prism7513

Long before I decided to homeschool or even unschool, I wondered about
this issue. And unschooling has only complicated the matter, so I
thought I'd see what the tendency is here.

While growing up, the only lessons I ever had and the only "sport" I
was in were piano playing and Bible quizzing. The piano playing, as I
found out just recently from my mother, was because "You used to
tinker on it at home."

Well, of course we (my sister and I) did. It was all there was besides
my dad's trombone! And getting an embrasure out of a 6 year old would
be hard enough but LIFTING the trombone would have been near
impossible! And even 6 month old babies pound away on a keyboard.

So we were subjected to lessons for 8 years, of which I gained a great
understanding of music theory, but no more talent than I did when I began.

The Bible quizzing was something *I* picked and loved, as it gave me a
place to meet friends which I didn't have at my private school. And
even after I switched to the public school (which I LOVED since people
didn't make fun of me!) I still loved the competition and memorization
of quizzing.

But if my parents had suggested or offered or shown me other choices,
I might have tried soccer, softball, volleyball, maybe ANOTHER
instrument, dance, who knows?

And so when my daughter was about 3 (she'll be 6 in a month) and some
of her peers started joining dance classes or swimming classes or
whatever, I wondered if I should be putting HER in a class.

I do know that I want my kids to be aware of their options for ANY
skill, but I'm not sure how to show them all of them with the
knowledge that they can actually TRY them if they want (in other
words, watching grown men on TV to my kids doesn't translate to "Oh,
can we do that, too?" - they see it as "big person" activity for when
they grow up.)

I did watch America's Got Talent with them a few times to show them
all the different things people can do, and told them, "If you ever
want to do something you see other people do, let me know and maybe
you can learn it" (maybe being defendant only on if there are classes
or videos or books or money to find a way to learn it.)

But I argue two ways in my head:

One: The earlier they start something, then they won't be behind when
they are doing it for competition or something

Two: The earlier they start they will burn out sooner and hate the
activity.

And I'm not sure either is true, or for that matter if classes of any
nature at this age is good or bad or neither...

I'm new enough to this, and having had not background with activities
that were chosen by me from many choices, I'm not sure what to do, if
anything.

I don't believe that some day out of the blue they will say to me, "I
want to learn how to tap dance" if they've never seen it. I wish so
much that my parents had at least given me the option or chance to be
involved in SOMETHING other than piano because maybe I would have
gained confidence from team sports or found friends from it.

I did sign Amber up for Girl Scouts, and I'll probably be her leader.
She's looking forward to that as she's my social butterfly. She also
seems interested in karate, which starts at age 6 at the YMCA here,
and I wouldn't mind that at all, if I can wing it with the twins somehow.

But I don't know what the WISE thing to do would be.

What have you guys done as far as activities or sports?

Deb

Sandra Dodd

Embouchure is "the mouth thing" (sometimes referring to the
mouthpiece of a wind instrument, and more often to the whole set of
factors about the position and muscle set and positioning of lips to
whatever flute or reed or brass-mouthpiece situation is at hand.

I had to look up the spelling because I hadn't heard or thought that
word for decades, but I used to play clarinet.

-=-It was all there was besides
my dad's trombone! And getting an embrasure out of a 6 year old would
be hard enough but -=-



Embrasure is a word, but it's about castle construction and arrow
shooting and oil pouring... I've heard that word many times since
I've heard the other. I've managed to help lots of people learn to
play recorder without ever using that "embouchure" word, but largely
because with playing recorder one holds the mouthpiece lightly and
loosely and no biting or lip pressure at all.



So... Sorry to people who just glossed over the word as something
they didn't understand and wondered what a trombone playing dad might
be wanting to get out of a six year old.

Me too, about piano curiosity and access leading to lessons.



I'll answer the other stuff in another note.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gwen

Here is a post from my blog where I was dealing with the same question (sort of):
http://lifeisjustthis.livejournal.com/220305.html

Megan is still taking Taekwondo and really enjoys it.  She only goes when she wants and I try not to worry about the cost (we are charged for the classes even if she doesn't go).  Past that post....our local Parks & Rec offered a four week horseback riding class.  I really thought Megan would enjoy it.  But she didn't even want to talk about it.  So I dropped it.  Megan says Taekwondo is enough "school" for now.

Gwen

--- On Tue, 9/23/08, prism7513 <penley75@...> wrote:But I argue two ways in my head:

I did sign Amber up for Girl Scouts, and I'll probably be her leader.
She's looking forward to that as she's my social butterfly. She also
seems interested in karate, which starts at age 6 at the YMCA here,
and I wouldn't mind that at all, if I can wing it with the twins somehow.

But I don't know what the WISE thing to do would be.

What have you guys done as far as activities or sports?

Deb





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 23, 2008, at 11:56 PM, prism7513 wrote:

> I do know that I want my kids to be aware of their options for ANY
> skill, but I'm not sure how to show them all of them with the
> knowledge that they can actually TRY them if they want (in other
> words, watching grown men on TV to my kids doesn't translate to "Oh,
> can we do that, too?" - they see it as "big person" activity for when
> they grow up.)

But for some kids it would be. That's why getting to know what each
of your kids need is more important than a consensus of what other
people would do :-)

Rather than a commitment to something that sounded fun, trying things
out, knowing they can quit is good. Just telling kids about their
options isn't enough for all kids but for some kids it is.

Trying something is learning too. They learn a little more about
something and a little more about who they are and what they like (at
the moment).

> One: The earlier they start something, then they won't be behind when
> they are doing it for competition or something
>

Unless a child is driven to do something, competition is really more
about adult egos than what children enjoy.

The more you expose them to, the more likely they'll find what floats
their boats. But be prepared to let it be *their* boat. Let go once
they take the wheel and let them explore as far as they want to go.
Open the locks for them, but let them decide.

> Two: The earlier they start they will burn out sooner and hate the
> activity.
>

I think it's too easy for parents to see a child who is really good
at something when young and start projecting greatness into the
future. Not always in a grasping way, but thinking how much fun it
will be for the child to excel at something they enjoy. So when the
child is done, the parent can feel their own hopes for that happiness
crushed.

There isn't a reason for a child to burn out unless there's pressure.
(Usually it's external, though not always.) There are lots of reasons
for a child to feel they're done for now and move onto something else.

> And I'm not sure either is true, or for that matter if classes of any
> nature at this age is good or bad or neither...
>

Depends on the child :-)

But I think exposure in a nonpressure way is more important than
classes. Attend performances. Go to Saturday night dances. Read
books. Watch movies. Talk to people.

My daughter started guitar lessons when she was 15. And she went
through the motions, wanting to be good but not really fired up about
it. It wasn't until she watched old videos of Eddie Van Halen that
she "caught the bug". *Then* the lessons had meaning.

Lessons are more likely to feed a fire that's already lit than to
light the fire themselves.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

This is great:

-=-The more you expose them to, the more likely they'll find what floats
their boats. But be prepared to let it be *their* boat.-=-



-=-Organized activities - is there a good, or better time?-=-

I don't think of one-on-one lessons as "organized activities."
Classes with projects, yes. Camp.

The time for any of that is when a kid thinks it will be fun.

Last night when I was full of adrenaline, after I *finally* had read
all my e-mail, I played Clementi. I would say I played sonatas, but
I only played the fast and hard movements that involve speed and
banging. Soft, quiet, peaceful movements would have just frustrated
me. I needed something physical and a little big furious. And I
found myself swinging my leg in time with the music--and my WHOLE
leg, knee down.

If I were a runner, I would've run and run, but I'm more a leg-
breaker and a fall-downer, unfortunately.

When I was five my parents found a piano teacher. About a year
later, 14 months, I'm not sure, I quit, in tears, insisting I didn't
want it anymore. Y'know what I wanted? To watch Wagon Train. But I
didn't have the idea that maybe they could've rescheduled my lesson.

When I was 12 or 13 I started lessons again, because I wanted to. I
still had practiced the things I had learned, and expanded on them.
I had started playing clarinet at the age of 11 (5th grade band) and
I was reading music at church, in choir. So I wasn't needing the way-
difficult part of learning to read notation or of learning where
things were on the piano. I knew all that. I went for several reasons:

direction

coaching

to get good enough to play at church, because I had become very
religious

I was never really good enough to play at church. I subbed a couple
of times for unimportant services, and I made mistakes and I hated that.



So anyway, I have had an interest in music my whole life, and in the
history and connections and theory and internationalness and
snobbishness of "formal musicianship," and traditions of folk music,
and there is a UNIVERSE of music that doesn't involve lessons.

Try to look at it (music, everything) as learning, instead of
"activities."



Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Until this fall ( Naruto my son turned 6 this Summer) we have only tried a class once.
It was supposed to be a French class in one of his best friends home with only playing, songs and games.
He is a very social guy that craves beeing  around his friends. They also told me if he was not interested he could walk away and go play in the play room..
The other kids were all homeschooled.
Needless to say when he was bored and ready to move on he was "encouraged" to stay still and "pay attention"
So we went to a few classes because he wanted to go but it was  bittersweet for both of us.
This fall he is doing tons.
He is doing theater once a week.
TaeKwon Do whenever he wants ( we pay per month and you can come as much or as little as you want)
He joined Cub Scout.
We are part of a homeschool group that gets together for field trips and lots of great stuff once a week.
We also just started in a co-op where they have classes 2-3 times a month from 1PM until 3:30PM
for Chess, Lego, Theater and Arts.
We did our first session yesterday and he loved it so far.
I cringe about it a bit but he loves being around other kids.
He will go when he wants to. It is early to say if he will keep a busy schedule like that.
Organized activities would not have been fun for him even a few months ago.
But now he wants those and wants to be around other children.
As long as he does those without expectations from my part I think we will be OK.
I read that one of Pam's daughters had the same needs and that they did a lot of group activities.
Any input and ideas would be appreciated.
 
 

 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

>
> And so when my daughter was about 3 (she'll be 6 in a month) and some
> of her peers started joining dance classes or swimming classes or
> whatever, I wondered if I should be putting HER in a class.
>


My oldest, now 14, took a lot of classes when she was little. I taught
dance classes at a rec center and she came along for the ride, so to
speak, so while I was teaching, she was taking classes. This started
about the age of almost 5. She took dance classes with me, gymnastic
classes, sport classes, spanish classes, craft classes, whatever looked
fun to her, she did it. She was there in the building with me, so she
did stuff. She loved it a lot! There was a huge multi-level jungle gym
thing too that she spent a lot of time exploring as well.

>
> One: The earlier they start something, then they won't be behind when
> they are doing it for competition or something

I really don't like the idea of being behind or ahead, even for
competitive sports. If a kid has the talent and drive they will do it.
I know parents that push and help their kids get there, but it seems
that the kids that end up really making it, did it because they wanted
to.

My younger daughter is taking ice skating lessons right now. It gets
really competitive as you get older and more advanced. I see parents of
young children, forcing them to practice and visibly see their faces go
blank and sad with the pressure, while all their friends are playing and
having fun.

When Chamille was little and took ice skating lessons, this was a big
factor that made her stop taking classes. She didn't like the way some
of the parents treated their kids and it was enough to make the
experience unpleasant for her.


>
> Two: The earlier they start they will burn out sooner and hate the
> activity.
>


I'm sure that all of that is external pressure. If a kid is happily
enjoying an activity at any age, they will do it until it is no longer
enjoyable and stop doing it.

>
> What have you guys done as far as activities or sports?
>


Margaux and Chamille have been involved in, either both or one or the
other, Girl Scouts, tennis, swimming, dance, gymnastics, gym games, ice
skating, martial arts, foreign language, art, and many other things.
Those were just the organized things that they've done or are doing.
There were other things that we've done that have been active and fun
that weren't in classes.

Verna

We do what the kids want to do. I dont feel the need to put them in
classes so they wont miss out on any early edge they might miss. If
they want to take something we do it. When they want to stop we stop.
They take classes for two reasons 1. to be around kids they like and
2. to learn something they are interested in learning. One might
outweigh the other if it is important enough to the child.

prism7513

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> Embouchure is "the mouth thing" (sometimes referring to the
> mouthpiece of a wind instrument, and more often to the whole set of
> factors about the position and muscle set and positioning of lips to
> whatever flute or reed or brass-mouthpiece situation is at hand.
>

LOL! Thank you for doing my dirty work (sheepish grin here). I tried
spelling it right, and spellchecker (my best friend, worst enemy)
suggested the one I used. I didn't think there was an R in the
beginning of the word, but didn't know how else to find the right
spelling. I find spell check only works if you can guess MOST of the
word, and most of the time, I can't.

Deb

prism7513

--- In [email protected], "Verna" <lalow@...> wrote:
>
> We do what the kids want to do. I dont feel the need to put them in
> classes so they wont miss out on any early edge they might miss. If
> they want to take something we do it. When they want to stop we stop.
> They take classes for two reasons 1. to be around kids they like and
> 2. to learn something they are interested in learning. One might
> outweigh the other if it is important enough to the child.
>

But how do they know what's out there? I'd like to get them exposure
so they can see the choices, since I never got that chance. But short
of signing them up, how to I expose them, then, is the question? We
don't have a lot of shows and stuff here (very rural area) and for now
it's hard to go to things with the twins. I can determinately wait
another year, but I just wanted to see if other unschoolers had their
kids in organized things this young or not, and why.

Deb

Verna

I can relate somewhat to having some difficulty getting the kids to
thing logistically. I have 4 kids 6 and under. You can only do what
you can do right now but If she seems to want more you try to find
opportunities. I find activities through the Parks and rec, churches,
local homeschool groups that are not expensive and tell them about
them. My kids let me know if they are interested in a sport cause
around here alot of kids play soccer and basketball especially. We do
what we can.

Pamela Sorooshian

On Sep 24, 2008, at 10:44 AM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY wrote:

> I read that one of Pam's daughters had the same needs and that they
> did a lot of group activities.
> Any input and ideas would be appreciated.

Roya. She'll be speaking at the "Good Vibrations" conference in San
Diego next September! (Plug plug plug ....... <G>).

I got pretty good at finding ways to let her sample lots of different
activities without getting into long-term commitments before it was
clear that she wanted to get serious about pursuing it.

Remember to think outside the box - sometimes you can make things
happen so they work better for you.

Once I even tracked down some dance teachers to come to our park day
and give group swing dance lessons. We had about 20 people - adults
and kids - swing dancing in the park.

-pam

Jenny C

>
> But how do they know what's out there? I'd like to get them exposure
> so they can see the choices, since I never got that chance. But short
> of signing them up, how to I expose them, then, is the question? We
> don't have a lot of shows and stuff here (very rural area) and for now
> it's hard to go to things with the twins. I can determinately wait
> another year, but I just wanted to see if other unschoolers had their
> kids in organized things this young or not, and why.
>


Part of your job, if you are serious about unschooling, is to find ways
to expose your kids to lots of things. Books and organized classes are
not the only way to find information. It's how schools do it, and
people get locked into thinking that's how it's done.

Living rurally doesn't mean you live in a vacuum. Nature is all around
and can lead to all kinds of things. TV, movies, drives, stores, all of
those things can be jumping off places of more discovery about the
world.

Really look at your kids and see what they really like doing right now,
here today, and expand on that. If they like to sit and color in
coloring books, find more things to do with crayons, or different
coloring utinsels, or make stained glass paper art, or use blank paper
instead for a change, then see what else you can do with blank paper,
cut it, fold it, burn it, whatever, etc. etc. If that feels
overwhelming, maybe your not a crafty person, make all those things
handy and available and let the kids at it whenever they want.

Every family and every person in that family will have things they like
to do, even if they live in the middle of nowhere, and they will find
ways to do them. An unschooling parent's job is to help kids get what
they want and need and explore and expand on that. Every kid is going
to have a different set of wants and needs, some easier attained than
others, but really everything is possible if you really set your mind to
it. Even if it never happens, it's the attitude that makes it or breaks
it. You really have to have that "can do" attitude!

prism7513

Every kid is going
> to have a different set of wants and needs, some easier attained than
> others, but really everything is possible if you really set your mind to
> it. Even if it never happens, it's the attitude that makes it or breaks
> it. You really have to have that "can do" attitude!

I actually DO do a ton of stuff with the kids, and I'm not looking for
more right now. I simply wanted to know if the general consensus among
unschoolers was that organized sports for young children, or classes
(like music or karate) for young children were something that adds to
or hinders the unschooling process. And if it can benefit, then how to
I bring up the idea without pushing it? Or do I just wait until she
hears about it somewhere, that type of thing.

Mostly, it just comes out of the fact that I WISH someone had told me
the things I COULD have joined and been a part of as a child, but no
one did. So I was put in a class that I didn't like (piano) and didn't
truly benefit from.

I'd love for my kids to discover whatever it is they enjoy doing, but
also that they see all the different types of things out there that
are available to them. As they grow, this will be easier as their
comprehension grows. But honestly, at this age, like I said, they
don't understand that *kids* can do all the things they see or read
about. They need to see other kids do it, and I wasn't sure how to get
them to see that.

I actually find crafting very easy, to the point were I'm afraid
they'll get tired of crafts. But I'm always doing stuff because *I*
want to try it. Most of the time, when they see an idea, I'll end up
finishing because they get bored or it's a skill they haven't mastered
completely, yet. I'd leave the project undone, but I know they want to
enjoy the finished piece, and I like doing it anyway, so I finish it
for them (I'll ask if they want me to, and they always say, "yes" - if
it's something they CAN do, they usually do it just fine to
completion.) It's the other stuff that I can't do as easily, like
guitar lessons or tai kwan doe.

Deb

k

This is a question that begs people to predict in general or specifically
about their own kids or about your kids in the area of whether classes help
or hinder unschooling.

Am I right? Is that what you're asking?

~Katherine




On 9/25/08, prism7513 <penley75@...> wrote:
>
> Every kid is going
> > to have a different set of wants and needs, some easier attained than
> > others, but really everything is possible if you really set your mind to
> > it. Even if it never happens, it's the attitude that makes it or breaks
> > it. You really have to have that "can do" attitude!
>
> I actually DO do a ton of stuff with the kids, and I'm not looking for
> more right now. I simply wanted to know if the general consensus among
> unschoolers was that organized sports for young children, or classes
> (like music or karate) for young children were something that adds to
> or hinders the unschooling process. And if it can benefit, then how to
> I bring up the idea without pushing it? Or do I just wait until she
> hears about it somewhere, that type of thing.
>
> Mostly, it just comes out of the fact that I WISH someone had told me
> the things I COULD have joined and been a part of as a child, but no
> one did. So I was put in a class that I didn't like (piano) and didn't
> truly benefit from.
>
> I'd love for my kids to discover whatever it is they enjoy doing, but
> also that they see all the different types of things out there that
> are available to them. As they grow, this will be easier as their
> comprehension grows. But honestly, at this age, like I said, they
> don't understand that *kids* can do all the things they see or read
> about. They need to see other kids do it, and I wasn't sure how to get
> them to see that.
>
> I actually find crafting very easy, to the point were I'm afraid
> they'll get tired of crafts. But I'm always doing stuff because *I*
> want to try it. Most of the time, when they see an idea, I'll end up
> finishing because they get bored or it's a skill they haven't mastered
> completely, yet. I'd leave the project undone, but I know they want to
> enjoy the finished piece, and I like doing it anyway, so I finish it
> for them (I'll ask if they want me to, and they always say, "yes" - if
> it's something they CAN do, they usually do it just fine to
> completion.) It's the other stuff that I can't do as easily, like
> guitar lessons or tai kwan doe.
>
> Deb
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-If they like to sit and color in
coloring books, find more things to do with crayons, or different
coloring utensils, or make stained glass paper art, or use blank paper
instead for a change, then see what else you can do with blank paper,
cut it, fold it, burn it, whatever, etc. etc.-=-



If you exhaust the potential of regular paper, try those things with
waxed paper, aluminum foil, or plastic wrap. Grocery bags.
Cardboard tubes the materials came on.

Don't forget glue, tape, paints...

That doesn't even need to involve leaving your kitchen!

http://sandradodd.com/strewing

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

prism7513

--- In [email protected], k <katherand@...> wrote:
>
> This is a question that begs people to predict in general or
specifically
> about their own kids or about your kids in the area of whether
classes help
> or hinder unschooling.
>
> Am I right? Is that what you're asking?
>

Yes, in the same sense that one can "predict" that schools will tend
to shut down a child's natural curiosity and drive for learning, I
wondered if organized classes or sports, etc. at an early age will do
so as well, or if instead it seems to be a positive place to learn,
for most kids.

I'm not asking you to predict if my child will enjoy it, but rather if
the common agreement among unschoolers is that these things don't seem
to box a child in as much as a public school classroom might.

Deb

Jenny C

I simply wanted to know if the general consensus among
> unschoolers was that organized sports for young children, or classes
> (like music or karate) for young children were something that adds to
> or hinders the unschooling process. And if it can benefit, then how to
> I bring up the idea without pushing it? Or do I just wait until she
> hears about it somewhere, that type of thing.


>
> I actually find crafting very easy, to the point were I'm afraid
> they'll get tired of crafts. But I'm always doing stuff because *I*
> want to try it. Most of the time, when they see an idea, I'll end up
> finishing because they get bored or it's a skill they haven't mastered
> completely, yet. I'd leave the project undone, but I know they want to
> enjoy the finished piece, and I like doing it anyway, so I finish it
> for them (I'll ask if they want me to, and they always say, "yes" - if
> it's something they CAN do, they usually do it just fine to
> completion.) It's the other stuff that I can't do as easily, like
> guitar lessons or tai kwan doe.
>


I'm taking out 2 things from this post because there is something here
that could hinder the process of unschooling.

All this talk is about a finished product, the finished product of a kid
growing up with an aquired skill, the finished craft project, that leads
to the finished product.

Unschooling isn't as much about a finished product. It's about a
process. Doing crafty projects can result in something finished, but it
doesn't have to, it can be open ended with no finishing of any kind.
Sometimes just having lots of things available with no specific project
in mind will lead to some creative doing.

Kids needing to do organized activities early is about creating a
finished product of a person that is well trained to do something
specific. I'm thinking about competitive sports here or highly
competent musicians and child prodigies. I think many of these
individuals, while remarkable, aren't driving their own life to make
themselves this way. I think there are a lot of driven parents that
want their kids to "succeed". At some point in that journey there has
to be a certain amount of drive and talent in the child that is pushed.

The point is that, what I want for my kids is to enjoy their lives and
what they are doing. If they end up doing something really remarkable,
then that's really cool, but it isn't what my goal is as a parent. My
goal is to help my kids achieve what they want. If they have absolutely
no interest in anything remarkably huge and significant in worldly
standards, then I wouldn't push them.

Exposing kids to lots of intersting things is different than becoming
accomplished in lots of interesting things. I want my kids to reach
adult hood happily doing something that they like to do. The best way
that I know how to do that, is to allow them to do what they want to do
right now that interests them and makes them happy.

A very young child may not know that tap dancing exists, but it doesn't
mean that we have to make sure they know of it's existence. It will
come up eventually, and if not, then it really isn't relevant to their
lives. My feeling is to relax and enjoy the small play and exploration
and add to it, because one day they WILL want more and you will have to
find a way to provide it and it's bigger and more time consuming and
often more expensive.

Kids aren't empty vessels waiting to be filled, they are people that
will naturally lean towards what their natural talents and abilities
are. Anything else in their lives will be peripheral, cool maybe,
interesting maybe, but not lasting.

prism7513

> A very young child may not know that tap dancing exists, but it doesn't
> mean that we have to make sure they know of it's existence. .......


>
> Kids aren't empty vessels waiting to be filled, they are people that
> will naturally lean towards what their natural talents and abilities
> are. Anything else in their lives will be peripheral, cool maybe,
> interesting maybe, but not lasting.
>


I think the point I was aiming at, for ME, is that *I* feel like I
missed out on so many things I would have enjoyed, and it's too late
to go back to do them, even though to some extent some day I may be
able to enjoy certain elements of these activities, I now have a
family of my own which is my priority, and that takes precedence. So
I'll never get to enjoy those sports or possibly dance or what-not as
a kid. I don't want my kids to say, "How come you never told me I
could do that?"

I'm not trying to fill up their day, or even their lives. I KNOW they
have plenty to do and will find plenty to do on their own. My question
is how to I expose them to things they may not know are available to
them, and if they want to join in an organized activity, vs. just
playing in the backyard, is that something that will promote open
learning, or hinder it?

Deb

k

You lacked the opportunity because you lacked the knowledge? There are tons
of things in this world I have no notion of. If I don't know an option
exists then I can't put it in an array of things to choose from. So I do
see what you're saying.

But your question still only makes sense if we're talking about parents
having knowledge of things that they don't share even in the eventual
sense.

If your question is about missed opportunities despite parents' attempts to
share options, then why isn't eventually, when the child is older, a good
timing strategy for widening your child/ren's options?

~Katherine





On 9/26/08, prism7513 <penley75@...> wrote:
>
>
> > A very young child may not know that tap dancing exists, but it doesn't
> > mean that we have to make sure they know of it's existence. .......
>
> >
> > Kids aren't empty vessels waiting to be filled, they are people that
> > will naturally lean towards what their natural talents and abilities
> > are. Anything else in their lives will be peripheral, cool maybe,
> > interesting maybe, but not lasting.
> >
>
> I think the point I was aiming at, for ME, is that *I* feel like I
> missed out on so many things I would have enjoyed, and it's too late
> to go back to do them, even though to some extent some day I may be
> able to enjoy certain elements of these activities, I now have a
> family of my own which is my priority, and that takes precedence. So
> I'll never get to enjoy those sports or possibly dance or what-not as
> a kid. I don't want my kids to say, "How come you never told me I
> could do that?"
>
> I'm not trying to fill up their day, or even their lives. I KNOW they
> have plenty to do and will find plenty to do on their own. My question
> is how to I expose them to things they may not know are available to
> them, and if they want to join in an organized activity, vs. just
> playing in the backyard, is that something that will promote open
> learning, or hinder it?
>
> Deb
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-So
I'll never get to enjoy those sports or possibly dance or what-not as
a kid. I don't want my kids to say, "How come you never told me I
could do that?"-=-

Be careful of giving your children what you wanted when you were
little instead of what they seem to be wanting now. Can't tell the
difference? Strew.

http://sandradodd.com/strewing

If you think they won't know what tap dancing is, watch some Shirley
Temple movies. You don't need to sit down as a family and watch
them. YOU watch them. When there's a cool dance scene, pause it and
show whichever kid is nearly.

Or go to YouTube. There are undoubtedly tapdance things there.
Savion Glover, who was on Sesame Street for a few years. Poke
around. Things will lead to other things.

***I think the point I was aiming at, for ME, is that *I* feel like I***

That might be just too much first-person in too small a space for me
not to remind you that your focus should be about learning, and
creating a space for your children.

I

I

ME

*I*

I

Five out of sixteen words.



-=-My question is how to I expose them to things they may not know
are available to them-=-

Driving around, going to community activities (fairs, free concerts,
farmer's market, fleamarket)

Movies, radio, TV

Drive. Drive to other towns and see their fairs, concerts, farmer's
market or fleamarket. Spend the night.

Visit relatives and explore, don't sit in the house with the adults
talking and the kids being bored.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn L. Coburn

Jayn learns about organized activities in several ways:

Talking to her friends.
Seeing things on TV/movies.
Passing by groups of kids doing it (eg passing a sports field or martial
arts studio).
I tell her about classes etc that various home schooling parents in our
region are organizing.
Reading stories about stuff kids do.

So far she has tried and left ice skating, gymnastics and ballet. She has
rejected offered soccer, lego club, book club and choir. She is still
considering martial arts and returning to ice skating. She continues to love
her modern dance class that she has been taking since she was three -
although she rejected my offer to go to two classes per week.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "prism7513" <penley75@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 2:29 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Organized activities - is there a good, or
better time?


>
>> A very young child may not know that tap dancing exists, but it doesn't
>> mean that we have to make sure they know of it's existence. .......
>
>
>>
>> Kids aren't empty vessels waiting to be filled, they are people that
>> will naturally lean towards what their natural talents and abilities
>> are. Anything else in their lives will be peripheral, cool maybe,
>> interesting maybe, but not lasting.
>>
>
>
> I think the point I was aiming at, for ME, is that *I* feel like I
> missed out on so many things I would have enjoyed, and it's too late
> to go back to do them, even though to some extent some day I may be
> able to enjoy certain elements of these activities, I now have a
> family of my own which is my priority, and that takes precedence. So
> I'll never get to enjoy those sports or possibly dance or what-not as
> a kid. I don't want my kids to say, "How come you never told me I
> could do that?"
>
> I'm not trying to fill up their day, or even their lives. I KNOW they
> have plenty to do and will find plenty to do on their own. My question
> is how to I expose them to things they may not know are available to
> them, and if they want to join in an organized activity, vs. just
> playing in the backyard, is that something that will promote open
> learning, or hinder it?
>
> Deb
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.7.3/1693 - Release Date: 9/26/2008
> 7:35 AM
>
>

Robyn L. Coburn

<<<<> I'm not asking you to predict if my child will enjoy it, but rather if
> the common agreement among unschoolers is that these things don't seem
> to box a child in as much as a public school classroom might.>>>>

School boxes in many kids because most kids don't have a choice about being
there.

I can't speak for common agreement amongst unschoolers, just for myself. My
thoughts on this are that it depends on the individual child's temperament
and on the authenticity of the free choice in engaging in the activity. I
mean are they doing it, or staying in it, to please someone else or gain
someone else's approval, however subtle?

Jayn's activities are totally self chosen. She can leave anything as soon as
she wants to.

She has in the distant past had what I would call a negative internal
reaction to being in a formal class (swimming lessons). This made me very
cautious about what I would offer in terms of the structure of the activity.
Now she is much more able to tell me if she is considering something.

I absolutely do not believe that she needs classes or structure for any of
her *current* passions. Other than the gentle improv based modern dance
which she does because of affection for the teacher and her classmates, she
doesn't do any organized things right now - by her own choice. If that dance
class collapsed, she might or might not want me to find an alternative, and
everything would depend on how the teacher is.

The older and more mature Jayn gets (9 in 3 weeks) the stronger her sense of
self is, the less she would permit any class or organized activity to box
her in or change who she is. I don't have any fear of that happening now
even though I would have been somewhat worried when she was 4 or 5. However
she had no desire to be separated from me at that time, so it was actually
rather easy to make or find fun activities for us to be at together.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com

Jenny C

> I think the point I was aiming at, for ME, is that *I* feel like I
> missed out on so many things I would have enjoyed, and it's too late
> to go back to do them, even though to some extent some day I may be
> able to enjoy certain elements of these activities, I now have a
> family of my own which is my priority, and that takes precedence. So
> I'll never get to enjoy those sports or possibly dance or what-not as
> a kid. I don't want my kids to say, "How come you never told me I
> could do that?"
>


Ok, right, but, why can't you do those things now? When I was a kid I
really wanted dance classes but didn't get them until I was in high
school, but I went to college and got a degree in dance. It didn't stop
me from exploring dance. I didn't get to own a horse either, which is
something I wanted as well, but I didn't get to travel in outer space
either and I thought that would be cool too.

If you never tell a kid they Can't do something then, they may never
realize they can't. If you help them get whatever it is they DO want
right now, they will grow up feeling full and happy with their choices.
It sounds like you grew up feeling a huge lack of opportunity and that
perhaps you missed out on things. BUT you are still alive and kickin,
so I imagine you can still do stuff you want to do. Life doesn't end
for an adult when they have kids, nor should it, far from it really!
You should be doing stuff and inspiring your kids to do stuff and doing
stuff with your kids and letting your kids inspire new ideas to do and
explore with you!

Sandra Dodd

-=-Yes, in the same sense that one can "predict" that schools will tend
to shut down a child's natural curiosity and drive for learning, I
wondered if organized classes or sports, etc. at an early age will do
so as well, or if instead it seems to be a positive place to learn,
for most kids-=-

The reason school shuts kids down is that they are there against
their will.

If children are in classes or sports against their will, the same
thing will happen.

We can't talk about "most kids." The list is for talking about
unschooled kids.

So the question is this: Will an unschooled kid find sports to be
positive? I've seen many do so

Will unschoolers find organized classes a positive place to learn?
It depends on the kid and the class. We can't even say that dance
classes are more positive than photography classes, because each case
will have to do with what that child likes, wants and needs and what
the teacher is like.

-=-I'm not asking you to predict if my child will enjoy it, but
rather if the common agreement among unschoolers is that these things
don't seem to box a child in as much as a public school classroom
might.-=-

Where would the common agreement be on record? We don't vote on what
is common agreement, and if 90% of some group of unschoolers said yes
or no about something, it doesn't mean that one of the remaining nine
might not make a statement that swayed everyone's point of view.

Don't look for rules or consensus. Look at the principles by which
you want to live. Do you want your child to have choices? That's
how you don't box a child in.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-You should be doing stuff and inspiring your kids to do stuff and
doing
stuff with your kids and letting your kids inspire new ideas to do and
explore with you!-=-



Some families study martial arts together. There are other things
families can do together--bicycling, camping, hiking, photography,
ceramics, painting...



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

emiLy Q.

When/If I hear about an opportunity for my kids, I'll consider my
ability/willingness to make it happen for her. Most likely I'm willing and
able to take her, get her the required equipment etc. Then I bring it up
with her and ask her if she wants to do it. Sometimes she says yes, lately
the answer has been no. She declined to try a ballet class this fall, but I
may bring it up and ask her again in January when the new session starts and
see if she feels like it then.

I personally like the slightly less organized activities, like weekly story
times at the library. We can choose to go (or not) each week without
worrying about missing anything critical. Those also work well because both
my kids can attend.

-emiLy, mom to Delia (4.5) & Henry (1)
Babies are BORN potty trained!
http://www.BornPottyTrained.com

Margaret

> I actually find crafting very easy, to the point were I'm afraid
> they'll get tired of crafts. But I'm always doing stuff because *I*
> want to try it. Most of the time, when they see an idea, I'll end up
> finishing because they get bored or it's a skill they haven't mastered
> completely, yet. I'd leave the project undone, but I know they want to
> enjoy the finished piece, and I like doing it anyway, so I finish it
> for them (I'll ask if they want me to, and they always say, "yes" - if
> it's something they CAN do, they usually do it just fine to
> completion.

You sound very project focused. That is one way to do arts and
crafts, but I know it isn't the one that works best with my 5 year
old. We have a nice big (permanent) art table with LOTS of things for
her to work with all the time. We still do projects sometimes (tried
soap carving recently - very fun) but most of the arts and crafts that
she does is at her table. As you said your kids get bored and don't
finish it most of the time, I thought maybe the project thing isn't
working that well for them. Perhaps a different approach would be
more enjoyable for them.

prism7513

> School boxes in many kids because most kids don't have a choice
about being
> there.

This makes sense to me. Because my child CHOOSES an activity (and can
quit, if he chooses) then even if the activity is a structured one, it
is not boxing the child in.

Thank you for that!

Deb

Margaret

> The older and more mature Jayn gets (9 in 3 weeks) the stronger her sense of
> self is, the less she would permit any class or organized activity to box
> her in or change who she is. I don't have any fear of that happening now
> even though I would have been somewhat worried when she was 4 or 5. However
> she had no desire to be separated from me at that time, so it was actually
> rather easy to make or find fun activities for us to be at together.

That is something that I have been concerned about as well. Some
teachers treat children in a way that I do not like. I think that
when she is older it won't be as much of a problem, but it is
something that I pay a lot of attention to now as it is hard to stand
up to a teacher when you are 5.

An example: her first swim lesson was a private lesson. My daughter
loves swimming and was excited about the lesson, but the teacher had
her in tears within 5 minutes. No empathy and telling her to use her
words and ignoring the tears. My daughter is VERY good at explaining
how she feels so she had to be really upset for this to happen. (I
went over as soon as I saw that she was crying, but her back was to me
so it took a minute) I went over and invited her to come out of the
pool. After a very wet hug and some snuggles I had a talk with the
teacher. Rebecca did want to keep going so we finished the lesson and
the teacher was nice and didn't push her this time. Some classes
don't let you be in the room to watch and you can't be there for your
kid to help if something like that happens. I don't like those
classes.

As for choosing classes, I have looked at her and what she does and
thought about what she might like. I tell her about it and if she is
interested, we can give it a try. The local gymnastics classes offer
a free trial class. Other places do as well. You may be able to go
watch a class or ask if you can pay for one class and then decide
after that. Parks and Rec classes and teams are less likely to do
that as there is a spot that fills up... but perhaps on Saturdays you
can drive by the fields and watch a game for a few minutes every few
months - whatever is in season. I've been thinking about taking the
kids to high school games, too. I think it might be fun to watch.

We didn't do any classes at all until she was 4.5. We tried story
time at the library and I just didn't think she would be all that
interested in a structured activity based on our experience there.
I've done some mommy and me classes with my son (he wanted to do
gymnastics too) and they did really want him to sit and listen a lot
more than he wanted to, but since the moms are there they leave the
'discipline' to the moms so it worked out fairly well. He enjoyed
them.

I've also stayed away from classes like art b/c we can do it at home
and I don't want an art teacher telling my daughter that only a
certain way is right. I'm worried about it boxing her in and
curtailing her creativity. I've also been wary of sports teams...
competitiveness can bring out a very unpleasant, aggressive negative
streak in some coaches. If she wanted to be on a team, I would
probably see if my husband or I could try coaching (you don't have to
be that skilled when they are 5 :)

At this point classes aren't a huge part of what we do, but she has
tried gymnastics, dance, swimming and soccer. She wants another swim
class so we are starting that in a couple weeks. She has been asking
for dance, but in her dance camp she was sobbing almost every day (but
still wanted to go - 5 day camp, 90 min classes) and the teacher
didn't want me in the class.... she wants to go back and I really
don't think it is a good idea given how hard things were last time.

At any rate - that is how classes have worked around our house so far :)

Margaret