Stacey

I am new to homeschooling and I am currently using a curriculum
(k12), mostly because I am still in the "I have to do something that
other people will recognize as schooling or they will think I am not
educating my child" panic.

Ok, with that said. I really am interested in how to approach number
concepts without 'seat work'. I just finished reading an
article/blog entry on doing so, but...the person writing the entry
LOVES math. In fact, she does trig for fun and referred to algebra as
mind candy. Math is not my thing. I am not very good at it and
really never have been; Which is part of the reason I took my
daughter out of public schools. (They had placed her in a low reading
group and she began to dislike reading. It reminded me way to much of
my math issues.)

I realize that my mindset has to change and that will take some time.
In the meantime does anyone have suggestions for math games or
activities? My daughter really likes math and likes the worksheets
she has. Maybe playing learning games together would help me to feel
I am doing something quantifiable to expose her to number concepts
but still not be working with ridged school room methods.

Thanks
Stacey

Sandra Dodd

-=-Ok, with that said. I really am interested in how to approach number
concepts without 'seat work'.-=-

I would recommend, first, stop thinking of the world in terms of
things like "number concepts."

In the real school-free world, there are needs to do things like
measuring, comparing, weighing, cutting, stacking, splitting,
digging, planting, mowing, vacuuming, folding, grouping.... and
that's without even starting on the things that have numbers printed
right on them, or playing cards or video games.

Let your worries go. They will hinder your children's learning (and
your learning).

http://sandradodd.com/deschooling

http://sandradodd.com/math



-=-I realize that my mindset has to change and that will take some
time. -=-

It will take longer if we help you cling to your current methods.

-=-In the meantime does anyone have suggestions for math games or
activities? My daughter really likes math and likes the worksheets
she has. Maybe playing learning games together would help me to feel
I am doing something quantifiable to expose her to number concepts
but still not be working with ridged school room methods. -=-

Find the game "Zoombinis." You can probably find it used or cheap.
"The Logical Journey of the Zoombinis." Play that with your
daughter, or without her. Just play it and try not to be
analytical. After you've played the heck out of it for a week or so,
THEN look back at what you were doing.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

donnakeeble

> I realize that my mindset has to change and that will take some time.
> In the meantime does anyone have suggestions for math games or
> activities? My daughter really likes math and likes the worksheets
> she has. Maybe playing learning games together would help me to feel
> I am doing something quantifiable to expose her to number concepts
> but still not be working with ridged school room methods.
>
> Thanks
> Stacey
>
Hi Stacey,
Monopoly, candy land, shoots & ladders, cooking, rock tumbler, sewing,
knitting, crocheting, croqueting <bwg>, building, Legos, Harvest Moon,
The Sims, WOW, Sing Star, Rock Band, compost bin, grocery shopping,
washing dishes, laundry, filling the gas tank, paying the bills,
reading the phone bill, listening to music, making music..... living
in the world. Seriously, if *you* can find the math in each and every
one of these activities then you will be able to stop looking. As a
math geek and college math instructor, it was not easy to let go. But
my kids are much happier without *required math instruction*. That
does not mean that they cannot *request* math or will not function
mathematically within our world.
Donna

Sandra Dodd

-=-As a math geek and college math instructor, it was not easy to let
go.-=-


And for me, being math-wounded, it spooks me even to see the phrase
"college math instructor." But I was able to find ways not to pass
that on to my kids.

I can do math when it's in English. It's not the normal everyday math
that scares me. I sew without patterns and make things all the time
that involve what would be geometry if it were written out. It's
math notation that turns my insides to jelly.



But there are musicians who don't read music, and musicians who do
read music but who care little or nothing about the physics of
sound. It's okay.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 14, 2008, at 1:07 PM, Stacey wrote:

> I really am interested in how to approach number
> concepts without 'seat work'.

First by recognizing that schools don't stress number concepts. They
teach notation and formulas. They *hope* kids pick up how numbers
work and how to manipulate number information by going through the
drill of notation.

It's not that they don't want to teach concepts, but it's really hard
to test whether kids understand concepts. So they teach what can be
tested and hope some how the kids grasp the concepts. (From the
number of people who end up mathphobic, schools are doing more damage
than good. The kids who grasp math, do it in spite of instruction
rather than because of it :-/ )

Teaching the notation for concepts kids don't understand is *really*
hard. That's why it takes so much time and so much practice. It's
like teaching kids to write before they understand what language is.
And a negative consequence is that kids can shut down when they see
real world uses of the concepts that might help them grasp the
concepts, like freezing up with they see 20% free.

Real understanding of numbers comes from using them for personally
meaningful reasons. And it takes very little time. Minutes per week
rather than hours. Allowance. Video games. Cooking.

Talk out loud when you're solving a problem, like when they ask, "How
long until Daddy gets home?" "Well, it's 11 now, and he gets home at
6, so" holding up your fingers as you count out the hours "11, 12, 1,
2, 3, 4, 5, 6" so 8 hours. This is *not* a lesson. You're not doing
this for them, just talking out your thought process out loud. Don't
feel that they need to see you do this. It's just helpful to have it
swirling around in the atmosphere.

Learn how to manipulate numbers in your head so you don't go through
the torture that you were made to do in school: If they ask "What's 23
+18?" (say they have two toys they want to buy and want to know if
they have enough.) "That'd be the same as 21+20 so 41." *Estimate*
when things get large. "How many times does 38 go into 1234?" "Well,
38's almost 40 and 1234 is a little more than 1200, so about 300." If
they need more accuracy, use a calculator.

It's *much* easier for kids to learn the notation after they've done
lots of real, personally meaningful number manipulation that gives
them the information they want. They learn how numbers work from that.

There's nothing wrong with kids liking math worksheets. But
worksheets will get in the way of a parent grasping unschooling if
the parent sees something necessary in the worksheets that the child
will miss without them. They should be seen as just something to play
with, like a coloring book or a crossword puzzle.

Joyce






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

Here's something I wrote for a local list that might be helpful -- Joyce

========
> I'm just wondering whether anybody in the group has ever used any of
> the Mindsprinting programs before, or know of anyone who has? If so,
> do you have any thoughts/critiques to offer?

Unnecessary is my first reaction. My second reaction is that it's
bringing the stress of school home.

My third reaction after taking the test has unfortunately spawned an
evilly long rant on how poorly schools approach math and how much
damage they do.

Anyone who wants to, try taking the 5th grade test and notice how
high your frustration level goes. Notice how bad you feel about your
math skills.

I have a degree in electrical engineering. The test told me (as I
posed as a 5th grader named Joan) that I was performing on a 4th
grade level. Yeah. Right. Down below my rant is their list of the
areas I need to work on.

Here's some sample questions. *No* calculators. (There were a total
of 20.)

> Divide 6847 by 43.

Remember, no calculators. Why is my question. This is ancient
dinosaur thinking that math teachers have passed down to math
teachers since the beginning of schools. As a present for my freshman
year in college in 1974 I got an early electronic calculator. You had
to get them through the mail from Hewlett Packard. It was a
"scientific" calculator meaning it could do square roots and squares.
They were $150. (How much is that in 2008 dollars? ;-) That was *34*
years ago. I haven't done long division for *34* years. Before that
people used *slide rules*.

*WHY* are kids being made to do these ridiculous calculations by
hand? Math teachers will tell you they need to know. As an engineer,
I will tell you that's a lie.

What's *really* useful is for kids to *use* numbers in ways that are
meaningful to them, to get answers that mean something to what's
important to the kids. (And I can not understate how useful video
games are for using math concepts in real ways!)

While my daughter is *not* a math head -- she's more of an artist and
writer -- she played a lot of video games. I also walked myself
through problems when she needed an answer so she could see how I was
manipulating the numbers to get to an answer. While her father did
show her some cool stuff like Fibonacci numbers, the amount of math
she had each week was on the order of minutes compared to hours for
schooled kids. When she was 14 she decided it would be fun to take
the college math course (Statistics) her father taught. While she did
have him on hand to ask questions of while doing homework, she took
the tests just like the rest of the students. She was at or near the
top of the class. A class full of students 4-5 years older with 12+
years of math. (She went on to take several other math courses for
fun, one without him as teacher. Again, doing at or near the top of
the class.)

It's useful to be able to get a rough guesstimate to problems like
the one given. (The verbal walk through I would have given my
daughter is: I would bump the first number up to 7000 and the second
down to 40. Then 100 times 40 is 4000 and 200 times 40 is 8000. So
the answer is closer to but less than 200. That gives you a ball park
answer which is adequate for real life.) If I need an accurate
answer, I'm not going to rely on calculating by hand. I'm going to
use a calculator.

> Calculate the amount of elapsed time in hours, minutes, and seconds
> from 4:30:15 a.m. to 12:24:31 p.m.

Just looking at that makes me want to pull my hair out. *When* would
anyone need to know down to the second how much time between those
two? *When* would anyone need to know without a calculator?

*If* someone was in some field where such calculations were common,
they probably would eventually figure out tricks to do it quickly. 10
yo kids don't need tortured with such inanities that they're unlikely
to ever use.

> Hiro would like to visit Japan, the homeland of his grandfather.
> The trip will cost him 200,000 Japanese yen. How much will Hiro's
> trip cost him in American dollars? ($1.00 U.S. = 117.51 Yen)

My daughter is big into manga and anime and we've often wanted to
calculate how much some number of yen in a manga is in US dollars.

I'll tell you the trick: 1 yen is about a penny. That gets you close
enough to get a feel for what kind of money they're talking about.
Just move the decimal point over two places. 200,000 yen is
approximately $2000.

But for this problem, first, if the guy is booking a flight from the
US to Japan on the computer, they're not going to quote him a price
in yen. It's going to be in dollars. Okay, no matter. Say he needs
grandpa to wire him the money so needs to tell him how many yen.
Maybe he's going through some Japanese booking center. (Grumble.
Stupid made up question.)

Anyway, he's got the browser open. He types into the search box in
Google:

convert 200000 yen into US$

and it comes back and tells him:

200 000 Japanese yen = 1 869.2 US$

Quicker, more accurate, with up to the minute currency values than
doing it by hand with an out of date conversion.

> Find the volume of the frustum.

What the heck is a frustum? Well, one could guess from the picture
with the question. (Yahoo blocks pictures so I can't show you but you
could type it into Google Image if you wanted to see.) The word
itself might actually be interesting for some kids. It has a cool
sound. But by this point in the test, I'd bet a lot of kids would
feel inadequate that they don't know. Don't worry, kids. Life is an
open book test. If frustum *ever* comes up in real life, someone will
tell you or you'll be able to look it up.

> Select the drawing that shows triangle ABC with median BR using a
> compass and a straight edge.

I probably got this one wrong.

The problem with the question is that you have no idea why it's being
asked and what information you want to extract from what's given.

In real life that wouldn't be true. In real life, you'd understand
why the problem is set up that way and why you wanted the answer and
what you wanted to do with the answer once you had it.

> If it costs $3.50 for each person to swim, how much money did the
> pool make last weekend?

This is not far off questions that actually come up in real life.

(At least that's what I said originally. On second glance, it's not.
The question is stupid.
If the pool charges everyone the same, they're not going to know how
many of each they have.
But, it is *vaguely* similar to real life questions.)

The problem is that when kids who aren't grasping math are faced with
these word problems over and over, they tend to freeze up over time
and their brains shut down at the first hint of something that smells
like a word problem. So even when faced with a real life one that
they actually care about, they can cringe and feel like they can't do
it.

But when things like this are just part of life, when mom walks
through *real life* problems in front of the kids while she finds an
answer for them (or lets them if they're saying "No, don't tell
me!"), the problems aren't scary and kids can see why the problem is
worded as it is because the kids understand the real context and they
know why they want to know an answer.

(In this particular problem, the pie chart showing how many adults,
children and students there were was too small to read.)

> Draw an expression for the situation below. Matt has 4 more video
> games than Sarah. Sarah has x video games. How many video games
> does Matt have?

To make things really confusing, the answer was "None of the above."

When does anyone ever solve problems like that? They're fun for kids
who love puzzles. And you can buy books of them -- *not* workbooks,
but *real* puzzle books -- at grocery store checkouts and book stores.

While this problem is a math book version of an algebra problem,
again, the huge problem with it is that when would someone ever set
up a problem that way and why do they want the answer?

Real life problems have meaning. When my daughter was 10ish maybe --
and without demonstrating any previous need or desire to set up such
problems -- she asked, "Do you know how long it would take to drive
from Boston to LA?" At the time we were in the Pittsburgh airport. We
were waiting for a flight to LA. We had driven from Boston to
Pittsburgh a lot to see my father so she knew driving took 11 hours.
She knew the flight had taken -- I can't remember now, but say 3
hours. She knew the next leg of the flight was 6 (guessing again.) So
she said 33 hours. Absolutely spot on algebraic reasoning.

*That's* real life algebra. She could see how all the pieces fit
together. She had a desire for the answer. She found a way to use
what she knew to find out what she didn't.

> Find the mean of the following numbers: 19, 13, 25, 21, 19, 5
> Remember, no calculator.

> Not tortured enough? Do it again. Find the median of the following
> numbers: 14, 19, 17, 14, 24, 14

> Find the mode of the following numbers: 10, 3, 23, 20, 23, 13, 13

You *do* of course remember what a mode is, don't you? You've
probably used it 100s of times in real life.

No, you haven't.

While some people do use modes (I used them in programming and the
professor explained them in a couple of minutes), and probably some
branches of statistics. 10 yos don't need modes.

Some kids will get a kick out of them. But there's absolutely no
reason to make a 10 yo learn them. There's even more of a reason not
to make a 10 yo feel inadequate for not knowing or not caring.

> Find the odds against rolling a 5 or a 6 on a die.

I really liked probability in college. It was a nice respite before
we hit statistics ;-) While kids might have fun with probability,
they don't need to learn it when they're 10. It's easy to grasp,
takes minutes to learn when you're 18. Hours and hours when you're 10
if you don't understand why you're being made to do it. (And the
danger is that kids will decide they either hate math or that they're
dumb at math.)

Well, that was a few of the questions. And here's what the site says
I need to work on. Goodness, there were only 20 questions! At most I
may have missed a couple of the geometry ones (since I took the
practical route and used a calculator). If I were intimidated by
math, I'd feel really stupid.

4th Grade

(Click the arrow to expand this tab and view the concepts from 4th
grade Joan needs to work on).

Unit 40: Long Division - Two or More Digits with No Remainders
Unit 41: Long Division - Three or More Digits with Remainders
Unit 61: Measurement - Area
Unit 62: Area
Unit 409: Measurement - 2
Unit 411: Solving Equations
Unit 210: Mean, Median and Mode
Unit 211: Probability

5th Grade

(Click the arrow to expand this tab and view the concepts from 5th
grade Joan needs to work on).

Unit 201: Comparing and Ordering Numbers
Unit 205: Factors and Multiples
Unit 42: Understanding Fractions
Unit 43: Equivalent Fractions with Pictures
Unit 44: Simplifying Fractions
Unit 45: Four Types of Fractions
Unit 46: Adding Fractions - Same Denominator
Unit 47: Subtracting Fractions - Same Denominator
Unit 48: Adding Fractions - Different Denominators
Unit 49: Subtracting Fractions - Different Denominators
Unit 50: Multiplying Fractions
Unit 51: Dividing Fractions
Unit 52: Using BEDMAS with Fractions
Unit 403A: Time, Money, and Temperature
Unit 406: Number Sense - 2
Unit 407: Numeric Patterns
Unit 408: Data Analysis and Probability - 1
Unit 412: Logic and Proofs - 1
Unit 413: Problem Solving - 1

Joyce

Margaret

7 hours... if it is 11:00, then it isn't until 12 that an hour has
passed. I know that Joyce knows this but there are a lot of people
who have declared them to be frightened by math who might doubt
themselves instead of you when reading about the error :)


On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 12:35 PM, Joyce Fetteroll
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:

> Talk out loud when you're solving a problem, like when they ask, "How
> long until Daddy gets home?" "Well, it's 11 now, and he gets home at
> 6, so" holding up your fingers as you count out the hours "11, 12, 1,
> 2, 3, 4, 5, 6" so 8 hours. This is *not* a lesson. You're not doing
> this for them, just talking out your thought process out loud. Don't
> feel that they need to see you do this. It's just helpful to have it
> swirling around in the atmosphere.

Nancy Wooton

On Sep 14, 2008, at 12:51 PM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:

> Anyone who wants to, try taking the 5th grade test and notice how
> high your frustration level goes. Notice how bad you feel about your
> math skills.


They're trying to sell online tutoring to parents. If the parents
could do the math, why would they need the tutor? Of course, they're
going to make you feel stupid.

Snake oil comes in all kinds of bottles.

Nancy

Verna

We are pretty new to unschooling, although we never really schooled.
I have had to reframe my thinking about alot of things and honestly
that has been the most exciting thing about it. To just step back and
see how it is all connected, and how much learning my kids are doing.
Math is an area where personally I always did well. Somehow, early on
I learned to find the fun in figuring out the problems I saw them as
puzzles to work out. I could not for the life of me memorize a
thing. still dont know my multiplication tables, never could keep
them in my head. I passed with an A college Physics without EVER
memorizing a formula (and we couldnt bring them with us). I learned
that it could all be figured out if you knew the concepts behind
them. That is what I see my kids doing. Figuring things out without
the clutter in their heads.

Robyn L. Coburn

<<<> Well, that was a few of the questions. And here's what the site says
> I need to work on. Goodness, there were only 20 questions! >>>>

So you "need" to work on more areas than there were questions?? That's some
whack math.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com

Jae G

Math Power, How to help your child love math, even if you don't by Patricia Kenschaft is a great book for understanding math. It is written for parents with kids in public school and she is a mathematician who has taught at a teacher's college for over a generation. But I find it easy to discard the schooly stuff. She has some great unschooling points, such as, things like sorting silverware are all about set theory. Especially if you have mismatched silverware, like we do. There is math all around us if you stop and mindfully think about it. And when I do notice it, I can share it with my kids.

My husband and I love math, although I am terrible at calculations, so our kids are exposed to math in lots of different ways. My oldest and youngest do calculations in their heads but my middle son (15) is worse than I am. But he has a calculator on his cell phone. Calculations are just a tiny part of math and I made it through advanced calculus in college without being good at them and that was before there were calculators.

My son did use text books to go through from algebra to calculus with me but he wanted to, and he picked out which books worked for him. We used an interesting assortment. It was also really great bonding time for us since I went through it with him. I wasn't teaching him but scribing for him because he didn't hand write. He loves that he knows the math and won't have to take it in college, unless he wants to. And from being totally math phobic when he left school in 3rd grade, he now reads Ian Stewart for fun.

If you have a child who is really into math, they can always find someone who will help them dive into the math concepts with them. And then your child can teach them to you, if you are interested.
Jae

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 15, 2008, at 12:04 AM, Robyn L. Coburn wrote:

> So you "need" to work on more areas than there were questions??
> That's some
> whack math.

Well, not really! Like real life, none of the questions can totally
isolate the math to one single concept. Looking at what I supposedly
need to learn better the mode and median was in there but I'm betting
it was because I added wrong and probably because I miss clicked on
numbers on the onscreen calculator. I think I need to play more video
games to increase my hand eye coordination! ;-)

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

>
> I have had to reframe my thinking about alot of things and honestly
> that has been the most exciting thing about it.


You probably know this already. Reframe how you think and say things like
"need to," "have to" or "had to." Instead say I chose/choose to or I
wanted/want to. To put the emphasis on your ability to choose and take the
emphasis completely off the feeling that things are doing things to you.

Not particularly about you.... Just taking off on the thought here---

For me, unschooling is a goldmine of choice/options! Like many of us, I
grew up without the acknowledgement of my ability to choose much of anything
for myself, and "had to" credit my parents with decision making power. Is
that at least somewhat why I have too often made them responsible for my
childhood? I really don't like it at all, the unwanted opportunity to judge
the product of childhood.

My personal growth has always been and continues to be my own process,
whether or not acknowledged as such by anyone. In a very real sense,
unschooling gives me the chance to reclaim my childhood for the process that
it still is, as the inner child lives on.

Back to what you said, Verna, I love how you talk about math. I never could
memorize anything either and I am finally friendly with numbers in the sense
of how they work, which I wasn't when I was in school. :) Cool huh?

~Katherine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Verna

--- In [email protected], k <katherand@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > I have had to reframe my thinking about alot of things and
honestly
> > that has been the most exciting thing about it.
>
>
> You probably know this already. Reframe how you think and say
things like
> "need to," "have to" or "had to." Instead say I chose/choose to
or I
> wanted/want to. To put the emphasis on your ability to choose and
take the
> emphasis completely off the feeling that things are doing things
to you.
>
> Not particularly about you.... Just taking off on the thought here-
--
I see what you are saying here with the "have to" but I dont think
when I wrote that sentence I was thinking in the "no choice mode".
For this I have been so excited to be focused on what the kids are
learning, instead of always on what they are not learning, that it
have been a joy to reframe my thinking. I will try to be more clear
in my messages.

Sandra Dodd

-=-I'm betting
it was because I added wrong and probably because I miss clicked on
numbers on the onscreen calculator. I think I need to play more video
games to increase my hand eye coordination! ;-)-=-



When I quit being a teacher, I was at an employment agency in
Albuquerque one day and they had clerical tests. They asked how fast
I typed, and I hadn't been tested for over ten years, and I only went
about 42 WPM then, so I looked pained and said "60?" I tested at
over 80. They guy looked at me half with admiration, and half with
the idea that I must be an idiot. But I had been typing letters, and
newsletters, and exercises for the kids at school (because I never
used the textbook) and song lyrics. Not "real" typing. I had never
been a secretary where my typing skills were in competition with
others doing the same kinds of things.

So he asked if I could use a ten-key. I said I don't know what that
is. So he showed me a calculator he had there on the desk, and I
said "OH! Yeah, I can use that without looking at it."

Then he *knew* I was an idiot. <g> But I had been using a calculator
to average grades for 130 students at least four times a year for six
years, and for balancing my checking account, and because my math
confidence was damaged by school, I usually did each thing two or
three times. I'd do it twice for sure, and if I got the same answer
the second time, I didn't go for the tie-breaker third time.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-For me, unschooling is a goldmine of choice/options! -=-

For anyone tho doubts that a simple change of terminology makes much
difference, try these:



For me, unschooling is a goldmine of choice/options!

For me, unschooling is a minefield of choice/options.





Thanks for making that point, Katherine--for seeing the "I have had
to" that I had glossed over.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Back to what you said, Verna, I love how you talk about math. I
never could
memorize anything either and I am finally friendly with numbers in
the sense
of how they work, which I wasn't when I was in school. :) Cool huh?-=-

I can never, ever, remember the formula for calculating percentages,
but when I need to do that and I'm away from equipment or a computer,
I figure it out with something out of ten, move the numbers around
until I see the formula, and plug the problematical numbers in there.

And when I was at a huge event (Pennsic XIII, for those who know or
care) and we were informed that all merchants had to register and pay
Pennsylvania sales tax (not easy in those days, when leather belts
were taxed and cloth belts were, and the list of what wasn't taxable
was WAY more complicated than Texas ever imagined in their bluest
blue-laws days when you couldn't buy a broom on a Sunday)... I
figured out how to umbrella us all under the treasurer of the
corporation (who was there, and a friend of mine, and that year I was
president, which didn't hurt, and was a merchant too, so I needed to
know from both angles). I also figured out the formula for how to
just take the tax out of the gross without adding it on and then
taking it off. I don't remember what it was, but I'm going to say
8%. If tax is 8% and you don't want to add it, and you don't want
to change all your prices, you don't keep 92 cents out of a dollar.
You keep more. Because 8% of 92 cents is less than 8 cents.

I was babbling in English to all these math-types all around me
trying to get them to help me figure out how to calculate how to take
tax OUT of the dollar, not stick it on top, and they were frustrating
me because they couldn't see what I was getting at. And I'm the one
who dropped out of math classes at 15. Some of them has masters'
degrees in mathy stuff, and the corporate treasurer was an accountant
for Ragu. But Ragu doesn't make you figure things out, just keep
books the way they tell you to do.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I see what you are saying here with the "have to" but I dont think
when I wrote that sentence I was thinking in the "no choice mode".
For this I have been so excited to be focused on what the kids are
learning, instead of always on what they are not learning, that it
have been a joy to reframe my thinking. I will try to be more clear
in my messages.-=-



She wasn't criticizing that message, but just pointing out that it's
yet another step you could start working on, to hear what phrases
you're using in your thinking and in your explanations (to yourself,
your kids, and others).



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Stacey

Wow, thank you everyone! The replies have been extremely helpful. I
really appreciate the discussion. It seems I have forgotten about the
basic things we do every day that involve 'math'.
Hopefully my family will become more confident with what we know and
can do, and I won't feel that I HAVE to try to overdo providing
a `learning rich' environment. As one of the ladies pointed out in the
earlier replies it will make things easier on me if I try to focus on
what she IS learning as opposed to what she ISN'T.

Again, Thanks for the support.

Stacey

Jenny C

> But there are musicians who don't read music, and musicians who do
> read music but who care little or nothing about the physics of
> sound. It's okay.
>
>


And there are people like me who can play music and read notes and pick
out songs on things, but I'm most certainly not a musician in the sense
that I sound awesome and people gather round to hear me play!

I used to play the violin a lot, and became rather profficient. I could
hammer it out and the notes would be perfect, but the delivery wasn't
anything to write home about. I never could "feel" the music and do
that thing that musicians do that make our ears go "aaawwww"!

Jenny C

> And a negative consequence is that kids can shut down when they see
> real world uses of the concepts that might help them grasp the
> concepts, like freezing up with they see 20% free.
>
> Real understanding of numbers comes from using them for personally
> meaningful reasons. And it takes very little time. Minutes per week
> rather than hours. Allowance. Video games. Cooking.
>


I have a kid who LOVES numbers and number combinations. We have math
computation bingo cards that she loves too. I figure out most of the
answers for her, but sometimes she beats me to the answer. She's 7 and
has never had a math lesson in her life.

One thing that I figured out about a year ago, with her is that she
comes to her answers very differently than I do. I've hesitated
figuring out the answers out loud for her because I don't want to mess
up or confuse what she's got going on in her head already.

I've used her system to give her answers. It works great for her. It
sometimes confuses me, causes me to "translate" in my head, so to speak.
What I became keenly aware of, is that people who teach math to kids,
effectively shut down that natural process that kids do on their own,
which is soooo effective to each individual. Teaching math forces a set
way to figure out math computation to get a right answer. Really, what
kids should be doing is finding their own way to make sense of it, then
double checking with the answer to make sure their computation is right.

Margaux figures things out in multiples of 3's and 6's, and the rest are
remainders kind of that get added on. She does her computation of
whatever it is she is trying to figure out and then double checks with
me, if her answer is right. It's mostly always right, if it's divisible
by 3, then it's always right. She uses this system all the way up to
100 or so, then she gets confused by the triple digits.

Jenny C

> When does anyone ever solve problems like that? They're fun for kids
> who love puzzles. And you can buy books of them -- *not* workbooks,
> but *real* puzzle books -- at grocery store checkouts and book stores.
>


Margaux likes puzzles books waaay more than any other kind of book. She
likes the books that you have to find hidden things, the harder the
better, the more puzzling the better! Tricks and stuff to find the
answer, just try and stump her!

> Well, that was a few of the questions. And here's what the site says
> I need to work on. Goodness, there were only 20 questions! At most I
> may have missed a couple of the geometry ones (since I took the
> practical route and used a calculator). If I were intimidated by
> math, I'd feel really stupid.
>


This is one of the main reason that I never registerd my kids with the
state, because they would have to do mandated testing. Chamille would
have failed the math portion, she probably still would. At 14, she
understands basic math concepts, she knows money really really well.
She can find which item in a grocery store is the better deal quickly,
with hardly any time at all, quicker than me.

I checked out the sample tests for her age, and I couldn't do about half
the problems. It was math that I never encountered in all my schooling.
So, even though I think my daughter is really great at the math she
knows and uses in real life, that's not what was on the test. It would
have left her feeling inadequate and stupid and frustrated. And for
what? Some person that works for the school district would have made
her redo it until she got a high enough score for their standards. It
wasn't worth it!

She may have to take it next year though, if she wants a driver's
permit, since where we live, you can't get one without getting a notice
from the school district saying you are registered and your up to snuff
by their standards.

lifeislearning

--- In [email protected], "Jenny C" <jenstarc4@...> wrote:

> > But there are musicians who don't read music, and musicians who d
> I used to play the violin a lot, and became rather profficient. I could
> hammer it out and the notes would be perfect, but the delivery wasn't
> anything to write home about. I never could "feel" the music and do
> that thing that musicians do that make our ears go "aaawwww"!
>

I find myself wondering whether an unschooling child would come to
this conclusion. I was really interested in music as a teen, but
unwilling and unable to practice much due to many school-related
pressures. To this day I don't consider myself a "musician" even
though I play the piano and guitar and a little violin and sing on a
regular basis in a choir and even occasionally solo. Where is the
line between a musician and a non-musician? Aside from the fact that
there are people making money at music, I'm not sure there is one,
only whether the person in question is taking their own development
seriously. I have a hunch my hesitation might have something to do
with the fact I was encouraged only to do things as a child if I was
"good enough" at them. Since I was encouraged to quit the piano I
figured I wasn't. I hope very much to spare my unschooling kids this
way of looking at the world. I want them to play or sing or whatever
because they want to and because they can always improve their skills
if they put time and energy into them.

Barb

Sandra Dodd

-=-Hopefully my family will become more confident with what we know and
can do, and I won't feel that I HAVE to try to overdo providing
a `learning rich' environment-=-

I don't think your family needs to be more confident in what they
know and what they can do.

I think if you can relax and smile and support and provide (food,
time, space, materials, ideas) for them, you will see more and more
learning yourself. But you don't need to say anything. It can spoil
the mood entirely to say "look what you're learning!"



You don't have to "try to overdo" providing an environment" but you
shouldn't stop trying to provide one.

http://sandradodd.com/strewing

http://sandradodd.com/nest

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Where is the
line between a musician and a non-musician? Aside from the fact that
there are people making money at music, I'm not sure there is one,
only whether the person in question is taking their own development
seriously.-=-



I don't think "taking development seriously" is a criterion either.
I'm a musician, but I don't take my own development seriously. I
was good from the time I was little, but it's not where I wanted to
live. It's not my primary or secondary focus. It's a thing.

I have very athletic friends who don't have an athletic job nor an
athletic primary hobby.



There are people who consider themselves to be musicians because they
take their development seriously and maybe even make money at music
(or try to) who aren't very good musicians. There are "serious"
athletes who spend tons of time and money on their chosen pursuit but
aren't really very talented at it.

I think musical intelligence plays out differently in different
lives, just as do the others:

http://sandradodd.com/intelligence



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Anthony Aduhene

How can I sign of this list please

Thank you



From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 11:26 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] music (was unschooling and math)



-=-Where is the
line between a musician and a non-musician? Aside from the fact that
there are people making money at music, I'm not sure there is one,
only whether the person in question is taking their own development
seriously.-=-

I don't think "taking development seriously" is a criterion either.
I'm a musician, but I don't take my own development seriously. I
was good from the time I was little, but it's not where I wanted to
live. It's not my primary or secondary focus. It's a thing.

I have very athletic friends who don't have an athletic job nor an
athletic primary hobby.

There are people who consider themselves to be musicians because they
take their development seriously and maybe even make money at music
(or try to) who aren't very good musicians. There are "serious"
athletes who spend tons of time and money on their chosen pursuit but
aren't really very talented at it.

I think musical intelligence plays out differently in different
lives, just as do the others:

http://sandradodd.com/intelligence

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

Use this link: mailto: [email protected]?subject=

On 9/15/08, Anthony Aduhene <anthony@...> wrote:
>
> How can I sign of this list please
>
> Thank you
>
> From: [email protected] <AlwaysLearning%40yahoogroups.com>[mailto:
> [email protected] <AlwaysLearning%40yahoogroups.com>]
> On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
> Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 11:26 PM
> To: [email protected] <AlwaysLearning%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] music (was unschooling and math)
>
> -=-Where is the
> line between a musician and a non-musician? Aside from the fact that
> there are people making money at music, I'm not sure there is one,
> only whether the person in question is taking their own development
> seriously.-=-
>
> I don't think "taking development seriously" is a criterion either.
> I'm a musician, but I don't take my own development seriously. I
> was good from the time I was little, but it's not where I wanted to
> live. It's not my primary or secondary focus. It's a thing.
>
> I have very athletic friends who don't have an athletic job nor an
> athletic primary hobby.
>
> There are people who consider themselves to be musicians because they
> take their development seriously and maybe even make money at music
> (or try to) who aren't very good musicians. There are "serious"
> athletes who spend tons of time and money on their chosen pursuit but
> aren't really very talented at it.
>
> I think musical intelligence plays out differently in different
> lives, just as do the others:
>
> http://sandradodd.com/intelligence
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

lifeislearning

Sandra, I think the piece in your multiple intelligences section from
Zen Lessons about the talent/capacity not being something you change
is a good point. I would say this is something unschoolers are
implementing well in letting children just be who they are and pursue
things because they want to, because they (the kids) value those
things, and whether someone else thinks they're good or bad at it
doesn't come into the equation. Our culture is very big into
"experts" and "qualifications" and unschooling is (thankfully) not,
although there's nothing to stop unschoolers from becoming really
qualified experts in their own right, for their own reasons. I think
what I meant by "is taking their development seriously" was actually
something more like "values the time and energy they give to music".
I can see why it comes across differently so that's a helpful
clarification for me. Although actually I think I was also trying to
suggest there might not be a line at all. It always comes back to
freedom, doesn't it? In this case, the freedom to pursue what you
enjoy without needing permission.

Barb

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-Where is the
> line between a musician and a non-musician? Aside from the fact that
> there are people making money at music, I'm not sure there is one,
> only whether the person in question is taking their own development
> seriously.-=-
>
>
>
> I don't think "taking development seriously" is a criterion either.
> I'm a musician, but I don't take my own development seriously. I
> was good from the time I was little, but it's not where I wanted to
> live. It's not my primary or secondary focus. It's a thing.
>
> I have very athletic friends who don't have an athletic job nor an
> athletic primary hobby.
>
>
>
> There are people who consider themselves to be musicians because they
> take their development seriously and maybe even make money at music
> (or try to) who aren't very good musicians. There are "serious"
> athletes who spend tons of time and money on their chosen pursuit but
> aren't really very talented at it.
>
> I think musical intelligence plays out differently in different
> lives, just as do the others:
>
> http://sandradodd.com/intelligences
>
>
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

k

I think
what I meant by "is taking their development seriously" was actually
something more like "values the time and energy they give to music".
I can see why it comes across differently so that's a helpful
clarification for me. Although actually I think I was also trying to
suggest there might not be a line at all. It always comes back to
freedom, doesn't it? In this case, the freedom to pursue what you
enjoy without needing permission.


Yes. Whether or not anyone considers the activity to be well executed is
separate from the enjoyment and pursuit of it. You can be a musician for 5
minutes of your life (just barely sampling a few notes here and there) or 5
decades.

~Katherine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

DaBreeze21

Thank you for this post Joyce! I thought it was a GREAT look at math
"examples" and I love how you broke it down and gave some REAL
real-life examples of math. It seems that math is an area that people
get really caught up on, even those drawn to unschooling.

This was my FAVORITE line though:

-=Don't worry, kids. Life is an open book test. If frustum *ever*
comes up in real life, someone will tell you or you'll be able to look
it up.==-

This could be a slogan for unschooling I think! "Life is an open book
test" - LOVE IT.