a small story of summer and fall
[email protected]
A little long, but you know how stories go.......
A little while ago, Grant and Zach (11 and 8 year old neighbors; schoolish)
came over to play on the trampoline. They chatted a bit with us and
voluntarily talked about their lives. They wanted to have another party here (it's cool
here!) and I said, 'How about a party to celebrate the end of summer, even
though it's officially fall?' I told them that it still feels like summer to me
- weather, harvest, beautiful days and clear nights (awesome Oregon is what
we have here actually). Zach says he can tell when summer ends each year
because then he has HOMEWORK every night and he hates that. I wanted to tell him
that right now, Ahren (my oldest and newly 18) was doing his HOMEWORK because
he wanted to, and choose the community college classes he's taking because he
wanted to know more about those topics in a multi-person environment. BUT I
DIDN'T TELL ZACH THAT. I thought that it might be discouraging and
disheartening. Yet, next time, I think I will tell him what's on my mind, just to give
him another way of thinking about things. Sharing information and really
providing him another approach to think about. Not defaming or judging, just
letting some energy flow out into his world of a view of another way.
Grant, the older one, said his weekends were what he looked forward to,
otherwise is was pretty hard to bare (bear!) (the 5 day school week). He seemed to
have a good attitude about it all: 'I can put up with it cause, at least, I
have the weekend'. I wanted to tell him that our weeks and days are
relatively seamless. If we're interested in something, we do it- doesn't matter if
it's a Tues., Wed. or Fri. or Sun. We make it happen because we seek it. It
seems that Grant's 'can do' space was shrunk to 104 days/year while we get to
access the whole 365 (plus 1/4). On this beautiful, anything is a wonderful day,
I couldn't reveal this particular information, but I will next time.
Information can only serve to enlarge a view point
To think of the limits children accept because of their information base. It
dismays and yet, causes thought :).
So for what remains of today and then the promise of tomorrow, mustn't we all
go forth each day and converse with the children and encourage them and talk
of the hope and possibilities of something new and different? And don't
forget what might happen next!
Susan
**************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial
challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and
calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
A little while ago, Grant and Zach (11 and 8 year old neighbors; schoolish)
came over to play on the trampoline. They chatted a bit with us and
voluntarily talked about their lives. They wanted to have another party here (it's cool
here!) and I said, 'How about a party to celebrate the end of summer, even
though it's officially fall?' I told them that it still feels like summer to me
- weather, harvest, beautiful days and clear nights (awesome Oregon is what
we have here actually). Zach says he can tell when summer ends each year
because then he has HOMEWORK every night and he hates that. I wanted to tell him
that right now, Ahren (my oldest and newly 18) was doing his HOMEWORK because
he wanted to, and choose the community college classes he's taking because he
wanted to know more about those topics in a multi-person environment. BUT I
DIDN'T TELL ZACH THAT. I thought that it might be discouraging and
disheartening. Yet, next time, I think I will tell him what's on my mind, just to give
him another way of thinking about things. Sharing information and really
providing him another approach to think about. Not defaming or judging, just
letting some energy flow out into his world of a view of another way.
Grant, the older one, said his weekends were what he looked forward to,
otherwise is was pretty hard to bare (bear!) (the 5 day school week). He seemed to
have a good attitude about it all: 'I can put up with it cause, at least, I
have the weekend'. I wanted to tell him that our weeks and days are
relatively seamless. If we're interested in something, we do it- doesn't matter if
it's a Tues., Wed. or Fri. or Sun. We make it happen because we seek it. It
seems that Grant's 'can do' space was shrunk to 104 days/year while we get to
access the whole 365 (plus 1/4). On this beautiful, anything is a wonderful day,
I couldn't reveal this particular information, but I will next time.
Information can only serve to enlarge a view point
To think of the limits children accept because of their information base. It
dismays and yet, causes thought :).
So for what remains of today and then the promise of tomorrow, mustn't we all
go forth each day and converse with the children and encourage them and talk
of the hope and possibilities of something new and different? And don't
forget what might happen next!
Susan
**************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial
challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and
calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-So for what remains of today and then the promise of tomorrow,
mustn't we all
go forth each day and converse with the children and encourage them
and talk
of the hope and possibilities of something new and different?-=-
I don't think so. I think it's close to cruel to tell the neighbor
kids your life is better than theirs is.
It doesn't give them hope and promise, it makes them feel more
trapped than they already are.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mustn't we all
go forth each day and converse with the children and encourage them
and talk
of the hope and possibilities of something new and different?-=-
I don't think so. I think it's close to cruel to tell the neighbor
kids your life is better than theirs is.
It doesn't give them hope and promise, it makes them feel more
trapped than they already are.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn L. Coburn
I read the story and had pretty much the same reaction as Sandra, that it
seemed it might make those kids sad to have it pointed out how much they
were missing compared to you. It might make them less keen to spend time
with you, or angry and defensive. I guess I'd wait to be asked before
extolling elements of our free lives to kids who are trapped in school.
I'd be worried that saying in effect "My oldest does his homework because he
*wants* to" could make the boy feel bad about himself, inadequate, because
he clearly doesn't want to. I think you should stick with your first gut
feeling that it might be disheartening.
I'd like to just be an example of an alternate choice to the parents though.
They are the ones who would have to provide different choices to their kids
away from school days.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
<<<<<<> I don't think so. I think it's close to cruel to tell the neighbor
seemed it might make those kids sad to have it pointed out how much they
were missing compared to you. It might make them less keen to spend time
with you, or angry and defensive. I guess I'd wait to be asked before
extolling elements of our free lives to kids who are trapped in school.
I'd be worried that saying in effect "My oldest does his homework because he
*wants* to" could make the boy feel bad about himself, inadequate, because
he clearly doesn't want to. I think you should stick with your first gut
feeling that it might be disheartening.
I'd like to just be an example of an alternate choice to the parents though.
They are the ones who would have to provide different choices to their kids
away from school days.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
<<<<<<> I don't think so. I think it's close to cruel to tell the neighbor
> kids your life is better than theirs is.
>
> It doesn't give them hope and promise, it makes them feel more
> trapped than they already are. >>>>
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'd be worried that saying in effect "My oldest does his homework
because he
*wants* to" could make the boy feel bad about himself, inadequate,
because
he clearly doesn't want to. I think you should stick with your first gut
feeling that it might be disheartening.-=-
Right. Even the neighbors' parents don't want to hear your smug joy.
People on this list will, though. Bring your brags and your relief
where other people have already indicated they want to know about
unschooling, and it will encourage those who want to know. There are
many reasons not to harrass and torment those who don't want to know
or couldn't do it if they did know.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
because he
*wants* to" could make the boy feel bad about himself, inadequate,
because
he clearly doesn't want to. I think you should stick with your first gut
feeling that it might be disheartening.-=-
Right. Even the neighbors' parents don't want to hear your smug joy.
People on this list will, though. Bring your brags and your relief
where other people have already indicated they want to know about
unschooling, and it will encourage those who want to know. There are
many reasons not to harrass and torment those who don't want to know
or couldn't do it if they did know.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<<> To think of the limits children accept because of their information
base. It
internalize, or chafe against, limits because of lack of choices and
disempowerment, because their parents choose that they be limited in all the
conventional ways, such as enforced school attendance. It makes no sense to
tell a kid they could be free from school and have a world of possibilities,
if their parents are then saying, "Oh no mister, you have to go to school
and you have to do your homework and you'd better get a good grade on that
assignment,
or no tv for you on Saturday."
And although there may be some parents still who lack the information that
there
are other ways to raise kids, I believe that most must have heard by now
that other paths like home schooling exist, but just flat don't agree that
these alternates could be better than whatever ordinary way they are living
now. Sadly it so often takes a kid becoming truly miserable and angry and
sometimes physically ill before parents become willing to explore
alternatives. Those looking forward to the weekend/not liking homework
things, even kids saying they don't feel well and can they stay home today,
are considered to be perfectly normal, we-all-went-through-it, kid's
intitiation to "real life" stuff - like having to work 9-5 Mon-Fri.
The kids can be encouraged to talk of hope and possibilities, but if their
parents aren't willing to make a big lifestyle change, it just sounds like
the same old future focussed "any one can be president" business they get in
social studies (?)
class.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
base. It
> dismays and yet, causes thought :). >>>Children don't accept limits because of lack of information. They accept and
internalize, or chafe against, limits because of lack of choices and
disempowerment, because their parents choose that they be limited in all the
conventional ways, such as enforced school attendance. It makes no sense to
tell a kid they could be free from school and have a world of possibilities,
if their parents are then saying, "Oh no mister, you have to go to school
and you have to do your homework and you'd better get a good grade on that
assignment,
or no tv for you on Saturday."
And although there may be some parents still who lack the information that
there
are other ways to raise kids, I believe that most must have heard by now
that other paths like home schooling exist, but just flat don't agree that
these alternates could be better than whatever ordinary way they are living
now. Sadly it so often takes a kid becoming truly miserable and angry and
sometimes physically ill before parents become willing to explore
alternatives. Those looking forward to the weekend/not liking homework
things, even kids saying they don't feel well and can they stay home today,
are considered to be perfectly normal, we-all-went-through-it, kid's
intitiation to "real life" stuff - like having to work 9-5 Mon-Fri.
The kids can be encouraged to talk of hope and possibilities, but if their
parents aren't willing to make a big lifestyle change, it just sounds like
the same old future focussed "any one can be president" business they get in
social studies (?)
class.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
carnationsgalore
> So for what remains of today and then the promise of tomorrow,Susan, I think your heart is in the right place but your method will
> mustn't we all go forth each day and converse with the children
> and encourage them and talk of the hope and possibilities of
> something new and different?
likely backfire. I know several kids that are schooled and they really
enjoy hanging out at my house where our lifestyle is different. I
share as much as I can with these kids knowing that they are observing
and questioning. However, I never talk down their situations. That
makes them powerless. Instead, we talk about how they can work with
their situations, which empowers them. BIG difference!
Beth M.
mommasgoodiesandgifts
"The view of unschooling is not
how many Christians think of children because the Christian culture and
indeed many cultures look upon children with undue and extreme
suspicion...."
I wonder - do you know a majority of Christians on the planet? That's
just another assumption. I am saddened because while looking for the
freedom so often spoken of in unschooling circles - unfortunately it
is freedom as long as you follow along with the groups personal
beliefs.. which is no better than what is accused of home "schooling"
groups.. and it's not just this unschooling group - but on a majority
of the unschooling groups I have joined on yahoo (with the exception
of groups in my local area).. (notice I am not throwing out a random
label out there - I am speaking from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE..) I am
Christian and I don't look upon my children with undue and extreme
suspicion - nor do most of the Christians that I know - and certainly
we are a part of the group labled as "many Christians"..what someone
may perceive from the outside (and having no inside knowlege of our
family and how we believe and operate) it may LOOK like suspicion, but
if you took time to spend with out family it may be something else
entirely.. but then you wouldn't be able to do that with "many"
Christians, and then you wouldn't be able to make baseless assumptions
either.
Whether or not unschooling is a Christian concept depends on how
deeply you install that in your family - does it just apply to
education, does it extend into your discipline. Personally it applies
mainly to our education - and we rely on biblical principles to
determine the rest. So I don't feel that anything about our faith
interferes with that.. But it is so difficult to participate on any of
the unschooling lists I belong to because so often when I speak and
there is any hint of my Christian background - I get jumped on .. and
I promise you - there is no freedom in that. You guys are so busy
talking about the freedom and respect you give to your kids, but don't
bother giving the same thing to adults.
I can promise you I am doing something I have been contemplating for a
while - deleting my membership here and all other unschool lists I
belong to. Other than the Christian ones - because Yes they are
necessary.. so we can discuss openly and not be in fear of being
bashed for assumptions people try to make about us as Christians.
When you have several people (and I have seen it come up several times
on the lists) talk about being treated poorly for either not having a
belief along the mainstream of the group, or mainly just being
Christian - then perhaps instead of laughing about that person's
comments and being sarcastic - you should consider that PERHAPS you
might indeed be guilty of what you are being accused of. I hope you
will consider that and not turn someone away from the idea of what
unschooling is SUPPOSED to be by being rude or curt or making
assumptions.
how many Christians think of children because the Christian culture and
indeed many cultures look upon children with undue and extreme
suspicion...."
I wonder - do you know a majority of Christians on the planet? That's
just another assumption. I am saddened because while looking for the
freedom so often spoken of in unschooling circles - unfortunately it
is freedom as long as you follow along with the groups personal
beliefs.. which is no better than what is accused of home "schooling"
groups.. and it's not just this unschooling group - but on a majority
of the unschooling groups I have joined on yahoo (with the exception
of groups in my local area).. (notice I am not throwing out a random
label out there - I am speaking from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE..) I am
Christian and I don't look upon my children with undue and extreme
suspicion - nor do most of the Christians that I know - and certainly
we are a part of the group labled as "many Christians"..what someone
may perceive from the outside (and having no inside knowlege of our
family and how we believe and operate) it may LOOK like suspicion, but
if you took time to spend with out family it may be something else
entirely.. but then you wouldn't be able to do that with "many"
Christians, and then you wouldn't be able to make baseless assumptions
either.
Whether or not unschooling is a Christian concept depends on how
deeply you install that in your family - does it just apply to
education, does it extend into your discipline. Personally it applies
mainly to our education - and we rely on biblical principles to
determine the rest. So I don't feel that anything about our faith
interferes with that.. But it is so difficult to participate on any of
the unschooling lists I belong to because so often when I speak and
there is any hint of my Christian background - I get jumped on .. and
I promise you - there is no freedom in that. You guys are so busy
talking about the freedom and respect you give to your kids, but don't
bother giving the same thing to adults.
I can promise you I am doing something I have been contemplating for a
while - deleting my membership here and all other unschool lists I
belong to. Other than the Christian ones - because Yes they are
necessary.. so we can discuss openly and not be in fear of being
bashed for assumptions people try to make about us as Christians.
When you have several people (and I have seen it come up several times
on the lists) talk about being treated poorly for either not having a
belief along the mainstream of the group, or mainly just being
Christian - then perhaps instead of laughing about that person's
comments and being sarcastic - you should consider that PERHAPS you
might indeed be guilty of what you are being accused of. I hope you
will consider that and not turn someone away from the idea of what
unschooling is SUPPOSED to be by being rude or curt or making
assumptions.
Sandra Dodd
-=-"The view of unschooling is not
how many Christians think of children because the Christian culture and
indeed many cultures look upon children with undue and extreme
suspicion...."-=-
The response to that perfectly rational and clearly true statement
was this:
-=-I wonder - do you know a majority of Christians on the planet?-=-
A statement that "many Christians think of children..." (or anything)
is made has NOTHING to do with "a majority of Christians on the
planet." All you need for "many" is some small number no longer
worth finger-counting. But y'know what? I went to a Southern
Baptist church, and if those were the ONLY Christians on the planet,
they keep stats like you wouldn't believe, and so I know MILLIONS of
Christians, some directly and some by association and stated belief,
several by blood relation, who believe some or all of the lunatic
stuff of the Southern Baptist Convention. That's enough to qualify
as "many." I know a large representative sample, varied in age and
geography, of those millions. I was one of them for some years. I
get Baptist propaganda e-mail from my father's cousin in Texas
regularly, but I stay on the list because sometimes there's family
news. (My cousin too--first cousin once removed, one of dozens in
that family, all Baptist, several married to preachers.)
If I'd never met one single Christian in my entire life, three
minutes on the internet would bear out the original statement above.
-=-I am Christian and I don't look upon my children with undue and
extreme suspicion - nor do most of the Christians that I know - and
certainly we are a part of the group labled as "many Christians"..-=-
Many baby boomers are also Vietnam Vets. Many New Mexicans are
Spanish-surnamed.
I'm both of those, but neither. I'm not part of either of those
"many" statements. I'm not a part of those subsets. MOST people
aren't, but that doesn't change the fact that many (hundreds of
thousands) are.
-=-Whether or not unschooling is a Christian concept depends on how
deeply you install that in your family - does it just apply to
education, does it extend into your discipline. -=-
It doesn't extend into MY discipline, because discipline isn't even a
term or concept I've ever used with my children, ever. And yet they
are thoughtful and honest and good-hearted.
-=-So I don't feel that anything about our faith interferes with
that.. But it is so difficult to participate on any of the
unschooling lists I belong to because so often when I speak and there
is any hint of my Christian background - I get jumped on-=-
The poster had been on the list for nearly two months, but hadn't
posted anything that hinted of Christian background before this
rant. I don't think she had posted anything at all.
-=-perhaps instead of laughing about that person's comments and being
sarcastic - you should consider that PERHAPS you might indeed be
guilty of what you are being accused of.-=-
If someone can't use the information on this list to make her
children's lives better, then the list is worthless to her and it
wouldn't even make sense to stay here. People have priorities. If
my children's salvation from hellfire were one of my priorities, they
would be in a Christian school right now, most likely, and I'd
probably be the principal.
If I'm accused of not compromising my beliefs or this list to make
people more comfortable with their incompatible priorities, that's a
waste of accusation. I've never claimed anything other than being
willing to dedicate a lot of time and energy to radical unschooling.
If people want something different, there are different places.
Where are all those other places? What are the best places these
days for Christian unschoolers? I just listed some myself, and maybe
that's what the "saddened" rant was about. It sounded more like
indignation than sorrow, but to say "I'm angry" or "I'm furious"
might be "rude or curt or making assumptions."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
how many Christians think of children because the Christian culture and
indeed many cultures look upon children with undue and extreme
suspicion...."-=-
The response to that perfectly rational and clearly true statement
was this:
-=-I wonder - do you know a majority of Christians on the planet?-=-
A statement that "many Christians think of children..." (or anything)
is made has NOTHING to do with "a majority of Christians on the
planet." All you need for "many" is some small number no longer
worth finger-counting. But y'know what? I went to a Southern
Baptist church, and if those were the ONLY Christians on the planet,
they keep stats like you wouldn't believe, and so I know MILLIONS of
Christians, some directly and some by association and stated belief,
several by blood relation, who believe some or all of the lunatic
stuff of the Southern Baptist Convention. That's enough to qualify
as "many." I know a large representative sample, varied in age and
geography, of those millions. I was one of them for some years. I
get Baptist propaganda e-mail from my father's cousin in Texas
regularly, but I stay on the list because sometimes there's family
news. (My cousin too--first cousin once removed, one of dozens in
that family, all Baptist, several married to preachers.)
If I'd never met one single Christian in my entire life, three
minutes on the internet would bear out the original statement above.
-=-I am Christian and I don't look upon my children with undue and
extreme suspicion - nor do most of the Christians that I know - and
certainly we are a part of the group labled as "many Christians"..-=-
Many baby boomers are also Vietnam Vets. Many New Mexicans are
Spanish-surnamed.
I'm both of those, but neither. I'm not part of either of those
"many" statements. I'm not a part of those subsets. MOST people
aren't, but that doesn't change the fact that many (hundreds of
thousands) are.
-=-Whether or not unschooling is a Christian concept depends on how
deeply you install that in your family - does it just apply to
education, does it extend into your discipline. -=-
It doesn't extend into MY discipline, because discipline isn't even a
term or concept I've ever used with my children, ever. And yet they
are thoughtful and honest and good-hearted.
-=-So I don't feel that anything about our faith interferes with
that.. But it is so difficult to participate on any of the
unschooling lists I belong to because so often when I speak and there
is any hint of my Christian background - I get jumped on-=-
The poster had been on the list for nearly two months, but hadn't
posted anything that hinted of Christian background before this
rant. I don't think she had posted anything at all.
-=-perhaps instead of laughing about that person's comments and being
sarcastic - you should consider that PERHAPS you might indeed be
guilty of what you are being accused of.-=-
If someone can't use the information on this list to make her
children's lives better, then the list is worthless to her and it
wouldn't even make sense to stay here. People have priorities. If
my children's salvation from hellfire were one of my priorities, they
would be in a Christian school right now, most likely, and I'd
probably be the principal.
If I'm accused of not compromising my beliefs or this list to make
people more comfortable with their incompatible priorities, that's a
waste of accusation. I've never claimed anything other than being
willing to dedicate a lot of time and energy to radical unschooling.
If people want something different, there are different places.
Where are all those other places? What are the best places these
days for Christian unschoolers? I just listed some myself, and maybe
that's what the "saddened" rant was about. It sounded more like
indignation than sorrow, but to say "I'm angry" or "I'm furious"
might be "rude or curt or making assumptions."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jason & Stephanie
Where are all those other places? What are the best places these
days for Christian unschoolers?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RadChristianUnschoolers/
This is my group of radical unschoolers who also are *christian* I put it like that because there are many different denominations presented and those of us who *unchurch* as well.
We are not the bible belt type, we have faith and live by that faith.You can read the description for more info.
So *many* Christians would not like my group <g>
Stephanie in TN
http://www.learningthroughliving-stephanie.blogspot.com
http://familyrun.ning.com/profile/Stephanie
"When you take the free will out of education, that turns it into schooling." -- John Taylor Gatto
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
days for Christian unschoolers?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RadChristianUnschoolers/
This is my group of radical unschoolers who also are *christian* I put it like that because there are many different denominations presented and those of us who *unchurch* as well.
We are not the bible belt type, we have faith and live by that faith.You can read the description for more info.
So *many* Christians would not like my group <g>
Stephanie in TN
http://www.learningthroughliving-stephanie.blogspot.com
http://familyrun.ning.com/profile/Stephanie
"When you take the free will out of education, that turns it into schooling." -- John Taylor Gatto
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
>>>>>Whether or not unschooling is a Christian concept<<<<<Unschooling isn't a Christian concept. That doesn't mean that Christians
can't be unschoolers. Or Hindus, or Muslims, and so on and on and on.
There are thousands of religions in the world and unschooling is pretty much
in a separate and secular mode. Personally I'm happy about that.
>>>>>Whether or not unschooling is a Christian concept depends on how deeplyyou install that in your family - does it just apply to education, does it
extend into your discipline. Personally it applies mainly to our education -
and we rely on biblical principles to determine the rest.<<<<<
So you're not a radical unschooler. Just because you're not radical about
unschooling doesn't mean that you wouldn't benefit from reading here on a
radical unschooling list. You can unsub but it's fine with me if you don't.
I don't hear much of any serious debate from Christians about how to
unschool radically. Debate as in reasoning together, iron sharpening iron.
I have read on Christian unschooling lists. They were valuable to me in a
number of ways. But I didn't feel like rocking the boat on those lists as a
guest (though a believer) who felt more radically than some of the members
less inclined to unschool radically. I realized that my religious beliefs
coincide easily with unschooling but that's not always true for others. So
there came a point where my beliefs diverge sharply and I don't have enough
in common with the group to make sense.
The post where I was talking about many Christians applies to probably most
of those *I* know. I feel similarly about the words "discipline" and
"disciple" which is not something I attempt to do here in my home. I
influence, I debate sometimes too often, I talk things out, but there's no
discipline to it. I am a fellow believer but don't feel worthy to call
myself a teacher of my religion. I am working on more accurately modeling
the values I want to change for.
As to installing unschooling into my family.... I am laughing at the
ludicrous picture that brings up for me. I am soooo not a installer. I
have been trying to encourage the idea all round, but not actually taking it
and installing it.
I can't do halfers. I admittedly am dissatisfied with much that goes by the
name Christian. So there is my personal disclaimer for anyone who would
like to dismiss the line of thought I am passing around.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
What bothers me about debate there is that some Christians who aren't
radical unschoolers want to question the Christianity of those who disagree
with them. I kinda decided since unschooling isn't primarily a Christian
concept, then maybe I wasn't in the best venue for debate, which *I* need in
order to keep my unschooling ideas clear. I got some great things out of
the groups though, like some book recommendations about Christian concepts.
~Katherine
radical unschoolers want to question the Christianity of those who disagree
with them. I kinda decided since unschooling isn't primarily a Christian
concept, then maybe I wasn't in the best venue for debate, which *I* need in
order to keep my unschooling ideas clear. I got some great things out of
the groups though, like some book recommendations about Christian concepts.
~Katherine
On 9/30/08, Jason & Stephanie <jay_steph93@...> wrote:
>
>
> Where are all those other places? What are the best places these
> days for Christian unschoolers?
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RadChristianUnschoolers/
>
> This is my group of radical unschoolers who also are *christian* I put it
like that because there are many different denominations presented and those
of us who *unchurch* as well.
>
> We are not the bible belt type, we have faith and live by that faith.You
can read the description for more info.
>
> So *many* Christians would not like my group <g>
>
> Stephanie in TN
>
> http://www.learningthroughliving-stephanie.blogspot.com
> http://familyrun.ning.com/profile/Stephanie
>
> "When you take the free will out of education, that turns it into
schooling." -- John Taylor Gatto
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
------------------
"The view of unschooling is not
how many Christians think of children because the Christian culture and
indeed many cultures look upon children with undue and extreme
suspicion...."
I wonder - do you know a majority of Christians on the planet?
---------------
According to http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm there are 2,039 million Christians on the planet, so I'm guessing no one on this list knows a majority. Although they may only be 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon away from them all ;>. Many does not equal a majority. Given that most aren't in the U.S., many doesn't even equal any kind of stereotype that Little Britain USA covers.
I can remember this fantastic movie called Holy Ghost People that I watched as an undergraduate in anthropology (oh, I love youtube: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_nX0irC4Bgs, love, love youtube!!), that is about the practice of snake handling in some churches in the U.S. as a demonstration of their faith. There are biblical quotes that are cited as evidence that true faith in God will give you protection against serpents and scorpions and against poison. So they test their faith.
My guess is that those Christians have less in common with the Christians that you mention as "most of the Christians that I know" than the atheist or agnostic unschoolers on this list do. Christian covers a huge range of faith and intensity and cost. I'm not suggesting that your Christian faith is less than the faith of the snake handlers, but I imagine that it is tested in less charismatic and public ways.
---------------
That's
just another assumption. I am saddened because while looking for the
freedom so often spoken of in unschooling circles - unfortunately it
is freedom as long as you follow along with the groups personal
beliefs..
------------
Tell me a list where that doesn't happen. This list is about moving closer to radical unschooling. It isn't about putting how to maintain faith in a household while supporting individual freedom to choose in a home, although it can be. Ask a question...
--------------
I am Christian and I don't look upon my children with undue and extreme
suspicion
----------------
My dad is Christian and he is so happy to talk about theology with me. I don't know a lot, and I can be quite vociferous with my athiesm, but I think he likes a good chat. And I like to tease him when he says "God bless you" when getting off the phone. It must be a habit for him now, it isn't anything that he's done more than a couple of times, but I love that accidental viewing of how much his faith has become a defining feature in his life. He doesn't look upon me with undue and extreme suspicion. Actually, my athiest stepfather probably views me more so.
-----------
- nor do most of the Christians that I know - and certainly
we are a part of the group labled as "many Christians"
---------------
Ah, but does that make you the majority? 'Cause Sandra said many and know you are classifying you and yours among many, so how many more for majority? Maybe you are making assumptions that most Christians are like the ones you know. Maybe Sandra, or others, have wider experience. I don't have a very wide experience. I was raised a Unitarian and now live in a largely secular country. I've been excluded from families and groups because I'm not a Christian. I wasn't allowed to rent a house because of my lack of faith. It was nuns who kept me out. But I've also been welcomed by a Priest who christened Simon in a lovely little Episcopalian Church in the South Valley in Albuquerque so that he could wear the gown that had been handed down from parent to child to grandchild to great grandchild on David's side of the family. He knew I was an athiest and he was alright with accepting that in my desire to accomodate my in-laws.
--------------
Whether or not unschooling is a Christian concept depends on how
deeply you install that in your family
---------------
Unschooling isn't a Christian concept. Unschooling is an educational approach that can be extended into other aspects of your life. Unschooling is installed deeply into my family.
-----------------------
Personally it applies
mainly to our education - and we rely on biblical principles to
determine the rest. So I don't feel that anything about our faith
interferes with that.. But it is so difficult to participate on any of
the unschooling lists I belong to because so often when I speak and
there is any hint of my Christian background - I get jumped on .. and
I promise you - there is no freedom in that.
----------------------
Depending on the lists you are on, not extending unschooling beyond the realm of education may get more of the specifics of your posts questioned than would your faith. Saying that being a Christian is something that comes between you and unschooling may also get you responses from others on the list about faith and unschooling.
------------------
You guys are so busy
talking about the freedom and respect you give to your kids, but don't
bother giving the same thing to adults.
-------------------
Quite honestly I'm not on this list to be helped as an adult. And I don't want my hand held and the small of my back supported as I weep and moan about how difficult something or the other is. I want to hear words about how to move from here to a better life with my children. If I had to spend the time that I volunteer, both to reading and to replying, on lists like this to giving freedom to adults, I would probably spend a lot less time doing it. There are three people in my life who I will bend over backward to support. And I do. The rest of the world gets to take or leave me as I am. And I like to think I'm pretty generous with the rest of the world as well. Just not so bothered with making sure that all their needs are met.
Schuyler
http://www.waynforth.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"The view of unschooling is not
how many Christians think of children because the Christian culture and
indeed many cultures look upon children with undue and extreme
suspicion...."
I wonder - do you know a majority of Christians on the planet?
---------------
According to http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm there are 2,039 million Christians on the planet, so I'm guessing no one on this list knows a majority. Although they may only be 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon away from them all ;>. Many does not equal a majority. Given that most aren't in the U.S., many doesn't even equal any kind of stereotype that Little Britain USA covers.
I can remember this fantastic movie called Holy Ghost People that I watched as an undergraduate in anthropology (oh, I love youtube: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_nX0irC4Bgs, love, love youtube!!), that is about the practice of snake handling in some churches in the U.S. as a demonstration of their faith. There are biblical quotes that are cited as evidence that true faith in God will give you protection against serpents and scorpions and against poison. So they test their faith.
My guess is that those Christians have less in common with the Christians that you mention as "most of the Christians that I know" than the atheist or agnostic unschoolers on this list do. Christian covers a huge range of faith and intensity and cost. I'm not suggesting that your Christian faith is less than the faith of the snake handlers, but I imagine that it is tested in less charismatic and public ways.
---------------
That's
just another assumption. I am saddened because while looking for the
freedom so often spoken of in unschooling circles - unfortunately it
is freedom as long as you follow along with the groups personal
beliefs..
------------
Tell me a list where that doesn't happen. This list is about moving closer to radical unschooling. It isn't about putting how to maintain faith in a household while supporting individual freedom to choose in a home, although it can be. Ask a question...
--------------
I am Christian and I don't look upon my children with undue and extreme
suspicion
----------------
My dad is Christian and he is so happy to talk about theology with me. I don't know a lot, and I can be quite vociferous with my athiesm, but I think he likes a good chat. And I like to tease him when he says "God bless you" when getting off the phone. It must be a habit for him now, it isn't anything that he's done more than a couple of times, but I love that accidental viewing of how much his faith has become a defining feature in his life. He doesn't look upon me with undue and extreme suspicion. Actually, my athiest stepfather probably views me more so.
-----------
- nor do most of the Christians that I know - and certainly
we are a part of the group labled as "many Christians"
---------------
Ah, but does that make you the majority? 'Cause Sandra said many and know you are classifying you and yours among many, so how many more for majority? Maybe you are making assumptions that most Christians are like the ones you know. Maybe Sandra, or others, have wider experience. I don't have a very wide experience. I was raised a Unitarian and now live in a largely secular country. I've been excluded from families and groups because I'm not a Christian. I wasn't allowed to rent a house because of my lack of faith. It was nuns who kept me out. But I've also been welcomed by a Priest who christened Simon in a lovely little Episcopalian Church in the South Valley in Albuquerque so that he could wear the gown that had been handed down from parent to child to grandchild to great grandchild on David's side of the family. He knew I was an athiest and he was alright with accepting that in my desire to accomodate my in-laws.
--------------
Whether or not unschooling is a Christian concept depends on how
deeply you install that in your family
---------------
Unschooling isn't a Christian concept. Unschooling is an educational approach that can be extended into other aspects of your life. Unschooling is installed deeply into my family.
-----------------------
Personally it applies
mainly to our education - and we rely on biblical principles to
determine the rest. So I don't feel that anything about our faith
interferes with that.. But it is so difficult to participate on any of
the unschooling lists I belong to because so often when I speak and
there is any hint of my Christian background - I get jumped on .. and
I promise you - there is no freedom in that.
----------------------
Depending on the lists you are on, not extending unschooling beyond the realm of education may get more of the specifics of your posts questioned than would your faith. Saying that being a Christian is something that comes between you and unschooling may also get you responses from others on the list about faith and unschooling.
------------------
You guys are so busy
talking about the freedom and respect you give to your kids, but don't
bother giving the same thing to adults.
-------------------
Quite honestly I'm not on this list to be helped as an adult. And I don't want my hand held and the small of my back supported as I weep and moan about how difficult something or the other is. I want to hear words about how to move from here to a better life with my children. If I had to spend the time that I volunteer, both to reading and to replying, on lists like this to giving freedom to adults, I would probably spend a lot less time doing it. There are three people in my life who I will bend over backward to support. And I do. The rest of the world gets to take or leave me as I am. And I like to think I'm pretty generous with the rest of the world as well. Just not so bothered with making sure that all their needs are met.
Schuyler
http://www.waynforth.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
My purpose in coming to unschooling lists is to get a constant flow of good
words to share with others in my life who aren't sure of this unschooling
thing (whose support I want). And often I unknowingly have yet another
thing to consider for changes in myself that I hadn't thought of and it's on
the lists that I often become aware of it.
Some may have little to no patience for hearing about children being banned
from intellectual freedom. I feel strongly about it. What I have to say is
bound to sound overwrought and crazyfied to people who haven't had the same
kind of experiences. Nonetheless my discussion is not about defining an
entire group or performing exclusionary tactics on that group, as if I could
(and anyway I don't even want to do such a thing).
I'm not the only one who thinks so (though it would be fine with me if I
were). Phillip Pullman on the same thought: "Religion, uncontaminated by
power, can be the source of a great deal of private solace, artistic
inspiration, and moral wisdom. But when it gets its hands on the levers of
political or social authority, it goes rotten very quickly indeed."
I think the home is the seat of tremendous social authority, and when
parents don't exert control over the free thought of their children, then
the authority wielded there doesn't get out of whack.
Bear with me (grrrrin) or don't. I may bring it up yet again sometime after
more thought. If I could "hash" this out on some other forum or board of
believers where radical unschooling is a given and I wouldn't be stepping on
people's toes who are growing toward radical unschooling. I'm going to try
it. Thanks for the invite, Stephanie. If there is such a discussion
underway that I could join, I'd certainly be interested!
~Katherine
words to share with others in my life who aren't sure of this unschooling
thing (whose support I want). And often I unknowingly have yet another
thing to consider for changes in myself that I hadn't thought of and it's on
the lists that I often become aware of it.
Some may have little to no patience for hearing about children being banned
from intellectual freedom. I feel strongly about it. What I have to say is
bound to sound overwrought and crazyfied to people who haven't had the same
kind of experiences. Nonetheless my discussion is not about defining an
entire group or performing exclusionary tactics on that group, as if I could
(and anyway I don't even want to do such a thing).
I'm not the only one who thinks so (though it would be fine with me if I
were). Phillip Pullman on the same thought: "Religion, uncontaminated by
power, can be the source of a great deal of private solace, artistic
inspiration, and moral wisdom. But when it gets its hands on the levers of
political or social authority, it goes rotten very quickly indeed."
I think the home is the seat of tremendous social authority, and when
parents don't exert control over the free thought of their children, then
the authority wielded there doesn't get out of whack.
Bear with me (grrrrin) or don't. I may bring it up yet again sometime after
more thought. If I could "hash" this out on some other forum or board of
believers where radical unschooling is a given and I wouldn't be stepping on
people's toes who are growing toward radical unschooling. I'm going to try
it. Thanks for the invite, Stephanie. If there is such a discussion
underway that I could join, I'd certainly be interested!
~Katherine
On 9/30/08, Jason & Stephanie <jay_steph93@...> wrote:
> Where are all those other places? What are the best places these
> days for Christian unschoolers?
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RadChristianUnschoolers/
>
> This is my group of radical unschoolers who also are *christian* I put it
like that because there are many different denominations presented and those
of us who *unchurch* as well.
>
> We are not the bible belt type, we have faith and live by that faith.You
can read the description for more info.
>
> So *many* Christians would not like my group <g>
>
> Stephanie in TN
>
> http://www.learningthroughliving-stephanie.blogspot.com
> http://familyrun.ning.com/profile/Stephanie
>
> "When you take the free will out of education, that turns it into
schooling." -- John Taylor Gatto
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-If I could "hash" this out on some other forum or board of
believers where radical unschooling is a given and I wouldn't be
stepping on
people's toes who are growing toward radical unschooling.-=-
If it doesn't work over there, you could discuss it here.
I realized when I was out driving around and far from the computer
that the "Do you know the majority of Christians in the world" (or
whatever the exact quote was) was a pre-scripted comeback to a
statement of "most Christians..." and the writer hadn't even written
"most."
When I was in the hospital having Kirby, 22 years and some ago, I had
actually read most of the booklist we'd been given in our hospital-
sponsored birthing class. Not all of them. But those, and some
others. So two different times, two different people, two different
shifts, when I asked a simple question about what they were doing or
planning to do to me, I got a very same response. It had a sing-
songiness to it, and was clearly something they used as a put-down
with some regularity. It was "What medical school did *you* go
to?" It meant "shut up."
Apparently they had given us that reading list to cover their ass in
case of lawsuit, not actually expecting us to read the books and
learn anything.
Ever since then, I've been more aware of and interested in the idea
of stock insults to outsiders that come from defensive groups. I
missed that when I was here, though, that it was a parroted phrase,
used inappropriately.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
believers where radical unschooling is a given and I wouldn't be
stepping on
people's toes who are growing toward radical unschooling.-=-
If it doesn't work over there, you could discuss it here.
I realized when I was out driving around and far from the computer
that the "Do you know the majority of Christians in the world" (or
whatever the exact quote was) was a pre-scripted comeback to a
statement of "most Christians..." and the writer hadn't even written
"most."
When I was in the hospital having Kirby, 22 years and some ago, I had
actually read most of the booklist we'd been given in our hospital-
sponsored birthing class. Not all of them. But those, and some
others. So two different times, two different people, two different
shifts, when I asked a simple question about what they were doing or
planning to do to me, I got a very same response. It had a sing-
songiness to it, and was clearly something they used as a put-down
with some regularity. It was "What medical school did *you* go
to?" It meant "shut up."
Apparently they had given us that reading list to cover their ass in
case of lawsuit, not actually expecting us to read the books and
learn anything.
Ever since then, I've been more aware of and interested in the idea
of stock insults to outsiders that come from defensive groups. I
missed that when I was here, though, that it was a parroted phrase,
used inappropriately.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
Well I'm interested in discussing it. I got a few replies from people who
seemed somewhat interested. Maybe it's a hiccup of interest to people who
aren't Christians. I dunno. I appreciate the responses I got and learned
something from all of them. I got one reply from someone claiming to be a
Christian that was all about have me to "shut up." I got another reply
inviting me to RCU. I'm a member there already just haven't been very
active.
Whether it works there or not, I've already mentioned to that group that I'm
willing to discuss with anyone. The issue of religion is not one unique to
Christians. Unschoolers come from many different backgrounds and religious
persuasions. I'm quite sure Christianity isn't the only set of cultural
influences with a tendency to rule orientation. So I'm thinking, let's
discuss it!
The reason I brought up Christianity is probably clear enough but just in
case it's not, it's the only religion I have much direct experience with and
it's the one that's had the most influence on me personally, *and* it's
probably the biggest influence on the daily life in my home, even though we
don't even go to church and haven't for years.
~Katherine
seemed somewhat interested. Maybe it's a hiccup of interest to people who
aren't Christians. I dunno. I appreciate the responses I got and learned
something from all of them. I got one reply from someone claiming to be a
Christian that was all about have me to "shut up." I got another reply
inviting me to RCU. I'm a member there already just haven't been very
active.
Whether it works there or not, I've already mentioned to that group that I'm
willing to discuss with anyone. The issue of religion is not one unique to
Christians. Unschoolers come from many different backgrounds and religious
persuasions. I'm quite sure Christianity isn't the only set of cultural
influences with a tendency to rule orientation. So I'm thinking, let's
discuss it!
The reason I brought up Christianity is probably clear enough but just in
case it's not, it's the only religion I have much direct experience with and
it's the one that's had the most influence on me personally, *and* it's
probably the biggest influence on the daily life in my home, even though we
don't even go to church and haven't for years.
~Katherine
On 10/2/08, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-If I could "hash" this out on some other forum or board of
> believers where radical unschooling is a given and I wouldn't be
> stepping on
> people's toes who are growing toward radical unschooling.-=-
>
> If it doesn't work over there, you could discuss it here.
>
> I realized when I was out driving around and far from the computer
> that the "Do you know the majority of Christians in the world" (or
> whatever the exact quote was) was a pre-scripted comeback to a
> statement of "most Christians..." and the writer hadn't even written
> "most."
>
> When I was in the hospital having Kirby, 22 years and some ago, I had
> actually read most of the booklist we'd been given in our hospital-
> sponsored birthing class. Not all of them. But those, and some
> others. So two different times, two different people, two different
> shifts, when I asked a simple question about what they were doing or
> planning to do to me, I got a very same response. It had a sing-
> songiness to it, and was clearly something they used as a put-down
> with some regularity. It was "What medical school did *you* go
> to?" It meant "shut up."
>
> Apparently they had given us that reading list to cover their ass in
> case of lawsuit, not actually expecting us to read the books and
> learn anything.
>
> Ever since then, I've been more aware of and interested in the idea
> of stock insults to outsiders that come from defensive groups. I
> missed that when I was here, though, that it was a parroted phrase,
> used inappropriately.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm quite sure Christianity isn't the only set of cultural
influences with a tendency to rule orientation. So I'm thinking, let's
discuss it!-=-
Christianity has for years had the most effect on homeschoolers who
aren't even Christian, in the U.S. anyway. Ten years ago, they were
being told they created, owned and operated homeschooling. It wasn't
true, but it was reported with feeling, and with statistics, and one
tendency of Christianity is they trust that men of God (however self-
proclaimed) are telling the truth.
Lately there are another couple of movements (in the US, and maybe
it's more widespread) people have jumped into. They too sometimes
(too often) assume that all other unschoolers are coming from that
perspective too. One group adopts Marshall Rosenberg's stuff in a
religious way and come to consider those don't want to side up with
the giraffes or the kangaroos to be heathens (or out of the corner of
their minds, categorize them as "violent communicators"). The other
group wants desperately to believe in Ester Hicks and her imaginary
friend, because if they believe those things they can be rich and happy.
A little older than that and less harsh in the assumptions is
formalized paganism.
Waldorf is another set of beliefs that can turn cult-like with some
people. The best way to get over that one is to read more and more
about Rudolf Steiner.
From the point of view of people who like the idea of being
surrounded by powerful spirits and "laws" and who like to feel
helplessly placed where they are (or worse, powerfully placed where
they are by pre-birth contracts), humanistic ideas of genetics and
native intelligence and potential for goodness and plain-old cause
and effect without cosmic factors probably can seem irritating.
If unschoolers have other religious or philosophies, that's probably
not going to be a problem if their own families can figure out how to
prioritize the requirements of the situation. If they believe more
in one than the other, that will help them in their decision making.
If the two coexist smoothly and easily or they can find a source of
assistance to tweak their understanding so that they can do both at
once, great!
I know there are people on this list with fondness for or deep
involvement in one or more of those "come and belong to us!" groups.
I don't think of humanism as a group, but some people do and have
managed to make a minor counter-religion of it, just as some
atheists have, with meetings and literature and I guess they have
picnics and social stuff.
I'm not trying to talk anybody out of their spiritual preferences. I
just want to say to everyone, as I've said to Christians since I
first started having to defend my own unschooling on the *Prodigy
user group, that people can homeschool without being Christian.
People can unschool without having the overlay of another set of
rules and justifications. Not all homeschoolers are "pro life" or
vegetarian or believers in a pre-birth waiting room, and it should be
remembered that not all other unschoolers believe any particular
thing about politics or diet or spirituality.
Just as unschooling works the same way for all kinds of kids, it
works the same way within all kinds of side-beliefs (or primary
beliefs, if that other belief is larger than unschooling in that
family), if it will work at all.
Unschooling works when the parents are open and energetic and
creative and love their kids without a set of reasons to suspect them
and limit them and hold them back. That works not because I said it,
and not because there are laws at work in the universe that draw it
out to work. It works because of human nature. If people go with
human nature instead of against it when they're in the parents-of-
young-children phases, the results are way bigger than had ever been
suggested in anything I had read when Kirby was little. I've seen
it in many other families whose kids are young adults now. We
really, truly are onto something wonderful and it works by itself,
once you get it working, in normal houses without magic requirements
and without special equipment.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
influences with a tendency to rule orientation. So I'm thinking, let's
discuss it!-=-
Christianity has for years had the most effect on homeschoolers who
aren't even Christian, in the U.S. anyway. Ten years ago, they were
being told they created, owned and operated homeschooling. It wasn't
true, but it was reported with feeling, and with statistics, and one
tendency of Christianity is they trust that men of God (however self-
proclaimed) are telling the truth.
Lately there are another couple of movements (in the US, and maybe
it's more widespread) people have jumped into. They too sometimes
(too often) assume that all other unschoolers are coming from that
perspective too. One group adopts Marshall Rosenberg's stuff in a
religious way and come to consider those don't want to side up with
the giraffes or the kangaroos to be heathens (or out of the corner of
their minds, categorize them as "violent communicators"). The other
group wants desperately to believe in Ester Hicks and her imaginary
friend, because if they believe those things they can be rich and happy.
A little older than that and less harsh in the assumptions is
formalized paganism.
Waldorf is another set of beliefs that can turn cult-like with some
people. The best way to get over that one is to read more and more
about Rudolf Steiner.
From the point of view of people who like the idea of being
surrounded by powerful spirits and "laws" and who like to feel
helplessly placed where they are (or worse, powerfully placed where
they are by pre-birth contracts), humanistic ideas of genetics and
native intelligence and potential for goodness and plain-old cause
and effect without cosmic factors probably can seem irritating.
If unschoolers have other religious or philosophies, that's probably
not going to be a problem if their own families can figure out how to
prioritize the requirements of the situation. If they believe more
in one than the other, that will help them in their decision making.
If the two coexist smoothly and easily or they can find a source of
assistance to tweak their understanding so that they can do both at
once, great!
I know there are people on this list with fondness for or deep
involvement in one or more of those "come and belong to us!" groups.
I don't think of humanism as a group, but some people do and have
managed to make a minor counter-religion of it, just as some
atheists have, with meetings and literature and I guess they have
picnics and social stuff.
I'm not trying to talk anybody out of their spiritual preferences. I
just want to say to everyone, as I've said to Christians since I
first started having to defend my own unschooling on the *Prodigy
user group, that people can homeschool without being Christian.
People can unschool without having the overlay of another set of
rules and justifications. Not all homeschoolers are "pro life" or
vegetarian or believers in a pre-birth waiting room, and it should be
remembered that not all other unschoolers believe any particular
thing about politics or diet or spirituality.
Just as unschooling works the same way for all kinds of kids, it
works the same way within all kinds of side-beliefs (or primary
beliefs, if that other belief is larger than unschooling in that
family), if it will work at all.
Unschooling works when the parents are open and energetic and
creative and love their kids without a set of reasons to suspect them
and limit them and hold them back. That works not because I said it,
and not because there are laws at work in the universe that draw it
out to work. It works because of human nature. If people go with
human nature instead of against it when they're in the parents-of-
young-children phases, the results are way bigger than had ever been
suggested in anything I had read when Kirby was little. I've seen
it in many other families whose kids are young adults now. We
really, truly are onto something wonderful and it works by itself,
once you get it working, in normal houses without magic requirements
and without special equipment.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
What Sandra says here certainly helps those as well who like the basic
beliefs but not the religions their beliefs are supposed to belong to (me).
It seems that unschooling works very nicely with or without "magic" or
religion or other things to help it along. Sure.
And even Brian, who isn't convinced about it, can see how great it is for
Karl. And all along, he really hasn't particularly *wanted* to. Hmm.
I got upset about something and thought about dropping out of everything
because it didn't seem to mesh at all with what we were trying to do
yesterday. And I said "I don't think we can do unschooling." Brian's reply
was: "Why not?" ??? Still upset I said well ok, I'll put the thought about
ditching unschooling on the back burner for now. A couple of weeks ago, I
said the same thing and Brian gave a curt nod as though to say "Good
riddance."
So ok. Good. The process has not been smooth, rather lumpy, bumpy and
cranky many many times. And it's STILL working fine. You guys can't see us
in real life. Readers can't see Karl. But we can, and are alternately
challenged and amazed by what we're seeing. We're not smooth sailing.
We're the challenging part. Karl's the amazing part.
~Katherine
beliefs but not the religions their beliefs are supposed to belong to (me).
It seems that unschooling works very nicely with or without "magic" or
religion or other things to help it along. Sure.
And even Brian, who isn't convinced about it, can see how great it is for
Karl. And all along, he really hasn't particularly *wanted* to. Hmm.
I got upset about something and thought about dropping out of everything
because it didn't seem to mesh at all with what we were trying to do
yesterday. And I said "I don't think we can do unschooling." Brian's reply
was: "Why not?" ??? Still upset I said well ok, I'll put the thought about
ditching unschooling on the back burner for now. A couple of weeks ago, I
said the same thing and Brian gave a curt nod as though to say "Good
riddance."
So ok. Good. The process has not been smooth, rather lumpy, bumpy and
cranky many many times. And it's STILL working fine. You guys can't see us
in real life. Readers can't see Karl. But we can, and are alternately
challenged and amazed by what we're seeing. We're not smooth sailing.
We're the challenging part. Karl's the amazing part.
~Katherine
On 10/5/08, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-I'm quite sure Christianity isn't the only set of cultural
> influences with a tendency to rule orientation. So I'm thinking, let's
> discuss it!-=-
>
> Christianity has for years had the most effect on homeschoolers who
> aren't even Christian, in the U.S. anyway. Ten years ago, they were
> being told they created, owned and operated homeschooling. It wasn't
> true, but it was reported with feeling, and with statistics, and one
> tendency of Christianity is they trust that men of God (however self-
> proclaimed) are telling the truth.
>
> Lately there are another couple of movements (in the US, and maybe
> it's more widespread) people have jumped into. They too sometimes
> (too often) assume that all other unschoolers are coming from that
> perspective too. One group adopts Marshall Rosenberg's stuff in a
> religious way and come to consider those don't want to side up with
> the giraffes or the kangaroos to be heathens (or out of the corner of
> their minds, categorize them as "violent communicators"). The other
> group wants desperately to believe in Ester Hicks and her imaginary
> friend, because if they believe those things they can be rich and happy.
>
> A little older than that and less harsh in the assumptions is
> formalized paganism.
>
> Waldorf is another set of beliefs that can turn cult-like with some
> people. The best way to get over that one is to read more and more
> about Rudolf Steiner.
>
> From the point of view of people who like the idea of being
> surrounded by powerful spirits and "laws" and who like to feel
> helplessly placed where they are (or worse, powerfully placed where
> they are by pre-birth contracts), humanistic ideas of genetics and
> native intelligence and potential for goodness and plain-old cause
> and effect without cosmic factors probably can seem irritating.
>
> If unschoolers have other religious or philosophies, that's probably
> not going to be a problem if their own families can figure out how to
> prioritize the requirements of the situation. If they believe more
> in one than the other, that will help them in their decision making.
> If the two coexist smoothly and easily or they can find a source of
> assistance to tweak their understanding so that they can do both at
> once, great!
>
> I know there are people on this list with fondness for or deep
> involvement in one or more of those "come and belong to us!" groups.
> I don't think of humanism as a group, but some people do and have
> managed to make a minor counter-religion of it, just as some
> atheists have, with meetings and literature and I guess they have
> picnics and social stuff.
>
> I'm not trying to talk anybody out of their spiritual preferences. I
> just want to say to everyone, as I've said to Christians since I
> first started having to defend my own unschooling on the *Prodigy
> user group, that people can homeschool without being Christian.
> People can unschool without having the overlay of another set of
> rules and justifications. Not all homeschoolers are "pro life" or
> vegetarian or believers in a pre-birth waiting room, and it should be
> remembered that not all other unschoolers believe any particular
> thing about politics or diet or spirituality.
>
> Just as unschooling works the same way for all kinds of kids, it
> works the same way within all kinds of side-beliefs (or primary
> beliefs, if that other belief is larger than unschooling in that
> family), if it will work at all.
>
> Unschooling works when the parents are open and energetic and
> creative and love their kids without a set of reasons to suspect them
> and limit them and hold them back. That works not because I said it,
> and not because there are laws at work in the universe that draw it
> out to work. It works because of human nature. If people go with
> human nature instead of against it when they're in the parents-of-
> young-children phases, the results are way bigger than had ever been
> suggested in anything I had read when Kirby was little. I've seen
> it in many other families whose kids are young adults now. We
> really, truly are onto something wonderful and it works by itself,
> once you get it working, in normal houses without magic requirements
> and without special equipment.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<<Still upset I said well ok, I'll put the thought about
renouncing unschooling isn't really removing "something" is it? Isn't it
more making some choices to turn towards some other practices, some other
behaviors that are not unschooling?
Think about what those would be and ask if they are what you really want.
Are they introducing punishments for behaviors? Are they rewards for other
behaviors? Is it making up a bunch of rules and then having to constantly
check that they are being followed.? Is it removing options, limiting
choices, putting up fences, closing curtains?
Or is it that you sometimes have some other child in your mind, some
idealized happy vision of what a "good, well behaved boy" looks like, and
every now and then wonder if rules and directives and control and "no" will
magically produce that?
Whenever I have fleetingly thought of not unschooling the big wall that I
would have to start erecting sounds absolutely exhausting. The alternatives
to unschooling have become so increasingly foreign to me. I can't imagine
even trying to tell Jayn she couldn't do something that she has safely and
happily done in the past. I can't imagine telling her to do something she
was unwilling to do, or fathom the immense amount of work it would be to
make her do it.
Remember zenmomma's sign on her mirror: "It's not the unschooling, it's the
......."
I'm sure most of us know what a life of "no" looks like; if we didn't live
it as a child, probably our spouse did. Happy memories of a life of "yes" -
that's what I want for Jayn.
Lot's of questions, mostly rhetorical. But maybe it is worth asking oneself
what the alternative is when we are considering ditching unschooling.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
> ditching unschooling on the back burner for now. >>>>How would that be made possible? Seriously, the idea of ditching or
renouncing unschooling isn't really removing "something" is it? Isn't it
more making some choices to turn towards some other practices, some other
behaviors that are not unschooling?
Think about what those would be and ask if they are what you really want.
Are they introducing punishments for behaviors? Are they rewards for other
behaviors? Is it making up a bunch of rules and then having to constantly
check that they are being followed.? Is it removing options, limiting
choices, putting up fences, closing curtains?
Or is it that you sometimes have some other child in your mind, some
idealized happy vision of what a "good, well behaved boy" looks like, and
every now and then wonder if rules and directives and control and "no" will
magically produce that?
Whenever I have fleetingly thought of not unschooling the big wall that I
would have to start erecting sounds absolutely exhausting. The alternatives
to unschooling have become so increasingly foreign to me. I can't imagine
even trying to tell Jayn she couldn't do something that she has safely and
happily done in the past. I can't imagine telling her to do something she
was unwilling to do, or fathom the immense amount of work it would be to
make her do it.
Remember zenmomma's sign on her mirror: "It's not the unschooling, it's the
......."
I'm sure most of us know what a life of "no" looks like; if we didn't live
it as a child, probably our spouse did. Happy memories of a life of "yes" -
that's what I want for Jayn.
Lot's of questions, mostly rhetorical. But maybe it is worth asking oneself
what the alternative is when we are considering ditching unschooling.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
k
Here I am replying to myself on the topic of ditching unschooling because I
didn't want to take over Robyn's very good thread. I think there's a lot of
fruitful work that could be done as she has envisioned the phrase "ditching
unschooling."
The way I used it, the word ditching refers to the way that one parent sees
unschooling doesn't match up with the way another parent views it, and how
the resulting inequity and potential to the child can result in not even
really unschooling. What we're doing here is definitely more and more
towards unschooling. Brian and I are onboard with many of the same aspects
of how radical unschooling works with screen time, and a large variety of
other freedoms often not accorded to children. There are differences that
we run into where one parent is all for more freedom and the other is not,
and that's what I was upset with.
Now that I'm writing this out, I see how unhelpful and even threatening
ditching unschooling sounds. Maturity and wisdom would ease some of this
stuff, Katherine, ya know? I chafe at the slow pace sometimes. It helps to
realize that Karl at 5 has so very much more than so many other kids I know
of... in the way of free choice. And as he grows older, he will have more.
~Katherine
didn't want to take over Robyn's very good thread. I think there's a lot of
fruitful work that could be done as she has envisioned the phrase "ditching
unschooling."
The way I used it, the word ditching refers to the way that one parent sees
unschooling doesn't match up with the way another parent views it, and how
the resulting inequity and potential to the child can result in not even
really unschooling. What we're doing here is definitely more and more
towards unschooling. Brian and I are onboard with many of the same aspects
of how radical unschooling works with screen time, and a large variety of
other freedoms often not accorded to children. There are differences that
we run into where one parent is all for more freedom and the other is not,
and that's what I was upset with.
Now that I'm writing this out, I see how unhelpful and even threatening
ditching unschooling sounds. Maturity and wisdom would ease some of this
stuff, Katherine, ya know? I chafe at the slow pace sometimes. It helps to
realize that Karl at 5 has so very much more than so many other kids I know
of... in the way of free choice. And as he grows older, he will have more.
~Katherine
On 10/5/08, k <katherand@...> wrote:
>
> What Sandra says here certainly helps those as well who like the basic
> beliefs but not the religions their beliefs are supposed to belong to (me).
> It seems that unschooling works very nicely with or without "magic" or
> religion or other things to help it along. Sure.
>
> And even Brian, who isn't convinced about it, can see how great it is for
> Karl. And all along, he really hasn't particularly *wanted* to. Hmm.
>
> I got upset about something and thought about dropping out of everything
> because it didn't seem to mesh at all with what we were trying to do
> yesterday. And I said "I don't think we can do unschooling." Brian's reply
> was: "Why not?" ??? Still upset I said well ok, I'll put the thought about
> ditching unschooling on the back burner for now. A couple of weeks ago, I
> said the same thing and Brian gave a curt nod as though to say "Good
> riddance."
>
> So ok. Good. The process has not been smooth, rather lumpy, bumpy and
> cranky many many times. And it's STILL working fine. You guys can't see us
> in real life. Readers can't see Karl. But we can, and are alternately
> challenged and amazed by what we're seeing. We're not smooth sailing.
> We're the challenging part. Karl's the amazing part.
>
> ~Katherine
>
>
>
>
>
> On 10/5/08, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>>
>> -=-I'm quite sure Christianity isn't the only set of cultural
>> influences with a tendency to rule orientation. So I'm thinking, let's
>> discuss it!-=-
>>
>> Christianity has for years had the most effect on homeschoolers who
>> aren't even Christian, in the U.S. anyway. Ten years ago, they were
>> being told they created, owned and operated homeschooling. It wasn't
>> true, but it was reported with feeling, and with statistics, and one
>> tendency of Christianity is they trust that men of God (however self-
>> proclaimed) are telling the truth.
>>
>> Lately there are another couple of movements (in the US, and maybe
>> it's more widespread) people have jumped into. They too sometimes
>> (too often) assume that all other unschoolers are coming from that
>> perspective too. One group adopts Marshall Rosenberg's stuff in a
>> religious way and come to consider those don't want to side up with
>> the giraffes or the kangaroos to be heathens (or out of the corner of
>> their minds, categorize them as "violent communicators"). The other
>> group wants desperately to believe in Ester Hicks and her imaginary
>> friend, because if they believe those things they can be rich and happy.
>>
>> A little older than that and less harsh in the assumptions is
>> formalized paganism.
>>
>> Waldorf is another set of beliefs that can turn cult-like with some
>> people. The best way to get over that one is to read more and more
>> about Rudolf Steiner.
>>
>> From the point of view of people who like the idea of being
>> surrounded by powerful spirits and "laws" and who like to feel
>> helplessly placed where they are (or worse, powerfully placed where
>> they are by pre-birth contracts), humanistic ideas of genetics and
>> native intelligence and potential for goodness and plain-old cause
>> and effect without cosmic factors probably can seem irritating.
>>
>> If unschoolers have other religious or philosophies, that's probably
>> not going to be a problem if their own families can figure out how to
>> prioritize the requirements of the situation. If they believe more
>> in one than the other, that will help them in their decision making.
>> If the two coexist smoothly and easily or they can find a source of
>> assistance to tweak their understanding so that they can do both at
>> once, great!
>>
>> I know there are people on this list with fondness for or deep
>> involvement in one or more of those "come and belong to us!" groups.
>> I don't think of humanism as a group, but some people do and have
>> managed to make a minor counter-religion of it, just as some
>> atheists have, with meetings and literature and I guess they have
>> picnics and social stuff.
>>
>> I'm not trying to talk anybody out of their spiritual preferences. I
>> just want to say to everyone, as I've said to Christians since I
>> first started having to defend my own unschooling on the *Prodigy
>> user group, that people can homeschool without being Christian.
>> People can unschool without having the overlay of another set of
>> rules and justifications. Not all homeschoolers are "pro life" or
>> vegetarian or believers in a pre-birth waiting room, and it should be
>> remembered that not all other unschoolers believe any particular
>> thing about politics or diet or spirituality.
>>
>> Just as unschooling works the same way for all kinds of kids, it
>> works the same way within all kinds of side-beliefs (or primary
>> beliefs, if that other belief is larger than unschooling in that
>> family), if it will work at all.
>>
>> Unschooling works when the parents are open and energetic and
>> creative and love their kids without a set of reasons to suspect them
>> and limit them and hold them back. That works not because I said it,
>> and not because there are laws at work in the universe that draw it
>> out to work. It works because of human nature. If people go with
>> human nature instead of against it when they're in the parents-of-
>> young-children phases, the results are way bigger than had ever been
>> suggested in anything I had read when Kirby was little. I've seen
>> it in many other families whose kids are young adults now. We
>> really, truly are onto something wonderful and it works by itself,
>> once you get it working, in normal houses without magic requirements
>> and without special equipment.
>>
>> Sandra
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
I had meant to bring up something kind of difficult to discuss here,
and others probably know more about it than I do.
Sometimes people come here and insult me with the charge that I'm
probably NOT nice to my kids, because I'm not nice to every
belligerent poster. They want to "unschool" unschooling. Well
fine, but that's going to involve doing their own reading and
questioning and experimentation and analysis. I think they want to
be spoon-fed just enough unschooling that they won't spit up, and
hope that's enough to take home and make it work.
It's not.
To unschool, people need to know and see and hear and think TONS more
than they'll use, at first. They need to have so much they can pick
and choose and they always have back-up plans, and the lists of
things to do are so long they'll never do them all, that that's
okay. (That's what I think is ideal, anyway.)
So I was told that on lists where people are discussing "NVC" (non-
violent communication), it can't really be discussed in any depth
because they're not REALLY discussing the ideas, they're practicing.
If anyone criticizes or questions, they're shushed. If that's so,
maybe it's what people are assuming or hoping will happen on this list.
Any insight would be appreciated. I have no interest in NVC except
as an odd exercise in (it seems to me) living by scripts and rules
instead of by direct observation and principle. I could be wrong,
but it really don't see how it could be a good place to live. Maybe
a place to pass through on the way to living directly and choosing
one's own words from all the words in the world.
Sandra
and others probably know more about it than I do.
Sometimes people come here and insult me with the charge that I'm
probably NOT nice to my kids, because I'm not nice to every
belligerent poster. They want to "unschool" unschooling. Well
fine, but that's going to involve doing their own reading and
questioning and experimentation and analysis. I think they want to
be spoon-fed just enough unschooling that they won't spit up, and
hope that's enough to take home and make it work.
It's not.
To unschool, people need to know and see and hear and think TONS more
than they'll use, at first. They need to have so much they can pick
and choose and they always have back-up plans, and the lists of
things to do are so long they'll never do them all, that that's
okay. (That's what I think is ideal, anyway.)
So I was told that on lists where people are discussing "NVC" (non-
violent communication), it can't really be discussed in any depth
because they're not REALLY discussing the ideas, they're practicing.
If anyone criticizes or questions, they're shushed. If that's so,
maybe it's what people are assuming or hoping will happen on this list.
Any insight would be appreciated. I have no interest in NVC except
as an odd exercise in (it seems to me) living by scripts and rules
instead of by direct observation and principle. I could be wrong,
but it really don't see how it could be a good place to live. Maybe
a place to pass through on the way to living directly and choosing
one's own words from all the words in the world.
Sandra
k
Some people's style of learning may require a person in their environ or
community for understanding unschooling. That can be had at conferences,
non-cons, and other meetings and meetups, as well as by phone, chat, email
counseling but it costs money. Otherwise, the abundant tons and tons of
free and freely accessible materials and advice, thoughts, and volunteer
efforts online makes unschooling doable for many families, and we can have
it pretty much at the touch of a few keys and clicks ... 24/7 if we count
list archives and blogs and articles and websites.
Unschooling doesn't claim to work with only one parent behind it but says
it's best supported when both parents are devoted to it. As committed as I
am to unschooling, I can attest anecdotally to the fact that it doesn't work
in a family with only one parent who wants it. It's improving to the degree
that Brian feels convinced of unschooling and naturally more able to support
it.
If only one wavering parent partly supports unschooling and thinks that for
the most part another parenting style works better for their family, that's
another story. I hope that as many unschooling concepts as possible will
improve their children's lives even when the more radical aspects of
unschooling aren't embraced.
Quite a few unschoolers are passionate and confident about how unschooling
works. To me, that's better than nice. But the moderators of this list
*are* nice, and by that I mean that they are kind even though they don't
respect or incorporate every viewpoint.
~Katherine
community for understanding unschooling. That can be had at conferences,
non-cons, and other meetings and meetups, as well as by phone, chat, email
counseling but it costs money. Otherwise, the abundant tons and tons of
free and freely accessible materials and advice, thoughts, and volunteer
efforts online makes unschooling doable for many families, and we can have
it pretty much at the touch of a few keys and clicks ... 24/7 if we count
list archives and blogs and articles and websites.
Unschooling doesn't claim to work with only one parent behind it but says
it's best supported when both parents are devoted to it. As committed as I
am to unschooling, I can attest anecdotally to the fact that it doesn't work
in a family with only one parent who wants it. It's improving to the degree
that Brian feels convinced of unschooling and naturally more able to support
it.
If only one wavering parent partly supports unschooling and thinks that for
the most part another parenting style works better for their family, that's
another story. I hope that as many unschooling concepts as possible will
improve their children's lives even when the more radical aspects of
unschooling aren't embraced.
Quite a few unschoolers are passionate and confident about how unschooling
works. To me, that's better than nice. But the moderators of this list
*are* nice, and by that I mean that they are kind even though they don't
respect or incorporate every viewpoint.
~Katherine
On 10/12/08, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> I had meant to bring up something kind of difficult to discuss here,
> and others probably know more about it than I do.
>
> Sometimes people come here and insult me with the charge that I'm
> probably NOT nice to my kids, because I'm not nice to every
> belligerent poster. They want to "unschool" unschooling. Well
> fine, but that's going to involve doing their own reading and
> questioning and experimentation and analysis. I think they want to
> be spoon-fed just enough unschooling that they won't spit up, and
> hope that's enough to take home and make it work.
>
> It's not.
>
> To unschool, people need to know and see and hear and think TONS more
> than they'll use, at first. They need to have so much they can pick
> and choose and they always have back-up plans, and the lists of
> things to do are so long they'll never do them all, that that's
> okay. (That's what I think is ideal, anyway.)
>
> So I was told that on lists where people are discussing "NVC" (non-
> violent communication), it can't really be discussed in any depth
> because they're not REALLY discussing the ideas, they're practicing.
> If anyone criticizes or questions, they're shushed. If that's so,
> maybe it's what people are assuming or hoping will happen on this list.
>
> Any insight would be appreciated. I have no interest in NVC except
> as an odd exercise in (it seems to me) living by scripts and rules
> instead of by direct observation and principle. I could be wrong,
> but it really don't see how it could be a good place to live. Maybe
> a place to pass through on the way to living directly and choosing
> one's own words from all the words in the world.
>
> Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Margaret
This doesn't really answer the questions you brought up, but it is a
hopefully relevant story that I wanted to share.
We had a big discussion about communication styles on a regional list
that I am on (and started). I created it wanting it to be a list with
people who were trying to be radical unschoolers and wanting to be
able to be frank and not smile and nod when people talk about how
threatening to take all their child's toys away is part of how they
unschool. I really like the clear discussions here and on lists like
this and they are a huge part of the reason that I am doing things the
way I am now. At any rate, on this list I posted something that was
similar to what I would have posted here (even gentler, I thought) and
then, from my point of view, the shit hit the fan. It really upset
several people and we talked a lot about how to talk to each other.
After a lot of discussion, it seemed that there are some people for
whom this style of discussion is very unpleasant. I find it clear,
direct and uncluttered. I prefer it this way. Several other people
on the list did not feel that way. I remember reading a few people on
a local list say that they don't find reading the big unschooling
lists helpful as it just makes them feel bad. As much as I wanted to
create a regional list with that same feel (only you get to meet every
now and then) it seemed as though there were a lot of people who
wanted to be on the list and wanted to be radical unschoolers, but
found that discussion style too difficult.
There was a good part of me ready to say that this was the list I
made, darn it, and that I don't care if there are 5 people in it or
50, this is the way it is going to be... but I thought about the
people on the list and how they really do seem to be wanting to
unschool and they are wanting be better unschoolers and how they want
to connect with each other and I let go of the list that I had
imagined and looked at the one I had. I wasn't willing to go along
with the idea of radically unschooling each other, and I wasn't very
interested in saying that we all should try NVC. What I was willing to
do was to try hard to be gentler in the way that I said things and to
try to point out that I am pulling the idea out and talking about it
more generally. Not going to change what I am saying, just how I am
saying it. I also asked that people not post about things until they
are ready to have them critically examined. It is important to me that
the content isn't watered down, but on that list where people are
there to make friends as well as talk about unschooling, I'm trying
harder to use a style that is more comfortable for people. It is not
a comfortable style for me and it takes much longer to write and
rewrite things, but I think that in this case it could be a more
effective way of advocating unschooling so I am trying.
That said, I LOVE that this list is exactly the way that it is. I
like that it is clear and direct. I like that there is the idea that
there are better ways to do things. I don't agree with the idea that
all ideas and ways of doing things are equally good and we are all
just different and should respect each other and I am glad that this
is not the way things are here. I like being able to say what I think
and it is so much nicer to have someone disagree with me than to have
them say that it hurt their feelings and to have to address that. I
don't want to talk about how that idea makes someone feel. I want to
talk about the idea.
Margaret
hopefully relevant story that I wanted to share.
We had a big discussion about communication styles on a regional list
that I am on (and started). I created it wanting it to be a list with
people who were trying to be radical unschoolers and wanting to be
able to be frank and not smile and nod when people talk about how
threatening to take all their child's toys away is part of how they
unschool. I really like the clear discussions here and on lists like
this and they are a huge part of the reason that I am doing things the
way I am now. At any rate, on this list I posted something that was
similar to what I would have posted here (even gentler, I thought) and
then, from my point of view, the shit hit the fan. It really upset
several people and we talked a lot about how to talk to each other.
After a lot of discussion, it seemed that there are some people for
whom this style of discussion is very unpleasant. I find it clear,
direct and uncluttered. I prefer it this way. Several other people
on the list did not feel that way. I remember reading a few people on
a local list say that they don't find reading the big unschooling
lists helpful as it just makes them feel bad. As much as I wanted to
create a regional list with that same feel (only you get to meet every
now and then) it seemed as though there were a lot of people who
wanted to be on the list and wanted to be radical unschoolers, but
found that discussion style too difficult.
There was a good part of me ready to say that this was the list I
made, darn it, and that I don't care if there are 5 people in it or
50, this is the way it is going to be... but I thought about the
people on the list and how they really do seem to be wanting to
unschool and they are wanting be better unschoolers and how they want
to connect with each other and I let go of the list that I had
imagined and looked at the one I had. I wasn't willing to go along
with the idea of radically unschooling each other, and I wasn't very
interested in saying that we all should try NVC. What I was willing to
do was to try hard to be gentler in the way that I said things and to
try to point out that I am pulling the idea out and talking about it
more generally. Not going to change what I am saying, just how I am
saying it. I also asked that people not post about things until they
are ready to have them critically examined. It is important to me that
the content isn't watered down, but on that list where people are
there to make friends as well as talk about unschooling, I'm trying
harder to use a style that is more comfortable for people. It is not
a comfortable style for me and it takes much longer to write and
rewrite things, but I think that in this case it could be a more
effective way of advocating unschooling so I am trying.
That said, I LOVE that this list is exactly the way that it is. I
like that it is clear and direct. I like that there is the idea that
there are better ways to do things. I don't agree with the idea that
all ideas and ways of doing things are equally good and we are all
just different and should respect each other and I am glad that this
is not the way things are here. I like being able to say what I think
and it is so much nicer to have someone disagree with me than to have
them say that it hurt their feelings and to have to address that. I
don't want to talk about how that idea makes someone feel. I want to
talk about the idea.
Margaret
On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 6:34 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> I had meant to bring up something kind of difficult to discuss here,
> and others probably know more about it than I do.
>
> Sometimes people come here and insult me with the charge that I'm
> probably NOT nice to my kids, because I'm not nice to every
> belligerent poster. They want to "unschool" unschooling. Well
> fine, but that's going to involve doing their own reading and
> questioning and experimentation and analysis. I think they want to
> be spoon-fed just enough unschooling that they won't spit up, and
> hope that's enough to take home and make it work.
>
> It's not.
>
> To unschool, people need to know and see and hear and think TONS more
> than they'll use, at first. They need to have so much they can pick
> and choose and they always have back-up plans, and the lists of
> things to do are so long they'll never do them all, that that's
> okay. (That's what I think is ideal, anyway.)
>
> So I was told that on lists where people are discussing "NVC" (non-
> violent communication), it can't really be discussed in any depth
> because they're not REALLY discussing the ideas, they're practicing.
> If anyone criticizes or questions, they're shushed. If that's so,
> maybe it's what people are assuming or hoping will happen on this list.
>
> Any insight would be appreciated. I have no interest in NVC except
> as an odd exercise in (it seems to me) living by scripts and rules
> instead of by direct observation and principle. I could be wrong,
> but it really don't see how it could be a good place to live. Maybe
> a place to pass through on the way to living directly and choosing
> one's own words from all the words in the world.
>
> Sandra
Joanna Murphy
Margaret wrote:
similar experience in my own little corner of the world, with all the
details of Margaret's experience, including a fair amount of
badmouthing of the national discussion lists and radical
unschoolers. The worst was mainly from a person who is not
interested in examining and deepening her ideas about unschooling and
was obviously very threatened by critical examination. It was a
tough lesson to learn that this kind of discussion is few and far
between and gave me a brand new appreciation for the kind of c***
that Sandra puts up with!!
It seemed to make sense to us to drop the critical discussion aspect
since ours is mainly a face-to-face group.
Joanna
> There was a good part of me ready to say that this was the list Iwant
> made, darn it, and that I don't care if there are 5 people in it or
> 50, this is the way it is going to be... but I thought about the
> people on the list and how they really do seem to be wanting to
> unschool and they are wanting be better unschoolers and how they
> to connect with each other and I let go of the list that I hadI could have written this same e-mail. I've recently had a very
> imagined and looked at the one I had.
similar experience in my own little corner of the world, with all the
details of Margaret's experience, including a fair amount of
badmouthing of the national discussion lists and radical
unschoolers. The worst was mainly from a person who is not
interested in examining and deepening her ideas about unschooling and
was obviously very threatened by critical examination. It was a
tough lesson to learn that this kind of discussion is few and far
between and gave me a brand new appreciation for the kind of c***
that Sandra puts up with!!
It seemed to make sense to us to drop the critical discussion aspect
since ours is mainly a face-to-face group.
Joanna
Sandra Dodd
-=-At any rate, on this list I posted something that was
similar to what I would have posted here (even gentler, I thought) and
then, from my point of view, the shit hit the fan-=-
That happened on the statewide list I used to maintain here. I would
go six months without a single mention of unschooling--didn't have a
sigline with a link or ANYthing, but when I would mention it,
someone would always rise up like a banshee and make a huge scene.
Finally, I quit in a large huff and turned it over to someone else
and left that day. It was ridiculous that those who didn't even have
the wherewithal to create a yahoolist wanted to tell me how to run
one after I had been unschooling and running yahoolists for longer
than they had even been parents.
The straw that broke the camel's back on that one was my objection to
a joke that had been posted for no good reason that made mean fun of
teenagers. I said I didn't have problems with my teens and I didn't
think other unschoolers did either, or something. (Oh. I saved it.
Not the exact words, but notes: "On a New Mexico list for
homeschoolers I created and maintained for years, someone put up a
quote from e-Bay (- great source of quotes- :-/) that said raising a
teenager was like nailing jello to a tree. I objected to it, lightly,
said I wasn't having problems with my unschooled teens, and was
hooted down by some people insulting me and unschooling. The upshot
was I gave the list to someone with thicker skin and newer energy,
and I quit the whole list. If on a homeschooling list it's to be fine
to insult those whole people to whom we have supposedly dedicated our
lives, there are problems with homeschoolers." <A HREF="http://
sandradodd.com/notfunny">halfway down there</a>
-=-I remember reading a few people on a local list say that they
don't find reading the big unschooling lists helpful as it just makes
them feel bad. -=-
Some people should feel bad. If they want to be with other moms who
are laughing at children instead of moving toward being kinder to
their own children, they should be ashamed. And then they should
rise up out of that momentary shame in such a way that they never
have to feel it again.
-=-There was a good part of me ready to say that this was the list I
made, darn it, and that I don't care if there are 5 people in it or
50, this is the way it is going to be... but I thought about the
people on the list and how they really do seem to be wanting to
unschool and they are wanting be better unschoolers and how they want
to connect with each other and I let go of the list that I had
imagined and looked at the one I had.-=-
Maybe you could remind those who do seem eager to learn more faster
than they could join this list or one of the others.
-=-I like being able to say what I think and it is so much nicer to
have someone disagree with me than to have them say that it hurt
their feelings and to have to address that. -=-
I smiled when I read that, and I'm not sure why. Maybe it's because
I'm not afraid of strong feelings and I know a lot of people are.
-=-I don't want to talk about how that idea makes someone feel. I
want to talk about the idea.-=-
I'm happy to take a side moment to suggest to someone that if she
can't even discuss unschooling without getting all emotional, she's
going to have a hell of a time DOING it, and that she needs to buck
up and do things that make her kids feel better instead of wanting
people to change their ways so she feels more comfortable being a
half-assed unschooler.
I don't guess that can be said within "NVC" guidelines, but then
that's not my religion and so I don't have to follow their script.
Is NVC a way to perpetuate people's feelings of fragility? Fragile
moms can't be strong moms.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
similar to what I would have posted here (even gentler, I thought) and
then, from my point of view, the shit hit the fan-=-
That happened on the statewide list I used to maintain here. I would
go six months without a single mention of unschooling--didn't have a
sigline with a link or ANYthing, but when I would mention it,
someone would always rise up like a banshee and make a huge scene.
Finally, I quit in a large huff and turned it over to someone else
and left that day. It was ridiculous that those who didn't even have
the wherewithal to create a yahoolist wanted to tell me how to run
one after I had been unschooling and running yahoolists for longer
than they had even been parents.
The straw that broke the camel's back on that one was my objection to
a joke that had been posted for no good reason that made mean fun of
teenagers. I said I didn't have problems with my teens and I didn't
think other unschoolers did either, or something. (Oh. I saved it.
Not the exact words, but notes: "On a New Mexico list for
homeschoolers I created and maintained for years, someone put up a
quote from e-Bay (- great source of quotes- :-/) that said raising a
teenager was like nailing jello to a tree. I objected to it, lightly,
said I wasn't having problems with my unschooled teens, and was
hooted down by some people insulting me and unschooling. The upshot
was I gave the list to someone with thicker skin and newer energy,
and I quit the whole list. If on a homeschooling list it's to be fine
to insult those whole people to whom we have supposedly dedicated our
lives, there are problems with homeschoolers." <A HREF="http://
sandradodd.com/notfunny">halfway down there</a>
-=-I remember reading a few people on a local list say that they
don't find reading the big unschooling lists helpful as it just makes
them feel bad. -=-
Some people should feel bad. If they want to be with other moms who
are laughing at children instead of moving toward being kinder to
their own children, they should be ashamed. And then they should
rise up out of that momentary shame in such a way that they never
have to feel it again.
-=-There was a good part of me ready to say that this was the list I
made, darn it, and that I don't care if there are 5 people in it or
50, this is the way it is going to be... but I thought about the
people on the list and how they really do seem to be wanting to
unschool and they are wanting be better unschoolers and how they want
to connect with each other and I let go of the list that I had
imagined and looked at the one I had.-=-
Maybe you could remind those who do seem eager to learn more faster
than they could join this list or one of the others.
-=-I like being able to say what I think and it is so much nicer to
have someone disagree with me than to have them say that it hurt
their feelings and to have to address that. -=-
I smiled when I read that, and I'm not sure why. Maybe it's because
I'm not afraid of strong feelings and I know a lot of people are.
-=-I don't want to talk about how that idea makes someone feel. I
want to talk about the idea.-=-
I'm happy to take a side moment to suggest to someone that if she
can't even discuss unschooling without getting all emotional, she's
going to have a hell of a time DOING it, and that she needs to buck
up and do things that make her kids feel better instead of wanting
people to change their ways so she feels more comfortable being a
half-assed unschooler.
I don't guess that can be said within "NVC" guidelines, but then
that's not my religion and so I don't have to follow their script.
Is NVC a way to perpetuate people's feelings of fragility? Fragile
moms can't be strong moms.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-The worst was mainly from a person who is not
interested in examining and deepening her ideas about unschooling and
was obviously very threatened by critical examination. It was a
tough lesson to learn that this kind of discussion is few and far
between and gave me a brand new appreciation for the kind of c***
that Sandra puts up with!!-=-
Well thanks, I guess! :-)
I think many things help me put up with crap:
I've seen it before, more than once.
I've seen the month-later responses, and two-year-late responses, so
I have a lot of perspective on early flailing.
I'm confident. My kids are proof that I'm not spouting nonsense (and
lots of other teens and young adults I know personally in unschooling
families are further evidence).
It's not that I NEVER get my feelings hurt, but I'm unlikely to have
my feelings hurt by the Jr.-High-style comebacks that come from
people who clearly just want me to hush because unschooling does seem
cool but they're unwilling to really examine it, preferring to
declare whatever school at home combo they've concocted as being the
coolest possible thing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
interested in examining and deepening her ideas about unschooling and
was obviously very threatened by critical examination. It was a
tough lesson to learn that this kind of discussion is few and far
between and gave me a brand new appreciation for the kind of c***
that Sandra puts up with!!-=-
Well thanks, I guess! :-)
I think many things help me put up with crap:
I've seen it before, more than once.
I've seen the month-later responses, and two-year-late responses, so
I have a lot of perspective on early flailing.
I'm confident. My kids are proof that I'm not spouting nonsense (and
lots of other teens and young adults I know personally in unschooling
families are further evidence).
It's not that I NEVER get my feelings hurt, but I'm unlikely to have
my feelings hurt by the Jr.-High-style comebacks that come from
people who clearly just want me to hush because unschooling does seem
cool but they're unwilling to really examine it, preferring to
declare whatever school at home combo they've concocted as being the
coolest possible thing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
Can I say it? Where almost anybody and everybody can read it?
One of the reasons it's hard to find actual radical unschoolers in real life
is that once people hear the cool way that some folks are able to interact
with their children, they want that and some would like to believe peaceful
parent/child interactions exist but don't. Like Sandra says, they want some
funny little badge of honor (which actually *is* nonexistent) without having
to change the way they're doing things. We can have peaceful parent/child
interactions if we tweak or outright change our thinking, and without
change, we can't.
It's funny that we can physically compel kids into situations that they
don't want and the minute the way to have peaceful interactions with our
kids is suggested, there's offense! This rather than being compelled to
change our behavior, rather than being put into situations we don't want,
which happens to many kids everyday. Shoo... go off and play and let me
talk with the girls for one stinky li'l minute, will ya? That's what
playtime at the park is about for some moms. The kids can't socialize much
with their parents because they're pushed off.
It's dangerous on a local list to insist on radical unschooling or in some
instances to even mention unschooling. It gets a person on a sort of
blacklist, where (just like the sandbox at school) the politics of a
person's social life become really messed up due to someone's cattiness and
the feeling that if they don't stab the other in the back, they'll get stab
in the back and blah blah blah on and on it goes.
The irony is that kids are handled with force everyday in local groups yet
the parents demand to be handled with kid gloves (hey, unintentional pun).
My decision has been to be myself and talk about unschooling as I see it
without thinking of it as an offense because something this great is not
offensive, it's wonderful. If unschooling gets me unliked on the local
level, ok. If unschooling is attractive to others on the local level and
they want to hang out with me for unschooling support, ok too.
~Katherine
One of the reasons it's hard to find actual radical unschoolers in real life
is that once people hear the cool way that some folks are able to interact
with their children, they want that and some would like to believe peaceful
parent/child interactions exist but don't. Like Sandra says, they want some
funny little badge of honor (which actually *is* nonexistent) without having
to change the way they're doing things. We can have peaceful parent/child
interactions if we tweak or outright change our thinking, and without
change, we can't.
It's funny that we can physically compel kids into situations that they
don't want and the minute the way to have peaceful interactions with our
kids is suggested, there's offense! This rather than being compelled to
change our behavior, rather than being put into situations we don't want,
which happens to many kids everyday. Shoo... go off and play and let me
talk with the girls for one stinky li'l minute, will ya? That's what
playtime at the park is about for some moms. The kids can't socialize much
with their parents because they're pushed off.
It's dangerous on a local list to insist on radical unschooling or in some
instances to even mention unschooling. It gets a person on a sort of
blacklist, where (just like the sandbox at school) the politics of a
person's social life become really messed up due to someone's cattiness and
the feeling that if they don't stab the other in the back, they'll get stab
in the back and blah blah blah on and on it goes.
The irony is that kids are handled with force everyday in local groups yet
the parents demand to be handled with kid gloves (hey, unintentional pun).
My decision has been to be myself and talk about unschooling as I see it
without thinking of it as an offense because something this great is not
offensive, it's wonderful. If unschooling gets me unliked on the local
level, ok. If unschooling is attractive to others on the local level and
they want to hang out with me for unschooling support, ok too.
~Katherine
On 10/22/08, Margaret <margaretz@...> wrote:
> This doesn't really answer the questions you brought up, but it is a
> hopefully relevant story that I wanted to share.
>
> We had a big discussion about communication styles on a regional list
> that I am on (and started). I created it wanting it to be a list with
> people who were trying to be radical unschoolers and wanting to be
> able to be frank and not smile and nod when people talk about how
> threatening to take all their child's toys away is part of how they
> unschool. I really like the clear discussions here and on lists like
> this and they are a huge part of the reason that I am doing things the
> way I am now. At any rate, on this list I posted something that was
> similar to what I would have posted here (even gentler, I thought) and
> then, from my point of view, the shit hit the fan. It really upset
> several people and we talked a lot about how to talk to each other.
>
> After a lot of discussion, it seemed that there are some people for
> whom this style of discussion is very unpleasant. I find it clear,
> direct and uncluttered. I prefer it this way. Several other people
> on the list did not feel that way. I remember reading a few people on
> a local list say that they don't find reading the big unschooling
> lists helpful as it just makes them feel bad. As much as I wanted to
> create a regional list with that same feel (only you get to meet every
> now and then) it seemed as though there were a lot of people who
> wanted to be on the list and wanted to be radical unschoolers, but
> found that discussion style too difficult.
>
> There was a good part of me ready to say that this was the list I
> made, darn it, and that I don't care if there are 5 people in it or
> 50, this is the way it is going to be... but I thought about the
> people on the list and how they really do seem to be wanting to
> unschool and they are wanting be better unschoolers and how they want
> to connect with each other and I let go of the list that I had
> imagined and looked at the one I had. I wasn't willing to go along
> with the idea of radically unschooling each other, and I wasn't very
> interested in saying that we all should try NVC. What I was willing to
> do was to try hard to be gentler in the way that I said things and to
> try to point out that I am pulling the idea out and talking about it
> more generally. Not going to change what I am saying, just how I am
> saying it. I also asked that people not post about things until they
> are ready to have them critically examined. It is important to me that
> the content isn't watered down, but on that list where people are
> there to make friends as well as talk about unschooling, I'm trying
> harder to use a style that is more comfortable for people. It is not
> a comfortable style for me and it takes much longer to write and
> rewrite things, but I think that in this case it could be a more
> effective way of advocating unschooling so I am trying.
>
> That said, I LOVE that this list is exactly the way that it is. I
> like that it is clear and direct. I like that there is the idea that
> there are better ways to do things. I don't agree with the idea that
> all ideas and ways of doing things are equally good and we are all
> just different and should respect each other and I am glad that this
> is not the way things are here. I like being able to say what I think
> and it is so much nicer to have someone disagree with me than to have
> them say that it hurt their feelings and to have to address that. I
> don't want to talk about how that idea makes someone feel. I want to
> talk about the idea.
>
> Margaret
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/22/2008 4:53:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
katherand@... writes:
<<<It's dangerous on a local list to insist on radical unschooling or in some
instances to even mention unschooling. It gets a person on a sort of
blacklist, where (just like the sandbox at school) the politics of a
person's social life become really messed up due to someone's cattiness and
the feeling that if they don't stab the other in the back, they'll get stab
in the back and blah blah blah on and on it goes.>>>
Which is another vote, in my book, for hanging out with unschoolers. They
are the people who understand when you pause the adult interaction to help a
child. They will play with their kids along side you. They will not insist on
empty "I'm sorry"s or talk in poodle voices or be small and petty and
penalizing to kids. Especially important when it's younger kids. I'm seeing as Wyl is
getting older that it isn't so Important to hang with a group of unschoolers
or really relaxed parenting folks who are okay with unschoolers. But it's
still nice. :~) With Storm, we still do much better and have a more relaxed,
fun time with unschoolers.
Peace,
De
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites,
no registration required and great graphics – check it out!
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http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
katherand@... writes:
<<<It's dangerous on a local list to insist on radical unschooling or in some
instances to even mention unschooling. It gets a person on a sort of
blacklist, where (just like the sandbox at school) the politics of a
person's social life become really messed up due to someone's cattiness and
the feeling that if they don't stab the other in the back, they'll get stab
in the back and blah blah blah on and on it goes.>>>
Which is another vote, in my book, for hanging out with unschoolers. They
are the people who understand when you pause the adult interaction to help a
child. They will play with their kids along side you. They will not insist on
empty "I'm sorry"s or talk in poodle voices or be small and petty and
penalizing to kids. Especially important when it's younger kids. I'm seeing as Wyl is
getting older that it isn't so Important to hang with a group of unschoolers
or really relaxed parenting folks who are okay with unschoolers. But it's
still nice. :~) With Storm, we still do much better and have a more relaxed,
fun time with unschoolers.
Peace,
De
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites,
no registration required and great graphics – check it out!
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1211202682x1200689022/aol?redir=
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-This rather than being compelled to
change our behavior, rather than being put into situations we don't
want,
which happens to many kids everyday.-=-
We can't compel them to change, though. We can maybe persuade or
inspire them to choose to change.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
change our behavior, rather than being put into situations we don't
want,
which happens to many kids everyday.-=-
We can't compel them to change, though. We can maybe persuade or
inspire them to choose to change.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Margaret
The list I started was for the state of Washington but I am also on a
local list that has the word "unschooler" in the title, but it is open
to people who are not unschoolers ("unschooling friendly
homeschoolers"). I have found that the local sort-of-unschooling list
is just not the place to discuss unschooling. It always seems to
backfire, so I now just send a short blurb with links to a page on
Sandra's site or Joyce's site if they are interested in the
unschooling take on the situation. Recently we had someone advocate
baby training and someone else advocate spanking. My internal
response was "why the hell are you on this list?!" but on this list it
is not OK to say that.
The regional list that I started is a radical unschooling list (it's
in the title and it's in the list description) so we were able to keep
talking about things (even after the dust up) but with some compromise
on both sides... but I am only trying to change the form and style,
not content. Also, I hadn't really meant it to be a discussion list,
but there were a lot of people who wanted to discuss things. I do
understand the point about how some parents should feel bad etc... but
these people do actually seem to be trying to be radical unschoolers
which makes it easier to be happy about trying to say things a little
more gently. The basic message is still the same, though. I don't
care if we have the discussions or not, but if we do it isn't going to
be a tea party.
local list that has the word "unschooler" in the title, but it is open
to people who are not unschoolers ("unschooling friendly
homeschoolers"). I have found that the local sort-of-unschooling list
is just not the place to discuss unschooling. It always seems to
backfire, so I now just send a short blurb with links to a page on
Sandra's site or Joyce's site if they are interested in the
unschooling take on the situation. Recently we had someone advocate
baby training and someone else advocate spanking. My internal
response was "why the hell are you on this list?!" but on this list it
is not OK to say that.
The regional list that I started is a radical unschooling list (it's
in the title and it's in the list description) so we were able to keep
talking about things (even after the dust up) but with some compromise
on both sides... but I am only trying to change the form and style,
not content. Also, I hadn't really meant it to be a discussion list,
but there were a lot of people who wanted to discuss things. I do
understand the point about how some parents should feel bad etc... but
these people do actually seem to be trying to be radical unschoolers
which makes it easier to be happy about trying to say things a little
more gently. The basic message is still the same, though. I don't
care if we have the discussions or not, but if we do it isn't going to
be a tea party.
On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 11:03 PM, Joanna Murphy <ridingmom@...> wrote:
> I could have written this same e-mail. I've recently had a very
> similar experience in my own little corner of the world, with all the
> details of Margaret's experience, including a fair amount of
> badmouthing of the national discussion lists and radical
> unschoolers. The worst was mainly from a person who is not
> interested in examining and deepening her ideas about unschooling and
> was obviously very threatened by critical examination. It was a
> tough lesson to learn that this kind of discussion is few and far
> between and gave me a brand new appreciation for the kind of c***
> that Sandra puts up with!!
>
> It seemed to make sense to us to drop the critical discussion aspect
> since ours is mainly a face-to-face group.
>
> Joanna
Jenny C
... but
them in real life. So, since I'm a nice person in real life, and I'm
also nice online, even if someone else doesn't think so because they
don't agree with me, then it doesn't hurt to just say what I mean and
really mean it.
When I've been outspoken on our local list, I've been shot down by other
members on the list with that whole hurt feelings, we have to do best by
our families thing. The moderator is ok with me saying what I'm saying,
she's said so, and each and every time this happens, I get more private
responses in agreement than I had public ones in opposition. Sooooo, I
absolutely don't say stuff I don't mean and I really dislike pussy
footing around something on the off chance that I hurt someone's
feelings.
On local lists it seems the moderator acts more like a hostess offering
up more food and drinks, saying a few things here and there, but letting
the guests mix it up.
> these people do actually seem to be trying to be radical unschoolersMy take on it is, that if it's a local list, eventually you may meet
> which makes it easier to be happy about trying to say things a little
> more gently. The basic message is still the same, though. I don't
> care if we have the discussions or not, but if we do it isn't going to
> be a tea party.
>
them in real life. So, since I'm a nice person in real life, and I'm
also nice online, even if someone else doesn't think so because they
don't agree with me, then it doesn't hurt to just say what I mean and
really mean it.
When I've been outspoken on our local list, I've been shot down by other
members on the list with that whole hurt feelings, we have to do best by
our families thing. The moderator is ok with me saying what I'm saying,
she's said so, and each and every time this happens, I get more private
responses in agreement than I had public ones in opposition. Sooooo, I
absolutely don't say stuff I don't mean and I really dislike pussy
footing around something on the off chance that I hurt someone's
feelings.
On local lists it seems the moderator acts more like a hostess offering
up more food and drinks, saying a few things here and there, but letting
the guests mix it up.