Sandra Dodd

The reason the AlwaysUnschooled list was created is that I objected
to people with babies saying they were unschoolers. Sometimes I feel
one way about it and sometimes I feel another, but I just found this
comment on a blog, out there, by "anonymous" and it reinforces my
feeling that it clutters up unschooling for people to say they've
done it if they give up at "school age."

"Hi�. I used to unschool our two kids but as they grew up,
particularly at age 7ish, I felt this need to provide an official
education for them - you know, reading, writing, arithmetic - and so
we homeschool now. I know a bunch of unschoolers and I�ve read a
bunch of blogs about it, and it seems like most unschooling parents
have kids that are 8 and under. I�ll be pretty curious about your
educational choices when your girls are older�. truthfully I doubt
they�ll be the same. It seems like a lot of people drop out of the
unschooling ways as their kids grow. I mean there comes a point�. are
you hear to guide your kids, or are you just going to let them figure
it all out themselves? Do you make your kids brush their teeth, or is
that a choice they get to make too? Do you let them watch hours and
hours of TV full of ads they think are truth (because they are
innocent)? When do you say no, that is not safe! ? Instread of asking
them if it feels safe. I strongly believe that kids need boundaries,
they need guidance, etc.

"That said, I did agree with a lot of your post, especially about
parenting like there is no tomorrow. And I actually do think
unschooling is a great way to learn, it�s how I learn, and when my
kids are in their teens and they have a foundation of a great
education and skills, then we will make this transition. It�s
actually a family goal, to give our kids the foundation they need to
be autodidacts."





So will that family say, in the long run, that they are unschoolers,
and that their kids were unschooled, because they unschooled before
they were seven and when they were teens? If so, how do people
distinguish between that and people who REALLY DO unschool instead of
sending their kids to school, and instead of school at home?



This is not to say that I don't think the principles of unschooling
and attachment parenting don't work with babies. That's where
attachment parenting comes from! I just don't think someone who
"lets" a baby or two year old learn naturally has a lot to brag
about, as courage and innovation go. So maybe it's that I don't like
someone saying, "Oh yes, we've unschooled for five years" and then
sending their kid to first grade.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

I can see your point, and as a mother of a 5 year old, which I try to
mention frequently for those who want to know that kind of thing, it's an
important distinction. Karl would be entering grade K if it weren't for
unschooling. Brian has begun to worry about unschooling and academics
(already!). I have been taking some steps to get more proactive, not just
so I can enrich Karl's unschooling nest with plenty of fun and happenings
for him to glean and grow from (the most important reason), but also so that
we can continue doing unschooling in the long run (a vital consideration
believe me).

Some areas that need encouragement for those who decide the fate of
unschooling in our house to keep on with it:

Sleep Routines
Okay yeh Academic Concerns
Video/Computer/TV Engagement

All the typical stuff right, and there's plenty to keep us busy in the
archives.

I just wrote in my blog about how thankful I am to Pam Sorooshian for
talking up the "guest" model for how to treat children in the home. One of
my comments is that in the predominantly anti-feminist culture that is the
Southeast and Christianity, the thought to treat our children as we would
treat our spouse doesn't resonate very much if at all in the right way.
Treating family members more like guests and learning simple courtesy is
something that we need here. *blush* It's true. We haven't learned that
kind of respect in the families we grew up in. So *now* we're in dire need
for such things. Otherwise unschooling will be a complete wash, and the
last thing I want is for Karl's childhood to be a wash. So I mean it when I
say I am working double time to learn what I need to know in order to
succeed for Karl's sake.

Thank you, Pam.

~Katherine


On 9/5/08, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> The reason the AlwaysUnschooled list was created is that I objected
> to people with babies saying they were unschoolers. Sometimes I feel
> one way about it and sometimes I feel another, but I just found this
> comment on a blog, out there, by "anonymous" and it reinforces my
> feeling that it clutters up unschooling for people to say they've
> done it if they give up at "school age."
>
> "Hi�. I used to unschool our two kids but as they grew up,
> particularly at age 7ish, I felt this need to provide an official
> education for them - you know, reading, writing, arithmetic - and so
> we homeschool now. I know a bunch of unschoolers and I've read a
> bunch of blogs about it, and it seems like most unschooling parents
> have kids that are 8 and under. I'll be pretty curious about your
> educational choices when your girls are older�. truthfully I doubt
> they'll be the same. It seems like a lot of people drop out of the
> unschooling ways as their kids grow. I mean there comes a point�. are
> you hear to guide your kids, or are you just going to let them figure
> it all out themselves? Do you make your kids brush their teeth, or is
> that a choice they get to make too? Do you let them watch hours and
> hours of TV full of ads they think are truth (because they are
> innocent)? When do you say no, that is not safe! ? Instread of asking
> them if it feels safe. I strongly believe that kids need boundaries,
> they need guidance, etc.
>
> "That said, I did agree with a lot of your post, especially about
> parenting like there is no tomorrow. And I actually do think
> unschooling is a great way to learn, it's how I learn, and when my
> kids are in their teens and they have a foundation of a great
> education and skills, then we will make this transition. It's
> actually a family goal, to give our kids the foundation they need to
> be autodidacts."
>
>
>
>
>
> So will that family say, in the long run, that they are unschoolers,
> and that their kids were unschooled, because they unschooled before
> they were seven and when they were teens? If so, how do people
> distinguish between that and people who REALLY DO unschool instead of
> sending their kids to school, and instead of school at home?
>
>
>
> This is not to say that I don't think the principles of unschooling
> and attachment parenting don't work with babies. That's where
> attachment parenting comes from! I just don't think someone who
> "lets" a baby or two year old learn naturally has a lot to brag
> about, as courage and innovation go. So maybe it's that I don't like
> someone saying, "Oh yes, we've unschooled for five years" and then
> sending their kid to first grade.
>
>
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deb Lewis

***I just found this
comment on a blog, out there, by "anonymous" and it reinforces my
feeling that it clutters up unschooling for people to say they've
done it if they give up at "school age."***

I started a post to this list a couple days ago (didn't finish yet)
and wrote, "I'm not sure we're still unschoolers." I wrote that
because Dylan is now sixteen and is past compulsory school age in our
state.

Maybe I can claim he passed his compulsory schooling.<g>

When he was little I wasn't unschooling - I wasn't *not schooling*
him - because he wasn't required to be in school. He could have
gone to Kindergarten when he was five (and he didn't) so sometimes I
count from there. But he wasn't *required* to attend school until
he was seven years old so I usually count from there. Before he
was compelled by law to be in school I don't see how I can claim "not
schooling" and have it mean anything.

The folks who've never got to the point where they were *compelled by
law* and made the choice to not comply don't have any real idea what
it means, emotionally, socially, culturally, legally or practically.

And as the mom of a now sixteen year old really unschooled kid<g> I
can say it takes some considerable more thought than parroting vague
yuck about how "kids need boundaries." Boundary talk is one of the
first indicators that person isn't doing much thinking. <g>

Deb Lewis

laura g

My 4 kids are 3 to 6 (almost 7). I think the reason more and more people think of themselves as unschoolers when their kids are not even school age is the growing tendency in this county to feel you need to purposely teach even preschool stuff. I am on a forum where several people posted pictures of their kids (3 and 4 year olds) all ready to start "preschool at home". Some people even stretch these things to gross motor skill in babies by enrolling them in baby gymnastics classes etc... So they say they are unschoolers to let people know that no they dont sit down and follow a schedule and have a curriculum for their preschoolers. But at some point they loose faith or see that in actuallity they are glad even to follow these principles as long as their kid looks "advanced" but when the kids stop learning the things they think they should be learning "like reading or skip counting" they feel a need to run to a curriculum.
At this point I dont think of myself as unschooling my kids. I just kind of think of it as getting through the day as happy as we can.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steve & Tracy Schad

I¹m in this camp. My kids are 2 and 5. We have Early Childhood and Family
Education (ECFE) here in Minnesota. The mainstream view is that we are soooo
fortunate to have these services (fee-based on a sliding scale) for our kids
and should be taking every advantage of them! ³How could you not want to
give them every opportunity?² ;P I did attend when we first moved here when
my oldest (now 5) was 1 to check it out. I was w/ her in the class. What it
was early indoctrination of rules, shuffling from one activity to another,
and preschool drilling; did I mention she was 1? Needless to say, we ended
up ECFE drop outs. It also got her registered in the district¹s system. They
called this spring out of the blue to see why we hadn¹t attended the
kindergarten open house. Um, I¹m not required to tell you anything until
compulsory age of 7 here in MN.

Outside of that, the pressure to preschool was ever-present. EVERY one of
the mainstream mommas I chatted w/ at playdates or while watching dd¹s
creative dance class, talked about their child¹s wonderful
preschool(part-time daycare) experience. Again, ³How could I not have her in
preschool?², they¹d wonder. I¹d say we were planning on homeschooling so
there was no need to prepare her for school. That got some odd looks. Then
would come the, ³Oh, I could never do that [homeschool].² Well, they may not
be able to do that. They¹ve bought into the idea that someone else has to
formally instruct their child from birth or their little one won¹t succeed.

It was only by attending homeschool park days and lists such as this and
AlwaysUnschooled that I could find people who lived what I saw as the way I
wanted us to live and do live. -- Though there was this one mother who said
she had to leave the homeschooling gathering early so she her 2 y.o. twins
could finish their homework before lunch. She was completely serious. I
certainly felt like an unschooler then. -- And I do consider us
³unschoolers² and have since I first read Holt when dd was 6wks old. Okay,
maybe at 6wks, I did say in my head we would unschool, but I can¹t clearly
say when I switched over to using the present tense; I¹m guessing during
ECFE.

Now I see it as a semantics issue, and prefer ³universal, lifelong learners²
for every member of my family. It¹s just so much more liberating to me. What
others call us doesn¹t really concern me. It used to bother me more if
someone called themselves an unschooler and it didn¹t match my definition ‹
much like if they called themselves a vegetarian but ate fish. Now, it
doesn¹t concern me so much. I just focus on my little world and what brings
us joy. I see how from a list owners perspective, though, the goal would be
to present the philosophy in as clear form as possible so newcomers aren¹t
confused.

Tracy in MN


On 9/5/08 9:52 AM, "laura g" <lalow@...> wrote:
> My 4 kids are 3 to 6 (almost 7). I think the reason more and more people
> think of themselves as unschoolers when their kids are not even school age is
> the growing tendency in this county to feel you need to purposely teach even
> preschool stuff.
> <snip>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Though there was this one mother who said
she had to leave the homeschooling gathering early so she her 2 y.o.
twins
could finish their homework before lunch. She was completely serious. I
certainly felt like an unschooler then. -- And I do consider us
³unschoolers² and have since I first read Holt when dd was 6wks old.
Okay,
maybe at 6wks, I did say in my head we would unschool, but I can¹t
clearly
say when I switched over to using the present tense; I¹m guessing during
ECFE. -=-

I do understand the arguments and justifications and the creeping
"earlierness" of schools.
I'd like for people to understand the other side, too.

When people know what they're talking about and care and are really
getting unschooling, I don't care whether they even HAVE kids. When
their posts and presence are helpful, fantastic! When someone wants
to claim "I've been unschooling for five years," I will be deeply
unimpressed (and want her to shush up about it forever) if she puts
her kids in school in K or first grade.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Brad Holcomb

>When people know what they're talking about and care and are really
>getting unschooling, I don't care whether they even HAVE kids. When
>their posts and presence are helpful, fantastic! When someone wants
>to claim "I've been unschooling for five years," I will be deeply
>unimpressed (and want her to shush up about it forever) if she puts
>her kids in school in K or first grade.


My son is 3.5. The value of calling ourselves "radical unschoolers" at this
point in time is because of the intensive deschooling my wife and I have
been doing since his birth. Beyond lack of limits on food or bedtimes or tv
or whatever, it's our mindset about life in general. Had I not had
children, I wouldn't have had the same motivation to examine my own beliefs
and principles about how fun and full life can be. Questioning everything
(especially all *rules*) and choosing our own beliefs while letting go of
our own childhood baggage has made our life more fun than I could have
imagined 4 years ago.

Unschooling, to me, is about the parents first. If parents can't deschool
themselves adequately, they're not going to be effective in helping their
children lead big fun lives.

-=b.



--
Brad in Boulder, CO
http://holcombs.org

Sandra Dodd

-=-Unschooling, to me, is about the parents first. If parents can't
deschool
themselves adequately, they're not going to be effective in helping
their
children lead big fun lives.-=-



That's a good argument. Thanks. I need to hear good arguments.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanna Murphy

> And as the mom of a now sixteen year old really unschooled kid<g> I
> can say it takes some considerable more thought than parroting vague
> yuck about how "kids need boundaries." Boundary talk is one of the
> first indicators that person isn't doing much thinking. <g>
>

I don't think that's quite fair. While I agree with your pov, when I really thought that "kids
need boundaries," I put just as much thought and study into that position as I now do into
unschooling.

It's just that unschooling actually works and creates happiness, freedom and autonomy,
whereas the path of "boundaries" leads to more dominance, tears and compliance. But
when all that was around me were authoritarian parenting models, books and lectures,
that's what I thought was right, and I thought I just needed to do it better. Sad, but true,
and full of thought and conviction. Just the wrong thoughts and the wrong convictions.

Now I have real experience with sparkling children and good relationships from which to
draw my convictions about what is right and wrong. Back in the day I had one 2 1/2 year
old with an emerging iron will that I just didn't know what to do with, and the messages
that he needed time-outs, consistency and boundaries to feel safe. We're all glad those
days are gone!

Joanna

Sandra Dodd

-=-I don't think that's quite fair. While I agree with your pov, when
I really thought that "kids
need boundaries," I put just as much thought and study into that
position as I now do into
unschooling. -=-

Maybe, but it's easily available pre-packaged and you'll get
affirmation and confirmation from parents, doctors, neighbors,
teachers, magazines, books, TV shows where parents are mean,
commercials where parents are mean...

"Kids need boundaries" isn't anything you came up with yourself after
much thought and study.

I think the original poster was talking about unschoolers. Someone
who's claiming to have been an unschooler but is talking about
boundaries hasn't done a lot of thinking about unschooling.

-=-Back in the day I had one 2 1/2 year old with an emerging iron
will that I just didn't know what to do with, and the messages that
he needed time-outs, consistency and boundaries to feel safe. -=-

It's easy to stay there and harder to step out of the boundaries the
culture is making for moms, too.



Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steve & Tracy Schad

Yes! I would agree that calling us unschoolers was mostly about me finding
my place, immersing myself in the idea, fully embracing it, and becoming
more and more confident in my stance. I can¹t imagine any other way now.

However, after reading Holt¹s ³Learning All the Time² I did become even more
adamant that I would not partake in or allow any type of preschool drill or
quizing. To allow it could have planted the seed in my dd¹s head that she
couldn¹t learn w/o someone else directing her. In our schooly and
rule-driven world, I wanted to watch myself so I could keep her intact in
trusting herself. And, yes, she is the type who would have been a grand
follower (I see her get spunkier every day, though, as she comes into
herself more and more.). So, I think unschooling does actually happen early,
not just in theory, and serve a purpose. It is more than simply attentive
parenting.

Maybe the distinction is in how one really is at their core and if they plan
to not allow themselves to choose school (or the other structures that would
fall under radical unschooling). If they truly believed and lived the
freedom while the kids were whatever age, they are unschoolers (as school
per my argument begins as early as our society says it does ‹ 6mo. here, not
by law but by availability and expectation). Still in the end, we can¹t
really control what someone is going to label and proclaim themselves to
others.

Tracy in MN

On 9/5/08 12:00 PM, "Brad Holcomb" <list.brad@...> wrote:
> Unschooling, to me, is about the parents first. If parents can't deschool
> themselves adequately, they're not going to be effective in helping their
> children lead big fun lives.
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

crzycrew6

Unschooling, to me, is about the parents first. If parents can't
deschool
themselves adequately, they're not going to be effective in helping
their
children lead big fun lives.

I second that! After all, aren't all of us beginning unschooling
since day 1 of a babies life. I wish I would have stayed on that boat
and not gone into the whole homeschooling thing. But, I was just one
of those control freak parents. I'm learning much by hanging out on
these forums though!
Cheryl in Ohio

--- In [email protected], "Brad Holcomb" <list.brad@...>
wrote:
>
>
> >When people know what they're talking about and care and are
really
> >getting unschooling, I don't care whether they even HAVE kids.
When
> >their posts and presence are helpful, fantastic! When someone
wants
> >to claim "I've been unschooling for five years," I will be deeply
> >unimpressed (and want her to shush up about it forever) if she
puts
> >her kids in school in K or first grade.
>
>
> My son is 3.5. The value of calling ourselves "radical
unschoolers" at this
> point in time is because of the intensive deschooling my wife and I
have
> been doing since his birth. Beyond lack of limits on food or
bedtimes or tv
> or whatever, it's our mindset about life in general. Had I not had
> children, I wouldn't have had the same motivation to examine my own
beliefs
> and principles about how fun and full life can be. Questioning
everything
> (especially all *rules*) and choosing our own beliefs while letting
go of
> our own childhood baggage has made our life more fun than I could
have
> imagined 4 years ago.
>
> Unschooling, to me, is about the parents first. If parents can't
deschool
> themselves adequately, they're not going to be effective in helping
their
> children lead big fun lives.
>
> -=b.
>
>
>
> --
> Brad in Boulder, CO
> http://holcombs.org
>

almadoing

In Great Britain (England, Scotland and Wales) compulsory education
begins the first term after the fifth birthday. In Northern Ireland
(the 4th part of the UK) compulsory education begins at 4.

If that isn't bad enough, from this month the government is
introducing the Early Years Foundation Stage, which is, to all
intents and purposes, a National Curriculum from *birth*. The EYFS
sets goals in various categories (including literacy and numeracy),
and assesses children on their ability to meet these goals. All
childcare providers MUST meet its terms. All childcare providers MUST
be registered with, and inspected by, Ofsted (the official body for
inspecting schools). This includes childminders who look after other
people's children in their own home.

So from now on I think it is quite legitimate here in the UK to say
that one unschools from birth!

Alison
with DS1 (6) and DS2 (3)



--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> The reason the AlwaysUnschooled list was created is that I
objected
> to people with babies saying they were unschoolers. Sometimes I
feel
> one way about it and sometimes I feel another, but I just found
this
> comment on a blog, out there, by "anonymous" and it reinforces my
> feeling that it clutters up unschooling for people to say they've
> done it if they give up at "school age."
> >
>
> This is not to say that I don't think the principles of
unschooling
> and attachment parenting don't work with babies. That's where
> attachment parenting comes from! I just don't think someone who
> "lets" a baby or two year old learn naturally has a lot to brag
> about, as courage and innovation go. So maybe it's that I don't
like
> someone saying, "Oh yes, we've unschooled for five years" and then
> sending their kid to first grade.
>
>
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Nicole Willoughby

I just kind of think of it as getting through the day as happy as we can.
>>>>>>>>>

Awesome! Mind if I steal this phrase? I have 3 in school this year for reasons I wont get into right now. I dont call myself an unschooler or even a homeschooler nor do I subscibe to you have to do your homework or go to bed at a certain time or other things ppl see as necessities .

Nicole



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

> So will that family say, in the long run, that they are unschoolers,
> and that their kids were unschooled, because they unschooled before
> they were seven and when they were teens? If so, how do people
> distinguish between that and people who REALLY DO unschool instead of
> sending their kids to school, and instead of school at home?


My own experience says that I didn't get to this place with my own
daughter yesterday or a year ago when she turned a teen. It took years
and years of practice and living this way. I think people can pull
their kids out of school at any time and start to unschool, but it won't
be the same as when you've trusted them all along. It can save kids to
pull them out, kind of like damage control, but when you've never had
the damage, you grow up more whole.

There really isn't a comparison, is there? Those inbetween years are
when all the partnership and parent/child relationship building happens,
without it, you'd have to do an awful lot of work to rebuild
relationships that could otherwise have been left whole and intact. I
don't have to focus my energy on that with my teen, we can focus on more
proactive things like what she's into and following her passions, since
all that other stuff is already in place.

Sandra Dodd

-=-In Great Britain (England, Scotland and Wales) compulsory education
begins the first term after the fifth birthday. In Northern Ireland
(the 4th part of the UK) compulsory education begins at 4.

-=-If that isn't bad enough, from this month the government is
introducing the Early Years Foundation Stage, which is, to all
intents and purposes, a National Curriculum from *birth*. The EYFS
sets goals in various categories (including literacy and numeracy),
and assesses children on their ability to meet these goals. All
childcare providers MUST meet its terms. All childcare providers MUST
be registered with, and inspected by, Ofsted (the official body for
inspecting schools). This includes childminders who look after other
people's children in their own home.

-=-So from now on I think it is quite legitimate here in the UK to say
that one unschools from birth! -=-





HOLY COW.

Here (U.S.) there's movement toward having government sponsored pre-
school for four year olds, but what you're describing is extreme.



Okay. I give. I get it.



Sandra






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deb Lewis

Preschool's been around a long time. I don't know if there was such
a thing as preschool when I was that pre-school age but I remember my
niece going to preschool and that would have been 1977 or 1978.

I remember talk from a long time ago that practically guaranteed if a
kid didn't go to the right preschool then he or she might not get
into the right college. I have no idea what the statistics are on
that...whether colleges ask what preschool you attended.

If your state mandates preschool at age three and you opt out that's
different than if your friends and neighbors think preschool's the
thing and you don't send your kid. People who think you're quirky
or even a little crazy for going against cultural norms think you're
negligent and maybe even criminal if you opt out of statutory
education.

I might still call my kid an unschooler even though he's no longer
compelled by law to go to school because he might otherwise have been
in school until he's eighteen. How long after that, though? If he
doesn't go to college can I still say "unschooler?" What if he
doesn't go on to a masters program and a Ph.D? Maybe there's a
whole group of unschooling parents out there who think my kid can't
possibly be and unschooler anymore.

I might want to say "Unschooler!" because other sixteen year old kids
who are not in school are "drop outs." But 'round here, unschooler
doesn't mean anything to anyone. <g> It only means something to
other unschoolers. Here, we'll say "homeschooled" and folks will
draw the absolutely wrong conclusion and many will still
think "quirky, crazy, negligent, criminal" but we're so used to that
after all these years we'll likely not even notice.

Maybe that's the difference. When your kids are three you think it's
a big deal to opt out of preschool and be the talk of your
neighborhood or social circle. When your kid is older and has never
been to school you realize the criticism and speculation of others
has no real power over your life and happiness.

Deb Lewis

Deb Lewis

***All childcare providers MUST
be registered with, and inspected by, Ofsted (the official body for
inspecting schools). This includes childminders who look after other
people's children in their own home.***

From what I can tell it's a standard for all child care providers but
it does not require parents to put children in preschool.

Some states here require kindergarten. I don't think any states yet
require preschool.

Deb Lewis

Joanna Murphy

> I think the original poster was talking about unschoolers. Someone
> who's claiming to have been an unschooler but is talking about
> boundaries hasn't done a lot of thinking about unschooling.
>
>
Ohhhh--I didn't get that--sorry!

Joanna

SoundHunter

Until this week I've said we planned to unschool, since kindergarten
started and we're officially registered as homeschoolers with the
government and school district, I'm comfortable saying that we *are*
unschooling Emma who is almost 5 now (her bday is in 2 weeks). I plan
to unschool my 2yr old and 2 month old, I wouldn't say that I am
unschooling them yet.
But even planning to unschool makes a big difference in how we live
with our little ones, it is *radically* different than how most people
raise their children and perhaps it needs a name of it own. I have said
I'm unpreschooling before, which seems to work if the person I'm
speaking to knows what unschooling is. That AlwaysUnschooled list is
fabulous too, I must say, I've gotten so much useful food for thought
over there with regards to parenting, and assisting with the educations
of my little ones.

~ Rachel
http://wifemothermaniac.blogspot.com/

> The reason the AlwaysUnschooled list was created is that I objected
> to people with babies saying they were unschoolers. Sometimes I
feel
> one way about it and sometimes I feel another>

Margaret

I consider myself an unschooler and I have considered myself one for
some time. DD was probably 1.5 when we discovered unschooling but it
probably took me another year or so to soak in radical unschooling and
want to do all of it. That was probably when I really started to
think of myself as an unschooler.

One reason I think that we are unschoolers is that when I decided to
be an unschooler, it changed the way I did things. We were gentle
parents to begin with, but when I decided that I wanted to unschool,
things got even better. When DD was really young, we didn't watch TV
around her and it wasn't until she was 2 that I started putting movies
on for her (all in spanish). We didn't limit it to a certain amount
of time and I don't remember saying no... but I also didn't offer it
and she was 2 so it really was a limit. I started to get more
comfortable with TV and now it is something that I don't have any
negativity about: our netflix account is largely for the kids and I
actively try to find things that they might like and introduce them
to new things (or more episodes of old favorites). I would not have
introduced them to Spongebob and they love that show. I would not
have bought them toys, puzzles or scooters with pictures of their
favorite TV characters. I would probably have pushed much much more
academically instead of trusting, helping and enjoying being with my
kids.

It didn't change much of anything that I did with DS when he was an
infant... although I didn't go nuts with alphabet letters in the bath
when he was 1.5 like I did w/dd. Unschooling ideas weren't really
relevant very early on, but they certainly started to matter well
before my kids were school aged.

As far as learning things goes, knowing that we were unschooling made
me realize that this was how my kids were going to learn things so I
got better about following up on their interests. I started doing a
better job of making books, movies, websites, trips etc. available
when they were asking questions and expressing interest in things. I
also started working harder to think of things that might be
interesting and offer them It helped me make my home richer and
happier than it would have been otherwise. I don't think we would
have our elaborate art table and wonderful projects piled up over the
house. It wouldn't have occurred to me to introduce ds to the wii and
I would not have been as excited as I am when he learned how to play.
He even beat the boss of the game he plays (which isn't meant to be a
kids game) - I love to watch him and to play with him. A friend of
mine who is pushing her son very hard academically seemed to think it
was stupid and a non-achievement.... the thought that it could have
been me looking down on this amazing stuff he is doing is really sad.

So yeah, I can see that the issues that I am dealing with are not the
same as the issues that someone with older kids deals with... but
unschooling is not just an absence of structured schooling. I'm not
just sitting her not going to preschool; I am really DOING something
here. Unschooling philosophy has been permeating our lives for
several years and what I do every day is different because of it. I
am better at it than I was when I started and I hope that by the time
my kids are old enough to be "real" unschoolers that I will be even
better at it than I am now. I think the parenting stuff that goes
with unschooling is vitally important and I don't see how academic
only unschooling can really work... if the parents are being
controlling about other aspects of the child's life do they really
think that the child isn't going to resist learning academic things
that they know their parents think are one of the few worthwhile ways
to spend their time?

In 5 years will I think that what I did w/my dd at age 3 was
unschooling? Yeah, I think I will. DD would have started
kindergarten this week so perhaps now I am officially an unschooler...
but we are doing the same things that we were two weeks ago so it
seems rather silly to me to say that two weeks ago I wasn't
unschooling but now I am.

Margaret
(dd 5, ds 2.5)

On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 6:24 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> The reason the AlwaysUnschooled list was created is that I objected
> to people with babies saying they were unschoolers. Sometimes I feel
> one way about it and sometimes I feel another, but I just found this
> comment on a blog, out there, by "anonymous" and it reinforces my
> feeling that it clutters up unschooling for people to say they've
> done it if they give up at "school age."
>
> "Hi…. I used to unschool our two kids but as they grew up,
> particularly at age 7ish, I felt this need to provide an official
> education for them - you know, reading, writing, arithmetic - and so
> we homeschool now. I know a bunch of unschoolers and I've read a
> bunch of blogs about it, and it seems like most unschooling parents
> have kids that are 8 and under. I'll be pretty curious about your
> educational choices when your girls are older…. truthfully I doubt
> they'll be the same. It seems like a lot of people drop out of the
> unschooling ways as their kids grow. I mean there comes a point…. are
> you hear to guide your kids, or are you just going to let them figure
> it all out themselves? Do you make your kids brush their teeth, or is
> that a choice they get to make too? Do you let them watch hours and
> hours of TV full of ads they think are truth (because they are
> innocent)? When do you say no, that is not safe! ? Instread of asking
> them if it feels safe. I strongly believe that kids need boundaries,
> they need guidance, etc.
>
> "That said, I did agree with a lot of your post, especially about
> parenting like there is no tomorrow. And I actually do think
> unschooling is a great way to learn, it's how I learn, and when my
> kids are in their teens and they have a foundation of a great
> education and skills, then we will make this transition. It's
> actually a family goal, to give our kids the foundation they need to
> be autodidacts."
>
>
>
>
>
> So will that family say, in the long run, that they are unschoolers,
> and that their kids were unschooled, because they unschooled before
> they were seven and when they were teens? If so, how do people
> distinguish between that and people who REALLY DO unschool instead of
> sending their kids to school, and instead of school at home?
>
>
>
> This is not to say that I don't think the principles of unschooling
> and attachment parenting don't work with babies. That's where
> attachment parenting comes from! I just don't think someone who
> "lets" a baby or two year old learn naturally has a lot to brag
> about, as courage and innovation go. So maybe it's that I don't like
> someone saying, "Oh yes, we've unschooled for five years" and then
> sending their kid to first grade.
>
>
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Nancy Wooton

On Sep 5, 2008, at 11:52 PM, Margaret wrote:

> In 5 years will I think that what I did w/my dd at age 3 was
> unschooling? Yeah, I think I will. DD would have started
> kindergarten this week so perhaps now I am officially an unschooler...
> but we are doing the same things that we were two weeks ago so it
> seems rather silly to me to say that two weeks ago I wasn't
> unschooling but now I am.


Personally, I make a distinction between unschooling and
homeschooling. Unschooling permeates all of a family's life, of
parents as well as children; it's a philosophy more than an
educational method. Homeschooling, on the other hand, is how we
describe following our government's statues for keeping our children
home instead of sending them to school. My now 21-y.o. daughter will
say she was homeschooled, but sometimes adds the detail, "we
unschool." Both she and her brother are now unschooling college <g>

Nancy

Ed Wendell

In Missouri the compulsorary age is 7. So for record keeping homeschoolers have to by law begin keeping records at age 7 - though most people (not the homeschoolers) send their kids to day care from birth (well maybe more like 2 weeks of age) then possibly pre-school then to Kindergarten ...........etc.

My school district has what they call Universal Pre-school that is available to all 3 & 4 year olds - this is the second year it has been available. It is not mandatory but it is free and is an all day program - parent can drop off at 7 AM and pick up at 6 PM. Some daycares closed their doors when we implemented this last year due to loss of enrollment. They seem to think this will solve our district's problem of meeting the national rules for No Child Left Behind / Adequate Yearly Progress - and don't even get me started on the stupidness that says that by a certain year (which is fast approaching) 100% of the children will be scoring 100% which is impossible - unless we help them make little hankies I guess. I wonder what Washington will come up with when the top districts in the nation do not make compliance???? Us poor inner city districts don't stand a chance.

We've even added 50 minutes to the instructional time for all students in the district - grrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Why do most people think that earlier and earlier is the solution to the "problem"? Or more and more and more? Someone should tell them that less can often times be more :) It seems to me that the more we make them go to school the

I did not even have kindergarten available when I went to school in 1968 in Illinois - I started with first grade, had mixed grade levels because we were such a small school, stayed in the same school through 8th grade and did just fine. ;)

Lisa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Sep 5, 2008, at 11:52 PM, Margaret wrote:

> Unschooling philosophy has been permeating our lives for
> several years and what I do every day is different because of it.

My kids are "beyond" unschooling age, if we define it as "no schooling
at home or anywhere else, when schooling is legally required."

Roya is 23 and I am clearly not unschooling her - meaning "I" am not
any longer immersed in providing her with a rich environment and "I"
no longer feel responsible for supporting her interests and expanding
on her interests and offering her new opportunities and possibilities.
Her life is so much more separate from mine, now, that it would seem
ludicrous for me to say I am her unschooling parent. We're very close.
I talk to her pretty much every day, see her more than once a week,
spend a lot of fun time together and I'm the first person she talks to
about any concerns, problems, etc. But, still, she's an adult living
her own life - I'm not unschooling her.

My second child is about to turn 21 and I'm still her unschooling
parent. She lives at home, she's very mature. But I'm still an
unschooling parent in heart and mind with her. I'm still providing her
with a stimulating environment. I'm still offering her opportunities
to explore her interests and to expand on her interests. She's still
"there" in my unschooling parent's head.

My third is 17 and could have left school, legally, by now. But, in
her case, there is no doubt that we're still unschooling. There is
also no doubt that we're reaching the end of it, though. The signs are
there.

HOWEVER, my kids all three (including the 23 yo) call themselves
unschoolers. They say that they are very aware of a big difference
between themselves and other (schooled) people in their outlook on
life, their sense of themselves, their entire approach and
understanding of how learning happens. They say they are different
because of unschooling and "once an unschooler always an unschooler."

They have a completely different interpretation of the word - not as
something that is being "done," but as a way they "are."

-pam

Sandra Dodd

-=-wouldn't have occurred to me to introduce ds to the wii and
I would not have been as excited as I am when he learned how to play.
He even beat the boss of the game he plays (which isn't meant to be a
kids game) - I love to watch him and to play with him. A friend of
mine who is pushing her son very hard academically seemed to think it
was stupid and a non-achievement.... the thought that it could have
been me looking down on this amazing stuff he is doing is really sad.-=-

Very persuasive and good. I relent.
Thanks.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-. So maybe it's that I don't like
>
> someone saying, "Oh yes, we've unschooled for five years" and then
> sending their kid to first grade.
> -=-

I guess I need to see that as not so different as saying "we
unschooled for five years and then sent our kids to fifth grade." If
the parents are deciding unschooling isn't working, I figure
unschooling wasn't working at their house, so they weren't really
very good at it in the first place.

Those who can get good at it when their kids are very young and be
all full of momentum and confidence with a five year old.

Sandra

Schuyler

----------snip------
Why do most people think that earlier and earlier is the solution to the "problem"?  Or more and more and more?  Someone should tell them that less can often times be more :) 
-----------
I think a big part of why more and more is happening is about letting both parents work, or in a single parent household, the parent work. Pre-school daycare can be quite expensive and in the UK that is why they now are introducing these measures for assessing daycares. You assess a school by it's product which is an educated child. You assess education with testing. So you test infants and toddlers at daycare.
I'm lucky and I'm willing to take the hit, I don't work. We live without my income. If we needed my income I would work really, really hard to find ways to earn money while still having Simon and Linnaea at home. But I balk the system in that regard. For most people being able to put your children in state-funded daycare is a very good thing. I suppose having a school open to earlier age children takes away some of the stigma of not paying for childcare, using welfare based childcare. Maybe not. It probably, also, helps those who are marginally not on welfare.

------snip--------
I did not even have kindergarten available when I went to school in 1968 in Illinois - I started with first grade, had mixed grade levels because we were such a small school, stayed in the same school through 8th grade and did just fine. ;)
-----------------
The economy was very different in 1968. In 1968, the year I was born, my mom didn't work. She went to school fulltime when I was 5, so 1973. My next door neighbor, who was a nurse, but was also around a lot of the time, so must not have been working, babysat for me until second grade, when I think mom was at home more and taking the bus to and from school delayed my homecoming long enough for me not to be home alone much. And even so, I went to preschool for 2 years before school. I can distinctly remember 3 different locations for the preschools, so maybe even 3 years of preschool, or 1 year of daycare and 2 years of preschool.
It isn't about you doing fine with less school. I think it is more about balancing the needs of so many people being in the workforce. It is not seen as a public good to have mothers or fathers be at home with their children during their childhood. There is lots of lovely data demonstrating that having a parent at home is a really good thing for children, but the data doesn't have the same impact as the GDP does, I imagine. And, of course, there is also data demonstrating that children in early learning programs are more precocious. Of course being precocial is not necessarily a good thing, but it looks good to achieve learning landmarks early. Certainly when you are testing for outcome.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Personally, I make a distinction between unschooling and
homeschooling. Unschooling permeates all of a family's life, of
parents as well as children; it's a philosophy more than an
educational method. Homeschooling, on the other hand, is how we
describe following our government's statues for keeping our children
home instead of sending them to school. My now 21-y.o. daughter will
say she was homeschooled, but sometimes adds the detail, "we
unschool." Both she and her brother are now unschooling college <g>-=-



I can nod and say yes to all that but then what of a family that
doesn't unschool and also homeschool (keep their kids home instead of
sending them to state or private school)? Are they unschooling and
schooling?



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-don't even get me started on the stupidness that says that by a
certain year (which is fast approaching) 100% of the children will be
scoring 100% which is impossible - unless we help them make little
hankies I guess.-=-

If they can't read, cheat-note hankies won't help. 100% of the
*Normal* children will be scoring high enough. Those who don't score
will be labelled with a disability.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nancy Wooton

On Sep 6, 2008, at 10:04 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> -=-Personally, I make a distinction between unschooling and
> homeschooling. Unschooling permeates all of a family's life, of
> parents as well as children; it's a philosophy more than an
> educational method. Homeschooling, on the other hand, is how we
> describe following our government's statues for keeping our children
> home instead of sending them to school. My now 21-y.o. daughter will
> say she was homeschooled, but sometimes adds the detail, "we
> unschool." Both she and her brother are now unschooling college <g>-=-
>
>
>
> I can nod and say yes to all that but then what of a family that
> doesn't unschool and also homeschool (keep their kids home instead of
> sending them to state or private school)? Are they unschooling and
> schooling?
>


They're homeschooling. It's up to them if they want to define it
further, perhaps identifying with a homeschool charter school, a
correspondence school, call themselves "eclectic" or whatever. I'm no
longer homeschooling; I won't file my private school affidavit with
the state of California this year, as my kids have "graduated." We're
still unschoolers. My kids are taking 6 units each, in classes
they're interested in at a community college, with little regard for
accruing credits toward a particular major. Unschool to... Un-
iversity. ;-)

Nancy