Re: unschooling a child with significant developmental delays
Elaine Green
I am wondering what recommendations you would have for a family who has a child with a significant learning/developmental delays, who does not function in the same manner as the other children in the family.
We are a long-time home learning family (since 1988) with eight children, four still at home. The younger four are internationally adopted (China) and are 15, 13, 12 and 11 year old girls. Our fifteen year old, who joined our family at age 6.5 years, has significant learning/developmental issues that have baffled us since her adoption in 1999. Some basic conclusions we've reached after lots of consultation with therapists in an effort to find out what is going on is that she has a profound language processing disorder complicated by a low-IQ. Now, I have got to say that I am not someone who puts a whole lot of stock in IQ tests. Nor do I have a lot of faith in therapists. But, given our long-time experience in parenting, homeschooling, and international adoption, this child has baffled us. She struggles with learning things that were never problems for any of the other kids, and she presents to the world as a child with major problems, but she doesn't fit any mold that we can easily understand. We have been reluctant to submit her to too much testing, because we don't want to add to her already evident insecurities. We do suspect that she may have had a brain injury at some time before her adoption based on the type of language problems she experiences, and there is more we will never know because of lack of knowledge of her biological family's health issues, her birth history, and her life prior to her entering the orphanage in China when she was three years old.
But we struggle about how to help her move toward a time when she might hope to live somewhat independently. If she were clearly developmentally delayed, it would be obvious that she would not be able to live independently and we would be looking towards some type of sheltered work/living environment. But she's not in that category. If she were in school, she would probably be diagnosed as a slow learner (possibly borderline retarded, but more likely slightly above that level), with a huge language processing disorder. Our primary therapist has said we should not consider public school ever because our daughter would fall into a huge gap area of lack of service. The speech pathologists we've seen have said that the low IQ severely complicates any hope of making much progress on the language processing disorder.
She does not "learn" in the way that the other kids learn. She doesn't pick things up by normal exposure in an active, involved family. Even clear instruction isn't working in many areas. For example, she's never been able to learn to handle money. Lots of board games, lots of exposure to the use of money in shopping, hasn't clicked. She can't grasp the concept of time......she can tell the time with a digital clock but not grasp how much time elapses during activities. Example: if you go to a two-hour movie that starts at 4 p.m., when will the movie be over? If she has $5 in her wallet and the movie costs $6, does she have enough money to go to the movie? And she's 15.
She is very much a 15 year old, interested in boys, music, fashion. But she lacks discernment that I would expect to find in a much younger child, so I am reluctant to allow her reasonable activities I would expect a much younger child to be able to handle. Internet access terrifies me, because of her lack of judgment.
So, my question is, how do any of you who have children who fall far below what could be considered typical in development and ability to handle things?
When you can't trust the automatic growth that we see with our other kids, how do you deal with life? Do you find that some children need more concrete instruction......and I have to say here that our efforts at being more formal with this child are of mixed results........and do you find that some children need more from "professionals" than you would consider normally? Are any of you parenting children who have severe learning issues related possibly to brain damage? What do you do with the child who has such serious learning problems that you despair of their being able to live independently, yet the child would be out of place in a sheltered workshop?
A few extra things......This young lady takes dance (ballet, tap, modern, hip-hop) at a local school where she is well liked on a superficial level. By this I mean she chatters away with lots of the other girls, but they don't include her in any of their other activities because they recognize her differences.
She chatters quite a bit, but she has difficulty following true conversations. She reads age-appropriate books, her ability to "read" is ok, but her comprehension is lacking. She can't discuss the books she reads. She also can't discuss movies or tv shows, even those that she seems to be very interested in. This falls into the language problem, and we're not sure where in the brain the comprehension lags.......does she understand what she reads and watches but can't put her understanding into words, or does she not understand at any level and is just mimicing enjoyment? She can't play games that require any strategizing. She can do basic household tasks (setting table, washing dishes, making beds) but she can't handle the washing machine because of an inability to comprehend the organizational side of that (how hot do you want the water, what items require special handling?) I can't have her go into a grocery store with a list and get what is on the list and pay, even though she goes shopping with me and I talk through the process in an effort to get her to figure out what I'm doing, yet she has clear preferences on types of food and brands.
Elaine in Montana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We are a long-time home learning family (since 1988) with eight children, four still at home. The younger four are internationally adopted (China) and are 15, 13, 12 and 11 year old girls. Our fifteen year old, who joined our family at age 6.5 years, has significant learning/developmental issues that have baffled us since her adoption in 1999. Some basic conclusions we've reached after lots of consultation with therapists in an effort to find out what is going on is that she has a profound language processing disorder complicated by a low-IQ. Now, I have got to say that I am not someone who puts a whole lot of stock in IQ tests. Nor do I have a lot of faith in therapists. But, given our long-time experience in parenting, homeschooling, and international adoption, this child has baffled us. She struggles with learning things that were never problems for any of the other kids, and she presents to the world as a child with major problems, but she doesn't fit any mold that we can easily understand. We have been reluctant to submit her to too much testing, because we don't want to add to her already evident insecurities. We do suspect that she may have had a brain injury at some time before her adoption based on the type of language problems she experiences, and there is more we will never know because of lack of knowledge of her biological family's health issues, her birth history, and her life prior to her entering the orphanage in China when she was three years old.
But we struggle about how to help her move toward a time when she might hope to live somewhat independently. If she were clearly developmentally delayed, it would be obvious that she would not be able to live independently and we would be looking towards some type of sheltered work/living environment. But she's not in that category. If she were in school, she would probably be diagnosed as a slow learner (possibly borderline retarded, but more likely slightly above that level), with a huge language processing disorder. Our primary therapist has said we should not consider public school ever because our daughter would fall into a huge gap area of lack of service. The speech pathologists we've seen have said that the low IQ severely complicates any hope of making much progress on the language processing disorder.
She does not "learn" in the way that the other kids learn. She doesn't pick things up by normal exposure in an active, involved family. Even clear instruction isn't working in many areas. For example, she's never been able to learn to handle money. Lots of board games, lots of exposure to the use of money in shopping, hasn't clicked. She can't grasp the concept of time......she can tell the time with a digital clock but not grasp how much time elapses during activities. Example: if you go to a two-hour movie that starts at 4 p.m., when will the movie be over? If she has $5 in her wallet and the movie costs $6, does she have enough money to go to the movie? And she's 15.
She is very much a 15 year old, interested in boys, music, fashion. But she lacks discernment that I would expect to find in a much younger child, so I am reluctant to allow her reasonable activities I would expect a much younger child to be able to handle. Internet access terrifies me, because of her lack of judgment.
So, my question is, how do any of you who have children who fall far below what could be considered typical in development and ability to handle things?
When you can't trust the automatic growth that we see with our other kids, how do you deal with life? Do you find that some children need more concrete instruction......and I have to say here that our efforts at being more formal with this child are of mixed results........and do you find that some children need more from "professionals" than you would consider normally? Are any of you parenting children who have severe learning issues related possibly to brain damage? What do you do with the child who has such serious learning problems that you despair of their being able to live independently, yet the child would be out of place in a sheltered workshop?
A few extra things......This young lady takes dance (ballet, tap, modern, hip-hop) at a local school where she is well liked on a superficial level. By this I mean she chatters away with lots of the other girls, but they don't include her in any of their other activities because they recognize her differences.
She chatters quite a bit, but she has difficulty following true conversations. She reads age-appropriate books, her ability to "read" is ok, but her comprehension is lacking. She can't discuss the books she reads. She also can't discuss movies or tv shows, even those that she seems to be very interested in. This falls into the language problem, and we're not sure where in the brain the comprehension lags.......does she understand what she reads and watches but can't put her understanding into words, or does she not understand at any level and is just mimicing enjoyment? She can't play games that require any strategizing. She can do basic household tasks (setting table, washing dishes, making beds) but she can't handle the washing machine because of an inability to comprehend the organizational side of that (how hot do you want the water, what items require special handling?) I can't have her go into a grocery store with a list and get what is on the list and pay, even though she goes shopping with me and I talk through the process in an effort to get her to figure out what I'm doing, yet she has clear preferences on types of food and brands.
Elaine in Montana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jennifer Z
I am the mom of an autistic son, and I am friends with another mom
who unschools the rest of her family, but has come to some of the
same conclusions I did regarding our autistic kids. Pure
unschooling for them just wasn't working for our auties. When I
went to read what John Holt had to say on the subject, the example
that was given of homeschooling an autistic child was not
unschooling, it was more traditional, structured homeschooling.
Now, I have found that a traditional curriculm does not work very
well either because it has to be very visual and very hands on.
Right now we are putting some of the traditional academics aside to
try and work on his various language processing issues and self help
skills.
The issue you described, where the reading level (word attack,
phonics, ect) is considerably above their comprehension is
termed "hyperlexic". It occurs in autism some of the time, but
isn't exclusive to autism. (you can be hyperlexic and not
autistic). It is related to dyslexia, sort of it's opposite. I
found a program recently that targets comprehension
called "Visualizing and Verbalizing" by Nancy Bell. Working on
comprehension and sequencing is a huge part of what I do with my
ds.
I have found that he really struggles with auditory
processing/language processing, but can understand visual supports a
lot better, so I do a LOT of visual supports. You can find a lot of
information on PECS (Picture Exchange Communication), which can be
used with totally non-verbal kids, but are also really useful for
verbal, but with difficulty with language processing. I use them a
lot to make picture schedules, social stories (although I don't do
them the 'standard' way, for me it is basically taking the task and
breaking it down into the smallest possible pieces, like "spit in
sink" is one of the tasks for the "brushing teeth" story, and "look
at face" is a task in the "how to say hi" story), and visual to-do
lists.
I have had good luck with Miquon Math (uses Cuisinairre Rods)
because it depends much more on visual than most of the other math
programs I have seen. It is often used for remedial math and isn't
dumbed down or obviously for young kids, so that might be a plus for
you.
A lot of what you are describing are issues that a lot of autistics
face, so googling info on homeschooling and autism or autism
learning sites might help, even if it isn't an exact fit.
If you do think that autism might fit, you might look at
Greenspan's "Engaging Autism" a bit. Both me and my friend have
found the methods they use to address some of the issues to be
really compatable to living an unschooling lifestyle.
Let me know if I can be of any help. My child is younger,
but it sounds like some of the issues are similar.
I apologize if my post seems disjointed. My 2yo is having a rough
day and this window has been open for hours as I tried to write a
sentence here and there and I want to get this sent before
midnight. lol
--- In [email protected], "Elaine Green" <green@...>
wrote:
who does not function in the same manner as the other children in
the family.
adopted (China) and are 15, 13, 12 and 11 year old girls. Our
fifteen year old, who joined our family at age 6.5 years, has
significant learning/developmental issues that have baffled us since
her adoption in 1999. Some basic conclusions we've reached after
lots of consultation with therapists in an effort to find out what
is going on is that she has a profound language processing disorder
complicated by a low-IQ. Now, I have got to say that I am not
someone who puts a whole lot of stock in IQ tests. Nor do I have
a lot of faith in therapists. But, given our long-time experience
in parenting, homeschooling, and international adoption, this child
has baffled us. She struggles with learning things that were
never problems for any of the other kids, and she presents to the
world as a child with major problems, but she doesn't fit any mold
that we can easily understand. We have been reluctant to submit
her to too much testing, because we don't want to add to her already
evident insecurities. We do suspect that she may have had a brain
injury at some time before her adoption based on the type of
language problems she experiences, and there is more we will never
know because of lack of knowledge of her biological family's health
issues, her birth history, and her life prior to her entering the
orphanage in China when she was three years old.
developmentally delayed, it would be obvious that she would not be
able to live independently and we would be looking towards some type
of sheltered work/living environment. But she's not in that
category. If she were in school, she would probably be diagnosed
as a slow learner (possibly borderline retarded, but more likely
slightly above that level), with a huge language processing
disorder. Our primary therapist has said we should not consider
public school ever because our daughter would fall into a huge gap
area of lack of service. The speech pathologists we've seen have
said that the low IQ severely complicates any hope of making much
progress on the language processing disorder.
family. Even clear instruction isn't working in many areas. For
example, she's never been able to learn to handle money. Lots of
board games, lots of exposure to the use of money in shopping,
hasn't clicked. She can't grasp the concept of time......she can
tell the time with a digital clock but not grasp how much time
elapses during activities. Example: if you go to a two-hour
movie that starts at 4 p.m., when will the movie be over? If she
has $5 in her wallet and the movie costs $6, does she have enough
money to go to the movie? And she's 15.
a much younger child, so I am reluctant to allow her reasonable
activities I would expect a much younger child to be able to
handle. Internet access terrifies me, because of her lack of
judgment.
ability to handle things?
children need more concrete instruction......and I have to say here
that our efforts at being more formal with this child are of mixed
results........and do you find that some children need more
from "professionals" than you would consider normally? Are any
of you parenting children who have severe learning issues related
possibly to brain damage? What do you do with the child who has
such serious learning problems that you despair of their being able
to live independently, yet the child would be out of place in a
sheltered workshop?
superficial level. By this I mean she chatters away with lots of
the other girls, but they don't include her in any of their other
activities because they recognize her differences.
to "read" is ok, but her comprehension is lacking. She can't
discuss the books she reads. She also can't discuss movies or tv
shows, even those that she seems to be very interested in. This
falls into the language problem, and we're not sure where in the
brain the comprehension lags.......does she understand what she
reads and watches but can't put her understanding into words, or
does she not understand at any level and is just mimicing
enjoyment? She can't play games that require any
strategizing. She can do basic household tasks (setting table,
washing dishes, making beds) but she can't handle the washing
machine because of an inability to comprehend the organizational
side of that (how hot do you want the water, what items require
special handling?) I can't have her go into a grocery store with
a list and get what is on the list and pay, even though she goes
shopping with me and I talk through the process in an effort to get
her to figure out what I'm doing, yet she has clear preferences on
types of food and brands.
who unschools the rest of her family, but has come to some of the
same conclusions I did regarding our autistic kids. Pure
unschooling for them just wasn't working for our auties. When I
went to read what John Holt had to say on the subject, the example
that was given of homeschooling an autistic child was not
unschooling, it was more traditional, structured homeschooling.
Now, I have found that a traditional curriculm does not work very
well either because it has to be very visual and very hands on.
Right now we are putting some of the traditional academics aside to
try and work on his various language processing issues and self help
skills.
The issue you described, where the reading level (word attack,
phonics, ect) is considerably above their comprehension is
termed "hyperlexic". It occurs in autism some of the time, but
isn't exclusive to autism. (you can be hyperlexic and not
autistic). It is related to dyslexia, sort of it's opposite. I
found a program recently that targets comprehension
called "Visualizing and Verbalizing" by Nancy Bell. Working on
comprehension and sequencing is a huge part of what I do with my
ds.
I have found that he really struggles with auditory
processing/language processing, but can understand visual supports a
lot better, so I do a LOT of visual supports. You can find a lot of
information on PECS (Picture Exchange Communication), which can be
used with totally non-verbal kids, but are also really useful for
verbal, but with difficulty with language processing. I use them a
lot to make picture schedules, social stories (although I don't do
them the 'standard' way, for me it is basically taking the task and
breaking it down into the smallest possible pieces, like "spit in
sink" is one of the tasks for the "brushing teeth" story, and "look
at face" is a task in the "how to say hi" story), and visual to-do
lists.
I have had good luck with Miquon Math (uses Cuisinairre Rods)
because it depends much more on visual than most of the other math
programs I have seen. It is often used for remedial math and isn't
dumbed down or obviously for young kids, so that might be a plus for
you.
A lot of what you are describing are issues that a lot of autistics
face, so googling info on homeschooling and autism or autism
learning sites might help, even if it isn't an exact fit.
If you do think that autism might fit, you might look at
Greenspan's "Engaging Autism" a bit. Both me and my friend have
found the methods they use to address some of the issues to be
really compatable to living an unschooling lifestyle.
Let me know if I can be of any help. My child is younger,
but it sounds like some of the issues are similar.
I apologize if my post seems disjointed. My 2yo is having a rough
day and this window has been open for hours as I tried to write a
sentence here and there and I want to get this sent before
midnight. lol
--- In [email protected], "Elaine Green" <green@...>
wrote:
>who has a child with a significant learning/developmental delays,
> I am wondering what recommendations you would have for a family
who does not function in the same manner as the other children in
the family.
>children, four still at home. The younger four are internationally
> We are a long-time home learning family (since 1988) with eight
adopted (China) and are 15, 13, 12 and 11 year old girls. Our
fifteen year old, who joined our family at age 6.5 years, has
significant learning/developmental issues that have baffled us since
her adoption in 1999. Some basic conclusions we've reached after
lots of consultation with therapists in an effort to find out what
is going on is that she has a profound language processing disorder
complicated by a low-IQ. Now, I have got to say that I am not
someone who puts a whole lot of stock in IQ tests. Nor do I have
a lot of faith in therapists. But, given our long-time experience
in parenting, homeschooling, and international adoption, this child
has baffled us. She struggles with learning things that were
never problems for any of the other kids, and she presents to the
world as a child with major problems, but she doesn't fit any mold
that we can easily understand. We have been reluctant to submit
her to too much testing, because we don't want to add to her already
evident insecurities. We do suspect that she may have had a brain
injury at some time before her adoption based on the type of
language problems she experiences, and there is more we will never
know because of lack of knowledge of her biological family's health
issues, her birth history, and her life prior to her entering the
orphanage in China when she was three years old.
>might hope to live somewhat independently. If she were clearly
> But we struggle about how to help her move toward a time when she
developmentally delayed, it would be obvious that she would not be
able to live independently and we would be looking towards some type
of sheltered work/living environment. But she's not in that
category. If she were in school, she would probably be diagnosed
as a slow learner (possibly borderline retarded, but more likely
slightly above that level), with a huge language processing
disorder. Our primary therapist has said we should not consider
public school ever because our daughter would fall into a huge gap
area of lack of service. The speech pathologists we've seen have
said that the low IQ severely complicates any hope of making much
progress on the language processing disorder.
>doesn't pick things up by normal exposure in an active, involved
> She does not "learn" in the way that the other kids learn. She
family. Even clear instruction isn't working in many areas. For
example, she's never been able to learn to handle money. Lots of
board games, lots of exposure to the use of money in shopping,
hasn't clicked. She can't grasp the concept of time......she can
tell the time with a digital clock but not grasp how much time
elapses during activities. Example: if you go to a two-hour
movie that starts at 4 p.m., when will the movie be over? If she
has $5 in her wallet and the movie costs $6, does she have enough
money to go to the movie? And she's 15.
>fashion. But she lacks discernment that I would expect to find in
> She is very much a 15 year old, interested in boys, music,
a much younger child, so I am reluctant to allow her reasonable
activities I would expect a much younger child to be able to
handle. Internet access terrifies me, because of her lack of
judgment.
>far below what could be considered typical in development and
> So, my question is, how do any of you who have children who fall
ability to handle things?
> When you can't trust the automatic growth that we see with ourother kids, how do you deal with life? Do you find that some
children need more concrete instruction......and I have to say here
that our efforts at being more formal with this child are of mixed
results........and do you find that some children need more
from "professionals" than you would consider normally? Are any
of you parenting children who have severe learning issues related
possibly to brain damage? What do you do with the child who has
such serious learning problems that you despair of their being able
to live independently, yet the child would be out of place in a
sheltered workshop?
>modern, hip-hop) at a local school where she is well liked on a
> A few extra things......This young lady takes dance (ballet, tap,
superficial level. By this I mean she chatters away with lots of
the other girls, but they don't include her in any of their other
activities because they recognize her differences.
> She chatters quite a bit, but she has difficulty following trueconversations. She reads age-appropriate books, her ability
to "read" is ok, but her comprehension is lacking. She can't
discuss the books she reads. She also can't discuss movies or tv
shows, even those that she seems to be very interested in. This
falls into the language problem, and we're not sure where in the
brain the comprehension lags.......does she understand what she
reads and watches but can't put her understanding into words, or
does she not understand at any level and is just mimicing
enjoyment? She can't play games that require any
strategizing. She can do basic household tasks (setting table,
washing dishes, making beds) but she can't handle the washing
machine because of an inability to comprehend the organizational
side of that (how hot do you want the water, what items require
special handling?) I can't have her go into a grocery store with
a list and get what is on the list and pay, even though she goes
shopping with me and I talk through the process in an effort to get
her to figure out what I'm doing, yet she has clear preferences on
types of food and brands.
>
> Elaine in Montana
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-The issue you described, where the reading level (word attack,
phonics, ect) is considerably above their comprehension is
termed "hyperlexic". It occurs in autism some of the time, but
isn't exclusive to autism. (you can be hyperlexic and not
autistic). It is related to dyslexia, sort of it's opposite. I
found a program recently that targets comprehension
called "Visualizing and Verbalizing" by Nancy Bell. Working on
comprehension and sequencing is a huge part of what I do with my
ds. -=-
I don't think pressing a child to learn formally faster is a good
idea even if he's autistic. Kids can't learn in their own way in
their own time if they don't get the chance.
-=-The issue you described, where the reading level (word attack,
phonics, ect) is considerably above their comprehension is termed
"hyperlexic". -=-
Too much jargon, seriously. "Word attack" isn't a part of
unschooling, is it? It sounds fairly violent to me. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
phonics, ect) is considerably above their comprehension is
termed "hyperlexic". It occurs in autism some of the time, but
isn't exclusive to autism. (you can be hyperlexic and not
autistic). It is related to dyslexia, sort of it's opposite. I
found a program recently that targets comprehension
called "Visualizing and Verbalizing" by Nancy Bell. Working on
comprehension and sequencing is a huge part of what I do with my
ds. -=-
I don't think pressing a child to learn formally faster is a good
idea even if he's autistic. Kids can't learn in their own way in
their own time if they don't get the chance.
-=-The issue you described, where the reading level (word attack,
phonics, ect) is considerably above their comprehension is termed
"hyperlexic". -=-
Too much jargon, seriously. "Word attack" isn't a part of
unschooling, is it? It sounds fairly violent to me. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
Gee I must have been hyperlexic. I guess if I couldn't have been dyslexic
---then hyper I could have... :) Probably one of the few ways I could have
been considered hyper. At any rate, I was put through a lot of hooey over
the difference for how I read in school. Somehow I managed to ignore the
hoopla. Being very hard of hearing often has its advantages, especially
when people want to tell you what you are/aren't. My mom and dad knew I was
a voracious reader so they ignored the hoopla (good on them and me!).
Consider making reading enjoyable as it can be for children by not imposing
external opinions on it.
~Katherine
---then hyper I could have... :) Probably one of the few ways I could have
been considered hyper. At any rate, I was put through a lot of hooey over
the difference for how I read in school. Somehow I managed to ignore the
hoopla. Being very hard of hearing often has its advantages, especially
when people want to tell you what you are/aren't. My mom and dad knew I was
a voracious reader so they ignored the hoopla (good on them and me!).
Consider making reading enjoyable as it can be for children by not imposing
external opinions on it.
~Katherine
On 10/1/08, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-The issue you described, where the reading level (word attack,
> phonics, ect) is considerably above their comprehension is
> termed "hyperlexic". It occurs in autism some of the time, but
> isn't exclusive to autism. (you can be hyperlexic and not
> autistic). It is related to dyslexia, sort of it's opposite. I
> found a program recently that targets comprehension
> called "Visualizing and Verbalizing" by Nancy Bell. Working on
> comprehension and sequencing is a huge part of what I do with my
> ds. -=-
>
> I don't think pressing a child to learn formally faster is a good
> idea even if he's autistic. Kids can't learn in their own way in
> their own time if they don't get the chance.
>
> -=-The issue you described, where the reading level (word attack,
> phonics, ect) is considerably above their comprehension is termed
> "hyperlexic". -=-
>
> Too much jargon, seriously. "Word attack" isn't a part of
> unschooling, is it? It sounds fairly violent to me. :-)
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 30, 2008, at 11:08 PM, Jennifer Z wrote:
answers for a problem, does that mean unschooling answers don't exist?
Instead of looking to homeschoolers and others who are already
convinced unschooling doesn't work, I'd look for unschoolers who are
certain unschooling can work and are finding ways to make it work.
If you feel what you have works for your family, there's little I can
say that will make a difference. But it might make a difference to
others with atypical children whose fears were sparked alive by what
you wrote and are now thinking they need some program.
It suggests a goal with a deadline. That's one of the concepts
unschoolers need to let go of for natural learning to flourish. It
can be hard for unschoolers to see a 12 yo who is not reading. It
helps a lot to know that many unschooled kids -- though not all and
not the majority! ;-) -- have passed through that and do eventually
read fine.
It's hard being a pioneer. Often the only friends a pioneer has are
their certainty and determination. But for those who lack what's
necessary to be pioneers themselves, the pioneers are often happy to
help others who follow in the trail they've blazed. The pioneers are
out there.
interpreted as doing nothing. Unschoolers incorporate their help into
their kids lives as issues come up. They give their kids some help
before an event where they know from past experience the child might
have difficulties in. They give help during the event. They talk
about it afterward. Being there to help and support is a seamless
part of life.
The big difference is they aren't seeing their child as needing to be
at x level of competency so they need to work with the child, but
they will see a child struggling to do something and step in with the
offer of some other tools that might work better. (And one tool might
be to leave and try again some other time.) Rather than moving a
child to a goal the mother feels is necessary, the approach is "I'm
here to help."
comprehending, they're not reading.
In school, when kids need to read independently by 4th grade, the
myriad ways a child might not be reading is important for teachers
who must get those kids reading. (No one should assume that teachers
actually accomplish that! Special Ed takes the failures and removes
them from the teacher's list.)
My daughter wrote well before she could read. There might be a label
for that in school so the teacher could channel her off to the proper
special reading instruction. At home, it was just her approach and
now at 17 you'd never know she had that special "issue".
For unschoolers there's reading (which means comprehending) and not
reading (which means not comprehending) and a sliding scale between
as the child moves from not reading/comprehending towards reading/
comprehending. (Though comprehension is more of a fuzzy concept than
schools suggest. But if an unschooled child is picking up something
to read, they're comprehending well enough to satisfy themselves.)
ready to read, she would have felt there was something wrong with
her. There are several typical responses to that atmosphere. A child
can internalize a feeling of being incompetent and needful of others
to make them right. A child can decide they're dumb and can't do it.
A child, with a strong sense of self preservation, can decide the
thing they can't do is dumb so why should they try?
By imposing help to do something a child isn't ready (or wanting) to
do, the mom is saying through her actions that the child is
defective and not meeting the mom's standards. It makes no difference
if that thought is far from the mom's mind. It's what the actions say
to the child and words can't negate that.
from a different mindset. Instead of seeing where the child is not up
to par, an unschooler sees where her child is struggling and finds
ways to help.
Written out like that, it sounds subtle, but it's profound because it
begins with "I'm here to help," rather than, "I need to work to get
you to point x."
Had I looked for some particular level of competency in math as my
daughter grew, I might be drawn to some program too.
Math is tricky to learn. Not because it's hard -- it's actually
pretty easy -- but because what's learned out of context often
doesn't translate to real life, or even another program. Becoming
competent at a program doesn't necessarily mean the child understands
the way numbers work in real life. But programs can make the mother
feel she's doing her job.
That's true of language too. A child can sit through Spanish class,
memorizing a few hundred words, demonstrating a competency at putting
them in the right order, and yet not be able to answer a question
asked in the language out in the real world.
What I see in your approach is academic and social skills being
pulled out of context and worked on. That's what schools do. An
unschooling approach is to help the child do what *they're* trying to
do in context.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> When IIf another unschooling mom and John Holt don't have unschooling
> went to read what John Holt had to say on the subject, the example
> that was given of homeschooling an autistic child was not
> unschooling, it was more traditional, structured homeschooling
answers for a problem, does that mean unschooling answers don't exist?
Instead of looking to homeschoolers and others who are already
convinced unschooling doesn't work, I'd look for unschoolers who are
certain unschooling can work and are finding ways to make it work.
If you feel what you have works for your family, there's little I can
say that will make a difference. But it might make a difference to
others with atypical children whose fears were sparked alive by what
you wrote and are now thinking they need some program.
> Now, I have found that a traditional curriculm does not work veryWhat do you mean by "work"?
> well either because it has to be very visual and very hands on.
>
It suggests a goal with a deadline. That's one of the concepts
unschoolers need to let go of for natural learning to flourish. It
can be hard for unschoolers to see a 12 yo who is not reading. It
helps a lot to know that many unschooled kids -- though not all and
not the majority! ;-) -- have passed through that and do eventually
read fine.
It's hard being a pioneer. Often the only friends a pioneer has are
their certainty and determination. But for those who lack what's
necessary to be pioneers themselves, the pioneers are often happy to
help others who follow in the trail they've blazed. The pioneers are
out there.
> Right now we are putting some of the traditional academics aside toAn unschooling approach isn't to work on skills. Which shouldn't be
> try and work on his various language processing issues and self help
> skills.
>
interpreted as doing nothing. Unschoolers incorporate their help into
their kids lives as issues come up. They give their kids some help
before an event where they know from past experience the child might
have difficulties in. They give help during the event. They talk
about it afterward. Being there to help and support is a seamless
part of life.
The big difference is they aren't seeing their child as needing to be
at x level of competency so they need to work with the child, but
they will see a child struggling to do something and step in with the
offer of some other tools that might work better. (And one tool might
be to leave and try again some other time.) Rather than moving a
child to a goal the mother feels is necessary, the approach is "I'm
here to help."
> The issue you described, where the reading level (word attack,Whether or not they're recognizing words, if they aren't
> phonics, ect) is considerably above their comprehension is
> termed "hyperlexic".
>
comprehending, they're not reading.
In school, when kids need to read independently by 4th grade, the
myriad ways a child might not be reading is important for teachers
who must get those kids reading. (No one should assume that teachers
actually accomplish that! Special Ed takes the failures and removes
them from the teacher's list.)
My daughter wrote well before she could read. There might be a label
for that in school so the teacher could channel her off to the proper
special reading instruction. At home, it was just her approach and
now at 17 you'd never know she had that special "issue".
For unschoolers there's reading (which means comprehending) and not
reading (which means not comprehending) and a sliding scale between
as the child moves from not reading/comprehending towards reading/
comprehending. (Though comprehension is more of a fuzzy concept than
schools suggest. But if an unschooled child is picking up something
to read, they're comprehending well enough to satisfy themselves.)
> Working onAnd had I done that with my non-autistic daughter before she was
> comprehension and sequencing is a huge part of what I do with my
> ds.
>
ready to read, she would have felt there was something wrong with
her. There are several typical responses to that atmosphere. A child
can internalize a feeling of being incompetent and needful of others
to make them right. A child can decide they're dumb and can't do it.
A child, with a strong sense of self preservation, can decide the
thing they can't do is dumb so why should they try?
By imposing help to do something a child isn't ready (or wanting) to
do, the mom is saying through her actions that the child is
defective and not meeting the mom's standards. It makes no difference
if that thought is far from the mom's mind. It's what the actions say
to the child and words can't negate that.
> I use them aWhich might be useful for some kids. But an unschooler approaches
> lot to make picture schedules, social stories (although I don't do
> them the 'standard' way, for me it is basically taking the task and
> breaking it down into the smallest possible pieces, like "spit in
> sink" is one of the tasks for the "brushing teeth" story, and "look
> at face" is a task in the "how to say hi" story), and visual to-do
> lists.
>
from a different mindset. Instead of seeing where the child is not up
to par, an unschooler sees where her child is struggling and finds
ways to help.
Written out like that, it sounds subtle, but it's profound because it
begins with "I'm here to help," rather than, "I need to work to get
you to point x."
> I have had good luck with Miquon Math (uses Cuisinairre Rods)Again, there seems to be a goal of comprehension by some deadline.
> because it depends much more on visual than most of the other math
> programs I have seen.
>
Had I looked for some particular level of competency in math as my
daughter grew, I might be drawn to some program too.
Math is tricky to learn. Not because it's hard -- it's actually
pretty easy -- but because what's learned out of context often
doesn't translate to real life, or even another program. Becoming
competent at a program doesn't necessarily mean the child understands
the way numbers work in real life. But programs can make the mother
feel she's doing her job.
That's true of language too. A child can sit through Spanish class,
memorizing a few hundred words, demonstrating a competency at putting
them in the right order, and yet not be able to answer a question
asked in the language out in the real world.
What I see in your approach is academic and social skills being
pulled out of context and worked on. That's what schools do. An
unschooling approach is to help the child do what *they're* trying to
do in context.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-> Working on
-=-And had I done that with my non-autistic daughter before she was
ready to read, she would have felt there was something wrong with
her. -=-
EASY opportunities for comprehension and sequencing: Watch videos
and talk about them. Read stories to a child who is playing with
toys. Play with puppets and tell familiar fairy-tale stories (IF the
child wants to, and not if he doesn't).
-=-> I use them a
Taking normal words and using them for things other than they were
intended is a step AWAY from understanding and using language, not
toward it.
If you brush your teeth where they can see you and you spit in the
sink, they'll want to too.
A "visual to-do list" is still a to-do list. Natural learning can
work without lists, but here's a list for people who love lists:
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> comprehension and sequencing is a huge part of what I do with myJoyce wrote:
> ds.
-=-And had I done that with my non-autistic daughter before she was
ready to read, she would have felt there was something wrong with
her. -=-
EASY opportunities for comprehension and sequencing: Watch videos
and talk about them. Read stories to a child who is playing with
toys. Play with puppets and tell familiar fairy-tale stories (IF the
child wants to, and not if he doesn't).
-=-> I use them a
> lot to make picture schedules, social stories (although I don't doWay to ruin the concept of "story."
> them the 'standard' way, for me it is basically taking the task and
> breaking it down into the smallest possible pieces, like "spit in
> sink" is one of the tasks for the "brushing teeth" story, and "look
> at face" is a task in the "how to say hi" story), and visual to-do
> lists.-=-
Taking normal words and using them for things other than they were
intended is a step AWAY from understanding and using language, not
toward it.
If you brush your teeth where they can see you and you spit in the
sink, they'll want to too.
A "visual to-do list" is still a to-do list. Natural learning can
work without lists, but here's a list for people who love lists:
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Because someone linked one of the pages from this section of my website (a little-used
corner, which I've gone and dusted and repaired links on this morning), I was reminded of
this:
Video Games and Autism
http://sandradodd.com/special/videogames
corner, which I've gone and dusted and repaired links on this morning), I was reminded of
this:
Video Games and Autism
http://sandradodd.com/special/videogames
Jennifer Z
So many of the responses, thus far, show the fundamental
misunderstanding of how challenging it is to live with and try to
facilitate somebody who does not process language typically. She
didn't speak to the issue, but often with a verbal and written
language processing difficulty, comes an inablity to understand non-
verbal/body language also. That means they don't have the ability
to pick up anything without explicitly teaching it to them.
Anything. My son didn't understand what Yes and No meant until he
was 5. He didn't have the ability to ask ANY kind of question at
all until he was 6, and so far, the only questions he is able to ask
are "what is that?" and his ability to ask "where is that?" is still
emerging. It will likely be a few years to get to "why is that?"
because it is a higher level skill. I think one of the foundations
of being able to truly unschool and have child led learning is that
they can ask questions. Simply reading to the child and playing
puppets are so insanely pointless I don't even know where to begin.
In this case, the only thing that is doing is making the parent feel
like they are doing something, but they aren't accomplishing squat.
It is just noise to the child who can't process language.
Look at the books at John Holt's first arguement for child led
learning and unschooling. It is that kids learn language with us
just facilitating the process, so why do we assume that they need
anything except our facilitating for all of their other learning
too. Well, my child did not learn language without explicit
intervention. If I had waited, he would still be unable to
communicate (even to tell me that he is hungry) and totally unable
to navigate things that come naturally to my typically developing 2
year old. Your base assumption is not true for all kids.
The use of jargon was intentional. If you are looking for ways to
help facilitate a particularly rare learning style, it gets you to
the infomation a lot faster if you have the correct terms to
google. Much like you used "unschooling" as a label for this forum,
if you are looking for support for the issue she was looking for,
the term "hyperlexic" is going to help, as are terms like "phonetic
awareness", "word attack" (how somebody pronounces words, not some
violent thing), "social stories", "PECs", and "Visual Schedules" I
will not apologize for using the technical terms because they are
there for a reason.
The responses illustrate exactly why parents of special needs kids
can feel so frustrated and alone. I know that I agonized trying to
do radical, pure unschooling with my autistic child. I have
followed John Holts writings for a good 11 years before even having
children, and I was commited to it, so was the other mom I
mentioned. It wasn't working. Our kids didn't have the tools to be
able to learn. He isn't able to move his body (hold a scissors,
pull up his pants, give a thumbs up sign) without somebody else
working with him, hand over hand, and gradually removing the direct
supports. He was frustrated, but since he couldn't read body
langage, he couldn't just watch somebody else do it and infer how to
do it himself. He couldn't just listen to somebody else speak and
infer how to do it himself. It is just not even in the same
ballpark. With help, he is moving towards the ability to initiate
the learning process, moving towards unschooling, but unlike
typically developing kids, he needs help to get to that point.
"Curriculm" isn't a bad word. It doesn't mean we sit down and drill
for hours on end, it means they have cohesive, concrete strategies
for helping somebody learn. It isn't a religion...you don't have to
do it "just so" for it to be valuable and effective. You modify it
for your family's needs. The OP mentioned her dd was struggling
with basic math concepts, and all of those issues go back to
comprehending what a number actually is, how numbers compare to each
other and relate to eachother. Miquon is not a kill and drill, like
most math curriculms. It addresses, directly, exactly what her dd
seems to be struggling with...basic number concepts. It uses visual
supports and manipulatives that make sense to let the child discover
the concepts through play. One of my son's favorite things to do is
play around and build with the cusinairre rods and the bucket of
shapes he has. He has developed a spatial awareness that would
rival most adults playing around with Miquon stuff.
The other curriculm I mentioned addresses, very directly,
comprehension issues, and it does it in a different way than
anything else I have seen. I don't sit down and drill with that
either, but it gave me a new, simple, strategy to help him develop
language and comprehension as we go through the day (I take the key
words and keep them on a binder ring in my pocket so that I can pull
them out and flip through them and help him organize his thoughts).
As he progresses, there are a lot more things we can do, but, again,
just because somebody wrote it down in a book instead of a website
for unschooling does not suddenly transform it to being evil.
I understand the frustration of the OP, even if I don't have a grasp
on the exact issues she is facing as an individual. I understand
how difficult it is when you have tried everything you can think to
try and nothing is reaching your child. I understand what it means
to cry out for help and have people suggest things that you tried
years ago, to no avail. I know what it feels like to be haunted by
the "what if.."s. I especially know what it feels like to be
criticized for my parenting on an almost daily basis by people who
have no clue what real life is like for us...and I get it from a
spectrum of people too...I have people tell me I should spank him,
use time outs, yell at him, just "let him suffer the natural
consequenses" even though his sensory system won't send the message
that "my toes are hurting from the cold, maybe I should put on shoes
for the snow", give him more structure, give him less structure,
give him charts and stickers and graphs, don't praise him because
then he will rely on outside confirmation...every angle, I am doing
it "wrong" according to just about everybody. Well, everybody
except a few speech therapist and other moms of SN kids that also
feel isolated and like there is no place to turn and there are no
answers.
There is no way I can make the onlookers really understand within
the context of a post, but I do want to tell the OP, and others also
struggling, that there are ways to reach your kids, almost everybody
is capable of learning if given the right tools, it just sometimes
takes a while to find the tools that work. You can't be so stuck on
a dogma that you close yourself off to other possibilities. Some
kids don't fit the mold, so you break the mold and you find what
works in your situation.
PS...I went to the "Autism and Video Games" link. I agree with the
poster that support the child following his passion. Video and
computer games have been a major part of helping my son to learn to
read, learn about life, and make connections with people. Cutting
him off from electronics would be like cutting him off from the
air and I won't do it. Not only does he play games with us, but
with friends and my parents (Mennonite, if that gives you an idea of
how much they understand how important this is to him). He can beat
a lot of adults at games, and I think that is pretty cool.
I just think there is a place for learning how to put on clothes and
brush your teeth and get a snack for yourself. You don't have to do
these things at a particular time, or even every day, but you should
know how to do them. Even if he isn't able to live independently,
he will still need to know how to do these things in a group home.
I am far, far more concerned with him keeping his happy, sweet
spirit than any skill. It is why I pulled him out of school (which
I only did because I lost faith in myself for a while) ...he
wasn't coping at all and I wasn't going to force that on him because
it would destroy who he is. I just know that he is happier when he
can get his needs met, and helping him learn how to communicate
those needs is far more important than any academic subject.
Ok...I need to just stop typing because it isn't like I am finding a
nice way to wrap this up. lol
misunderstanding of how challenging it is to live with and try to
facilitate somebody who does not process language typically. She
didn't speak to the issue, but often with a verbal and written
language processing difficulty, comes an inablity to understand non-
verbal/body language also. That means they don't have the ability
to pick up anything without explicitly teaching it to them.
Anything. My son didn't understand what Yes and No meant until he
was 5. He didn't have the ability to ask ANY kind of question at
all until he was 6, and so far, the only questions he is able to ask
are "what is that?" and his ability to ask "where is that?" is still
emerging. It will likely be a few years to get to "why is that?"
because it is a higher level skill. I think one of the foundations
of being able to truly unschool and have child led learning is that
they can ask questions. Simply reading to the child and playing
puppets are so insanely pointless I don't even know where to begin.
In this case, the only thing that is doing is making the parent feel
like they are doing something, but they aren't accomplishing squat.
It is just noise to the child who can't process language.
Look at the books at John Holt's first arguement for child led
learning and unschooling. It is that kids learn language with us
just facilitating the process, so why do we assume that they need
anything except our facilitating for all of their other learning
too. Well, my child did not learn language without explicit
intervention. If I had waited, he would still be unable to
communicate (even to tell me that he is hungry) and totally unable
to navigate things that come naturally to my typically developing 2
year old. Your base assumption is not true for all kids.
The use of jargon was intentional. If you are looking for ways to
help facilitate a particularly rare learning style, it gets you to
the infomation a lot faster if you have the correct terms to
google. Much like you used "unschooling" as a label for this forum,
if you are looking for support for the issue she was looking for,
the term "hyperlexic" is going to help, as are terms like "phonetic
awareness", "word attack" (how somebody pronounces words, not some
violent thing), "social stories", "PECs", and "Visual Schedules" I
will not apologize for using the technical terms because they are
there for a reason.
The responses illustrate exactly why parents of special needs kids
can feel so frustrated and alone. I know that I agonized trying to
do radical, pure unschooling with my autistic child. I have
followed John Holts writings for a good 11 years before even having
children, and I was commited to it, so was the other mom I
mentioned. It wasn't working. Our kids didn't have the tools to be
able to learn. He isn't able to move his body (hold a scissors,
pull up his pants, give a thumbs up sign) without somebody else
working with him, hand over hand, and gradually removing the direct
supports. He was frustrated, but since he couldn't read body
langage, he couldn't just watch somebody else do it and infer how to
do it himself. He couldn't just listen to somebody else speak and
infer how to do it himself. It is just not even in the same
ballpark. With help, he is moving towards the ability to initiate
the learning process, moving towards unschooling, but unlike
typically developing kids, he needs help to get to that point.
"Curriculm" isn't a bad word. It doesn't mean we sit down and drill
for hours on end, it means they have cohesive, concrete strategies
for helping somebody learn. It isn't a religion...you don't have to
do it "just so" for it to be valuable and effective. You modify it
for your family's needs. The OP mentioned her dd was struggling
with basic math concepts, and all of those issues go back to
comprehending what a number actually is, how numbers compare to each
other and relate to eachother. Miquon is not a kill and drill, like
most math curriculms. It addresses, directly, exactly what her dd
seems to be struggling with...basic number concepts. It uses visual
supports and manipulatives that make sense to let the child discover
the concepts through play. One of my son's favorite things to do is
play around and build with the cusinairre rods and the bucket of
shapes he has. He has developed a spatial awareness that would
rival most adults playing around with Miquon stuff.
The other curriculm I mentioned addresses, very directly,
comprehension issues, and it does it in a different way than
anything else I have seen. I don't sit down and drill with that
either, but it gave me a new, simple, strategy to help him develop
language and comprehension as we go through the day (I take the key
words and keep them on a binder ring in my pocket so that I can pull
them out and flip through them and help him organize his thoughts).
As he progresses, there are a lot more things we can do, but, again,
just because somebody wrote it down in a book instead of a website
for unschooling does not suddenly transform it to being evil.
I understand the frustration of the OP, even if I don't have a grasp
on the exact issues she is facing as an individual. I understand
how difficult it is when you have tried everything you can think to
try and nothing is reaching your child. I understand what it means
to cry out for help and have people suggest things that you tried
years ago, to no avail. I know what it feels like to be haunted by
the "what if.."s. I especially know what it feels like to be
criticized for my parenting on an almost daily basis by people who
have no clue what real life is like for us...and I get it from a
spectrum of people too...I have people tell me I should spank him,
use time outs, yell at him, just "let him suffer the natural
consequenses" even though his sensory system won't send the message
that "my toes are hurting from the cold, maybe I should put on shoes
for the snow", give him more structure, give him less structure,
give him charts and stickers and graphs, don't praise him because
then he will rely on outside confirmation...every angle, I am doing
it "wrong" according to just about everybody. Well, everybody
except a few speech therapist and other moms of SN kids that also
feel isolated and like there is no place to turn and there are no
answers.
There is no way I can make the onlookers really understand within
the context of a post, but I do want to tell the OP, and others also
struggling, that there are ways to reach your kids, almost everybody
is capable of learning if given the right tools, it just sometimes
takes a while to find the tools that work. You can't be so stuck on
a dogma that you close yourself off to other possibilities. Some
kids don't fit the mold, so you break the mold and you find what
works in your situation.
PS...I went to the "Autism and Video Games" link. I agree with the
poster that support the child following his passion. Video and
computer games have been a major part of helping my son to learn to
read, learn about life, and make connections with people. Cutting
him off from electronics would be like cutting him off from the
air and I won't do it. Not only does he play games with us, but
with friends and my parents (Mennonite, if that gives you an idea of
how much they understand how important this is to him). He can beat
a lot of adults at games, and I think that is pretty cool.
I just think there is a place for learning how to put on clothes and
brush your teeth and get a snack for yourself. You don't have to do
these things at a particular time, or even every day, but you should
know how to do them. Even if he isn't able to live independently,
he will still need to know how to do these things in a group home.
I am far, far more concerned with him keeping his happy, sweet
spirit than any skill. It is why I pulled him out of school (which
I only did because I lost faith in myself for a while) ...he
wasn't coping at all and I wasn't going to force that on him because
it would destroy who he is. I just know that he is happier when he
can get his needs met, and helping him learn how to communicate
those needs is far more important than any academic subject.
Ok...I need to just stop typing because it isn't like I am finding a
nice way to wrap this up. lol
Sandra Dodd
-=-I just think there is a place for learning how to put on clothes and
brush your teeth and get a snack for yourself. You don't have to do
these things at a particular time, or even every day, but you should
know how to do them.-=-
I don't see how that's different from anyone else's beliefs.
-=-The use of jargon was intentional. If you are looking for ways to
help facilitate a particularly rare learning style, it gets you to
the infomation a lot faster if you have the correct terms to
google. Much like you used "unschooling" as a label for this forum,
if you are looking for support for the issue she was looking for,
the term "hyperlexic" is going to help, as are terms like "phonetic
awareness", "word attack" (how somebody pronounces words, not some
violent thing), "social stories", "PECs", and "Visual Schedules."
I know all this, about word attack and phonetic awareness. I think
probably 90 % of the people on the list do. "Hyperlexic" is really
nonsense outside of reading specialists' masters' theses.
I was making a joke, about "word attack."
-=-I will not apologize for using the technical terms because they
are there for a reason.-=--=-
I will not apologize for working to keep this list which I own free
from technical terms that do not help people understand unschooling
in the least little way.
The technical terms exist for a reason, but that reason doesn't help
anyone unschool.
-=-Simply reading to the child and playing
puppets are so insanely pointless I don't even know where to begin.
In this case, the only thing that is doing is making the parent feel
like they are doing something, but they aren't accomplishing squat.
It is just noise to the child who can't process language.-=-
If a child is used to drawing while the mother reads to him, then
doing other similar things is a possibility.
-=-If I had waited, he would still be unable to communicate (even to
tell me that he is hungry) -=-
Would reaching for food not have been a clue? Was he nursed? I
don't think anyone here waited until a child could tell the mother he
was hungry to feed them.
-=-The use of jargon was intentional. If you are looking for ways to
help facilitate a particularly rare learning style, it gets you to
the infomation a lot faster if you have the correct terms to google.-=-
People can google without knowing the "technical terms" for reading
specialists' sorting charts. I taught reading one year and that was
all. It was craziness. It was just one more way to keep kids sorted
into winners and losers in the public school. I taught English after
that and they did without remedial reading for those next few years,
and the kids were better off without the sorting out.
-=-As he progresses, there are a lot more things we can do, but,
again, just because somebody wrote it down in a book instead of a
website for unschooling does not suddenly transform it to being evil.-=-
Do you really think that people here are accepting things because
unschoolers wrote them instead of critically examining the ideas and
trying them out?
-=-I have followed John Holts writings for a good 11 years before
even having children, and I was commited to it, so was the other mom
I mentioned. It wasn't working.-=-
I don't understand what following John Holt's writings without having
children would look like, unless you were a teacher. But if it's not
working, don't do it! Ditto for anything in the whole wide world.
Find what works and do that. This list exists to help people live
without formal schooling, and I know for sure you'll be able to find
places that support structure and badmouth unschooling, so I don't
understand the problem.
-=-. I understand what it means to cry out for help and have people
suggest things that you tried years ago, to no avail. I know what it
feels like to be haunted by the "what if.."s.-=-
I bet everyone here does too, about something or other. I would be
haunted by "what if" if I didn't work on maintaining a place where
unschooling can be discussed without compromise. I'm not trying to
be mean. There are people who do need a place to discuss
unschooling as purely as possible. This is one of those places.
It's not the only one. But this isn't going to be a place to discuss
how unschooling doesn't work in every situation.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
brush your teeth and get a snack for yourself. You don't have to do
these things at a particular time, or even every day, but you should
know how to do them.-=-
I don't see how that's different from anyone else's beliefs.
-=-The use of jargon was intentional. If you are looking for ways to
help facilitate a particularly rare learning style, it gets you to
the infomation a lot faster if you have the correct terms to
google. Much like you used "unschooling" as a label for this forum,
if you are looking for support for the issue she was looking for,
the term "hyperlexic" is going to help, as are terms like "phonetic
awareness", "word attack" (how somebody pronounces words, not some
violent thing), "social stories", "PECs", and "Visual Schedules."
I know all this, about word attack and phonetic awareness. I think
probably 90 % of the people on the list do. "Hyperlexic" is really
nonsense outside of reading specialists' masters' theses.
I was making a joke, about "word attack."
-=-I will not apologize for using the technical terms because they
are there for a reason.-=--=-
I will not apologize for working to keep this list which I own free
from technical terms that do not help people understand unschooling
in the least little way.
The technical terms exist for a reason, but that reason doesn't help
anyone unschool.
-=-Simply reading to the child and playing
puppets are so insanely pointless I don't even know where to begin.
In this case, the only thing that is doing is making the parent feel
like they are doing something, but they aren't accomplishing squat.
It is just noise to the child who can't process language.-=-
If a child is used to drawing while the mother reads to him, then
doing other similar things is a possibility.
-=-If I had waited, he would still be unable to communicate (even to
tell me that he is hungry) -=-
Would reaching for food not have been a clue? Was he nursed? I
don't think anyone here waited until a child could tell the mother he
was hungry to feed them.
-=-The use of jargon was intentional. If you are looking for ways to
help facilitate a particularly rare learning style, it gets you to
the infomation a lot faster if you have the correct terms to google.-=-
People can google without knowing the "technical terms" for reading
specialists' sorting charts. I taught reading one year and that was
all. It was craziness. It was just one more way to keep kids sorted
into winners and losers in the public school. I taught English after
that and they did without remedial reading for those next few years,
and the kids were better off without the sorting out.
-=-As he progresses, there are a lot more things we can do, but,
again, just because somebody wrote it down in a book instead of a
website for unschooling does not suddenly transform it to being evil.-=-
Do you really think that people here are accepting things because
unschoolers wrote them instead of critically examining the ideas and
trying them out?
-=-I have followed John Holts writings for a good 11 years before
even having children, and I was commited to it, so was the other mom
I mentioned. It wasn't working.-=-
I don't understand what following John Holt's writings without having
children would look like, unless you were a teacher. But if it's not
working, don't do it! Ditto for anything in the whole wide world.
Find what works and do that. This list exists to help people live
without formal schooling, and I know for sure you'll be able to find
places that support structure and badmouth unschooling, so I don't
understand the problem.
-=-. I understand what it means to cry out for help and have people
suggest things that you tried years ago, to no avail. I know what it
feels like to be haunted by the "what if.."s.-=-
I bet everyone here does too, about something or other. I would be
haunted by "what if" if I didn't work on maintaining a place where
unschooling can be discussed without compromise. I'm not trying to
be mean. There are people who do need a place to discuss
unschooling as purely as possible. This is one of those places.
It's not the only one. But this isn't going to be a place to discuss
how unschooling doesn't work in every situation.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
There are other parents with autistic kids that radically unschool.
Even severely autistic children.
I have met one in person and her wonderful kids.
Her blog is:
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0 I am sure she would be OK with me sharing it.
And she has gone from school to radical unschooling. She says her kids are so much better off totally unschooling.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
----- Original Message ----
From: Jennifer Z <jaz_1989@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, October 2, 2008 4:42:03 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: unschooling a child with significant developmental delays
So many of the responses, thus far, show the fundamental
misunderstanding of how challenging it is to live with and try to
facilitate somebody who does not process language typically. She
didn't speak to the issue, but often with a verbal and written
language processing difficulty, comes an inablity to understand non-
verbal/body language also. That means they don't have the ability
to pick up anything without explicitly teaching it to them.
Anything. My son didn't understand what Yes and No meant until he
was 5. He didn't have the ability to ask ANY kind of question at
all until he was 6, and so far, the only questions he is able to ask
are "what is that?" and his ability to ask "where is that?" is still
emerging. It will likely be a few years to get to "why is that?"
because it is a higher level skill. I think one of the foundations
of being able to truly unschool and have child led learning is that
they can ask questions. Simply reading to the child and playing
puppets are so insanely pointless I don't even know where to begin.
In this case, the only thing that is doing is making the parent feel
like they are doing something, but they aren't accomplishing squat.
It is just noise to the child who can't process language.
Look at the books at John Holt's first arguement for child led
learning and unschooling. It is that kids learn language with us
just facilitating the process, so why do we assume that they need
anything except our facilitating for all of their other learning
too. Well, my child did not learn language without explicit
intervention. If I had waited, he would still be unable to
communicate (even to tell me that he is hungry) and totally unable
to navigate things that come naturally to my typically developing 2
year old. Your base assumption is not true for all kids.
The use of jargon was intentional. If you are looking for ways to
help facilitate a particularly rare learning style, it gets you to
the infomation a lot faster if you have the correct terms to
google. Much like you used "unschooling" as a label for this forum,
if you are looking for support for the issue she was looking for,
the term "hyperlexic" is going to help, as are terms like "phonetic
awareness", "word attack" (how somebody pronounces words, not some
violent thing), "social stories", "PECs", and "Visual Schedules" I
will not apologize for using the technical terms because they are
there for a reason.
The responses illustrate exactly why parents of special needs kids
can feel so frustrated and alone. I know that I agonized trying to
do radical, pure unschooling with my autistic child. I have
followed John Holts writings for a good 11 years before even having
children, and I was commited to it, so was the other mom I
mentioned. It wasn't working. Our kids didn't have the tools to be
able to learn. He isn't able to move his body (hold a scissors,
pull up his pants, give a thumbs up sign) without somebody else
working with him, hand over hand, and gradually removing the direct
supports. He was frustrated, but since he couldn't read body
langage, he couldn't just watch somebody else do it and infer how to
do it himself. He couldn't just listen to somebody else speak and
infer how to do it himself. It is just not even in the same
ballpark. With help, he is moving towards the ability to initiate
the learning process, moving towards unschooling, but unlike
typically developing kids, he needs help to get to that point.
"Curriculm" isn't a bad word. It doesn't mean we sit down and drill
for hours on end, it means they have cohesive, concrete strategies
for helping somebody learn. It isn't a religion...you don't have to
do it "just so" for it to be valuable and effective. You modify it
for your family's needs. The OP mentioned her dd was struggling
with basic math concepts, and all of those issues go back to
comprehending what a number actually is, how numbers compare to each
other and relate to eachother. Miquon is not a kill and drill, like
most math curriculms. It addresses, directly, exactly what her dd
seems to be struggling with...basic number concepts. It uses visual
supports and manipulatives that make sense to let the child discover
the concepts through play. One of my son's favorite things to do is
play around and build with the cusinairre rods and the bucket of
shapes he has. He has developed a spatial awareness that would
rival most adults playing around with Miquon stuff.
The other curriculm I mentioned addresses, very directly,
comprehension issues, and it does it in a different way than
anything else I have seen. I don't sit down and drill with that
either, but it gave me a new, simple, strategy to help him develop
language and comprehension as we go through the day (I take the key
words and keep them on a binder ring in my pocket so that I can pull
them out and flip through them and help him organize his thoughts).
As he progresses, there are a lot more things we can do, but, again,
just because somebody wrote it down in a book instead of a website
for unschooling does not suddenly transform it to being evil.
I understand the frustration of the OP, even if I don't have a grasp
on the exact issues she is facing as an individual. I understand
how difficult it is when you have tried everything you can think to
try and nothing is reaching your child. I understand what it means
to cry out for help and have people suggest things that you tried
years ago, to no avail. I know what it feels like to be haunted by
the "what if.."s. I especially know what it feels like to be
criticized for my parenting on an almost daily basis by people who
have no clue what real life is like for us...and I get it from a
spectrum of people too...I have people tell me I should spank him,
use time outs, yell at him, just "let him suffer the natural
consequenses" even though his sensory system won't send the message
that "my toes are hurting from the cold, maybe I should put on shoes
for the snow", give him more structure, give him less structure,
give him charts and stickers and graphs, don't praise him because
then he will rely on outside confirmation. ..every angle, I am doing
it "wrong" according to just about everybody. Well, everybody
except a few speech therapist and other moms of SN kids that also
feel isolated and like there is no place to turn and there are no
answers.
There is no way I can make the onlookers really understand within
the context of a post, but I do want to tell the OP, and others also
struggling, that there are ways to reach your kids, almost everybody
is capable of learning if given the right tools, it just sometimes
takes a while to find the tools that work. You can't be so stuck on
a dogma that you close yourself off to other possibilities. Some
kids don't fit the mold, so you break the mold and you find what
works in your situation.
PS...I went to the "Autism and Video Games" link. I agree with the
poster that support the child following his passion. Video and
computer games have been a major part of helping my son to learn to
read, learn about life, and make connections with people. Cutting
him off from electronics would be like cutting him off from the
air and I won't do it. Not only does he play games with us, but
with friends and my parents (Mennonite, if that gives you an idea of
how much they understand how important this is to him). He can beat
a lot of adults at games, and I think that is pretty cool.
I just think there is a place for learning how to put on clothes and
brush your teeth and get a snack for yourself. You don't have to do
these things at a particular time, or even every day, but you should
know how to do them. Even if he isn't able to live independently,
he will still need to know how to do these things in a group home.
I am far, far more concerned with him keeping his happy, sweet
spirit than any skill. It is why I pulled him out of school (which
I only did because I lost faith in myself for a while) ...he
wasn't coping at all and I wasn't going to force that on him because
it would destroy who he is. I just know that he is happier when he
can get his needs met, and helping him learn how to communicate
those needs is far more important than any academic subject.
Ok...I need to just stop typing because it isn't like I am finding a
nice way to wrap this up. lol
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Even severely autistic children.
I have met one in person and her wonderful kids.
Her blog is:
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0 I am sure she would be OK with me sharing it.
And she has gone from school to radical unschooling. She says her kids are so much better off totally unschooling.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
----- Original Message ----
From: Jennifer Z <jaz_1989@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, October 2, 2008 4:42:03 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: unschooling a child with significant developmental delays
So many of the responses, thus far, show the fundamental
misunderstanding of how challenging it is to live with and try to
facilitate somebody who does not process language typically. She
didn't speak to the issue, but often with a verbal and written
language processing difficulty, comes an inablity to understand non-
verbal/body language also. That means they don't have the ability
to pick up anything without explicitly teaching it to them.
Anything. My son didn't understand what Yes and No meant until he
was 5. He didn't have the ability to ask ANY kind of question at
all until he was 6, and so far, the only questions he is able to ask
are "what is that?" and his ability to ask "where is that?" is still
emerging. It will likely be a few years to get to "why is that?"
because it is a higher level skill. I think one of the foundations
of being able to truly unschool and have child led learning is that
they can ask questions. Simply reading to the child and playing
puppets are so insanely pointless I don't even know where to begin.
In this case, the only thing that is doing is making the parent feel
like they are doing something, but they aren't accomplishing squat.
It is just noise to the child who can't process language.
Look at the books at John Holt's first arguement for child led
learning and unschooling. It is that kids learn language with us
just facilitating the process, so why do we assume that they need
anything except our facilitating for all of their other learning
too. Well, my child did not learn language without explicit
intervention. If I had waited, he would still be unable to
communicate (even to tell me that he is hungry) and totally unable
to navigate things that come naturally to my typically developing 2
year old. Your base assumption is not true for all kids.
The use of jargon was intentional. If you are looking for ways to
help facilitate a particularly rare learning style, it gets you to
the infomation a lot faster if you have the correct terms to
google. Much like you used "unschooling" as a label for this forum,
if you are looking for support for the issue she was looking for,
the term "hyperlexic" is going to help, as are terms like "phonetic
awareness", "word attack" (how somebody pronounces words, not some
violent thing), "social stories", "PECs", and "Visual Schedules" I
will not apologize for using the technical terms because they are
there for a reason.
The responses illustrate exactly why parents of special needs kids
can feel so frustrated and alone. I know that I agonized trying to
do radical, pure unschooling with my autistic child. I have
followed John Holts writings for a good 11 years before even having
children, and I was commited to it, so was the other mom I
mentioned. It wasn't working. Our kids didn't have the tools to be
able to learn. He isn't able to move his body (hold a scissors,
pull up his pants, give a thumbs up sign) without somebody else
working with him, hand over hand, and gradually removing the direct
supports. He was frustrated, but since he couldn't read body
langage, he couldn't just watch somebody else do it and infer how to
do it himself. He couldn't just listen to somebody else speak and
infer how to do it himself. It is just not even in the same
ballpark. With help, he is moving towards the ability to initiate
the learning process, moving towards unschooling, but unlike
typically developing kids, he needs help to get to that point.
"Curriculm" isn't a bad word. It doesn't mean we sit down and drill
for hours on end, it means they have cohesive, concrete strategies
for helping somebody learn. It isn't a religion...you don't have to
do it "just so" for it to be valuable and effective. You modify it
for your family's needs. The OP mentioned her dd was struggling
with basic math concepts, and all of those issues go back to
comprehending what a number actually is, how numbers compare to each
other and relate to eachother. Miquon is not a kill and drill, like
most math curriculms. It addresses, directly, exactly what her dd
seems to be struggling with...basic number concepts. It uses visual
supports and manipulatives that make sense to let the child discover
the concepts through play. One of my son's favorite things to do is
play around and build with the cusinairre rods and the bucket of
shapes he has. He has developed a spatial awareness that would
rival most adults playing around with Miquon stuff.
The other curriculm I mentioned addresses, very directly,
comprehension issues, and it does it in a different way than
anything else I have seen. I don't sit down and drill with that
either, but it gave me a new, simple, strategy to help him develop
language and comprehension as we go through the day (I take the key
words and keep them on a binder ring in my pocket so that I can pull
them out and flip through them and help him organize his thoughts).
As he progresses, there are a lot more things we can do, but, again,
just because somebody wrote it down in a book instead of a website
for unschooling does not suddenly transform it to being evil.
I understand the frustration of the OP, even if I don't have a grasp
on the exact issues she is facing as an individual. I understand
how difficult it is when you have tried everything you can think to
try and nothing is reaching your child. I understand what it means
to cry out for help and have people suggest things that you tried
years ago, to no avail. I know what it feels like to be haunted by
the "what if.."s. I especially know what it feels like to be
criticized for my parenting on an almost daily basis by people who
have no clue what real life is like for us...and I get it from a
spectrum of people too...I have people tell me I should spank him,
use time outs, yell at him, just "let him suffer the natural
consequenses" even though his sensory system won't send the message
that "my toes are hurting from the cold, maybe I should put on shoes
for the snow", give him more structure, give him less structure,
give him charts and stickers and graphs, don't praise him because
then he will rely on outside confirmation. ..every angle, I am doing
it "wrong" according to just about everybody. Well, everybody
except a few speech therapist and other moms of SN kids that also
feel isolated and like there is no place to turn and there are no
answers.
There is no way I can make the onlookers really understand within
the context of a post, but I do want to tell the OP, and others also
struggling, that there are ways to reach your kids, almost everybody
is capable of learning if given the right tools, it just sometimes
takes a while to find the tools that work. You can't be so stuck on
a dogma that you close yourself off to other possibilities. Some
kids don't fit the mold, so you break the mold and you find what
works in your situation.
PS...I went to the "Autism and Video Games" link. I agree with the
poster that support the child following his passion. Video and
computer games have been a major part of helping my son to learn to
read, learn about life, and make connections with people. Cutting
him off from electronics would be like cutting him off from the
air and I won't do it. Not only does he play games with us, but
with friends and my parents (Mennonite, if that gives you an idea of
how much they understand how important this is to him). He can beat
a lot of adults at games, and I think that is pretty cool.
I just think there is a place for learning how to put on clothes and
brush your teeth and get a snack for yourself. You don't have to do
these things at a particular time, or even every day, but you should
know how to do them. Even if he isn't able to live independently,
he will still need to know how to do these things in a group home.
I am far, far more concerned with him keeping his happy, sweet
spirit than any skill. It is why I pulled him out of school (which
I only did because I lost faith in myself for a while) ...he
wasn't coping at all and I wasn't going to force that on him because
it would destroy who he is. I just know that he is happier when he
can get his needs met, and helping him learn how to communicate
those needs is far more important than any academic subject.
Ok...I need to just stop typing because it isn't like I am finding a
nice way to wrap this up. lol
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lyeping2008
Dear Elaine
I'm responding to this purely based on the information that your kid
is possibly a Chinese kid? I agree it seems that she is lacking of
certain skills. I don't know anything you can do on how to help her
become better, but would like to share a common scenario in Asia,
where I'm from.
1. Her personality is quite recognizable in Asia. In Asia, everyone
will know of someone who's known as "something missing from the
head" character. You may think this is rude, but bear in mind the
word "retard" is also the upmost degrading word anyone will call
anyone in Asia.
2. These personalities is accepted in our community, tho not in the
highest regards, but nevertheless accepted for what they are.
Harmless and gullible.
3. They grew up to be very much part of the community. They can be
seen working in many jobs but mostly repitative jobs like serving in
a restaurant, or mechanical workshops. In my community 1 can think
of 2- a male and my friend Rose and another child that I'm
acquianted with for a short while.
The male is known to be very good at fixing any small electrical
stuffs, especially a table fan. Everybody likes him because he's
proved himself to be useful to the community. He can be seen walking
everywhere with bags on his back,and quite often a fan hanging onto
his back. He must now be around his 30s.
My 18 yr old friend Rose is working for the family food business.
She can be seen serving and cleaning along with her older sister at
thier food stall. The family is very typical asian, very re-active
and combustive sort of dynamics, so lots of snapping and shouting
towards each other. So Rose can have a temper when she thinks she's
been wronged LOL! She is very chatting, and curious, asked alot fo
questions and do enjoy the male attention.
Rose eventually married a guy who's very similar to her condition.
She's moved on, and opened her own food stall with the new hubby,
selling the same dishes that she's learned to do all her life. As
far as I can tell, they are both still very gullible and happy and
independant. She still greets me like she's just seen me yesterday,
despite the fact I've been away for the past 5 years.
Juliana, 15 yrs old, comes from a very rich family. She doesn't go
to school and was out of school since she was 9. I supposed the
family is unschooling of some sort. Juliane went to any lessons
Juliana wants, and when she wants. From piano to martial arts to
arts and crafts. As she's now in her teens, she's beginning to take
notice of boys, and she thinks eveyrone that speaks to her is in
love with her LOL! Now, Juliana decides she needs make-up, pretty
dresses and manicure and pedicure. And so this is what her parents
is providing her. They are very concern of the type of boyfriend
she's gonna end up with, so I must say, the matchmaking is in the
process already. But I can see it can be a tricky situation because
Juliana, as gullible and naive as she is, is very strong and
confident of her likes and dislikes. She has her favourite boybands,
and she hates certain actresses because they looked ugly.
4. Most of them are happy. Maybe becuase they are oblivious to alot
of our society's cruel talks and views about them. They are so
gullible that they can be so easily be pacified when annoyed. The
ones that are aggresive are the ones who gets smacked and hit and
shouted at all the time.
5. Families in Asia do not place alot of expectations of any sort on
these children. They just accept their limitations, and go along
with it. The family just focused on teaching life skills the best
they can and protect them from all the baddies around. One of the
upmost fear is that if these kids should fall into the hands of bad
company, which is why a family responsibilities towards such
children never ends even when they are married and become parents
themselves.
The family all do hope eventually, they will be able to find the
right marriage partner for thier child, to what I can tell, the
girls are certainly more aware of boyfriends and marriage, but I
don't know about the boys.
None of them thinks of professional help maybe because
1) there is no such thing existing until quite recently; and
2) they understood that this is the character of thier children,
they just accept it. It's not an illness that can be fixed. Afterall
the illness has already occured when in the tummy, which caused the
child to be like this. They just move forwards trying to make the
best of everything. So we do have cases whereby families abndoned
these children in private care homes or orphanage.
As for severe autism cases, I'm not too sure what to think of it. I
have spoken to someone who's homeschooling an autistic child. They
are using professionals to teach their kid to verbalise things. The
method she mentioned to me sounds so cruel, but then I'm not in that
position, so I cannot agree or disagree.
I suppose the question i asked myself too. If my child is just
sitting there, not moving, not talking, not responding, just
absorded into his own world, what would I do? Would I imposed series
of activities, forcing him out of that world? Or would I just spend
more time with him, constantly connecting and talking with him,
until he's ready to come out of his shell?
I really dont' know but I do know, when my aspie kid was slightly
over a year old, we thought he was deaf and had him checked out. He
wasn't. Thinking back now, we knew it's possibly an autistic sign
that we missed. He was a loner. But it never bothered us knowing he
was slightly different, so we just carried on interacting with him
all the time. We also realised that from his asperger's diagnostics,
that he wasn't actually verbal speaking to us until he was about
nearly 2. I guessed I must have been so intuned with my kid, maybe
it's telepathy - I've read somewhere it's possible LOL!!! Now at age
8, he's a talkative, not stop hyper ball of opinions and views. My
child is hyperlexic. He was reading at age 4.
We refused to conform to all the standard school expectations and
rules, so we took him out of school, and allow him to grow according
to his own natural agenda.
So you see, the expectations and views back home in Asia, is so much
more basic and simple. I hope this helps to lighten up your burden.
Best Wishes,
SharonBugs.
I'm responding to this purely based on the information that your kid
is possibly a Chinese kid? I agree it seems that she is lacking of
certain skills. I don't know anything you can do on how to help her
become better, but would like to share a common scenario in Asia,
where I'm from.
1. Her personality is quite recognizable in Asia. In Asia, everyone
will know of someone who's known as "something missing from the
head" character. You may think this is rude, but bear in mind the
word "retard" is also the upmost degrading word anyone will call
anyone in Asia.
2. These personalities is accepted in our community, tho not in the
highest regards, but nevertheless accepted for what they are.
Harmless and gullible.
3. They grew up to be very much part of the community. They can be
seen working in many jobs but mostly repitative jobs like serving in
a restaurant, or mechanical workshops. In my community 1 can think
of 2- a male and my friend Rose and another child that I'm
acquianted with for a short while.
The male is known to be very good at fixing any small electrical
stuffs, especially a table fan. Everybody likes him because he's
proved himself to be useful to the community. He can be seen walking
everywhere with bags on his back,and quite often a fan hanging onto
his back. He must now be around his 30s.
My 18 yr old friend Rose is working for the family food business.
She can be seen serving and cleaning along with her older sister at
thier food stall. The family is very typical asian, very re-active
and combustive sort of dynamics, so lots of snapping and shouting
towards each other. So Rose can have a temper when she thinks she's
been wronged LOL! She is very chatting, and curious, asked alot fo
questions and do enjoy the male attention.
Rose eventually married a guy who's very similar to her condition.
She's moved on, and opened her own food stall with the new hubby,
selling the same dishes that she's learned to do all her life. As
far as I can tell, they are both still very gullible and happy and
independant. She still greets me like she's just seen me yesterday,
despite the fact I've been away for the past 5 years.
Juliana, 15 yrs old, comes from a very rich family. She doesn't go
to school and was out of school since she was 9. I supposed the
family is unschooling of some sort. Juliane went to any lessons
Juliana wants, and when she wants. From piano to martial arts to
arts and crafts. As she's now in her teens, she's beginning to take
notice of boys, and she thinks eveyrone that speaks to her is in
love with her LOL! Now, Juliana decides she needs make-up, pretty
dresses and manicure and pedicure. And so this is what her parents
is providing her. They are very concern of the type of boyfriend
she's gonna end up with, so I must say, the matchmaking is in the
process already. But I can see it can be a tricky situation because
Juliana, as gullible and naive as she is, is very strong and
confident of her likes and dislikes. She has her favourite boybands,
and she hates certain actresses because they looked ugly.
4. Most of them are happy. Maybe becuase they are oblivious to alot
of our society's cruel talks and views about them. They are so
gullible that they can be so easily be pacified when annoyed. The
ones that are aggresive are the ones who gets smacked and hit and
shouted at all the time.
5. Families in Asia do not place alot of expectations of any sort on
these children. They just accept their limitations, and go along
with it. The family just focused on teaching life skills the best
they can and protect them from all the baddies around. One of the
upmost fear is that if these kids should fall into the hands of bad
company, which is why a family responsibilities towards such
children never ends even when they are married and become parents
themselves.
The family all do hope eventually, they will be able to find the
right marriage partner for thier child, to what I can tell, the
girls are certainly more aware of boyfriends and marriage, but I
don't know about the boys.
None of them thinks of professional help maybe because
1) there is no such thing existing until quite recently; and
2) they understood that this is the character of thier children,
they just accept it. It's not an illness that can be fixed. Afterall
the illness has already occured when in the tummy, which caused the
child to be like this. They just move forwards trying to make the
best of everything. So we do have cases whereby families abndoned
these children in private care homes or orphanage.
As for severe autism cases, I'm not too sure what to think of it. I
have spoken to someone who's homeschooling an autistic child. They
are using professionals to teach their kid to verbalise things. The
method she mentioned to me sounds so cruel, but then I'm not in that
position, so I cannot agree or disagree.
I suppose the question i asked myself too. If my child is just
sitting there, not moving, not talking, not responding, just
absorded into his own world, what would I do? Would I imposed series
of activities, forcing him out of that world? Or would I just spend
more time with him, constantly connecting and talking with him,
until he's ready to come out of his shell?
I really dont' know but I do know, when my aspie kid was slightly
over a year old, we thought he was deaf and had him checked out. He
wasn't. Thinking back now, we knew it's possibly an autistic sign
that we missed. He was a loner. But it never bothered us knowing he
was slightly different, so we just carried on interacting with him
all the time. We also realised that from his asperger's diagnostics,
that he wasn't actually verbal speaking to us until he was about
nearly 2. I guessed I must have been so intuned with my kid, maybe
it's telepathy - I've read somewhere it's possible LOL!!! Now at age
8, he's a talkative, not stop hyper ball of opinions and views. My
child is hyperlexic. He was reading at age 4.
We refused to conform to all the standard school expectations and
rules, so we took him out of school, and allow him to grow according
to his own natural agenda.
So you see, the expectations and views back home in Asia, is so much
more basic and simple. I hope this helps to lighten up your burden.
Best Wishes,
SharonBugs.
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 2, 2008, at 5:42 PM, Jennifer Z wrote:
trail.
Or you decide you need to do something else that you feel you can
work with.
But it doesn't help to announce on a list that contains pioneers who
are blazing their own trails that it can't be done.
reading elsewhere and deciding for themselves. Some will decide they
can't do it. But if someone decides they can't do it, that doesn't
mean it can't be done.
questions. Some kids ask a few. But saying asking questions is a
foundation of unschooling assumes kids need the answers to questions
handed to them in order to learn.
The foundation of unschooling is the understanding that people
naturally learn by trying things to see what happens. It's how we're
wired to learn.
can't demonstrate number comprehension and think Miquon sounds good.
Sometimes kids will give us glimpses into their inner workings, but
asking for a demonstration can lead to false conclusions.
If someone's worried about their child's math or whatever, ask here.
The advantage of typical children is that there's more likely to be
"Yes, my son was just like that and turned out fine," responses. It
*is* hard being a pioneer. There isn't as much support. Not everyone
is cut out for it. But if someone's on a pioneer path it's much more
useful to read the accounts of other pioneers -- and blogs are a
great resource that didn't exist when I started :-) -- than the
accounts of those who stopped along the path for whatever reason.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> So many of the responses, thus far, show the fundamentalWhich is why it's better to seek out unschoolers who have blazed a
> misunderstanding of how challenging it is to live with and try to
> facilitate somebody who does not process language typically.
trail.
Or you decide you need to do something else that you feel you can
work with.
But it doesn't help to announce on a list that contains pioneers who
are blazing their own trails that it can't be done.
> You can't be so stuck onNo one should treat one list as the final word. People *should* be
> a dogma that you close yourself off to other possibilities.
>
reading elsewhere and deciding for themselves. Some will decide they
can't do it. But if someone decides they can't do it, that doesn't
mean it can't be done.
> I think one of the foundationsIt's useful to be able to ask questions. Some kids ask a lot of
> of being able to truly unschool and have child led learning is that
> they can ask questions.
>
questions. Some kids ask a few. But saying asking questions is a
foundation of unschooling assumes kids need the answers to questions
handed to them in order to learn.
The foundation of unschooling is the understanding that people
naturally learn by trying things to see what happens. It's how we're
wired to learn.
> The OP mentioned her dd was strugglingAnd no one should look at the above with the fear that their child
> with basic math concepts, and all of those issues go back to
> comprehending what a number actually is, how numbers compare to each
> other and relate to eachother. Miquon is not a kill and drill, like
> most math curriculms.
>
can't demonstrate number comprehension and think Miquon sounds good.
Sometimes kids will give us glimpses into their inner workings, but
asking for a demonstration can lead to false conclusions.
If someone's worried about their child's math or whatever, ask here.
The advantage of typical children is that there's more likely to be
"Yes, my son was just like that and turned out fine," responses. It
*is* hard being a pioneer. There isn't as much support. Not everyone
is cut out for it. But if someone's on a pioneer path it's much more
useful to read the accounts of other pioneers -- and blogs are a
great resource that didn't exist when I started :-) -- than the
accounts of those who stopped along the path for whatever reason.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hpmarker
Hi, Jennifer--
A child does not need to speak to lead. A non-verbal child can lead
very effectively by having his activities and interests joined into and
mirrored. One of the great things about children who might be labeled
as having an ASD is that their passions are often really obvious, even
if they don't speak.
There was a show on Discovery Health the other night about a family
with six kids said to be on the spectrum. One of the kids, who is non-
verbal, has a passion for watching doors that shut on their own. He
was at a gym for therapy that amounted to your description of "playing
puppets," when what he really wanted to do was hang out by the gym
door, open it, and watch it close on its own. It would have been so
great if someone had hung out with him to follow his passion, instead
of leading him away from the door every time to force him to do the
equivalent of "playing puppets."
-Hallie
--- In [email protected], "Jennifer Z" <jaz_1989@...>
wrote:
A child does not need to speak to lead. A non-verbal child can lead
very effectively by having his activities and interests joined into and
mirrored. One of the great things about children who might be labeled
as having an ASD is that their passions are often really obvious, even
if they don't speak.
There was a show on Discovery Health the other night about a family
with six kids said to be on the spectrum. One of the kids, who is non-
verbal, has a passion for watching doors that shut on their own. He
was at a gym for therapy that amounted to your description of "playing
puppets," when what he really wanted to do was hang out by the gym
door, open it, and watch it close on its own. It would have been so
great if someone had hung out with him to follow his passion, instead
of leading him away from the door every time to force him to do the
equivalent of "playing puppets."
-Hallie
--- In [email protected], "Jennifer Z" <jaz_1989@...>
wrote:
>I think one of the foundations
> of being able to truly unschool and have child led learning is that
> they can ask questions. Simply reading to the child and playing
> puppets are so insanely pointless I don't even know where to begin.
> In this case, the only thing that is doing is making the parent feel
> like they are doing something, but they aren't accomplishing squat.
> It is just noise to the child who can't process language.
Gold Standard
I would like to respond to two or three posts in one post here, since it
doesn't really matter who said what...it's the ideas I'd like to respond to:
I have a 19 yo son who has many autistic traits. He has either unschooled or
chosen school (a couple of years of high school in an art school) his whole
life. He has what some would call "severe" issues. In fact, without my
knowledge, a psychologist at the school termed him "severely disabled" on
paper. I only describe him in these ways as a means of showing that he
probably compares to how other autistic-like kids were described here. He
was probably quite similar to how another young child was described in this
thread when he was that age.
their needs, providing the things that give them joy, pleasantly providing
information (in whatever way is most helpful to the child), creating the
environment that gives them the most peace (while sometimes adding more
elements of society as they are ready to handle them) and most of all,
living with the attitude that all is well and that their young person is
perfect as he is...what is unpure about that?
With a focus on what our children do well and what they are passionate about
(even if it is red buttons that twirl), we can see who they are and where
they shine.
Some kids show a need to be hand-held through things that others fly through
with ease. My son wouldn't/couldn't walk through doorways, particularly if
there were people on the other side, for many years. This presented barriers
in the world that most people don't have. So we would stand together outside
of whatever doorway was the barrier until he and I figured out how he could
get through it with the least amount of anxiety. Eventually, doorways were
not so much an issue. Though to this day he will stop outside a new doorway
and think and breathe before getting over the anxiety to go in, but he has
developed this skill, and can now go into a world of doorways on his own.
Sometimes we had to get through a doorway more quickly than he was ready
for, btw. I sometimes had to carry him through apologizing for not having
the time to go more slowly. Because most of the time we went through
doorways at his pace, he never seemed to hold it against me.
that was given of homeschooling an autistic child was not
unschooling, it was more traditional, structured homeschooling.<<
Haven't read John on the subject of autism, but can say that for my guy, I
did have to slow down for all kinds of things that my other three children
"got" quite naturally. I learned from him what helped and what didn't. His
stress level showed me what and when to stop. His joy or lack thereof showed
me which directions to go. He was usually open to my guidance in the areas
that he needed to function in life (using the bathroom properly, public
place behavior, etc.) because of the respect and admiration we gave him.
Someone said earlier that math is easy actually. I don't think my guy has a
math chip, or at least his math chip is not like anyone else's I've
encountered. It is interesting to watch as he tries to put this kind of
thinking together. He has some functional math-type skills...can add objects
and in his head pretty easily now. He couldn't measure in a measuring cup
until recently, and frankly, opposes the whole idea that anything SHOULD be
exact (and this kind of thinking has opened worlds to me, thank you ds).
Numbers on paper are aliens at this point. He can read, though mostly skims
as far as I can tell. He can't count money or change, though we've done
gazillions of real life activities around it, in fun. I did try some
structured teaching around this and that was not worth the damage to our
relationship. Right now he functions on trust at the stores, pays for things
and doesn't even try to count the change. So this got us to thinking...how
many situations do people actually get the wrong change back in a
significant way (I mean by tens)? I know it happens occasionally, but not
enough for me to try to drill something in my son's head that it's not ready
for or not accepting, for whatever reason. He knows he has these pretty big
gaps, and tries to work on them himself.
For instance, his sense of direction. He can get lost in our little
neighborhood. He wants independence. He has been taking driving lessons for
over a year, and it's not clear whether he'll be able to get his license
anytime soon. So he walks and recently starting hopping on the bus. We
continue to work on this one. He's gotten very lost in far away places on
the bus system (thank god for cell phones!!). I've picked him up twice from
police calls when someone was concerned about a wandering man who "looked
out of it" called the police...that's how he looks often in public...out of
it.
When police have questioned him, they quickly understand that he is a good
guy lost. That's what he was!
So to continue to help him live in this world, we've made maps and had
written instructions for what to do when lost, he carries ID with emergency
phone numbers, he has three family phone numbers memorized...all this just
to be able to go somewhere outside of home without a parent. At almost 20
years old. Even the trips where he ended up lost and/or with police
involvement were just part of his journey.
There is no curriculum out there that will follow our individual children's
needs and passions. Read them for your own knowledge maybe to see if you get
some tips or ideas, but using a whole curriculum for anyone is just a
daunting thing to even think about.
Pure unschooling to me means all of the things above. However I can equip
myself (reading websites, curriculums, talking to "professionals") is great
for me. But as soon as I take my eye off my child and what they are telling
me, I will get confused and pulled in an "off" direction. THAT has rung loud
and clear my son's whole lovely life.
Jacki
doesn't really matter who said what...it's the ideas I'd like to respond to:
I have a 19 yo son who has many autistic traits. He has either unschooled or
chosen school (a couple of years of high school in an art school) his whole
life. He has what some would call "severe" issues. In fact, without my
knowledge, a psychologist at the school termed him "severely disabled" on
paper. I only describe him in these ways as a means of showing that he
probably compares to how other autistic-like kids were described here. He
was probably quite similar to how another young child was described in this
thread when he was that age.
>>PureIf one is mindfully watching and learning about their child, responding to
>>unschooling for them just wasn't working for our auties.<<
their needs, providing the things that give them joy, pleasantly providing
information (in whatever way is most helpful to the child), creating the
environment that gives them the most peace (while sometimes adding more
elements of society as they are ready to handle them) and most of all,
living with the attitude that all is well and that their young person is
perfect as he is...what is unpure about that?
With a focus on what our children do well and what they are passionate about
(even if it is red buttons that twirl), we can see who they are and where
they shine.
Some kids show a need to be hand-held through things that others fly through
with ease. My son wouldn't/couldn't walk through doorways, particularly if
there were people on the other side, for many years. This presented barriers
in the world that most people don't have. So we would stand together outside
of whatever doorway was the barrier until he and I figured out how he could
get through it with the least amount of anxiety. Eventually, doorways were
not so much an issue. Though to this day he will stop outside a new doorway
and think and breathe before getting over the anxiety to go in, but he has
developed this skill, and can now go into a world of doorways on his own.
Sometimes we had to get through a doorway more quickly than he was ready
for, btw. I sometimes had to carry him through apologizing for not having
the time to go more slowly. Because most of the time we went through
doorways at his pace, he never seemed to hold it against me.
>>When Iwent to read what John Holt had to say on the subject, the example
that was given of homeschooling an autistic child was not
unschooling, it was more traditional, structured homeschooling.<<
Haven't read John on the subject of autism, but can say that for my guy, I
did have to slow down for all kinds of things that my other three children
"got" quite naturally. I learned from him what helped and what didn't. His
stress level showed me what and when to stop. His joy or lack thereof showed
me which directions to go. He was usually open to my guidance in the areas
that he needed to function in life (using the bathroom properly, public
place behavior, etc.) because of the respect and admiration we gave him.
Someone said earlier that math is easy actually. I don't think my guy has a
math chip, or at least his math chip is not like anyone else's I've
encountered. It is interesting to watch as he tries to put this kind of
thinking together. He has some functional math-type skills...can add objects
and in his head pretty easily now. He couldn't measure in a measuring cup
until recently, and frankly, opposes the whole idea that anything SHOULD be
exact (and this kind of thinking has opened worlds to me, thank you ds).
Numbers on paper are aliens at this point. He can read, though mostly skims
as far as I can tell. He can't count money or change, though we've done
gazillions of real life activities around it, in fun. I did try some
structured teaching around this and that was not worth the damage to our
relationship. Right now he functions on trust at the stores, pays for things
and doesn't even try to count the change. So this got us to thinking...how
many situations do people actually get the wrong change back in a
significant way (I mean by tens)? I know it happens occasionally, but not
enough for me to try to drill something in my son's head that it's not ready
for or not accepting, for whatever reason. He knows he has these pretty big
gaps, and tries to work on them himself.
For instance, his sense of direction. He can get lost in our little
neighborhood. He wants independence. He has been taking driving lessons for
over a year, and it's not clear whether he'll be able to get his license
anytime soon. So he walks and recently starting hopping on the bus. We
continue to work on this one. He's gotten very lost in far away places on
the bus system (thank god for cell phones!!). I've picked him up twice from
police calls when someone was concerned about a wandering man who "looked
out of it" called the police...that's how he looks often in public...out of
it.
When police have questioned him, they quickly understand that he is a good
guy lost. That's what he was!
So to continue to help him live in this world, we've made maps and had
written instructions for what to do when lost, he carries ID with emergency
phone numbers, he has three family phone numbers memorized...all this just
to be able to go somewhere outside of home without a parent. At almost 20
years old. Even the trips where he ended up lost and/or with police
involvement were just part of his journey.
>>Now, I have found that a traditional curriculum does not work verywell<<
There is no curriculum out there that will follow our individual children's
needs and passions. Read them for your own knowledge maybe to see if you get
some tips or ideas, but using a whole curriculum for anyone is just a
daunting thing to even think about.
Pure unschooling to me means all of the things above. However I can equip
myself (reading websites, curriculums, talking to "professionals") is great
for me. But as soon as I take my eye off my child and what they are telling
me, I will get confused and pulled in an "off" direction. THAT has rung loud
and clear my son's whole lovely life.
Jacki
Sandra Dodd
-=-Not everyone
is cut out for it. But if someone's on a pioneer path it's much more
useful to read the accounts of other pioneers -- and blogs are a
great resource that didn't exist when I started :-) -- than the
accounts of those who stopped along the path for whatever reason.-=-
I think sometimes it's good for people to remember that some people
do give up, and later are sorry they did. It might encourage people
to stay on the path (or at least keep looking to see if others like
you have succeeded on the path, and blogs are GREAT for that!)
I have a page where I was collecting blogs, and it's here
http://sandradodd.com/blogs
but there's a link up to there now to this:
http://thinkingsticks.blogspot.com
On the left there are blogs, and I'll add more, but most of those
also have a similar list of blogs, so one can just hop around and
read what seems good and see photos of the daily doings of
unschoolers. It's a WONDERFUL thing, and makes pages like this seem
quaint and dusty:
http://sandradodd.com/typical
but I'm willing to be a curator of some things that will become more
and more quaint, because it's also good to know that just a few years
ago, unschooling information wasn't so easy to share or find. And in
the unschooling lifetime of many people on this list, there was no
such thing as a list. MANY of us started unschooling when we needed
to depend on Growing Without Schooling to come every other month.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
is cut out for it. But if someone's on a pioneer path it's much more
useful to read the accounts of other pioneers -- and blogs are a
great resource that didn't exist when I started :-) -- than the
accounts of those who stopped along the path for whatever reason.-=-
I think sometimes it's good for people to remember that some people
do give up, and later are sorry they did. It might encourage people
to stay on the path (or at least keep looking to see if others like
you have succeeded on the path, and blogs are GREAT for that!)
I have a page where I was collecting blogs, and it's here
http://sandradodd.com/blogs
but there's a link up to there now to this:
http://thinkingsticks.blogspot.com
On the left there are blogs, and I'll add more, but most of those
also have a similar list of blogs, so one can just hop around and
read what seems good and see photos of the daily doings of
unschoolers. It's a WONDERFUL thing, and makes pages like this seem
quaint and dusty:
http://sandradodd.com/typical
but I'm willing to be a curator of some things that will become more
and more quaint, because it's also good to know that just a few years
ago, unschooling information wasn't so easy to share or find. And in
the unschooling lifetime of many people on this list, there was no
such thing as a list. MANY of us started unschooling when we needed
to depend on Growing Without Schooling to come every other month.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
http://sandradodd.com/t/holly
There's something Jacki wrote when her daughter made a beautiful,
artistic meal (right, and border).
And from this thread I've saved this part:
http://sandradodd.com/special/autism
I know people could find it in the archives, but moving it lets the
anti-unschooling comments be anonymous.
I might add other comments there later.
I've been (again) in urgent care for hours with Marty. I'm tired,
but not as tired as poor Marty is. I have less faith in doctors now
that I had last week, and that already wasn't very much.
Sandra
There's something Jacki wrote when her daughter made a beautiful,
artistic meal (right, and border).
And from this thread I've saved this part:
http://sandradodd.com/special/autism
I know people could find it in the archives, but moving it lets the
anti-unschooling comments be anonymous.
I might add other comments there later.
I've been (again) in urgent care for hours with Marty. I'm tired,
but not as tired as poor Marty is. I have less faith in doctors now
that I had last week, and that already wasn't very much.
Sandra