toy guns
Kim
I had always been staunchly opposed to any kind of play with toy guns -
even opposed to water guns. I finally had a light bulb moment ... my
reaction to toy guns were not about my kids. It stems from my own
issues. I've learned to take a step back and see what they are doing
for what it is ... simply playing. So, I'm comfortable with that now,
but I have a new issue. Most of our schooled friends are highly
opposed to guns (one won't even let her son pretend that his hand is a
gun and make shooting sounds). They tell me their feelings are because
of how the school environments are these days. I try to respect their
wishes and tell my kids that we can't do any pretend shooting when we
are with those kids; however, my younger son is not one to be
controlled (which, yes, I can see as a good thing!). We enjoy my
friend's and her son's company, but would love to have our visits be
more comfortable ... where we can just let our kids play without
interfering and telling them how to play. Does anyone have any
thoughts on the topic, or have you encountered a similar situation?
Kim
even opposed to water guns. I finally had a light bulb moment ... my
reaction to toy guns were not about my kids. It stems from my own
issues. I've learned to take a step back and see what they are doing
for what it is ... simply playing. So, I'm comfortable with that now,
but I have a new issue. Most of our schooled friends are highly
opposed to guns (one won't even let her son pretend that his hand is a
gun and make shooting sounds). They tell me their feelings are because
of how the school environments are these days. I try to respect their
wishes and tell my kids that we can't do any pretend shooting when we
are with those kids; however, my younger son is not one to be
controlled (which, yes, I can see as a good thing!). We enjoy my
friend's and her son's company, but would love to have our visits be
more comfortable ... where we can just let our kids play without
interfering and telling them how to play. Does anyone have any
thoughts on the topic, or have you encountered a similar situation?
Kim
Sandra Dodd
-=-Most of our schooled friends are highly
opposed to guns (one won't even let her son pretend that his hand is a
gun and make shooting sounds). They tell me their feelings are because
of how the school environments are these days. I try to respect their
wishes and tell my kids that we can't do any pretend shooting when we
are with those kids; however ...-=-
If even one of the other moms is receptive to other opinions, you
might pass to her these links:
http://sandradodd.com/guns
http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2000/06/violent_media.html
I was reading a book about philosophy and South Park, and one guy was
saying that pretending violence or racism (imagining being a
character in the show, or identifying with a character to see a joke
from his point of view) is no different from pretending to be a super-
hero or a good guy. (I hope my paraphrase isn't totally botching the
intent. And that made sense to me while I was reading it. <g>
Marty has played a video game called Knights of the Old Republic, a
Star Wars based game, three times, I think. You can play it as a
good guy or a bad guy, or an undecided/changeable kind of character
and it comes out differently different times. It's a morality game.
I think kids NEED that kind of play and exploration.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
opposed to guns (one won't even let her son pretend that his hand is a
gun and make shooting sounds). They tell me their feelings are because
of how the school environments are these days. I try to respect their
wishes and tell my kids that we can't do any pretend shooting when we
are with those kids; however ...-=-
If even one of the other moms is receptive to other opinions, you
might pass to her these links:
http://sandradodd.com/guns
http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2000/06/violent_media.html
I was reading a book about philosophy and South Park, and one guy was
saying that pretending violence or racism (imagining being a
character in the show, or identifying with a character to see a joke
from his point of view) is no different from pretending to be a super-
hero or a good guy. (I hope my paraphrase isn't totally botching the
intent. And that made sense to me while I was reading it. <g>
Marty has played a video game called Knights of the Old Republic, a
Star Wars based game, three times, I think. You can play it as a
good guy or a bad guy, or an undecided/changeable kind of character
and it comes out differently different times. It's a morality game.
I think kids NEED that kind of play and exploration.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
Philosophizing about morality is why Archie Bunker was such a great show and
why it was so controversial when I was a kid. We weren't allowed to watch
it. I love Good Times too. I had not realized that watching Good Times and
the Dynomite kid (what was that show called?) was a way to imagine being
African American in the US, but it's obvious that it was.
~Katherine
why it was so controversial when I was a kid. We weren't allowed to watch
it. I love Good Times too. I had not realized that watching Good Times and
the Dynomite kid (what was that show called?) was a way to imagine being
African American in the US, but it's obvious that it was.
~Katherine
On 9/11/08, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-Most of our schooled friends are highly
> opposed to guns (one won't even let her son pretend that his hand is a
> gun and make shooting sounds). They tell me their feelings are because
> of how the school environments are these days. I try to respect their
> wishes and tell my kids that we can't do any pretend shooting when we
> are with those kids; however ...-=-
>
> If even one of the other moms is receptive to other opinions, you
> might pass to her these links:
>
> http://sandradodd.com/guns
>
> http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2000/06/violent_media.html
>
> I was reading a book about philosophy and South Park, and one guy was
> saying that pretending violence or racism (imagining being a
> character in the show, or identifying with a character to see a joke
> from his point of view) is no different from pretending to be a super-
> hero or a good guy. (I hope my paraphrase isn't totally botching the
> intent. And that made sense to me while I was reading it. <g>
>
> Marty has played a video game called Knights of the Old Republic, a
> Star Wars based game, three times, I think. You can play it as a
> good guy or a bad guy, or an undecided/changeable kind of character
> and it comes out differently different times. It's a morality game.
> I think kids NEED that kind of play and exploration.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nicole Willoughby
Most of our schooled friends are highly
opposed to guns (one won't even let her son pretend that his hand is a
gun and make shooting sounds). They tell me their feelings are because
of how the school environments are these days. I try to respect their
wishes and tell my kids that we can't do any pretend shooting when we
are with those kids; however, my younger son is not one to be
controlled (which, yes, I can see as a good thing!). We enjoy my
friend's and her son's company, but would love to have our visits be
more comfortable ... where we can just let our kids play without
interfering and telling them how to play.>>>>>
Instead of telling them you cant play with guns how about making swords out of "animal balloons" or getting foam swords, or those foam blow darts, or soft play bow and arrows, or sling shots....homemade or bought, or???.........
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
opposed to guns (one won't even let her son pretend that his hand is a
gun and make shooting sounds). They tell me their feelings are because
of how the school environments are these days. I try to respect their
wishes and tell my kids that we can't do any pretend shooting when we
are with those kids; however, my younger son is not one to be
controlled (which, yes, I can see as a good thing!). We enjoy my
friend's and her son's company, but would love to have our visits be
more comfortable ... where we can just let our kids play without
interfering and telling them how to play.>>>>>
Instead of telling them you cant play with guns how about making swords out of "animal balloons" or getting foam swords, or those foam blow darts, or soft play bow and arrows, or sling shots....homemade or bought, or???.........
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Instead of telling them you cant play with guns how about making
swords out of "animal balloons" or getting foam swords, or those foam
blow darts, or soft play bow and arrows, or sling shots....homemade
or bought, or???.........-=-
What about pretending with fairy wands or pixie dust? When that mom
says something narrow-minded, you could sprinkle "smart dust" on her
and then smile blissfully (in character) and bat your eyes
expectantly while you wait to see if it works!
(Much meaner than pretending to shoot her with a gun.)
What I used to tell my boys was not to "shoot" at anyone who wasn't
playing. Only those who agreed to play were fair targets. It was
minor, but it was the same principle as "it's only fun if everybody's
having fun."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
swords out of "animal balloons" or getting foam swords, or those foam
blow darts, or soft play bow and arrows, or sling shots....homemade
or bought, or???.........-=-
What about pretending with fairy wands or pixie dust? When that mom
says something narrow-minded, you could sprinkle "smart dust" on her
and then smile blissfully (in character) and bat your eyes
expectantly while you wait to see if it works!
(Much meaner than pretending to shoot her with a gun.)
What I used to tell my boys was not to "shoot" at anyone who wasn't
playing. Only those who agreed to play were fair targets. It was
minor, but it was the same principle as "it's only fun if everybody's
having fun."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ed Wendell
That's a bit odd about the schooled children, as I had not run into people thinking it was horrible to "play with guns" until we began homeschooling - school at homers and especially the unschoolers in our group are appalled and will not let their children even have squirt guns - but they can use squirt bottles. These are the same people who are Vegans too - we just seem to be odd man out no matter where we go ;) (Our group is secular so they are not homeschooling for religious reasons)
We eat meat AND play with guns - !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is very very hard when your son's major passion IS guns of all types - he has air soft guns & BB guns, AND 99 % of the kids in our group are not allowed to touch real nor toy guns. He started out with toy guns and then cap guns - he even had a Gatling cap gun for a while - is was way cool!!!! He often mentions that it is frustrating that none of the homeschool families will let their kids be around guns. When he took a film class he made war films - he got the two that he knew were allowed to play with guns to help him reenact wars and he filmed it.
Lisa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We eat meat AND play with guns - !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is very very hard when your son's major passion IS guns of all types - he has air soft guns & BB guns, AND 99 % of the kids in our group are not allowed to touch real nor toy guns. He started out with toy guns and then cap guns - he even had a Gatling cap gun for a while - is was way cool!!!! He often mentions that it is frustrating that none of the homeschool families will let their kids be around guns. When he took a film class he made war films - he got the two that he knew were allowed to play with guns to help him reenact wars and he filmed it.
Lisa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ed Wendell
We have purchased foam swords that are made for the swimming pool the past 2 years at Toys R Us.
What I used to tell my boys was not to "shoot" at anyone who wasn't
playing. Only those who agreed to play were fair targets. It was
minor, but it was the same principle as "it's only fun if everybody's
having fun."
Sandra
This is what we did too.
Lisa W.
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
What I used to tell my boys was not to "shoot" at anyone who wasn't
playing. Only those who agreed to play were fair targets. It was
minor, but it was the same principle as "it's only fun if everybody's
having fun."
Sandra
This is what we did too.
Lisa W.
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Laureen
Heya!
On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 6:44 PM, Ed Wendell <ewendell@...> wrote:
> That's a bit odd about the schooled children, as I had not run into people thinking it was horrible to "play with guns" until we began homeschooling - school at homers and especially the unschoolers in our group are appalled and will not let their children even have squirt guns - but they can use squirt bottles. These are the same people who are Vegans too - we just seem to be odd man out no matter where we go ;) (Our group is secular so they are not homeschooling for religious reasons)
Yeah, when we ran into the "no gun play" rule the first time I was
really worried; my boys are both super into play guns. And I worried
for a bit.
Since I wanted to make it clear that guns are not for play but there
are play guns, I arranged a visit out to the NV desert, where my
stepdad is a gunsmith. He let Rowan walk around the shop, showed him
all kinds of guns, then we went out into the boonies, where stepdad
had set up a demonstration that's been really good for adults, where
you fill up gallon jugs with water and red food color, and then shoot
those. The red water goes everywhere, and makes it really easy to see
that in real life, things you shoot tend to explode, quite unlike what
they do in movies.
So there we are... and Mom realizes she's out of red coloring, but has
blue, and hey, a splash is a splash. And we set up the demo, and give
Rowan The Serious Talk About Gun Safety (tm), back him up to next to
stepdad, who proceeds to demolish the jugs, and blue water goes flying
everyplace. It's totally cool. Rowan has a very thoughtful look on his
face, and I ask if he understands that this is what happens when you
shoot living things with guns. He smiles and says "but Mama, those
were more like what happens to aliens, cause it was blue!"
Obviously the NRA's Eddie Eagle program would be more successful if it
included aliens. =P
So I don't worry about him understanding the gun thing any more.
Clearly, he gets it. =) =) So I just let him play. And everything is a
gun. The only request we make is that they not shoot at living things
or at people not playing. And that works for us.
--
~~L!
~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~
Writing here:
http://www.theexcellentadventure.com/
Evolving here:
http://www.consciouswoman.org/
~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~
Robyn L. Coburn
<<< You can play it as a
than Othello.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
> good guy or a bad guy, or an undecided/changeable kind of characterActors often love playing villains. Iago is a way more interesting character
> and it comes out differently different times. It's a morality game.
> I think kids NEED that kind of play and exploration.>>>>
than Othello.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
Sandra Dodd
-=-Actors often love playing villains. Iago is a way more interesting
character
than Othello.-=-
The first time Marty watched Othello, he turned to me halfway
through and said (with FEELING), "Iago is GENIUS!!!!!"
It seemed immoral for him to say it and for me to hear it, but I
understood what he meant. He had admiration for the cunning of the
plan, not for the morality and intent and result.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
character
than Othello.-=-
The first time Marty watched Othello, he turned to me halfway
through and said (with FEELING), "Iago is GENIUS!!!!!"
It seemed immoral for him to say it and for me to hear it, but I
understood what he meant. He had admiration for the cunning of the
plan, not for the morality and intent and result.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Sep 11, 2008, at 5:54 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
good or evil - you try to get control over the people either by
impressing them with your good acts or by impressively terrorizing them.
-pam
> Marty has played a video game called Knights of the Old Republic, a"Black and White" is a game in which you get to be God - you can be
> Star Wars based game, three times, I think. You can play it as a
> good guy or a bad guy, or an undecided/changeable kind of character
> and it comes out differently different times. It's a morality game.
> I think kids NEED that kind of play and exploration.
good or evil - you try to get control over the people either by
impressing them with your good acts or by impressively terrorizing them.
-pam
Verna
Does anyone have any
is barking out rules to your child's friend and then looking at you
to support them by you telling your kid to stop it to. I actually
heard a friend of mine tell her daughter and a group of kids she was
playing with that "Cindy is not to pretend or play SpongeBob". She
ran over to where they were to say this cause she heard someone say
something that sounded like Sponge Bob!
Anyway, back to guns. I do what others have said. I ask them not
to point them at people who are not playing. And that means me too
cause I find it disconcerting to have a toy gun pointed at me. I
also ask my kids not to take them to the park. They usually prefer
to take lightsabers anyway. I like the idea of buying a bunch of
those foam swords and just keeping them around for when certain
company comes over. Honestly, I didnt buy my kids guns for a long
time either but after watching them make them out of every material
available I realized how stupid that was.
I was just thinking of something similiar the other day. When
friends come over my kids run around doing all sorts of things.
They play video games, run around in dress up stuff, ride bikes,
play posessed babies and sometimes turn a movie on for about 10
seconds. I dont like to tell them they cant play or do certain
things.. but we have friends who like to descide what the kids can
play etc.. drives me nuts cause they think it is awful that the kids
are in their playing video games. We have a hard time finding
friends that will just sit back and relax and let the kids have fun
with each other.
> thoughts on the topic, or have you encountered a similar situation?I think one of the hardest things to deal with is when someone else
> Kim
>
is barking out rules to your child's friend and then looking at you
to support them by you telling your kid to stop it to. I actually
heard a friend of mine tell her daughter and a group of kids she was
playing with that "Cindy is not to pretend or play SpongeBob". She
ran over to where they were to say this cause she heard someone say
something that sounded like Sponge Bob!
Anyway, back to guns. I do what others have said. I ask them not
to point them at people who are not playing. And that means me too
cause I find it disconcerting to have a toy gun pointed at me. I
also ask my kids not to take them to the park. They usually prefer
to take lightsabers anyway. I like the idea of buying a bunch of
those foam swords and just keeping them around for when certain
company comes over. Honestly, I didnt buy my kids guns for a long
time either but after watching them make them out of every material
available I realized how stupid that was.
I was just thinking of something similiar the other day. When
friends come over my kids run around doing all sorts of things.
They play video games, run around in dress up stuff, ride bikes,
play posessed babies and sometimes turn a movie on for about 10
seconds. I dont like to tell them they cant play or do certain
things.. but we have friends who like to descide what the kids can
play etc.. drives me nuts cause they think it is awful that the kids
are in their playing video games. We have a hard time finding
friends that will just sit back and relax and let the kids have fun
with each other.
[email protected]
It's actually at
http://sandradodd.com/peace/guns
guns alone gets to that great "sorry" search page :)
Deb
**************
Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion
blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.
(http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
http://sandradodd.com/peace/guns
guns alone gets to that great "sorry" search page :)
Deb
**************
Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion
blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.
(http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nicole Willoughby
We have a hard time finding
friends that will just sit back and relax and let the kids have fun
with each other.>>>>>>>
I have sort of a similiar problem and have honestly started avoided going over to a lot of peoples houses.
The parents say let the kids go play and have fun so they run off then same parent gets all annoyed after they have been playing video games for 2 hours and starts to shoo them off and make them go outside and get exercise or go play in the room or whatever order they decide to give.
Then there is Nate ...6, 7 in October but mentally in the 18 month range. He loves to do things like make pictures on the wall with toothpaste. Its not cause he wants to be naughty and upset people. Toothpaste feels neat and it smells minty great and who dosent love modern art?
Many seem to feel offended about the fact that when Nate is with me i have to either keep him with me with the other adult(s) or hang out with all the kids.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
friends that will just sit back and relax and let the kids have fun
with each other.>>>>>>>
I have sort of a similiar problem and have honestly started avoided going over to a lot of peoples houses.
The parents say let the kids go play and have fun so they run off then same parent gets all annoyed after they have been playing video games for 2 hours and starts to shoo them off and make them go outside and get exercise or go play in the room or whatever order they decide to give.
Then there is Nate ...6, 7 in October but mentally in the 18 month range. He loves to do things like make pictures on the wall with toothpaste. Its not cause he wants to be naughty and upset people. Toothpaste feels neat and it smells minty great and who dosent love modern art?
Many seem to feel offended about the fact that when Nate is with me i have to either keep him with me with the other adult(s) or hang out with all the kids.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<> Then there is Nate ...6, 7 in October but mentally in the 18 month
range. He loves to do things like make pictures on the wall with toothpaste.
Its not cause he wants to be naughty and upset people. Toothpaste feels neat
and it smells minty great and who dosent love modern art?>>>
This made me think of a time when one of our old neighbors came over. He and
Jayn were I think about 5 and were standing in the tub painting with
ordinary kid acrylics on the tiled wall of the bath recess. They were having
a ball, with much giggling and squealing.
His mom came down the hall to check up on him and walked into the bathroom.
She was absolutely astounded and said, "What are you doing??!!!???"
(punctuation my interpretation of her disapproving voice). I was standing
right there in the bathroom, and BTW wasn't it obvious what they were doing?
Her son immediately started saying over and over, "She don't mind, Mom, she
don't mind....." Mom seemed pretty skeptical, but like I said, I was right
there obviously allowing and encouraging the game.
I said something about how easily it would all come off. As indeed it did,
eventually, and Jayn enjoyed that wet and messy part just as much as the
painting.
It is more respectful of the host to stay with your child if you are
concerned that they will want to do something that could be inappropriately
destructive or make the host feel uncomfortable.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
range. He loves to do things like make pictures on the wall with toothpaste.
Its not cause he wants to be naughty and upset people. Toothpaste feels neat
and it smells minty great and who dosent love modern art?>>>
This made me think of a time when one of our old neighbors came over. He and
Jayn were I think about 5 and were standing in the tub painting with
ordinary kid acrylics on the tiled wall of the bath recess. They were having
a ball, with much giggling and squealing.
His mom came down the hall to check up on him and walked into the bathroom.
She was absolutely astounded and said, "What are you doing??!!!???"
(punctuation my interpretation of her disapproving voice). I was standing
right there in the bathroom, and BTW wasn't it obvious what they were doing?
Her son immediately started saying over and over, "She don't mind, Mom, she
don't mind....." Mom seemed pretty skeptical, but like I said, I was right
there obviously allowing and encouraging the game.
I said something about how easily it would all come off. As indeed it did,
eventually, and Jayn enjoyed that wet and messy part just as much as the
painting.
It is more respectful of the host to stay with your child if you are
concerned that they will want to do something that could be inappropriately
destructive or make the host feel uncomfortable.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 11, 2008, at 10:24 PM, Robyn L. Coburn wrote:
it's because they're passionate and love what they're doing.
Kind of like unschoolers <eg>
But villains don't care how they sweep obstacles out of their way. If
someone says no to you, you get to shoot them! :-) Rules schmules. A
delicious feeling of power and control.
Though I think the more interesting villains are the ones who
maintain some code of honor. That ups their need to be clever in
their pursuit of happiness.
Hopefully unschoolers are helping their kids pursue their passions
while still being respectful of others. So we're raising respectful
villains :-)
Heroes do good out of obligation to do what's right. They do what
they're supposed to do. It's not usually personal. Sort of like the
pursuit of the American Dream: go to college, get a good job, buy a
house with white picket fence, marry and have 2 children.
Except Batman. He may not love what he's doing, but he's passionate
about getting it done. It's personal to him. And he chooses the
freedom to ignore rules if they get in his way.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Actors often love playing villains. Iago is a way more interestingI've thought about what makes villains so interesting and I concluded
> character
> than Othello.
it's because they're passionate and love what they're doing.
Kind of like unschoolers <eg>
But villains don't care how they sweep obstacles out of their way. If
someone says no to you, you get to shoot them! :-) Rules schmules. A
delicious feeling of power and control.
Though I think the more interesting villains are the ones who
maintain some code of honor. That ups their need to be clever in
their pursuit of happiness.
Hopefully unschoolers are helping their kids pursue their passions
while still being respectful of others. So we're raising respectful
villains :-)
Heroes do good out of obligation to do what's right. They do what
they're supposed to do. It's not usually personal. Sort of like the
pursuit of the American Dream: go to college, get a good job, buy a
house with white picket fence, marry and have 2 children.
Except Batman. He may not love what he's doing, but he's passionate
about getting it done. It's personal to him. And he chooses the
freedom to ignore rules if they get in his way.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kim
You can play it as a
words that I might share with my friends? I'd love it if people could
find value in kids' exploration of good guys vs. bad guys (like we did
when we played cops and robbers as kids). I just don't have a good way
of verbalizing it.
And to the rest of the group, I appreciate your comments and
suggestions on the guns topic. It's given me lots of ideas to throw
around. Personally, I still don't enjoy the gun play, but at least I
have realized that it is MY issue, not the kids'. It's thanks to all
of you that I even examined this topic in the first place!
Kim
> good guy or a bad guy, or an undecided/changeable kind of charactergame.
> and it comes out differently different times. It's a morality
> I think kids NEED that kind of play and exploration.Sandra, I get what you're saying. Can you help put that into more
>
words that I might share with my friends? I'd love it if people could
find value in kids' exploration of good guys vs. bad guys (like we did
when we played cops and robbers as kids). I just don't have a good way
of verbalizing it.
And to the rest of the group, I appreciate your comments and
suggestions on the guns topic. It's given me lots of ideas to throw
around. Personally, I still don't enjoy the gun play, but at least I
have realized that it is MY issue, not the kids'. It's thanks to all
of you that I even examined this topic in the first place!
Kim
Jenny C
> Instead of telling them you cant play with guns how about makingswords out of "animal balloons" or getting foam swords, or those foam
blow darts, or soft play bow and arrows, or sling shots....homemade or
bought, or???.........
>That's exactly what I was thinking! We have a gun of sorts that has
>
soft thingies to shoot with suction cup tips on them. We LOVE playing
with them! We can aim at things and try to get them to stick, it's more
about hitting your target than imitating "killing" someone, even though
you'd need that skill for killing someone. They are especially fun to
aim at things on the tv.
Really it's no different than playing a game of darts.
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 12, 2008, at 1:42 PM, Kim wrote:
understand it. You can run what you come up with by the people here
and we can help you tweak it.
One thought that popped into my head that scratches the surface of
the issue was to ask people why Silence of the Lambs was so popular.
Did people like it because they want to be serial murderers? Or a
hunter of serial murderers? I'm thinking neither, and yet lots of
people went to see it. Did serial murders go up after it's release?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Can you help put that into moreThe process of putting it into your own words will help you
> words that I might share with my friends?
understand it. You can run what you come up with by the people here
and we can help you tweak it.
One thought that popped into my head that scratches the surface of
the issue was to ask people why Silence of the Lambs was so popular.
Did people like it because they want to be serial murderers? Or a
hunter of serial murderers? I'm thinking neither, and yet lots of
people went to see it. Did serial murders go up after it's release?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
> I had always been staunchly opposed to any kind of play with toy guns-
> even opposed to water guns. I finally had a light bulb moment ... myHere's an excerpt from the techdirt article that someone posted the
> reaction to toy guns were not about my kids. It stems from my own
> issues. I've learned to take a step back and see what they are doing
> for what it is ... simply playing. So, I'm comfortable with that now,
> but I have a new issue.
other day...
"Violence has always been and remains a central interest of humankind
and a recurrent, even obsessive theme of culture both high and low ...
It engages the interest of children from an early age, as anyone
familiar with the classic fairy tales collected by Grimm, Andersen, and
Perrault are aware. To shield children right up to the age of 18 from
exposure to violent descriptions and images would not only be quixotic,
but deforming; it would leave them unequipped to cope with the world as
we know it."
This seems to be the fear of gun play. That kids will become violent if
they play with guns. So parents try to eliminate anything violent, to
shield their children.
Someone on another list I'm on was asking about nonviolent video games
for their young child. They were concerned with an online set of kid
games that had things such as hitting crabs with yoyo's and dropping
nuts on squirrels.
It seemed to me that it was a little overprotective and extreme. What
we actually do to crabs to eat them seems so much worse than hitting
them with a yoyo and I've had squirrels intentionally hit me with nuts.
At our very basic nature, it's eat or get eaten. When a lion downs
another animal, it is pretty violent, it's nature, we are a part of
nature. Even though we have higher thinking skills, we still have those
basic animal instincts.
Guns are an evolutionary weapon, I imagine it used to be sticks and
stones, and then more advanced weapons came along as we entered the iron
age, and then more advanced and more advanced. Guns were designed to
kill other people, but like swords and knives, they evolved for other
purposes too, hunting, survival, protection.
I know one bow hunter IRL, I know even more people who practice archery,
that have never been hunting, and have never killed a living being.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Sandra, I get what you're saying. Can you help put that into more
words that I might share with my friends?-=-
No, but you can find things online that they can read. Google links
to that thing I sent about comic books or whatever it was. Those
should then link to other similar writings.
-=-I'd love it if people could find value in kids' exploration of
good guys vs. bad guys (like we did when we played cops and robbers
as kids).-=-
People can. People do. You mean those particular people in your
playgroup?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
words that I might share with my friends?-=-
No, but you can find things online that they can read. Google links
to that thing I sent about comic books or whatever it was. Those
should then link to other similar writings.
-=-I'd love it if people could find value in kids' exploration of
good guys vs. bad guys (like we did when we played cops and robbers
as kids).-=-
People can. People do. You mean those particular people in your
playgroup?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I know one bow hunter IRL, I know even more people who practice
archery,
that have never been hunting, and have never killed a living being.-=-
Wow. My dad was a bow hunter, and I never even once pictured the
remote possibility of him aiming an arrow at a human.
He was an extremely peaceful guy, and my vision of him is of his
being very sweet and gentle.
Those who would keep a child from playing with a toy archery set or a
water gun are having WAY more violent thoughts than my dad and I had.
<g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
archery,
that have never been hunting, and have never killed a living being.-=-
Wow. My dad was a bow hunter, and I never even once pictured the
remote possibility of him aiming an arrow at a human.
He was an extremely peaceful guy, and my vision of him is of his
being very sweet and gentle.
Those who would keep a child from playing with a toy archery set or a
water gun are having WAY more violent thoughts than my dad and I had.
<g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], "Robyn L. Coburn" <dezigna@...>
wrote:
poem - in praise of Western outlaws that illustrated perfectly how bad
guys are usually way more interesting than good guys. It's a vague
recollection. Don't remember what it was called or who it was by. And
now I can't find it. Does anybody here know what it is?
I did find the Outlaw Hall of Fame:
http://www.cowboysindians.com/articles/archives/1199/film.html
Bob
wrote:
>character
> <<< You can play it as a
> > good guy or a bad guy, or an undecided/changeable kind of character
> > and it comes out differently different times. It's a morality game.
> > I think kids NEED that kind of play and exploration.>>>>
>
> Actors often love playing villains. Iago is a way more interesting
> than Othello.I remember reading online somewhere once a poem - I think it was a
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
> www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
> www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
>
poem - in praise of Western outlaws that illustrated perfectly how bad
guys are usually way more interesting than good guys. It's a vague
recollection. Don't remember what it was called or who it was by. And
now I can't find it. Does anybody here know what it is?
I did find the Outlaw Hall of Fame:
http://www.cowboysindians.com/articles/archives/1199/film.html
Bob
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], "Ed Wendell" <ewendell@...> wrote:
homeschooling - school at homers and especially the unschoolers in our
group are appalled and will not let their children even have squirt
guns - but they can use squirt bottles. These are the same people who
are Vegans too - we just seem to be odd man out no matter where we go
;) (Our group is secular so they are not homeschooling for
religious reasons)
group are not allowed to touch real nor toy guns. He started out with
toy guns and then cap guns - he even had a Gatling cap gun for a while
- is was way cool!!!! He often mentions that it is frustrating that
none of the homeschool families will let their kids be around guns.
When he took a film class he made war films - he got the two that he
knew were allowed to play with guns to help him reenact wars and he
filmed it.
boys I knew. We played Cowboys and Indians and war games a lot. When I
was in my teens, I collected replica guns. I still love guns. To me,
they're things of beauty. Does that make sense? But I've never fired a
real gun and have no interest in doing so. Not even on a firing range.
My daughter as a child, though she participated in many of the
"boyish" games - soccer and climbing things, for example - preferred
Barbie dolls and My Little Pony to toy guns. Three years ago, when she
was 20, she signed up for a stint in the Australian Army Reserve and
got to handle real guns and wear real camo. I've no idea where that
came from.
My son has a few toy guns but has only used his Super Soaker water
cannon in recent years. Neither he nor his mates have ever been that
interested in playing war games. They're all gamers. Pat can play
"shoot 'em up" videogames for hours on end and some of them are far
more realistic than anything I would have imagined playing war games
as a boy.
I'm perfectly okay with that. We've had some fascinating conversations
about the authentic depiction of real life events. Generally speaking,
I'm all for it. I would rather he saw what really happens when
somebody gets shot and know that it's not bang and you fall over,
which is as far as I got in my understanding when I was a boy.
Incidentally, my wife grew up in Belfast, Northern Ireland, at a time
when playing with a toy gun or even forming the shape of a gun with
pointing fingers was an invitation to be shot at by a British soldier.
Things that came to mind. Don't know if there's anything useful in it. :-)
I eat meat too. And watch Future Weapons with my son. It's awesome, in
the original sense of the word.
Bob
>people thinking it was horrible to "play with guns" until we began
> That's a bit odd about the schooled children, as I had not run into
homeschooling - school at homers and especially the unschoolers in our
group are appalled and will not let their children even have squirt
guns - but they can use squirt bottles. These are the same people who
are Vegans too - we just seem to be odd man out no matter where we go
;) (Our group is secular so they are not homeschooling for
religious reasons)
>types - he has air soft guns & BB guns, AND 99 % of the kids in our
> We eat meat AND play with guns - !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> It is very very hard when your son's major passion IS guns of all
group are not allowed to touch real nor toy guns. He started out with
toy guns and then cap guns - he even had a Gatling cap gun for a while
- is was way cool!!!! He often mentions that it is frustrating that
none of the homeschool families will let their kids be around guns.
When he took a film class he made war films - he got the two that he
knew were allowed to play with guns to help him reenact wars and he
filmed it.
>When I was a boy, I had an arsenal of toy guns and so did most of the
>
> Lisa
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
boys I knew. We played Cowboys and Indians and war games a lot. When I
was in my teens, I collected replica guns. I still love guns. To me,
they're things of beauty. Does that make sense? But I've never fired a
real gun and have no interest in doing so. Not even on a firing range.
My daughter as a child, though she participated in many of the
"boyish" games - soccer and climbing things, for example - preferred
Barbie dolls and My Little Pony to toy guns. Three years ago, when she
was 20, she signed up for a stint in the Australian Army Reserve and
got to handle real guns and wear real camo. I've no idea where that
came from.
My son has a few toy guns but has only used his Super Soaker water
cannon in recent years. Neither he nor his mates have ever been that
interested in playing war games. They're all gamers. Pat can play
"shoot 'em up" videogames for hours on end and some of them are far
more realistic than anything I would have imagined playing war games
as a boy.
I'm perfectly okay with that. We've had some fascinating conversations
about the authentic depiction of real life events. Generally speaking,
I'm all for it. I would rather he saw what really happens when
somebody gets shot and know that it's not bang and you fall over,
which is as far as I got in my understanding when I was a boy.
Incidentally, my wife grew up in Belfast, Northern Ireland, at a time
when playing with a toy gun or even forming the shape of a gun with
pointing fingers was an invitation to be shot at by a British soldier.
Things that came to mind. Don't know if there's anything useful in it. :-)
I eat meat too. And watch Future Weapons with my son. It's awesome, in
the original sense of the word.
Bob
Ren Allen
>way of verbalizing it.
> Sandra, I get what you're saying. Can you help put that into more
> words that I might share with my friends? I'd love it if people could
> find value in kids' exploration of good guys vs. bad guys (like we did
> when we played cops and robbers as kids). I just don't have a good
Maybe this book will help:
http://www.amazon.com/Killing-Monsters-Children-Make-Believe-Violence/dp/0465036953
Ren
duckgirl01
> "Violence has always been and remains a central interest of humankindSpeaking of Grimms, I would recommend reading Bettelheims's "The Uses
> and a recurrent, even obsessive theme of culture both high and low ...
> It engages the interest of children from an early age, as anyone
> familiar with the classic fairy tales collected by Grimm, Andersen, and
> Perrault are aware. To shield children right up to the age of 18 from
> exposure to violent descriptions and images would not only be quixotic,
> but deforming; it would leave them unequipped to cope with the world as
> we know it."
>
of Enchantment"
(http://www.amazon.com/Uses-Enchantment-Penguin-Psychology/dp/0140137270/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1221314283&sr=8-1)
I read this book a long time ago in a Children's Lit Course, and it
was very transforming regarding my understanding of children's need to
confront the concepts of good and evil, with violence and all. It
talks a lot about Grimm's fairy tales, which are quite violent in many
ways. I believe Bettelheim also talks a bit about how the watered
down Disney fairy tales do our kids a disservice in comparison to
Grimm's tales. I think Bettelheim's views would be directly
applicable to the question of toy guns.
Bettelheim also has the view that when we protect our children from
those harsh realities of good and evil, it actually hurts our
children. This is because, even when we don't discuss it with our
children, they will still *have* those "evil" ideas going through
their head. If we deny our children the opportunity to work through
the ideas, they can actually develop some guilt or self-hatred ("Why
am I thinking these violent thoughts?" "What kind of person am I?").
Again, I personally think the gun issue is applicable here, too.
Even if we shelter our children from guns by refusing them to enter
our house, our children will surely eventually become aware of their
existence. What will our children be thinking of themselves when they
want to work through the use/purpose of guns within themselves, and
when we deny them the ability to come to terms with their own feelings
on the matter?
Trish
Sandra Dodd
-=-I still love guns. To me, they're things of beauty. Does that make
sense? -=-
I understand it.
My dad had a small gun collection, and when he decided to get rid of
them, he asked me to pick one to keep, and it was 1972 and I was a
peacenik and I had never liked guns, and I said I didn't want any of
them, but thanks. I've regretted it many, many times. The one I
would have chosen was a WWI Russian infantry rifle. The fittings
were really beautiful. And I know it hurt my dad's feelings that I
rejected his hobby that way when he had been so supportive of most of
mine.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sense? -=-
I understand it.
My dad had a small gun collection, and when he decided to get rid of
them, he asked me to pick one to keep, and it was 1972 and I was a
peacenik and I had never liked guns, and I said I didn't want any of
them, but thanks. I've regretted it many, many times. The one I
would have chosen was a WWI Russian infantry rifle. The fittings
were really beautiful. And I know it hurt my dad's feelings that I
rejected his hobby that way when he had been so supportive of most of
mine.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kim
> The process of putting it into your own words will help youhere
> understand it. You can run what you come up with by the people
> and we can help you tweak it.I am thinking that because the two friends I'm most concerned about
are SO opposed to it (any kind of shooting play, both imaginary and
with toys), any suggestions will probably be rejected. I'm probably
better off asking questions. I could open the door by asking if
their objection to good guy/bad guy play is strictly because of
potential school violence, or even because of a no-tolerance policy
at school. That might give me the opening to explain that I've been
giving it a lot of thought recently and have decided to relax and
allow my kids to explore the good guy/bad guy roles. I can explain
that although I was very uncomfortable with this kind of play in the
past (and am still uncomfortable with guns in general), I find this
play to be a creative outlet, as well as a way for kids to explore
moral issues.
In the past, when my friends and I have had discussions about the
kinds of play we engaged in as kids (cops & robbers, cowboys &
indians, etc), the response always seems to be, "things are different
now." I suppose I need to ask, how are things different? We (people
in our age group) are not more violent for having played these
games. And couldn't the lack of accessibility of these toys or kinds
of play actually glamorize them, or make them seem more enticing?
I'm really not expecting to get anywhere with these two friends. I
just can't stand feeling stressed when we're playing together,
because I'm afraid my kids will use the forbidden
words: "gun," "shooting" or "bad guy." It's tough for my younger son
to *not* include this in his play. I think these two friends would
even be opposed to all of your wonderful suggestions of foam swords,
and things like that (which I think I'll get to have on hand
anyway). I guess the only way I'll know for sure is to ask, right?
Sandra Dodd
-=-Speaking of Grimms, I would recommend reading Bettelheims's "The Uses
of Enchantment"-=-
I have that book and have learned a ton from it. I recommend it to
anyone interested in fairy tales, folklore, psychology, philosophy...
Bettelheim has detractors, but it's not about his research. It's
about his treatment of children in his care (mental health research
facility). Corporal punishment, not sexual abuse at all. For some
people, they want to reject all his work because they found something
to criticize about him. For me, I think the work should stand on its
own merits. The Uses of Enchantment has some really great things
others hadn't written at all. I've loved fairy tales since I was
tiny, and so all the psychological stuff about archetypes and
morality thrills me--Jung and Bettelheim and anyone else with a story
to tell or a theory to propose.
Some people won't watch PeeWee's Playhouse because Paul Reubens
touched himself in a movie theater. I always think he was a nice guy
to go to the movies instead of whacking off at his parents' house,
where he was visiting.
Some people won't watch Michael Jackson videos from the 80's because
he had a scandal many years later. I think Thriller is one great
pile of music, no matter what Michael Jackson and Pee Wee Herman and
Bruno Bettelheim all did rolled into one crazed orgy of bad behavior.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
of Enchantment"-=-
I have that book and have learned a ton from it. I recommend it to
anyone interested in fairy tales, folklore, psychology, philosophy...
Bettelheim has detractors, but it's not about his research. It's
about his treatment of children in his care (mental health research
facility). Corporal punishment, not sexual abuse at all. For some
people, they want to reject all his work because they found something
to criticize about him. For me, I think the work should stand on its
own merits. The Uses of Enchantment has some really great things
others hadn't written at all. I've loved fairy tales since I was
tiny, and so all the psychological stuff about archetypes and
morality thrills me--Jung and Bettelheim and anyone else with a story
to tell or a theory to propose.
Some people won't watch PeeWee's Playhouse because Paul Reubens
touched himself in a movie theater. I always think he was a nice guy
to go to the movies instead of whacking off at his parents' house,
where he was visiting.
Some people won't watch Michael Jackson videos from the 80's because
he had a scandal many years later. I think Thriller is one great
pile of music, no matter what Michael Jackson and Pee Wee Herman and
Bruno Bettelheim all did rolled into one crazed orgy of bad behavior.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I suppose I need to ask, how are things different? We (people
in our age group) are not more violent for having played these
games. And couldn't the lack of accessibility of these toys or kinds
of play actually glamorize them, or make them seem more enticing?-=-
That might be exactly the thing to ask. "How are things different?"
If they're too lazy to explain, or more likely, if their arguments
are vague and their restriction is kneejerk, it's probably NOT worth
limiting their thoughtful children's exploration of the world.
And maybe ask if they had toy weapons. Water guns. Snowball fights?
How has it affected them as adults?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
in our age group) are not more violent for having played these
games. And couldn't the lack of accessibility of these toys or kinds
of play actually glamorize them, or make them seem more enticing?-=-
That might be exactly the thing to ask. "How are things different?"
If they're too lazy to explain, or more likely, if their arguments
are vague and their restriction is kneejerk, it's probably NOT worth
limiting their thoughtful children's exploration of the world.
And maybe ask if they had toy weapons. Water guns. Snowball fights?
How has it affected them as adults?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]