Advice on how to deal with negative behavior - long
prism7513
I think for me the hardest part of unschooling isn't the academics, but
the whole living aspect. I know what I'm not supposed to do, and have
the concept of what I'm aiming for, but I get lost in all the specifics.
I went back and key-word searched for some ideas, read a few more pages
on Sandra's site (some I read before, some I didn't) and I'm still
coming up short. This is one area I really wish I had more examples of
in my own life to use when I need them.
Okay, first of would be my son. He's four and he's absolutely wonderful.
He is full of life and energy and happiness; is helpful and
compassionate, and just a joy to be around. But when he gets upset,
which tends to be fairly easily, and quite often, he goes off quickly
and loudly. He doesn't throw a kicking tantrum, and doesn't hurt things
or other people when he's mad, he just cries loudly. I tried a few times
to get him to breathe with me, but he doesn't want to, and I feel like
I'm just forcing an idea on him that he doesn't understand. He doesn't
like to look at me in the eye when he's in this state.
Mostly I just want to help him learn to calm down, be patient, and
whatever it is that he's mad about we can talk about and figure out.
He's always been more dramatic in his anger versus his other feelings,
but lately it's become a constant everyday thing. When his sister takes
a toy away, or won't share. When he wants to do something RIGHT NOW and
we just can't. Very good reasons to feel angry, but it tears me up when
he cries so hard and shuts us out.
I think a lot of it is that he is wanting to be in control of his world,
and though I help him with that as much as possible (he gets his own
food, puts on clothes, opens and closes van doors, etc) there are still
so many things that he can't do - like drive to the store on the
highway. We used to have a long driveway we'd let his sister drive down
but now we live in town and don't get that chance as often. But even
when I let him have something he really wants, it doesn't stop him from
wanting it again, now, already.
I know a lot of it is giving him more "yes's" than "no's", but sometimes
it seems like there's just not enough "yes's" for him. My daughter isn't
like this, so it's new for me. She's challenged me in many other ways :)
The second thing is deferring negative behavior in general. When I first
began understanding "radical" unschooling (apart from academic) I
finally began to grasp that it's not letting your kids do whatever they
want all the time, which is how I first understood the term. Safety is
still in place, and it's more about not limiting their choices to a box
than it is giving them the whole world at their fingertips to get lost
in. I loved Sandra's "balance" page...perfect for how I'm feeling,
trying to find that balance.
So with APing, I already don't spank, and I don't do time out. But to be
honest, I still haven't figured out quite what I should do when the kids
do something that simply isn't acceptable (hitting one another, grabbing
toys, etc.) Luckily, either I'm doing some things right, or I have
pretty good kids, but we don't have a lot of issues with this. But when
we do, I feel powerlesss, guilty, and unsure of what to do.
Tonight the kids were jumping on the couch. Now, if it was a new couch
then maybe I wouldn't let them do this, but to be honest the jumping
doesn't really bother me. It does bother DH only because he's afraid of
the kids getting hurt, and maybe he doesn't like the noise involved, but
otherwise it isn't the jumping on the couches that he disapproved of,
it's the manner in which they were jumping which could result in someone
getting hurt. (other things they do turn out the same way - they are
kids, afterall! But running, dancing, etc....)
So he had asked them to stop. And maybe asked them again (I was in the
kitchen doing dishes, so heard the commotion, but not his requests - he
didn't shout them.) But they kept jumping (because we used to threaten
with spankings, though we didn't actually spank anymore, and so formally
he would have threatened them and they would have stopped) and as has
happened before, one of them fell and hurt themselves (not badly, but he
made a huge deal of it at the time so Jim thought he was hurt bad.)
Jim's first reaction was to yell and unfortunately state the opposite of
how he actually felt, saying that he can't feel sympathy for someone who
was "asking for it," though he did apologize for yelling and explained
that he was only asking them to stop jumping because he was afraid
someone would get hurt (he is often more afraid of this than I am and
doesn't like a lot of the things I let them do, which maybe he's right,
I don't know?)
ANYWAY, I kind of got mad because he yelled, and I yelled at him (I
know, not helping) and was trying to explain what he should have done,
and he stated, "Well, since we aren't making the kids listen to us
anymore..." , and I tried to quickly think of what he should have maybe
done, so I said, "Well, then get them involved in another activity to
they aren't jumping anymore, " and he responded that his work was
important and he didn't have time to get them involved in something.
So as I thought about that, I eventually told him that there were at
least three choices he could have made: Let them jump, ignoring them,
and watch someone possibly get hurt and end up in the emergency room,
(his fear) which takes up LOTS of time, or yell at them to stop and MAKE
them, thus ignoring the style of parenting I'm trying to incorporate, or
take the 5 minutes to pique their interest in something else and go back
to finishing up your work, which I understand is important.
I know this may not have been the best response, but it's what I came up
with, and why I'm writing. I told him I make mistakes a lot, too, and I
honestly don't know how to handle things like that, either. I know we
don't have to let our kids run "wild" in unshcooling (I think that's
where the unparenting comes up, is those of us new to the lifestyle of
unschooling who lift all the barriers but have nothing in place to help
when things get out of control.)
I know I've seen Sandra use the term "and mean it" a couple of times,
and I read in an old post how she said to look the person in the eye,
and in that case remove an object the person was using for harm. But
what if the person is yelling mean things (like the kid in the car who
was backseat driving - what would you have done if they DIDN'T stop?)
Most times I find ways around it by distracting them, etc. But maybe
there's other things I can do but haven't thought of. I know other
parents are suprised (it may seem silly to those for whom unschooing
comes naturally) when they see that you don't allow all behaviors of
your children, because that is how I felt. I mistakenly thought that
giving your child freedom to choose meant letting them do and have
whatever they want.
But it's the guideing and shaping them, without putting unnecessary
limits on them. And I want to know how to put those necessary limits on
them in gentle ways...Just like my babies. After playing outside for an
hour, they always migrate towards the road or parking lot, and I end up
picking them up and placing them back in our yard, only to repeat with
the other one (twins.) After half a dozen times I simply take them
indoors because they are focused only on that forbidden place, and then
they cry when I stop them. I feel bad that they cry, but the playing in
the road is NOT an option. I have to hope that their crying is okay (and
temperary, of course, as I involve them in something fun inside) as my
priority is safety.
I also felt bad last night when we went to the zoo for a halloween
night. It's an hour away, and the babies don't do well with long drives.
So they fussed some of the way up there, fussed some of the time there
(and were held most of it since they fussed in the stroller) and fussed
most of the way home, with my persistant one crying on and off the whole
way. They also do this the few times we've been to my parents' home 3
hours away.
I hate letting them cry, and used to nurse my other two on long trips.
But I can't get between their seat and could only nurse one at a time,
anyway (I tried when they were younger, and whoever wasn't nursing cried
and made the other one anxious as well. We didn't make the trip again
for quite awhile.) Bottles and pacifiers never worked for my kids, and
toys and movies only go so far. They know what they want, and it's out
of the car seats. But for the rest of the family, our priority is to
enjoy something for the older kids (zoo, or Grandma's house) We don't do
it often because it's hard on the babies. But even so, I wonder if I'm
wrong in doing it at all, then.
I envy people who on another post talked about bringing their babies
with them everywhere. My babies have always slept okay anywhwere we go,
but it's the getting there that's difficult. Plus with the twins,
there's no free arm for me when they both need me and won't even go to
Jim. I am often holding one on each hip and rarely do they open up to
other people. So it's hard for me to figure out how to balance the
needs/desires of my older two with the needs/desires of my younger two.
Sometimes the older ones suffer because of the younger ones (playgrounds
are out unless I have another older person to help chase a baby who
loves climbing - I can only help one up a ladder.) And sometimes the
younger ones suffer for sake of the older ones (zoo) Is there a way to
make everyone happy? Short of time, that is :)
Sorry this is so long...these thoughts have been in my head awhile, and
after the short fuse incident tonight, I thought I'd ask. I just feel
bad always asking and not contributing a lot.
Deb
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the whole living aspect. I know what I'm not supposed to do, and have
the concept of what I'm aiming for, but I get lost in all the specifics.
I went back and key-word searched for some ideas, read a few more pages
on Sandra's site (some I read before, some I didn't) and I'm still
coming up short. This is one area I really wish I had more examples of
in my own life to use when I need them.
Okay, first of would be my son. He's four and he's absolutely wonderful.
He is full of life and energy and happiness; is helpful and
compassionate, and just a joy to be around. But when he gets upset,
which tends to be fairly easily, and quite often, he goes off quickly
and loudly. He doesn't throw a kicking tantrum, and doesn't hurt things
or other people when he's mad, he just cries loudly. I tried a few times
to get him to breathe with me, but he doesn't want to, and I feel like
I'm just forcing an idea on him that he doesn't understand. He doesn't
like to look at me in the eye when he's in this state.
Mostly I just want to help him learn to calm down, be patient, and
whatever it is that he's mad about we can talk about and figure out.
He's always been more dramatic in his anger versus his other feelings,
but lately it's become a constant everyday thing. When his sister takes
a toy away, or won't share. When he wants to do something RIGHT NOW and
we just can't. Very good reasons to feel angry, but it tears me up when
he cries so hard and shuts us out.
I think a lot of it is that he is wanting to be in control of his world,
and though I help him with that as much as possible (he gets his own
food, puts on clothes, opens and closes van doors, etc) there are still
so many things that he can't do - like drive to the store on the
highway. We used to have a long driveway we'd let his sister drive down
but now we live in town and don't get that chance as often. But even
when I let him have something he really wants, it doesn't stop him from
wanting it again, now, already.
I know a lot of it is giving him more "yes's" than "no's", but sometimes
it seems like there's just not enough "yes's" for him. My daughter isn't
like this, so it's new for me. She's challenged me in many other ways :)
The second thing is deferring negative behavior in general. When I first
began understanding "radical" unschooling (apart from academic) I
finally began to grasp that it's not letting your kids do whatever they
want all the time, which is how I first understood the term. Safety is
still in place, and it's more about not limiting their choices to a box
than it is giving them the whole world at their fingertips to get lost
in. I loved Sandra's "balance" page...perfect for how I'm feeling,
trying to find that balance.
So with APing, I already don't spank, and I don't do time out. But to be
honest, I still haven't figured out quite what I should do when the kids
do something that simply isn't acceptable (hitting one another, grabbing
toys, etc.) Luckily, either I'm doing some things right, or I have
pretty good kids, but we don't have a lot of issues with this. But when
we do, I feel powerlesss, guilty, and unsure of what to do.
Tonight the kids were jumping on the couch. Now, if it was a new couch
then maybe I wouldn't let them do this, but to be honest the jumping
doesn't really bother me. It does bother DH only because he's afraid of
the kids getting hurt, and maybe he doesn't like the noise involved, but
otherwise it isn't the jumping on the couches that he disapproved of,
it's the manner in which they were jumping which could result in someone
getting hurt. (other things they do turn out the same way - they are
kids, afterall! But running, dancing, etc....)
So he had asked them to stop. And maybe asked them again (I was in the
kitchen doing dishes, so heard the commotion, but not his requests - he
didn't shout them.) But they kept jumping (because we used to threaten
with spankings, though we didn't actually spank anymore, and so formally
he would have threatened them and they would have stopped) and as has
happened before, one of them fell and hurt themselves (not badly, but he
made a huge deal of it at the time so Jim thought he was hurt bad.)
Jim's first reaction was to yell and unfortunately state the opposite of
how he actually felt, saying that he can't feel sympathy for someone who
was "asking for it," though he did apologize for yelling and explained
that he was only asking them to stop jumping because he was afraid
someone would get hurt (he is often more afraid of this than I am and
doesn't like a lot of the things I let them do, which maybe he's right,
I don't know?)
ANYWAY, I kind of got mad because he yelled, and I yelled at him (I
know, not helping) and was trying to explain what he should have done,
and he stated, "Well, since we aren't making the kids listen to us
anymore..." , and I tried to quickly think of what he should have maybe
done, so I said, "Well, then get them involved in another activity to
they aren't jumping anymore, " and he responded that his work was
important and he didn't have time to get them involved in something.
So as I thought about that, I eventually told him that there were at
least three choices he could have made: Let them jump, ignoring them,
and watch someone possibly get hurt and end up in the emergency room,
(his fear) which takes up LOTS of time, or yell at them to stop and MAKE
them, thus ignoring the style of parenting I'm trying to incorporate, or
take the 5 minutes to pique their interest in something else and go back
to finishing up your work, which I understand is important.
I know this may not have been the best response, but it's what I came up
with, and why I'm writing. I told him I make mistakes a lot, too, and I
honestly don't know how to handle things like that, either. I know we
don't have to let our kids run "wild" in unshcooling (I think that's
where the unparenting comes up, is those of us new to the lifestyle of
unschooling who lift all the barriers but have nothing in place to help
when things get out of control.)
I know I've seen Sandra use the term "and mean it" a couple of times,
and I read in an old post how she said to look the person in the eye,
and in that case remove an object the person was using for harm. But
what if the person is yelling mean things (like the kid in the car who
was backseat driving - what would you have done if they DIDN'T stop?)
Most times I find ways around it by distracting them, etc. But maybe
there's other things I can do but haven't thought of. I know other
parents are suprised (it may seem silly to those for whom unschooing
comes naturally) when they see that you don't allow all behaviors of
your children, because that is how I felt. I mistakenly thought that
giving your child freedom to choose meant letting them do and have
whatever they want.
But it's the guideing and shaping them, without putting unnecessary
limits on them. And I want to know how to put those necessary limits on
them in gentle ways...Just like my babies. After playing outside for an
hour, they always migrate towards the road or parking lot, and I end up
picking them up and placing them back in our yard, only to repeat with
the other one (twins.) After half a dozen times I simply take them
indoors because they are focused only on that forbidden place, and then
they cry when I stop them. I feel bad that they cry, but the playing in
the road is NOT an option. I have to hope that their crying is okay (and
temperary, of course, as I involve them in something fun inside) as my
priority is safety.
I also felt bad last night when we went to the zoo for a halloween
night. It's an hour away, and the babies don't do well with long drives.
So they fussed some of the way up there, fussed some of the time there
(and were held most of it since they fussed in the stroller) and fussed
most of the way home, with my persistant one crying on and off the whole
way. They also do this the few times we've been to my parents' home 3
hours away.
I hate letting them cry, and used to nurse my other two on long trips.
But I can't get between their seat and could only nurse one at a time,
anyway (I tried when they were younger, and whoever wasn't nursing cried
and made the other one anxious as well. We didn't make the trip again
for quite awhile.) Bottles and pacifiers never worked for my kids, and
toys and movies only go so far. They know what they want, and it's out
of the car seats. But for the rest of the family, our priority is to
enjoy something for the older kids (zoo, or Grandma's house) We don't do
it often because it's hard on the babies. But even so, I wonder if I'm
wrong in doing it at all, then.
I envy people who on another post talked about bringing their babies
with them everywhere. My babies have always slept okay anywhwere we go,
but it's the getting there that's difficult. Plus with the twins,
there's no free arm for me when they both need me and won't even go to
Jim. I am often holding one on each hip and rarely do they open up to
other people. So it's hard for me to figure out how to balance the
needs/desires of my older two with the needs/desires of my younger two.
Sometimes the older ones suffer because of the younger ones (playgrounds
are out unless I have another older person to help chase a baby who
loves climbing - I can only help one up a ladder.) And sometimes the
younger ones suffer for sake of the older ones (zoo) Is there a way to
make everyone happy? Short of time, that is :)
Sorry this is so long...these thoughts have been in my head awhile, and
after the short fuse incident tonight, I thought I'd ask. I just feel
bad always asking and not contributing a lot.
Deb
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 19, 2008, at 11:49 PM, prism7513 wrote:
others have tried. But I think you're focusing on fixing a meltdown
when the first plan is to get to the child when you can see signals
that are leading toward a meltdown and fix that instead. Obviously
that doesn't get everything. So next is to be there to comfort them
through the meltdown rather than fix their feelings (eg, stop the
meltdown). You'll need to try lots of different things. Try asking
when he's far from a meltdown what he likes and what he doesn't like.
If he had a puppy and it died, would you expect him to get over his
feelings immediately? When he's frustrated or overwhelmed or
whatever, he needs to process the feelings. I think you're trying to
rush him through it.
I know you have lots of questions, but it will help you to help
yourself better if you post one problem at a time. Most people don't
have oodles of time to dig into multiple problems in one email.
They're likely to set it aside until they find the time, which, for
many, might be never. I probably could have written a lot more for
each problem, but there just isn't time, so you're basically cheating
yourself of more thorough answers.
stopping their fun rather than trusting that you want to work with
them to find safe and acceptable ways to do what they want.
Think proactively. If they're jumping on the couch, how about a
trampoline. Or a couple of cheap mattresses on the floor. Find ways
they *can* jump.
Yes, Sandra can say stop. A long time radically unschooled child
hears "Wait, there's a problem with that. Let's find a better way,"
when mom says stop. Conventionally parented children just hear
"Stop." Our kids trust we're trying to help. Your kids don't yet
trust you.
driving a long distance when you knew they couldn't, you set them up
to fail.
There's lots of things you'll need to pass on and find alternatives
that will work for now. If the twins can stay with someone, you could
have done that. Or if your husband could have taken the kids. Or one
of the other people attending could have taken your kids.
Is there a way your husband could have gotten you to enjoy a
Christmas party when he knew you had a migraine going into it?
The babies aren't the problem. The problem is kids who want seemingly
incompatible things. Focus on how to balance two different needs (you
can ask what others have done :-) rather than how uncooperative the
babies are.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I tried a few timesYou might try searching for meltdown in the archives for some things
> to get him to breathe with me, but he doesn't want to, and I feel like
> I'm just forcing an idea on him that he doesn't understand. He doesn't
> like to look at me in the eye when he's in this state.
others have tried. But I think you're focusing on fixing a meltdown
when the first plan is to get to the child when you can see signals
that are leading toward a meltdown and fix that instead. Obviously
that doesn't get everything. So next is to be there to comfort them
through the meltdown rather than fix their feelings (eg, stop the
meltdown). You'll need to try lots of different things. Try asking
when he's far from a meltdown what he likes and what he doesn't like.
If he had a puppy and it died, would you expect him to get over his
feelings immediately? When he's frustrated or overwhelmed or
whatever, he needs to process the feelings. I think you're trying to
rush him through it.
I know you have lots of questions, but it will help you to help
yourself better if you post one problem at a time. Most people don't
have oodles of time to dig into multiple problems in one email.
They're likely to set it aside until they find the time, which, for
many, might be never. I probably could have written a lot more for
each problem, but there just isn't time, so you're basically cheating
yourself of more thorough answers.
> But to beIt *will* be tricky at the beginning. The kids are used to you
> honest, I still haven't figured out quite what I should do when the
> kids
> do something that simply isn't acceptable
>
stopping their fun rather than trusting that you want to work with
them to find safe and acceptable ways to do what they want.
Think proactively. If they're jumping on the couch, how about a
trampoline. Or a couple of cheap mattresses on the floor. Find ways
they *can* jump.
Yes, Sandra can say stop. A long time radically unschooled child
hears "Wait, there's a problem with that. Let's find a better way,"
when mom says stop. Conventionally parented children just hear
"Stop." Our kids trust we're trying to help. Your kids don't yet
trust you.
> It's an hour away, and the babies don't do well with long drives.You solve that by not putting them in a position to be miserable. By
>
driving a long distance when you knew they couldn't, you set them up
to fail.
There's lots of things you'll need to pass on and find alternatives
that will work for now. If the twins can stay with someone, you could
have done that. Or if your husband could have taken the kids. Or one
of the other people attending could have taken your kids.
Is there a way your husband could have gotten you to enjoy a
Christmas party when he knew you had a migraine going into it?
The babies aren't the problem. The problem is kids who want seemingly
incompatible things. Focus on how to balance two different needs (you
can ask what others have done :-) rather than how uncooperative the
babies are.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I know what I'm not supposed to do, and have
the concept of what I'm aiming for, but I get lost in all the
specifics.-=-
That's why it helps to move toward principles and away from rules.
Principles are not specific. They're general. They're about how to
decide.
If you want learning and peace, then when you make a choice, make a
peaceful choice that allows for learning.
http://sandradodd.com/rules
http://sandradodd.com/strewing
http://sandradodd.com/life
-=-I tried a few times to get him to breathe with me, but he doesn't
want to, and I feel like I'm just forcing an idea on him that he
doesn't understand. He doesn't like to look at me in the eye when
he's in this state.-=-
I don't think anyone here asked you to try to have him look you in
the eye when he's frantic.
-=-But when he gets upset, which tends to be fairly easily, and quite
often...-=-
Talk to him when he's happy and calm about how he can avoid that fast
anger by breathing deeply when he's getting angry, not after he's
furious. (It will work to calm fury, too, but you can't talk to him
at that point, so do it at a calm time.)
More important than that, though, look at what's happening before he
gets angry, and make sure that you yourself are practicing that
calming breathing. Don't make it into a thing that's just for kids.
Do it yourself until you *know* it works, instead of recommending it
to him because you read about it.
If you adopt these ideas into your own mom life and start to
understand them at a physical level, in a thoughtful way, then you'll
have something to give besides words and vague ideas.
-=-I tried a few times to get him to breathe with me, but he doesn't
want to, and I feel like I'm just forcing an idea on him that he
doesn't understand. -=-
Holding him, rocking him, while you're breathing slowly, could have
the same effect, and it has nothing to do with an idea he might or
might not understand.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the concept of what I'm aiming for, but I get lost in all the
specifics.-=-
That's why it helps to move toward principles and away from rules.
Principles are not specific. They're general. They're about how to
decide.
If you want learning and peace, then when you make a choice, make a
peaceful choice that allows for learning.
http://sandradodd.com/rules
http://sandradodd.com/strewing
http://sandradodd.com/life
-=-I tried a few times to get him to breathe with me, but he doesn't
want to, and I feel like I'm just forcing an idea on him that he
doesn't understand. He doesn't like to look at me in the eye when
he's in this state.-=-
I don't think anyone here asked you to try to have him look you in
the eye when he's frantic.
-=-But when he gets upset, which tends to be fairly easily, and quite
often...-=-
Talk to him when he's happy and calm about how he can avoid that fast
anger by breathing deeply when he's getting angry, not after he's
furious. (It will work to calm fury, too, but you can't talk to him
at that point, so do it at a calm time.)
More important than that, though, look at what's happening before he
gets angry, and make sure that you yourself are practicing that
calming breathing. Don't make it into a thing that's just for kids.
Do it yourself until you *know* it works, instead of recommending it
to him because you read about it.
If you adopt these ideas into your own mom life and start to
understand them at a physical level, in a thoughtful way, then you'll
have something to give besides words and vague ideas.
-=-I tried a few times to get him to breathe with me, but he doesn't
want to, and I feel like I'm just forcing an idea on him that he
doesn't understand. -=-
Holding him, rocking him, while you're breathing slowly, could have
the same effect, and it has nothing to do with an idea he might or
might not understand.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Angela Shaw
What type of things upset your son so much? It sounds like you have your
hands full with your growing family, but if you can find a way to be more
present with him maybe you can avoid having him get to that point. Perhaps
if you talk to him during a quiet time and let him know you want to help him
but he needs to come to you and let you help him find a solution by telling
you what is frustrating him before he is in a rage, it would help.
Maybe he's tried before and you haven't intervened and so he doesn't bother?
I don't know but I do know that many people see kids fighting as normal and
they don't step in and help them communicate in a way that finds a solution
they can both live with. They see the fighting as normal or don't want to
spend the time to get to the bottom of what caused it and so they punish
them for fighting or just ignore it. The other thing I have noticed as a
difference between parents is that some don't notice issues at all until it
is a full blown tantrum. I have a relative who I really enjoy visiting with
but she can really only focus on one thing at a time and if she is visiting
with me, her kids cries (not real cries, but little frustrations) go
unnoticed until they have a full blown tantrum. She never sees it coming
and I see it from miles away. Now I always try to step in and help the kid
or say something to her because she just doesn't see it coming. She's just
wired differently than I am. I am very sensitive to all the stimulus around
me and very sensitive to people's emotions.
My husband sounds a lot like your husband. He works on the road a lot too
so that always made it harder because he was gone a lot. He wasn't trying
to be a hard ass, he just worried (a lot) and was reactive when they jumped
on the furniture, or did something that he thought they might get hurt
doing. What made it even more difficult is that I would allow those
behaviors when he wasn't home and so when he came home and said NO, they
didn't listen because they always did those things. When he was home and
clearly getting upset, I would ask them to stop because it worried their dad
and if they wouldn't listen I'd try to find something exciting we could do
to distract them. (mine always liked to play outside) In private sometimes
I would talk to him about their great body awareness and how careful they
really were and that they didn't want to get hurt either. Not sure if it
helped but eventually he got less anxious or they grew up, not sure which.
It's hard sometimes to see our kids be upset and to feel like you can't fix
the problem. When my kids were that age and crying in disappointment or for
some reason that I couldn't find a way to help them with, a lot of times I
would just hug them. They might be stiff at first but it wasn't long before
they would melt in my arms and we'd talk about the disappointment and then
they would move on. They knew that I always made a huge effort to help them
get what they wanted and so the disappointed and frustrated times were few
and far between and I think they got over them quicker because they did know
I was on their team.
My girls were pretty needy girls when they were babies and toddlers. They
were 21 months apart. They both HATED car seats. There were times I was
leaned over nursed them too. But mostly, despite what other people wanted
from me, I only went places where I felt I could meet their needs. (which
meant keeping my sanity) Often grandparents had to come to my house or
friends who liked to get out more would come to my house to visit since they
weren't as overwhelmed as I might be. I was fortunate though that my kids
were pretty close in age and I didn't have older ones and younger ones. I
knew that was something I couldn't handle, tbh. I was overwhelmed with 2.
There probably is no way to make it possible for them to all do what they
want or have what they need at the same time but if they know you are always
trying to find ways to make it work.so that they get to do some things they
like, they will probably be more forgiving when it doesn't work out for
them. I always talked about it too. I pointed out (not in a mean way) when
I worked it out so that we could do such and such so they could see how I
was planning and working to make things happen. Esp. when the kids were
littler (they are 12 and almost 14 now) I'd always plan ahead and bring
things they liked to play with when we went places they didn't want to go.
I'm wondering if you can find a mother's helper to go with you sometimes.
(like the zoo) Onlies work well or pre-teens who like little kids. You
could maybe pay them something but some might like to come just to go to the
zoo and help you.
Angela
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hands full with your growing family, but if you can find a way to be more
present with him maybe you can avoid having him get to that point. Perhaps
if you talk to him during a quiet time and let him know you want to help him
but he needs to come to you and let you help him find a solution by telling
you what is frustrating him before he is in a rage, it would help.
Maybe he's tried before and you haven't intervened and so he doesn't bother?
I don't know but I do know that many people see kids fighting as normal and
they don't step in and help them communicate in a way that finds a solution
they can both live with. They see the fighting as normal or don't want to
spend the time to get to the bottom of what caused it and so they punish
them for fighting or just ignore it. The other thing I have noticed as a
difference between parents is that some don't notice issues at all until it
is a full blown tantrum. I have a relative who I really enjoy visiting with
but she can really only focus on one thing at a time and if she is visiting
with me, her kids cries (not real cries, but little frustrations) go
unnoticed until they have a full blown tantrum. She never sees it coming
and I see it from miles away. Now I always try to step in and help the kid
or say something to her because she just doesn't see it coming. She's just
wired differently than I am. I am very sensitive to all the stimulus around
me and very sensitive to people's emotions.
My husband sounds a lot like your husband. He works on the road a lot too
so that always made it harder because he was gone a lot. He wasn't trying
to be a hard ass, he just worried (a lot) and was reactive when they jumped
on the furniture, or did something that he thought they might get hurt
doing. What made it even more difficult is that I would allow those
behaviors when he wasn't home and so when he came home and said NO, they
didn't listen because they always did those things. When he was home and
clearly getting upset, I would ask them to stop because it worried their dad
and if they wouldn't listen I'd try to find something exciting we could do
to distract them. (mine always liked to play outside) In private sometimes
I would talk to him about their great body awareness and how careful they
really were and that they didn't want to get hurt either. Not sure if it
helped but eventually he got less anxious or they grew up, not sure which.
It's hard sometimes to see our kids be upset and to feel like you can't fix
the problem. When my kids were that age and crying in disappointment or for
some reason that I couldn't find a way to help them with, a lot of times I
would just hug them. They might be stiff at first but it wasn't long before
they would melt in my arms and we'd talk about the disappointment and then
they would move on. They knew that I always made a huge effort to help them
get what they wanted and so the disappointed and frustrated times were few
and far between and I think they got over them quicker because they did know
I was on their team.
My girls were pretty needy girls when they were babies and toddlers. They
were 21 months apart. They both HATED car seats. There were times I was
leaned over nursed them too. But mostly, despite what other people wanted
from me, I only went places where I felt I could meet their needs. (which
meant keeping my sanity) Often grandparents had to come to my house or
friends who liked to get out more would come to my house to visit since they
weren't as overwhelmed as I might be. I was fortunate though that my kids
were pretty close in age and I didn't have older ones and younger ones. I
knew that was something I couldn't handle, tbh. I was overwhelmed with 2.
There probably is no way to make it possible for them to all do what they
want or have what they need at the same time but if they know you are always
trying to find ways to make it work.so that they get to do some things they
like, they will probably be more forgiving when it doesn't work out for
them. I always talked about it too. I pointed out (not in a mean way) when
I worked it out so that we could do such and such so they could see how I
was planning and working to make things happen. Esp. when the kids were
littler (they are 12 and almost 14 now) I'd always plan ahead and bring
things they liked to play with when we went places they didn't want to go.
I'm wondering if you can find a mother's helper to go with you sometimes.
(like the zoo) Onlies work well or pre-teens who like little kids. You
could maybe pay them something but some might like to come just to go to the
zoo and help you.
Angela
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I mistakenly thought that giving your child freedom to choose
meant letting them do and have
whatever they want.-=-
-=-those of us new to the lifestyle of unschooling who lift all the
barriers-=-
Okay. Where is this advice to lift all the barriers? I need to go
and put pointers to warnings everywhere. Please, seriously, where
are the ideas coming from that are causing this chaos?
Anyone who has any ideas about where these "suddenly abandon
everything" ideas are coming from, please let me know. I can link to
advice about going more slowly. It will save confusion.
If you're on a discussion list and someone says "Just let it all go
today, right now," maybe ask on the list whether that might not cause
problems, and let someone who can figure out how to recommend a
gradual changeover make some suggestions. Please.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
meant letting them do and have
whatever they want.-=-
-=-those of us new to the lifestyle of unschooling who lift all the
barriers-=-
Okay. Where is this advice to lift all the barriers? I need to go
and put pointers to warnings everywhere. Please, seriously, where
are the ideas coming from that are causing this chaos?
Anyone who has any ideas about where these "suddenly abandon
everything" ideas are coming from, please let me know. I can link to
advice about going more slowly. It will save confusion.
If you're on a discussion list and someone says "Just let it all go
today, right now," maybe ask on the list whether that might not cause
problems, and let someone who can figure out how to recommend a
gradual changeover make some suggestions. Please.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Verna
Many of the things you describe sound very much like our house. We
have 4 kids, ages 3-7. I dont always deal with it all perfectly or
even close to and I have one that screams very loudly, very quickly,
fairly often when frustrated. We also have some of the same issues
with couch jumping etc.. I dont mind it... my husband hates it.
Keeping myself calm and collected during a tantrum goes along way,
sitting down and getting at my sons level helps to. Expressing an
understanding of the frustration or fear he might be feeling helps with
him. Not telling him when to stop crying. Scheduling times to do the
things he really wants and we cant do also helps. Like he wants a lego
set... dont have the money now so we will go buy it next week when my
husband gets paid. I sometimes focus so much on how upset my son seems
to get when frustrated and forget to notice the times he is patient.
This morning he wanted to get on the computer. I needed to help the
younger kids get dressed and dress myself. He waited about 30 minutes
and then we ran out of time cause we had to be somewhere and so he had
to wait while we ran an errand and came back home and he was very
patient. I dont think that is bad for a 5 year old. If I want to do
something on the computer I have a hard time waiting like that. So I
guess I am saying try to focus on the positives.
have 4 kids, ages 3-7. I dont always deal with it all perfectly or
even close to and I have one that screams very loudly, very quickly,
fairly often when frustrated. We also have some of the same issues
with couch jumping etc.. I dont mind it... my husband hates it.
Keeping myself calm and collected during a tantrum goes along way,
sitting down and getting at my sons level helps to. Expressing an
understanding of the frustration or fear he might be feeling helps with
him. Not telling him when to stop crying. Scheduling times to do the
things he really wants and we cant do also helps. Like he wants a lego
set... dont have the money now so we will go buy it next week when my
husband gets paid. I sometimes focus so much on how upset my son seems
to get when frustrated and forget to notice the times he is patient.
This morning he wanted to get on the computer. I needed to help the
younger kids get dressed and dress myself. He waited about 30 minutes
and then we ran out of time cause we had to be somewhere and so he had
to wait while we ran an errand and came back home and he was very
patient. I dont think that is bad for a 5 year old. If I want to do
something on the computer I have a hard time waiting like that. So I
guess I am saying try to focus on the positives.
Sandra Dodd
-=-I think a lot of it is that he is wanting to be in control of his
world,
and though I help him with that as much as possible (he gets his own
food, puts on clothes, opens and closes van doors, etc) there are still
so many things that he can't do - like drive to the store on the
highway. We used to have a long driveway we'd let his sister drive down
but now we live in town and don't get that chance as often. But even
when I let him have something he really wants, it doesn't stop him from
wanting it again, now, already.-=-
Did he WANT to get his own food and open and close van doors? I'm
just guessing from your overall tone that maybe you're trying to
communicate that if he does things for himself he's "in control of
his world." Making choices isn't about "being in control" so much as
it is about having some leeway to make decisions.
I hope you haven't told him he's "in control," because that would be
a sure way to piss him off when his controls don't work, and if he
was told "you're in control," and he figures out he's clearly not
controlling everyone and everything around him, he might think less
of you and your perceptions.
-=-Mostly I just want to help him learn to calm down, be patient, and
whatever it is that he's mad about we can talk about and figure out.-=-
You said he goes off "fairly easily, and quite often." Something's
happening quite often before he goes off.
With some kids it helps for the mom to ask them to help with the
logistics of something, like if you're going out, ask him to help you
remember what needs to go in the car, or whether you need to leave a
note or make a phone call, or check to see if things are turned off
(lights, stove, whatever). Some kids aren't interested, but for
those who are, it's a way for them to see what's involved in such
things. Don't make him responsible (not in any way in which he'll
have failed if you forget something), but he could help out (if he
wants).
Don't do it in a condescending way, like a puzzle or a quiz. Do it
as you might with an adult friend: "What might I be forgetting?"
-=-I know a lot of it is giving him more "yes's" than "no's", but
sometimes it seems like there's just not enough "yes's" for him.-=-
Have you asked him, when he's calm?
Does he have his own space in the house? Is he getting to sleep
where he wants to? Is he made to sleep alone? Do you wake him up
before he's ready to wake up? Is he needing more fruit, or more
protein, or more exercise? Is he getting a chance to run and climb
and roll and jump?
-=-Jim's first reaction was to yell and unfortunately state the
opposite of how he actually felt, saying that he can't feel sympathy
for someone who was "asking for it,"... -=-
Why are you telling us that your husband stated the opposite of how
he actually felt? I don't want an answer on the list. I want you to
consider yourself, seriously, whether you also tell your kids that
they have said something contrary to what they "actually feel." I'm
guessing your husband was actually angry, and was frustrated, and you
didn't come in from the other room to help, but instead you waited
until there was something to yell about.
-=-and he stated, "Well, since we aren't making the kids listen to us
anymore..." , and I tried to quickly think of what he should have
maybe done, so I said, "Well, then get them involved in another
activity to they aren't jumping anymore, "-=-
You don't get to think of what he should have done.
Words are important. You might make suggestions about what he might
have done (and you did), but when you write to this list (or
anywhere), look at the words you're using before you send it. Think
about what you're saying, which is representative of what you're
thinking.
-=-So as I thought about that, I eventually told him that there were
at least three choices he could have made: Let them jump, ignoring
them, and watch someone possibly get hurt and end up in the emergency
room, (his fear) which takes up LOTS of time, or yell at them to stop
and MAKE them, thus ignoring the style of parenting I'm trying to
incorporate-=-
YOU need to incorporate it. You can't deputize your husband and
require him to do what you want him to do.
-=-I know I've seen Sandra use the term "and mean it" a couple of times,
and I read in an old post how she said to look the person in the eye,
and in that case remove an object the person was using for harm. But
what if the person is yelling mean things (like the kid in the car who
was backseat driving - what would you have done if they DIDN'T stop?)-=-
I wasn't talking about my own children in that instance. I was
talking about visitors. I will protect and defend my children's
peace and safety if it means sending someone out of my house, or
limiting someone else's access to our family outings. In a
heartbeat, if a visitor (adult or child) doesn't care what I think
about what's good or safe for my kids, they're not nearly as likely
to be invited back.
For me to have given an example of looking a person right in the eye
in a particular situation doesn't mean in EVERY situation you use
that aggressive tool, because it IS aggression, in primates.
-=-After playing outside for an hour, they always migrate towards the
road or parking lot, and I end up picking them up and placing them
back in our yard, only to repeat with the other one (twins.) -=-
Be out there with them.
-=-After half a dozen times I simply take them indoors because they
are focused only on that forbidden place,...-=-
Take them somewhere where they can run around more. Don't limit them
to wherever the dangerous place is they're playing.
-=-I also felt bad last night when we went to the zoo for a halloween
night. It's an hour away, and the babies don't do well with long
drives.-=-
Mornings seemed better for my kids, for long rides. An hour's too
far to go for Halloween activities. Wait for Halloween, take them
around the neighborhood, and come home. No messy car rides required.
-=-They also do this the few times we've been to my parents' home 3
hours away.-=-
Get your parents to come to you. For the price of gasoline for six
hours of driving, you could get them a motel room if you don't have
room at your place. Go out to parks, fast-food, pizza places with
play areas. Find situations in which your kids will be smiley and
happy and your parents can see them in joyful action, not a quiet
visit-grandparents after a three hour car ride.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
world,
and though I help him with that as much as possible (he gets his own
food, puts on clothes, opens and closes van doors, etc) there are still
so many things that he can't do - like drive to the store on the
highway. We used to have a long driveway we'd let his sister drive down
but now we live in town and don't get that chance as often. But even
when I let him have something he really wants, it doesn't stop him from
wanting it again, now, already.-=-
Did he WANT to get his own food and open and close van doors? I'm
just guessing from your overall tone that maybe you're trying to
communicate that if he does things for himself he's "in control of
his world." Making choices isn't about "being in control" so much as
it is about having some leeway to make decisions.
I hope you haven't told him he's "in control," because that would be
a sure way to piss him off when his controls don't work, and if he
was told "you're in control," and he figures out he's clearly not
controlling everyone and everything around him, he might think less
of you and your perceptions.
-=-Mostly I just want to help him learn to calm down, be patient, and
whatever it is that he's mad about we can talk about and figure out.-=-
You said he goes off "fairly easily, and quite often." Something's
happening quite often before he goes off.
With some kids it helps for the mom to ask them to help with the
logistics of something, like if you're going out, ask him to help you
remember what needs to go in the car, or whether you need to leave a
note or make a phone call, or check to see if things are turned off
(lights, stove, whatever). Some kids aren't interested, but for
those who are, it's a way for them to see what's involved in such
things. Don't make him responsible (not in any way in which he'll
have failed if you forget something), but he could help out (if he
wants).
Don't do it in a condescending way, like a puzzle or a quiz. Do it
as you might with an adult friend: "What might I be forgetting?"
-=-I know a lot of it is giving him more "yes's" than "no's", but
sometimes it seems like there's just not enough "yes's" for him.-=-
Have you asked him, when he's calm?
Does he have his own space in the house? Is he getting to sleep
where he wants to? Is he made to sleep alone? Do you wake him up
before he's ready to wake up? Is he needing more fruit, or more
protein, or more exercise? Is he getting a chance to run and climb
and roll and jump?
-=-Jim's first reaction was to yell and unfortunately state the
opposite of how he actually felt, saying that he can't feel sympathy
for someone who was "asking for it,"... -=-
Why are you telling us that your husband stated the opposite of how
he actually felt? I don't want an answer on the list. I want you to
consider yourself, seriously, whether you also tell your kids that
they have said something contrary to what they "actually feel." I'm
guessing your husband was actually angry, and was frustrated, and you
didn't come in from the other room to help, but instead you waited
until there was something to yell about.
-=-and he stated, "Well, since we aren't making the kids listen to us
anymore..." , and I tried to quickly think of what he should have
maybe done, so I said, "Well, then get them involved in another
activity to they aren't jumping anymore, "-=-
You don't get to think of what he should have done.
Words are important. You might make suggestions about what he might
have done (and you did), but when you write to this list (or
anywhere), look at the words you're using before you send it. Think
about what you're saying, which is representative of what you're
thinking.
-=-So as I thought about that, I eventually told him that there were
at least three choices he could have made: Let them jump, ignoring
them, and watch someone possibly get hurt and end up in the emergency
room, (his fear) which takes up LOTS of time, or yell at them to stop
and MAKE them, thus ignoring the style of parenting I'm trying to
incorporate-=-
YOU need to incorporate it. You can't deputize your husband and
require him to do what you want him to do.
-=-I know I've seen Sandra use the term "and mean it" a couple of times,
and I read in an old post how she said to look the person in the eye,
and in that case remove an object the person was using for harm. But
what if the person is yelling mean things (like the kid in the car who
was backseat driving - what would you have done if they DIDN'T stop?)-=-
I wasn't talking about my own children in that instance. I was
talking about visitors. I will protect and defend my children's
peace and safety if it means sending someone out of my house, or
limiting someone else's access to our family outings. In a
heartbeat, if a visitor (adult or child) doesn't care what I think
about what's good or safe for my kids, they're not nearly as likely
to be invited back.
For me to have given an example of looking a person right in the eye
in a particular situation doesn't mean in EVERY situation you use
that aggressive tool, because it IS aggression, in primates.
-=-After playing outside for an hour, they always migrate towards the
road or parking lot, and I end up picking them up and placing them
back in our yard, only to repeat with the other one (twins.) -=-
Be out there with them.
-=-After half a dozen times I simply take them indoors because they
are focused only on that forbidden place,...-=-
Take them somewhere where they can run around more. Don't limit them
to wherever the dangerous place is they're playing.
-=-I also felt bad last night when we went to the zoo for a halloween
night. It's an hour away, and the babies don't do well with long
drives.-=-
Mornings seemed better for my kids, for long rides. An hour's too
far to go for Halloween activities. Wait for Halloween, take them
around the neighborhood, and come home. No messy car rides required.
-=-They also do this the few times we've been to my parents' home 3
hours away.-=-
Get your parents to come to you. For the price of gasoline for six
hours of driving, you could get them a motel room if you don't have
room at your place. Go out to parks, fast-food, pizza places with
play areas. Find situations in which your kids will be smiley and
happy and your parents can see them in joyful action, not a quiet
visit-grandparents after a three hour car ride.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm wondering if you can find a mother's helper to go with you
sometimes.
(like the zoo) Onlies work well or pre-teens who like little kids. You
could maybe pay them something but some might like to come just to go
to the
zoo and help you. -=-
That's a good idea.
We used to easily find older kids or young adults to go to the zoo
with us. They didn't have an excuse if they didn't have kids, they
felt. (My own kids kept going to the zoo and will take their other
late-teens/early adult friends with them sometimes, but some more
self-conscious people might see the zoo as a kid-place.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sometimes.
(like the zoo) Onlies work well or pre-teens who like little kids. You
could maybe pay them something but some might like to come just to go
to the
zoo and help you. -=-
That's a good idea.
We used to easily find older kids or young adults to go to the zoo
with us. They didn't have an excuse if they didn't have kids, they
felt. (My own kids kept going to the zoo and will take their other
late-teens/early adult friends with them sometimes, but some more
self-conscious people might see the zoo as a kid-place.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
prism7513
>For me, it was my own assumptions when I saw "give choices," I thought
> Okay. Where is this advice to lift all the barriers? I need to go
> and put pointers to warnings everywhere. Please, seriously, where
> are the ideas coming from that are causing this chaos?
>
"no limit." Which is why I started asking questions because I saw
limits and was curious how to make limits without being authoritarian.
I know it can be done as seen is this and other forums, but in
practice I'm still working out the kinks.
It's kind of like when people describe APing and say, "I don't do cry
it out..." but don't add what they DO do (maybe)- nursing every few
hours throughout the night, co-sleep, nurse until the child is no
longer interested. You find those things out as you talk to other
parents who do them.
I think for me I LIKED structure as a child, at least I grew to like
it. I still am more comfortable being told how to do something right,
even if I don't like it, because then I can't go wrong. So for me,
when rigid structures are removed, I have a hard time imagining the
structures still in place, and aren't sure where they are or how they
work.
Does that make sense?
prism7513
So I
isn't alone. Most of the time, he is trying to do something all by
himself (after closing the van passenger doors, which he insists on
doing now, he told me next time he wants to open and close the back
hatch, too...something he can't reach and needs my help for, but if he
could, he would do it without.) I'll watch him playing, and a lego
isn't connecting the way it should, and he'll try, and try. I'll offer
to help, he'll refuse, and it will end up in tears. He just want SO
bad not to need help, and I just want him to not be sad.
It's a want of MINE, not his, and I think I need to let him feel his
frustration of not getting the legos together, or reaching a
lightswitch, or whatever. I offer solutions whenever I can (stools for
lights and counters, etc.) but some of it is just skill or size that
he'll grow into.
Deb
> guess I am saying try to focus on the positives.I think that's probably the best I can do, and I'm glad my family
>
isn't alone. Most of the time, he is trying to do something all by
himself (after closing the van passenger doors, which he insists on
doing now, he told me next time he wants to open and close the back
hatch, too...something he can't reach and needs my help for, but if he
could, he would do it without.) I'll watch him playing, and a lego
isn't connecting the way it should, and he'll try, and try. I'll offer
to help, he'll refuse, and it will end up in tears. He just want SO
bad not to need help, and I just want him to not be sad.
It's a want of MINE, not his, and I think I need to let him feel his
frustration of not getting the legos together, or reaching a
lightswitch, or whatever. I offer solutions whenever I can (stools for
lights and counters, etc.) but some of it is just skill or size that
he'll grow into.
Deb
Jenny C
Like he wants a lego
the mean time, we went to several stores and checked various sets and
how much they were. So, by the time we had the money, we knew exactly
which set and how much and where to get it! We also checked craigslist
and asked around people we knew, and went to a few thrift stores, to see
if we could find them cheaper or free.
Doing all that went a loooong way in helping Margaux know that we
weren't going to drop the ball and that we were really serious about
buying her legos and that we wouldn't forget! It was hard to be
patient, but she did it and she got some legos and she's happy!
> set... dont have the money now so we will go buy it next week when myThis is an exact same scenario that we went through at our house. In
> husband gets paid.
the mean time, we went to several stores and checked various sets and
how much they were. So, by the time we had the money, we knew exactly
which set and how much and where to get it! We also checked craigslist
and asked around people we knew, and went to a few thrift stores, to see
if we could find them cheaper or free.
Doing all that went a loooong way in helping Margaux know that we
weren't going to drop the ball and that we were really serious about
buying her legos and that we wouldn't forget! It was hard to be
patient, but she did it and she got some legos and she's happy!
prism7513
--
asks to get his cereal, and wants to dress himself, and do most
everything himself. That's why I feel bad for him when he cries,
because I know what he wants, but he doesn't want my help, he wants
the ability to do it solo.
but is bordered by a school parking lot and of course the driveway to
the road.
I did have a Mother's Helper for awhile, but she moved away. It was
nice because she was out of high school but not working or going to
college, and was lonely up here away from home. She filled a need for
us, and we for her. I keep trying to find someone else that wouldn't
feel too stretched to help out and that could come over enough for the
kids to feel comfortable with.
I guess what I was trying to say about the zoo and Grandma's house is
that the older kids really WANT to go to these places, and ask us
often to go. We haven't gone as much because of the babies, but maybe
I need to see other ways of getting the older kids to go without me.
My desire to be with them may be less than their desire to be at the
zoo or Grandma's, and I'm sure Grandma wouldn't mind taking them
without me...thank you for that insight.
I'll also try to remember to work more on me, not DH. One thing I
always love him for - he's never tried to change me...thanks for the
thought jolt.
Deb
>No, he was the one who asked me to let him close the van doors, and he
> I hope you haven't told him he's "in control," because that would be
> a sure way to piss him off when his controls don't work, and if he
> was told "you're in control," and he figures out he's clearly not
> controlling everyone and everything around him, he might think less
> of you and your perceptions.
>
asks to get his cereal, and wants to dress himself, and do most
everything himself. That's why I feel bad for him when he cries,
because I know what he wants, but he doesn't want my help, he wants
the ability to do it solo.
>Unfortunately, it's our back yard. It's rather large, with no fence,
> Take them somewhere where they can run around more. Don't limit them
> to wherever the dangerous place is they're playing.
>
but is bordered by a school parking lot and of course the driveway to
the road.
I did have a Mother's Helper for awhile, but she moved away. It was
nice because she was out of high school but not working or going to
college, and was lonely up here away from home. She filled a need for
us, and we for her. I keep trying to find someone else that wouldn't
feel too stretched to help out and that could come over enough for the
kids to feel comfortable with.
I guess what I was trying to say about the zoo and Grandma's house is
that the older kids really WANT to go to these places, and ask us
often to go. We haven't gone as much because of the babies, but maybe
I need to see other ways of getting the older kids to go without me.
My desire to be with them may be less than their desire to be at the
zoo or Grandma's, and I'm sure Grandma wouldn't mind taking them
without me...thank you for that insight.
I'll also try to remember to work more on me, not DH. One thing I
always love him for - he's never tried to change me...thanks for the
thought jolt.
Deb
k
It's a want of MINE, not his, and I think I need to let him feel his
frustration of not getting the legos together, or reaching a
lightswitch, or whatever. I offer solutions whenever I can (stools for
lights and counters, etc.) but some of it is just skill or size that
he'll grow into.
When Karl was getting into talking, he got really irate at not being able to
express himself exactly the way he wanted to. Result: after 6 months of
yelling and screaming about "mess ups" on the way to being able to, he got
really really good at it. He was the same about pottying. Absolutely
didn't want any help and of course it's more complicated than he's able to
handle alone. Result: he's finally able to more to his satisfaction.
Playing games on the computer, terribly mad about his level of ability as
opposed to what he wants to be able to do. Result: real good at it now.
I remember when Karl was trying to figure out legos. No help, thanks
anyway. Ok just last week we bought him a bunch more legos and some
characters that he asked for.
One thing about it is.. the kid really wants to excell and have it all be to
his own credit. Understandable. I was a kid who didn't and still doesn't
care about credit. I liked doing stuff by myself and I think I got to
because I didn't ask for help or get frustrated easily (or the toy would be
taken from me). Everybody's different.
I work on keeping him filled up in other ways. Suggesting breaks when I
think he's willing to hear it or just saying I'm going outside, wanna come?
or I wanna play frisbee, how bout you? Going out to pet the cats, want to
come? (I still get a lot of no's on breaks but he sometimes takes a much
needed one.) Plenty on offer to eat (google monkey platters on
sandradodd.com if you haven't already).
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
frustration of not getting the legos together, or reaching a
lightswitch, or whatever. I offer solutions whenever I can (stools for
lights and counters, etc.) but some of it is just skill or size that
he'll grow into.
When Karl was getting into talking, he got really irate at not being able to
express himself exactly the way he wanted to. Result: after 6 months of
yelling and screaming about "mess ups" on the way to being able to, he got
really really good at it. He was the same about pottying. Absolutely
didn't want any help and of course it's more complicated than he's able to
handle alone. Result: he's finally able to more to his satisfaction.
Playing games on the computer, terribly mad about his level of ability as
opposed to what he wants to be able to do. Result: real good at it now.
I remember when Karl was trying to figure out legos. No help, thanks
anyway. Ok just last week we bought him a bunch more legos and some
characters that he asked for.
One thing about it is.. the kid really wants to excell and have it all be to
his own credit. Understandable. I was a kid who didn't and still doesn't
care about credit. I liked doing stuff by myself and I think I got to
because I didn't ask for help or get frustrated easily (or the toy would be
taken from me). Everybody's different.
I work on keeping him filled up in other ways. Suggesting breaks when I
think he's willing to hear it or just saying I'm going outside, wanna come?
or I wanna play frisbee, how bout you? Going out to pet the cats, want to
come? (I still get a lot of no's on breaks but he sometimes takes a much
needed one.) Plenty on offer to eat (google monkey platters on
sandradodd.com if you haven't already).
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
---I didn't ask for help or get frustrated easily (or the toy would be taken
from me).----
Forgot to mention... that's not how I parent though. I don't take
frustrating toys away from Karl. No way.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
from me).----
Forgot to mention... that's not how I parent though. I don't take
frustrating toys away from Karl. No way.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I think for me I LIKED structure as a child, at least I grew to like
it. I still am more comfortable being told how to do something right,
even if I don't like it, because then I can't go wrong. So for me,
when rigid structures are removed, I have a hard time imagining the
structures still in place, and aren't sure where they are or how they
work.
-=-Does that make sense?-=-
No, it doesn't make sense, but don't worry... if you write something
here that doesn't make sense, someone will probably comment (if
you're lucky).
If it does make sense, this isn't the place to get people saying
"Yes. Good. Makes sense." So don't append "Does that make sense?"
to these posts, please. It's not a personal conversation with you,
it's discussion on a VERY large list.
-=-I think for me I LIKED structure as a child, at least I grew to
like it.-=-
My mom had a younger brother who grew to like prison. They let him
out and he robbed a convenience store slowly and ineptly so he could
go back in. Poor guy.
-=- I still am more comfortable being told how to do something right,
even if I don't like it, because then I can't go wrong.-=-
Outside of the definition of what was "right," how could you have
gone "wrong"?
I hope that statement above doesn't mean you want us to spoonfeed you
how to "do unschooling right," because that's not possible to do.
You will need to internalize it to the point that it's a part of you.
-=-So for me, when rigid structures are removed, I have a hard time
imagining the structures still in place, and aren't sure where they
are or how they work.-=-
???
Unschooling isn't a structure. When you remove a structure, there
won't BE another structure unless you create one, and principles are
better than "structures."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
it. I still am more comfortable being told how to do something right,
even if I don't like it, because then I can't go wrong. So for me,
when rigid structures are removed, I have a hard time imagining the
structures still in place, and aren't sure where they are or how they
work.
-=-Does that make sense?-=-
No, it doesn't make sense, but don't worry... if you write something
here that doesn't make sense, someone will probably comment (if
you're lucky).
If it does make sense, this isn't the place to get people saying
"Yes. Good. Makes sense." So don't append "Does that make sense?"
to these posts, please. It's not a personal conversation with you,
it's discussion on a VERY large list.
-=-I think for me I LIKED structure as a child, at least I grew to
like it.-=-
My mom had a younger brother who grew to like prison. They let him
out and he robbed a convenience store slowly and ineptly so he could
go back in. Poor guy.
-=- I still am more comfortable being told how to do something right,
even if I don't like it, because then I can't go wrong.-=-
Outside of the definition of what was "right," how could you have
gone "wrong"?
I hope that statement above doesn't mean you want us to spoonfeed you
how to "do unschooling right," because that's not possible to do.
You will need to internalize it to the point that it's a part of you.
-=-So for me, when rigid structures are removed, I have a hard time
imagining the structures still in place, and aren't sure where they
are or how they work.-=-
???
Unschooling isn't a structure. When you remove a structure, there
won't BE another structure unless you create one, and principles are
better than "structures."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
A couple of things that can help until you are able to internalize
unschooling principles are reading as much as you can and gathering as many
practical (how to) ideas for implementing the principles you are reading
about. Read. Try an idea out to implement some or all of the principles.
Then read some more, implement more how-to's (like having monkey platters on
hand for everyone to eat from; and if you read about those you'll discover
than some larger families skip platters and keep a whole buffet going
throughout the day for all those people to pick from), read some more about
the principles.
All this activity will fine tune your understanding of how unschooling works
in your family. Doing will get you further than thinking but both are
needed to make unschooling happen for you.
It's much harder for someone to tailor make the unschooling experience for
others. It's not enough information to realistically build unschooling from
scratch into a new family. It's hard since every family is different and
the way they live out their lives and the things they believe (other than
unschooling principles) are going to interact in different ways.
Picking that apart is hard to do for one's *own* self. Picking it apart for
someone else isn't very doable and it's more likely than anything else to
make you feel that unschooling won't work for *you* when in fact it would if
you could incorporate it yourself, and then you would know it works... no
question about it, because you will have experienced it.
~Katherine
unschooling principles are reading as much as you can and gathering as many
practical (how to) ideas for implementing the principles you are reading
about. Read. Try an idea out to implement some or all of the principles.
Then read some more, implement more how-to's (like having monkey platters on
hand for everyone to eat from; and if you read about those you'll discover
than some larger families skip platters and keep a whole buffet going
throughout the day for all those people to pick from), read some more about
the principles.
All this activity will fine tune your understanding of how unschooling works
in your family. Doing will get you further than thinking but both are
needed to make unschooling happen for you.
It's much harder for someone to tailor make the unschooling experience for
others. It's not enough information to realistically build unschooling from
scratch into a new family. It's hard since every family is different and
the way they live out their lives and the things they believe (other than
unschooling principles) are going to interact in different ways.
Picking that apart is hard to do for one's *own* self. Picking it apart for
someone else isn't very doable and it's more likely than anything else to
make you feel that unschooling won't work for *you* when in fact it would if
you could incorporate it yourself, and then you would know it works... no
question about it, because you will have experienced it.
~Katherine
On 10/20/08, prism7513 <penley75@...> wrote:
> > Okay. Where is this advice to lift all the barriers? I need to go
> > and put pointers to warnings everywhere. Please, seriously, where
> > are the ideas coming from that are causing this chaos?
> >
>
> For me, it was my own assumptions when I saw "give choices," I thought
> "no limit." Which is why I started asking questions because I saw
> limits and was curious how to make limits without being authoritarian.
> I know it can be done as seen is this and other forums, but in
> practice I'm still working out the kinks.
>
> It's kind of like when people describe APing and say, "I don't do cry
> it out..." but don't add what they DO do (maybe)- nursing every few
> hours throughout the night, co-sleep, nurse until the child is no
> longer interested. You find those things out as you talk to other
> parents who do them.
>
> I think for me I LIKED structure as a child, at least I grew to like
> it. I still am more comfortable being told how to do something right,
> even if I don't like it, because then I can't go wrong. So for me,
> when rigid structures are removed, I have a hard time imagining the
> structures still in place, and aren't sure where they are or how they
> work.
>
> Does that make sense?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
prism7513
> Picking that apart is hard to do for one's *own* self. Picking itapart for
> someone else isn't very doable and it's more likely than anythingelse to
> make you feel that unschooling won't work for *you* when in fact itwould if
> you could incorporate it yourself, and then you would know itworks... no
> question about it, because you will have experienced it.That was actually very helpful, Katherine! I keep thinking, "But that
>
> ~Katherine
still doesn't answer my question!" No one really can, because they
aren't my family...very good point. Thanks!
Deb
prism7513
> The babies aren't the problem. The problem is kids who want seeminglyI didn't mean to make it sound like I think the babies are the
> incompatible things. Focus on how to balance two different needs (you
> can ask what others have done :-) rather than how uncooperative the
> babies are.
>
problem. I was trying to state what you stated about two different
needs that don't necessarily work well together.
But I did realize while raking the leaves this afternoon many
different things, one of which is that I'm still asking questions that
don't lend well to answers because I'm essentially asking, "How do I
cut off my hand without severing it from my body?" I CAN'T be a
mindful parent if I'm purposely putting my kids in situations where
they will most likely be unhappy, for whatever reason. Even if it's a
"good" reason (*I* want to be able to enjoy the zoo with my whole
family), it doesn't matter.
Same with my son in the toy aisle. He didn't *have* to be with me that
day. *I* chose that. Not him. The question isn't how to keep him calm
*after* being there, it's *why* was I there with him in the first
place if I knew he might react that way?
The whole idea of focusing on the positive instead of negative is a
huge thing for me, and the mind shift is happening, slowly...bit by bit.
Thank you :)
Deb
prism7513
>The first time I read this, I thought "Be *physically* present with
> Be out there with them.
>
them." Which at this age is a given, pretty much.
But then as I thought more, I realized you probably meant, "Be
involved with them, so they don't feel the need to wander off."
At least, that's what I *do* need to "be." :)
And for what it's worth, I actually had twice as much typed up for my
original post on this subject, but cut out quite a lot *because* I was
trying to be meaningful. Still workin' on that one...
Deb
Sandra Dodd
This was part of a post I sent back because the poster had only just
joined the list.
Please, new members, read a while (on this list or any list) to get a
feel for the list.
This doesn't seem to me to be aimed toward attentive parenting:
-=-In addition, just another perspective, perhaps your son just has a
*need* to cry (at those moments), just to cry and cry loudly and let
whatever he is feeling out. Perhaps you could try just being there,
hugging him if he wants, listening when he speaks, without talking,
without offering solutions, without asking questions, but just
validating his feelings by being a supportive presence to him.
Maybe *his* method of 'calming down' is crying loudly--not taking
deep breaths, or whatever other strategy you or someone else thinks
*should* work. Whatever he is doing (crying loudly) is working for
*him* in that moment--maybe just try and be *with* him at those
times. If he looks at you,fine, if he doesn't, that's ok. If he
wants to run around screaming that's ok too. If he runs up the
stairs to his room and wants to be alone that's ok too. Ykwim?-=-
Not all feelings are equally valid, and sometimes the validity of a
child's feelings involve the mom understanding how her own behavior
might be the cause of the frustration.
-=- If he looks at you,fine, if he doesn't, that's ok. -=-
Certainly.
-=- If he wants to run around screaming that's ok too.-=-
Not if it's 11:00 at night and you live in an apartment building, or
if other people are asleep.
-=- If he runs up the stairs to his room and wants to be alone that's
ok too. Ykwim?--=-
I know what you mean, but it doesn't seem good advice to help someone
move toward better unschooling and mindful parenting.
-=-Maybe *his* method of 'calming down' is crying loudly--not taking
deep breaths, or whatever other strategy you or someone else thinks
*should* work. -=-
Crying to the point of exhaustion can be helpful. One gets too tired
to cry, and the adrenaline has been spent, and I've read that there's
some thought that once tears of frustration build up, it can be
physically cleansing for them to come out. I don't know the details
of that.
I do know that slow, deep breaths will slow heart rate, which will
all by itself, immediately, be calming. Less adrenaline will pump.
More oxygen will go into the blood and cells. Adrenaline can abate
without the exhaustion that comes from crying until one's throat is
sore.
That's not "what someone else thinks *should* work." Please try not
to dismiss experience in that way.
-=-Whatever he is doing (crying loudly) is working for *him* in that
moment--=-
This is not necessarily true, nor safe, nor wise. Infants who cry
want to be picked up, maybe nursed, maybe rocked. That crying loudly
is not "working for him in that moment" in the case of a baby, and
we're talking toddlers. I have a sixteen year old daughter. If
she's crying loudly, something is NOT working for her in that moment.
Sandra
joined the list.
Please, new members, read a while (on this list or any list) to get a
feel for the list.
This doesn't seem to me to be aimed toward attentive parenting:
-=-In addition, just another perspective, perhaps your son just has a
*need* to cry (at those moments), just to cry and cry loudly and let
whatever he is feeling out. Perhaps you could try just being there,
hugging him if he wants, listening when he speaks, without talking,
without offering solutions, without asking questions, but just
validating his feelings by being a supportive presence to him.
Maybe *his* method of 'calming down' is crying loudly--not taking
deep breaths, or whatever other strategy you or someone else thinks
*should* work. Whatever he is doing (crying loudly) is working for
*him* in that moment--maybe just try and be *with* him at those
times. If he looks at you,fine, if he doesn't, that's ok. If he
wants to run around screaming that's ok too. If he runs up the
stairs to his room and wants to be alone that's ok too. Ykwim?-=-
Not all feelings are equally valid, and sometimes the validity of a
child's feelings involve the mom understanding how her own behavior
might be the cause of the frustration.
-=- If he looks at you,fine, if he doesn't, that's ok. -=-
Certainly.
-=- If he wants to run around screaming that's ok too.-=-
Not if it's 11:00 at night and you live in an apartment building, or
if other people are asleep.
-=- If he runs up the stairs to his room and wants to be alone that's
ok too. Ykwim?--=-
I know what you mean, but it doesn't seem good advice to help someone
move toward better unschooling and mindful parenting.
-=-Maybe *his* method of 'calming down' is crying loudly--not taking
deep breaths, or whatever other strategy you or someone else thinks
*should* work. -=-
Crying to the point of exhaustion can be helpful. One gets too tired
to cry, and the adrenaline has been spent, and I've read that there's
some thought that once tears of frustration build up, it can be
physically cleansing for them to come out. I don't know the details
of that.
I do know that slow, deep breaths will slow heart rate, which will
all by itself, immediately, be calming. Less adrenaline will pump.
More oxygen will go into the blood and cells. Adrenaline can abate
without the exhaustion that comes from crying until one's throat is
sore.
That's not "what someone else thinks *should* work." Please try not
to dismiss experience in that way.
-=-Whatever he is doing (crying loudly) is working for *him* in that
moment--=-
This is not necessarily true, nor safe, nor wise. Infants who cry
want to be picked up, maybe nursed, maybe rocked. That crying loudly
is not "working for him in that moment" in the case of a baby, and
we're talking toddlers. I have a sixteen year old daughter. If
she's crying loudly, something is NOT working for her in that moment.
Sandra
Laureen
Heya!
On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 12:47 PM, k <katherand@...> wrote:
> It's much harder for someone to tailor make the unschooling experience for
> others. It's not enough information to realistically build unschooling
> from
> scratch into a new family. It's hard since every family is different and
> the way they live out their lives and the things they believe (other than
> unschooling principles) are going to interact in different ways.
>
> Picking that apart is hard to do for one's *own* self. Picking it apart
> for
> someone else isn't very doable and it's more likely than anything else to
> make you feel that unschooling won't work for *you* when in fact it would
> if
> you could incorporate it yourself, and then you would know it works... no
> question about it, because you will have experienced it.
OK, this is gonna sound totally weird. But it's *our* path...
We did elimination communication, which is the idea that a baby is perfectly
capable, from birth, of telling you when they have to potty. I've done it
with all three of my children. It sounds weird to people who haven't done
it, but it's pretty much how most of the world deals with baby eliminations.
The baby signals, you hold them over a receptacle, they do their thing, and
everyone's happy. No wetness on baby, no mess for parent, no potty
"training" ever... it's this hugely respectful, symbiotic thing.
At this stage, never having diapered, and always having EC'd, I cannot even
begin to describe the process of "how does it work?" because it just does.
It's part of the rhythm of our days. I can give some guidelines, some
frameworks, some generalities, but I can't tell you how it would work with
your baby, because there's no way I can know what the symbiosis is between
you and each baby you have (and it's been different with all three of mine).
I can explain to you that it did work, with all three, I can give you
examples of what I saw and what I did, and what they did, but just because
Rowan blew raspberries when he had to go, and Aurora grunts, and Kestrel
kicked his heels against me, doesn't mean that your kid won't do something
completely different, but equally valid. I can't know what, and I can't tell
you what. You have to figure that out yourself.
Which is probably why unschooling seems like such a natural thing. I really
believe that parents and children are hard-wired to do amazing things
together, provided we can shut out the noise of the culture and just tune in
to each other's needs.
--
~~L!
~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~
Writing here:
http://www.theexcellentadventure.com/
Evolving here:
http://www.consciouswoman.org/
~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I keep thinking, "But that
still doesn't answer my question!" No one really can, because they
aren't my family...-=-
I don't think that was Katherine's point.
The answer you think you need is too narrow and small. What we're
trying to give you is the bigger picture, the ideas, the under-
pinnings. We're trying to show you why and how, not "what."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
still doesn't answer my question!" No one really can, because they
aren't my family...-=-
I don't think that was Katherine's point.
The answer you think you need is too narrow and small. What we're
trying to give you is the bigger picture, the ideas, the under-
pinnings. We're trying to show you why and how, not "what."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I CAN'T be a
mindful parent if I'm purposely putting my kids in situations where
they will most likely be unhappy, for whatever reason.-=-
When you realize you're creating unhappy situations, then you're
becoming a mindful parent
http://sandradodd.com/mindfulparenting
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mindful parent if I'm purposely putting my kids in situations where
they will most likely be unhappy, for whatever reason.-=-
When you realize you're creating unhappy situations, then you're
becoming a mindful parent
http://sandradodd.com/mindfulparenting
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-> Be out there with them.
them." Which at this age is a given, pretty much.
-=-But then as I thought more, I realized you probably meant, "Be
involved with them, so they don't feel the need to wander off."-=-
The description you gave earlier of them going to the road half a
dozen times didn't seem to include a physically present adult.
Put up a fence. It doesn't have to be an expensive fence. It could
be a cheapo barrier of plastic and stakes.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>-=-The first time I read this, I thought "Be *physically* present with
them." Which at this age is a given, pretty much.
-=-But then as I thought more, I realized you probably meant, "Be
involved with them, so they don't feel the need to wander off."-=-
The description you gave earlier of them going to the road half a
dozen times didn't seem to include a physically present adult.
Put up a fence. It doesn't have to be an expensive fence. It could
be a cheapo barrier of plastic and stakes.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=I really
believe that parents and children are hard-wired to do amazing things
together, provided we can shut out the noise of the culture and just
tune in
to each other's needs.-=-
Beautiful.
My college boyfriend grew up in India and said they were never in
diapers, he or his four siblings. Two were born in New Jersey, and
their mom didn't do the diaper thing here either, although he said
it was easier in India where she made a little potty with her feet,
over the floor toilet/hole, for them to go in. It wouldn't work
here. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
believe that parents and children are hard-wired to do amazing things
together, provided we can shut out the noise of the culture and just
tune in
to each other's needs.-=-
Beautiful.
My college boyfriend grew up in India and said they were never in
diapers, he or his four siblings. Two were born in New Jersey, and
their mom didn't do the diaper thing here either, although he said
it was easier in India where she made a little potty with her feet,
over the floor toilet/hole, for them to go in. It wouldn't work
here. <g>
Sandra
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Jenny C
>That was my initial reaction too! It doesn't even have to be a fence
> Put up a fence. It doesn't have to be an expensive fence. It could
> be a cheapo barrier of plastic and stakes.
>
either, any sort of barrier would work combined with something
enormously enticing in the other direction. When Margaux was a baby and
I had a garden, she wouldn't ever stay on her large blanket with toys,
she wanted to eat dirt, so instead of fighting the issue, I put cheerios
all over her blanket. After that, she never strayed off the blanket to
eat dirt! She happily foraged on her blanket.
She was probably younger than the babies being discussed, but the same
idea can work. The babes clearly want to get around, give them a place
to go, a baby maze of sorts that keeps them occupied and happy.