"the same thing to adults"
Sandra Dodd
-=-You guys are so busy
talking about the freedom and respect you give to your kids, but don't
bother giving the same thing to adults.-=-
That was from
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/38936>
Others have complained over the years (many others? Some others? Do
I know the majority of others on this planet?) that we "claim" to be
nice to our kids, but we're not that nice to people on the list, or
that we are willing to let our kids learn at their own pace but we're
not willing to let people on the list take their sweet and wasteful
time.
For one thing, I can't keep someone from hanging around unschooling
for years and resisting actually relaxing into DOING it wholly and
well. Some people are still in the defensive mode of "You can't
make me," no matter how self-defeating it is, and no matter how much
damage it does to their relationships with their kids to refuse to
even try some of the parenting practices many on this list have used
with good effect for many years. (No, I don't know the majority of
people on this list and I don't know the majority of years in the
history of this planet, not even if there are only 6,000 of them.)
But this list is a discussion of unschooling. It's not a list so
that people can have the opportunity to experiment in dabbling in a
discussion of unschooling. The richness of the ongoing discussion of
unschooling is my reason for maintaining and participating on this list.
My friend Jon Tsosie had a job on a crew building solar houses for a
research project in the 1970's. At Ghost Ranch, they built several
houses that were similar and had somewhat different solar collection
arrangements. Then they were measuring and proving this'n'that,
later on. He learned a lot. He was being paid to work on those
houses. Other people would come by and pay money to learn about
solar heating, and they would work on the houses too, for a while (I
guess there were workshops periodically). So the purpose of the
existence of those houses was... Well, people were going to live in
them. But there was some kind of grant money paid for the results of
the scientific comparisons. And they were being used as educational
demonstrations too, of solar-collection construction.
One project can serve many purposes.
That doesn't mean that one project can serve ALL purposes.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
talking about the freedom and respect you give to your kids, but don't
bother giving the same thing to adults.-=-
That was from
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/38936>
Others have complained over the years (many others? Some others? Do
I know the majority of others on this planet?) that we "claim" to be
nice to our kids, but we're not that nice to people on the list, or
that we are willing to let our kids learn at their own pace but we're
not willing to let people on the list take their sweet and wasteful
time.
For one thing, I can't keep someone from hanging around unschooling
for years and resisting actually relaxing into DOING it wholly and
well. Some people are still in the defensive mode of "You can't
make me," no matter how self-defeating it is, and no matter how much
damage it does to their relationships with their kids to refuse to
even try some of the parenting practices many on this list have used
with good effect for many years. (No, I don't know the majority of
people on this list and I don't know the majority of years in the
history of this planet, not even if there are only 6,000 of them.)
But this list is a discussion of unschooling. It's not a list so
that people can have the opportunity to experiment in dabbling in a
discussion of unschooling. The richness of the ongoing discussion of
unschooling is my reason for maintaining and participating on this list.
My friend Jon Tsosie had a job on a crew building solar houses for a
research project in the 1970's. At Ghost Ranch, they built several
houses that were similar and had somewhat different solar collection
arrangements. Then they were measuring and proving this'n'that,
later on. He learned a lot. He was being paid to work on those
houses. Other people would come by and pay money to learn about
solar heating, and they would work on the houses too, for a while (I
guess there were workshops periodically). So the purpose of the
existence of those houses was... Well, people were going to live in
them. But there was some kind of grant money paid for the results of
the scientific comparisons. And they were being used as educational
demonstrations too, of solar-collection construction.
One project can serve many purposes.
That doesn't mean that one project can serve ALL purposes.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Sep 30, 2008, at 12:57 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
list works. I'd be sure that they understood that we are here to
sharpen up our thinking, to uncover hidden pitfalls in our thinking.
I'd be sure that the kids knew this list is for deeply considering and
critically examining any and all ideas related to unschooling, big or
small, expressed intentionally or not, by anyone. I'd warn them not to
post if they didn't welcome a critical analysis of whatever they said.
AND, most important, I'd tell my kids to wait a few weeks, read a lot,
get used to the list before posting, so that they wouldn't be taken by
surprise and feel attacked when their posts were critically examined
by multiple people.
Gee, apparently I'd say the EXACT same thing to my kids as we
repeatedly tell the adults who come here, voluntarily, and then
complain that we don't give them freedom and respect. What does that
mean, anyway? "Freedom" doesn't even make sense in this context. By
"respect" I think they are complaining that their posts were
critically examined and that potential flaws in their reasoning were
pointed out.
THAT is the way the list works. If that isn't okay with you, don't post.
There are a handful of people who post on some other lists that I'm on
(not this one), whom I have so little respect for that I delete all
their posts without even bothering to read them. But reading a
person's post and thinking about it and carefully analyzing where I
think they might be going wrong in their thinking? That IS respectful
in a big way - that is respecting that the person came here to learn
and wants to hear other opinions and have their own thinking challenged.
-pam
> -=-You guys are so busyIf my kids joined this list, I'd be sure that they understood how the
> talking about the freedom and respect you give to your kids, but don't
> bother giving the same thing to adults.-=-
list works. I'd be sure that they understood that we are here to
sharpen up our thinking, to uncover hidden pitfalls in our thinking.
I'd be sure that the kids knew this list is for deeply considering and
critically examining any and all ideas related to unschooling, big or
small, expressed intentionally or not, by anyone. I'd warn them not to
post if they didn't welcome a critical analysis of whatever they said.
AND, most important, I'd tell my kids to wait a few weeks, read a lot,
get used to the list before posting, so that they wouldn't be taken by
surprise and feel attacked when their posts were critically examined
by multiple people.
Gee, apparently I'd say the EXACT same thing to my kids as we
repeatedly tell the adults who come here, voluntarily, and then
complain that we don't give them freedom and respect. What does that
mean, anyway? "Freedom" doesn't even make sense in this context. By
"respect" I think they are complaining that their posts were
critically examined and that potential flaws in their reasoning were
pointed out.
THAT is the way the list works. If that isn't okay with you, don't post.
There are a handful of people who post on some other lists that I'm on
(not this one), whom I have so little respect for that I delete all
their posts without even bothering to read them. But reading a
person's post and thinking about it and carefully analyzing where I
think they might be going wrong in their thinking? That IS respectful
in a big way - that is respecting that the person came here to learn
and wants to hear other opinions and have their own thinking challenged.
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=-By "respect" I think they are complaining that their posts were
critically examined and that potential flaws in their reasoning were
pointed out.-=-
I think by "respect" they want people to treat their posts as though
the words all made as much sense as any writing ever could, and that
their ideas are as good as any ideas ever had.
I think they want people to be undiscriminating in their blanket
approval and "support."
If all ideas are equal, we don't need this list at all.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
critically examined and that potential flaws in their reasoning were
pointed out.-=-
I think by "respect" they want people to treat their posts as though
the words all made as much sense as any writing ever could, and that
their ideas are as good as any ideas ever had.
I think they want people to be undiscriminating in their blanket
approval and "support."
If all ideas are equal, we don't need this list at all.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-But reading a
person's post and thinking about it and carefully analyzing where I
think they might be going wrong in their thinking? That IS respectful
in a big way --=-
I'm going to dinner tonight, not to eat, but to advise someone on a
project he's undertaking. I invited another person known well to
both of us. I thought the three people would be a good think-tank.
The advisee let me know he's bringing his wife. I don't trust her.
This is a problem.
I have a house full of food. I'm going out to let him feel like he's
compensating me for sharing my experience. Now my decision is how
far to advise. How detailed? How candid? Do I give him $15 worth
of advice and call it even? Or do I give him limitless advice? (I'm
going to play it by ear, and count on the mind-reading abilities of
my co-advisor. It might or might not be a good night for subtle
communication between us.)
I never come to this list thinking "I'll just share a little advice,"
or "I'll throw a crumb and they'll feel like they really got some
good information."
Because the purpose of the list is to really see what helps and hurts
unschooling, I LOVE the reports of successes or of confusing moments
we can dissect and throw ideas toward. I like it when a person
blossoms out a little more than before--when they have an "OH!
That's how it works!" moment. I don't hold back ideas here.
If the list existed so that I would feel like I had shared
unschooling information with people in as minimal a way as necessary,
I wouldn't share so much, but we're amassing ideas and experiences
and I love the gathering and sorting of any kind of data about the
effect of unschooling on people's lives.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
person's post and thinking about it and carefully analyzing where I
think they might be going wrong in their thinking? That IS respectful
in a big way --=-
I'm going to dinner tonight, not to eat, but to advise someone on a
project he's undertaking. I invited another person known well to
both of us. I thought the three people would be a good think-tank.
The advisee let me know he's bringing his wife. I don't trust her.
This is a problem.
I have a house full of food. I'm going out to let him feel like he's
compensating me for sharing my experience. Now my decision is how
far to advise. How detailed? How candid? Do I give him $15 worth
of advice and call it even? Or do I give him limitless advice? (I'm
going to play it by ear, and count on the mind-reading abilities of
my co-advisor. It might or might not be a good night for subtle
communication between us.)
I never come to this list thinking "I'll just share a little advice,"
or "I'll throw a crumb and they'll feel like they really got some
good information."
Because the purpose of the list is to really see what helps and hurts
unschooling, I LOVE the reports of successes or of confusing moments
we can dissect and throw ideas toward. I like it when a person
blossoms out a little more than before--when they have an "OH!
That's how it works!" moment. I don't hold back ideas here.
If the list existed so that I would feel like I had shared
unschooling information with people in as minimal a way as necessary,
I wouldn't share so much, but we're amassing ideas and experiences
and I love the gathering and sorting of any kind of data about the
effect of unschooling on people's lives.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]