Receptivity
Sandra Dodd
I think I need a new page on my unschooling site. I'd like help from
anyone here who has advice or personal experience with the difference
it can make to read/listen and then try things out and think, as
opposed to writing and writing what's already happened and cataloging
one's fears in detail.
If I have a page designed to encourage and soothe the people who are
in outpour mode, it will be easier for them and easier for the list.
Advice about how this list can be seen and used best would help too.
I've had this for years, but I could use more.
(Joyce wrote this and it resides at
http://sandradodd.com/lists/faq )
The list is about ideas, not about people.
Think of ideas like balls and the list like a ball court. If someone
tosses an idea worth discussing into the court it's going to get
batted about. At that point what's going on is no longer about the
person who tossed the idea in. It's about the idea and how well and
cleanly it's being tossed about. (Unless the tosser keeps jumping in
and grabbing the idea ball saying "Mine!")
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
anyone here who has advice or personal experience with the difference
it can make to read/listen and then try things out and think, as
opposed to writing and writing what's already happened and cataloging
one's fears in detail.
If I have a page designed to encourage and soothe the people who are
in outpour mode, it will be easier for them and easier for the list.
Advice about how this list can be seen and used best would help too.
I've had this for years, but I could use more.
(Joyce wrote this and it resides at
http://sandradodd.com/lists/faq )
The list is about ideas, not about people.
Think of ideas like balls and the list like a ball court. If someone
tosses an idea worth discussing into the court it's going to get
batted about. At that point what's going on is no longer about the
person who tossed the idea in. It's about the idea and how well and
cleanly it's being tossed about. (Unless the tosser keeps jumping in
and grabbing the idea ball saying "Mine!")
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
Fears, complaints, worries, negativity, gripes, gossip..... rain rain rain
and more rain. You don't have to air them. Having them is natural and
somewhat unavoidable. Having drama about them is avoidable.
Just read another Joyce gem about that very thing. Here it is:
so easy to fall into the trap of negative thinking. Somehow it feels
satisfying to release the anger and let the universe know we're
angry. But it doesn't help. In the moment it might feel like a pot
letting off steam, but in the long run it's really just adding steam
to an already steamy room. It's good to work at letting go of the
frustration at what we can't change to help us help ourselves, so we
aren't getting in the way of our own happiness.And what helps even
more than letting go of the frustration and anger is seeking out the
good and the parts you love about right now.<<<<
The above applies to the subject at hand and it's *central* to unschooling.
As in vital, necessary and essential.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and more rain. You don't have to air them. Having them is natural and
somewhat unavoidable. Having drama about them is avoidable.
Just read another Joyce gem about that very thing. Here it is:
>>>>>Sometimes it rains. Getting angry about the rain, getting angry thatit isn't sunny just adds more misery. This is obvious *and yet* it's
so easy to fall into the trap of negative thinking. Somehow it feels
satisfying to release the anger and let the universe know we're
angry. But it doesn't help. In the moment it might feel like a pot
letting off steam, but in the long run it's really just adding steam
to an already steamy room. It's good to work at letting go of the
frustration at what we can't change to help us help ourselves, so we
aren't getting in the way of our own happiness.And what helps even
more than letting go of the frustration and anger is seeking out the
good and the parts you love about right now.<<<<
The above applies to the subject at hand and it's *central* to unschooling.
As in vital, necessary and essential.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Margaret
More along the lines of what Joyce wrote...
This is something that I just posted to a regional list that I just
started about how I wanted things to work on that list. This took
place after a discussion about limiting food choices because of the
mother's desire not to buy certain kinds of food and other products
(organic, made in certain countries, from large stores, etc):
"My intention, when making this list, was for the philosophical
discussion to be more along the lines of a list like AlwaysLearning.
It is about the idea, not the person. Ad hominem attacks on someone
would be incredibly inappropriate, but at the same time it is fine to
disagree with someone's idea... even if that idea is presented in the
form of a description of how they do things.
My intention was not to make a support list where everyone has to say
that anything that anyone does is hunky-dory. This ties into what
[a listmember] mentioned about respect. I do respect that everyone has the
right to raise their own children and make decisions about how things
work in their families. That doesn't mean, though, that I have to
respect (in the sense that I esteem and hold a high opinion of)
absolutely anything that anyone says and everything that they do
simply because they are on this list. I expect, for example, that
[another list member] probably does not respect and hold in esteem the
fact that I
choose to shop at Target :) She doesn't have to. Calling me names or
saying that I am bad for doing so (or really even pointing out that
she respects me less for doing so) would be inappropriate and
irrelevant. Discussing how choosing/not choosing to shop at Target
relates to unschooling is totally fine."
Margaret
(it's a list for people in or near Washington State, fyi)
This is something that I just posted to a regional list that I just
started about how I wanted things to work on that list. This took
place after a discussion about limiting food choices because of the
mother's desire not to buy certain kinds of food and other products
(organic, made in certain countries, from large stores, etc):
"My intention, when making this list, was for the philosophical
discussion to be more along the lines of a list like AlwaysLearning.
It is about the idea, not the person. Ad hominem attacks on someone
would be incredibly inappropriate, but at the same time it is fine to
disagree with someone's idea... even if that idea is presented in the
form of a description of how they do things.
My intention was not to make a support list where everyone has to say
that anything that anyone does is hunky-dory. This ties into what
[a listmember] mentioned about respect. I do respect that everyone has the
right to raise their own children and make decisions about how things
work in their families. That doesn't mean, though, that I have to
respect (in the sense that I esteem and hold a high opinion of)
absolutely anything that anyone says and everything that they do
simply because they are on this list. I expect, for example, that
[another list member] probably does not respect and hold in esteem the
fact that I
choose to shop at Target :) She doesn't have to. Calling me names or
saying that I am bad for doing so (or really even pointing out that
she respects me less for doing so) would be inappropriate and
irrelevant. Discussing how choosing/not choosing to shop at Target
relates to unschooling is totally fine."
Margaret
(it's a list for people in or near Washington State, fyi)
On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 9:07 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> I think I need a new page on my unschooling site. I'd like help from
> anyone here who has advice or personal experience with the difference
> it can make to read/listen and then try things out and think, as
> opposed to writing and writing what's already happened and cataloging
> one's fears in detail.
>
> If I have a page designed to encourage and soothe the people who are
> in outpour mode, it will be easier for them and easier for the list.
>
> Advice about how this list can be seen and used best would help too.
> I've had this for years, but I could use more.
>
> (Joyce wrote this and it resides at
> http://sandradodd.com/lists/faq )
>
> The list is about ideas, not about people.
> Think of ideas like balls and the list like a ball court. If someone
> tosses an idea worth discussing into the court it's going to get
> batted about. At that point what's going on is no longer about the
> person who tossed the idea in. It's about the idea and how well and
> cleanly it's being tossed about. (Unless the tosser keeps jumping in
> and grabbing the idea ball saying "Mine!")
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
Margaret
My thoughts on how to get the most out of a list like this.
1) Lurk first. Read old posts and follow new discussions. Do this
for quite a while. This is for two big reasons. The first reason is
that they are relevant. The problems and questions that you are
having are not unique. You can learn a lot by reading these
discussions about other people's lives. Think about them. Let the
ideas stew. Apply them to your life. The second reason has to do
with manners. Get a feel for the tone of the list. This will help
you when you ask questions and when you contribute to the
conversation.
2) When posting questions, keep it short. If you can't do this, maybe
you need to think about your question and your situation a little
more. Long posts explaining a problem get really old. It's good
strategy as well as good manners. If you start with a long winded
post, you won't have as many people (who might have had something
useful to say) read your post which means they won't reply. Those who
do will probably be annoyed that you went on and on and may not be as
nice as they might otherwise have been.
3) Think before you post. Is it helpful or interesting? Is it even
appropriate? Lots of people ask rhetorical questions to help you work
through your problems. Don't post the answers to the group. It's
annoying. If you are responding to advice that you have been give,
don't reply right away. Think about it some more first. Let it stew.
Try it out. "Yeah, but..." responses to advice, explaining why all
the good advice wouldn't work for you don't go over well. If you want
to ignore all the good advice people gave you, please do it quietly.
4) Remember that this is not a fuzzy support group. You have not
joined a fuzzy wuzzy place where you will be loved unconditionally and
treated the way you would treat your child. This is a group to
discuss ideas. It can be blunt. VERY blunt. Remember that it is not
about you, it is about the idea.
1) Lurk first. Read old posts and follow new discussions. Do this
for quite a while. This is for two big reasons. The first reason is
that they are relevant. The problems and questions that you are
having are not unique. You can learn a lot by reading these
discussions about other people's lives. Think about them. Let the
ideas stew. Apply them to your life. The second reason has to do
with manners. Get a feel for the tone of the list. This will help
you when you ask questions and when you contribute to the
conversation.
2) When posting questions, keep it short. If you can't do this, maybe
you need to think about your question and your situation a little
more. Long posts explaining a problem get really old. It's good
strategy as well as good manners. If you start with a long winded
post, you won't have as many people (who might have had something
useful to say) read your post which means they won't reply. Those who
do will probably be annoyed that you went on and on and may not be as
nice as they might otherwise have been.
3) Think before you post. Is it helpful or interesting? Is it even
appropriate? Lots of people ask rhetorical questions to help you work
through your problems. Don't post the answers to the group. It's
annoying. If you are responding to advice that you have been give,
don't reply right away. Think about it some more first. Let it stew.
Try it out. "Yeah, but..." responses to advice, explaining why all
the good advice wouldn't work for you don't go over well. If you want
to ignore all the good advice people gave you, please do it quietly.
4) Remember that this is not a fuzzy support group. You have not
joined a fuzzy wuzzy place where you will be loved unconditionally and
treated the way you would treat your child. This is a group to
discuss ideas. It can be blunt. VERY blunt. Remember that it is not
about you, it is about the idea.
On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 9:07 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> I think I need a new page on my unschooling site. I'd like help from
> anyone here who has advice or personal experience with the difference
> it can make to read/listen and then try things out and think, as
> opposed to writing and writing what's already happened and cataloging
> one's fears in detail.
>
> If I have a page designed to encourage and soothe the people who are
> in outpour mode, it will be easier for them and easier for the list.
>
> Advice about how this list can be seen and used best would help too.
> I've had this for years, but I could use more.
>
> (Joyce wrote this and it resides at
> http://sandradodd.com/lists/faq )
>
> The list is about ideas, not about people.
> Think of ideas like balls and the list like a ball court. If someone
> tosses an idea worth discussing into the court it's going to get
> batted about. At that point what's going on is no longer about the
> person who tossed the idea in. It's about the idea and how well and
> cleanly it's being tossed about. (Unless the tosser keeps jumping in
> and grabbing the idea ball saying "Mine!")
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-If you want
to ignore all the good advice people gave you, please do it quietly.-=-
I love this one. Thanks!
Here's part of the problem. There were two kinda parallel lists, and
they grew out of other lists, and other lists grew out of them. So
there's a flow to all this. But I was on two lists (and only two
lists, as to unschooling), and one has gone quiet lately. That one
(now quiet) had a bunch of rules. This one had only the condition
that if someone bugged me I'd boot her ("trap doors for the
uncooperative").
Over the years, the two lists have come to have just about the same
set of moderators, and hundreds of the same members. So the
expectation is that the two will operate the same way. So the rules
of UnschoolingDiscussion have been oozing over to AlwaysLearning.
But that list was trying not to have blow-ups, and I never much
minded blow-ups myself.
Just sayin'... just for those who are helping me figure out how to
advise new readers.
Maybe an advice page would be sufficient. If people want to ignore
the advice, the rest of us don't need to feel as bad about bopping
them, maybe.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to ignore all the good advice people gave you, please do it quietly.-=-
I love this one. Thanks!
Here's part of the problem. There were two kinda parallel lists, and
they grew out of other lists, and other lists grew out of them. So
there's a flow to all this. But I was on two lists (and only two
lists, as to unschooling), and one has gone quiet lately. That one
(now quiet) had a bunch of rules. This one had only the condition
that if someone bugged me I'd boot her ("trap doors for the
uncooperative").
Over the years, the two lists have come to have just about the same
set of moderators, and hundreds of the same members. So the
expectation is that the two will operate the same way. So the rules
of UnschoolingDiscussion have been oozing over to AlwaysLearning.
But that list was trying not to have blow-ups, and I never much
minded blow-ups myself.
Just sayin'... just for those who are helping me figure out how to
advise new readers.
Maybe an advice page would be sufficient. If people want to ignore
the advice, the rest of us don't need to feel as bad about bopping
them, maybe.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hema A. Bharadwaj
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/38832;_ylc=X3oDMTJyN2pvbmI5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzQ0MTAyNTAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NTQyMTExBG1zZ0lkAzM4ODMyBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyMjI2MTc4MDI->I
wish i had read these well worded points before undertaking conversations
online with some groups. Perhaps this should be posted on the page where
the group is described? I'm not net savvy really and go by the seat of my
pants... more because of lack of time.
Until about a year ago i did not know abotu such groups. I was not a member
of any. And since all my usual conversations/advice seeking was from
real-time-conversations.... it has taken me a long time to adjust to seeking
the same online. The rules, ideas, expression mode, style of writing,
everything makes or breaks the conversation... esp as i'm not a good writer
(yet ;-) i struggle with this.
And now i'm desperate for these online forums/groups because i don't have
any like-minded people near me physically. And i do so want to be able to
connect with people onliine.
anyway... thanks Margaret. have not read the thread... but came accross
yours while scrolling quickly and had to respond.
Hema
Re: Receptivity
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/38832;_ylc=X3oDMTJyN2pvbmI5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzQ0MTAyNTAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NTQyMTExBG1zZ0lkAzM4ODMyBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyMjI2MTc4MDI->
Posted
by: "Margaret" margaretz@...
<margaretz@...?Subject=+Re%3A%20Receptivity> margaretzat
<http://profiles.yahoo.com/margaretzat> Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:32 am (PDT) My
thoughts on how to get the most out of a list like this.
1) Lurk first. Read old posts and follow new discussions. Do this
for quite a while. This is for two big reasons. The first reason is
that they are relevant. The problems and questions that you are
having are not unique. You can learn a lot by reading these
discussions about other peo
--
Hema A. Bharadwaj
http://thebharadwajknights.blogspot.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wish i had read these well worded points before undertaking conversations
online with some groups. Perhaps this should be posted on the page where
the group is described? I'm not net savvy really and go by the seat of my
pants... more because of lack of time.
Until about a year ago i did not know abotu such groups. I was not a member
of any. And since all my usual conversations/advice seeking was from
real-time-conversations.... it has taken me a long time to adjust to seeking
the same online. The rules, ideas, expression mode, style of writing,
everything makes or breaks the conversation... esp as i'm not a good writer
(yet ;-) i struggle with this.
And now i'm desperate for these online forums/groups because i don't have
any like-minded people near me physically. And i do so want to be able to
connect with people onliine.
anyway... thanks Margaret. have not read the thread... but came accross
yours while scrolling quickly and had to respond.
Hema
Re: Receptivity
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/38832;_ylc=X3oDMTJyN2pvbmI5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzQ0MTAyNTAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NTQyMTExBG1zZ0lkAzM4ODMyBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyMjI2MTc4MDI->
Posted
by: "Margaret" margaretz@...
<margaretz@...?Subject=+Re%3A%20Receptivity> margaretzat
<http://profiles.yahoo.com/margaretzat> Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:32 am (PDT) My
thoughts on how to get the most out of a list like this.
1) Lurk first. Read old posts and follow new discussions. Do this
for quite a while. This is for two big reasons. The first reason is
that they are relevant. The problems and questions that you are
having are not unique. You can learn a lot by reading these
discussions about other peo
--
Hema A. Bharadwaj
http://thebharadwajknights.blogspot.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-wish i had read these well worded points before undertaking
conversations
online with some groups. Perhaps this should be posted on the page where
the group is described? -=-
I'll gather up what has been posted here and three I have through e-
mail and make something somewhere this week. We've learned over the
years that people tend not to read the "hi, welcome to this group" e-
mails, and many join a group without even going to the main page
where the group is described, so maybe the best use of such a page,
when it's done, will be to send to people who are in a new-to-group
frenzy.
I enjoy frenzy sometimes, but I don't have as much fun when people
can't be distracted with useful information or suggestions to read
first and then post some more later. So such a thing would be useful.
Part of this is the format, I know. A new unschooler wouldn't go to
a conference and go up to the speaker's podium and take the
microphone and start talking. It's easy, I'm sure, to assume we all
just got here instead of that some have been here helping people for
years. If Joyce writes one thing and someone else whose name few of
us recognize writes the opposite, those aren't two equal opinions.
If the new person has an opinion that dazzles Joyce and sparks some
great ideas in other readers, LOTS of people will say wow, that's a
great way to word that--thanks! Joyce will probably be the first one
to do so. So it matters, in a situation like this, who is saying
what, but not in the way that people have different colored speakers'
badges or ranks or awards. It's something each reader figures out
for herself.
Readers will have favorite posters. They won't be the same for
everyone. I love to see Deb Lewis's smiling e-mail address in my
box, but she's really busy. When Deb writes, I read twice.
Different people for different people. Schuyler's another favorite
who doesn't post all the time.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
conversations
online with some groups. Perhaps this should be posted on the page where
the group is described? -=-
I'll gather up what has been posted here and three I have through e-
mail and make something somewhere this week. We've learned over the
years that people tend not to read the "hi, welcome to this group" e-
mails, and many join a group without even going to the main page
where the group is described, so maybe the best use of such a page,
when it's done, will be to send to people who are in a new-to-group
frenzy.
I enjoy frenzy sometimes, but I don't have as much fun when people
can't be distracted with useful information or suggestions to read
first and then post some more later. So such a thing would be useful.
Part of this is the format, I know. A new unschooler wouldn't go to
a conference and go up to the speaker's podium and take the
microphone and start talking. It's easy, I'm sure, to assume we all
just got here instead of that some have been here helping people for
years. If Joyce writes one thing and someone else whose name few of
us recognize writes the opposite, those aren't two equal opinions.
If the new person has an opinion that dazzles Joyce and sparks some
great ideas in other readers, LOTS of people will say wow, that's a
great way to word that--thanks! Joyce will probably be the first one
to do so. So it matters, in a situation like this, who is saying
what, but not in the way that people have different colored speakers'
badges or ranks or awards. It's something each reader figures out
for herself.
Readers will have favorite posters. They won't be the same for
everyone. I love to see Deb Lewis's smiling e-mail address in my
box, but she's really busy. When Deb writes, I read twice.
Different people for different people. Schuyler's another favorite
who doesn't post all the time.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Margaret
Ah - I hadn't known about the list history. That makes sense.
I keep thinking of the people who show up and start posting advice
right away... people are discussing food and the person jumps in and
says that what they do is let the kids have their choice of anything
in the house, they just make sure that all the choices are healthy.
That one is going to blow up in their face and it won't be fun for
them. Advice on using the list isn't just to keep the list running
smoothly: it makes it much easier for the new person.
And yes, it makes it easier to bopp someone when they do something
that is disruptive or unhelpful :)
(and Hema - I'm really glad that it was helpful :)
> Maybe an advice page would be sufficient. If people want to ignoreI think having some advice on using the list could really help people.
> the advice, the rest of us don't need to feel as bad about bopping
> them, maybe.
I keep thinking of the people who show up and start posting advice
right away... people are discussing food and the person jumps in and
says that what they do is let the kids have their choice of anything
in the house, they just make sure that all the choices are healthy.
That one is going to blow up in their face and it won't be fun for
them. Advice on using the list isn't just to keep the list running
smoothly: it makes it much easier for the new person.
And yes, it makes it easier to bopp someone when they do something
that is disruptive or unhelpful :)
(and Hema - I'm really glad that it was helpful :)
Schuyler
There is a good aspect to that conversation. The one where someone jumps in and says what "good" limitations they have in their household. It means you get to talk about that. You get to talk about how those kinds of limitations can work well when your children are littler, but, how if that's a hard and fast rule, it will end up biting you in the butt. You can also talk about the definition of healthy, how young children have a need for sweet and fatty for brain development and how by limiting food to low fat and sugar free you are doing poorly considered harm to that child.
The problem for the poster of the advice is that they see themselves as their words. It's understandable, their words are all they have acting as their representative on a yahoo group. That and maybe a sig. line of a blog or a quote that inspires or makes them think. So when someone else comes along and writes about the less limited household, the household whose constraint aren't "healthy" but are what is wanted and what can be afforded and what is available, the poster of limitations feels attacked. And when someone else comes along and talks about the risks of limitation, the now defensive poster attacks back. And I don't think there is anything that can be done to make that less likely to happen. Even if the response is kind and gentle and warm, which it often is, the poster will read it with their own layers of bias and fear and infuse the words with tones that may incite them to greater levels of defensiveness.
In my experience it is less likely to happen if the original poster is looking for help. There may be moments when they feel attacked or ganged up on, but it seems having been willing to put their concerns and worries into this and other public forums has already thickened their skin a bit, or made them more receptive, from the off, to the advice they are receiving. When the advice seeker tends to get grumpy and defensive is when something they posted that wasn't actually what they were asking for help with is examined and dissected, words that they framed their request with, padding to their story.
Anyhow, those are my thoughts and Linnaea is keen to have the computer, so if I don't post now I won't get this posted...at least not for a while.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message ----
Ah - I hadn't known about the list history. That makes sense.
I keep thinking of the people who show up and start posting advice
right away... people are discussing food and the person jumps in and
says that what they do is let the kids have their choice of anything
in the house, they just make sure that all the choices are healthy.
That one is going to blow up in their face and it won't be fun for
them. Advice on using the list isn't just to keep the list running
smoothly: it makes it much easier for the new person.
And yes, it makes it easier to bopp someone when they do something
that is disruptive or unhelpful :)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The problem for the poster of the advice is that they see themselves as their words. It's understandable, their words are all they have acting as their representative on a yahoo group. That and maybe a sig. line of a blog or a quote that inspires or makes them think. So when someone else comes along and writes about the less limited household, the household whose constraint aren't "healthy" but are what is wanted and what can be afforded and what is available, the poster of limitations feels attacked. And when someone else comes along and talks about the risks of limitation, the now defensive poster attacks back. And I don't think there is anything that can be done to make that less likely to happen. Even if the response is kind and gentle and warm, which it often is, the poster will read it with their own layers of bias and fear and infuse the words with tones that may incite them to greater levels of defensiveness.
In my experience it is less likely to happen if the original poster is looking for help. There may be moments when they feel attacked or ganged up on, but it seems having been willing to put their concerns and worries into this and other public forums has already thickened their skin a bit, or made them more receptive, from the off, to the advice they are receiving. When the advice seeker tends to get grumpy and defensive is when something they posted that wasn't actually what they were asking for help with is examined and dissected, words that they framed their request with, padding to their story.
Anyhow, those are my thoughts and Linnaea is keen to have the computer, so if I don't post now I won't get this posted...at least not for a while.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message ----
Ah - I hadn't known about the list history. That makes sense.
> Maybe an advice page would be sufficient. If people want to ignoreI think having some advice on using the list could really help people.
> the advice, the rest of us don't need to feel as bad about bopping
> them, maybe.
I keep thinking of the people who show up and start posting advice
right away... people are discussing food and the person jumps in and
says that what they do is let the kids have their choice of anything
in the house, they just make sure that all the choices are healthy.
That one is going to blow up in their face and it won't be fun for
them. Advice on using the list isn't just to keep the list running
smoothly: it makes it much easier for the new person.
And yes, it makes it easier to bopp someone when they do something
that is disruptive or unhelpful :)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-When the advice seeker tends to get grumpy and defensive is when
something they posted that wasn't actually what they were asking for
help with is examined and dissected, words that they framed their
request with, padding to their story. -=-
If we were doing patchwork quilts, an analogy might be that someone
brought a piece of cloth and wanted one particular part of it to
maybe go into the quilt, and those of us already here got excited
about another part of the cloth and weren't interested in having her
tell us exactly which piece we should use how.
My analogy assumes that people know that the purpose of the list is
more like making a quilt than it is like being a help desk. We do
serve the help-desk function pretty well sometimes anyway. Sometimes
I feel like a pharmacist (chemist for the britoid readership) who's
talking shop behind the counter for fun for years, and then someone
comes in and tells a desperate story and wants help. So I prescribe
a couple of webpages and expect them to read it and if it helps, to
come back for more.
Sometimes, though, someone will come in with a need they think they
have, and if they actually are to be assisted in getting closer to
unschooling, they need something altogether different.
Customer: "I haven't slept for 72 hours and I need something to keep
me awake."
Me: "You need to sleep."
Customer: "I can't sleep."
Me thinking "uh... wait" and saying: "I can give you something to
help you sleep, and some ideas about how to sleep more regularly,
because it's not safe to have driven or even walked here if you
haven't slept for 72 hours, and you're likely to get sick from any
passing germ because your immune system can't operate well this way..."
Customer: "You have a pharmacy. You HAVE to sell me something to
keep me awake."
Me: "No I don't. I'm in the business of helping people be healthy,
and I can't assist you in a situation that goes counter to health and
safety. Anyway, this is a FREE pharmacy and this is just an
analogy, and in any case, I don't have to give you diddly-squat."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
something they posted that wasn't actually what they were asking for
help with is examined and dissected, words that they framed their
request with, padding to their story. -=-
If we were doing patchwork quilts, an analogy might be that someone
brought a piece of cloth and wanted one particular part of it to
maybe go into the quilt, and those of us already here got excited
about another part of the cloth and weren't interested in having her
tell us exactly which piece we should use how.
My analogy assumes that people know that the purpose of the list is
more like making a quilt than it is like being a help desk. We do
serve the help-desk function pretty well sometimes anyway. Sometimes
I feel like a pharmacist (chemist for the britoid readership) who's
talking shop behind the counter for fun for years, and then someone
comes in and tells a desperate story and wants help. So I prescribe
a couple of webpages and expect them to read it and if it helps, to
come back for more.
Sometimes, though, someone will come in with a need they think they
have, and if they actually are to be assisted in getting closer to
unschooling, they need something altogether different.
Customer: "I haven't slept for 72 hours and I need something to keep
me awake."
Me: "You need to sleep."
Customer: "I can't sleep."
Me thinking "uh... wait" and saying: "I can give you something to
help you sleep, and some ideas about how to sleep more regularly,
because it's not safe to have driven or even walked here if you
haven't slept for 72 hours, and you're likely to get sick from any
passing germ because your immune system can't operate well this way..."
Customer: "You have a pharmacy. You HAVE to sell me something to
keep me awake."
Me: "No I don't. I'm in the business of helping people be healthy,
and I can't assist you in a situation that goes counter to health and
safety. Anyway, this is a FREE pharmacy and this is just an
analogy, and in any case, I don't have to give you diddly-squat."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Renee McGraw
On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 10:40 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
over to google) I would like to say thanks for giving the diddly squat that
you do.
Here's a snip of a reply you once gave me back in May of 2007:
**********************************
-=-I feel like I've started in that direction, but there are many
instances
when I fall right back into the "old" way of responding to certain
situations. -=-
Probably everyone does, at times of stress, at least for a half a
second of thought, if not in word or action.
The plan is to get further and further away from there all the time.
-=- I think I need to find peace and acceptance for myself before I
can fully share that w/ my children.
-=-
You mean work on your own problems first and let your children wait?
How long?
I think it will help you find peace and acceptance for you to give
your children what you wish you had had when you were younger. Then
you'll be healing all of you at the same time.
-=-I just really don't know where to start.-=-
http://sandradodd.com/peacefulparenting
http://sandradodd.com/nest
http://sandradodd.com/respect
http://sandradodd.com/mindfulparenting
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
http://sandradodd.com/strewing
http://sandradodd.com/choices
***************************
So I read and I read and I read some more. I lurked for awhile too on
UnschoolingBasics and AlwaysUnschooled and really received some thoughtful
replies to specific issues I was sorting through pertaining to food and
sleeping.
I was worried about my girl eating 3 or 4 popsicles for breakfast.
lol, it really seems so long ago and we have come so far. Food isn't
limited in any form. I now go down the chip and soda isle every week
because there are people in my family who like having those choices
available. (Thanks Kelly Lovejoy for opeing my eyes to my selfishness) We
are in SC and have been on Kelly's group, SOS, for quite some time too.
My daughter still has days when she wants popsicles, chocolate or chips and
there are other days she asks for steak, green beans, corn, carrots and many
differnent types of foods.
There are many other topics that I have been able to see in a different
light because of the diddly squat that's given on these lists. I would
encourage those that are *really* seeking a more peaceful life to take these
suggestions and advice, not as personal attacks, but as a means to a
different way of looking at things. Which in turn, can be literally life
changing.
It has for us.
--
Renee
"If you never did, you should. These things are fun, and fun is good."
~Dr. Seuss
http://awrinkleformybrain.blogspot.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>As a long time lurker over at UnschoolingDiscussion (since before it moved
> Me: "No I don't. I'm in the business of helping people be healthy,
> and I can't assist you in a situation that goes counter to health and
> safety. Anyway, this is a FREE pharmacy and this is just an
> analogy, and in any case, I don't have to give you diddly-squat."
over to google) I would like to say thanks for giving the diddly squat that
you do.
Here's a snip of a reply you once gave me back in May of 2007:
**********************************
-=-I feel like I've started in that direction, but there are many
instances
when I fall right back into the "old" way of responding to certain
situations. -=-
Probably everyone does, at times of stress, at least for a half a
second of thought, if not in word or action.
The plan is to get further and further away from there all the time.
-=- I think I need to find peace and acceptance for myself before I
can fully share that w/ my children.
-=-
You mean work on your own problems first and let your children wait?
How long?
I think it will help you find peace and acceptance for you to give
your children what you wish you had had when you were younger. Then
you'll be healing all of you at the same time.
-=-I just really don't know where to start.-=-
http://sandradodd.com/peacefulparenting
http://sandradodd.com/nest
http://sandradodd.com/respect
http://sandradodd.com/mindfulparenting
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
http://sandradodd.com/strewing
http://sandradodd.com/choices
***************************
So I read and I read and I read some more. I lurked for awhile too on
UnschoolingBasics and AlwaysUnschooled and really received some thoughtful
replies to specific issues I was sorting through pertaining to food and
sleeping.
I was worried about my girl eating 3 or 4 popsicles for breakfast.
lol, it really seems so long ago and we have come so far. Food isn't
limited in any form. I now go down the chip and soda isle every week
because there are people in my family who like having those choices
available. (Thanks Kelly Lovejoy for opeing my eyes to my selfishness) We
are in SC and have been on Kelly's group, SOS, for quite some time too.
My daughter still has days when she wants popsicles, chocolate or chips and
there are other days she asks for steak, green beans, corn, carrots and many
differnent types of foods.
There are many other topics that I have been able to see in a different
light because of the diddly squat that's given on these lists. I would
encourage those that are *really* seeking a more peaceful life to take these
suggestions and advice, not as personal attacks, but as a means to a
different way of looking at things. Which in turn, can be literally life
changing.
It has for us.
--
Renee
"If you never did, you should. These things are fun, and fun is good."
~Dr. Seuss
http://awrinkleformybrain.blogspot.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Margaret
> We've learned over theOh, I wanted to mention a strategy that I saw for ensuring that people
> years that people tend not to read the "hi, welcome to this group" e-
> mails, and many join a group without even going to the main page
> where the group is described, so maybe the best use of such a page,
> when it's done, will be to send to people who are in a new-to-group
> frenzy.
read (at least some of) the list description. It had a list of rules
and the last rule was that you had to copy and paste a phrase into the
membership application. The thing they wanted you to include in your
application said that you would not mention scanlations and that you
would read the FAQ. I found out the hard way that they really do
reject you without it :) They sent a polite message saying that I
should read the rules if I still wanted to join.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skip_beat/
I thought that it was rather clever.
Melissa Dietrick
> Just sayin'... just for those who are helping me figure out how toHi sandra,
> advise new readers.
>
> Maybe an advice page would be sufficient. If people want to ignore
> the advice, the rest of us don't need to feel as bad about bopping
> them, maybe.
I wish I could remember when I joined this list...is there any way I
could find that out?
I know that I joined the first four unschooling lists all on the same
evening...
but I was reading joyfully rejoycing and your site long before I
joined and somewhere out there, I read the bit you quoted in the
original post by joyce.
And when I finally joined, I read, and read, and thought and discussed
things with my eldest dd Lucia (21yr) (who is really enthusiastic
about unschooling philosophy) and Im really glad I read that little
bit there by joyce because there were many times I thought someone was
just not being realistic...and then patiently Id keep reading
(sometimes impatiently wanting to post but knowing better, lol) and
violà, (as my smallest loves to say, from bwana and Koala) sandra (or
joyce or pam or schuyler or someone) would write something that just
pulled it all to gether.
Because often talking about unlimited computer or television it would
look like to me that there was a lot of "un parenting" going on.
And to me, the crux of what makes no limits work is connection...
I could see this in our family with just about everything else, but
with tv, well, we dont have one...we live where there is no reception
and only recently have they improved that for the locals here. And
computer connections were costly and just as poor, again do to
location. but last summer we got the fast and cheap connections
available (finally!) and all of a sudden we could get youtube, and
video games on line and then we go a wonderful mac :o)
Thank goodness I had been reading! because that was dutifully pointed
out in wonderful ways, and since its all about connection, and being
present, when gaming and videos came into our lives,we were ready to
embrace it. And its been just wonderful for us. All my fear mantras
about tv video games had been argued away by others, without me ever
having had to step in and chime in (about how horrible it all is for
children).
Also when people would talk about food, and no limits, at first I
didnt get it at all! Not because I was a limit freak, not at all. WE
dont do limits here, and our children eat what they wish...but
I would read a few "disaster" stories where a mamma would lift all
limits and then be shocked by the obsession that seemed to follow, and
Id sort of wonder really loudly (to my dd) about that, as I was
thinking that if that is unschooling, I can do without.
So thanks to joyce's words, again I kept my mouth shut and kept
reading...and sure enough someone came along to point out that going
cold turkey on limits and control is not always the best way to go
about it... or atleast dont tell the kids you are going cold turkey!
So then I got the picture that what I was reading about was not a
"pure" version of no food limits.
Anyway, I think a link to your advice page is a great idea, and
forsure, make that advice page linked just about everywhere you go
within your site...especially near the part where youve got the links
to the lists...but Im sure you've already thought of that.
this has got to be the longest post ive made, here...Ive got a
terribly sore back and my kids are being so sweet and letting me play
here today :o)
Im really happy I read that bit there and just sat back a bit to
absorb it all in...
melissa in italy
mamma of 7
who wonders if sandra remembers little notes Id send offlist once and
again saying thank you for writing such and that? probably not, as
she must get jazillions!
Nancy Wooton
On Oct 3, 2008, at 8:31 AM, Melissa Dietrick wrote:
find yourself :-)
I joined Nov. 25, 2001. ;-)
Nancy
> wish I could remember when I joined this list...is there any way IJune 15, 2007. Go to the yahoo group page, click on Members, then
> could find that out?
find yourself :-)
I joined Nov. 25, 2001. ;-)
Nancy
Pamela Sorooshian
On Oct 3, 2008, at 8:31 AM, Melissa Dietrick wrote:
Unschooling is the OPPOSITE of unparenting - it is connecting, being
attentive, observing, sharing, engaging, carefully providing distance
when needed, being "right there" on top of things when needed,
providing input, listening listening listening, showing, assisting,
comforting, inspiring, supporting, offering ideas, digging up
resources, finding out what's "out there" that would interest the
child, modeling! And there is lots more - but that's enough to be
clear that it is certainly not "unparenting."
-pam
> Because often talking about unlimited computer or television it wouldWell said!
> look like to me that there was a lot of "un parenting" going on.
> And to me, the crux of what makes no limits work is connection...
Unschooling is the OPPOSITE of unparenting - it is connecting, being
attentive, observing, sharing, engaging, carefully providing distance
when needed, being "right there" on top of things when needed,
providing input, listening listening listening, showing, assisting,
comforting, inspiring, supporting, offering ideas, digging up
resources, finding out what's "out there" that would interest the
child, modeling! And there is lots more - but that's enough to be
clear that it is certainly not "unparenting."
-pam
Lyla Wolfenstein
may i quote this on a different list?
Unschooling is the OPPOSITE of unparenting - it is connecting, being
attentive, observing, sharing, engaging, carefully providing distance
when needed, being "right there" on top of things when needed,
providing input, listening listening listening, showing, assisting,
comforting, inspiring, supporting, offering ideas, digging up
resources, finding out what's "out there" that would interest the
child, modeling! And there is lots more - but that's enough to be
clear that it is certainly not "unparenting."
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Unschooling is the OPPOSITE of unparenting - it is connecting, being
attentive, observing, sharing, engaging, carefully providing distance
when needed, being "right there" on top of things when needed,
providing input, listening listening listening, showing, assisting,
comforting, inspiring, supporting, offering ideas, digging up
resources, finding out what's "out there" that would interest the
child, modeling! And there is lots more - but that's enough to be
clear that it is certainly not "unparenting."
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]