Help figuring out kids' friendships
Sandra Dodd
I've been asked to request input on a problem for someone requesting
anonymity. The names are false but the story is real. (Kinda
Dragnet-like, for those old enough to remember "The story you're
about to hear is real...")
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------
I have a son who has been making friends with new kids, lately. One
of which, he's exchanged e-mails with. Susie and my son Sam have
things in common personality-wise and interest-wise and have decided
through their e-mail conversations, that they'd like to get together
and work on an art project together. They see each other once a week
at a local homeschool activity (physical) that's structured, but they
do have bits of time to talk during it.
After the activity this week, in the course of conversation about
when and where we could meet to work on the art project, Sam said
that he wasn't sure he liked Susie any more and sounded quite
disappointed. When I asked him about it, he said that Susie was
calling another one of his friends, Joey, participating in the group
activity, "Miss Joey" in a teasing way, and that Joey was *very*
upset by it. I suggested that if I were someone like Susie, who
wanted to be his friend, I would rather someone say that they didn't
like something I was doing, rather than just stop talking to me and
hanging out with me. We talked about what he could say and how he
could say it and the different options about where he could talk to
her (in private or in front of the group) and he took that all in and
seemed to be mulling over his options.
That evening, I was at a gathering of homeschool parents and was
talking about Sam and Susie's growing friendship and recounting how I
had talked to Sam about things - more in the vein of "this is a cool
thing I could talk over with my kid rather than taking the situation
out of his hands and handling it myself" than anything else. The mom
I was talking to has a child, Pat, in the class, too, who is friends
with Joey, and said that Susie had done the same thing at the
activity last week and that Pat and Joe had come to their moms
(relaxed homeschoolers) saying what had happened and the moms had
kind of said it was likely Susie goofing off and trying to be funny.
She also said that the two of them hadn't said anything about it
after the activity today, so that they might not have heard it or it
was not a big deal any more. That was *not* Sam's take on things:
Joey seemed quite upset to Sam.
There was a mom, Mary (NOT Susie's mom, but the mother of an
Asperger's labeled child), nearby who overheard what was going on and
spoke up, saying, "You know, Susie has Asperger's Syndrome. That's
just how she is, she's trying to joke around with the kids and thinks
she's being funny. If one of the kids says something to her, it's
just going to get worse. If you tell her mom, she'll HANDLE it." I
took from the way she said "handle it" that Susie was either going to
get a severe dressing down or physically punished. Mary is a gossip
and kind of twists things in the retelling to make conflict, so I'm
not too happy she overheard this and took it out of context, but the
real problem is how do I handle it, now?
I don't want to be the cause of Susie getting laid into, nor start
out a relationship with this new mom I don't know yet with stories of
her daughter's "misbehavior". On one hand, if that story hadn't come
up at that moment where it was overheard, we'd never have known about
Susie's label and this supposed conflict with what I'd talked over
with my son. If we'd just have met her in the park while her mom was
off somewhere, I wouldn't have stopped to say, "Okay, is this a non-
labeled kid who we can say something to or could this child possibly
have a developmental disorder who can't hear something simple like,
'Hey, that's not cool.'?" On the other hand, if it is true that it
will escalate her behavior (though I don't see how talking to her
after the activity in private could transfer to it being worse a week
later, with the description Mary gave - it seemed more of a "in the
moment"/nervousness kind of thing), I don't want to put *any* of the
kids in that situation. So, I'm hoping to get some input here. Thanks.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
If anyone has suggestions, just respond as if those are the real names.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
anonymity. The names are false but the story is real. (Kinda
Dragnet-like, for those old enough to remember "The story you're
about to hear is real...")
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------
I have a son who has been making friends with new kids, lately. One
of which, he's exchanged e-mails with. Susie and my son Sam have
things in common personality-wise and interest-wise and have decided
through their e-mail conversations, that they'd like to get together
and work on an art project together. They see each other once a week
at a local homeschool activity (physical) that's structured, but they
do have bits of time to talk during it.
After the activity this week, in the course of conversation about
when and where we could meet to work on the art project, Sam said
that he wasn't sure he liked Susie any more and sounded quite
disappointed. When I asked him about it, he said that Susie was
calling another one of his friends, Joey, participating in the group
activity, "Miss Joey" in a teasing way, and that Joey was *very*
upset by it. I suggested that if I were someone like Susie, who
wanted to be his friend, I would rather someone say that they didn't
like something I was doing, rather than just stop talking to me and
hanging out with me. We talked about what he could say and how he
could say it and the different options about where he could talk to
her (in private or in front of the group) and he took that all in and
seemed to be mulling over his options.
That evening, I was at a gathering of homeschool parents and was
talking about Sam and Susie's growing friendship and recounting how I
had talked to Sam about things - more in the vein of "this is a cool
thing I could talk over with my kid rather than taking the situation
out of his hands and handling it myself" than anything else. The mom
I was talking to has a child, Pat, in the class, too, who is friends
with Joey, and said that Susie had done the same thing at the
activity last week and that Pat and Joe had come to their moms
(relaxed homeschoolers) saying what had happened and the moms had
kind of said it was likely Susie goofing off and trying to be funny.
She also said that the two of them hadn't said anything about it
after the activity today, so that they might not have heard it or it
was not a big deal any more. That was *not* Sam's take on things:
Joey seemed quite upset to Sam.
There was a mom, Mary (NOT Susie's mom, but the mother of an
Asperger's labeled child), nearby who overheard what was going on and
spoke up, saying, "You know, Susie has Asperger's Syndrome. That's
just how she is, she's trying to joke around with the kids and thinks
she's being funny. If one of the kids says something to her, it's
just going to get worse. If you tell her mom, she'll HANDLE it." I
took from the way she said "handle it" that Susie was either going to
get a severe dressing down or physically punished. Mary is a gossip
and kind of twists things in the retelling to make conflict, so I'm
not too happy she overheard this and took it out of context, but the
real problem is how do I handle it, now?
I don't want to be the cause of Susie getting laid into, nor start
out a relationship with this new mom I don't know yet with stories of
her daughter's "misbehavior". On one hand, if that story hadn't come
up at that moment where it was overheard, we'd never have known about
Susie's label and this supposed conflict with what I'd talked over
with my son. If we'd just have met her in the park while her mom was
off somewhere, I wouldn't have stopped to say, "Okay, is this a non-
labeled kid who we can say something to or could this child possibly
have a developmental disorder who can't hear something simple like,
'Hey, that's not cool.'?" On the other hand, if it is true that it
will escalate her behavior (though I don't see how talking to her
after the activity in private could transfer to it being worse a week
later, with the description Mary gave - it seemed more of a "in the
moment"/nervousness kind of thing), I don't want to put *any* of the
kids in that situation. So, I'm hoping to get some input here. Thanks.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
If anyone has suggestions, just respond as if those are the real names.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
I have a rare moment right now where I'm all by myself at home, I can't
even remember the last time that happened! I should go do something
productive, yet.... here I am...
My first thought is that any kid wether aspergers or not, if they are
doing something irritating to others should be made aware of it. If
it's indeed true that this girl is aspergers, she might not get subtle
social cues and may not even be aware that it is hurting people.
The best way that I know how to handle the situation is to try to keep
the moms uninvolved except for coaching, and let the son politely say
very directly what he needs to say. It even occured to me that if they
are emailing, perhaps he could write it out and send it via email and
not have to do it in front of others or try to corner her privately.
A simple statement saying how it really bothers him when she says
hurtful things like...______... to his other friends because he likes
them and wants them to feel comfortable and happy, the same way he feels
that she should feel comfortable and happy, and that he would feel
equally upset if someone treated her badly or said hurtful things to
her.
I honestly think she would hear it better coming from a good friend than
another parent, even hers. Parents sometimes blow these kinds of
interactions out of proportion. I know I've been guilty of overreacting
to things potentially hurtful to my kids. I've actually gotten much
much better about this over the last couple of years. It sets up a good
example for your kids when you can stay calm and unscathed over their
emotional turmoil, and believe me, I know what it's like to have your
kid go through emotional turmoil!
even remember the last time that happened! I should go do something
productive, yet.... here I am...
My first thought is that any kid wether aspergers or not, if they are
doing something irritating to others should be made aware of it. If
it's indeed true that this girl is aspergers, she might not get subtle
social cues and may not even be aware that it is hurting people.
The best way that I know how to handle the situation is to try to keep
the moms uninvolved except for coaching, and let the son politely say
very directly what he needs to say. It even occured to me that if they
are emailing, perhaps he could write it out and send it via email and
not have to do it in front of others or try to corner her privately.
A simple statement saying how it really bothers him when she says
hurtful things like...______... to his other friends because he likes
them and wants them to feel comfortable and happy, the same way he feels
that she should feel comfortable and happy, and that he would feel
equally upset if someone treated her badly or said hurtful things to
her.
I honestly think she would hear it better coming from a good friend than
another parent, even hers. Parents sometimes blow these kinds of
interactions out of proportion. I know I've been guilty of overreacting
to things potentially hurtful to my kids. I've actually gotten much
much better about this over the last couple of years. It sets up a good
example for your kids when you can stay calm and unscathed over their
emotional turmoil, and believe me, I know what it's like to have your
kid go through emotional turmoil!
k
Maybe he might also mention that if she has questions he'd be glad to go
over anything he's said that doesn't sound clear.
(In case she has questions and nowhere to go with them.)
~Katherine
over anything he's said that doesn't sound clear.
(In case she has questions and nowhere to go with them.)
~Katherine
On 10/10/08, Jenny C <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
>
>
> I have a rare moment right now where I'm all by myself at home, I can't
> even remember the last time that happened! I should go do something
> productive, yet.... here I am...
>
> My first thought is that any kid wether aspergers or not, if they are
> doing something irritating to others should be made aware of it. If
> it's indeed true that this girl is aspergers, she might not get subtle
> social cues and may not even be aware that it is hurting people.
>
> The best way that I know how to handle the situation is to try to keep
> the moms uninvolved except for coaching, and let the son politely say
> very directly what he needs to say. It even occured to me that if they
> are emailing, perhaps he could write it out and send it via email and
> not have to do it in front of others or try to corner her privately.
>
> A simple statement saying how it really bothers him when she says
> hurtful things like...______... to his other friends because he likes
> them and wants them to feel comfortable and happy, the same way he feels
> that she should feel comfortable and happy, and that he would feel
> equally upset if someone treated her badly or said hurtful things to
> her.
>
> I honestly think she would hear it better coming from a good friend than
> another parent, even hers. Parents sometimes blow these kinds of
> interactions out of proportion. I know I've been guilty of overreacting
> to things potentially hurtful to my kids. I've actually gotten much
> much better about this over the last couple of years. It sets up a good
> example for your kids when you can stay calm and unscathed over their
> emotional turmoil, and believe me, I know what it's like to have your
> kid go through emotional turmoil!
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Margaret
I like Jenny's email idea. I think in general, having a big
conversation about it in front of the group makes it harder because
the child who's behavior is being criticized is embarrassed (labels or
not).
If something happens again he could say something, but not make a big
deal about it or be very confrontational. He could say something
short in a voice that was only slightly irritated if it happened
again, and I think that would be fine (knock it off, stop it, don't
say that etc.). If he's already said something to her in email, he
could even try giving her a look first to see if that is enough to
stop her.
Margaret
conversation about it in front of the group makes it harder because
the child who's behavior is being criticized is embarrassed (labels or
not).
If something happens again he could say something, but not make a big
deal about it or be very confrontational. He could say something
short in a voice that was only slightly irritated if it happened
again, and I think that would be fine (knock it off, stop it, don't
say that etc.). If he's already said something to her in email, he
could even try giving her a look first to see if that is enough to
stop her.
Margaret
Sandra Dodd
-=-> My first thought is that any kid wether aspergers or not, if
they are
Sometimes when a child has Asperger's traits, the mom does too, to a
lesser extent (in half a dozen to ten cases I could name but I
won't). I only know one set in which the mom is worse than the
child, and it's not a homeschooling family. The daughter (who is 31,
neither my age nor Holly's) is marginally involved in my life and
causes much trouble with zero remorse. Very self-righteous and
talkative and socially destructive.
Sometimes appealing to the mom won't help much.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
they are
> doing something irritating to others should be made aware of it. Ifsubtle
> it's indeed true that this girl is aspergers, she might not get
> social cues and may not even be aware that it is hurting people.-=-Or she might not know and also might not care.
Sometimes when a child has Asperger's traits, the mom does too, to a
lesser extent (in half a dozen to ten cases I could name but I
won't). I only know one set in which the mom is worse than the
child, and it's not a homeschooling family. The daughter (who is 31,
neither my age nor Holly's) is marginally involved in my life and
causes much trouble with zero remorse. Very self-righteous and
talkative and socially destructive.
Sometimes appealing to the mom won't help much.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna Murphy
I agree with jen (and others)--help your son talk to this girl--either verbally or through e-
mail. They had a direct experience--everything else is essentially gossip.
Joanna
mail. They had a direct experience--everything else is essentially gossip.
Joanna
lyeping2008
But I am a mother of an asperger child. If my child were to do or say
something that's hurting another person or child, I WOULD expect to be
told about it. And I would seriously appreciate being inform about it,
rather than have people isolating us and talking behind my child's
back.
I have recently told a mother how her child's behaviour is hurting my
son's feelings, despite my son talking to her son many times about it.
It blew up in my face big time LOL!! She (in my opinion) is a case of
not interested in rectifying the problem, but blame it on someone
else. LOL! So I am isolating her NOW!
Hugs,
SharoBugs.
something that's hurting another person or child, I WOULD expect to be
told about it. And I would seriously appreciate being inform about it,
rather than have people isolating us and talking behind my child's
back.
I have recently told a mother how her child's behaviour is hurting my
son's feelings, despite my son talking to her son many times about it.
It blew up in my face big time LOL!! She (in my opinion) is a case of
not interested in rectifying the problem, but blame it on someone
else. LOL! So I am isolating her NOW!
Hugs,
SharoBugs.
lyeping2008
> But I am a mother of an asperger child.----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry, typo error. The "but" was not supposed to be there.
But I also wanna say, I am kinda aspie myself LOL! So I am conscious
that sometimes I too can say the wrong thing and hurt someone's
feelings without realising it. It's un-intentional. It's just that I
can be very direct and matter of factly sort of person.
I remember when I was young, I too then to give people cute
nicknames, it's a sign of affection and closeness. But now that I'm
older, I realised that it can be hurtful, and not funny at all.
Maybe this girl is like this. Maybe she's just showing affection and
her liking a person by giving them a "cute name".
In my opinion, it would be kind to made her aware that whatever she's
doing, it's not gaining her any affection. So in this sense, perhaps
speaking to the mother might be a good move, a fair move, because it
will be the mother's call to handle it anyhow she deem fit, isn't it?
The mother will also now how to handle it gentler because very often
when we're dealing with aspergers, we're also dealing with low self
esteem.
If she decides not to do anything and reject your approach, then you
and your child should be allowed to do what is best for you guys, with
a clean conscience.
I would certainly make the effort to explain to my child why certain
action he thinks is funny, might not be classified as funny to others.
It wouldn't be fair to let him get on with it, and gain some very
unfavourable re-actions.
All the best.
Big Hugs,
SharonBugs.
Sandra Dodd
-=-But I am a mother of an asperger child. If my child were to do or say
something that's hurting another person or child, I WOULD expect to be
told about it. -=-
Sometimes I have talked to a mother, and sometimes I haven't. I have
no obligation to do so.
-=-And I would seriously appreciate being inform about it, rather
than have people isolating us and talking behind my child's back. -=-
That too, though... It's not a choice a person gets to have, about
her own life. I can't demand that people give me feedback about my
kids. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. I can't demand
that people socialize with me or invite me to parties. I can't
demand that they not talk about me behind my back.
People can live their own lives in the best way they can figure out
to do it, and then deal with the responses. That's the best anyone
can do, as far as I know.
-=-I have recently told a mother how her child's behaviour is hurting
my son's feelings, despite my son talking to her son many times about
it. It blew up in my face big time LOL!! She (in my opinion) is a
case of not interested in rectifying the problem, but blame it on
someone else. LOL! So I am isolating her NOW!-=-
One way of looking at it is that your son doesn't enjoy her son's
company. Okay. That's not something she or her son really have to
deal with. VERY many times parents *are* willing to help their
children get along with other children, especially when they're
involved in activities or they're relatives and it's good for the
longterm peace of that other project.
This seems to be asking too much: "not interested in rectifying the
problem"
Sometimes what one person sees as a problem isn't a problem to
another person. Just as "it's only playing if everyone's playing,"
sometimes it's only a problem if two people agree that it's a problem.
One of my kids' many young-adult friends was over here one night.
Marty had been out to eat with him, and then Marty wanted to come
home and go to bed. They both came back to the house and talked a
while and Marty said "I need to sleep, I'm going to bed" and he did.
The other friend should have left, but he started hanging out with
Holly and her boyfriend. After a while Holly wanted him to go home.
He hadn't been invited, Marty had heavily hinted for him to leave,
and he was being purposely dense because he just didn't want to go
home to his own apartment and his own cat. I do feel sorry for him,
but Holly was home in her own house and minding her own business.
He wrote to her the next day and said he would like to find a time to
get together with Holly to discuss how she could be nicer to him in
the future. It pissed me off. I talked to Holly and Marty both and
reminded them that IF they bring someone into the house that's fine,
but it's NOT fine to abandon the friend or foist them off on others.
If someone comes in because of them, they need to hang out with that
person and entertain them until they time they walk them back out the
door. I was willing to tell the friend myself that Holly has no
obligation to be nice to him if he comes over uninvited by her and
doesn't take any "go home" hints. But Holly does like him and had
already apologized and said she was tired and she was sorry she
wasn't nicer.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
something that's hurting another person or child, I WOULD expect to be
told about it. -=-
Sometimes I have talked to a mother, and sometimes I haven't. I have
no obligation to do so.
-=-And I would seriously appreciate being inform about it, rather
than have people isolating us and talking behind my child's back. -=-
That too, though... It's not a choice a person gets to have, about
her own life. I can't demand that people give me feedback about my
kids. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. I can't demand
that people socialize with me or invite me to parties. I can't
demand that they not talk about me behind my back.
People can live their own lives in the best way they can figure out
to do it, and then deal with the responses. That's the best anyone
can do, as far as I know.
-=-I have recently told a mother how her child's behaviour is hurting
my son's feelings, despite my son talking to her son many times about
it. It blew up in my face big time LOL!! She (in my opinion) is a
case of not interested in rectifying the problem, but blame it on
someone else. LOL! So I am isolating her NOW!-=-
One way of looking at it is that your son doesn't enjoy her son's
company. Okay. That's not something she or her son really have to
deal with. VERY many times parents *are* willing to help their
children get along with other children, especially when they're
involved in activities or they're relatives and it's good for the
longterm peace of that other project.
This seems to be asking too much: "not interested in rectifying the
problem"
Sometimes what one person sees as a problem isn't a problem to
another person. Just as "it's only playing if everyone's playing,"
sometimes it's only a problem if two people agree that it's a problem.
One of my kids' many young-adult friends was over here one night.
Marty had been out to eat with him, and then Marty wanted to come
home and go to bed. They both came back to the house and talked a
while and Marty said "I need to sleep, I'm going to bed" and he did.
The other friend should have left, but he started hanging out with
Holly and her boyfriend. After a while Holly wanted him to go home.
He hadn't been invited, Marty had heavily hinted for him to leave,
and he was being purposely dense because he just didn't want to go
home to his own apartment and his own cat. I do feel sorry for him,
but Holly was home in her own house and minding her own business.
He wrote to her the next day and said he would like to find a time to
get together with Holly to discuss how she could be nicer to him in
the future. It pissed me off. I talked to Holly and Marty both and
reminded them that IF they bring someone into the house that's fine,
but it's NOT fine to abandon the friend or foist them off on others.
If someone comes in because of them, they need to hang out with that
person and entertain them until they time they walk them back out the
door. I was willing to tell the friend myself that Holly has no
obligation to be nice to him if he comes over uninvited by her and
doesn't take any "go home" hints. But Holly does like him and had
already apologized and said she was tired and she was sorry she
wasn't nicer.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna Murphy
--- In [email protected], "lyeping2008" <lyeping2008@...> wrote:
interpretation that someone has told you because your child has aspergers?
I've seen this happen both ways. I've seen someone assume that her child was at fault,
when I was there and could see clearly that the other child was having problems and
precipitated the whole event. And I've seen people assume that it was the asperger's
child's fault because, well, of course it was 'cause that child is always "bad." Just one
problem with labels.
And I would seriously appreciate being inform about it,
attempted to talk about a problem, it was quickly apparent it wasn't true--with multiple
people. My experience has been that most people don't really want to be told when their
children aren't charming, but they will say they do, because the always want to be
"honest." (There is a sarcastic tone that may not have come across in my e-mail--LOL)
And the way something is "told" can make all the difference, as well as how many times
they've been told lately, how they are feeling in the moment, whether they feel safe in a
social situation, etc. It's not necessarily a simple thing.
coming across a little too critically--I don't know. But it still seems clear to me that the
original poster wasn't there and it's still second-hand information to her. It didn't happen
to her son, so the focus should be on what did happen to her son, which is that he didn't
like seeing the girl being mean to his friend. This seems like one, to me, that's between
the kids, and mom's job is to support her son, not intervene between this girl and the
other boy after-the-fact.
Joanna
>And would you automatically assume that your child is at fault because that is the
> But I am a mother of an asperger child. If my child were to do or say
> something that's hurting another person or child, I WOULD expect to be
> told about it.
interpretation that someone has told you because your child has aspergers?
I've seen this happen both ways. I've seen someone assume that her child was at fault,
when I was there and could see clearly that the other child was having problems and
precipitated the whole event. And I've seen people assume that it was the asperger's
child's fault because, well, of course it was 'cause that child is always "bad." Just one
problem with labels.
And I would seriously appreciate being inform about it,
> rather than have people isolating us and talking behind my child'sI've had people tell me that up front in a friendship, yet when I or another friend has
> back.
attempted to talk about a problem, it was quickly apparent it wasn't true--with multiple
people. My experience has been that most people don't really want to be told when their
children aren't charming, but they will say they do, because the always want to be
"honest." (There is a sarcastic tone that may not have come across in my e-mail--LOL)
And the way something is "told" can make all the difference, as well as how many times
they've been told lately, how they are feeling in the moment, whether they feel safe in a
social situation, etc. It's not necessarily a simple thing.
>Again, in my experience, this is the rule rather than the exception. And you might be
> I have recently told a mother how her child's behaviour is hurting my
> son's feelings, despite my son talking to her son many times about it.
> It blew up in my face big time LOL!! She (in my opinion) is a case of
> not interested in rectifying the problem, but blame it on someone
> else. LOL! So I am isolating her NOW!
>
coming across a little too critically--I don't know. But it still seems clear to me that the
original poster wasn't there and it's still second-hand information to her. It didn't happen
to her son, so the focus should be on what did happen to her son, which is that he didn't
like seeing the girl being mean to his friend. This seems like one, to me, that's between
the kids, and mom's job is to support her son, not intervene between this girl and the
other boy after-the-fact.
Joanna
lyeping2008
--- In [email protected], "Joanna Murphy" <ridingmom@...>
wrote:
And would you automatically assume that your child is at fault because
that is the interpretation that someone has told you because your
child has aspergers?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
A little bit off topic, bt I would like to response to Joanna.
No. Just because my kid's got asperger, it does not automatically mean
it's his fault. On contrary, I have work very hard at un-tangling
the "it's always my fault" mentality that we have to deal with 21
months ago. Like I said, when we're dealing with asperger, it is quite
commonly we're dealing with low self esteem issues, especially if the
child been taken out of school.
I always believe there's 2 side to a story. Which is why I always seek
to listen to both side. So if a parent comes to me, I've heard herside
first. Then I'll go hear my son's version. This provide me a good
picture of what happened. For me, a valuable opportunity for me to
understand my son's individual way of thinking, and also a chance to
help him understand and manage this complex world of social do's and
don't. Or if he comes to me first, then I'll approach the other
parent, seeking her child's side fo the story.
Either way, it's always a little mis-understanding that, with a little
insight and explanation, very easily explained.
In my case, an apology is always in the air - either we're expecting
it (and rarely getting it LOL!), or we're the ones offering it.
To me, saying sorry is not necessary about admitting we're wrong or
acknowledging faults. Saying sorry is about acknowledging that someone
feelings has been hurt. Such a simple word, but yet so effective in
dispersing any tension and heartache there is.
But Sandra is right. I cannot expect other people to be tell me
anything. I cannot expect people to think like me. Sorry might be such
a simple and healing word to me, but to some other's it might mean
alot more.
So in my case, as and when my kid is innocent and the other parent do
not acknowledge it and not offer the healing word of sorry, I always
tell my son "I'm sorry the other mummy didn't believe you, but it's ok
because I do". He's learnt that by saying sorry, he's capable of
healing another person's heart. But if he doesn't receive it, it's ok
too. It's NOT because he's at fault but only because the other party
is uncomfortable giving it. And he's happy, and life moves on.
I cannot expect poeple to reciprocate the way I do, and I don't. But
foolish me still go on hoping and expecting <BWG> !
Have a lovely day everyone.
Bigs Hugs,
SharonBugs.
wrote:
And would you automatically assume that your child is at fault because
that is the interpretation that someone has told you because your
child has aspergers?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
A little bit off topic, bt I would like to response to Joanna.
No. Just because my kid's got asperger, it does not automatically mean
it's his fault. On contrary, I have work very hard at un-tangling
the "it's always my fault" mentality that we have to deal with 21
months ago. Like I said, when we're dealing with asperger, it is quite
commonly we're dealing with low self esteem issues, especially if the
child been taken out of school.
I always believe there's 2 side to a story. Which is why I always seek
to listen to both side. So if a parent comes to me, I've heard herside
first. Then I'll go hear my son's version. This provide me a good
picture of what happened. For me, a valuable opportunity for me to
understand my son's individual way of thinking, and also a chance to
help him understand and manage this complex world of social do's and
don't. Or if he comes to me first, then I'll approach the other
parent, seeking her child's side fo the story.
Either way, it's always a little mis-understanding that, with a little
insight and explanation, very easily explained.
In my case, an apology is always in the air - either we're expecting
it (and rarely getting it LOL!), or we're the ones offering it.
To me, saying sorry is not necessary about admitting we're wrong or
acknowledging faults. Saying sorry is about acknowledging that someone
feelings has been hurt. Such a simple word, but yet so effective in
dispersing any tension and heartache there is.
But Sandra is right. I cannot expect other people to be tell me
anything. I cannot expect people to think like me. Sorry might be such
a simple and healing word to me, but to some other's it might mean
alot more.
So in my case, as and when my kid is innocent and the other parent do
not acknowledge it and not offer the healing word of sorry, I always
tell my son "I'm sorry the other mummy didn't believe you, but it's ok
because I do". He's learnt that by saying sorry, he's capable of
healing another person's heart. But if he doesn't receive it, it's ok
too. It's NOT because he's at fault but only because the other party
is uncomfortable giving it. And he's happy, and life moves on.
I cannot expect poeple to reciprocate the way I do, and I don't. But
foolish me still go on hoping and expecting <BWG> !
Have a lovely day everyone.
Bigs Hugs,
SharonBugs.
lyeping2008
" There was a mom, Mary (NOT Susie's mom, but the mother of an
Asperger's labeled child), nearby who overheard what was going on and
spoke up, saying, "You know, Susie has Asperger's Syndrome. That's
just how she is, she's trying to joke around with the kids and thinks
she's being funny. If one of the kids says something to her, it's
just going to get worse. If you tell her mom, she'll HANDLE it." I
took from the way she said "handle it" that Susie was either going to
get a severe dressing down or physically punished. Mary is a gossip
and kind of twists things in the retelling to make conflict, so I'm
not too happy she overheard this and took it out of context, but the
real problem is how do I handle it, now?
I don't want to be the cause of Susie getting laid into"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
My earlier response was meant for the above. The asperger condition
was supposedly established. Hence I am responding from an asperger
mum's point of view.
Despite Mary being a nosy eves-dropper, she is right, from my view of
a mother to an asperger child.
The word "Handle" would mean we know how to talk to our asperger child
about certain things, without denting thier self esteem or compounding
more worries onto the child. We also know how far to push our child's
button without them re-acting negatively, agressively or depressively,
causing lots of meltdowns and insercurities.
This is what Mary is saying "If one of the kids says something to her,
it's just going to get worse."
What Mary is saying is there is a chance Susie will speed up her
nicknames calling when she's stressed, knowing that she's annoyed the
other children and is potentially losing the friendship. But yet is
unable to break the vicious cycle of needing to keep retreating back
into the comfort of the action of nicknames calling, trying to hang
onto the established grounds of friendship that she's made.
In another word, she doesn't know how to stop doing it.
I wrote earlier that the possiblity she's progressed to nicknames as a
sign of affection. So she might ply more nicknames, thinking
being "funny" is a good way to establish friendship and effections.
When her mum "Handles" it, the mother will know how to point out and
explain to Susie that she's already made that friendship bond. But
now, she potentially losing this friendship by nicknames calling. The
mother will then point out to Susie that nicknames calling to her is
funny, but to others it's call "hurting". The mother and Susis will
then have to work on a friendly tactic and a more nurturing approach,
to the friendship.
I'm not saying that Susis' mom will not "lay into her" because I don't
know her. Maybe the poster have a more first hand observation of
Susie's mum, whether she's the type that will give Susie a severe
dressing down, or maybe the mother is the type who's kind and
protective of her daughter. I have yet to meet any mum with
a "diagnosed asperger condition" child who will get offended if
approach about thier child's un-welcome behaviour. If anything, we
aspie mum's do understand and will strive to help make it an easier
world for our children and everyone concern.
I'm not saying or defending that the label entitle us or our children
to behaving differently, but the "differentness" in an asperger
child's mind is very real, and what they perceived to be normal and
funny, is distinctly different to ours. They are also very narrow
focus minded to a point of obliviousness, so it will help the child
when the parents points out many different emotions and actions
possible, outside thier very limited one track minds.
So maybe the poster need to establish if the child is really with the
asperger condition or not before taking it further?
Again, I do understand what Sandra wrote about people is not obligated
to do anything for other people. But then if you saw someone in a
wheel chair trying to get up the hill, wouldn't you offer a helping
hand along the way? Having asperger is just as disabling, but
unfortunately it's not as visible as a wheel chair or walking stick.
Hope this helps.
Hugs,
SharonBugs.
Asperger's labeled child), nearby who overheard what was going on and
spoke up, saying, "You know, Susie has Asperger's Syndrome. That's
just how she is, she's trying to joke around with the kids and thinks
she's being funny. If one of the kids says something to her, it's
just going to get worse. If you tell her mom, she'll HANDLE it." I
took from the way she said "handle it" that Susie was either going to
get a severe dressing down or physically punished. Mary is a gossip
and kind of twists things in the retelling to make conflict, so I'm
not too happy she overheard this and took it out of context, but the
real problem is how do I handle it, now?
I don't want to be the cause of Susie getting laid into"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
My earlier response was meant for the above. The asperger condition
was supposedly established. Hence I am responding from an asperger
mum's point of view.
Despite Mary being a nosy eves-dropper, she is right, from my view of
a mother to an asperger child.
The word "Handle" would mean we know how to talk to our asperger child
about certain things, without denting thier self esteem or compounding
more worries onto the child. We also know how far to push our child's
button without them re-acting negatively, agressively or depressively,
causing lots of meltdowns and insercurities.
This is what Mary is saying "If one of the kids says something to her,
it's just going to get worse."
What Mary is saying is there is a chance Susie will speed up her
nicknames calling when she's stressed, knowing that she's annoyed the
other children and is potentially losing the friendship. But yet is
unable to break the vicious cycle of needing to keep retreating back
into the comfort of the action of nicknames calling, trying to hang
onto the established grounds of friendship that she's made.
In another word, she doesn't know how to stop doing it.
I wrote earlier that the possiblity she's progressed to nicknames as a
sign of affection. So she might ply more nicknames, thinking
being "funny" is a good way to establish friendship and effections.
When her mum "Handles" it, the mother will know how to point out and
explain to Susie that she's already made that friendship bond. But
now, she potentially losing this friendship by nicknames calling. The
mother will then point out to Susie that nicknames calling to her is
funny, but to others it's call "hurting". The mother and Susis will
then have to work on a friendly tactic and a more nurturing approach,
to the friendship.
I'm not saying that Susis' mom will not "lay into her" because I don't
know her. Maybe the poster have a more first hand observation of
Susie's mum, whether she's the type that will give Susie a severe
dressing down, or maybe the mother is the type who's kind and
protective of her daughter. I have yet to meet any mum with
a "diagnosed asperger condition" child who will get offended if
approach about thier child's un-welcome behaviour. If anything, we
aspie mum's do understand and will strive to help make it an easier
world for our children and everyone concern.
I'm not saying or defending that the label entitle us or our children
to behaving differently, but the "differentness" in an asperger
child's mind is very real, and what they perceived to be normal and
funny, is distinctly different to ours. They are also very narrow
focus minded to a point of obliviousness, so it will help the child
when the parents points out many different emotions and actions
possible, outside thier very limited one track minds.
So maybe the poster need to establish if the child is really with the
asperger condition or not before taking it further?
Again, I do understand what Sandra wrote about people is not obligated
to do anything for other people. But then if you saw someone in a
wheel chair trying to get up the hill, wouldn't you offer a helping
hand along the way? Having asperger is just as disabling, but
unfortunately it's not as visible as a wheel chair or walking stick.
Hope this helps.
Hugs,
SharonBugs.
Sandra Dodd
None of the writing past this line is mine. The original anonymous questioner responding
and asking more questions:
----------------------------
In a message dated 10/11/2008 5:43:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Always Learning
writes:
-=-And I would seriously appreciate being inform about it, rather
than have people isolating us and talking behind my child's back. -=-
That's exactly why I posted it anonymously, so that anyone who might happen upon it
(however unlikely) that was there would not think I was spreading stories all over the
internet. I wanted some input on how to help *my* child deal with the situation in which
he was uncomfortable, and he was uncomfortable for both of his friends. Hopefully, the
girl will go to her mother, as my child came to me, to discuss things once my son has
dealt with things in his own way.
-=-But I also wanna say, I am kinda aspie myself LOL! So I am conscious
that sometimes I too can say the wrong thing and hurt someone's
feelings without realising it. It's un-intentional. It's just that I
can be very direct and matter of factly sort of person. -=-
So, then does your husband expect to be told about it? Does he appreciate being told
about it rather than have people talk behind your back?
I'm not trying to talk behind anyone's back, I'm trying to find the kindest way to help my
son deal with something that is making at least 3 other people uncomfortable. He's fairly
used to negotiating between friends and aquaintences when there are disagreements and
such, but he's not really been around a situation where there's "name calling",
embarrassment and hurt feelings.
-=-In my opinion, it would be kind to made her aware that whatever she's
doing, it's not gaining her any affection. So in this sense, perhaps
speaking to the mother might be a good move, a fair move, because it
will be the mother's call to handle it anyhow she deem fit, isn't it? -=-
I don't see how that will help my son or the girl in other situations or in places where
there isn't a parent to tell. Isn't that what unschooling is about-helping our kids
understand and deal with the world as it comes when they're ready for it?
-=-The mother will also now how to handle it gentler because very often
when we're dealing with aspergers, we're also dealing with low self
esteem. -=-
My son cannot be gentle or gentle "enough" because he doesn't have a child with
Aspergers? He has other friends with Aspergers and I haven't had any mention from them
or their parents that my son cannot be "gentle enough" with their feelings. It would seem
to me that coming to me about hurt feelings all around and not saying something to the
girl before he talked with me would indicate a pretty big need to be gentle with other
people's feelings.
With my son (and maybe with other kids), going to a parent with "an issue" tends to give it
more weight-make it A Problem rather than just "a bump" that can be managed or
manuvered around. Needing a parent's involvement tends to give negative "bad" weight to
it as well. It just seems a lot easier, simpler, even kinder to let him give a casual comment
to her in private, after the activity, rather than to make a big issue out of it...
and asking more questions:
----------------------------
In a message dated 10/11/2008 5:43:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Always Learning
writes:
-=-And I would seriously appreciate being inform about it, rather
than have people isolating us and talking behind my child's back. -=-
That's exactly why I posted it anonymously, so that anyone who might happen upon it
(however unlikely) that was there would not think I was spreading stories all over the
internet. I wanted some input on how to help *my* child deal with the situation in which
he was uncomfortable, and he was uncomfortable for both of his friends. Hopefully, the
girl will go to her mother, as my child came to me, to discuss things once my son has
dealt with things in his own way.
-=-But I also wanna say, I am kinda aspie myself LOL! So I am conscious
that sometimes I too can say the wrong thing and hurt someone's
feelings without realising it. It's un-intentional. It's just that I
can be very direct and matter of factly sort of person. -=-
So, then does your husband expect to be told about it? Does he appreciate being told
about it rather than have people talk behind your back?
I'm not trying to talk behind anyone's back, I'm trying to find the kindest way to help my
son deal with something that is making at least 3 other people uncomfortable. He's fairly
used to negotiating between friends and aquaintences when there are disagreements and
such, but he's not really been around a situation where there's "name calling",
embarrassment and hurt feelings.
-=-In my opinion, it would be kind to made her aware that whatever she's
doing, it's not gaining her any affection. So in this sense, perhaps
speaking to the mother might be a good move, a fair move, because it
will be the mother's call to handle it anyhow she deem fit, isn't it? -=-
I don't see how that will help my son or the girl in other situations or in places where
there isn't a parent to tell. Isn't that what unschooling is about-helping our kids
understand and deal with the world as it comes when they're ready for it?
-=-The mother will also now how to handle it gentler because very often
when we're dealing with aspergers, we're also dealing with low self
esteem. -=-
My son cannot be gentle or gentle "enough" because he doesn't have a child with
Aspergers? He has other friends with Aspergers and I haven't had any mention from them
or their parents that my son cannot be "gentle enough" with their feelings. It would seem
to me that coming to me about hurt feelings all around and not saying something to the
girl before he talked with me would indicate a pretty big need to be gentle with other
people's feelings.
With my son (and maybe with other kids), going to a parent with "an issue" tends to give it
more weight-make it A Problem rather than just "a bump" that can be managed or
manuvered around. Needing a parent's involvement tends to give negative "bad" weight to
it as well. It just seems a lot easier, simpler, even kinder to let him give a casual comment
to her in private, after the activity, rather than to make a big issue out of it...
Ren Allen
~~The word "Handle" would mean we know how to talk to our asperger child
about certain things, without denting thier self esteem or compounding
more worries onto the child.~~
This whole conversation is starting to bother me at a very deep level.
All mindful parents know how to handle situations with their child
without denting their self-esteem or compounding worries hopefully.
All this talk about "aspie" children being handled differently is
worrisome at an unschooling list.
If we are to be mindful parents, we don't need to use labels so much
when describing our children. We would hopefully be in tune and aware
to the point that we are assisting ALL of our children when they need
us, regardless of their unique character traits and issues.
Focusing so much on the Asperger's issue is harmful. A child in need,
is a child in need. With or without a label they need help in certain
social situations. We all have our quirks and traits that make
relationships and human interactions challenging at times.
Ren
about certain things, without denting thier self esteem or compounding
more worries onto the child.~~
This whole conversation is starting to bother me at a very deep level.
All mindful parents know how to handle situations with their child
without denting their self-esteem or compounding worries hopefully.
All this talk about "aspie" children being handled differently is
worrisome at an unschooling list.
If we are to be mindful parents, we don't need to use labels so much
when describing our children. We would hopefully be in tune and aware
to the point that we are assisting ALL of our children when they need
us, regardless of their unique character traits and issues.
Focusing so much on the Asperger's issue is harmful. A child in need,
is a child in need. With or without a label they need help in certain
social situations. We all have our quirks and traits that make
relationships and human interactions challenging at times.
Ren
Sandra Dodd
-=-Like I said, when we're dealing with asperger, it is quite
commonly we're dealing with low self esteem issues, especially if the
child been taken out of school. -=-
You mean, I think, especially if the child had once been in school?
The taking out of school shouldn't be considered a cause of low self
esteem.
-=-I always believe there's 2 side to a story. Which is why I always
seek to listen to both side. So if a parent comes to me, I've heard
her side first. Then I'll go hear my son's version. This provide me a
good picture of what happened.-=-
That would be leaving out the account of the other child. There are
never only two sides to a story. If you think of it as aspects
instead of sides, there are MANY aspects or facets of a story,
involving the moods and reactions and circumstances and witnesses and
history and possible future (are they both involved in an upcoming
project?) and the effect on others...
That's not to say I think every situation needs to be untangled to
the end of all strings. It can't be, and probably shouldn't be.
Make one suggestion that will help next time and let it go, if possible.
-=-For me, a valuable opportunity for me to
understand my son's individual way of thinking, and also a chance to
help him understand and manage this complex world of social do's and
don't. Or if he comes to me first, then I'll approach the other
parent, seeking her child's side of the story. -=-
A child shouldn't be required to relive a frustrating or confusing or
hutful moment just so the mother of the other child can understand
her own child better. Sometimes, maybe, if the circumstances make
it better for everyone, but RARELY should a situation need to be
fully dissected and laid out to dry and documented like an
archeological dig.
-=-Sorry might be such a simple and healing word to me, but to some
other's it might mean alot more. -=-
Sometimes it means a lot less, when someone isn't really admitting
wrong or acknowledging faults.
-=-So in my case, as and when my kid is innocent and the other parent do
not acknowledge it and not offer the healing word of sorry, I always
tell my son "I'm sorry the other mummy didn't believe you, but it's ok
because I do". He's learnt that by saying sorry, he's capable of
healing another person's heart. -=-
Putting a salve on a situation isn't necessary healing a heart.
Sorry is better than nothing, usually. Maybe instead of seeing such
situations (this example, the one from the anonymous mom, the one
with the swimming pool in the apartments, the one with the theater
try-outs...) as having innocence and truth and healing, it might be
WAY better for moms to see ways to advise their children to be
generous and compassionate and less antagonistic for the future.
There will be other times. "Better" is a better way to go than
"right."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
commonly we're dealing with low self esteem issues, especially if the
child been taken out of school. -=-
You mean, I think, especially if the child had once been in school?
The taking out of school shouldn't be considered a cause of low self
esteem.
-=-I always believe there's 2 side to a story. Which is why I always
seek to listen to both side. So if a parent comes to me, I've heard
her side first. Then I'll go hear my son's version. This provide me a
good picture of what happened.-=-
That would be leaving out the account of the other child. There are
never only two sides to a story. If you think of it as aspects
instead of sides, there are MANY aspects or facets of a story,
involving the moods and reactions and circumstances and witnesses and
history and possible future (are they both involved in an upcoming
project?) and the effect on others...
That's not to say I think every situation needs to be untangled to
the end of all strings. It can't be, and probably shouldn't be.
Make one suggestion that will help next time and let it go, if possible.
-=-For me, a valuable opportunity for me to
understand my son's individual way of thinking, and also a chance to
help him understand and manage this complex world of social do's and
don't. Or if he comes to me first, then I'll approach the other
parent, seeking her child's side of the story. -=-
A child shouldn't be required to relive a frustrating or confusing or
hutful moment just so the mother of the other child can understand
her own child better. Sometimes, maybe, if the circumstances make
it better for everyone, but RARELY should a situation need to be
fully dissected and laid out to dry and documented like an
archeological dig.
-=-Sorry might be such a simple and healing word to me, but to some
other's it might mean alot more. -=-
Sometimes it means a lot less, when someone isn't really admitting
wrong or acknowledging faults.
-=-So in my case, as and when my kid is innocent and the other parent do
not acknowledge it and not offer the healing word of sorry, I always
tell my son "I'm sorry the other mummy didn't believe you, but it's ok
because I do". He's learnt that by saying sorry, he's capable of
healing another person's heart. -=-
Putting a salve on a situation isn't necessary healing a heart.
Sorry is better than nothing, usually. Maybe instead of seeing such
situations (this example, the one from the anonymous mom, the one
with the swimming pool in the apartments, the one with the theater
try-outs...) as having innocence and truth and healing, it might be
WAY better for moms to see ways to advise their children to be
generous and compassionate and less antagonistic for the future.
There will be other times. "Better" is a better way to go than
"right."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
=-I have yet to meet any mum with
a "diagnosed asperger condition" child who will get offended if
approach about thier child's un-welcome behaviour. -=-
I have.
-=-Again, I do understand what Sandra wrote about people is not
obligated to do anything for other people. But then if you saw
someone in a wheel chair trying to get up the hill, wouldn't you
offer a helping hand along the way? Having asperger is just as
disabling, but unfortunately it's not as visible as a wheel chair or
walking stick.-=-
I disagree with this analogy. The wheel chair helps a child who
can't walk.
Better behavior will help children whose social skills aren't coming
as naturally to them as they do to some other kids.
It's not okay for my kids to have to roll over and take abuse from
kids because they've been diagnosed ADD or aspergers or anything
else. I don't expect kids to all be expected to behave as well as
the suavest of socially skilled kids. I also don't expect anyone to
hold up a label as a "king's X" in a social situation and say "You're
rude for not letting my kid be rude, because there's something wrong
with him."
I think that as parents, we should each be protecting our children
from harm AND helping them learn not to be the causes of harm.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
a "diagnosed asperger condition" child who will get offended if
approach about thier child's un-welcome behaviour. -=-
I have.
-=-Again, I do understand what Sandra wrote about people is not
obligated to do anything for other people. But then if you saw
someone in a wheel chair trying to get up the hill, wouldn't you
offer a helping hand along the way? Having asperger is just as
disabling, but unfortunately it's not as visible as a wheel chair or
walking stick.-=-
I disagree with this analogy. The wheel chair helps a child who
can't walk.
Better behavior will help children whose social skills aren't coming
as naturally to them as they do to some other kids.
It's not okay for my kids to have to roll over and take abuse from
kids because they've been diagnosed ADD or aspergers or anything
else. I don't expect kids to all be expected to behave as well as
the suavest of socially skilled kids. I also don't expect anyone to
hold up a label as a "king's X" in a social situation and say "You're
rude for not letting my kid be rude, because there's something wrong
with him."
I think that as parents, we should each be protecting our children
from harm AND helping them learn not to be the causes of harm.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-This whole conversation is starting to bother me at a very deep
level.
All mindful parents know how to handle situations with their child
without denting their self-esteem or compounding worries hopefully.
All this talk about "aspie" children being handled differently is
worrisome at an unschooling list.-=-
I agree.
I think some people are replacing the idea of school with the idea of
"homeschooling play group" (or, with apologies to Ren in this Blog
Carnival month) "tribe" (which bugs me nineteen ways, or at least
three).
There is the undercurrent of an idea that unschoolers need to find
other unschooling families and then their kids will live in
unschooling paradise. This can cause another whole set of problems.
YES, sometimes families hit it off. Sometimes playgroups last for
*years* (ours here lasted six or seven good years, others have lasted
longer, some don't last a year). Sometimes a conference experience
can be emotionally and spiritually transporting, but you can't live
at a conference. It's meant to give you good ideas you can take into
your own daily life. That's one reason I worry about the "non com"
deals that don't have speakers. Being where other people are being
loose and free and sweet is great, but it can't happen in groups 24
hours a day. Somewhere in there people need to learn what's creating
those relationships so they can have them at home, themselves, far
from other unschoolers, on a Tuesday of a bad week, and not just wait
for another chance to bask in the somewhat mysterious happiness of a
big group of unschoolers.
So...
I'm preachin' to the choir, because people here are on a serious
unschooling discussion list, I know. Sorry.
There were complaints after the Live and Learn conference in St.
Louis a few years ago, that it had been just like school because some
of the girls already knew each other and so there were "cliques." It
seemed to me the most just-like-school aspect of that was the idea
that my daughter (any or every daughter) had to socialize with
everyone equally, just because they were there, just because they
were unschoolers.
School has the outward appearance of kids having lots of friends. On
the inside they're saying "You're not here to socialize," and if
someone has six or ten friends she's really lucky. Some have two,
one or none. Some have way more enemies and abusers than friends.
So back to the topic here. The idea that other unschoolers are
obligated to be kind and generous to and therapeutic for other
unschooling kids seems to go against the more central principles of
choices and the right to just say no.
I could tell lots of stories of my kids being generous and kind and
therapeutic, but every single time, they did it because they wanted
to. And there were times they didn't want to, and so they didn't.
If I try to pressure my kids to become practice pads for kids who
need social-skills-drumming, how is that right and good?
Holly reminded me the other day of an incident at a conference in
Albuquerque in which some younger girls had asked her to come to
their room and play. She was with older girls and said "Right now
I'm doing [whatever], but I'll come up there later," and she got the
room number.
I didn't hear any of this until later, and I was glad she brought it
up again this week, because it made me proud of her, and it also gave
me a story to tell here.
The mom didn't really think Holly would show up, but the little girls
were sure, and they wanted to go to the room and wait. It might
have been an easy thing for a teenager to say "yeah, sure, later" and
then forget all about it, or be persuaded to come do other things
with the teens. But Holly said she would, and she did. She went
there and played and had fun.
Had I known and "made her" go there, she wouldn't have had fun. She
might not have gone. We might have had an argument about it. She
wouldn't have been as likely to share stories with me after that.
But without ANY parental involvement, of her own volition, she made
that offer and carried it through in a direct and real way.
I think this is the result of years of me keeping my word to her (not
counting mending; there are some things in the mending pile I haven't
gotten to, and I feel guilty), and talking through situations with
her in which her feelings were hurt or she had hurt other people's
feelings, for years and years before that day. She wants to feel
good. She likes to feel good.
There have been other incidents at conferences where other kids or
parents weren't as nice or as appreciative, but Holly's pretty good
at seeing what part of the problem is hers and what is theirs, and
not in a mean, challenging "HA! I won this one!" way, either, but in
a "That wasn't as smooth as it could've been" way.
I'm helping her live in the world, not helping the world adapt to
Holly (nor demanding that people treat her the way I imagine they
should if I were the director of all the lives around me).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
level.
All mindful parents know how to handle situations with their child
without denting their self-esteem or compounding worries hopefully.
All this talk about "aspie" children being handled differently is
worrisome at an unschooling list.-=-
I agree.
I think some people are replacing the idea of school with the idea of
"homeschooling play group" (or, with apologies to Ren in this Blog
Carnival month) "tribe" (which bugs me nineteen ways, or at least
three).
There is the undercurrent of an idea that unschoolers need to find
other unschooling families and then their kids will live in
unschooling paradise. This can cause another whole set of problems.
YES, sometimes families hit it off. Sometimes playgroups last for
*years* (ours here lasted six or seven good years, others have lasted
longer, some don't last a year). Sometimes a conference experience
can be emotionally and spiritually transporting, but you can't live
at a conference. It's meant to give you good ideas you can take into
your own daily life. That's one reason I worry about the "non com"
deals that don't have speakers. Being where other people are being
loose and free and sweet is great, but it can't happen in groups 24
hours a day. Somewhere in there people need to learn what's creating
those relationships so they can have them at home, themselves, far
from other unschoolers, on a Tuesday of a bad week, and not just wait
for another chance to bask in the somewhat mysterious happiness of a
big group of unschoolers.
So...
I'm preachin' to the choir, because people here are on a serious
unschooling discussion list, I know. Sorry.
There were complaints after the Live and Learn conference in St.
Louis a few years ago, that it had been just like school because some
of the girls already knew each other and so there were "cliques." It
seemed to me the most just-like-school aspect of that was the idea
that my daughter (any or every daughter) had to socialize with
everyone equally, just because they were there, just because they
were unschoolers.
School has the outward appearance of kids having lots of friends. On
the inside they're saying "You're not here to socialize," and if
someone has six or ten friends she's really lucky. Some have two,
one or none. Some have way more enemies and abusers than friends.
So back to the topic here. The idea that other unschoolers are
obligated to be kind and generous to and therapeutic for other
unschooling kids seems to go against the more central principles of
choices and the right to just say no.
I could tell lots of stories of my kids being generous and kind and
therapeutic, but every single time, they did it because they wanted
to. And there were times they didn't want to, and so they didn't.
If I try to pressure my kids to become practice pads for kids who
need social-skills-drumming, how is that right and good?
Holly reminded me the other day of an incident at a conference in
Albuquerque in which some younger girls had asked her to come to
their room and play. She was with older girls and said "Right now
I'm doing [whatever], but I'll come up there later," and she got the
room number.
I didn't hear any of this until later, and I was glad she brought it
up again this week, because it made me proud of her, and it also gave
me a story to tell here.
The mom didn't really think Holly would show up, but the little girls
were sure, and they wanted to go to the room and wait. It might
have been an easy thing for a teenager to say "yeah, sure, later" and
then forget all about it, or be persuaded to come do other things
with the teens. But Holly said she would, and she did. She went
there and played and had fun.
Had I known and "made her" go there, she wouldn't have had fun. She
might not have gone. We might have had an argument about it. She
wouldn't have been as likely to share stories with me after that.
But without ANY parental involvement, of her own volition, she made
that offer and carried it through in a direct and real way.
I think this is the result of years of me keeping my word to her (not
counting mending; there are some things in the mending pile I haven't
gotten to, and I feel guilty), and talking through situations with
her in which her feelings were hurt or she had hurt other people's
feelings, for years and years before that day. She wants to feel
good. She likes to feel good.
There have been other incidents at conferences where other kids or
parents weren't as nice or as appreciative, but Holly's pretty good
at seeing what part of the problem is hers and what is theirs, and
not in a mean, challenging "HA! I won this one!" way, either, but in
a "That wasn't as smooth as it could've been" way.
I'm helping her live in the world, not helping the world adapt to
Holly (nor demanding that people treat her the way I imagine they
should if I were the director of all the lives around me).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
> I cannot expect poeple to reciprocate the way I do, and I don't. ButRidding ourselves of expectations is incredibly important not just for
> foolish me still go on hoping and expecting <BWG> !
unschooling but in life. Having an idea about how others *should* behave is
often not useful, especially considering that our ideas may frequently fail
to pan out, sometimes disappointingly, sometimes happily.
In parenting Karl, I notice that he has his own perspective and is not the
child I was. He's a different person. I also notice that I have my own
perspective as an adult, and looking back my retrospective view of me as
child is *not* totally the one I had when I was a child. Unschooling is not
about changing the perspectives of the people involved. We wouldn't wish to
throw out all the understanding we've gained since we were children and
parent from there. Instead, the practice of unschooling and the experience
of other unschoolers offers (hopefully more clearly) a picture of how to
interact with children.
Putting the focus squarely on happy endings can easily bypass the needs of
the people living in the moment within the current situation. It's limited
in approach. We can't find happiness simply by saying it's so and ignoring
unmet (unheard) needs.
In unschooling radically, the goal is peaceful interactions. To have that,
it's imperative to leave behind our expectations about how people will act
and react. It's helps to avoid speaking for unknowns, and to have a greater
respect for those unknowns. To know that unknowns are there to be
discovered and considered.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Unschooling is not
about changing the perspectives of the people involved. We wouldn't
wish to
throw out all the understanding we've gained since we were children and
parent from there.-=-
I don't understand this. "The people involved" isn't clear
(family? Everyone in the world?).
This is downright ambiguous:
-=-We wouldn't wish to throw out all the understanding we've
gained...-=-
Throw it out there like suggestions and ideas?
Discard it?
Please rephrase that paragraph.
-=-Putting the focus squarely on happy endings can easily bypass the
needs of the people living in the moment within the current
situation. It's limited in approach. We can't find happiness simply
by saying it's so and ignoring unmet (unheard) needs.-=-
I think I disagree with you, but I'm not sure what you're saying. I
LOVE happy endings for my kids.
I like to focus on happy endings. Why do you think it's limited?
I'm guessing your use of "happy endings" isn't naming what I'm
picturing.
-=-In unschooling radically, the goal is peaceful interactions. To
have that, it's imperative to leave behind our expectations about how
people will act and react.-=-
Could you qualify your statement a little more on this list? (And
maybe other places.)
For me, the goal of unschooling is learning.
I think you've made a VERY strong statement without saying "for me,"
or "I think" and then followed it with an imperative. On this one
I'm sure I disagree. It's too solid; it's too inflexible. You're
speaking for all radical unschoolers without looking back to see if
others agree.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
about changing the perspectives of the people involved. We wouldn't
wish to
throw out all the understanding we've gained since we were children and
parent from there.-=-
I don't understand this. "The people involved" isn't clear
(family? Everyone in the world?).
This is downright ambiguous:
-=-We wouldn't wish to throw out all the understanding we've
gained...-=-
Throw it out there like suggestions and ideas?
Discard it?
Please rephrase that paragraph.
-=-Putting the focus squarely on happy endings can easily bypass the
needs of the people living in the moment within the current
situation. It's limited in approach. We can't find happiness simply
by saying it's so and ignoring unmet (unheard) needs.-=-
I think I disagree with you, but I'm not sure what you're saying. I
LOVE happy endings for my kids.
I like to focus on happy endings. Why do you think it's limited?
I'm guessing your use of "happy endings" isn't naming what I'm
picturing.
-=-In unschooling radically, the goal is peaceful interactions. To
have that, it's imperative to leave behind our expectations about how
people will act and react.-=-
Could you qualify your statement a little more on this list? (And
maybe other places.)
For me, the goal of unschooling is learning.
I think you've made a VERY strong statement without saying "for me,"
or "I think" and then followed it with an imperative. On this one
I'm sure I disagree. It's too solid; it's too inflexible. You're
speaking for all radical unschoolers without looking back to see if
others agree.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
We're dashing out the door. I'll answer these questions and clarifications
later.
~Katherine
later.
~Katherine
On 10/12/08, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -=-Unschooling is not
> about changing the perspectives of the people involved. We wouldn't
> wish to
> throw out all the understanding we've gained since we were children and
> parent from there.-=-
>
> I don't understand this. "The people involved" isn't clear
> (family? Everyone in the world?).
>
> This is downright ambiguous:
>
> -=-We wouldn't wish to throw out all the understanding we've
> gained...-=-
>
> Throw it out there like suggestions and ideas?
>
> Discard it?
>
> Please rephrase that paragraph.
>
> -=-Putting the focus squarely on happy endings can easily bypass the
> needs of the people living in the moment within the current
> situation. It's limited in approach. We can't find happiness simply
> by saying it's so and ignoring unmet (unheard) needs.-=-
>
> I think I disagree with you, but I'm not sure what you're saying. I
> LOVE happy endings for my kids.
>
> I like to focus on happy endings. Why do you think it's limited?
> I'm guessing your use of "happy endings" isn't naming what I'm
> picturing.
>
> -=-In unschooling radically, the goal is peaceful interactions. To
> have that, it's imperative to leave behind our expectations about how
> people will act and react.-=-
>
> Could you qualify your statement a little more on this list? (And
> maybe other places.)
>
> For me, the goal of unschooling is learning.
>
> I think you've made a VERY strong statement without saying "for me,"
> or "I think" and then followed it with an imperative. On this one
> I'm sure I disagree. It's too solid; it's too inflexible. You're
> speaking for all radical unschoolers without looking back to see if
> others agree.
>
> Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
For one thing, the reference to "happy endings" is about having an
expectation for apologies, that it's a band-aid in many situations where, as
you mentioned in your own reply, the people involved (meaning those who find
themselves in a social conflict or indirectly involved after the fact) may
not feel sorry. I said "squarely" about happy endings for a reason.. and I
should have emphasized it more somehow.
We're going somewhere and didn't take enough time to make things as clear I
like. I'll answer more when I get back.
~Katherine
expectation for apologies, that it's a band-aid in many situations where, as
you mentioned in your own reply, the people involved (meaning those who find
themselves in a social conflict or indirectly involved after the fact) may
not feel sorry. I said "squarely" about happy endings for a reason.. and I
should have emphasized it more somehow.
We're going somewhere and didn't take enough time to make things as clear I
like. I'll answer more when I get back.
~Katherine
On 10/12/08, k <katherand@...> wrote:
> We're dashing out the door. I'll answer these questions and
clarifications later.
>
> ~Katherine
>
>
>
>
>
> On 10/12/08, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -=-Unschooling is not
> > about changing the perspectives of the people involved. We wouldn't
> > wish to
> > throw out all the understanding we've gained since we were children and
> > parent from there.-=-
> >
> > I don't understand this. "The people involved" isn't clear
> > (family? Everyone in the world?).
> >
> > This is downright ambiguous:
> >
> > -=-We wouldn't wish to throw out all the understanding we've
> > gained...-=-
> >
> > Throw it out there like suggestions and ideas?
> >
> > Discard it?
> >
> > Please rephrase that paragraph.
> >
> > -=-Putting the focus squarely on happy endings can easily bypass the
> > needs of the people living in the moment within the current
> > situation. It's limited in approach. We can't find happiness simply
> > by saying it's so and ignoring unmet (unheard) needs.-=-
> >
> > I think I disagree with you, but I'm not sure what you're saying. I
> > LOVE happy endings for my kids.
> >
> > I like to focus on happy endings. Why do you think it's limited?
> > I'm guessing your use of "happy endings" isn't naming what I'm
> > picturing.
> >
> > -=-In unschooling radically, the goal is peaceful interactions. To
> > have that, it's imperative to leave behind our expectations about how
> > people will act and react.-=-
> >
> > Could you qualify your statement a little more on this list? (And
> > maybe other places.)
> >
> > For me, the goal of unschooling is learning.
> >
> > I think you've made a VERY strong statement without saying "for me,"
> > or "I think" and then followed it with an imperative. On this one
> > I'm sure I disagree. It's too solid; it's too inflexible. You're
> > speaking for all radical unschoolers without looking back to see if
> > others agree.
> >
> > Sandra
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-For one thing, the reference to "happy endings" is about having an
expectation for apologies, that it's a band-aid in many situations
where, as
you mentioned in your own reply, the people involved (meaning those
who find
themselves in a social conflict or indirectly involved after the
fact) may
not feel sorry-=-
Ah. Okay.
We've come to have happy endings without expecting or needing an
apology for someone else's inability to find happiness. If they was a
problem and someone's actually sorry, that's a whole new chapter, a
whole new incident, in my thinking.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
expectation for apologies, that it's a band-aid in many situations
where, as
you mentioned in your own reply, the people involved (meaning those
who find
themselves in a social conflict or indirectly involved after the
fact) may
not feel sorry-=-
Ah. Okay.
We've come to have happy endings without expecting or needing an
apology for someone else's inability to find happiness. If they was a
problem and someone's actually sorry, that's a whole new chapter, a
whole new incident, in my thinking.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
> I always believe there's 2 side to a story. Which is why I always seekWhile there may be 2 sides to every story, I don't think all sides are
> to listen to both side.
completely valid!
Chamille has always been extremely honest about doings and happenings,
she's also always been fair and really into everyone being treated
fairly. So, when altercations happened with kids, I always went to
Chamille first, not just because she's my daughter, but because I know
without a doubt, I will get an accurate account of what happened. She's
proven this time and time again.
I've even said to other kids, "well Chamille has told me this and I
trust her completely, you all know that she's fair and honest about
these things." and because they do know that she's fair and honest,
they look to her for accurate and fair accounting of things, or handling
mediation between people at discord.
Margaux on the other hand, is not this way, so while her side is most
definitely how she interpreted the event, it's not always 100% exactly
what actually happened. I know this, just as much as I know that
Chamille gives very accurate accounts, so I can take that into
consideration when negotiating social things with her. Margaux is
getting better and better as time goes on, so it's definitely a learning
curve sort of thing to becoming more empathetic towards others.
Jenny C
> The word "Handle" would mean we know how to talk to our asperger childAspergers or no aspergers, kids need to figure out how to navigate their
> about certain things, without denting thier self esteem or compounding
> more worries onto the child. We also know how far to push our child's
> button without them re-acting negatively, agressively or depressively,
> causing lots of meltdowns and insercurities.
social world. Naturally, if the parent is nearby, they should be
helping them negotiate it. If they aren't then, another kid telling
another kid that they don't like something and could they please stop,
is completely and totally valid.
We've had asperger and non asperger friends over the course of the
years. I see no difference at all in how they should be treated in this
context. In other contexts maybe, like at times we've had to keep a
quiet space in our house for an asperger guest for them to retreat to,
but that's no different from not offering to give ice cream to a kid we
know can't eat it.
> What Mary is saying is there is a chance Susie will speed up herPerhaps I'm being harsh here, but if a kid isn't going to be nice,
> nicknames calling when she's stressed, knowing that she's annoyed the
> other children and is potentially losing the friendship. But yet is
> unable to break the vicious cycle of needing to keep retreating back
> into the comfort of the action of nicknames calling, trying to hang
> onto the established grounds of friendship that she's made.
>
> In another word, she doesn't know how to stop doing it.
perhaps they aren't ready for that kind of social interaction. It
absolutely doesn't mean that all the other kids shouldn't say anything
about it or that they should have to routinely put up with it, just
because the other child can't help themselves.
> I wrote earlier that the possiblity she's progressed to nicknames as aIf all the other kids know this and if that is actually what is
> sign of affection. So she might ply more nicknames, thinking
> being "funny" is a good way to establish friendship and effections.
>
happening, they could turn it into a silly name calling game. They
won't know this if they don't ever tell her or talk to her about it
though.
Sandra Dodd
-=-Aspergers or no aspergers, kids need to figure out how to navigate
their
social world. Naturally, if the parent is nearby, they should be
helping them negotiate it. If they aren't then, another kid telling
another kid that they don't like something and could they please stop,
is completely and totally valid.-=-
If the kid's request doesn't help, I think the mom should request
directly, instead of going to get the other child's mother.
If someone (ANYone--stranger, relative, friend, adult or child) is
being tacky or rude and my child is stuck in a place where he or she
doesn't know how to respond, I don't hesitate to say "He doesn't want
to talk about that," or "Please be nice" or something. I don't say
"You creepy horrible person! Get away from my child!" But neither
do I let that situation escalate and fester while I wonder where the
mom might be.
-=-We've had asperger and non asperger friends over the course of the
years. I see no difference at all in how they should be treated in
this context. In other contexts maybe, like at times we've had to
keep a quiet space in our house for an asperger guest for them to
retreat to, but that's no different from not offering to give ice
cream to a kid we know can't eat it.-=-
I don't think that's a "special needs" issue either. In the past few
days I've seen people (adults and teens) need a quiet room when they
were visiting because
1) recent accident with head injury; fine for a few hours, but needs
naps
2) stressed out over three months of caring for head injury partner;
not in the mood for a big crowd, so went for a walk with me
3) teenaged girl having a rough first day of her period
4) teenaged boy with mono, fine for a few hours but needs to play a
quiet game in a dark room a time or two a day
5) husband (mine) home from a crazy stressful day of nonsense, needs
to be alone to do physical things and get the adrenaline out
It's always good to give people the option of party/no party, noisy
game/quiet game/no game; bright light/darker place.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
their
social world. Naturally, if the parent is nearby, they should be
helping them negotiate it. If they aren't then, another kid telling
another kid that they don't like something and could they please stop,
is completely and totally valid.-=-
If the kid's request doesn't help, I think the mom should request
directly, instead of going to get the other child's mother.
If someone (ANYone--stranger, relative, friend, adult or child) is
being tacky or rude and my child is stuck in a place where he or she
doesn't know how to respond, I don't hesitate to say "He doesn't want
to talk about that," or "Please be nice" or something. I don't say
"You creepy horrible person! Get away from my child!" But neither
do I let that situation escalate and fester while I wonder where the
mom might be.
-=-We've had asperger and non asperger friends over the course of the
years. I see no difference at all in how they should be treated in
this context. In other contexts maybe, like at times we've had to
keep a quiet space in our house for an asperger guest for them to
retreat to, but that's no different from not offering to give ice
cream to a kid we know can't eat it.-=-
I don't think that's a "special needs" issue either. In the past few
days I've seen people (adults and teens) need a quiet room when they
were visiting because
1) recent accident with head injury; fine for a few hours, but needs
naps
2) stressed out over three months of caring for head injury partner;
not in the mood for a big crowd, so went for a walk with me
3) teenaged girl having a rough first day of her period
4) teenaged boy with mono, fine for a few hours but needs to play a
quiet game in a dark room a time or two a day
5) husband (mine) home from a crazy stressful day of nonsense, needs
to be alone to do physical things and get the adrenaline out
It's always good to give people the option of party/no party, noisy
game/quiet game/no game; bright light/darker place.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-> I wrote earlier that the possiblity she's progressed to
nicknames as a
13, 14). Their nicknames were very rarely anywhere in the realm of
affectionate or funny. They ranged from dopey waste-of-time to
cruelty-leaning-toward-ostracization.
I don't like to be called things other than my own name. I really
don't like it when someone has made a nickname and won't stop when I
ask them to stop. It's abusive.
There seems to me to be a very dangerous precedent to be set if other
kids are expected to be kind and understanding of a "labelled" child,
when some of the worst name-calling in the world has to do with labels.
If my child one single time called a Robert "Bobby" against his will,
I would clearly and seriously say it's not okay to call people things
they don't want to be called. I wouldn't tell Robert it meant they
liked him. I wouldn't let them figure it out on their own.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nicknames as a
> sign of affection. So she might ply more nicknames, thinkingI taught Jr. High. Those kids were 11 to 15 years old (mostly 12,
> being "funny" is a good way to establish friendship and effections.
>-=-
13, 14). Their nicknames were very rarely anywhere in the realm of
affectionate or funny. They ranged from dopey waste-of-time to
cruelty-leaning-toward-ostracization.
I don't like to be called things other than my own name. I really
don't like it when someone has made a nickname and won't stop when I
ask them to stop. It's abusive.
There seems to me to be a very dangerous precedent to be set if other
kids are expected to be kind and understanding of a "labelled" child,
when some of the worst name-calling in the world has to do with labels.
If my child one single time called a Robert "Bobby" against his will,
I would clearly and seriously say it's not okay to call people things
they don't want to be called. I wouldn't tell Robert it meant they
liked him. I wouldn't let them figure it out on their own.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gold Standard
>>Perhaps I'm being harsh here, but if a kid isn't going to be nice,I think the desire as a parent for our children to have positive social
>>perhaps they aren't ready for that kind of social interaction.<<
experiences can cloud our judgment in providing useful paths this way. With
my guy, I tried to force social experiences when, as stated above, he wasn't
ready, and potentially wasn't even interested. He may have made vague
references to wanting to get together with others, but probably not to the
extent that I tried to get it together for him. I was overhearing, rather
than really hearing, if you know what I mean.
He was probably around 12 before he started having mostly appropriate
positive social interactions...ones where he listened and watched as much as
he participated with his own often eccentric twist. Socially he was still a
bit jilt, and others knew he was struggling somewhat, but he wasn't
offensive to anyone. He was just another unique critter in the crowd.
It helped too to find accepting groups of people to hang with, along with
the regular run-of-the-mill crowd. Having people who specifically don't
judge and who handle awkwardness kindly gave the experience to my guy that
not all people were assholes (that is often the perception I think when what
you get from people is mostly negative, and you don't know why).
Anyway, maybe if a kid isn't going to be nice, or if a kid has regular
unpleasant social experiences, finding what gives them joy until things
shift, change, evolve is a great way to go. For us, practice in
socialization in large group experiences wasn't really a good idea. Small
groups, or single-person monitored interactions grew to better larger group
experiences, though to this day he is not a party-goer, as many of us
aren't.
On a side note, Andrew has been creating a Halloween event, I think he's
calling it "Slaughterhouse", where he is transforming our downstairs into an
experiential nightmarish kind-of place. He has enlisted 10 actors to
participate, has created really eerie spaces to bring groups through...one
with sound-making stuff and when people start their own music, white ghosty
people will come down the stairs, dance erratically and then bleed from
their mouths and chests and scream. One room has 6 TV's with no reception,
just white fuzz, and a story of evil sprits coming through the screens will
be told. Participants are told to stare at the TV and draw/write the message
they receive. There will be only black and red markers/paint available with
drawing pads. They will then be rushed outside by a screaming maniac telling
them the spirits will get them otherwise. Outside there are 5 gravestones
with people lying under tarps in front of them...you guessed it, zombies
will rise from the dead and scare the bejeebies out of them.
Pretty cool stuff!
Jacki
Gold Standard
Lol, so I just read my own post and was a little startled.
people who paid little attention to respectful behavior or communication. I
was usually right there with my guy to avoid social problems, but he was
still who he was, and even things that weren't disrespectful, but just odd,
would elicit unkind comments from kids and adults. Having this often in
one's life can lead to negative beliefs about people, and one's self.
The Halloween event described is meant for informed people who know that
weird, creepy things await inside and for people who want to partake. I
assume that is assumed, but people with young children reading the paragraph
on its own may be a little wierded out. It's more a teenager thing.
Thanks,
Jacki
>>Socially he was still aI meant "jolty" not "jilt" (highlighted the wrong spellcheck word).
>>bit jilt,<<
>>It helped too to find accepting groups of people to hang with, along withBy run of the mill crowd, I meant our more generic homeschool groups, with
>>the regular run-of-the-mill crowd.<<
people who paid little attention to respectful behavior or communication. I
was usually right there with my guy to avoid social problems, but he was
still who he was, and even things that weren't disrespectful, but just odd,
would elicit unkind comments from kids and adults. Having this often in
one's life can lead to negative beliefs about people, and one's self.
The Halloween event described is meant for informed people who know that
weird, creepy things await inside and for people who want to partake. I
assume that is assumed, but people with young children reading the paragraph
on its own may be a little wierded out. It's more a teenager thing.
Thanks,
Jacki
donnakeeble
> On a side note, Andrew has been creating a Halloween event, I think he'sinto an
> calling it "Slaughterhouse", where he is transforming our downstairs
> experiential nightmarish kind-of place. He has enlisted 10 actors tothrough...one
> participate, has created really eerie spaces to bring groups
> with sound-making stuff and when people start their own music, whiteghosty
> people will come down the stairs, dance erratically and then bleed fromreception,
> their mouths and chests and scream. One room has 6 TV's with no
> just white fuzz, and a story of evil sprits coming through thescreens will
> be told. Participants are told to stare at the TV and draw/write themessage
> they receive. There will be only black and red markers/paintavailable with
> drawing pads. They will then be rushed outside by a screaming maniactelling
> them the spirits will get them otherwise. Outside there are 5gravestones
> with people lying under tarps in front of them...you guessed it, zombiesThis is totally cool!!! My son likes the same thing. Aidan regularly
> will rise from the dead and scare the bejeebies out of them.
>
> Pretty cool stuff!
> Jacki
>
has friends over to make haunted houses - through our bathroom (that
has a front and back door), in our computer room, haunted backyard
last year where people rode through in the trailer attached to our
riding lawn mower. We've had a haunted barn in the past and he's
started decorating the front yard for Halloween this year. He would
love to see your son's Slaughterhouse!! A friend has plan for him to
help her with her Halloween party this year. She has created some
pretty spectacular haunted barns and carriage rides in the past. I am
also planning to get to several of the local haunted houses this year.
He also likes to make scary movies. He has always loved scary movies
and scary stories. He started with Scooby Doo and Goosebumps and
progressed by way of Hitchcock films to Friday the 13th, Nightmare on
Elm Street, etc. He has made several of his own films - two are on
youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As0G1ihWv70 and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn0LoL37RDQ&feature=related We have
talked about suspense versus in your face gore and how it plays out in
our favorites. We have attended a showing of a film which was
produced and filmed locally - Aidan was able to speak with the
director to ask how he got started. He does a lot of his own make-up
and special effects for the gore scenes of some of his other movies
and has spent hours online researching the materials and techniques.
He has run a scar workshop at an unschooling campout we attended. He
has also spent time asking questions and picking up new tips at the
local magic and costume shops where he buys some of his supplies.
It's been fun watching his interest expand from just watching scary
movies to exploring all aspects of the process and then branching off
into haunted houses.
Donna
k
On 10/12/08, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
lacked simple information. I'm well acquainted with that problem, being so
hard of hearing. And occasionally there's even been situations where the
giving of information is not a clear reason to clear up misunderstandings
when it would infringe on someone's privacy or other needs or arrangements
or whatever. Or on someone's needs .. a person not directly involved but
affected by the situation, like children who in many cases have no say.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Yes and sometimes there have been unintended offenses from someone who
>
>
>
>
>
> -=-For one thing, the reference to "happy endings" is about having an
> expectation for apologies, that it's a band-aid in many situations
> where, as
> you mentioned in your own reply, the people involved (meaning those
> who find
> themselves in a social conflict or indirectly involved after the
> fact) may
> not feel sorry-=-
>
> Ah. Okay.
>
> We've come to have happy endings without expecting or needing an
> apology for someone else's inability to find happiness. If they was a
> problem and someone's actually sorry, that's a whole new chapter, a
> whole new incident, in my thinking.
>
> Sandra
lacked simple information. I'm well acquainted with that problem, being so
hard of hearing. And occasionally there's even been situations where the
giving of information is not a clear reason to clear up misunderstandings
when it would infringe on someone's privacy or other needs or arrangements
or whatever. Or on someone's needs .. a person not directly involved but
affected by the situation, like children who in many cases have no say.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]