Help negotiating with neighbor
Robyn L. Coburn
It seems like it's always friends. The only time I have strain or pain with Jayn, it is some issue to do with friends. It is hard to live in apartments with common areas that everyone has rights to. It's hard to have neighbors that are inescapable.
Today Jayn had two lovely sisters come over to swim and play. As it turns out, they had spent the morning in a class with our neighbors. We live in a big city, but with a small homeschooling community, so it is reasonable to think that there will be many common acquaintances.
After a while our neighbor's little girl decided to join Jayn and her friends in their game uninvited, and Jayn didn't want her to. Now I know that the pool and courtyard is a common area. They have the right to use that area, and I said so to Jayn. But Jayn asked for her space. She didn't want them muscling in on her playdate and changing the dynamic. Of course the little girl was sad and disappointed and her brother was angry on her behalf.
A little while later the other two did come and swim and they all played together for a while. And it did change the dynamic, and Jayn coped with it, using some of her coping mechanisms like getting loud and clowning around, until they went inside. But not before I saw the boy making nasty visual jokes at Jayn's expense with her friends - like "she's crazy" hand circles when she wasn't looking.
So it seemed like it had all sorted out, then I got an email from my neighbor saying that Jayn had been "inconsiderate and disrespectful" by saying she did not want K. joining their game. She tried to say it in a pleading way, and K. didn't ask if she could play, she just showed up with an expectation because her mom had told her she could join them.
Here's the quote:
"I think this is inconsiderate and dis-respectful to ask my children to not interact with kids that we happened to have spent the entire morning with at a nature class simply because Jayn wishes so. I hope that you can help make this clear to Jayn that these kinds of requests are simply not an option."
Now these were kids that Jayn and I had invited for the purpose of playing with Jayn. Simply because Jayn wishes so should be enough, and how they spent their morning is nothing to do with me. I don't invite children to play at our house, give them lots of snacks and food, help them with all kinds of toys and costumes, and watch their plays, for any other purpose than for Jayn to play with them. These girls love coming here, and this is the first time I realized that they even knew our neighbors at all. Here's an analogy: It's like a lady went to lunch with a colleague yesterday, so she should feel free to join him and his date when she notices him by chance at the same neighborhood eatery.
The history of that family is one of self first, last and always. I've seen their behavior in museums. If I started saying that her children couldn't make requests of Jayn, (and they are often brusque and demanding IMO), if I used that "not an option" language the other woman would be outraged. Her children's feelings are all that matters in public situations or private ones.
There have been a couple of times in the past when James and Jayn have been playing in the pool (which is not a real big one btw) and they have come home from somewhere and immediately announced that they are going swimming - as is their right. Jayn has really sweetly asked if they would mind waiting just a little while so that she can finish swimming alone with her dad (which is never long because James get cold and earachey pretty fast) but they have said no, and refused, and been totally backed up by their parents - with a lot of jargon thrown around. Yes it was their right to use the pool, but it isn't kind, or neighborly, or considerate.
And I find it really annoying that she can appear to be so reasonable and open to negotiate, but I have come to the conclusion that she is using the language of mindful parenting, the jargon of it, as a means of exerting control. There is a hypocrisy there, a two facedness - and her kids are sneakier, and more aggressive than she ever likes to admit. I have the emails to prove that last point.
When Jayn plays with them she always comes back changed for while, more beligerent, more demanding, more cranky, not relaxed or joyful, as she recovers from being in a very rule bound home - but always expressed *as if* the children had a choice even though they really don't. However having been through the difference (in Jayn's response and recovery) between merely not-very-nice kids and a truly toxic personality, I have been trying to help Jayn keep the relationship alive. Jayn likes these kids, although less than she used to as she gradually sees more kindly people. This is the same mom who I posted about recently who wasn't willing to be a visual presence. I feel like I am sliding into one of those nasty situations, again like I posted about recently - the temptation to let the relationship implode.
These kids have a lot of suppressed anger I think. They come to our house to use Jayn's things. Their mom regularly purges their toys to the Goodwill, so that even 6 months after giving a carefully thought out gift for a birthday, it's gone. Yes I feel a bit resentful. And then they are coming to our house to use Jayn's similar toys. I think Jayn is beginning to see that a lot of it is a one way street.
I hate confrontation. I hate it,hate it, hate it.I hate feeling afraid and embarrassed. I feel like moving out tomorrow but we can't afford to do so. The reason I would want to remain cordial is because Jayn still considers these two to be her friends. I have fantasies about screaming "keep your horrible children away from my daughter".
My neighbor's wish is that I lay down some rules to Jayn about suppressing her own desires. I think the whole sadness could have been avoided if the mom had been a bit more circumspect, as I am with Jayn when they have guests, and said something like what I have said, "It looks like A & K are busy with some visitors.Let's wait and play later." Or just said "Hi" in passing. Or come out herself and checked with Jayn before encouraging K to come out. Or maybe, possibly spent a single minute talking about being kind to our neighbors, instead of insisting on "rights". It is true that sometimes I have had a battle to bring Jayn in from the balcony, when she is not welcome to play (and I guess it's ok for *her* kids to tell Jayn "you can't play with me and my friend" but not ok for mine to feel the same way.) But I do it, and sometimes I even take her out rather than have her suffer from watching, or let her be intrusive.
Jayn *needs* these one- or two-on-one playdates. Groups and park days are only part of the picture. Should she be required to share her friends when they come over?
I have suggested that I arrange future playdates for times when they will be out anyway, if it is possible, but I have not heard back yet. Here is part of my response, directly in response to the above quote (feeling outraged at the hyporcrisy of that is hard to get past):
"I agree that the pool is a communal space, and I have expressed that to Jayn. Indeed I was saying so again from the balcony at the time, but I don't think you heard me.
However muscling in on Jayn's playdate and changing the dynamic, just because you happen to know the visitors from another place is another matter. From Jayn's point of view Karine and Alan were being very disrespectful of her and her time to play with these special friends. I do not think accepting such behavior is a reasonable requirement to make of Jayn.
I am NOT at all willing to tell her that "asking for her space" (her expression tonight that she tells me she learnt from you) to play alone with her guests is "not an option". I WILL coach her to be less reactive and kinder in her expression, BUT she has every right to play with only her visitors regardless of whether your kids know them or have spent time with them earlier (as do A... and K.... when they have guests). "
Help! I need some perspective, or better words or something. I'm really struggling with trying to see her point of view. I think I believe that I should do so, that I should be reasonable, that I should give her my assumption of good intentions. I also feel like I have done this so often, so greatly and let so much slide that I am close to fed up with the whole relationship. I do know that I will want to be extra vigilant during any imminent interactions between Jayn and our neighbors, especially the boy, because historically there has often been a little bit of underhanded revenge nastiness, usually verbal, sometimes physical (like the mean spirited hand circling) - and I have seen Jayn just look baffled since this kind of thing goes right past her.
Pam, one of the reasons I am so willing to drive all the way to Dragontree, aside from the delight of seeing you and the soul's joy of just being around other lovely unschoolers, is that I am almost entirely unlikely to meet up with these neighbors there. That is not the case with any of the other park days that are more local to me.
Every time it's a problem with neighbors...it must be me. Is it me? Does it count that James can't stand 'em? Solving the social stuff with unschoolers never seems to be this hard or fear inducing. Makes me want to move to a cave somewhere....
Thanks for listening.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Today Jayn had two lovely sisters come over to swim and play. As it turns out, they had spent the morning in a class with our neighbors. We live in a big city, but with a small homeschooling community, so it is reasonable to think that there will be many common acquaintances.
After a while our neighbor's little girl decided to join Jayn and her friends in their game uninvited, and Jayn didn't want her to. Now I know that the pool and courtyard is a common area. They have the right to use that area, and I said so to Jayn. But Jayn asked for her space. She didn't want them muscling in on her playdate and changing the dynamic. Of course the little girl was sad and disappointed and her brother was angry on her behalf.
A little while later the other two did come and swim and they all played together for a while. And it did change the dynamic, and Jayn coped with it, using some of her coping mechanisms like getting loud and clowning around, until they went inside. But not before I saw the boy making nasty visual jokes at Jayn's expense with her friends - like "she's crazy" hand circles when she wasn't looking.
So it seemed like it had all sorted out, then I got an email from my neighbor saying that Jayn had been "inconsiderate and disrespectful" by saying she did not want K. joining their game. She tried to say it in a pleading way, and K. didn't ask if she could play, she just showed up with an expectation because her mom had told her she could join them.
Here's the quote:
"I think this is inconsiderate and dis-respectful to ask my children to not interact with kids that we happened to have spent the entire morning with at a nature class simply because Jayn wishes so. I hope that you can help make this clear to Jayn that these kinds of requests are simply not an option."
Now these were kids that Jayn and I had invited for the purpose of playing with Jayn. Simply because Jayn wishes so should be enough, and how they spent their morning is nothing to do with me. I don't invite children to play at our house, give them lots of snacks and food, help them with all kinds of toys and costumes, and watch their plays, for any other purpose than for Jayn to play with them. These girls love coming here, and this is the first time I realized that they even knew our neighbors at all. Here's an analogy: It's like a lady went to lunch with a colleague yesterday, so she should feel free to join him and his date when she notices him by chance at the same neighborhood eatery.
The history of that family is one of self first, last and always. I've seen their behavior in museums. If I started saying that her children couldn't make requests of Jayn, (and they are often brusque and demanding IMO), if I used that "not an option" language the other woman would be outraged. Her children's feelings are all that matters in public situations or private ones.
There have been a couple of times in the past when James and Jayn have been playing in the pool (which is not a real big one btw) and they have come home from somewhere and immediately announced that they are going swimming - as is their right. Jayn has really sweetly asked if they would mind waiting just a little while so that she can finish swimming alone with her dad (which is never long because James get cold and earachey pretty fast) but they have said no, and refused, and been totally backed up by their parents - with a lot of jargon thrown around. Yes it was their right to use the pool, but it isn't kind, or neighborly, or considerate.
And I find it really annoying that she can appear to be so reasonable and open to negotiate, but I have come to the conclusion that she is using the language of mindful parenting, the jargon of it, as a means of exerting control. There is a hypocrisy there, a two facedness - and her kids are sneakier, and more aggressive than she ever likes to admit. I have the emails to prove that last point.
When Jayn plays with them she always comes back changed for while, more beligerent, more demanding, more cranky, not relaxed or joyful, as she recovers from being in a very rule bound home - but always expressed *as if* the children had a choice even though they really don't. However having been through the difference (in Jayn's response and recovery) between merely not-very-nice kids and a truly toxic personality, I have been trying to help Jayn keep the relationship alive. Jayn likes these kids, although less than she used to as she gradually sees more kindly people. This is the same mom who I posted about recently who wasn't willing to be a visual presence. I feel like I am sliding into one of those nasty situations, again like I posted about recently - the temptation to let the relationship implode.
These kids have a lot of suppressed anger I think. They come to our house to use Jayn's things. Their mom regularly purges their toys to the Goodwill, so that even 6 months after giving a carefully thought out gift for a birthday, it's gone. Yes I feel a bit resentful. And then they are coming to our house to use Jayn's similar toys. I think Jayn is beginning to see that a lot of it is a one way street.
I hate confrontation. I hate it,hate it, hate it.I hate feeling afraid and embarrassed. I feel like moving out tomorrow but we can't afford to do so. The reason I would want to remain cordial is because Jayn still considers these two to be her friends. I have fantasies about screaming "keep your horrible children away from my daughter".
My neighbor's wish is that I lay down some rules to Jayn about suppressing her own desires. I think the whole sadness could have been avoided if the mom had been a bit more circumspect, as I am with Jayn when they have guests, and said something like what I have said, "It looks like A & K are busy with some visitors.Let's wait and play later." Or just said "Hi" in passing. Or come out herself and checked with Jayn before encouraging K to come out. Or maybe, possibly spent a single minute talking about being kind to our neighbors, instead of insisting on "rights". It is true that sometimes I have had a battle to bring Jayn in from the balcony, when she is not welcome to play (and I guess it's ok for *her* kids to tell Jayn "you can't play with me and my friend" but not ok for mine to feel the same way.) But I do it, and sometimes I even take her out rather than have her suffer from watching, or let her be intrusive.
Jayn *needs* these one- or two-on-one playdates. Groups and park days are only part of the picture. Should she be required to share her friends when they come over?
I have suggested that I arrange future playdates for times when they will be out anyway, if it is possible, but I have not heard back yet. Here is part of my response, directly in response to the above quote (feeling outraged at the hyporcrisy of that is hard to get past):
"I agree that the pool is a communal space, and I have expressed that to Jayn. Indeed I was saying so again from the balcony at the time, but I don't think you heard me.
However muscling in on Jayn's playdate and changing the dynamic, just because you happen to know the visitors from another place is another matter. From Jayn's point of view Karine and Alan were being very disrespectful of her and her time to play with these special friends. I do not think accepting such behavior is a reasonable requirement to make of Jayn.
I am NOT at all willing to tell her that "asking for her space" (her expression tonight that she tells me she learnt from you) to play alone with her guests is "not an option". I WILL coach her to be less reactive and kinder in her expression, BUT she has every right to play with only her visitors regardless of whether your kids know them or have spent time with them earlier (as do A... and K.... when they have guests). "
Help! I need some perspective, or better words or something. I'm really struggling with trying to see her point of view. I think I believe that I should do so, that I should be reasonable, that I should give her my assumption of good intentions. I also feel like I have done this so often, so greatly and let so much slide that I am close to fed up with the whole relationship. I do know that I will want to be extra vigilant during any imminent interactions between Jayn and our neighbors, especially the boy, because historically there has often been a little bit of underhanded revenge nastiness, usually verbal, sometimes physical (like the mean spirited hand circling) - and I have seen Jayn just look baffled since this kind of thing goes right past her.
Pam, one of the reasons I am so willing to drive all the way to Dragontree, aside from the delight of seeing you and the soul's joy of just being around other lovely unschoolers, is that I am almost entirely unlikely to meet up with these neighbors there. That is not the case with any of the other park days that are more local to me.
Every time it's a problem with neighbors...it must be me. Is it me? Does it count that James can't stand 'em? Solving the social stuff with unschoolers never seems to be this hard or fear inducing. Makes me want to move to a cave somewhere....
Thanks for listening.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
Some things stood out to me in the descriptions of the neighbors.
I don't know who the "friends" are in your opening sentence, but it doesn't
seem like it's the neighbors. I wasn't clear what you meant.
Just because people are obnoxious and icky with the "mindful" speak, that
doesn't negate the fact that they may be suffering from a lack of social
interaction which to *them* is inexplicable. It reminds me of school.
Those who weren't popular copied those who were popular and generally made
themselves a pain to be around. Sounds like the relationship the neighbor
mom has with her kids is crappy and adversarial. Maybe she thinks Jayn's
peaceful relationship with her parents is a fluke.
I think your point that the neighbor throws out the children's toys, for
whatever reason, and they then want to play with Jayn's toys is sad.
Anyway, as annoying as they must be, it looks unhappy for them no matter
what. I hope it changes at some point in the future for the better.
Now what you can do about the discomfort and the "neighborly" antics, I
don't know. Not much help here.
~Katherine
I don't know who the "friends" are in your opening sentence, but it doesn't
seem like it's the neighbors. I wasn't clear what you meant.
Just because people are obnoxious and icky with the "mindful" speak, that
doesn't negate the fact that they may be suffering from a lack of social
interaction which to *them* is inexplicable. It reminds me of school.
Those who weren't popular copied those who were popular and generally made
themselves a pain to be around. Sounds like the relationship the neighbor
mom has with her kids is crappy and adversarial. Maybe she thinks Jayn's
peaceful relationship with her parents is a fluke.
I think your point that the neighbor throws out the children's toys, for
whatever reason, and they then want to play with Jayn's toys is sad.
Anyway, as annoying as they must be, it looks unhappy for them no matter
what. I hope it changes at some point in the future for the better.
Now what you can do about the discomfort and the "neighborly" antics, I
don't know. Not much help here.
~Katherine
On 10/10/08, Robyn L. Coburn <dezigna@...> wrote:
> It seems like it's always friends. The only time I have strain or pain
with Jayn, it is some issue to do with friends. It is hard to live in
apartments with common areas that everyone has rights to. It's hard to have
neighbors that are inescapable.
>
> Today Jayn had two lovely sisters come over to swim and play. As it turns
out, they had spent the morning in a class with our neighbors. We live in a
big city, but with a small homeschooling community, so it is reasonable to
think that there will be many common acquaintances.
>
> After a while our neighbor's little girl decided to join Jayn and her
friends in their game uninvited, and Jayn didn't want her to. Now I know
that the pool and courtyard is a common area. They have the right to use
that area, and I said so to Jayn. But Jayn asked for her space. She didn't
want them muscling in on her playdate and changing the dynamic. Of course
the little girl was sad and disappointed and her brother was angry on her
behalf.
>
> A little while later the other two did come and swim and they all played
together for a while. And it did change the dynamic, and Jayn coped with it,
using some of her coping mechanisms like getting loud and clowning around,
until they went inside. But not before I saw the boy making nasty visual
jokes at Jayn's expense with her friends - like "she's crazy" hand circles
when she wasn't looking.
>
> So it seemed like it had all sorted out, then I got an email from my
neighbor saying that Jayn had been "inconsiderate and disrespectful" by
saying she did not want K. joining their game. She tried to say it in a
pleading way, and K. didn't ask if she could play, she just showed up with
an expectation because her mom had told her she could join them.
>
> Here's the quote:
>
> "I think this is inconsiderate and dis-respectful to ask my children to
not interact with kids that we happened to have spent the entire morning
with at a nature class simply because Jayn wishes so. I hope that you can
help make this clear to Jayn that these kinds of requests are simply not an
option."
>
> Now these were kids that Jayn and I had invited for the purpose of
playing with Jayn. Simply because Jayn wishes so should be enough, and how
they spent their morning is nothing to do with me. I don't invite children
to play at our house, give them lots of snacks and food, help them with all
kinds of toys and costumes, and watch their plays, for any other purpose
than for Jayn to play with them. These girls love coming here, and this is
the first time I realized that they even knew our neighbors at all. Here's
an analogy: It's like a lady went to lunch with a colleague yesterday, so
she should feel free to join him and his date when she notices him by chance
at the same neighborhood eatery.
>
> The history of that family is one of self first, last and always. I've
seen their behavior in museums. If I started saying that her children
couldn't make requests of Jayn, (and they are often brusque and demanding
IMO), if I used that "not an option" language the other woman would be
outraged. Her children's feelings are all that matters in public situations
or private ones.
>
> There have been a couple of times in the past when James and Jayn have
been playing in the pool (which is not a real big one btw) and they have
come home from somewhere and immediately announced that they are going
swimming - as is their right. Jayn has really sweetly asked if they would
mind waiting just a little while so that she can finish swimming alone with
her dad (which is never long because James get cold and earachey pretty
fast) but they have said no, and refused, and been totally backed up by
their parents - with a lot of jargon thrown around. Yes it was their right
to use the pool, but it isn't kind, or neighborly, or considerate.
>
> And I find it really annoying that she can appear to be so reasonable and
open to negotiate, but I have come to the conclusion that she is using the
language of mindful parenting, the jargon of it, as a means of exerting
control. There is a hypocrisy there, a two facedness - and her kids are
sneakier, and more aggressive than she ever likes to admit. I have the
emails to prove that last point.
>
> When Jayn plays with them she always comes back changed for while, more
beligerent, more demanding, more cranky, not relaxed or joyful, as she
recovers from being in a very rule bound home - but always expressed *as if*
the children had a choice even though they really don't. However having been
through the difference (in Jayn's response and recovery) between merely
not-very-nice kids and a truly toxic personality, I have been trying to help
Jayn keep the relationship alive. Jayn likes these kids, although less than
she used to as she gradually sees more kindly people. This is the same mom
who I posted about recently who wasn't willing to be a visual presence. I
feel like I am sliding into one of those nasty situations, again like I
posted about recently - the temptation to let the relationship implode.
>
> These kids have a lot of suppressed anger I think. They come to our house
to use Jayn's things. Their mom regularly purges their toys to the Goodwill,
so that even 6 months after giving a carefully thought out gift for a
birthday, it's gone. Yes I feel a bit resentful. And then they are coming to
our house to use Jayn's similar toys. I think Jayn is beginning to see that
a lot of it is a one way street.
>
> I hate confrontation. I hate it,hate it, hate it.I hate feeling afraid
and embarrassed. I feel like moving out tomorrow but we can't afford to do
so. The reason I would want to remain cordial is because Jayn still
considers these two to be her friends. I have fantasies about screaming
"keep your horrible children away from my daughter".
>
> My neighbor's wish is that I lay down some rules to Jayn about
suppressing her own desires. I think the whole sadness could have been
avoided if the mom had been a bit more circumspect, as I am with Jayn when
they have guests, and said something like what I have said, "It looks like A
& K are busy with some visitors.Let's wait and play later." Or just said
"Hi" in passing. Or come out herself and checked with Jayn before
encouraging K to come out. Or maybe, possibly spent a single minute talking
about being kind to our neighbors, instead of insisting on "rights". It is
true that sometimes I have had a battle to bring Jayn in from the balcony,
when she is not welcome to play (and I guess it's ok for *her* kids to tell
Jayn "you can't play with me and my friend" but not ok for mine to feel the
same way.) But I do it, and sometimes I even take her out rather than have
her suffer from watching, or let her be intrusive.
>
> Jayn *needs* these one- or two-on-one playdates. Groups and park days are
only part of the picture. Should she be required to share her friends when
they come over?
>
> I have suggested that I arrange future playdates for times when they will
be out anyway, if it is possible, but I have not heard back yet. Here is
part of my response, directly in response to the above quote (feeling
outraged at the hyporcrisy of that is hard to get past):
>
> "I agree that the pool is a communal space, and I have expressed that to
Jayn. Indeed I was saying so again from the balcony at the time, but I don't
think you heard me.
>
> However muscling in on Jayn's playdate and changing the dynamic, just
because you happen to know the visitors from another place is another
matter. From Jayn's point of view Karine and Alan were being very
disrespectful of her and her time to play with these special friends. I do
not think accepting such behavior is a reasonable requirement to make of
Jayn.
>
> I am NOT at all willing to tell her that "asking for her space" (her
expression tonight that she tells me she learnt from you) to play alone with
her guests is "not an option". I WILL coach her to be less reactive and
kinder in her expression, BUT she has every right to play with only her
visitors regardless of whether your kids know them or have spent time with
them earlier (as do A... and K.... when they have guests). "
>
> Help! I need some perspective, or better words or something. I'm really
struggling with trying to see her point of view. I think I believe that I
should do so, that I should be reasonable, that I should give her my
assumption of good intentions. I also feel like I have done this so often,
so greatly and let so much slide that I am close to fed up with the whole
relationship. I do know that I will want to be extra vigilant during any
imminent interactions between Jayn and our neighbors, especially the boy,
because historically there has often been a little bit of underhanded
revenge nastiness, usually verbal, sometimes physical (like the mean
spirited hand circling) - and I have seen Jayn just look baffled since this
kind of thing goes right past her.
>
> Pam, one of the reasons I am so willing to drive all the way to
Dragontree, aside from the delight of seeing you and the soul's joy of just
being around other lovely unschoolers, is that I am almost entirely unlikely
to meet up with these neighbors there. That is not the case with any of the
other park days that are more local to me.
>
> Every time it's a problem with neighbors...it must be me. Is it me? Does
it count that James can't stand 'em? Solving the social stuff with
unschoolers never seems to be this hard or fear inducing. Makes me want to
move to a cave somewhere....
>
> Thanks for listening.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<<Sounds like the relationship the neighbor
unschooling parents I admire. I've made her sound worse than she is.
I don't think she sees herself as adversarial. She *is* good at helping her
children negotiate and goes to great lengths to do the "repeat and validate"
thing with them. (To the point that it seems ridiculous and the conversation
about who was going to have the blue cup could have ended already, but
that's the judgment of a grumpy, tired, anxious woman who feels trapped -
ie me - so it may be leaning a bit). Her children only - that's the point.
I do have an example of the jargon use from yesterday though. And I think it
brings up an interesting unschooling idea.
Yesterday K. & A. were playing and their mom called out, "K...do you want to
go to gymnastics today?" She had mentioned earlier that they intended to go
at 5pm. K was in the middle of a game and said, "No. I don't want to." Mom
immediately called her to come down and talk to her, and after a few minutes
listing all the important reasons why she should "choose" to go, K called
out to Jayn, "Bye Jayn, I'm going to gymnastics."
Now I understand that there may have been important reasons for K. to get to
her class. However in that situation the honest and straightforward thing to
do is say, "It's time to go to gymnastics."
If the answer can't be "no", don't phrase it as a question.
If you are giving no choice, don't pretend that there is choice.
If you offer a choice, accept the answer.
If it were Jayn, I would say, "It's time to leave for gymnastics" and she
would feel free to say "I don't want to go today". And then I might say,
"Well you'll miss out on thus and such but if you're sure.." Usually I know
that Jayn will, knowing she is making a true choice, a few minutes later
say, "can we go now?"
<<<<< I think your point that the neighbor throws out the children's toys,
for
and stuff, even brand new stuff, even gifts. Part of it is that evidently
no-one is helping them find all their gear when they leave parks or events.
But James noticed that they never seem to be upset about losing their things
and suggested to me that maybe they refuse to get attached to anything and
let the items go because they know they will have to give them up to charity
before long. I wonder.
These kids don't seem sad. They seem a little angry and just a little
sneaky/watchful some of the time.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
> mom has with her kids is crappy and adversarial>>>>Maybe only in comparison to the glowing true peace that emanates from the
unschooling parents I admire. I've made her sound worse than she is.
I don't think she sees herself as adversarial. She *is* good at helping her
children negotiate and goes to great lengths to do the "repeat and validate"
thing with them. (To the point that it seems ridiculous and the conversation
about who was going to have the blue cup could have ended already, but
that's the judgment of a grumpy, tired, anxious woman who feels trapped -
ie me - so it may be leaning a bit). Her children only - that's the point.
I do have an example of the jargon use from yesterday though. And I think it
brings up an interesting unschooling idea.
Yesterday K. & A. were playing and their mom called out, "K...do you want to
go to gymnastics today?" She had mentioned earlier that they intended to go
at 5pm. K was in the middle of a game and said, "No. I don't want to." Mom
immediately called her to come down and talk to her, and after a few minutes
listing all the important reasons why she should "choose" to go, K called
out to Jayn, "Bye Jayn, I'm going to gymnastics."
Now I understand that there may have been important reasons for K. to get to
her class. However in that situation the honest and straightforward thing to
do is say, "It's time to go to gymnastics."
If the answer can't be "no", don't phrase it as a question.
If you are giving no choice, don't pretend that there is choice.
If you offer a choice, accept the answer.
If it were Jayn, I would say, "It's time to leave for gymnastics" and she
would feel free to say "I don't want to go today". And then I might say,
"Well you'll miss out on thus and such but if you're sure.." Usually I know
that Jayn will, knowing she is making a true choice, a few minutes later
say, "can we go now?"
<<<<< I think your point that the neighbor throws out the children's toys,
for
> whatever reason, and they then want to play with Jayn's toys is sad. >>>>James just made an interesting point. These two kids are always losing toys
and stuff, even brand new stuff, even gifts. Part of it is that evidently
no-one is helping them find all their gear when they leave parks or events.
But James noticed that they never seem to be upset about losing their things
and suggested to me that maybe they refuse to get attached to anything and
let the items go because they know they will have to give them up to charity
before long. I wonder.
These kids don't seem sad. They seem a little angry and just a little
sneaky/watchful some of the time.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
Sandra Dodd
-=-These two kids are always losing toys
and stuff, even brand new stuff, even gifts. Part of it is that
evidently
no-one is helping them find all their gear when they leave parks or
events.
But James noticed that they never seem to be upset about losing their
things
and suggested to me that maybe they refuse to get attached to
anything and
let the items go because they know they will have to give them up to
charity
before long. I wonder.-=-
I've seen kids be that way, for what seems to be those reasons.
Maybe just as some people are genetically packrats (it seems) some
really aren't attached to stuff.
About the problem with the neighbors, my strongest thought was not to
take guests back to your place, but to go somewhere else where the
neighbors can't see you at all. A public pool or another park or
somewhere they can run around and play but not be seeming (to the
neighbors) to flaunt their "you can't play" time.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and stuff, even brand new stuff, even gifts. Part of it is that
evidently
no-one is helping them find all their gear when they leave parks or
events.
But James noticed that they never seem to be upset about losing their
things
and suggested to me that maybe they refuse to get attached to
anything and
let the items go because they know they will have to give them up to
charity
before long. I wonder.-=-
I've seen kids be that way, for what seems to be those reasons.
Maybe just as some people are genetically packrats (it seems) some
really aren't attached to stuff.
About the problem with the neighbors, my strongest thought was not to
take guests back to your place, but to go somewhere else where the
neighbors can't see you at all. A public pool or another park or
somewhere they can run around and play but not be seeming (to the
neighbors) to flaunt their "you can't play" time.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
> <<<<< I think your point that the neighbor throws out the children'stoys, for
> > whatever reason, and they then want to play with Jayn's toys is sad.toys
>>>>
>
> James just made an interesting point. These two kids are always losing
> and stuff, even brand new stuff, even gifts. Part of it is that evidentlyevents.
> no-one is helping them find all their gear when they leave parks or
> But James noticed that they never seem to be upset about losing theirthings
> and suggested to me that maybe they refuse to get attached to anythingand
> let the items go because they know they will have to give them up tocharity
> before long. I wonder.If it's anything like what I grew up with, and I didn't have this extent of
>
> These kids don't seem sad. They seem a little angry and just a little
> sneaky/watchful some of the time.
losing stuff that the neighbor kids you're talking about seem to be having,
being sad and mournful about it was totally unacceptable. For one thing,
material things were (in the religious sense) not to become attached to.
I'm wondering if perhaps the cavalier attitude toward throwing some of
things was related to this. I bet it was to some degree.
Tears in general were shushed quickly and usually with anger, force or some
other aggressive tactic. Displays of sadness weren't tolerated. But
*anger* was seen as set apart and uncontrollable and therefore somehow
allowable to some degree (at least covertly) even if it wasn't any fun for
others.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<<> About the problem with the neighbors, my strongest thought was not to
suppose that is the kind of thought they would have. I have no way of
knowing (yet) when they will be here or not when I make the date a week in
advance. We have had four wonderful playdates with the same girls when my
neighbors were out for the day, which I am still hoping will be the best
solution.
It's not at all simple to go to a public pool, although not impossible. Most
of the nearish municipal ones are already closed for the winter, and the
YMCA costs money and has very limited time family swims during the week -
like an hour and a half. Luckily in a few weeks using the pool won't be part
of the equation, and I am certainly willing to say, "I'm sorry Jayn has
guests right now" at my own front door, and encourage them to stay inside. I
am going to see if they would be willing to not swim at all, and to play
inside.
It's not as simple as meeting at a park, and they do meet up at a park once
a week after dance class. At our house, in addition to swimming, they watch
dvd's, make up plays, do dress up, play dolls, do coloring, eat - and by the
way these are the first drop off playdates that I have been emotionally able
to do - and they haven't been disasters. I can't, just can't (hear my
panic), supervise all three at a public pool or park without the other mom
(who also has a four year old son, and seems to be really loving the
arrangement).
I'm crying now because to please someone who wouldn't have a moments pause
telling Jayn she can't join them if they have visitors, and has repeatedly
spoken to her harshly when she has knocked at their door, used mean words to
Jayn that she would never think of using to her own kids, whose kids have
been cruel enough to make her cry, I would have to totally destroy something
really special that my daughter and her two girl friends have started to
treasure. They hate to leave, they can't wait to come back, they want to do
a slumber party without the sleepover. I was so happy that finally Jayn was
reaching out to some newer, nicer friends, and so delighted with how much
fun they were having in the water and out, how many interests they seem to
share. I've loved listening to how they plan their next game, how they
listen to each other and negotiate and are willing to be generous with each
other. They've been happy yet quiet even in the pool - when the neighbor
kids are in the water, other neighbors complain about the level of ruckus.
There haven't been any pushing "games" (thinly veneered aggression outlets),
or roughhousing, or falling over incidents which are all too common with the
A & K around the pool. All of these wonders have happened because it has
been just them without the distractions and demands of a larger group or the
lengthy onerous rules of public pools.
I have seen these neighbor kids in our house ignore Jayn in order to play
her x-box and her nintendo, and tell her she can't use a particular doll
because they want it, and carry toys to under the table and arrange the
pillows so that she can't fit in the fort. And she is so extremely generous
and usually says OK to their requests and gives them her candies and offers
them cupcakes and tells me to save some cookies for them and constantly is
on the lookout for stuffed toys or other things they might like and wants me
to get them as gifts. I made a rule, as distasteful as it was, that Jayn
didn't leave any toys down there overnight, because if she did they would
declare that they owned them when she came to collect them. Instead of just
saying, "No that's Jayn's" (and you know they have few toys so it's not like
the doll is disappearing in a crowd of similar items) their mom would lead
them in a long sing-songy "what do you remember..." which tended to be
filled with, let's just say fantasies of wishful thinking. Everyone's
"opinion" is to be given equal weight, even when it is plainly in contrast
to the observed facts or her certain knowledge. While Jayn stands there
crying because K. won't hand the doll back. I also learnt to put Jayn's
initials on everything.
And when it's the next playdate with some other child?
My neighbor goes to all the local park days, even the unschooling one. She
and her kids are likely to know or recognize almost everyone we know. That
can't be a good enough reason why Jayn should be forced to share something,
sharing that amounts to giving it up completely.
And it's not like it's constant. Remember we spend over one third of our
time on nights, when we are not using the pool at all, and not having any
visitors. The other kids have free reign over the pool and courtyard then,
and we don't even know about it. They can't let us have it three or maybe
four afternoons over the course five weeks?
I know I can't control this, but I just wish the mom would act to help her
kids feel better and maybe distract or explain, and not tell me that Jayn
has to be ordered to let them "spoil" (in Jayn's words) her playdate.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
> take guests back to your place, but to go somewhere else where theIt's hard for me to hear that Jayn was flaunting her playdates, but I
> neighbors can't see you at all. A public pool or another park or
> somewhere they can run around and play but not be seeming (to the
> neighbors) to flaunt their "you can't play" time. >>>>
suppose that is the kind of thought they would have. I have no way of
knowing (yet) when they will be here or not when I make the date a week in
advance. We have had four wonderful playdates with the same girls when my
neighbors were out for the day, which I am still hoping will be the best
solution.
It's not at all simple to go to a public pool, although not impossible. Most
of the nearish municipal ones are already closed for the winter, and the
YMCA costs money and has very limited time family swims during the week -
like an hour and a half. Luckily in a few weeks using the pool won't be part
of the equation, and I am certainly willing to say, "I'm sorry Jayn has
guests right now" at my own front door, and encourage them to stay inside. I
am going to see if they would be willing to not swim at all, and to play
inside.
It's not as simple as meeting at a park, and they do meet up at a park once
a week after dance class. At our house, in addition to swimming, they watch
dvd's, make up plays, do dress up, play dolls, do coloring, eat - and by the
way these are the first drop off playdates that I have been emotionally able
to do - and they haven't been disasters. I can't, just can't (hear my
panic), supervise all three at a public pool or park without the other mom
(who also has a four year old son, and seems to be really loving the
arrangement).
I'm crying now because to please someone who wouldn't have a moments pause
telling Jayn she can't join them if they have visitors, and has repeatedly
spoken to her harshly when she has knocked at their door, used mean words to
Jayn that she would never think of using to her own kids, whose kids have
been cruel enough to make her cry, I would have to totally destroy something
really special that my daughter and her two girl friends have started to
treasure. They hate to leave, they can't wait to come back, they want to do
a slumber party without the sleepover. I was so happy that finally Jayn was
reaching out to some newer, nicer friends, and so delighted with how much
fun they were having in the water and out, how many interests they seem to
share. I've loved listening to how they plan their next game, how they
listen to each other and negotiate and are willing to be generous with each
other. They've been happy yet quiet even in the pool - when the neighbor
kids are in the water, other neighbors complain about the level of ruckus.
There haven't been any pushing "games" (thinly veneered aggression outlets),
or roughhousing, or falling over incidents which are all too common with the
A & K around the pool. All of these wonders have happened because it has
been just them without the distractions and demands of a larger group or the
lengthy onerous rules of public pools.
I have seen these neighbor kids in our house ignore Jayn in order to play
her x-box and her nintendo, and tell her she can't use a particular doll
because they want it, and carry toys to under the table and arrange the
pillows so that she can't fit in the fort. And she is so extremely generous
and usually says OK to their requests and gives them her candies and offers
them cupcakes and tells me to save some cookies for them and constantly is
on the lookout for stuffed toys or other things they might like and wants me
to get them as gifts. I made a rule, as distasteful as it was, that Jayn
didn't leave any toys down there overnight, because if she did they would
declare that they owned them when she came to collect them. Instead of just
saying, "No that's Jayn's" (and you know they have few toys so it's not like
the doll is disappearing in a crowd of similar items) their mom would lead
them in a long sing-songy "what do you remember..." which tended to be
filled with, let's just say fantasies of wishful thinking. Everyone's
"opinion" is to be given equal weight, even when it is plainly in contrast
to the observed facts or her certain knowledge. While Jayn stands there
crying because K. won't hand the doll back. I also learnt to put Jayn's
initials on everything.
And when it's the next playdate with some other child?
My neighbor goes to all the local park days, even the unschooling one. She
and her kids are likely to know or recognize almost everyone we know. That
can't be a good enough reason why Jayn should be forced to share something,
sharing that amounts to giving it up completely.
And it's not like it's constant. Remember we spend over one third of our
time on nights, when we are not using the pool at all, and not having any
visitors. The other kids have free reign over the pool and courtyard then,
and we don't even know about it. They can't let us have it three or maybe
four afternoons over the course five weeks?
I know I can't control this, but I just wish the mom would act to help her
kids feel better and maybe distract or explain, and not tell me that Jayn
has to be ordered to let them "spoil" (in Jayn's words) her playdate.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
Sandra Dodd
-=-Instead of just
saying, "No that's Jayn's" (and you know they have few toys so it's
not like
the doll is disappearing in a crowd of similar items) their mom would
lead
them in a long sing-songy "what do you remember..." which tended to be
filled with, let's just say fantasies of wishful thinking. Everyone's
"opinion" is to be given equal weight, even when it is plainly in
contrast
to the observed facts or her certain knowledge.-=-
Oh, I hate moms like that. Just yesterday I was thinking about a box
my mom had had since she was little. A wooden box, painted black.
Plain pine, about a 14" cube with a hinged lid.
I left it in the orchard one day and the neighbors stole it. A
little girl said her brother had it under his bed. My cousin and I
got brave enough to go and knock on their door.
I did feel sorry for that family. Three or four kids in a two or
three room adobe house with their parents, no toys that I ever knew
of. I asked the mom to check and see if he had a black wooden box
under his bed. She came back and said "Yes, but he says it's
his." Huh. I was nine years old or so, and probably argued a bit
and then gave up. My parents should have gone and gotten it, but I
guess my mom was afraid of confrontation with neighbors (afraid they
might do worse than steal a box) or something.
Robyn, as you and the other mom have mutual friends, maybe you could
ask one or two of them to be witness and assistants, maybe, in a
discussion of the problem. If you state your concerns to her in
person with a witness of your choosing and one of hers, it's possible
that good and sensible things will be said and boundaries
established. I'd be glad to offer to be one of the people if I were
nearer.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
saying, "No that's Jayn's" (and you know they have few toys so it's
not like
the doll is disappearing in a crowd of similar items) their mom would
lead
them in a long sing-songy "what do you remember..." which tended to be
filled with, let's just say fantasies of wishful thinking. Everyone's
"opinion" is to be given equal weight, even when it is plainly in
contrast
to the observed facts or her certain knowledge.-=-
Oh, I hate moms like that. Just yesterday I was thinking about a box
my mom had had since she was little. A wooden box, painted black.
Plain pine, about a 14" cube with a hinged lid.
I left it in the orchard one day and the neighbors stole it. A
little girl said her brother had it under his bed. My cousin and I
got brave enough to go and knock on their door.
I did feel sorry for that family. Three or four kids in a two or
three room adobe house with their parents, no toys that I ever knew
of. I asked the mom to check and see if he had a black wooden box
under his bed. She came back and said "Yes, but he says it's
his." Huh. I was nine years old or so, and probably argued a bit
and then gave up. My parents should have gone and gotten it, but I
guess my mom was afraid of confrontation with neighbors (afraid they
might do worse than steal a box) or something.
Robyn, as you and the other mom have mutual friends, maybe you could
ask one or two of them to be witness and assistants, maybe, in a
discussion of the problem. If you state your concerns to her in
person with a witness of your choosing and one of hers, it's possible
that good and sensible things will be said and boundaries
established. I'd be glad to offer to be one of the people if I were
nearer.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
Linnaea has a friend who has an older sister, well a couple of older sisters, but one in particular who often wants to come over. I regularly say no. Largely because Linnaea doesn't like this girl very much. She doesn't dislike her, and they can play well together, but Linnaea can get frustrated playing with her fairly quickly and a 6 hour playdate is much longer than she can sustain. Anyhow, when she does come over I tend to be the backup companion. I make sure I am there to be the friend and playmate to this older sister when I can see that Linnaea is ready to move away from playing with her. I have to be prepared to do that when I commit to having Linnaea's friend and her sister over. It may be that part of your commitment to having friends over for Jayn is to run distraction for these neighbors. Particularly as Jayn wants to remain friends with the neighbors.
Are there ways that you could circumvent their approach so that they didn't make it into the circle of activity? Are there things you can have as a "just in case" that would be interesting and engaging that you could do with the neighbor kids so that Jayn could get on and play with her guests? Could you time indoor activities for the moment when you see the neighbors approaching so that you could call Jayn and her guests in before any potentially negative interaction occurs? Y'know things like calling them in for a snack or a movie or something, and talk it over with Jayn beforehand so that she might be more willing to exchange the pool for coming indoors when her play with these friends is going to be infringed upon by her neighbors.
Schuyler
http://www.waynforth.blogspot.com
--------
It seems like it's always friends. The only time I have strain or pain with Jayn, it is some issue to do with friends. It is hard to live in apartments with common areas that everyone has rights to. It's hard to have neighbors that are inescapable.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Are there ways that you could circumvent their approach so that they didn't make it into the circle of activity? Are there things you can have as a "just in case" that would be interesting and engaging that you could do with the neighbor kids so that Jayn could get on and play with her guests? Could you time indoor activities for the moment when you see the neighbors approaching so that you could call Jayn and her guests in before any potentially negative interaction occurs? Y'know things like calling them in for a snack or a movie or something, and talk it over with Jayn beforehand so that she might be more willing to exchange the pool for coming indoors when her play with these friends is going to be infringed upon by her neighbors.
Schuyler
http://www.waynforth.blogspot.com
--------
It seems like it's always friends. The only time I have strain or pain with Jayn, it is some issue to do with friends. It is hard to live in apartments with common areas that everyone has rights to. It's hard to have neighbors that are inescapable.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
I don't have any one particular thing to quote and write about directly,
so here goes...
I know exactly the kind of family dynamic you are refering to. We have
one of those in our neighborhood right now. The girls are Margaux's
age, but Margaux won't have anything to do with them.
We have a LOT of kids in our cul-de-sac right now that are all around
Margaux's age and they all seem to play with these two girls.
Margaux's reason for not playing with them is because they don't play
nice, they have that typical school playground behavior, taunting,
bullying, and such. On one occasion Margaux and another neighbor girl
were out trying to join their play and were mercilessly taunted and when
they tried to stand up for themselves in their child ways, the kids
tattled on them to their mother who, without having been involved at
all, yelled at Margaux and her friend and gave them that whole "nobody
treats my kids that way" kind of thing.
Margaux's friend lives right across the way from us and knows these
girls from school. She doesn't play with them in school either because
she thinks they are mean. There is an older lady that lives to doors
down from us (we have a very large cul-de-sac sort of thing with three
offshoots off the main one) that watches her grandson on a regular
basis. She's outside a lot doing yardwork and sees and hears everything
in the neighborhood. She absolutely will not let her grandson play with
these girls either because they threatened to kill him when they were
playing. She lets him come play with Margaux though, actually he's a
cute kid who has a little kid crush on her, so I doubt she could keep
him away... but it goes to say that I'm not the only one who observes
this behavior.
I honestly don't know why all the other kids put up with it and all the
other parents seem to be fine with this sort of behavior. Most of them
are no where to be seen though, so I guess they don't know anything
about it. I'm not one of those kind of parents, I like to be present,
at least within earshot of neighborhood outdoor play when my daughter is
out there.
While we were gone last week, we had new neighbors move in that live
right across the way from us that have kids Margaux's age. She was
really excited to come home and meet them, but found out that those
neighbor girls walk them home from school each and every day, so Margaux
won't go out there to meet them. When I tried to encourage her to go
out anyway, just to introduce herself, she said to me, "mom, it's not
worth it, I have one nice friend and I'm fine with only having one!".
So, point taken, but I gave her some things to say to the mean mom, if
she ever did decide to go out and play and got yelled at by her again.
I told her to put her hands on her hips and say loudly and firmly "Do
not talk to me in that manner."
We live in a strange neighborhood. The kids all run around completely
unsupervised and behave badly towards one another and all the other
parents seem fine with this until one of their own kids get hurt and
then they come out of their house all full of fire looking to blame
someone and yell at whatever child "hurt" their kid. I've seen it
happen over and over again, even though some have moved out and others
have moved in, this seems to be the standard mode of operation around
here. I find it disgusting, so I'm glad that Margaux has more self
respect than to put up with it!
The one friend that she has, has an awesome mom, pretty young and
single, so her daughter is a daycare kid who has some of those kind of
obvious traights, but I love the mom anyway, she's by far the most
normal other person in our neighbor in regards to how she wathces and
monitors her daughter and her daughter's friends and actually seems to
care wether or not she's safe and getting along. The kids spend equal
amount of time at each of our houses, which to me is a good sign that
things are cool, because we've had other kids who only want to spend
time at our house because theirs sucks and my kid (I'm more thinking of
Chamille here) thought so too.
I'm all for avoidance of kids and parents like the ones you describe.
Confrontation with that sort of parent never seems to go anywhere.
However, I did like Sandra's idea of having witnesses and a discussion,
although, in reality I wouldn't even begin to know how that would look
since I've never gotten that far with a parent like that.
Here, it is most definitely fall, the air is cold and wet and kids are
staying indoors. Next summer will be more telling! This cul-de-sac has
the most amount of kids than I've ever seen in the 5 yrs that we've
lived here, something like almost every single house has a kid or 2,
most of them elementary school age. There are about 30 houses in this
little weird cul-de-sac.
so here goes...
I know exactly the kind of family dynamic you are refering to. We have
one of those in our neighborhood right now. The girls are Margaux's
age, but Margaux won't have anything to do with them.
We have a LOT of kids in our cul-de-sac right now that are all around
Margaux's age and they all seem to play with these two girls.
Margaux's reason for not playing with them is because they don't play
nice, they have that typical school playground behavior, taunting,
bullying, and such. On one occasion Margaux and another neighbor girl
were out trying to join their play and were mercilessly taunted and when
they tried to stand up for themselves in their child ways, the kids
tattled on them to their mother who, without having been involved at
all, yelled at Margaux and her friend and gave them that whole "nobody
treats my kids that way" kind of thing.
Margaux's friend lives right across the way from us and knows these
girls from school. She doesn't play with them in school either because
she thinks they are mean. There is an older lady that lives to doors
down from us (we have a very large cul-de-sac sort of thing with three
offshoots off the main one) that watches her grandson on a regular
basis. She's outside a lot doing yardwork and sees and hears everything
in the neighborhood. She absolutely will not let her grandson play with
these girls either because they threatened to kill him when they were
playing. She lets him come play with Margaux though, actually he's a
cute kid who has a little kid crush on her, so I doubt she could keep
him away... but it goes to say that I'm not the only one who observes
this behavior.
I honestly don't know why all the other kids put up with it and all the
other parents seem to be fine with this sort of behavior. Most of them
are no where to be seen though, so I guess they don't know anything
about it. I'm not one of those kind of parents, I like to be present,
at least within earshot of neighborhood outdoor play when my daughter is
out there.
While we were gone last week, we had new neighbors move in that live
right across the way from us that have kids Margaux's age. She was
really excited to come home and meet them, but found out that those
neighbor girls walk them home from school each and every day, so Margaux
won't go out there to meet them. When I tried to encourage her to go
out anyway, just to introduce herself, she said to me, "mom, it's not
worth it, I have one nice friend and I'm fine with only having one!".
So, point taken, but I gave her some things to say to the mean mom, if
she ever did decide to go out and play and got yelled at by her again.
I told her to put her hands on her hips and say loudly and firmly "Do
not talk to me in that manner."
We live in a strange neighborhood. The kids all run around completely
unsupervised and behave badly towards one another and all the other
parents seem fine with this until one of their own kids get hurt and
then they come out of their house all full of fire looking to blame
someone and yell at whatever child "hurt" their kid. I've seen it
happen over and over again, even though some have moved out and others
have moved in, this seems to be the standard mode of operation around
here. I find it disgusting, so I'm glad that Margaux has more self
respect than to put up with it!
The one friend that she has, has an awesome mom, pretty young and
single, so her daughter is a daycare kid who has some of those kind of
obvious traights, but I love the mom anyway, she's by far the most
normal other person in our neighbor in regards to how she wathces and
monitors her daughter and her daughter's friends and actually seems to
care wether or not she's safe and getting along. The kids spend equal
amount of time at each of our houses, which to me is a good sign that
things are cool, because we've had other kids who only want to spend
time at our house because theirs sucks and my kid (I'm more thinking of
Chamille here) thought so too.
I'm all for avoidance of kids and parents like the ones you describe.
Confrontation with that sort of parent never seems to go anywhere.
However, I did like Sandra's idea of having witnesses and a discussion,
although, in reality I wouldn't even begin to know how that would look
since I've never gotten that far with a parent like that.
Here, it is most definitely fall, the air is cold and wet and kids are
staying indoors. Next summer will be more telling! This cul-de-sac has
the most amount of kids than I've ever seen in the 5 yrs that we've
lived here, something like almost every single house has a kid or 2,
most of them elementary school age. There are about 30 houses in this
little weird cul-de-sac.
Robyn L. Coburn
I knew it the right thing to do, to come here with my emotionally charged
issue. I never cease to be amazed at the wisdom of the list.
Here again is yet another instance of the extra mile unschooling parents
willingly walk.
<<<<Could you time indoor activities for the moment when you see the
neighbors approaching so that you could call Jayn and her guests in before
any potentially negative interaction occurs? >>>
Schuyler, that sounds like several good ideas. It has been really hard to
get the other girls out of the pool - I suspect they don't get much
swimming. But I will work on that and get their mom on my side too.
The running interference with the other kids - well first I have to get over
my own dislike of them. My brain has seized up with sleeplessness and relief
(I have heard back from the mom in response to my epistle - more below -
oooooh gossip - well not entirely) and right now I can't think of anything
that I could engage with them that would not be equally attractive to Jayn's
friends. Jayn is already frustrated when James gets out his nintendo or
other gadget and the moths fly to his flame. But it is worth some thought.
Sandra, I am quite touched by your offer. I'm not sure who I could ask about
mediating. I have a feeling there would already be a strong anti-Jayn
contingent primed. She fits in with the home schoolers. I so don't. I just
want to have as little connection as humanly possible while maintaining
reasonable politeness. I may have put the kibosh on it.
Nor is it likely to be necessary to seek a mediator, since I have received a
rather backtracking email. Rather like some of the ones we see here when
people try to say, "I didn't say that", but lo there it is in black and
white in the archives....unlike in the past, I am not going to stand by and
let her lie to me about what she intended. After calling Jayn names, I am
not allowing her to deny that she said it, by the simple expedient of
quoting her back to herself. She is also being entirely disingenous about
her dd's intention (not that I used those accusatory words to her), not
realizing that by quoting a conversation she had with K she has revealed her
full knowledge of K's plan to join in, not just exercise her right to swim.
Amongst other stuff I sent this - I think all the BS of the recent past has
caught up with me. This is really approaching the end of the limb stuff for
me.
"Your description of your prepping conversation with Karine show that
you probably suspected there might be some kind of issue. Wouldn't it have
been kinder to Karine, let alone Jayn, for *you* to take the
initiative to check with Jayn and I first? We could been the ones talking it
over, shielding Karine from Jayn's first fear, and then you could have
prepped Karine not to expect to be able to join Jayn, and I could have
reassured Jayn that Karine would not spoil her playdate by going
swimming, so she would have been more welcoming.
When you have visitors these days I make it clear that Jayn must not
try to join in, even though she often has wanted to. I keep Jayn with me and
find stuff to do. Beyond a quick word of hello, I discourage her from
watching. I sometimes even take her out if she seems to want to persist in
lurking on the balcony, in order to protect your kids' playtime from her
intensity. As I said, we are certain to have many common acquaintances, but
that is no reason for anyone to believe they are entitled to an
invitation to play with the other's visitors. I should think that there are
enough disparate ages and interests that the friendships need not
overlap so very much."
Then I just got fed up, and recalling a hundred other slights, which truly I
though I had taken the high road on....and still some interesting
unschooling principles...
"Just to touch on a slightly wider issue, you accuse us of being
inconsiderate. Yes it is true that everyone here has the *Right* to use the
pool at any time, and it is a common area, just like the table and the
barbeque - but there is such a thing as kindness and generosity. We don't
always have to insist upon our rights every time, do we? We can
choose to step aside out of thoughtfulness for others and others' rights,
and say to ourselves, "Well there are some visitors using the pool, and
since it is a relatively rare occurence, I can choose to take the higher
path and allow them to use it undisturbed." I have done that many
times over the years, even before you moved here, and guided Jayn in that
direction, and I know that others of our neighbors have also just refrained
from intruding on someone's private swim, solitary or otherwise.
I am reminded of the time when [her dh] came home quite early in the day
as the sun was high with A... & K..., and Jayn was swimming with her father.
These rare swims are always relatively brief since James gets cold quickly.
A... and K... immediately declared their intention of swimming. Jayn, in
soft, gentle and kind words, as I stood near her, begged, begged
your kids to just let her finish her swim alone with her dad, just for
another 10 minutes until he got out. They refused. [Her dh] backed
them up citing their "right" to swim."
Then I moved on to repeating my request for her to tell me when she is going
to be out, so that maybe I can get in one more swimming playdate before we
go onto nights and the pool goes off at Halloween.
So in the spirit of Mea Culpa... I'm not sure that I have done the right
thing. But gosh I feel better for not taking the appeasement route just
this once.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
issue. I never cease to be amazed at the wisdom of the list.
Here again is yet another instance of the extra mile unschooling parents
willingly walk.
<<<<Could you time indoor activities for the moment when you see the
neighbors approaching so that you could call Jayn and her guests in before
any potentially negative interaction occurs? >>>
Schuyler, that sounds like several good ideas. It has been really hard to
get the other girls out of the pool - I suspect they don't get much
swimming. But I will work on that and get their mom on my side too.
The running interference with the other kids - well first I have to get over
my own dislike of them. My brain has seized up with sleeplessness and relief
(I have heard back from the mom in response to my epistle - more below -
oooooh gossip - well not entirely) and right now I can't think of anything
that I could engage with them that would not be equally attractive to Jayn's
friends. Jayn is already frustrated when James gets out his nintendo or
other gadget and the moths fly to his flame. But it is worth some thought.
Sandra, I am quite touched by your offer. I'm not sure who I could ask about
mediating. I have a feeling there would already be a strong anti-Jayn
contingent primed. She fits in with the home schoolers. I so don't. I just
want to have as little connection as humanly possible while maintaining
reasonable politeness. I may have put the kibosh on it.
Nor is it likely to be necessary to seek a mediator, since I have received a
rather backtracking email. Rather like some of the ones we see here when
people try to say, "I didn't say that", but lo there it is in black and
white in the archives....unlike in the past, I am not going to stand by and
let her lie to me about what she intended. After calling Jayn names, I am
not allowing her to deny that she said it, by the simple expedient of
quoting her back to herself. She is also being entirely disingenous about
her dd's intention (not that I used those accusatory words to her), not
realizing that by quoting a conversation she had with K she has revealed her
full knowledge of K's plan to join in, not just exercise her right to swim.
Amongst other stuff I sent this - I think all the BS of the recent past has
caught up with me. This is really approaching the end of the limb stuff for
me.
"Your description of your prepping conversation with Karine show that
you probably suspected there might be some kind of issue. Wouldn't it have
been kinder to Karine, let alone Jayn, for *you* to take the
initiative to check with Jayn and I first? We could been the ones talking it
over, shielding Karine from Jayn's first fear, and then you could have
prepped Karine not to expect to be able to join Jayn, and I could have
reassured Jayn that Karine would not spoil her playdate by going
swimming, so she would have been more welcoming.
When you have visitors these days I make it clear that Jayn must not
try to join in, even though she often has wanted to. I keep Jayn with me and
find stuff to do. Beyond a quick word of hello, I discourage her from
watching. I sometimes even take her out if she seems to want to persist in
lurking on the balcony, in order to protect your kids' playtime from her
intensity. As I said, we are certain to have many common acquaintances, but
that is no reason for anyone to believe they are entitled to an
invitation to play with the other's visitors. I should think that there are
enough disparate ages and interests that the friendships need not
overlap so very much."
Then I just got fed up, and recalling a hundred other slights, which truly I
though I had taken the high road on....and still some interesting
unschooling principles...
"Just to touch on a slightly wider issue, you accuse us of being
inconsiderate. Yes it is true that everyone here has the *Right* to use the
pool at any time, and it is a common area, just like the table and the
barbeque - but there is such a thing as kindness and generosity. We don't
always have to insist upon our rights every time, do we? We can
choose to step aside out of thoughtfulness for others and others' rights,
and say to ourselves, "Well there are some visitors using the pool, and
since it is a relatively rare occurence, I can choose to take the higher
path and allow them to use it undisturbed." I have done that many
times over the years, even before you moved here, and guided Jayn in that
direction, and I know that others of our neighbors have also just refrained
from intruding on someone's private swim, solitary or otherwise.
I am reminded of the time when [her dh] came home quite early in the day
as the sun was high with A... & K..., and Jayn was swimming with her father.
These rare swims are always relatively brief since James gets cold quickly.
A... and K... immediately declared their intention of swimming. Jayn, in
soft, gentle and kind words, as I stood near her, begged, begged
your kids to just let her finish her swim alone with her dad, just for
another 10 minutes until he got out. They refused. [Her dh] backed
them up citing their "right" to swim."
Then I moved on to repeating my request for her to tell me when she is going
to be out, so that maybe I can get in one more swimming playdate before we
go onto nights and the pool goes off at Halloween.
So in the spirit of Mea Culpa... I'm not sure that I have done the right
thing. But gosh I feel better for not taking the appeasement route just
this once.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Schuyler" <s.waynforth@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Help negotiating with neighbor
Linnaea has a friend who has an older sister, well a couple of older
sisters, but one in particular who often wants to come over. I regularly say
no. Largely because Linnaea doesn't like this girl very much. She doesn't
dislike her, and they can play well together, but Linnaea can get frustrated
playing with her fairly quickly and a 6 hour playdate is much longer than
she can sustain. Anyhow, when she does come over I tend to be the backup
companion. I make sure I am there to be the friend and playmate to this
older sister when I can see that Linnaea is ready to move away from playing
with her. I have to be prepared to do that when I commit to having Linnaea's
friend and her sister over. It may be that part of your commitment to having
friends over for Jayn is to run distraction for these neighbors.
Particularly as Jayn wants to remain friends with the neighbors.
Are there ways that you could circumvent their approach so that they didn't
make it into the circle of activity? Are there things you can have as a
"just in case" that would be interesting and engaging that you could do with
the neighbor kids so that Jayn could get on and play with her guests? Y'know
things like calling them in for a snack or a movie or something, and talk it
over with Jayn beforehand so that she might be more willing to exchange the
pool for coming indoors when her play with these friends is going to be
infringed upon by her neighbors.
Schuyler
http://www.waynforth.blogspot.com
--------
It seems like it's always friends. The only time I have strain or pain with
Jayn, it is some issue to do with friends. It is hard to live in apartments
with common areas that everyone has rights to. It's hard to have neighbors
that are inescapable.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.7.6/1709 - Release Date: 10/5/2008
9:20 AM
Sandra Dodd
-=-However, I did like Sandra's idea of having witnesses and a
discussion,
although, in reality I wouldn't even begin to know how that would look
since I've never gotten that far with a parent like that.-=-
I wouldn't recommend it for strangerish-families in a neighborhood,
but for two families in the same homeschooling group, there might be
other moms with enough social investment in the peace of the group to
help those moms come to a peaceful understanding.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
discussion,
although, in reality I wouldn't even begin to know how that would look
since I've never gotten that far with a parent like that.-=-
I wouldn't recommend it for strangerish-families in a neighborhood,
but for two families in the same homeschooling group, there might be
other moms with enough social investment in the peace of the group to
help those moms come to a peaceful understanding.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn L. Coburn
I am not active in any of the groups though. I'm pretty sure there would be
more strangers there than people I know these days.
(Back to feeling anxious and scared about her possible response to my last
email. What a saga!)
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
<<<< I wouldn't recommend it for strangerish-families in a neighborhood,
more strangers there than people I know these days.
(Back to feeling anxious and scared about her possible response to my last
email. What a saga!)
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
<<<< I wouldn't recommend it for strangerish-families in a neighborhood,
> but for two families in the same homeschooling group, there might be
> other moms with enough social investment in the peace of the group to
> help those moms come to a peaceful understanding.>>>>
Jenny C
> -=-However, I did like Sandra's idea of having witnesses and aThat makes complete sense! I haven't experienced that within a
> discussion,
> although, in reality I wouldn't even begin to know how that would look
> since I've never gotten that far with a parent like that.-=-
>
> I wouldn't recommend it for strangerish-families in a neighborhood,
> but for two families in the same homeschooling group, there might be
> other moms with enough social investment in the peace of the group to
> help those moms come to a peaceful understanding.
>
homeschool group, however, I tend to avoid those for the most part
because Margaux has only wanted to play with me and Chamille hasn't made
any connections with school at home kids, except for when she was in
GS's but there are very specific ways to handle social stuff within that
context!
Next week we've decided to go to a local unschool meet-up. Our very
first ever for Margaux and only because it is something that Margaux
wanted to do when I proposed it to her. There is one person on this
yahoo group that is going too, and so that's cool. Maybe it will be a
whole new cool thing for us! ...and it's unschoolers, not school at
homers.
I'm the eternal optimist! While things do get me down sometimes, I am
always hopefully optimistic about every new thing!
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<< whole new cool thing for us! ...and it's unschoolers, not school at
Dragontree.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
> homers.>>>>Well personally I find it makes a difference. I love the spirit at
Dragontree.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
donnakeeble
--- In [email protected], "Robyn L. Coburn" <dezigna@...>
wrote:
I might try to talk to her face to face as well. Even if you do not
have other moms to help mediate, emails so often lend themselves to be
misinterpreted. If you/she are expecting conflict, disagreement,
discord (not sure what word I am looking for), sometimes it is easy to
find in an email. Then the reader will sit and stew on it rather than
be able to ask for the more immediate feedback or clarification of a
face to face conversation.
If your intention is not to cut off all contact with the neighbor kids
- you have to live near them after all - perhaps you could plan a
special playdate as some sort of peace offering for all 5 of the
children to play and swim together. Perhaps that could ease the hurt
feelings of the neighbor children or perception of them on the part of
your neighbor-mom. That offered at the same time as a request for
some private time on another day may be more well received than a
"when will you not be home so the three girls can play together
without your two bothering them" email - (only meant as one possible
misinterpretation of email correspondence).
Hope you find a peaceful and all around acceptable resolution!!
Donna
wrote:
>would be
> I am not active in any of the groups though. I'm pretty sure there
> more strangers there than people I know these days.my last
>
> (Back to feeling anxious and scared about her possible response to
> email. What a saga!)Hi Robyn,
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
>
I might try to talk to her face to face as well. Even if you do not
have other moms to help mediate, emails so often lend themselves to be
misinterpreted. If you/she are expecting conflict, disagreement,
discord (not sure what word I am looking for), sometimes it is easy to
find in an email. Then the reader will sit and stew on it rather than
be able to ask for the more immediate feedback or clarification of a
face to face conversation.
If your intention is not to cut off all contact with the neighbor kids
- you have to live near them after all - perhaps you could plan a
special playdate as some sort of peace offering for all 5 of the
children to play and swim together. Perhaps that could ease the hurt
feelings of the neighbor children or perception of them on the part of
your neighbor-mom. That offered at the same time as a request for
some private time on another day may be more well received than a
"when will you not be home so the three girls can play together
without your two bothering them" email - (only meant as one possible
misinterpretation of email correspondence).
Hope you find a peaceful and all around acceptable resolution!!
Donna
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<< Perhaps that could ease the hurt
can see that it is very plausible.
Gosh I wish I had posted initially before I made any contact at all!
The kids did all swim together for a while a bit later, btw. Jayn was very
unhappy and struggling to hide it and be funny and lively - but later she
was crying a lot.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
> feelings of the neighbor children or perception of them on the part ofThank you Donna. I hadn't envisaged that particular interpretation, but I
> your neighbor-mom. That offered at the same time as a request for
> some private time on another day may be more well received than a
> "when will you not be home so the three girls can play together
> without your two bothering them" email - (only meant as one possible
> misinterpretation of email correspondence). >>>>
can see that it is very plausible.
Gosh I wish I had posted initially before I made any contact at all!
The kids did all swim together for a while a bit later, btw. Jayn was very
unhappy and struggling to hide it and be funny and lively - but later she
was crying a lot.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com