Oh, and about "bad language"
prism7513
I was also curious how you handled cussing? I do not swear, and I
would like my children not to swear, or at least not until they are
older and know when it is not respectful to other people. I understand
that in the real world people use these words, but I DO get offended
(maybe I shouldn't - I've just always felt it showed a lack of
vocabulary, which I tend to have, ironically...)
When in books or in movies, I just tend to ignore the language. So I'm
not stuck-up about it, just prefer not to use it here at home or in
most public places around people.
For now I've just told the kids that there are some words that aren't
nice to say, and leave it at that. They haven't asked or anything...
Deb
would like my children not to swear, or at least not until they are
older and know when it is not respectful to other people. I understand
that in the real world people use these words, but I DO get offended
(maybe I shouldn't - I've just always felt it showed a lack of
vocabulary, which I tend to have, ironically...)
When in books or in movies, I just tend to ignore the language. So I'm
not stuck-up about it, just prefer not to use it here at home or in
most public places around people.
For now I've just told the kids that there are some words that aren't
nice to say, and leave it at that. They haven't asked or anything...
Deb
Nicole Willoughby
Well its going to look a lot different in my house prob ....I have a rotten mouth lol.
Thing is my kids seldom curse and never at the wrong time. Ive never really given them a lecture on the topic or anything heh i guess they have just watched me.
For example the other day one of kid dropped their plate of food on the floor and said ah sh**. I have never heard them utter a curse or anything that might be remotely offfensive in front of grandma, out in public, etc.
For me, I have to trust them to learn this just as i trust them to learn anything else. Yes they might make a mistake but mistakes are part of life.
Nicole
Don't worry that children never listen to you : worry that they are always watching you--Robert Fulghum
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thing is my kids seldom curse and never at the wrong time. Ive never really given them a lecture on the topic or anything heh i guess they have just watched me.
For example the other day one of kid dropped their plate of food on the floor and said ah sh**. I have never heard them utter a curse or anything that might be remotely offfensive in front of grandma, out in public, etc.
For me, I have to trust them to learn this just as i trust them to learn anything else. Yes they might make a mistake but mistakes are part of life.
Nicole
Don't worry that children never listen to you : worry that they are always watching you--Robert Fulghum
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jason & Stephanie
For example the other day one of kid dropped their plate of food on the floor and said ah sh**. I have never heard them utter a curse or anything that might be remotely offfensive in front of grandma, out in public, etc.
For me, I have to trust them to learn this just as i trust them to learn anything else. Yes they might make a mistake but mistakes are part of life.
********My 6 yr old swears, first of all I do use strong language on occasion because sometime it's appropriate. He learned several words from the music he likes, he is also very interested in ratings of movies and video games. He knows all the ratings and he knows why they are rated that way. He even makes up his own games and rates them accordingly, blood, violence, language etc.
On this topic he has learned so much that I don't want to discount his desire to know this information. We have talked about the words and how some people are offended and where they aren't appropriate etc. I believe that he understands because he only does it at home. I do have a slight fear that he might slip up around other children whose parents would flip but so far so good. He even beeps himself out, it's quite comical actually.
I'm pretty sure he'll grow out of it and move on to his next interest so we aren't giving it extra attention just talk about it as we go.
Words are just words until someone gives them power, I don't believe there are bad words just words given too much attention by our society.
Stephanie in TN
http://www.learningthroughliving-stephanie.blogspot.com
http://familyrun.ning.com/profile/Stephanie
"We destroy the love of learning in children, which is so strong when they are small, by encouraging and compelling them to work for petty rewards."
~John Holt
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
For me, I have to trust them to learn this just as i trust them to learn anything else. Yes they might make a mistake but mistakes are part of life.
********My 6 yr old swears, first of all I do use strong language on occasion because sometime it's appropriate. He learned several words from the music he likes, he is also very interested in ratings of movies and video games. He knows all the ratings and he knows why they are rated that way. He even makes up his own games and rates them accordingly, blood, violence, language etc.
On this topic he has learned so much that I don't want to discount his desire to know this information. We have talked about the words and how some people are offended and where they aren't appropriate etc. I believe that he understands because he only does it at home. I do have a slight fear that he might slip up around other children whose parents would flip but so far so good. He even beeps himself out, it's quite comical actually.
I'm pretty sure he'll grow out of it and move on to his next interest so we aren't giving it extra attention just talk about it as we go.
Words are just words until someone gives them power, I don't believe there are bad words just words given too much attention by our society.
Stephanie in TN
http://www.learningthroughliving-stephanie.blogspot.com
http://familyrun.ning.com/profile/Stephanie
"We destroy the love of learning in children, which is so strong when they are small, by encouraging and compelling them to work for petty rewards."
~John Holt
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 24, 2008, at 12:23 AM, prism7513 wrote:
at least not until they are older ...
I don't watch TV and I would like my children not to watch TV, or at
least not until they are older ...
I don't watch scary movies and I would like my children not to watch
scary movies, or at least not until they are older ...
I don't read books and I would like my children not to read books, or
at least not until they are older ...
The first step is to recognize that they're separate people. And your
unschooling job is to help them be who they are not who you want them
to be.
That said, unless your husband swears or they're regularly around
other people they like who swear, it's not likely they will while
they're young.
But if they do, kids don't naturally want to hurt others so we can
help them by passing on tips on appropriate places to use swears if
they're not catching on. I wouldn't immediately assume that they
don't understand as soon as you hear a swear. My daughter liked to
eat sprawled across the table when she was little, but she never did
it at other people's houses or restaurants. ;-) Most kids can pick up
social clues just by living life :-)
Joyce
> I do not swear, and II don't eat sugar and I would like my children not to eat sugar, or
> would like my children not to swear, or at least not until they are
> older
at least not until they are older ...
I don't watch TV and I would like my children not to watch TV, or at
least not until they are older ...
I don't watch scary movies and I would like my children not to watch
scary movies, or at least not until they are older ...
I don't read books and I would like my children not to read books, or
at least not until they are older ...
The first step is to recognize that they're separate people. And your
unschooling job is to help them be who they are not who you want them
to be.
That said, unless your husband swears or they're regularly around
other people they like who swear, it's not likely they will while
they're young.
But if they do, kids don't naturally want to hurt others so we can
help them by passing on tips on appropriate places to use swears if
they're not catching on. I wouldn't immediately assume that they
don't understand as soon as you hear a swear. My daughter liked to
eat sprawled across the table when she was little, but she never did
it at other people's houses or restaurants. ;-) Most kids can pick up
social clues just by living life :-)
Joyce
Sandra Dodd
-=-I understand
that in the real world people use these words, but I DO get offended
(maybe I shouldn't - I've just always felt it showed a lack of
vocabulary, which I tend to have, ironically...)-=-
Two points about that:
Your house is part of the real world.
and
Did you "fell" it showed a lack of vocabulary, or have you heard that
and internalized it and repeated it?
-=-For now I've just told the kids that there are some words that
aren't nice to say, and leave it at that. They haven't asked or
anything...-=-
Between now and when they ask, you have time to examine your beliefs
and feelings, and as you move more into principles, it will make it
easier to figure out when the time comes (if it does) how to handle
the next phase.
"Cussing" is a term for "cursing," which has to do with the power of
words to condemn people, or the meanness and hubris (sin of thinking
you have power or importance) of telling someone you hope they burn
in hellfire, or even the shortened version of "go to hell" or the
older "damn you" which is short for "May God damn you to hell."
So those are strong words. Those are curses.
"You're a son of a bitch" isn't a curse, it's just an insult. But
somewhere in the past few centuries in the U.S., at least, they were
generalized to "cussing" and condemned along with native Anglo-Saxon
non-medical terms involving anything sexual or scatological.
I think someone who doesn't say much more than "Shit" and "Dude"
might be displaying a lack of vocabulary, but someone who knows six
synonyms for "vagina" and fifteen for "penis" can't possibly be
accused of a small vocabulary.
The trick then is the awareness of appropriate times and places to
use those words, and when it's not courteous.
It has to do with courtesy, discretion, choices, mindfulness--all the
good stuff.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
that in the real world people use these words, but I DO get offended
(maybe I shouldn't - I've just always felt it showed a lack of
vocabulary, which I tend to have, ironically...)-=-
Two points about that:
Your house is part of the real world.
and
Did you "fell" it showed a lack of vocabulary, or have you heard that
and internalized it and repeated it?
-=-For now I've just told the kids that there are some words that
aren't nice to say, and leave it at that. They haven't asked or
anything...-=-
Between now and when they ask, you have time to examine your beliefs
and feelings, and as you move more into principles, it will make it
easier to figure out when the time comes (if it does) how to handle
the next phase.
"Cussing" is a term for "cursing," which has to do with the power of
words to condemn people, or the meanness and hubris (sin of thinking
you have power or importance) of telling someone you hope they burn
in hellfire, or even the shortened version of "go to hell" or the
older "damn you" which is short for "May God damn you to hell."
So those are strong words. Those are curses.
"You're a son of a bitch" isn't a curse, it's just an insult. But
somewhere in the past few centuries in the U.S., at least, they were
generalized to "cussing" and condemned along with native Anglo-Saxon
non-medical terms involving anything sexual or scatological.
I think someone who doesn't say much more than "Shit" and "Dude"
might be displaying a lack of vocabulary, but someone who knows six
synonyms for "vagina" and fifteen for "penis" can't possibly be
accused of a small vocabulary.
The trick then is the awareness of appropriate times and places to
use those words, and when it's not courteous.
It has to do with courtesy, discretion, choices, mindfulness--all the
good stuff.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-My 6 yr old swears, first of all I do use strong language on
occasion because sometime it's appropriate. -=-
Ah! Swearing. That's another thing "we" don't do because the Bible
says not to. I think the U.S. has a puritanical take on language
that not all English-speaking places have.
The rule against swearing has to do with not getting God involved in
your oaths, or not taking ownership of the universe as though it's
yours to gamble away, as though you own it. Few people think of it
that way, as what principles are behind it. Maybe nobody does but
me, now that I think of it, but when I was little and sitting in
church (First Baptist, Espa�ola, New Mexico, Brother James Cathey,
Minister [most of those years]), I thought WHY would the Bible say
not to swear by any thing?
Matthew 5:34
But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is
God's throne;
Matthew 5:33-35 (in Context) Matthew 5 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 23:22
And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who
sits on it.
Matthew 23:21-23 (in Context) Matthew 23 (Whole Chapter)
James 5:12
Above all, my brothers, do not swear�not by heaven or by earth or by
anything else. Let your "Yes" be yes, and your "No," no, or you will
be condemned.
James 5:11-13 (in Context) James 5 (Whole Chapter)
So that's the New Testament. Genesis has all kinds of swearing oaths
before God. So stuff changes, even in the Bible. (Yeah don't say
THAT in a Baptist church.)
So cussing and swearing are two different things and neither one
involves the use of "the f word" nor any words for poop.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
occasion because sometime it's appropriate. -=-
Ah! Swearing. That's another thing "we" don't do because the Bible
says not to. I think the U.S. has a puritanical take on language
that not all English-speaking places have.
The rule against swearing has to do with not getting God involved in
your oaths, or not taking ownership of the universe as though it's
yours to gamble away, as though you own it. Few people think of it
that way, as what principles are behind it. Maybe nobody does but
me, now that I think of it, but when I was little and sitting in
church (First Baptist, Espa�ola, New Mexico, Brother James Cathey,
Minister [most of those years]), I thought WHY would the Bible say
not to swear by any thing?
Matthew 5:34
But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is
God's throne;
Matthew 5:33-35 (in Context) Matthew 5 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 23:22
And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who
sits on it.
Matthew 23:21-23 (in Context) Matthew 23 (Whole Chapter)
James 5:12
Above all, my brothers, do not swear�not by heaven or by earth or by
anything else. Let your "Yes" be yes, and your "No," no, or you will
be condemned.
James 5:11-13 (in Context) James 5 (Whole Chapter)
So that's the New Testament. Genesis has all kinds of swearing oaths
before God. So stuff changes, even in the Bible. (Yeah don't say
THAT in a Baptist church.)
So cussing and swearing are two different things and neither one
involves the use of "the f word" nor any words for poop.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
Huh. I've never heard the distinction between taking oaths (swearing) and
cussing (cursing). Good one.
Judgment is mighty close to cursing, as is praying (sometimes... "may my
enemies die as the dogs -- don't let the bad guys win" kind of prayer, we
know those, right?).
Swearing/ vowing can perhaps be seen as an extended more outright version of
cursing. Personally controlling the outcome of lots of things and taking on
the mantle of enormous responsibilities. When people get married,
traditionally that's an oath. Commending newborns to a godly upbringing.
Taking the office of doctor, lawyer or president. Being knighted? The use
of power often involves swearing. Kinda like cursing yourself... I swear
before present company to xyz so help me God (because if I screw up now...
I'm guilty not just to you present company but also to all of heaven). Just
to up the ante some more.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cussing (cursing). Good one.
Judgment is mighty close to cursing, as is praying (sometimes... "may my
enemies die as the dogs -- don't let the bad guys win" kind of prayer, we
know those, right?).
Swearing/ vowing can perhaps be seen as an extended more outright version of
cursing. Personally controlling the outcome of lots of things and taking on
the mantle of enormous responsibilities. When people get married,
traditionally that's an oath. Commending newborns to a godly upbringing.
Taking the office of doctor, lawyer or president. Being knighted? The use
of power often involves swearing. Kinda like cursing yourself... I swear
before present company to xyz so help me God (because if I screw up now...
I'm guilty not just to you present company but also to all of heaven). Just
to up the ante some more.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Swearing/ vowing can perhaps be seen as an extended more outright
version of
cursing. Personally controlling the outcome of lots of things and
taking on
the mantle of enormous responsibilities. When people get married,
traditionally that's an oath. Commending newborns to a godly upbringing.
Taking the office of doctor, lawyer or president. Being knighted? The
use
of power often involves swearing. Kinda like cursing yourself... I swear
before present company to xyz so help me God (because if I screw up
now...
I'm guilty not just to you present company but also to all of
heaven). Just
to up the ante some more.-=-
But a vow takes the curse onto the speaker, not onto the other guy.
"May Allah smite me" or "I swear by God and all things holy," it
means I'm so sure of what I'm claiming that I have no fear of God, or
that this is so important that if I fail to do it, I'm willing to go
to hell for it.
The use of power involves swearing, like an oath of office (lawyers
take oaths as officers of the court, at least where I live), and
those are so that other people can oust a guy who is forsworn (who
breaks his oath). It's the difference between dodging or fibbing or
lying (saying things that are somewhere between slightly and totally
false) and plagiarism (saying ANYthing false when under oath).
But if a guy is saying "I swear before God and all these witnesses
that..." and then he tells a lie, he's bringing God into his
bullshit, and so I think that's why the early Christians were against
it. It's a form of taking the lord's name in vain. It's misusing God.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
version of
cursing. Personally controlling the outcome of lots of things and
taking on
the mantle of enormous responsibilities. When people get married,
traditionally that's an oath. Commending newborns to a godly upbringing.
Taking the office of doctor, lawyer or president. Being knighted? The
use
of power often involves swearing. Kinda like cursing yourself... I swear
before present company to xyz so help me God (because if I screw up
now...
I'm guilty not just to you present company but also to all of
heaven). Just
to up the ante some more.-=-
But a vow takes the curse onto the speaker, not onto the other guy.
"May Allah smite me" or "I swear by God and all things holy," it
means I'm so sure of what I'm claiming that I have no fear of God, or
that this is so important that if I fail to do it, I'm willing to go
to hell for it.
The use of power involves swearing, like an oath of office (lawyers
take oaths as officers of the court, at least where I live), and
those are so that other people can oust a guy who is forsworn (who
breaks his oath). It's the difference between dodging or fibbing or
lying (saying things that are somewhere between slightly and totally
false) and plagiarism (saying ANYthing false when under oath).
But if a guy is saying "I swear before God and all these witnesses
that..." and then he tells a lie, he's bringing God into his
bullshit, and so I think that's why the early Christians were against
it. It's a form of taking the lord's name in vain. It's misusing God.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
prism7513
> I don't eat sugar and I would like my children not to eat sugar, orI've seen this line of reasoning before, and I'm not sure I completely
> at least not until they are older ...
see the logic of this argument. For example:
I don't smoke and I would like my children not to smoke...
I don't drink and drive, and I would like my children not to drink and
drive...
I don't play the choking game, and I would like my children not to
play the choking game...
I understand these aren't the same, but my point is that there ARE
some things I think fall under the category of "moral" and how we
choose to define it. And each family will have a different set of
values, regardless of what they are, which they will naturally pass
down to their children.
Maybe rude or vulgar or "colorful" language doesn't fall under this
category, but I still think the above example as an argument for the
silliness of my statement doesn't always hold up, is all.
THIS is the hardest part of whole-life unschooling for me - the line
between moral and "non-moral" (is there a word for this?) things. I
don't have a problem with my children choosing things that fall out of
the range of our moral values, but I DO want to pass on our moral
values to them. Whether they claim them as their own as adults is up
to them, but I believe they will pick up moral values from SOMEWHERE,
and it might as well be us. I know some things are culturally
oriented, as in nudity. Maybe in some "primitive" cultures a naked 10
year old wouldn't cause any heads to turn, but here in America it
would land me in jail. Some things aren't immoral, just rude (burping
or farting in public, raising the middle finger, and I think vulgarity
would fall in this category.)
Either way, this is the part I get confused about. I don't think it's
wrong to pass our morals on...
Deb
k
Moral decisions are not the same as decisions about risk behaviors.
The following are about the risk of death or injury. Risk is the reason for
any laws against them:
Smoking
Drinking/driving
Playing choking games
There's waaaayy less of a connection between risk and sugar, and saying
people could die or get sick (other than a tummy ache) from eating sugar is
going to sound extremely far fetched to our kids.
And anyway.... typically by the time our children are old enough to be
interested in the riskiest choices (in the tweens and teens), a whole lot of
childhood has gone by.
And each family will have a different set of
values, regardless of what they are, which they will naturally pass
down to their children.
There's no guarantee. Morals are not like heredity (which is also difficult
to predict). Moral living won't produce kids who won't ever smoke, drink,
eat sugar, play choking games, etc, etc, etc. We can't help but exhibit the
values we truly believe in (regardless of the values we may *espouse*
--mindful parenting means becoming conscious of the disparities between
those two sets of values). There are *no guarantees* our kids will believe
the same things we do since their experience will likely be different from
ours.
Mostly we'll have tons of opportunities to influence our kids by living the
life and the values we believe in.
Kids tend to emulate the values their parents live by (by dent of the fact
that it's what they know).
Even as much as I resisted my parent's consistent attempts to control my
choices ....
Even though I went as far in the opposite direction as I could (somewhat too
far in many cases) ....
I managed to believe many of the same things my parents believe.
I'
ve made many of the same decisions *and* I've made some very different
decisions.
My morals are not a carbon copy of my parent's.
There are no guarantees.
Thus enabling our children to make decisions as early as possible is a
strategy for having influence for the better part of their lives. The later
we wait to "let" our children decide things for themselves, moral or
otherwise, the more likely we *guarantee* that our influence won't have the
effect we could wish.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The following are about the risk of death or injury. Risk is the reason for
any laws against them:
Smoking
Drinking/driving
Playing choking games
There's waaaayy less of a connection between risk and sugar, and saying
people could die or get sick (other than a tummy ache) from eating sugar is
going to sound extremely far fetched to our kids.
And anyway.... typically by the time our children are old enough to be
interested in the riskiest choices (in the tweens and teens), a whole lot of
childhood has gone by.
And each family will have a different set of
values, regardless of what they are, which they will naturally pass
down to their children.
There's no guarantee. Morals are not like heredity (which is also difficult
to predict). Moral living won't produce kids who won't ever smoke, drink,
eat sugar, play choking games, etc, etc, etc. We can't help but exhibit the
values we truly believe in (regardless of the values we may *espouse*
--mindful parenting means becoming conscious of the disparities between
those two sets of values). There are *no guarantees* our kids will believe
the same things we do since their experience will likely be different from
ours.
Mostly we'll have tons of opportunities to influence our kids by living the
life and the values we believe in.
Kids tend to emulate the values their parents live by (by dent of the fact
that it's what they know).
Even as much as I resisted my parent's consistent attempts to control my
choices ....
Even though I went as far in the opposite direction as I could (somewhat too
far in many cases) ....
I managed to believe many of the same things my parents believe.
I'
ve made many of the same decisions *and* I've made some very different
decisions.
My morals are not a carbon copy of my parent's.
There are no guarantees.
Thus enabling our children to make decisions as early as possible is a
strategy for having influence for the better part of their lives. The later
we wait to "let" our children decide things for themselves, moral or
otherwise, the more likely we *guarantee* that our influence won't have the
effect we could wish.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 24, 2008, at 11:44 PM, prism7513 wrote:
or killing someone or ...?
It's part of the same fabric, really, as not wanting them to eat sugar.
Probably the best way to up the chances of them doing something is to
forbid it! But that doesn't mean, then, let them do it. What it means
is turning your thinking to a totally different way of being with
others.
Live your values because that's what's important to you. Make those
values accessible and easy for your kids to explore. Trust that
they're thinking creatures and can learn by living and thinking and
sometimes trying things out. Be there to pass on information. But
leave the decision up to them.
Someone was asked how she got her kids to like broccoli. She answered
by not doing anything to make her kids dislike broccoli.
fair to kids not to let them know that they or their parents could
get in trouble if they do something that's illegal. Their actions
could have an impact on the whole family.
But that isn't the same as "I won't let you." It's information to
help the child decide. And it's *much* easier when they're younger
and they're faced with a decision about riding with or without a
helmet rather than drinking and driving.
Conventional families will picture kids, especially teens, who would
shrug when told the consequences because the kids don't care. And
that's a huge clue that something's wrong! It's not natural for kids
to not care about hurting their family. The reason that
conventionally parented kids can come to not care is because, from
their point of view, the parents don't care. From day one the parents
have been saying essentially, "I won't like you unless you do what I
think is best." They don't mean to say that! But by deciding what the
child may and may not choose, they *are* saying that.
If kids feelings are treated as though they matter, then they treat
our feelings as though they matter (as they're able). Unschoolers
probably have the least incidence of teen rebellion. ;-) When kids
know their parents are on their side to help them figure out life,
there isn't a reason to rebel.
I know this probably seems like a total side issue, but just about
everything about unschooling comes back to treating kids with
respect, as though they're intelligent beings who can figure this out
with us by their sides as a resource rather than a control gate.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I understand these aren't the same, but my point is that there AREHow will you stop your children from smoking or drinking and driving
> some things I think fall under the category of "moral" and how we
> choose to define it.
or killing someone or ...?
It's part of the same fabric, really, as not wanting them to eat sugar.
Probably the best way to up the chances of them doing something is to
forbid it! But that doesn't mean, then, let them do it. What it means
is turning your thinking to a totally different way of being with
others.
Live your values because that's what's important to you. Make those
values accessible and easy for your kids to explore. Trust that
they're thinking creatures and can learn by living and thinking and
sometimes trying things out. Be there to pass on information. But
leave the decision up to them.
Someone was asked how she got her kids to like broccoli. She answered
by not doing anything to make her kids dislike broccoli.
> Maybe in some "primitive" cultures a naked 10But that's not a moral issue. It's a legal issue. And it wouldn't be
> year old wouldn't cause any heads to turn, but here in America it
> would land me in jail.
>
fair to kids not to let them know that they or their parents could
get in trouble if they do something that's illegal. Their actions
could have an impact on the whole family.
But that isn't the same as "I won't let you." It's information to
help the child decide. And it's *much* easier when they're younger
and they're faced with a decision about riding with or without a
helmet rather than drinking and driving.
Conventional families will picture kids, especially teens, who would
shrug when told the consequences because the kids don't care. And
that's a huge clue that something's wrong! It's not natural for kids
to not care about hurting their family. The reason that
conventionally parented kids can come to not care is because, from
their point of view, the parents don't care. From day one the parents
have been saying essentially, "I won't like you unless you do what I
think is best." They don't mean to say that! But by deciding what the
child may and may not choose, they *are* saying that.
If kids feelings are treated as though they matter, then they treat
our feelings as though they matter (as they're able). Unschoolers
probably have the least incidence of teen rebellion. ;-) When kids
know their parents are on their side to help them figure out life,
there isn't a reason to rebel.
I know this probably seems like a total side issue, but just about
everything about unschooling comes back to treating kids with
respect, as though they're intelligent beings who can figure this out
with us by their sides as a resource rather than a control gate.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Sep 25, 2008, at 6:59 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
information based on actual experience and wider knowledge, but, in
this culture, it seems expected and accepted that teens and young
adults will not "listen to" their elders. Why would they behave so
stupidly? (Using the word with meaning, here.)
I heard someone in their early 20's say, the other day, "No, I didn't
ask my mom what she thought because she'd just try to stop me. I just
tell her what I'm doing, I don't ask what she thinks I should do. Ever."
I try really hard to only offer information or ideas that I genuinely
think the kids might not have considered. I have tried their whole
lives NOT to tell them things they already knew because that seemed to
me to be a great way to get them to stop paying attention to what I
said.
It IS natural for young people to assess risks differently than older
people - that's a biological fact of brain development.
If you live an analytical life in which you examine the reasons for
and the consequences of decisions (your own, acquaintances, friends
and family, people on tv or in books or movies), then the kids will
develop their analytical abilities and they'll apply them, to some
degree, when the decisions are major ones.
One example I've seen has been my kids carefully considering who to
get in a car with, as their friends have started driving. They pretty
much decided absolutely NO getting on the freeway with any newish
drivers - not in the first year or so of them starting to drive. And
they only ride with newly licensed drivers for short distances and not
ever with a big group of kids, only if it is just driver and one
passenger. These are decisions my kids made, each in their own time,
and I never ever once controlled who they rode with. Rosie, especially
has a lot of older friends and so they were all getting their driving
licenses when she was still 14, 15, 16 - she's now 17. She was
absolutely up front with them - "No, sorry, I don't ride with new
drivers until they've had a lot of experience." Blunt. Clear.
Confident in her own choice.
-pam
> Conventional families will picture kids, especially teens, who wouldAnd, it isn't natural for young people to completely ignore or resist
> shrug when told the consequences because the kids don't care. And
> that's a huge clue that something's wrong! It's not natural for kids
> to not care about hurting their family.
information based on actual experience and wider knowledge, but, in
this culture, it seems expected and accepted that teens and young
adults will not "listen to" their elders. Why would they behave so
stupidly? (Using the word with meaning, here.)
I heard someone in their early 20's say, the other day, "No, I didn't
ask my mom what she thought because she'd just try to stop me. I just
tell her what I'm doing, I don't ask what she thinks I should do. Ever."
I try really hard to only offer information or ideas that I genuinely
think the kids might not have considered. I have tried their whole
lives NOT to tell them things they already knew because that seemed to
me to be a great way to get them to stop paying attention to what I
said.
It IS natural for young people to assess risks differently than older
people - that's a biological fact of brain development.
If you live an analytical life in which you examine the reasons for
and the consequences of decisions (your own, acquaintances, friends
and family, people on tv or in books or movies), then the kids will
develop their analytical abilities and they'll apply them, to some
degree, when the decisions are major ones.
One example I've seen has been my kids carefully considering who to
get in a car with, as their friends have started driving. They pretty
much decided absolutely NO getting on the freeway with any newish
drivers - not in the first year or so of them starting to drive. And
they only ride with newly licensed drivers for short distances and not
ever with a big group of kids, only if it is just driver and one
passenger. These are decisions my kids made, each in their own time,
and I never ever once controlled who they rode with. Rosie, especially
has a lot of older friends and so they were all getting their driving
licenses when she was still 14, 15, 16 - she's now 17. She was
absolutely up front with them - "No, sorry, I don't ride with new
drivers until they've had a lot of experience." Blunt. Clear.
Confident in her own choice.
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=-Someone was asked how she got her kids to like broccoli. She answered
by not doing anything to make her kids dislike broccoli.-=-
Doesn't that sound like some kind of zen Buddhist thing?
But that's the deal. If you treat broccoli as a bad thing or a good
thing, you take away your child's opportunity to make a clear, good
choice.
If she sees you eat it without making a big deal about it, she might
want to eat it.
If she sees you eat it and you're making a show about 'ooh how good"
it is and "yum, yum" and that, she could think you're being
manipulative. If she does, good. She's smart.
And parents should know and remember that some foods, like brocolli,
have a bitterness that little kids don't like as well as they might
when their tastes change.
Sometimes people say "Children's tastebuds are immature," implying
adults are the good and right stage of human life, but children
aren't quite real yet. Maybe children are the right way, and adults
are living more by rules and charts than their own instincts. But
it's clearly true that there are things children like a lot that
adults don't love as much. It's very likely that there are instincts
at play, and that children's nutritional needs are different than
adults.
I could go on and on about that.
But this is at the core of living well with children:
-=-Someone was asked how she got her kids to like broccoli. She answered
by not doing anything to make her kids dislike broccoli.-=-
(Joyce, do you know who said it?)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
by not doing anything to make her kids dislike broccoli.-=-
Doesn't that sound like some kind of zen Buddhist thing?
But that's the deal. If you treat broccoli as a bad thing or a good
thing, you take away your child's opportunity to make a clear, good
choice.
If she sees you eat it without making a big deal about it, she might
want to eat it.
If she sees you eat it and you're making a show about 'ooh how good"
it is and "yum, yum" and that, she could think you're being
manipulative. If she does, good. She's smart.
And parents should know and remember that some foods, like brocolli,
have a bitterness that little kids don't like as well as they might
when their tastes change.
Sometimes people say "Children's tastebuds are immature," implying
adults are the good and right stage of human life, but children
aren't quite real yet. Maybe children are the right way, and adults
are living more by rules and charts than their own instincts. But
it's clearly true that there are things children like a lot that
adults don't love as much. It's very likely that there are instincts
at play, and that children's nutritional needs are different than
adults.
I could go on and on about that.
But this is at the core of living well with children:
-=-Someone was asked how she got her kids to like broccoli. She answered
by not doing anything to make her kids dislike broccoli.-=-
(Joyce, do you know who said it?)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I don't smoke and I would like my children not to smoke...
I don't drink and drive, and I would like my children not to drink and
drive...
I don't play the choking game, and I would like my children not to
play the choking game...-=-
ARE there adults around you playing the choking game? If it's a kids-
at-school thing, and your kids aren't at school, how likely is it?
We used to hold people tightly from the back so they would pass out,
at school. Maybe it's similar. They were all volunteers; they did
it to me once. We got yelled at by the band teacher. They had LOTS
of rules about things we could NOT do, but didn't provide cool ideas
about what we could do. Either we did what the teachers said to do
exactly, or we got creative and did something on our own, or we
purposely did NOT do what they said to do, but in all that mess of
rules, children's rights and individuality get distorted.
So.
Back to unschooling.
Would children be more or less likely to smoke if a parent smokes?
I'm not talking statistics, but children and parents. My parents
smoked and I experienced them telling me "no" when I wanted a record
player or new shoes or to go to some camp or event, because we
couldn't afford it. I knew cigarettes cost a lot of money and they
were being unfair. So I didn't want to smoke because it was stinky
and expensive and seemed to cause parents to hold out on kids and to
be selfish.
Would children be more or less likely to smoke if a parent doesn't
smoke?
I'm thinking it could depend on how they feel about that parent's
integrity and whether they want to be more like the parent, or less
like the parent.
My kids drink sometimes, but they have always had clear permission
and encouragement to stay where they are for the night, or to leave
our car there and get a ride from someone very sober and we'll get
the car the next day.
Drinking and driving often comes from rules about being home by a
certain time "or else." Else was supposed to be the kid got in
trouble, but very many times it has ended up being the kid didn't get
home at all, or someone else didn't ever get home at all, or the kid
got home later after a hospital stay and never needed to borrow the
car again.
If my husband went out drinking, I would rather he would stay where
he was than get home to pretend he hadn't been drinking. If I care
more about safety and honesty than about getting my way, and if he
has no reason to lie or be sneaky, that's better for him and me, and
so for us, and so for our children.
Last Saturday Keith and Marty both drank, but they were camping and
they drank and then walked over and went to sleep. Marty WANTED to
be where his dad was. Had Keith said "NO DRINKING," Marty wouldn't
have wanted to hang around and watch his dad drink, and he might have
wanted to go where others were letting him.
Usually Keith doesn't drink, so that's easy.
Marty had wanted to go to this weekend campout, but work wouldn't
give him the weekend off. So he drove 50 miles there and 50 miles
back, went to work, drove back out there (paying for his own
gas)... To go where his dad was.
If your priorities are love and thought and finding ways to make
things work, you won't have to have a bunch of rules nor to sort out
the moral things from the immoral things.
Relationships are what makes breaks situations. Parents need to see
to their own morality. Compassion and honesty and generosity will
help your kids more than telling them what to do and what not to do.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don't drink and drive, and I would like my children not to drink and
drive...
I don't play the choking game, and I would like my children not to
play the choking game...-=-
ARE there adults around you playing the choking game? If it's a kids-
at-school thing, and your kids aren't at school, how likely is it?
We used to hold people tightly from the back so they would pass out,
at school. Maybe it's similar. They were all volunteers; they did
it to me once. We got yelled at by the band teacher. They had LOTS
of rules about things we could NOT do, but didn't provide cool ideas
about what we could do. Either we did what the teachers said to do
exactly, or we got creative and did something on our own, or we
purposely did NOT do what they said to do, but in all that mess of
rules, children's rights and individuality get distorted.
So.
Back to unschooling.
Would children be more or less likely to smoke if a parent smokes?
I'm not talking statistics, but children and parents. My parents
smoked and I experienced them telling me "no" when I wanted a record
player or new shoes or to go to some camp or event, because we
couldn't afford it. I knew cigarettes cost a lot of money and they
were being unfair. So I didn't want to smoke because it was stinky
and expensive and seemed to cause parents to hold out on kids and to
be selfish.
Would children be more or less likely to smoke if a parent doesn't
smoke?
I'm thinking it could depend on how they feel about that parent's
integrity and whether they want to be more like the parent, or less
like the parent.
My kids drink sometimes, but they have always had clear permission
and encouragement to stay where they are for the night, or to leave
our car there and get a ride from someone very sober and we'll get
the car the next day.
Drinking and driving often comes from rules about being home by a
certain time "or else." Else was supposed to be the kid got in
trouble, but very many times it has ended up being the kid didn't get
home at all, or someone else didn't ever get home at all, or the kid
got home later after a hospital stay and never needed to borrow the
car again.
If my husband went out drinking, I would rather he would stay where
he was than get home to pretend he hadn't been drinking. If I care
more about safety and honesty than about getting my way, and if he
has no reason to lie or be sneaky, that's better for him and me, and
so for us, and so for our children.
Last Saturday Keith and Marty both drank, but they were camping and
they drank and then walked over and went to sleep. Marty WANTED to
be where his dad was. Had Keith said "NO DRINKING," Marty wouldn't
have wanted to hang around and watch his dad drink, and he might have
wanted to go where others were letting him.
Usually Keith doesn't drink, so that's easy.
Marty had wanted to go to this weekend campout, but work wouldn't
give him the weekend off. So he drove 50 miles there and 50 miles
back, went to work, drove back out there (paying for his own
gas)... To go where his dad was.
If your priorities are love and thought and finding ways to make
things work, you won't have to have a bunch of rules nor to sort out
the moral things from the immoral things.
Relationships are what makes breaks situations. Parents need to see
to their own morality. Compassion and honesty and generosity will
help your kids more than telling them what to do and what not to do.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
>later
> Thus enabling our children to make decisions as early as possible is a
> strategy for having influence for the better part of their lives. The
> we wait to "let" our children decide things for themselves, moral orhave the
> otherwise, the more likely we *guarantee* that our influence won't
> effect we could wish.Chamille's friend is finally un-grounded from her and available. At
>
first we were really excited about that, but all the punishment and
banning and crazy control has had a way bigger effect on her than we
realized. Many years of smaller control and manipulation and one year
of really harsh control and manipulation.
Suddenly she's free and she doesn't know how to behave herself. She's
clearly rebelling hardcore to all that stuff and it shows in her
choices.
There are some not so nice teen boys that live in our neighborhood and
when they were walking past, some words were said and the friend went a
little overboard. When Chamille told me about it later I asked her why
she would behave that way and say those things. She said that she
didn't and she couldn't get her friend to stop and it actually bothered
her. Wether or not she liked the boys was irrelevant, it was more the
fact that running around the neighborhood behaving poorly bothered her.
We do have other neighbors that she would like to continue having a good
relationship with and running around loudly cussing isn't going to do
anything to help that.
Chamille can see the difference, she can make good judgement calls. For
a kid who's never been allowed to make any kind of judgement for
herself, she's not going to be discriminate in her decisions to rebel.
For her, it's all fair game. The reality for Chamille, is that it's not
all fair game. Getting kicked out of the mall for make-up is one thing,
getting kicked out of the mall because you are behaving badly, is quite
another!
When a kid is never allowed to make mistakes or bad choices without
harsh consequences, when they are older, they will rebel and make bad
choices that are bigger and more dangerous. I don't see Chamille doing
this. Sure she dresses pretty intense, but she's sweet and kind and
doesn't have a big f*** you sign on her attitude, like a lot of teens
do.
Sandra Dodd
-=-And each family will have a different set of
values, regardless of what they are, which they will naturally pass
down to their children.-=-
Do you mean pass down in natural ways?
Or do you mean which, of course/naturally, they will pass down to
their children in the form of words?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
values, regardless of what they are, which they will naturally pass
down to their children.-=-
Do you mean pass down in natural ways?
Or do you mean which, of course/naturally, they will pass down to
their children in the form of words?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Mostly we'll have tons of opportunities to influence our kids by
living the
life and the values we believe in.
Kids tend to emulate the values their parents live by (by dent of the
fact
that it's what they know).-=-
In the first statement I'm pretty sure you're talking about unschoolers.
In the second one, I don't think so. Or maybe if you are, it's an
argument against unschooling.
I don't want our family's values to be the only thing my children
know. (and now that they're on the edge of grown, I think they've
been around enough families that they see a fair range, though they
haven't seen a lot of abusive behavior as far as I know, and I had
when I was their age).
I also don't want them to live in opposition or reaction to the way
they were raised. I have a friend whose parents were hippies. She
treats her children in conservative ways. She wants to live in
conservative ways (things all from the store, matching, new--nothing
funky or old or used). There's not much personal history in her
home. I know other children of the Santa Fe hippie crowd, and many
of them are neither conform to hippiedom nor reject it. They just
live their own lives in thoughtful and balanced ways.
I think this is absolutely valuable and true:
-=-Thus enabling our children to make decisions as early as possible
is a
strategy for having influence for the better part of their lives. The
later
we wait to "let" our children decide things for themselves, moral or
otherwise, the more likely we *guarantee* that our influence won't
have the
effect we could wish.-=-
I hardly ever press my kids to do something immediately, so when I
do, they do it without question. Many parents whose goal is to have
"obedience" work hard to try to get kids who will "obey" without
question. With my kids, it's not obedience at all. It's trust.
If I abused that trust by using "right now" in situations that didn't
need it, pretty soon they'd be ignoring me or avoiding me or rolling
their eyes behind my back as so many other people's kids do.
And when my kids tell me they need me to do something right now, I
jump. If Marty or Holly say "Mom, come here!" I do it. Maybe
they're bleeding. Maybe they want to show me something on TV that's
not being recorded. Maybe there's a beautiful bug that hasn't flown
away yet.
I trust them.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
living the
life and the values we believe in.
Kids tend to emulate the values their parents live by (by dent of the
fact
that it's what they know).-=-
In the first statement I'm pretty sure you're talking about unschoolers.
In the second one, I don't think so. Or maybe if you are, it's an
argument against unschooling.
I don't want our family's values to be the only thing my children
know. (and now that they're on the edge of grown, I think they've
been around enough families that they see a fair range, though they
haven't seen a lot of abusive behavior as far as I know, and I had
when I was their age).
I also don't want them to live in opposition or reaction to the way
they were raised. I have a friend whose parents were hippies. She
treats her children in conservative ways. She wants to live in
conservative ways (things all from the store, matching, new--nothing
funky or old or used). There's not much personal history in her
home. I know other children of the Santa Fe hippie crowd, and many
of them are neither conform to hippiedom nor reject it. They just
live their own lives in thoughtful and balanced ways.
I think this is absolutely valuable and true:
-=-Thus enabling our children to make decisions as early as possible
is a
strategy for having influence for the better part of their lives. The
later
we wait to "let" our children decide things for themselves, moral or
otherwise, the more likely we *guarantee* that our influence won't
have the
effect we could wish.-=-
I hardly ever press my kids to do something immediately, so when I
do, they do it without question. Many parents whose goal is to have
"obedience" work hard to try to get kids who will "obey" without
question. With my kids, it's not obedience at all. It's trust.
If I abused that trust by using "right now" in situations that didn't
need it, pretty soon they'd be ignoring me or avoiding me or rolling
their eyes behind my back as so many other people's kids do.
And when my kids tell me they need me to do something right now, I
jump. If Marty or Holly say "Mom, come here!" I do it. Maybe
they're bleeding. Maybe they want to show me something on TV that's
not being recorded. Maybe there's a beautiful bug that hasn't flown
away yet.
I trust them.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
I could also add that the way to "get" your kids to have a balanced moderate
approach to sugar intake is by not doing anything to make your kids value it
unduly.
~Katherine
approach to sugar intake is by not doing anything to make your kids value it
unduly.
~Katherine
On 9/25/08, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-Someone was asked how she got her kids to like broccoli. She answered
> by not doing anything to make her kids dislike broccoli.-=-
>
> Doesn't that sound like some kind of zen Buddhist thing?
>
> But that's the deal. If you treat broccoli as a bad thing or a good
> thing, you take away your child's opportunity to make a clear, good
> choice.
>
> If she sees you eat it without making a big deal about it, she might
> want to eat it.
>
> If she sees you eat it and you're making a show about 'ooh how good"
> it is and "yum, yum" and that, she could think you're being
> manipulative. If she does, good. She's smart.
>
> And parents should know and remember that some foods, like brocolli,
> have a bitterness that little kids don't like as well as they might
> when their tastes change.
>
> Sometimes people say "Children's tastebuds are immature," implying
> adults are the good and right stage of human life, but children
> aren't quite real yet. Maybe children are the right way, and adults
> are living more by rules and charts than their own instincts. But
> it's clearly true that there are things children like a lot that
> adults don't love as much. It's very likely that there are instincts
> at play, and that children's nutritional needs are different than
> adults.
>
> I could go on and on about that.
>
> But this is at the core of living well with children:
>
> -=-Someone was asked how she got her kids to like broccoli. She answered
> by not doing anything to make her kids dislike broccoli.-=-
>
> (Joyce, do you know who said it?)
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
===Kids tend to emulate the values their parents live by (by dent of the
fact that it's what they know).-=-
I don't think so. Or maybe if you are, it's an
argument against unschooling.
I did switch tracks. Mainly because I don't yet have hindsight or
experience with how unschooling works in the long run. And I can't really
say what I don't know. (The problem with someone inexperienced giving
uninformed opinions that can sound like advice.)
You're right I was speaking of my own experience.
But I *do* think that if an unschooler isn't experienced and isn't making
much in the way of strides toward wholelife radical unschooling in how they
live that the above can be very much the case.
And that's not an argument against unschooling so much as an argument for
unschoolers to get more skills as fast as they can develop them!
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fact that it's what they know).-=-
I don't think so. Or maybe if you are, it's an
argument against unschooling.
I did switch tracks. Mainly because I don't yet have hindsight or
experience with how unschooling works in the long run. And I can't really
say what I don't know. (The problem with someone inexperienced giving
uninformed opinions that can sound like advice.)
You're right I was speaking of my own experience.
But I *do* think that if an unschooler isn't experienced and isn't making
much in the way of strides toward wholelife radical unschooling in how they
live that the above can be very much the case.
And that's not an argument against unschooling so much as an argument for
unschoolers to get more skills as fast as they can develop them!
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
With my kids, it's not obedience at all. It's trust.
If I abused that trust by using "right now" in situations that didn't
need it, pretty soon they'd be ignoring me or avoiding me or rolling
their eyes behind my back as so many other people's kids do.
And when my kids tell me they need me to do something right now, I
jump. If Marty or Holly say "Mom, come here!" I do it. Maybe
they're bleeding. Maybe they want to show me something on TV that's
not being recorded. Maybe there's a beautiful bug that hasn't flown
away yet.
For me, the above is so wonderfully profound. In a relationship sense and
in a religious sense. Trust is about relationship and a lot of religious
don't major on relationship but obedience. So this brings new meaning to
faith, parenting and relationship to the phrase "trust and obey." Listening
because the relationship is such that you can trust one another to hear
what's being said and respond!
I'm not there where I want to be on that. The fact that obedience was so
prominent an extolled virtue in the home I grew up in and the fact that the
going maxim was always that children should be seen and not heard means that
I have years of crusty built up distrust towards any and everybody! Even
Karl. :(
So that's a good handle on the idea for me... how to get friendly with the
"trust and obey" phrase in ways that matter to me now that long practice of
using it a certain unuseful way has ruined the idea.
This could help me in thinking about my relationship with Brian too. :) So
it's good in all ways to focus on relationship and making trust flourish.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If I abused that trust by using "right now" in situations that didn't
need it, pretty soon they'd be ignoring me or avoiding me or rolling
their eyes behind my back as so many other people's kids do.
And when my kids tell me they need me to do something right now, I
jump. If Marty or Holly say "Mom, come here!" I do it. Maybe
they're bleeding. Maybe they want to show me something on TV that's
not being recorded. Maybe there's a beautiful bug that hasn't flown
away yet.
For me, the above is so wonderfully profound. In a relationship sense and
in a religious sense. Trust is about relationship and a lot of religious
don't major on relationship but obedience. So this brings new meaning to
faith, parenting and relationship to the phrase "trust and obey." Listening
because the relationship is such that you can trust one another to hear
what's being said and respond!
I'm not there where I want to be on that. The fact that obedience was so
prominent an extolled virtue in the home I grew up in and the fact that the
going maxim was always that children should be seen and not heard means that
I have years of crusty built up distrust towards any and everybody! Even
Karl. :(
So that's a good handle on the idea for me... how to get friendly with the
"trust and obey" phrase in ways that matter to me now that long practice of
using it a certain unuseful way has ruined the idea.
This could help me in thinking about my relationship with Brian too. :) So
it's good in all ways to focus on relationship and making trust flourish.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
prism7513
, which they will naturally pass
on my children or anyone, for that matter. But I would like them to
know WHY I believe what I believe, and let that be the biggest moral
influence in their lives, so when they DO decide for themselves, what
they have had as an example for the past 20 years is a HUGE factor in
their decision (which can be good or bad, if the parents make the
child feel angry or hurt or distant, they most likely WILL change
SOMETHING about the path they take, vs. taking the same one their
parents traveled.)
Just as largely I still believe many of the things my parents do, but
am making my own choices as well, some of which differ sharp contrast
to their choices. But overall, we hold the same values.
I do wholeheartedly agree that actions speak louder than words, and I
really am appreciating all the advice on HOW to actually act out my
beliefs vs. push them onto my kids verbally. Thank you again - all of you.
Deb
> down to their children.-=-Words, and, more importantly, actions. I know I can't FORCE my beliefs
>
>
> Do you mean pass down in natural ways?
>
> Or do you mean which, of course/naturally, they will pass down to
> their children in the form of words?
>
on my children or anyone, for that matter. But I would like them to
know WHY I believe what I believe, and let that be the biggest moral
influence in their lives, so when they DO decide for themselves, what
they have had as an example for the past 20 years is a HUGE factor in
their decision (which can be good or bad, if the parents make the
child feel angry or hurt or distant, they most likely WILL change
SOMETHING about the path they take, vs. taking the same one their
parents traveled.)
Just as largely I still believe many of the things my parents do, but
am making my own choices as well, some of which differ sharp contrast
to their choices. But overall, we hold the same values.
I do wholeheartedly agree that actions speak louder than words, and I
really am appreciating all the advice on HOW to actually act out my
beliefs vs. push them onto my kids verbally. Thank you again - all of you.
Deb
prism7513
>These are things I'm working on right now. I know all too often I
> I hardly ever press my kids to do something immediately, so when I
> do, they do it without question. Many parents whose goal is to have
> "obedience" work hard to try to get kids who will "obey" without
> question. With my kids, it's not obedience at all. It's trust.
> If I abused that trust by using "right now" in situations that didn't
> need it, pretty soon they'd be ignoring me or avoiding me or rolling
> their eyes behind my back as so many other people's kids do.
>
> And when my kids tell me they need me to do something right now, I
> jump. If Marty or Holly say "Mom, come here!" I do it. Maybe
> they're bleeding. Maybe they want to show me something on TV that's
> not being recorded. Maybe there's a beautiful bug that hasn't flown
> away yet.
>
> I trust them.
>
don't listen with my body when my kids are talking to me. And all too
often I ask them to do something for ME right now...
I DID have a mini baby step success today, though. At the store, Caleb
(4) started pointing to things and saying "I want that." Now before, I
never had an issue with either of my two older ones wanting items from
the store. Either they didn't know they COULD have them, or just
didn't care enough to ask. Either way, as I would pass the item and
say, "Maybe later" or "You just got a lot of toys for your birthday"
he would only get louder and insist in a demanding voice, "But I
WAAANT IIIIT!"
So after he melts down because I stop the cart and take him out
because he won't stop (I know! I KNOW! Believe, I know...) I try to
think what I SHOULD be doing instead. I know he likes all the toys he
sees. I think the same thing, to be honest. I'd love a TON of stuff I
see. And so I tell him that. And I explain that I just don't have
money to buy everything in the store. Then I suggest to both of them
that maybe instead of shouting out "I want that" they could point to
the things they want or like and say "I wish I could have that" and
that way I'd know what they want, and I wouldn't be required to answer
in a negative way (I wanted to answer Caleb in the positive when he
started out, but what can I say when the answer MUST be no because I
don't have the money and he did just have a birthday and I actually
WAS getting them something in that same store that he had just
requested earlier that day....)
Anyway, it worked great. They pointed to everything in every isle, but
weren't demanding, and I answered back "I wish you could have it too.
Maybe for Christmas or another time."
It was something, anyway.
Deb
k
One of the greatest things Karl and I have had fun doing is playing with the
toys at the store, with or without the intention of trying it out to buy.
In any case, Karl likes to try things out while at the store. He spends
time in the store. I'm in the same isle looking things over while he pulls
this and that from the shelf or asks me to hand something to him from the
top shelves.
It's great because I get the opportunity to see what he's really interested
in about them, to notice trends, to talk about what he thinks about them,
about the quality or lack thereof in the toy materials, what the toy does
and if it's a complete enough set in our opinion, and on and on.
We get so much from going to the store and any toy area usually gets a lot
of our attention when we go there.
Whether we end up buying anything or not.
~Katherine
toys at the store, with or without the intention of trying it out to buy.
In any case, Karl likes to try things out while at the store. He spends
time in the store. I'm in the same isle looking things over while he pulls
this and that from the shelf or asks me to hand something to him from the
top shelves.
It's great because I get the opportunity to see what he's really interested
in about them, to notice trends, to talk about what he thinks about them,
about the quality or lack thereof in the toy materials, what the toy does
and if it's a complete enough set in our opinion, and on and on.
We get so much from going to the store and any toy area usually gets a lot
of our attention when we go there.
Whether we end up buying anything or not.
~Katherine
On 9/25/08, prism7513 <penley75@...> wrote:
>
>
> >
> > I hardly ever press my kids to do something immediately, so when I
> > do, they do it without question. Many parents whose goal is to have
> > "obedience" work hard to try to get kids who will "obey" without
> > question. With my kids, it's not obedience at all. It's trust.
> > If I abused that trust by using "right now" in situations that didn't
> > need it, pretty soon they'd be ignoring me or avoiding me or rolling
> > their eyes behind my back as so many other people's kids do.
> >
> > And when my kids tell me they need me to do something right now, I
> > jump. If Marty or Holly say "Mom, come here!" I do it. Maybe
> > they're bleeding. Maybe they want to show me something on TV that's
> > not being recorded. Maybe there's a beautiful bug that hasn't flown
> > away yet.
> >
> > I trust them.
> >
>
> These are things I'm working on right now. I know all too often I
> don't listen with my body when my kids are talking to me. And all too
> often I ask them to do something for ME right now...
>
> I DID have a mini baby step success today, though. At the store, Caleb
> (4) started pointing to things and saying "I want that." Now before, I
> never had an issue with either of my two older ones wanting items from
> the store. Either they didn't know they COULD have them, or just
> didn't care enough to ask. Either way, as I would pass the item and
> say, "Maybe later" or "You just got a lot of toys for your birthday"
> he would only get louder and insist in a demanding voice, "But I
> WAAANT IIIIT!"
>
> So after he melts down because I stop the cart and take him out
> because he won't stop (I know! I KNOW! Believe, I know...) I try to
> think what I SHOULD be doing instead. I know he likes all the toys he
> sees. I think the same thing, to be honest. I'd love a TON of stuff I
> see. And so I tell him that. And I explain that I just don't have
> money to buy everything in the store. Then I suggest to both of them
> that maybe instead of shouting out "I want that" they could point to
> the things they want or like and say "I wish I could have that" and
> that way I'd know what they want, and I wouldn't be required to answer
> in a negative way (I wanted to answer Caleb in the positive when he
> started out, but what can I say when the answer MUST be no because I
> don't have the money and he did just have a birthday and I actually
> WAS getting them something in that same store that he had just
> requested earlier that day....)
>
> Anyway, it worked great. They pointed to everything in every isle, but
> weren't demanding, and I answered back "I wish you could have it too.
> Maybe for Christmas or another time."
>
> It was something, anyway.
>
> Deb
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<<< And I explain that I just don't have
times when we can make purchases (which for us means a larger paycheck, or I
have sold a lot of dolls) come up I get out the list and we revisit the
items. Of course most are no longer wanted, at least not with the same
urgency. Jayn has also made a wish book with pictures cut from catalogs
pasted down. That act in itself has often been enough to allow the desire to
wane naturally - or solidify so we have devised a saving strategy.
About the different words....Somehow, I don't think it's a good idea to
negate Jayn's desire just to make myself feel better or make it easier for
me. It seems like it takes a real and strong emotion, that could be a good
feeling, an empowering feeling, and forces the child to get all wistful
instead. It sounds a little inauthentic to direct *their* speech into
euphemism. I'd be cautious about seeing that as an ongoing useful strategy.
I have found it better to change how *I* phrase my response away from "no"
into "wow that is a cool toy. What do you like about it?" types of
conversation, as well as the "I wish.." words as well.. The verbal choices
aren't between "Oh yes, let's buy it now" and "No you can't have it".
Philosophically, it's up to me to accept and be the vessel for Jayn's strong
emotions, even when they are uncomfortable or inconvenient for me. It's
embarrassing when a child is melting down in public, but those are the times
when it helps just to shut out the world and focus intently on Jayn.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
> money to buy everything in the store. Then I suggest to both of themI carry a note book and write down the item in it. Then when those special
> that maybe instead of shouting out "I want that" they could point to
> the things they want or like and say "I wish I could have that" and
> that way I'd know what they want, and I wouldn't be required to answer
> in a negative way (I wanted to answer Caleb in the positive when he
> started out, but what can I say when the answer MUST be no because I
> don't have the money and he did just have a birthday and I actually
> WAS getting them something in that same store that he had just
> requested earlier that day....)>>>>
times when we can make purchases (which for us means a larger paycheck, or I
have sold a lot of dolls) come up I get out the list and we revisit the
items. Of course most are no longer wanted, at least not with the same
urgency. Jayn has also made a wish book with pictures cut from catalogs
pasted down. That act in itself has often been enough to allow the desire to
wane naturally - or solidify so we have devised a saving strategy.
About the different words....Somehow, I don't think it's a good idea to
negate Jayn's desire just to make myself feel better or make it easier for
me. It seems like it takes a real and strong emotion, that could be a good
feeling, an empowering feeling, and forces the child to get all wistful
instead. It sounds a little inauthentic to direct *their* speech into
euphemism. I'd be cautious about seeing that as an ongoing useful strategy.
I have found it better to change how *I* phrase my response away from "no"
into "wow that is a cool toy. What do you like about it?" types of
conversation, as well as the "I wish.." words as well.. The verbal choices
aren't between "Oh yes, let's buy it now" and "No you can't have it".
Philosophically, it's up to me to accept and be the vessel for Jayn's strong
emotions, even when they are uncomfortable or inconvenient for me. It's
embarrassing when a child is melting down in public, but those are the times
when it helps just to shut out the world and focus intently on Jayn.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
Three Mommies
>>One of the greatest things Karl and I have had fun doing is playing withthe toys at the store, with or without the intention >>of trying it out to
buy. In any case, Karl likes to try things out while at the store. He spends
time in the store. I'm in the >>same isle looking things over while he pulls
this and that from the shelf or asks me to hand something to him from the
>>top shelves.That's one of Ryan's favorite things to do, too!
It's great because I get the opportunity to see what he's really interested
in about them, to notice trends, to talk about what he thinks about them,
about the quality or lack thereof in the toy materials, what the toy does
and if it's a complete enough set in our opinion, and on and on.
Lately Ryan's been comparing the actual toys with the way they're shown in
commercials. The other day he said, "Do those commercials think I'm stupid
or what? This thing craps!"
Peace,
Jean Elizabeth
http://3mommies.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I try really hard to only offer information or ideas that I genuinely
think the kids might not have considered. I have tried their whole
lives NOT to tell them things they already knew because that seemed to
me to be a great way to get them to stop paying attention to what I
said.-=-
Holly, especially, will say "Will you checklist me?" when she's going
on a trip or headed off for the culmination of some project. And she
means for me to offer her information and ideas and a list of things
she might need to have, so that she can check them off aloud, and add
those I come up with. But if she doesn't ask, I usually will say
"Do you have your phone charger?"
Her boyfriend was leaving for a day or two away, and I asked him if
he had his allergy medicine. He said no, thank you, I'll get it. So
I figured if he hadn't thought of that there might be other things.
I asked about a couple of things, and he went to get them, and
thanked me, and went out to the car. Then he came back in and got
his allergy meds. <g>
Marty and Holly somehow, years ago, just started to say "thank you"
when I advised them about things. Sometimes it means "I know" and
sometimes it means "Oh! good thinking." But they acknowledge for
themselves and me that they are being assisted and encouraged.
My friend Jeff is in his 40s now, but has been hanging around me
since he was 20 and I was pregnant with Kirby. We made a code
between us years ago, that if one of us reminds the other of
something we've already remembered, or gives advice we'd already
thought of, we say "You are very wise." Or "very wise." And it's
not said meanly or sarcastically, it's more like "I'm glad you
would've reminded me if I hadn't already thought of it." And it's
much nicer than an impatient "I know that" or "I did that already."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
think the kids might not have considered. I have tried their whole
lives NOT to tell them things they already knew because that seemed to
me to be a great way to get them to stop paying attention to what I
said.-=-
Holly, especially, will say "Will you checklist me?" when she's going
on a trip or headed off for the culmination of some project. And she
means for me to offer her information and ideas and a list of things
she might need to have, so that she can check them off aloud, and add
those I come up with. But if she doesn't ask, I usually will say
"Do you have your phone charger?"
Her boyfriend was leaving for a day or two away, and I asked him if
he had his allergy medicine. He said no, thank you, I'll get it. So
I figured if he hadn't thought of that there might be other things.
I asked about a couple of things, and he went to get them, and
thanked me, and went out to the car. Then he came back in and got
his allergy meds. <g>
Marty and Holly somehow, years ago, just started to say "thank you"
when I advised them about things. Sometimes it means "I know" and
sometimes it means "Oh! good thinking." But they acknowledge for
themselves and me that they are being assisted and encouraged.
My friend Jeff is in his 40s now, but has been hanging around me
since he was 20 and I was pregnant with Kirby. We made a code
between us years ago, that if one of us reminds the other of
something we've already remembered, or gives advice we'd already
thought of, we say "You are very wise." Or "very wise." And it's
not said meanly or sarcastically, it's more like "I'm glad you
would've reminded me if I hadn't already thought of it." And it's
much nicer than an impatient "I know that" or "I did that already."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
I loved that story about Chamille and her friend, and I might want to
change the names and put it where others can find it, but I have a
question about this:
-=-Getting kicked out of the mall for make-up is one thing,
getting kicked out of the mall because you are behaving badly, is quite
another!-=-
What kind of make-up would get someone kicked out of what kind of mall?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
change the names and put it where others can find it, but I have a
question about this:
-=-Getting kicked out of the mall for make-up is one thing,
getting kicked out of the mall because you are behaving badly, is quite
another!-=-
What kind of make-up would get someone kicked out of what kind of mall?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
My friend Jeff is in his 40s now, but has been hanging around me
since he was 20 and I was pregnant with Kirby. We made a code
between us years ago, that if one of us reminds the other of
something we've already remembered, or gives advice we'd already
thought of, we say "You are very wise." Or "very wise." And it's
not said meanly or sarcastically, it's more like "I'm glad you
would've reminded me if I hadn't already thought of it." And it's
much nicer than an impatient "I know that" or "I did that already."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
My husband Brian says:
"I am way ahead of you." ( he is a runner and cyclist can ou tell?)
I just say: "I got it"
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
since he was 20 and I was pregnant with Kirby. We made a code
between us years ago, that if one of us reminds the other of
something we've already remembered, or gives advice we'd already
thought of, we say "You are very wise." Or "very wise." And it's
not said meanly or sarcastically, it's more like "I'm glad you
would've reminded me if I hadn't already thought of it." And it's
much nicer than an impatient "I know that" or "I did that already."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
My husband Brian says:
"I am way ahead of you." ( he is a runner and cyclist can ou tell?)
I just say: "I got it"
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
>mall?
> What kind of make-up would get someone kicked out of what kind of
>Forewarning: if you don't like scary and bloody images don't browse
that photobucket site. There are some really amazing pictures in there
that Chamille took, but she's got some other stuff mixed in...
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x203/Sweet_For_Gotten_Girl/Picture189\
42.jpg
<http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x203/Sweet_For_Gotten_Girl/Picture18\
942.jpg>
Well there's a picture of what she looked like that day. The mall
security told me, because I asked, that they considered it a mask likely
to cause a disturbance, and that it was part of city code. She's worn
that make up to other malls and nobody has ever said a thing about it.
This particular mall caters to rich old white ladies and I think that
was the problem. She probably scared some old lady, who complained to
security.
She doesn't wear her make up like that much anymore, she does it
different lately, but for a while she did that a lot, fake blood,
stitches and the like. It was shocking at first but I got used to it.
It all stems from anime really. In anime those characters will go
around with blood and bandages and it's just part of the show. I think
Chamille wanted to see what that felt like. She probably would have
loved to fight some vampires or some other bad guy and such, but ya
know, you do what you can, and I'm pretty sure that I can't create that
for her reality.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
> Philosophically, it's up to me to accept and be the vessel for Jayn'sstrong
> emotions, even when they are uncomfortable or inconvenient for me.It's
> embarrassing when a child is melting down in public, but those are thetimes
> when it helps just to shut out the world and focus intently on Jayn.Margaux is almost past those days. She's 7 and she doesn't do that
>
nearly as often as she used to. Sometimes still, but it's easier to use
words to negotiate.
When she was younger and totally upset in the store, I would sit down in
the nearest quiet corner in the store and put her on my lap and hold her
and hug her or sit next to her until she was quiet and still. I often
counted backwards aloud from 10-1 and breathed deeply while doing it.
It allowed her to focus on something different. Counting from 1-10
didn't usually work because it was too ordinary, counting backwards
caught her attention because she was trying to figure out what I was
doing with those numbers.
It always embarrassed Chamille much more than it ever embarrassed me
when her sister freaked out in the store. Margaux is LOUD and very
clear about her feelings, even when she couldn't articulate them into
words.