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In a message dated 11/26/2001 11:06:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, crma@... writes:


I would argue that all of these including gaming can have value.  The
value is just not physical.


And, if you've ever watched the kids in the game store, each with the tape measure out, it even IS partly physical -- there is manual dexterity involved as well as hand-eye coordination. Probably those who have it don't appreciate it - but it is something that is great for a 12 yo boy to be developing - especially those who don't yet write comfortably. I'd sure rather have them developing that sense of distance and hand-eye coordination now, then wait until they're behind the wheel of their first car, for example! <G>

Not that, in my mind, this kind of argument is needed to justify playing the games -- just that they are fun and satisfying to the kid is enough for me, really. I mean, isn't a lot of our own lives a search for things to do that satisfy us? Sheesh - why do we feel anxious when our kids FIND such things?

--pam

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In a message dated 11/27/01 9:15:17 AM Mountain Standard Time, PSoroosh@... writes:


. I'd sure rather have them developing that sense of distance and hand-eye coordination now, then wait until they're behind the wheel of their first car, for example! <G>


OH! I've had that thought in my mind a lot lately, now that Kirby is fifteen and talking about driver's ed.  I have no doubt that he'll be a really good driver, because he's really good at Nintendo games, and he's physically cautious in general.  

As some of you come across and watch the new Nintendo Game Cube game Monkeyball, watch what fine movement is required to go through those mazes.  I watched Kirby and Marty play it the first time they picked it up and thought "This will make them better drivers."  

And before someone snorts and says "That's not real and cars are," I will say that I see them care more about keeping a character on an intricate course than some of the drivers I saw yesterday cared about keeping their car in a lane of traffic!

Sandra

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My oldest (17 tomorrow) has her first behind-the-wheel driving lesson on Thursday morning at 10 am.

I can only WISH she'd been playing Nintendo for years!!!!!

I learned to drive in a simulator -- it was great fun and VERY VERY VERY good. I felt comfortable by the time I was behind the wheel of a real car. I can't believe she's going to get behind the wheel of a car and just DRIIIIIIIIVE!!

Not that I'm nervous --- but AAAAACKKKKKK!!!!!!!

--pam

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but I'm concerned about the creation and manipulation of desire for power.


Maybe it's only an acknowledgement and an exercise in the very REAL desire for power kids have.  If they can have the feeling of power without needing to bully other humans or steal stereos to get it, I say more power to 'em!! <bwg>

Sandra

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In a message dated 11/27/01 11:39:46 AM Mountain Standard Time, ecsamhill@... writes:


Does anyone have insight into where satisfaction at a job well done comes from?  Can it only be destroyed by being a perfectionist, or are there other ways it might be undermined?


That's a topic about the size of the universe, I think.

Different people are more or less affected by others' opinions or expressions.  Some are SO dependent on others' approval that it's considered detrimental (co-dependency).  Some care so little about the opinions of others it's considered pathological (sociopath?).  

Balance.

No sense living your future on an old accomplishment.  "I was a cheerleader!" shouldn't be depended on to take a woman happily into her 40's.

It seems to me those the happiest with their accomplishments are those who were the most realistic about what they hoped to do, what the risk of failure was, who were doing it selflessly and generously, and who plan to try again to do it better another time anyway.  Those who would have been happy with failure too seem to have a healthier happiness with success.

Sandra

KT

My oldest (17 tomorrow) has her first behind-the-wheel driving lesson on Thursday morning at 10 am.

The difference between the big city and the country, I suppose.  I can't imagine anyone having driving lessons around here (except maybe those teens who are forced to go to driver's ed in school because of insurance rates or others who go to avoid a fine or something).  Not that driving lessons aren't NEEDED by some around here.  lol.

We all learned to drive out in the country, as did my teenagers.  When we moved back to Memphis, I was terrified when Jon at 16 wanted to drive the 5 miles to the grocery store--on very busy city streets.  But thought nothing of letting him drive by himself to the little store up the road when he was 14 and still unlicensed.  (No cops, no traffic, no problem. <g>)

They also became much better drivers when they were finally allowed to drive alone for a period of time, in all kinds of circumstances.  I guess my nervousness at their driving was ooking out all over them.  ;)

Tuck

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In a message dated 11/27/01 1:15:37 PM Mountain Standard Time, Tuck@... writes:


The difference between the big city and the country, I suppose.  I can't imagine anyone having driving lessons around here (except maybe those teens who are forced to go to driver's ed in school because of insurance rates or others who go to avoid a fine or something).  Not that driving lessons aren't NEEDED by some around here.  lol.


It was like that in New Mexico when I was learning.  Most didn't take driver's ed.

The laws just lately changed.  There's a three-phase deal up to full license.  Anyone who doesn't want to take driver's ed has to wait until they're 18 (I think; I could be wrong) to take a test.

There are no more learner's permits except the one you get when you sign up for driver's ed. It requires, in addition to the classes, six hours (I think) with the instructor (which replaces the driving-with-a-test-guy which was part of the old licensing procedure), and fifty logged hours with licensed drivers who sign off, and I think ten of those have to be at night, and FULL hours.  That's a lot of driving, just to get past the permit stage.

Then they have provisional.  With a provisional license you can't drive certain hours (midnight to 5:00 a.m.?? something...) and you can only have one person in the car who is not a member of your family.  The way to get to the next stage is to go a year without any citations.  So any ticket on a provision license starts that year over again.

Kirby has more and more driving friends.  They're all really good.  They critique my driving.  I let them.  It's good practice, and it raises my own confidence about their knowledge of the laws and of safety.  ("I didn't see a turn signal," Brett said last week.  "You can't see it from there," I said.  I hadn't used one because there was nobody else in sight and I was turning into my neighborhood, and there was no one to whom I needed to communicate that turn, but driver's ed says use it anyway to keep in the habit.)

Sandra

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In a message dated 11/27/2001 11:23:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, SandraDodd@... writes:


Those who would have been happy with failure too seem to have a healthier happiness with success.


So true. How on earth do people get to be okay with failure? I'm not - I know it. I suffered from perfectionism so badly that I really felt it was messing up my life. So I purposely decided to do some things I knew I'd never be really very good at -- I took up an invitation to join a bowling league after discovering I was really terrible at it. And I started trying to be conscious of choosing to just "muddle through" things occasionally.

By the way, it isn't like I'm Martha Stewart  - I FEEL perfectionistic, but I'm not able to carry it off, by any means. In fact, I screw up pretty badly on many things, but that's because I'm not okay with trying hard and then not being super successful. So my house is a mess because I can't keep it perfect. And so on. I don't have any automatic sense of just doing good enough - I have to make myself be conscious of it.

I can see it in my kids too. I've passed it on. But I don't know how I've done it or how to avoid it.

--pam

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In a message dated 11/27/2001 12:16:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, Tuck@... writes:


The difference between the big city and the country, I suppose.  I can't imagine anyone having driving lessons around here (except maybe those teens who are forced to go to driver's ed in school because of insurance rates or others who go to avoid a fine or something).  Not that driving lessons aren't NEEDED by some around here.  lol.


Its the law. Her permit isn't valid until she has signed up for 6 hours of lessons with a certified (by the dept of motor vehicles) driving instructor. Once she's signed up and had her first lesson, she then can drive with other licensed drivers, to practice. But there is no way for a kid who is under 18 to practice drive (legally) unless they take coursework (driver education) and behind-the-wheel lessons (driver training).

--pam

KT

Her permit isn't valid until she has signed up for 6 hours of lessons with a certified (by the dept of motor vehicles) driving instructor.

Wow, what a racket.  ;)

It amazes me how different things can be from state to state.

Tuck

groundhoggirl

On Tuesday, November 27, 2001, at 05:02 PM, PSoroosh@... wrote:

> In a message dated 11/27/2001 11:23:26 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> SandraDodd@... writes:
>
>
> Those who would have been happy with failure too seem to have a
> healthier happiness with success.
>
>
>
> So true. How on earth do people get to be okay with failure? I'm not -
> I know it. I suffered from perfectionism so badly that I really felt it
> was messing up my life. So I purposely decided to do some things I knew
> I'd never be really very good at -- I took up an invitation to join a
> bowling league after discovering I was really terrible at it. And I
> started trying to be conscious of choosing to just "muddle through"
> things occasionally.
>
> By the way, it isn't like I'm Martha Stewart  - I FEEL perfectionistic,
> but I'm not able to carry it off, by any means. In fact, I screw up
> pretty badly on many things, but that's because I'm not okay with
> trying hard and then not being super successful. So my house is a mess
> because I can't keep it perfect. And so on. I don't have any automatic
> sense of just doing good enough - I have to make myself be conscious of
> it.
>
> I can see it in my kids too. I've passed it on. But I don't know how
> I've done it or how to avoid it.
>
> --pam

Hi Pam,

I know exactly what you're talking about. I have suffered from severe
perfectionism ever since I can remember. I've had several failures in
my life because of it, including flunking out of 2 colleges, one of
which was a very fine Ivy League school. Perfectionism can truly
paralyze you. A bad case of perfectionism along with clinical
depression and very poor self-esteem can really mess you up. I'm 42 now
and I'm much more relaxed. My house is still a total mess, but even
that is getting better too.

As a child I was constantly hearing critical statements like: "If you
can't do it right then don't do it at all." Things like this along with
a whole bunch of other issues I'm sure contributed to my problem with
perfectionism.

With regard to my children, I make sure they understand that mistakes
are a part of learning and I never make a big deal about them. I try
never to criticize them and accept them just the way they are, no matter
what that may be. I guess it's unconditional love and acceptance.

I have found a great site called FLYlady.com

Make sure you check it out. FLY stands for Finally Loving Yourself.
She helps people like us get a handle on the messes in our houses. She
sends you a bunch of e-mails every day giving you little assignments so
that you can clean up your house and get it under control. I'm taking
it very slowly. I'm still a Flybaby, but I see an improvement.

Mimi
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