seats because she doesn't know the alphabet well enough to recognize
where the different letters will fall in the rows at the theatre.
She literally was taking people to the front of the auditorium, then
advancing up the stairs until she got to the correct row. >>>>
She was placed in a position of not being able to complete a task in the
usual way - so she devised a method for doing it that worked perfectly well!
She found a way to be successful, but all you are talking of are her
inabilities.
Let's write it again with positivity:
"I'm so proud of her because when she found she couldn't keep the letters
straight, she worked out that she could follow the row letters by starting
at the front and working back to show people to their seats."
Just celebrate moments - the happy moment the brownies come out of the
oven - even if it is the same one over and over.
<<<<We know that she will likely
never be able to live independently, although our hope is that she
will be able to have a job outside a "sheltered work environment."
We have been advised to provide a financial plan with guardians for
her inheritance.>>>>
Why do you hope for her to be outside of a "sheltered work environment"?
Always wanting more than she can give? I think I would be hoping that she
would always *have* a place in a sheltered environment.
Having a financial plan sounds good!
<<<<I don't have any confidence that anything I've done so far has helped
much.>>>
I think you should give yourself credit for bringing her into a loving home
from an orphanage, and for having the patience to work with her. Now direct
that patience a little differently to *being* with her, joyfully, in what
may be an endless loop of never doubling the brownie recipe. But she will
still feel your love and acceptance.
Now, to move forward with unschooling it might be time to look at what
"helped much" means. I think you have goals that are about making her be
"normal" or give the appearance of normal to the outside world. I think you
are trying to push her to be all she can be, instead of doing what
unschoolers do, which is appreciate where are children are now, who they are
now. This frees our children to become all they can be - at their own pace
and time.
This works with your other children also. Cease looking at what they aren't
doing (yet), and focus on what they can do, do enjoy, are interested in.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
help you with all your children.
Maybe as a useful exercise take every negative expectation that you have
written about in your couple of posts - including the subtle ones, the "they
won't", "they can't", "they never" phrases - and turn them around into
something positive. This will start you on the path of seeing your children
as perfect in the now. Then let those happy perceptions flutter off into the
ether like butterflies in the garden, and let go of ALL the expectations -
good or bad.
For example:
<<<She gets an allowance and is expected to pay for certain expenses, such
as going to movies, buying gifts for friends, buying snacks and much
more.>>>
How about "She gets an allowance and is able to use it to pay for certain
expenses which I can help her with".
Being unable to count money could become about her generosity in wanting to
buy gifts for her friends.
Here is something that struck me as you choosing to focus on the negative
instead of choosing to celebrate the positive.
<<<<She couldn't direct people to their
seats because she doesn't know the alphabet well enough to recognize
where the different letters will fall in the rows at the theatre.
She literally was taking people to the front of the auditorium, then
advancing up the stairs until she got to the correct row. >>>>
She was placed in a position of not being able to complete a task in the
usual way - so she devised a method for doing it that worked perfectly well!
She found a way to be successful, but all you are talking of are her
inabilities.
Let's write it again with positivity:
"I'm so proud of her because when she found she couldn't keep the letters
straight, she worked out that she could follow the row letters by starting
at the front and working back to show people to their seats."
Just celebrate moments - the happy moment the brownies come out of the
oven - even if it is the same one over and over.
<<<<We know that she will likely
never be able to live independently, although our hope is that she
will be able to have a job outside a "sheltered work environment."
We have been advised to provide a financial plan with guardians for
her inheritance.>>>>
Why do you hope for her to be outside of a "sheltered work environment"?
Always wanting more than she can give? I think I would be hoping that she
would always *have* a place in a sheltered environment.
Having a financial plan sounds good!
<<<<I don't have any confidence that anything I've done so far has helped
much.>>>
I think you should give yourself credit for bringing her into a loving home
from an orphanage, and for having the patience to work with her. Now direct
that patience a little differently to *being* with her, joyfully, in what
may be an endless loop of never doubling the brownie recipe. But she will
still feel your love and acceptance.
Now, to move forward with unschooling it might be time to look at what
"helped much" means. I think you have goals that are about making her be
"normal" or give the appearance of normal to the outside world. I think you
are trying to push her to be all she can be, instead of doing what
unschoolers do, which is appreciate where are children are now, who they are
now. This frees our children to become all they can be - at their own pace
and time.
This works with your other children also. Cease looking at what they aren't
doing (yet), and focus on what they can do, do enjoy, are interested in.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
Margaret
I was thinking about doubling the brownie recipe, and I wonder if it
would be happier for all of you if you just said "We'll need two
tablespoons, so we use measure out one tablespoon two times" or, with
your dinner example, "We have two guests coming so we will need 8
settings instead 6" instead of waiting for her to fail at figuring it
out and having to ask you. If you know she can't make that connection
yet (and maybe not ever) then wouldn't it be happier for both of you
if you didn't ask her to do something that you know she can't do?
would be happier for all of you if you just said "We'll need two
tablespoons, so we use measure out one tablespoon two times" or, with
your dinner example, "We have two guests coming so we will need 8
settings instead 6" instead of waiting for her to fail at figuring it
out and having to ask you. If you know she can't make that connection
yet (and maybe not ever) then wouldn't it be happier for both of you
if you didn't ask her to do something that you know she can't do?
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 12:26 PM, Robyn L. Coburn <dezigna@...> wrote:
> I think you should give yourself credit for bringing her into a loving home
> from an orphanage, and for having the patience to work with her. Now direct
> that patience a little differently to *being* with her, joyfully, in what
> may be an endless loop of never doubling the brownie recipe. But she will
> still feel your love and acceptance.
lyeping2008
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
That's a good idea Sandra, will strew that to DS. At the moment, he's
into generating the most smoke he can, hence burning different things
in different container. I could see this can possible lead to smoke
signals.
He's even enlist his best friend into it, so I'm having 2 aspie kids,
burning stuff every afternoon at the back garden LOL!!
It is interesting to watch them tho, because they seems very "ready
and prepared" to stamp out any burning that's getting too big to
control. This tells me that they are aware of the danger of fire
getting out of control.
Today DS dug out my hoard of flatten toys, carton and cereal boxes (i
knew this will come handy one day LOL!) and got arty with it. He made
a variety of things to be burnt. He even built a big "picnic table of
death, complete with a 3D apple, a magazine and a bag of crisp", all
out of cellotape and paper and the vacumm cleaner box.
Big Wide Grin
SharonBugs
> Has he put designs on wood? Magnifying glass or woodburning tool?----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's a good idea Sandra, will strew that to DS. At the moment, he's
into generating the most smoke he can, hence burning different things
in different container. I could see this can possible lead to smoke
signals.
He's even enlist his best friend into it, so I'm having 2 aspie kids,
burning stuff every afternoon at the back garden LOL!!
It is interesting to watch them tho, because they seems very "ready
and prepared" to stamp out any burning that's getting too big to
control. This tells me that they are aware of the danger of fire
getting out of control.
Today DS dug out my hoard of flatten toys, carton and cereal boxes (i
knew this will come handy one day LOL!) and got arty with it. He made
a variety of things to be burnt. He even built a big "picnic table of
death, complete with a 3D apple, a magazine and a bag of crisp", all
out of cellotape and paper and the vacumm cleaner box.
Big Wide Grin
SharonBugs
Robin Bentley
On Oct 27, 2008, at 2:35 PM, lyeping2008 wrote:
(though not burn - she currently has a fear of fire).
Robin B.
> "picnic table ofI love this! It sounds like something my dd would make and name
> death, complete with a 3D apple, a magazine and a bag of crisp"
(though not burn - she currently has a fear of fire).
Robin B.
Pamela Sorooshian
On Oct 27, 2008, at 2:35 PM, lyeping2008 wrote:
but I do know I LOVE anything smoked.
-pam
> That's a good idea Sandra, will strew that to DS. At the moment, he'sOr smoked meat or cheese or fruits/veggies? I know nothing about that,
> into generating the most smoke he can, hence burning different things
> in different container. I could see this can possible lead to smoke
> signals.
but I do know I LOVE anything smoked.
-pam
Jenny C
>What you use to smoke with will flavor the food. My dad uses mesquite a
> Or smoked meat or cheese or fruits/veggies? I know nothing about that,
> but I do know I LOVE anything smoked.
>
lot to smoke stuff. So, if you happen to live where mesquite grows,
then lucky you. All wood has different flavors, but stuff like
cardboard and paper wouldn't taste so good. I don't know though, I've
never tried it, it's just a hunch.
I love the way camp fires make my clothes smell! I always hate to wash
stuff when I get home from camping.
Margaret
The wood from fruit trees tastes good. You can save small branches
and twigs that you prune and use them when you barbecue. When I
bought my grape vines the guy at the nursery said to save the bits
that I pruned and use them when I barbecued chicken. I don't barbecue
much, but my mom was and we tossed some in when we put the meat in and
it tasted very nice. We did it with steak so the flavor was more
subtle, but it was still very nice.
Not smoking meat, but sort of related and definitely tasty!
and twigs that you prune and use them when you barbecue. When I
bought my grape vines the guy at the nursery said to save the bits
that I pruned and use them when I barbecued chicken. I don't barbecue
much, but my mom was and we tossed some in when we put the meat in and
it tasted very nice. We did it with steak so the flavor was more
subtle, but it was still very nice.
Not smoking meat, but sort of related and definitely tasty!
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Jenny C <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
>
>>
>> Or smoked meat or cheese or fruits/veggies? I know nothing about that,
>> but I do know I LOVE anything smoked.
>>
>
> What you use to smoke with will flavor the food. My dad uses mesquite a
> lot to smoke stuff. So, if you happen to live where mesquite grows,
> then lucky you. All wood has different flavors, but stuff like
> cardboard and paper wouldn't taste so good. I don't know though, I've
> never tried it, it's just a hunch.
>
> I love the way camp fires make my clothes smell! I always hate to wash
> stuff when I get home from camping.
>
>
Robin Bentley
>We have alderwood here, which is used to smoke/cook salmon. Yum. And I
> What you use to smoke with will flavor the food. My dad uses
> mesquite a
> lot to smoke stuff. So, if you happen to live where mesquite grows,
> then lucky you. All wood has different flavors, but stuff like
> cardboard and paper wouldn't taste so good. I don't know though, I've
> never tried it, it's just a hunch.
had smoked trout for the first time this summer. Double yum.
>Me, too. I have said that if someone could find a way to bottle it,
>
> I love the way camp fires make my clothes smell! I always hate to
> wash
> stuff when I get home from camping.
>
I'd wear it as perfume <g>. "Liquid Smoke" doesn't quite do it, though.
Robin B.
lyeping2008
--- In [email protected], Robin Bentley
<robin.bentley@...> wrote:
Hi Robin,
It's interesting you said this, because when I was replying
yesterday, it did cross my mind if he is somehow exorcising his old
fear of the fire.
My kid used to panic when he hears a siren of somesort, or
everywhere we went he'll be busy trying to spot that red fire
alarm. We eventually linked it back to the fire alarm drills thay
do at playschool. Ever since then, that fear stuck with him for
many years. Those were the days whereby he absolutely will not stay
once he spots the fire alarm. It actually got worse whereby if he
doesn't see it, he thinks it's hidden somewhere, and will still
insist on going home.
During our unschooling, we stayed home pretty much or if we do go
out, it is mostly to the park, I guessed he finally forgotten about
that fear, plus he is alittle bit older now, so he understands
better the meaning of sirens and fire alarms. With everything going
so well, I kinda forgot about his fear LOL!!
This now reminds me of something I've read a long time ago, about
allowing the child to work thru thier fears by touching the object
of fear, talkabout it or playing with it. It is when we remove the
object of fear that's when the fear will be stuck as such, forever.
Yes, I can see now it may be deeper than just some science
experiments. So there we go, another example of unschooling working
it's magic.
And all those talk about smoking food is getting ME really excited.
Hmmm...not into smoke meat but I'm gonna get some cheese and get the
kids to smoke it, for my snack LOL! Mind you, the boys did get one
of the neighbours started on thier bbq because I chargrilled food
LOL!!
Big Wide Grin
SharonBugs.
<robin.bentley@...> wrote:
> I love this! It sounds like something my dd would make and name---------------------------------------------------------------------
> (though not burn - she currently has a fear of fire). Robin B.
Hi Robin,
It's interesting you said this, because when I was replying
yesterday, it did cross my mind if he is somehow exorcising his old
fear of the fire.
My kid used to panic when he hears a siren of somesort, or
everywhere we went he'll be busy trying to spot that red fire
alarm. We eventually linked it back to the fire alarm drills thay
do at playschool. Ever since then, that fear stuck with him for
many years. Those were the days whereby he absolutely will not stay
once he spots the fire alarm. It actually got worse whereby if he
doesn't see it, he thinks it's hidden somewhere, and will still
insist on going home.
During our unschooling, we stayed home pretty much or if we do go
out, it is mostly to the park, I guessed he finally forgotten about
that fear, plus he is alittle bit older now, so he understands
better the meaning of sirens and fire alarms. With everything going
so well, I kinda forgot about his fear LOL!!
This now reminds me of something I've read a long time ago, about
allowing the child to work thru thier fears by touching the object
of fear, talkabout it or playing with it. It is when we remove the
object of fear that's when the fear will be stuck as such, forever.
Yes, I can see now it may be deeper than just some science
experiments. So there we go, another example of unschooling working
it's magic.
And all those talk about smoking food is getting ME really excited.
Hmmm...not into smoke meat but I'm gonna get some cheese and get the
kids to smoke it, for my snack LOL! Mind you, the boys did get one
of the neighbours started on thier bbq because I chargrilled food
LOL!!
Big Wide Grin
SharonBugs.
Sandra Dodd
-=-This seems like a sense of deja vu. I thought a few weeks ago, we did
had someone posted similar dilemma, also dealing with an adopted
daughter, now 15, with similar issues? -=-
Two or three people join every day, generally. Sometimes more.
There are people with kids in school this week who will take them out
next week. The same kinds of discussions come around regularly.
It's okay to bring links to other discussions (if you want to search
the archives and expose older threads for newer discussion that's fine).
-=-I believe unschooling is possible for any child with disability.
-=-Because it freedom, allowing you to accomodate the child's unique
abilities, and not highlight and try to fix thier disabilities.-=-
I think it's good not to even talk about "disabilities" when it can
be avoided.
Each child can only learn at his own pace, no matter how much he
might be in a learning spurt or downturn, or what particular
intelligences he has in abundance, or might be somewhat lacking.
People are different. Unschooling has always seemed ideal, to me,
for kids of ANY sort, but that's assuming the mother can get it. The
mother needs to change, and that's the hardest part.
YES, unschooling would be great for a child who is for whatever
reasons "behind the curve" in some area, but the parent can't just
utter the word "unschooling" and expect the child to change and start
learning all kinds of cool things on her own. The parents will need
to become unschooling parents.
-=-To me, limitation is only evident when measured against someone
else's expectation. -=-
Yes, and that's why one of the first things to let go of when people
come to unschooling should be labelling and comparisons, insofar as
they can move from seeing their child as one mark on a large graph to
being a whole, big human being whose life has been being lived and is
being lived and will continue to be lived, and the parents become
facilitators for improvements on the quality of that life!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
had someone posted similar dilemma, also dealing with an adopted
daughter, now 15, with similar issues? -=-
Two or three people join every day, generally. Sometimes more.
There are people with kids in school this week who will take them out
next week. The same kinds of discussions come around regularly.
It's okay to bring links to other discussions (if you want to search
the archives and expose older threads for newer discussion that's fine).
-=-I believe unschooling is possible for any child with disability.
-=-Because it freedom, allowing you to accomodate the child's unique
abilities, and not highlight and try to fix thier disabilities.-=-
I think it's good not to even talk about "disabilities" when it can
be avoided.
Each child can only learn at his own pace, no matter how much he
might be in a learning spurt or downturn, or what particular
intelligences he has in abundance, or might be somewhat lacking.
People are different. Unschooling has always seemed ideal, to me,
for kids of ANY sort, but that's assuming the mother can get it. The
mother needs to change, and that's the hardest part.
YES, unschooling would be great for a child who is for whatever
reasons "behind the curve" in some area, but the parent can't just
utter the word "unschooling" and expect the child to change and start
learning all kinds of cool things on her own. The parents will need
to become unschooling parents.
-=-To me, limitation is only evident when measured against someone
else's expectation. -=-
Yes, and that's why one of the first things to let go of when people
come to unschooling should be labelling and comparisons, insofar as
they can move from seeing their child as one mark on a large graph to
being a whole, big human being whose life has been being lived and is
being lived and will continue to be lived, and the parents become
facilitators for improvements on the quality of that life!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
PMB
"...to move forward with unschooling it might be time to look at what
"helped much" means. I think you have goals that are about making her
be "normal" or give the appearance of normal to the outside world."
This conversation struck a chord with me, as I came from a similar
spot. I had to first de-school myself from this perspective before I
could go ahead and tackle the rest of my unschooling journey.
Unfortunately trying to produce the appearance of "normal" is exactly
what it is all about when you are seeking help for your child from the
school, health authorities or whomever. And when you've spent years
and years all your time and energy fighting for "help" for your child,
it's very easy to get stuck in that fear that you will be quitting on
them or letting them down when you let this go.
Pat
"helped much" means. I think you have goals that are about making her
be "normal" or give the appearance of normal to the outside world."
This conversation struck a chord with me, as I came from a similar
spot. I had to first de-school myself from this perspective before I
could go ahead and tackle the rest of my unschooling journey.
Unfortunately trying to produce the appearance of "normal" is exactly
what it is all about when you are seeking help for your child from the
school, health authorities or whomever. And when you've spent years
and years all your time and energy fighting for "help" for your child,
it's very easy to get stuck in that fear that you will be quitting on
them or letting them down when you let this go.
Pat
Barb Jeffress
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 4:59 PM, bigforkmom
<green@...<green%40montanasky.us>>
responsibility to be ever vigilant, notice where connections aren't being
made, and take action. The assumption is that with the proper action, the
connection will follow. Which might be true if a child's mind were more
like some sort of machine in terms of cause and effect, but which tends to
produce frustration when dealing with actual, marvelously complex, human
beings. When the connections don't happen, is that the fault of the
"teacher" or the "student"? Does it have to be someone's fault? Could we
ever really know what kind of connections are happening in another person's
mind? As an unschooler I want to try, as Robyn said in another post
yesterday, to "appreciate where are children are now, who they are now,"
instead of constantly looking for what connections are missing and how to
create them. It doesn't mean I can't be aware of (and even thrilled by)
connections as they happen, it doesn't mean we stop living interesting busy
lives full of opportunities for connections, but do you think I'm accurate,
fellow unschoolers, in saying that it does mean that we stop seeing
ourselves as the catalyst? So that it stops being about what either the
learner or the adult have done "right" or "wrong"? I confess that I still
often struggle with worrying that maybe I haven't done enough, that maybe I
should be trying harder to help my three kids "progress". But it's
something I'm fighting against, because I see a big difference in our life
when I am able to live from a place of joy instead of a place of fear. I
don't want credit OR the blame for their connections, I just want happy full
lives for everybody.
Barb
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<green@...<green%40montanasky.us>>
>There are areas in which she hasn't been able to makeI think the conventional model would suggest that it's a parent or teacher's
> connections that I would think would be fairly normal for a fifteen
> year old
responsibility to be ever vigilant, notice where connections aren't being
made, and take action. The assumption is that with the proper action, the
connection will follow. Which might be true if a child's mind were more
like some sort of machine in terms of cause and effect, but which tends to
produce frustration when dealing with actual, marvelously complex, human
beings. When the connections don't happen, is that the fault of the
"teacher" or the "student"? Does it have to be someone's fault? Could we
ever really know what kind of connections are happening in another person's
mind? As an unschooler I want to try, as Robyn said in another post
yesterday, to "appreciate where are children are now, who they are now,"
instead of constantly looking for what connections are missing and how to
create them. It doesn't mean I can't be aware of (and even thrilled by)
connections as they happen, it doesn't mean we stop living interesting busy
lives full of opportunities for connections, but do you think I'm accurate,
fellow unschoolers, in saying that it does mean that we stop seeing
ourselves as the catalyst? So that it stops being about what either the
learner or the adult have done "right" or "wrong"? I confess that I still
often struggle with worrying that maybe I haven't done enough, that maybe I
should be trying harder to help my three kids "progress". But it's
something I'm fighting against, because I see a big difference in our life
when I am able to live from a place of joy instead of a place of fear. I
don't want credit OR the blame for their connections, I just want happy full
lives for everybody.
Barb
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
And when you've spent years
norm, doesn't really help the kids. The only purpose for those
programs, is to somehow find ways of making those kids try to fit the
norm, get them on "target", help them "succeed" in school. I had a
neighbor with a child suffering in this way, and everytime we talked
about it, it always came back to this, "what are the means to what
end?".
I think it really helps to see yourself and your child running towards
this other really awesome way of living, one focused on joy and
happiness and living in the moment, instead of running away from that
other school way of living that wasn't working. It's ok to keep in mind
what you know doesn't work, but the focus should be on what does.
> and years all your time and energy fighting for "help" for your child,What schools do to "help" kids that are in any way different from the
> it's very easy to get stuck in that fear that you will be quitting on
> them or letting them down when you let this go.
>
norm, doesn't really help the kids. The only purpose for those
programs, is to somehow find ways of making those kids try to fit the
norm, get them on "target", help them "succeed" in school. I had a
neighbor with a child suffering in this way, and everytime we talked
about it, it always came back to this, "what are the means to what
end?".
I think it really helps to see yourself and your child running towards
this other really awesome way of living, one focused on joy and
happiness and living in the moment, instead of running away from that
other school way of living that wasn't working. It's ok to keep in mind
what you know doesn't work, but the focus should be on what does.
Sandra Dodd
-=-Unfortunately trying to produce the appearance of "normal" is exactly
what it is all about when you are seeking help for your child from the
school, health authorities or whomever. And when you've spent years
and years all your time and energy fighting for "help" for your child,
it's very easy to get stuck in that fear that you will be quitting on
them or letting them down when you let this go.-=-
This is true, and not everyone can unschool. Not everyone who wants
to can, and not everyone who could do it easily and well wants to!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
what it is all about when you are seeking help for your child from the
school, health authorities or whomever. And when you've spent years
and years all your time and energy fighting for "help" for your child,
it's very easy to get stuck in that fear that you will be quitting on
them or letting them down when you let this go.-=-
This is true, and not everyone can unschool. Not everyone who wants
to can, and not everyone who could do it easily and well wants to!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-What schools do to "help" kids that are in any way different from the
norm, doesn't really help the kids.-=-
I don't think that's fair to say.
Some families are neglectful; some parents are ignorant, mean,
abusive, alcoholic druggies. Sometimes just having seven hours away
from a bad home is a world of help.
If a child is deaf or blind or has a serious speech impediment and
the parents didn't even have the wherewithal to nurture a fully-
functional talking, singing whiz kid, what the schools do to help
those kids might be the only help they've ever had.
A friend of mine taught pre-school for the deaf for many years. She
taught high school at the state school for the deaf before that. She
has told me stories of kids (MANY dozens of families over the years)
whose parents never learned to sign. They weren't interested. They
just sent their kids to school and then endured the days they were at
home, but didn't try to learn to communicate with them.
When you make a statement, try (please) not to make it as though
every family is an ideal unschooling family. Very few are.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
norm, doesn't really help the kids.-=-
I don't think that's fair to say.
Some families are neglectful; some parents are ignorant, mean,
abusive, alcoholic druggies. Sometimes just having seven hours away
from a bad home is a world of help.
If a child is deaf or blind or has a serious speech impediment and
the parents didn't even have the wherewithal to nurture a fully-
functional talking, singing whiz kid, what the schools do to help
those kids might be the only help they've ever had.
A friend of mine taught pre-school for the deaf for many years. She
taught high school at the state school for the deaf before that. She
has told me stories of kids (MANY dozens of families over the years)
whose parents never learned to sign. They weren't interested. They
just sent their kids to school and then endured the days they were at
home, but didn't try to learn to communicate with them.
When you make a statement, try (please) not to make it as though
every family is an ideal unschooling family. Very few are.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
> When you make a statement, try (please) not to make it as thoughIt's a "better than" scenario for some, but I still don't think special
> every family is an ideal unschooling family. Very few are.
>
ed things in school actually "help" kids. However your right, not
everyone parents in an ideal way and some kids WILL fare better because
of the school they are in.
I wish more parents were better parents!
Sandra Dodd
-=-I wish more parents were better parents!-=-
I think that because of unschooling (and some other related ideas)
there ARE better parents, so thanks for all your help (and others
here, but Jen's written lots) helping other parents!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think that because of unschooling (and some other related ideas)
there ARE better parents, so thanks for all your help (and others
here, but Jen's written lots) helping other parents!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-She cannot keep days of the week straight from months of the year.
She can't name all the months and she doesn't know what month
Christmas occurs in. She can't get the connection as to what
month comes after December. We use calendars all the time, trying
to present ideas that much younger children are typically absorbing.-=-
The way my kids learned months was from a song on a tape (now I
assume it's on a CD) called "Sounds Like Fun." They learned to count
by tens from that, too.
http://www.iqboosters.com/main_cart.php
Days of the week in order, and how long a month is (four weeks, and
some) they know from me singing the days of the week to Yankee Doodle
while I brushed their teeth.
Maybe you could just sing it in the car. Nobody has to "memorize"
the alphabet or anything else if they can run through a song in
their head.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
She can't name all the months and she doesn't know what month
Christmas occurs in. She can't get the connection as to what
month comes after December. We use calendars all the time, trying
to present ideas that much younger children are typically absorbing.-=-
The way my kids learned months was from a song on a tape (now I
assume it's on a CD) called "Sounds Like Fun." They learned to count
by tens from that, too.
http://www.iqboosters.com/main_cart.php
Days of the week in order, and how long a month is (four weeks, and
some) they know from me singing the days of the week to Yankee Doodle
while I brushed their teeth.
Maybe you could just sing it in the car. Nobody has to "memorize"
the alphabet or anything else if they can run through a song in
their head.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Margaret
I don't think it is deja vu. It is the same person. Someone named
Elaine from Montana wrote both messages from the same email address
(green@...).
I wonder if she didn't see the replies since the message seems to have
been delayed by yahoo and didn't show up on the list for several
months. If she didn't - Elaine, there is another huge thread about
the questions you posed back in June which would be worth reading :)
Elaine from Montana wrote both messages from the same email address
(green@...).
I wonder if she didn't see the replies since the message seems to have
been delayed by yahoo and didn't show up on the list for several
months. If she didn't - Elaine, there is another huge thread about
the questions you posed back in June which would be worth reading :)
On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 6:20 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> -=-This seems like a sense of deja vu. I thought a few weeks ago, we did
>
> had someone posted similar dilemma, also dealing with an adopted
> daughter, now 15, with similar issues? -=-
>
> Two or three people join every day, generally. Sometimes more.
> There are people with kids in school this week who will take them out
> next week. The same kinds of discussions come around regularly.
>
> It's okay to bring links to other discussions (if you want to search
> the archives and expose older threads for newer discussion that's fine).