Schooling: The Hidden Agenda - Daniel Quinn
hollywoodapi
Dear All,
I have been organizing by office for days and came across a handout. I
am not sure where it came from. Sounds like an introduction that was
made by Daniel Quinn, author of Ishmael, at an unschooling conference.
It is a fascinating piece and I thought I would share a link to the
article with you:
http://www.ishmael.org/Education/Writings/unschooling.shtml
Kind regards,
Anna
I have been organizing by office for days and came across a handout. I
am not sure where it came from. Sounds like an introduction that was
made by Daniel Quinn, author of Ishmael, at an unschooling conference.
It is a fascinating piece and I thought I would share a link to the
article with you:
http://www.ishmael.org/Education/Writings/unschooling.shtml
Kind regards,
Anna
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], "hollywoodapi" <anna@...> wrote:
I recall when my always schooled daughter was about eight - which
would be 1993 - having a conversation with the Principal of her then
school in which I commented on the absence from the classroom of
accelerated learning techniques I knew had been around since the
1970s. "It's too impractical" was more or less the sum total of his
explanation for that. Maybe that incident sowed the seeds of more than
just idle curiosity, I don't know.
I was very involved with all four of my daughter's schools (two in the
UK, two in Australia), but I was seldom in the classroom getting a
view of the teaching, and my daughter was always amongst the
'frontrunners' in every class she was in, so there was no cause for
concern.
That all changed when her ten years younger brother started school.
Especially in his second year - 2002 - when he was becoming
progressively unhappier. By then, I was in the school every day, at
the very least for morning assembly, often helping out in some way in
the classroom. And by this time, the internet had become a part of my
daily life. A fantastic learning resource. Taken advantage of daily by
me and by my son. So, whenever I got into my son's classroom, I
couldn't help but notice the amount of fluff and padding in a typical
school day, more consciously than I'd never noticed it before. I
couldn't help but notice that it was taking an hour to teach my son
what he could learn for himself in two minutes.
After my son had asked to be taken out of school, my wife and I were
pondering on that for quite a while. Then one day I was once again in
his classroom, helping out with some mathematics project or other. And
I'm sitting there and suddenly I realise, "Gosh, this is like
occupational therapy. It's basket weaving." ("Gosh" wasn't the actual
word that sprang to mind). That was the end of my efforts to help my
son adapt to school culture. It wasn't until about seven weeks later
that it happened for real, but he was out of there from that moment.
I prefer my son to learn at the speed of thought not wait around for
somebody to teach him at the speed of watching paint dry. That's how
it was, and is, and will always be.
Bob
P.S. Perhaps I should have added "Amen" to that. :-)
>There's a lot in that that makes sense.
> Dear All,
>
> I have been organizing by office for days and came across a handout. I
> am not sure where it came from. Sounds like an introduction that was
> made by Daniel Quinn, author of Ishmael, at an unschooling conference.
>
> It is a fascinating piece and I thought I would share a link to the
> article with you:
>
> http://www.ishmael.org/Education/Writings/unschooling.shtml
>
> Kind regards,
> Anna
>
I recall when my always schooled daughter was about eight - which
would be 1993 - having a conversation with the Principal of her then
school in which I commented on the absence from the classroom of
accelerated learning techniques I knew had been around since the
1970s. "It's too impractical" was more or less the sum total of his
explanation for that. Maybe that incident sowed the seeds of more than
just idle curiosity, I don't know.
I was very involved with all four of my daughter's schools (two in the
UK, two in Australia), but I was seldom in the classroom getting a
view of the teaching, and my daughter was always amongst the
'frontrunners' in every class she was in, so there was no cause for
concern.
That all changed when her ten years younger brother started school.
Especially in his second year - 2002 - when he was becoming
progressively unhappier. By then, I was in the school every day, at
the very least for morning assembly, often helping out in some way in
the classroom. And by this time, the internet had become a part of my
daily life. A fantastic learning resource. Taken advantage of daily by
me and by my son. So, whenever I got into my son's classroom, I
couldn't help but notice the amount of fluff and padding in a typical
school day, more consciously than I'd never noticed it before. I
couldn't help but notice that it was taking an hour to teach my son
what he could learn for himself in two minutes.
After my son had asked to be taken out of school, my wife and I were
pondering on that for quite a while. Then one day I was once again in
his classroom, helping out with some mathematics project or other. And
I'm sitting there and suddenly I realise, "Gosh, this is like
occupational therapy. It's basket weaving." ("Gosh" wasn't the actual
word that sprang to mind). That was the end of my efforts to help my
son adapt to school culture. It wasn't until about seven weeks later
that it happened for real, but he was out of there from that moment.
I prefer my son to learn at the speed of thought not wait around for
somebody to teach him at the speed of watching paint dry. That's how
it was, and is, and will always be.
Bob
P.S. Perhaps I should have added "Amen" to that. :-)
Sandra Dodd
-=-That's how
it was, and is, and will always be.
Bob
P.S. Perhaps I should have added "Amen" to that. :-)-=-
Hey... you didn't need to! It came to mind.
Then when I saw the P.S. I was thinking a four-part-harmony "World
without end, Amen, Amen."
Learning at the speed of thought is a great phrase.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
it was, and is, and will always be.
Bob
P.S. Perhaps I should have added "Amen" to that. :-)-=-
Hey... you didn't need to! It came to mind.
Then when I saw the P.S. I was thinking a four-part-harmony "World
without end, Amen, Amen."
Learning at the speed of thought is a great phrase.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nancy Wooton
On Oct 12, 2008, at 6:16 PM, Bob Collier wrote:
versions delete the little 'toon at the beginning that was in the
newspaper, where a girl and the boy who's in the rest of the comic are
carrying huge stacks of school books. The girl is saying "(Sigh) No
pain, no gain," and the boy is saying "No memorization, no
regurgitation, no matriculation."
http://members.comics.com/members/common/affiliateArchive.do?site=seattle&comic=frazz
Nancy
> Then one day I was once again inHere's a link to today's "Frazz" comic; unfortunately, all the web
> his classroom, helping out with some mathematics project or other. And
> I'm sitting there and suddenly I realise, "Gosh, this is like
> occupational therapy. It's basket weaving." ("Gosh" wasn't the actual
> word that sprang to mind). That was the end of my efforts to help my
> son adapt to school culture. It wasn't until about seven weeks later
> that it happened for real, but he was out of there from that moment.
>
> I prefer my son to learn at the speed of thought not wait around for
> somebody to teach him at the speed of watching paint dry. That's how
> it was, and is, and will always be.
versions delete the little 'toon at the beginning that was in the
newspaper, where a girl and the boy who's in the rest of the comic are
carrying huge stacks of school books. The girl is saying "(Sigh) No
pain, no gain," and the boy is saying "No memorization, no
regurgitation, no matriculation."
http://members.comics.com/members/common/affiliateArchive.do?site=seattle&comic=frazz
Nancy
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], Nancy Wooton <nancywooton@...>
wrote:
Teacher: If there are four birds sitting on a fence and a farmer
shoots one of them, how many birds are there left on the fence?
Student: None
Teacher: Wrong. The answer is three.
Student: No it isn't. The other three birds would have flown off when
they heard the gunshot.
:-)
Bob
wrote:
>http://members.comics.com/members/common/affiliateArchive.do?site=seattle&comic=frazz
>
> Here's a link to today's "Frazz" comic; unfortunately, all the web
> versions delete the little 'toon at the beginning that was in the
> newspaper, where a girl and the boy who's in the rest of the comic are
> carrying huge stacks of school books. The girl is saying "(Sigh) No
> pain, no gain," and the boy is saying "No memorization, no
> regurgitation, no matriculation."
>
>
>LOL. Thanks for that. Reminds me of this:
> Nancy
>
Teacher: If there are four birds sitting on a fence and a farmer
shoots one of them, how many birds are there left on the fence?
Student: None
Teacher: Wrong. The answer is three.
Student: No it isn't. The other three birds would have flown off when
they heard the gunshot.
:-)
Bob
prism7513
>That was very interesting, indeed!
> http://www.ishmael.org/Education/Writings/unschooling.shtml
>
I wondered about his point that when puberty hits, interest in
learning declines. Have those of you who have/had teens noticed this
trend, as well? I know teens definitely start taking an interest in
sex, of course, but hadn't thought of the correlation to WANTING to
learn (vs. trying to focus during a classroom lecture while
fantasizing about sex!)
Interestingly, my desire to learn INCREASED as a teen only because for
the first 8 years of my schooling career I was so focused on trying
not to become the object of ridicule each and every day that I didn't
care at all what was being taught. But high school (public vs. the
private I HAD BEEN attending) was a much more free environment for me,
with more people, different kinds of teachers, and more subjects that
opened up interesting discussions for me. Not that it was ideal
compared to unschooling, but compared to what I had HAD, it was
tremendous!
On the flip side, though, I was one of the few girls I knew who DID
think "mate, mate, mate!" all the time! LOL! And because I knew
waiting until you were married to have sex is a wise idea, I would
fantasize that I was married at the young ripe age of 13, 14, 15, etc.
I've always felt it was unfair to a degree for a person to hit the
peek of their sexual desire when the "ideal" age of starting a family
in our culture is years away. I envied the early societies where
people married young, though I didn't envy the hardships they endured.
But from a hormonal teen's point of view, at least they had one thing
going for them.
I will say that an analogy came to me as well. Before I was married I
constantly (unlike most women, according to studies, though more are
admitting to sharing my experience) thought about sex. But after I was
married and there was an outlet for that desire, I was more free to
think about other interests, or mundane things like work ;)
I think the same can be said about food, perhaps? When I limit myself
to a few sweets, they are all I can think about, but when I can have
as many as I want, I eventually say, "Well, I'm not really hungry
right now, no thank you." My desire for sweets isn't gone, it's just
satisfied enough that I don't OBSESS about it anymore.
Deb
Pamela Sorooshian
On Oct 14, 2008, at 1:05 PM, prism7513 wrote:
However, the ages of about 8 to 12 are sometimes known as the "fact-
gathering stage." The type of learning might be more like what most
schools (these days) teach - testable stuff. After that age, the teens
might be more interested in gaining understanding of the world - more
interested in human behavior, animal behavior, scientific thought,
philosophy, politics, religion, etc. Or they might be more interested
in pursuing specific interests like art or music.
So - in school - it could very easily appear that the teens are,
generally, less interested in learning. But I'd say the truth is that
they're less interested in learning most of what the schools are
trying to teach, while still passionately interested in learning.
-pam
> I wondered about his point that when puberty hits, interest inNot at all.
> learning declines. Have those of you who have/had teens noticed this
> trend, as well?
However, the ages of about 8 to 12 are sometimes known as the "fact-
gathering stage." The type of learning might be more like what most
schools (these days) teach - testable stuff. After that age, the teens
might be more interested in gaining understanding of the world - more
interested in human behavior, animal behavior, scientific thought,
philosophy, politics, religion, etc. Or they might be more interested
in pursuing specific interests like art or music.
So - in school - it could very easily appear that the teens are,
generally, less interested in learning. But I'd say the truth is that
they're less interested in learning most of what the schools are
trying to teach, while still passionately interested in learning.
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=-I wondered about his point that when puberty hits, interest in
learning declines. Have those of you who have/had teens noticed this
trend, as well?-=-
I didn't notice it at our house, because it was never "an interest in
learning" that caused them to learn in the first place. It was
living in a house where everyone was sharing information and ideas,
music and movies and trivia all the time. Still. I just left the
dinner table where Keith, Holly, Marty and Brett (Holly's boyfriend)
were talking up a storm about comic-book hero movies. Marty and
Brett both know quite a bit, and Brett used to work at a comic book
store. I had watched the special features on Ironman and so could
actually contribute a bit to the discussion. Holly and I told a
couple of stories about The Duchess, which we saw this afternoon. We
talked about the food, about my lunch with friends today, about
Christmas music this fall. It was FUN. It was stimulating. And
everyone there is sexually active.
I'm thinking about the relationships my kids have been in, and they
were all based on hobbies and shared interests, so being with their
boyfriends or girlfriends has involved doing and being and exploring
as much as being with the family has.
-=-And because I knew
waiting until you were married to have sex is a wise idea, I would
fantasize that I was married at the young ripe age of 13, 14, 15, etc.
I've always felt it was unfair to a degree for a person to hit the
peek of their sexual desire when the "ideal" age of starting a family
in our culture is years away. I envied the early societies where
people married young, though I didn't envy the hardships they endured.
But from a hormonal teen's point of view, at least they had one thing
going for them.-=-
Our culture is as screwed up about sex and marriage as it is about
other things, I'm pretty sure. I could be wrong.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
learning declines. Have those of you who have/had teens noticed this
trend, as well?-=-
I didn't notice it at our house, because it was never "an interest in
learning" that caused them to learn in the first place. It was
living in a house where everyone was sharing information and ideas,
music and movies and trivia all the time. Still. I just left the
dinner table where Keith, Holly, Marty and Brett (Holly's boyfriend)
were talking up a storm about comic-book hero movies. Marty and
Brett both know quite a bit, and Brett used to work at a comic book
store. I had watched the special features on Ironman and so could
actually contribute a bit to the discussion. Holly and I told a
couple of stories about The Duchess, which we saw this afternoon. We
talked about the food, about my lunch with friends today, about
Christmas music this fall. It was FUN. It was stimulating. And
everyone there is sexually active.
I'm thinking about the relationships my kids have been in, and they
were all based on hobbies and shared interests, so being with their
boyfriends or girlfriends has involved doing and being and exploring
as much as being with the family has.
-=-And because I knew
waiting until you were married to have sex is a wise idea, I would
fantasize that I was married at the young ripe age of 13, 14, 15, etc.
I've always felt it was unfair to a degree for a person to hit the
peek of their sexual desire when the "ideal" age of starting a family
in our culture is years away. I envied the early societies where
people married young, though I didn't envy the hardships they endured.
But from a hormonal teen's point of view, at least they had one thing
going for them.-=-
Our culture is as screwed up about sex and marriage as it is about
other things, I'm pretty sure. I could be wrong.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tmissinne
What an interesting article! Most of the information was not new to me, but Daniel Quinn
always has a different way of phrasing things.
I was especially interested in the traditional skills he was talking about -- knowing what's
edible, constructing shelter, etc. Right now I'm having a tremendous drive to learn these
things (ok, ok, I was raised in a very apocalyptic church, and the state of the world isn't
helping ;). Could anyone give me any advice on where to learn these things? I've found a few
books. Are there any good internet sources etc?
Thanks
Trisha
always has a different way of phrasing things.
I was especially interested in the traditional skills he was talking about -- knowing what's
edible, constructing shelter, etc. Right now I'm having a tremendous drive to learn these
things (ok, ok, I was raised in a very apocalyptic church, and the state of the world isn't
helping ;). Could anyone give me any advice on where to learn these things? I've found a few
books. Are there any good internet sources etc?
Thanks
Trisha
Sandra Dodd
-=-I was especially interested in the traditional skills he was
talking about -- knowing what's
edible, constructing shelter, etc. Right now I'm having a tremendous
drive to learn these
things (ok, ok, I was raised in a very apocalyptic church, and the
state of the world isn't
helping ;). Could anyone give me any advice on where to learn these
things? -=-
Girl Scout Handbooks from the early 20th century. Boy Scout manuals
of various sorts. Hippie publications from the late 60's. Whole
Earth Catalog.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
talking about -- knowing what's
edible, constructing shelter, etc. Right now I'm having a tremendous
drive to learn these
things (ok, ok, I was raised in a very apocalyptic church, and the
state of the world isn't
helping ;). Could anyone give me any advice on where to learn these
things? -=-
Girl Scout Handbooks from the early 20th century. Boy Scout manuals
of various sorts. Hippie publications from the late 60's. Whole
Earth Catalog.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
DJ250
Yes! Ancestral Knowledge has classes on this! www.ancestralknowledge.org. It's based in MD, near D.C.. If that's not near you, I wonder if you could contact them to see if they know of any programs near you.
~Melissa :)
~Melissa :)
----- Original Message -----
From: tmissinne
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 7:02 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Schooling: The Hidden Agenda - Daniel Quinn
What an interesting article! Most of the information was not new to me, but Daniel Quinn
always has a different way of phrasing things.
I was especially interested in the traditional skills he was talking about -- knowing what's
edible, constructing shelter, etc. Right now I'm having a tremendous drive to learn these
things (ok, ok, I was raised in a very apocalyptic church, and the state of the world isn't
helping ;). Could anyone give me any advice on where to learn these things? I've found a few
books. Are there any good internet sources etc?
Thanks
Trisha
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