Re: [AlwaysLearning] When a child worries
Cameron Parham
My 11 yo dd sat beside me on her bed 2 nights ago and with tears in her eyes shared her fears about her reading progress. She said that she knows I'm not worried. She knows some kids don't read until later than age 11. She remembers Kathleen Gherke saying that a child she knew read at age 14, but with a wobbly voice says, "what if I don't even learn then?" I just listened to her, and stroked her hair. Just as she was saying that she feels "Even Burke is better at it than me (he's 9), Burke came into her room and she wouldn't say more. Can anyone comment on how to help her, to support her? She is a smart and perceptive person and knows so much of why we have chosen the unschooling path, and she wants to continue with it. But how can I support and encourage her specifically about this? Thanks so much.... Cameron
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Clare Kirkpatrick
I'm a bit confused...it sounds like your daughter wants to learn to read and
I'm wondering what's stopping her. What's stopping her doing a reading
scheme or playing on a website like www.starfall.com ? It doesn't matter if
it seems schooly if it's what she wants, does it? If she wants to learn to
read, then she'll probably do it fairly quickly with the right support? Or
have I misunderstood your message?
My DD1 wanted to learn to read (she's 5 now) so we got her, with her help,
early reader books, which she ploughed through very quickly. She hated
reading scheme books as they're so boring, but she loved the starfall
website, and also a UK website which you may be able to get access to from
the US - education city. She wasn't interested in phonics, but has learnt
quickly and easily the 'whole words' way. She had no confidence at first
(we think she was comparing herself to us (her parents) only as she's the
oldest) so we decided together to do a reading age test as I knew she knew
more than she thought she did and she came out 2 years older than she
actually is, which gave her the confidence to really go for it. I don't
consider this to be not unschooling because it was all on her terms - we
just supported her and provided her with whatever she needed, sometimes
suggesting things she may not have been aware of, and sometimes getting her
stuff she'd seen that she asked for.
BWs
Clare
x
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Cameron Parham
Sent: 22 August 2008 19:41
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] When a child worries
My 11 yo dd sat beside me on her bed 2 nights ago and with tears in her eyes
shared her fears about her reading progress. She said that she knows I'm
not worried. She knows some kids don't read until later than age 11. She
remembers Kathleen Gherke saying that a child she knew read at age 14, but
with a wobbly voice says, "what if I don't even learn then?" I just
listened to her, and stroked her hair. Just as she was saying that she
feels "Even Burke is better at it than me (he's 9), Burke came into her room
and she wouldn't say more. Can anyone comment on how to help her, to
support her? She is a smart and perceptive person and knows so much of why
we have chosen the unschooling path, and she wants to continue with it. But
how can I support and encourage her specifically about this? Thanks so
much.... Cameron
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm wondering what's stopping her. What's stopping her doing a reading
scheme or playing on a website like www.starfall.com ? It doesn't matter if
it seems schooly if it's what she wants, does it? If she wants to learn to
read, then she'll probably do it fairly quickly with the right support? Or
have I misunderstood your message?
My DD1 wanted to learn to read (she's 5 now) so we got her, with her help,
early reader books, which she ploughed through very quickly. She hated
reading scheme books as they're so boring, but she loved the starfall
website, and also a UK website which you may be able to get access to from
the US - education city. She wasn't interested in phonics, but has learnt
quickly and easily the 'whole words' way. She had no confidence at first
(we think she was comparing herself to us (her parents) only as she's the
oldest) so we decided together to do a reading age test as I knew she knew
more than she thought she did and she came out 2 years older than she
actually is, which gave her the confidence to really go for it. I don't
consider this to be not unschooling because it was all on her terms - we
just supported her and provided her with whatever she needed, sometimes
suggesting things she may not have been aware of, and sometimes getting her
stuff she'd seen that she asked for.
BWs
Clare
x
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Cameron Parham
Sent: 22 August 2008 19:41
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] When a child worries
My 11 yo dd sat beside me on her bed 2 nights ago and with tears in her eyes
shared her fears about her reading progress. She said that she knows I'm
not worried. She knows some kids don't read until later than age 11. She
remembers Kathleen Gherke saying that a child she knew read at age 14, but
with a wobbly voice says, "what if I don't even learn then?" I just
listened to her, and stroked her hair. Just as she was saying that she
feels "Even Burke is better at it than me (he's 9), Burke came into her room
and she wouldn't say more. Can anyone comment on how to help her, to
support her? She is a smart and perceptive person and knows so much of why
we have chosen the unschooling path, and she wants to continue with it. But
how can I support and encourage her specifically about this? Thanks so
much.... Cameron
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
When Holly was that age she wanted me to help her, so I got a copy of
some workbookish system called 100 Easy Lessons something or other.
I bought one used. She felt better just owning it. I thought it was
goofy, for having different colors of letters, and some system I
didn't fell like learning. We went through some of the pages of
three letter words, just reading down and finding some she knew, or
me reading a few of them (not "working" and not whole pages, just
kinda looking into the book).
We didn't do much with it, but I think her seeing that it involved
comparisons and repetition helped her somehow to understand it.
What about a game where you label lots of things in the house with
sticky notes or something? Just put up dozens to hundreds of words?
(IF she's having fun, not if it bugs her.) And maybe (IF she thought
it would be fun) you could put some in the wrong places and see if
she could put them back (or just leave them in the wrong places--that
wouldn't hurt her.)
Sandra
some workbookish system called 100 Easy Lessons something or other.
I bought one used. She felt better just owning it. I thought it was
goofy, for having different colors of letters, and some system I
didn't fell like learning. We went through some of the pages of
three letter words, just reading down and finding some she knew, or
me reading a few of them (not "working" and not whole pages, just
kinda looking into the book).
We didn't do much with it, but I think her seeing that it involved
comparisons and repetition helped her somehow to understand it.
What about a game where you label lots of things in the house with
sticky notes or something? Just put up dozens to hundreds of words?
(IF she's having fun, not if it bugs her.) And maybe (IF she thought
it would be fun) you could put some in the wrong places and see if
she could put them back (or just leave them in the wrong places--that
wouldn't hurt her.)
Sandra
Pamela Sorooshian
Here is something someone else wrote on another list and my response.
I wrote something else about the benefits of later reading, but can't
find it right now. I'll keep looking.
*****
why later reading is very very cool. Kids who read later (who aren't
shamed and aren't feeling pressured TO read), are more immersed in a
hearing, listening, oral world and it shows. The kids I know who read
later are amazingly good at grasping and remembering stuff they hear!
One kid I know, who began to read at 12 or 13 years old, took one of
my college econ classes at 17 years old. He sat in class, never took
notes, remembered EVERY single thing from my lectures and aced all the
tests. Remarkable!
-pam
I wrote something else about the benefits of later reading, but can't
find it right now. I'll keep looking.
*****
> One result of this is that even though my degrees are in literatureI love the way you put it. This is
> and creative writing, I have really tried to give both my kids space
> to develop oral skills before they get swept up into print. I
> actually think it's more important to talk to children constantly and
> tell stories than to read to them! Reading, as far as I can tell,
> will take care of itself, since reading skills can be learned at any
> time with no loss of ability (as far as I know, a person who learns
> to read at 50 can read just as well as someone who learns to read at
> 5 - there are no benefits mentally speaking to learning to read
> sooner rather than later, no developmental "window" during which
> reading can more easily be learned).
why later reading is very very cool. Kids who read later (who aren't
shamed and aren't feeling pressured TO read), are more immersed in a
hearing, listening, oral world and it shows. The kids I know who read
later are amazingly good at grasping and remembering stuff they hear!
One kid I know, who began to read at 12 or 13 years old, took one of
my college econ classes at 17 years old. He sat in class, never took
notes, remembered EVERY single thing from my lectures and aced all the
tests. Remarkable!
-pam
On Aug 22, 2008, at 11:40 AM, Cameron Parham wrote:
> But how can I support and encourage her specifically about this?
> Thanks so much.... Cameron
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heather
*When my daughter was about 8, she mentioned wanting to go to school a few
times.
After talking to her, I found out she thought she wouldn't learn to read
unless she went to school. I assured her that she could learn to read
without school, that some of her schooled-friends didn't know how to read
yet.
She decided she wanted reading "lessons". We played school sometimes.
I also found the book "Teach your child to read in 100 easy lessons"
from the library. I personally couldn't stand the book, so it didn't get
used much.
Then I found** another book at the library...
"Reading reflex : the foolproof phono-graphix method for teaching your child
to read"
It was much easier for me to read & use. It has some 'learn-to-read" type
games that my
daughter really enjoyed. We just pulled it out when she requested it.
**It ended up getting abandoned.
**We also checked out a lot of the kits at the library with the book and
cassette so
she could read along in the car.
heather
tucson
*On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 4:34 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
times.
After talking to her, I found out she thought she wouldn't learn to read
unless she went to school. I assured her that she could learn to read
without school, that some of her schooled-friends didn't know how to read
yet.
She decided she wanted reading "lessons". We played school sometimes.
I also found the book "Teach your child to read in 100 easy lessons"
from the library. I personally couldn't stand the book, so it didn't get
used much.
Then I found** another book at the library...
"Reading reflex : the foolproof phono-graphix method for teaching your child
to read"
It was much easier for me to read & use. It has some 'learn-to-read" type
games that my
daughter really enjoyed. We just pulled it out when she requested it.
**It ended up getting abandoned.
**We also checked out a lot of the kits at the library with the book and
cassette so
she could read along in the car.
heather
tucson
*On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 4:34 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> When Holly was that age she wanted me to help her, so I got a copy of[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> some workbookish system called 100 Easy Lessons something or other.
> I bought one used. She felt better just owning it.
>
kstjonn
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
The
directions were something we ignored and she basically just sat
beside
me on the couch and read the bolded words over and over. I made a
list
of the words as she read them and printed it out. "You know how to
read
these words" made her feel confident enough that we only got a third
of
the way through the book. She just seemed to need a boost.
I also played word family games with her. I also made some word
family
cards where she could put consonants in front of "at" and "in" and
such
in order to make words.
At the same time as this was happening, she was reading words on Zoo
Tycoon and
Spyro. Then she started reading the subtitles on DVDs. Then she
went
on to read chapter books.
It took "longer" than I expected. with my expecations based on my
faulty thinking about reading. Each year, I'd think, "Ok. She can
recognize these words. She'll be reading within a few months." Then a
few months would go by and I'd say, "ok, so NOW she'll start
reading." I thought that she'd go from sight
memorization right to reading chapter books and comprehending all of
it
on an equal level. My school-influenced idea of reading and what was
actually occuring were vastly different. It happened in stages,
stages she was able to
control and manage herself, in her own time and comfort level.
Kara
>of
> When Holly was that age she wanted me to help her, so I got a copy
> some workbookish system called 100 Easy Lessons something orother.
> I bought one used. She felt better just owning it. I thought itwas
> goofy, for having different colors of letters, and some system Ior
> didn't fell like learning. We went through some of the pages of
> three letter words, just reading down and finding some she knew,
> me reading a few of them (not "working" and not whole pages, justThis is one thing I did too when Sophia was asking about reading.
> kinda looking into the book).
>
> We didn't do much with it, but I think her seeing that it involved
> comparisons and repetition helped her somehow to understand it.
>
The
directions were something we ignored and she basically just sat
beside
me on the couch and read the bolded words over and over. I made a
list
of the words as she read them and printed it out. "You know how to
read
these words" made her feel confident enough that we only got a third
of
the way through the book. She just seemed to need a boost.
I also played word family games with her. I also made some word
family
cards where she could put consonants in front of "at" and "in" and
such
in order to make words.
At the same time as this was happening, she was reading words on Zoo
Tycoon and
Spyro. Then she started reading the subtitles on DVDs. Then she
went
on to read chapter books.
It took "longer" than I expected. with my expecations based on my
faulty thinking about reading. Each year, I'd think, "Ok. She can
recognize these words. She'll be reading within a few months." Then a
few months would go by and I'd say, "ok, so NOW she'll start
reading." I thought that she'd go from sight
memorization right to reading chapter books and comprehending all of
it
on an equal level. My school-influenced idea of reading and what was
actually occuring were vastly different. It happened in stages,
stages she was able to
control and manage herself, in her own time and comfort level.
Kara
k
Karl has been asking about reading. And we looked at starfall for a while
together. He was happy to read through a bunch of it. Some of the stories
he liked. I think what he got out of it is understanding that he really did
know a lot more than he thought he did. Which I knew but he wanted to know.
~Katherine
together. He was happy to read through a bunch of it. Some of the stories
he liked. I think what he got out of it is understanding that he really did
know a lot more than he thought he did. Which I knew but he wanted to know.
~Katherine
On 8/22/08, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> When Holly was that age she wanted me to help her, so I got a copy of
> some workbookish system called 100 Easy Lessons something or other.
> I bought one used. She felt better just owning it. I thought it was
> goofy, for having different colors of letters, and some system I
> didn't fell like learning. We went through some of the pages of
> three letter words, just reading down and finding some she knew, or
> me reading a few of them (not "working" and not whole pages, just
> kinda looking into the book).
>
> We didn't do much with it, but I think her seeing that it involved
> comparisons and repetition helped her somehow to understand it.
>
> What about a game where you label lots of things in the house with
> sticky notes or something? Just put up dozens to hundreds of words?
> (IF she's having fun, not if it bugs her.) And maybe (IF she thought
> it would be fun) you could put some in the wrong places and see if
> she could put them back (or just leave them in the wrong places--that
> wouldn't hurt her.)
>
> Sandra
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-The kids I know who read
later are amazingly good at grasping and remembering stuff they hear!-=-
Holly started reading with a large vocabulary, and she knew what the
words sounded like, so she didn't have many "reader's pronunciation"
problems.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
later are amazingly good at grasping and remembering stuff they hear!-=-
Holly started reading with a large vocabulary, and she knew what the
words sounded like, so she didn't have many "reader's pronunciation"
problems.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
have you read "better late than early" ???someone on line was discussing it ?***sim'aria***??
-----Original Message-----
From: Clare Kirkpatrick <clare.kirkpatrick@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 3:58 pm
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] When a child worries
I'm a bit confused...it sounds like your daughter wants to learn to read and
I'm wondering what's stopping her. What's stopping her doing a reading
scheme or playing on a website like www.starfall.com ? It doesn't matter if
it seems schooly if it's what she wants, does it? If she wants to learn to
read, then she'll probably do it fairly quickly with the right support? Or
have I misunderstood your message?
My DD1 wanted to learn to read (she's 5 now) so we got her, with her help,
early reader books, which she ploughed through very quickly. She hated
reading scheme books as they're so boring, but she loved the starfall
website, and also a UK website which you may be able to get access to from
the US - education city. She wasn't interested in phonics, but has learnt
quickly and easily the 'whole words' way. She had no confidence at first
(we think she was comparing herself to us (her parents) only as she's the
oldest) so we decided together to do a reading age test as I knew she knew
more than she thought she did and she came out 2 years older than she
actually is, which gave her the confidence to really go for it. I don't
consider this to be not unschooling because it was all on her terms - we
just supported her and provided her with whatever she needed, sometimes
suggesting things she may not have been aware of, and sometimes getting her
stuff she'd seen that she asked for.
BWs
Clare
x
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Cameron Parham
Sent: 22 August 2008 19:41
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] When a child worries
My 11 yo dd sat beside me on her bed 2 nights ago and with tears in her eyes
shared her fears about her reading progress.? She said that she knows I'm
not worried.? She knows some kids don't read until later than age 11.??She
remembers Kathleen Gherke saying that a child she knew read at age 14, but
with a wobbly voice says, "what if I don't even learn then?"? I just
listened to her, and stroked her hair.? Just as she was saying that she
feels "Even Burke is better at it than me (he's 9), Burke came into her room
and she wouldn't say more.? Can anyone comment on how to help her, to
support her?? She is a smart and perceptive person and knows so much of why
we have chosen the unschooling?path, and she wants to continue with it.? But
how can I support and encourage her specifically about this?? Thanks so
much.... Cameron???
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-----Original Message-----
From: Clare Kirkpatrick <clare.kirkpatrick@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 3:58 pm
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] When a child worries
I'm a bit confused...it sounds like your daughter wants to learn to read and
I'm wondering what's stopping her. What's stopping her doing a reading
scheme or playing on a website like www.starfall.com ? It doesn't matter if
it seems schooly if it's what she wants, does it? If she wants to learn to
read, then she'll probably do it fairly quickly with the right support? Or
have I misunderstood your message?
My DD1 wanted to learn to read (she's 5 now) so we got her, with her help,
early reader books, which she ploughed through very quickly. She hated
reading scheme books as they're so boring, but she loved the starfall
website, and also a UK website which you may be able to get access to from
the US - education city. She wasn't interested in phonics, but has learnt
quickly and easily the 'whole words' way. She had no confidence at first
(we think she was comparing herself to us (her parents) only as she's the
oldest) so we decided together to do a reading age test as I knew she knew
more than she thought she did and she came out 2 years older than she
actually is, which gave her the confidence to really go for it. I don't
consider this to be not unschooling because it was all on her terms - we
just supported her and provided her with whatever she needed, sometimes
suggesting things she may not have been aware of, and sometimes getting her
stuff she'd seen that she asked for.
BWs
Clare
x
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Cameron Parham
Sent: 22 August 2008 19:41
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] When a child worries
My 11 yo dd sat beside me on her bed 2 nights ago and with tears in her eyes
shared her fears about her reading progress.? She said that she knows I'm
not worried.? She knows some kids don't read until later than age 11.??She
remembers Kathleen Gherke saying that a child she knew read at age 14, but
with a wobbly voice says, "what if I don't even learn then?"? I just
listened to her, and stroked her hair.? Just as she was saying that she
feels "Even Burke is better at it than me (he's 9), Burke came into her room
and she wouldn't say more.? Can anyone comment on how to help her, to
support her?? She is a smart and perceptive person and knows so much of why
we have chosen the unschooling?path, and she wants to continue with it.? But
how can I support and encourage her specifically about this?? Thanks so
much.... Cameron???
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Clare Kirkpatrick
I think the main point is that the child learns when they want to, whether
that's early or late. I have to say I don't like the thought that children
who have a passion for books could be held back from learning to read
because someone's read somewhere that later readers have this, that or the
other benefit. Early readers have a lot of benefits too - like being able
to spend years and years reading amazing stories. It's the pressure that's
wrong, not the age IMO. My oldest two are very, very different children.
One learnt her alphabet at 2.5y and is now a nearly fluent reader at 5 with
no 'teaching' or anything - just lots and lots of books being read to her,
as requested, and the odd game on the computer etc. as requested. My second
only knows the first letter of her name at age 3.5. She loves books,
though, and always wants to be read to. But she's far more 'creative' (can
never remember which side of the brain it is!) than her older sister and
will spend literally hours on a painting or something similar. There is
need in society for people who are more immersed int he hearing, listening,
oral world *and* people who are more immersed in the details of literacy and
numeracy and the important thing is letting each child develop their own
interests, in their own time without pressure or undue influence to either
do things later or earlier.
Clare
x
why later reading is very very cool. Kids who read later (who aren't
shamed and aren't feeling pressured TO read), are more immersed in a
hearing, listening, oral world and it shows. The kids I know who read
later are amazingly good at grasping and remembering stuff they hear!
One kid I know, who began to read at 12 or 13 years old, took one of
my college econ classes at 17 years old. He sat in class, never took
notes, remembered EVERY single thing from my lectures and aced all the
tests. Remarkable!
-pam
that's early or late. I have to say I don't like the thought that children
who have a passion for books could be held back from learning to read
because someone's read somewhere that later readers have this, that or the
other benefit. Early readers have a lot of benefits too - like being able
to spend years and years reading amazing stories. It's the pressure that's
wrong, not the age IMO. My oldest two are very, very different children.
One learnt her alphabet at 2.5y and is now a nearly fluent reader at 5 with
no 'teaching' or anything - just lots and lots of books being read to her,
as requested, and the odd game on the computer etc. as requested. My second
only knows the first letter of her name at age 3.5. She loves books,
though, and always wants to be read to. But she's far more 'creative' (can
never remember which side of the brain it is!) than her older sister and
will spend literally hours on a painting or something similar. There is
need in society for people who are more immersed int he hearing, listening,
oral world *and* people who are more immersed in the details of literacy and
numeracy and the important thing is letting each child develop their own
interests, in their own time without pressure or undue influence to either
do things later or earlier.
Clare
x
> One result of this is that even though my degrees are in literatureI love the way you put it. This is
> and creative writing, I have really tried to give both my kids space
> to develop oral skills before they get swept up into print. I
> actually think it's more important to talk to children constantly and
> tell stories than to read to them! Reading, as far as I can tell,
> will take care of itself, since reading skills can be learned at any
> time with no loss of ability (as far as I know, a person who learns
> to read at 50 can read just as well as someone who learns to read at
> 5 - there are no benefits mentally speaking to learning to read
> sooner rather than later, no developmental "window" during which
> reading can more easily be learned).
why later reading is very very cool. Kids who read later (who aren't
shamed and aren't feeling pressured TO read), are more immersed in a
hearing, listening, oral world and it shows. The kids I know who read
later are amazingly good at grasping and remembering stuff they hear!
One kid I know, who began to read at 12 or 13 years old, took one of
my college econ classes at 17 years old. He sat in class, never took
notes, remembered EVERY single thing from my lectures and aced all the
tests. Remarkable!
-pam
Pamela Sorooshian
On Aug 22, 2008, at 11:00 PM, Clare Kirkpatrick wrote:
Everyone ASSUMES that early readers are advantaged. There's no need to
defend that. One of my daughters read fluently at 3 years old and was
reading pretty much anything and everything by 5 years old. She was
tested by the school and maxed out their test at the 11th grade level.
Not a single person ever doubted that she was benefitting from all the
reading she did when she was still very young. And now she's a college
student and considering a major in either linguistics, comparative
literature, or theater.
But, when kids read later, people assume they are missing out on
something. They don't consider that there are benefits to later
reading because kids who aren't reading aren't vegetating - they are
learning.
-pam
> I have to say I don't like the thought that childrenAs opposed to having all those amazing stories read to them?
> who have a passion for books could be held back from learning to read
> because someone's read somewhere that later readers have this, that
> or the
> other benefit. Early readers have a lot of benefits too - like
> being able
> to spend years and years reading amazing stories.
Everyone ASSUMES that early readers are advantaged. There's no need to
defend that. One of my daughters read fluently at 3 years old and was
reading pretty much anything and everything by 5 years old. She was
tested by the school and maxed out their test at the 11th grade level.
Not a single person ever doubted that she was benefitting from all the
reading she did when she was still very young. And now she's a college
student and considering a major in either linguistics, comparative
literature, or theater.
But, when kids read later, people assume they are missing out on
something. They don't consider that there are benefits to later
reading because kids who aren't reading aren't vegetating - they are
learning.
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=-I have to say I don't like the thought that children
No one is recommending holding anyone back from learning to read.
No one can make anyone learn to read. You can press them to
phonetically sound out each work, which can hamper fluent reading.
You can try to teach them to learn to read before they're ready so
that they hate words, books and you.
Yesterday Joyce Fetteroll and her daughter Kathryn and I went to the
Unser Racing Museum (not sure the exact name of it), a nice new
museum in Albuquerque.
There were two men there in their thirties, VERY interested in the
place, knowledgeable, and sometimes one would read aloud to the other
from one of the display boards, enthusiastically but haltingly, very
phonetically until he would recognize the name of a race track or a
race. That's not the kind of reading Kathryn Fetteroll was doing.
She could silently scan the words and take meaning. She didn't need
to sound words out.
I have no doubt that those nice men are halting readers because
school told them very early on that they weren't reading, that they
weren't readers. They believed that the school knew how to teach
reading, and they believed the school that they just were somehow not
bright enough to do it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> who have a passion for books could be held back from learning toread-=-
No one is recommending holding anyone back from learning to read.
No one can make anyone learn to read. You can press them to
phonetically sound out each work, which can hamper fluent reading.
You can try to teach them to learn to read before they're ready so
that they hate words, books and you.
Yesterday Joyce Fetteroll and her daughter Kathryn and I went to the
Unser Racing Museum (not sure the exact name of it), a nice new
museum in Albuquerque.
There were two men there in their thirties, VERY interested in the
place, knowledgeable, and sometimes one would read aloud to the other
from one of the display boards, enthusiastically but haltingly, very
phonetically until he would recognize the name of a race track or a
race. That's not the kind of reading Kathryn Fetteroll was doing.
She could silently scan the words and take meaning. She didn't need
to sound words out.
I have no doubt that those nice men are halting readers because
school told them very early on that they weren't reading, that they
weren't readers. They believed that the school knew how to teach
reading, and they believed the school that they just were somehow not
bright enough to do it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna Wilkinson
>I had the same experience. I kept expecting my son Jack to hit a place
> It took "longer" than I expected. with my expecations based on my
> faulty thinking about reading. Each year, I'd think, "Ok. She can
> recognize these words. She'll be reading within a few months." Then a
> few months would go by and I'd say, "ok, so NOW she'll start
> reading." I thought that she'd go from sight
> memorization right to reading chapter books and comprehending all of
> it
> on an equal level. My school-influenced idea of reading and what was
> actually occuring were vastly different. It happened in stages,
> stages she was able to
> control and manage herself, in her own time and comfort level.
>
> Kara
>
in his reading and just take off. It's been slow and steady all
along. He didn't have the slightest interest in reading at age 8. He
is now almost 12 and can mostly read. It's still slow and he has
trouble with some words, but he can figure a lot out on his own now.
He mostly reads for gaming. My dd Jamie is 9 and reads almost as well
as Jack. But, she's played around with letters and spelling since she
was 4 or 5. She started reading a Junie B. Jones chapter book by
herself this summer and needs help with bigger words, but impressed me
with how much she can read. She seems to be doing the "take off" thing.
Jack has an amazing memory and attention to detail. We listen to books
on tape in the car a lot, and what he grasps and remembers really
facintates me. I'm not like him at all that way.
Joanna W.
Sandra Dodd
-=-I think the main point is that the child learns when they want to,
whether that's early or late.-=-
A child can want to learn to read and not be developmentally ready to
do so.
Unless a child is traumatized and afraid and ashamed, you'll know
when he can read because he'll be reading.
Before he's reading, there's not much you can do but keep reading to
him, play games with sounds and words if he likes that, let him watch
movies, go to plays, listen to music--keep his environment word-
filled, and the reading will come.
-=-. There is
need in society for people who are more immersed int he hearing,
listening,
oral world *and* people who are more immersed in the details of
literacy and
numeracy and the important thing is letting each child develop their own
interests, in their own time without pressure or undue influence to
either
do things later or earlier.
-=-
No one is recommending keeping kids from learning.
Sandra
whether that's early or late.-=-
A child can want to learn to read and not be developmentally ready to
do so.
Unless a child is traumatized and afraid and ashamed, you'll know
when he can read because he'll be reading.
Before he's reading, there's not much you can do but keep reading to
him, play games with sounds and words if he likes that, let him watch
movies, go to plays, listen to music--keep his environment word-
filled, and the reading will come.
-=-. There is
need in society for people who are more immersed int he hearing,
listening,
oral world *and* people who are more immersed in the details of
literacy and
numeracy and the important thing is letting each child develop their own
interests, in their own time without pressure or undue influence to
either
do things later or earlier.
-=-
No one is recommending keeping kids from learning.
Sandra
Verna
This past summer my son J descided he should learn to read. His
brother is 5 and can read quite well cause he just can and I think
that intimidated J a little bit. After exploring the whole thing a
little with him though I learned several things.. he wanted nothing to
do with "baby books" or books written specifically for beginning
readers. He wanted nothing to do with repetive practice like
worksheets or 100 easy lessons or anything like that but I did go with
him to the store and we bought several books that he thought looked
good like Captain Underpants and some of other Dav Pilkey books and we
read them together. Mostly I read but sometimes he would want to read
a little. Now we are back to my mostly reading but he feels better
about being on his way to learning to read. I think he can see his
own progress in that directions and so he feels better about it
again. He has asked me before if he would learn more if he was in
school. I think other kids say things like that because schooled kids
are repeatedly told that in order to learn and not grow up to be a bum
they have to go to school.
brother is 5 and can read quite well cause he just can and I think
that intimidated J a little bit. After exploring the whole thing a
little with him though I learned several things.. he wanted nothing to
do with "baby books" or books written specifically for beginning
readers. He wanted nothing to do with repetive practice like
worksheets or 100 easy lessons or anything like that but I did go with
him to the store and we bought several books that he thought looked
good like Captain Underpants and some of other Dav Pilkey books and we
read them together. Mostly I read but sometimes he would want to read
a little. Now we are back to my mostly reading but he feels better
about being on his way to learning to read. I think he can see his
own progress in that directions and so he feels better about it
again. He has asked me before if he would learn more if he was in
school. I think other kids say things like that because schooled kids
are repeatedly told that in order to learn and not grow up to be a bum
they have to go to school.
Clare Kirkpatrick
"A child can want to learn to read and not be developmentally ready to
do so."
And a parent who is in tune with his/her children having paid attention to
them and respected them and the way they want/need to learn will be able to
pick up when things are going too fast for the child and help support them
to slow down a bit. This is one of the things that gets me about school -
the parents who say 'what's wrong with my child? He keeps wetting the bed.
It's not school because he loves it there' - of course it's school! It's
too much for him. Don't we all love some things that aren't good for us
either physically or emotionally?
"Before he's reading, there's not much you can do but keep reading to
him, play games with sounds and words if he likes that, let him watch
movies, go to plays, listen to music--keep his environment word-
filled, and the reading will come."
Sandra, you say 'there's not much you can do but...' but what you've
mentioned is a lot and would be a lot of help to parents whose children want
to learn to read but are unsure how to support them. We've never sat down
with our 5yo and said 'right, let's do some learning to read', partly
because I don't believe in doing things that way, but partly because she
puts the brakes on the minute we overstep the mark in this respect!
However, when she said she wanted to learn to read, we just said 'well keep
on doing what you're doing, because you are learning - you can see you're
learning because of all the words you recognise'. What she was doing, off
her own back, was looking at books on her own, or with her sister (a *lot*
of time spent on this - often I'd hear that silence that usually makes you
go 'ok...what on earth are they up to now? Is my bathroom going to be
flooded or something awful like that?', I'd tentatively go upstairs and find
them both sitting in bed looking at books! For an hour or so!), doing
workbooks for five or ten minutes at a time - they love them but DD1 is like
a butterfly and apart from spending time looking at books, doesn't stick at
anything else for very long!, playing on the computer, talking about words,
singing songs, etc - all the things you mention. Rather than making
'learning to read' a thing in itself, instead it's been very much the way
she learned to talk - an absorption of the skills needed, in her own time
and in her own way and on her own terms.
"-=-. There is
need in society for people who are more immersed int he hearing,
listening,
oral world *and* people who are more immersed in the details of
literacy and
numeracy and the important thing is letting each child develop their own
interests, in their own time without pressure or undue influence to
either
do things later or earlier.
-=-
No one is recommending keeping kids from learning."
No, I understand that. I think I feel a bit of pressure sometimes coming
from fellow HEors (in the UK, not on this list) who follow Steiner methods
because DD1 is very young to learn to read autonomously and, being parent
who is passionate about autonomy in childhood, often feel the need to
impress on these people that I didn't teach her to read and she wasn't
hothoused - she just doesn't fit the Steiner ideal of children being
creative for the first 7 years of their lives - it's not who she is.
Clare
do so."
And a parent who is in tune with his/her children having paid attention to
them and respected them and the way they want/need to learn will be able to
pick up when things are going too fast for the child and help support them
to slow down a bit. This is one of the things that gets me about school -
the parents who say 'what's wrong with my child? He keeps wetting the bed.
It's not school because he loves it there' - of course it's school! It's
too much for him. Don't we all love some things that aren't good for us
either physically or emotionally?
"Before he's reading, there's not much you can do but keep reading to
him, play games with sounds and words if he likes that, let him watch
movies, go to plays, listen to music--keep his environment word-
filled, and the reading will come."
Sandra, you say 'there's not much you can do but...' but what you've
mentioned is a lot and would be a lot of help to parents whose children want
to learn to read but are unsure how to support them. We've never sat down
with our 5yo and said 'right, let's do some learning to read', partly
because I don't believe in doing things that way, but partly because she
puts the brakes on the minute we overstep the mark in this respect!
However, when she said she wanted to learn to read, we just said 'well keep
on doing what you're doing, because you are learning - you can see you're
learning because of all the words you recognise'. What she was doing, off
her own back, was looking at books on her own, or with her sister (a *lot*
of time spent on this - often I'd hear that silence that usually makes you
go 'ok...what on earth are they up to now? Is my bathroom going to be
flooded or something awful like that?', I'd tentatively go upstairs and find
them both sitting in bed looking at books! For an hour or so!), doing
workbooks for five or ten minutes at a time - they love them but DD1 is like
a butterfly and apart from spending time looking at books, doesn't stick at
anything else for very long!, playing on the computer, talking about words,
singing songs, etc - all the things you mention. Rather than making
'learning to read' a thing in itself, instead it's been very much the way
she learned to talk - an absorption of the skills needed, in her own time
and in her own way and on her own terms.
"-=-. There is
need in society for people who are more immersed int he hearing,
listening,
oral world *and* people who are more immersed in the details of
literacy and
numeracy and the important thing is letting each child develop their own
interests, in their own time without pressure or undue influence to
either
do things later or earlier.
-=-
No one is recommending keeping kids from learning."
No, I understand that. I think I feel a bit of pressure sometimes coming
from fellow HEors (in the UK, not on this list) who follow Steiner methods
because DD1 is very young to learn to read autonomously and, being parent
who is passionate about autonomy in childhood, often feel the need to
impress on these people that I didn't teach her to read and she wasn't
hothoused - she just doesn't fit the Steiner ideal of children being
creative for the first 7 years of their lives - it's not who she is.
Clare
cloggsy_sk
--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
stopped reading to her now that she can read. I loved being read to
well into my adulthood, and still love audio books etc. I'd never
dream of stopping offering to read to my children or refusing to do
so just because they can read themselves.
Clare
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>read
>
> On Aug 22, 2008, at 11:00 PM, Clare Kirkpatrick wrote:
>
> > I have to say I don't like the thought that children
> > who have a passion for books could be held back from learning to
> > because someone's read somewhere that later readers have this,that
> > or theNo, not opposed to that at all - alongside that. I haven't suddenly
> > other benefit. Early readers have a lot of benefits too - like
> > being able
> > to spend years and years reading amazing stories.
>
> As opposed to having all those amazing stories read to them?
stopped reading to her now that she can read. I loved being read to
well into my adulthood, and still love audio books etc. I'd never
dream of stopping offering to read to my children or refusing to do
so just because they can read themselves.
Clare
Pamela Sorooshian
On Aug 23, 2008, at 11:16 PM, cloggsy_sk wrote:
Late readers can spend years and years listening to amazing stories -
they don't miss out on that "benefit" by reading later. Some of the
most "well-read" young adults I know were much later readers.
The biggest benefit of early reading is that it makes schooling
easier. But we're not schooling, so that isn't a benefit in our
families.
I almost never read books - I listen to audible books on my ipod nano.
I had to learn to listen - there was most definitely a learning curve.
But now I much prefer to listen and I choose my listening material
based at least partially on the narrator's ratings.
-pam
>>> I have to say I don't like the thought that childrenI think the point was missed.
>>> who have a passion for books could be held back from learning to
> read
>>> because someone's read somewhere that later readers have this,
> that
>>> or the
>>> other benefit. Early readers have a lot of benefits too - like
>>> being able
>>> to spend years and years reading amazing stories.
>>
>> As opposed to having all those amazing stories read to them?
>
> No, not opposed to that at all - alongside that
Late readers can spend years and years listening to amazing stories -
they don't miss out on that "benefit" by reading later. Some of the
most "well-read" young adults I know were much later readers.
The biggest benefit of early reading is that it makes schooling
easier. But we're not schooling, so that isn't a benefit in our
families.
I almost never read books - I listen to audible books on my ipod nano.
I had to learn to listen - there was most definitely a learning curve.
But now I much prefer to listen and I choose my listening material
based at least partially on the narrator's ratings.
-pam
Joyce Fetteroll
--- In [email protected], "Clare Kirkpatrick" <clare.kirkpatrick@...> wrote:
desire, they probably can't speed development along.
And I say probably because we can't really know. We *can* be certain teaching to read doesn't work, otherwise the schools wouldn't be
having problems. Whether reading to them, playing word games and so on speeds development a little (because the child's making
connections) is impossible to say. It doesn't influence development in a large way, otherwise there wouldn't be unschooling kids in print rich
atmospheres who don't read until their teens.
A child may desire to ride a bike, but unless they're developmentally ready for the coordination and everything else needed, they can't. Does
riding a bike with training wheels help them be ready sooner? Once they're developmentally ready, will having ridden with training wheels
for a year or two get them upright quicker? Maybe. Who knows. But I'm betting there isn't a huge difference.
Oh, I do have an anecdote. When Kat was 3 or 4, Carl held a Tae Kwon Do class for little kids. Just a fun thing. Nothing rigorous. Kat did the
classes for a year but she wasn't all that coordinated. She'd go through the motions of punching and kicking but she looked awkward. (Other
kids her age were more coordinated, though not all.) It wasn't until several years later, without further lessons, that she was playfully
kicking and it actually looked coordinated and like a Tae Kwon Do kick.
So, kids can pick up knowledge without being able to use it. But imposing that knowledge against the child's desire -- as schools do with
trying to make them learn to read -- can be a good way to turn them off of something. What good would learning to punch as a 3 yo do if
Kat had hated the process? Will she find Tae Kwon Do easier if she takes it up again? I don't know, but the ease wouldn't be worth the
struggle of imposing it on her (since it would also run the risk of turning her off).
So, do things because they're fun, not because you think it will lead somewhere. Expose them to lots of stuff. Keep doing the stuff they
enjoy. Drop the stuff they don't. (It's so obvious, written out that way ;-)
Joyce
> Sandra, you say 'there's not much you can do but...' but what you'veWhat's helpful to understand when faced with helping a child learn what they aren't ready to learn is that while a parent can support a child's
> mentioned is a lot and would be a lot of help to parents whose children want
> to learn to read but are unsure how to support them.
desire, they probably can't speed development along.
And I say probably because we can't really know. We *can* be certain teaching to read doesn't work, otherwise the schools wouldn't be
having problems. Whether reading to them, playing word games and so on speeds development a little (because the child's making
connections) is impossible to say. It doesn't influence development in a large way, otherwise there wouldn't be unschooling kids in print rich
atmospheres who don't read until their teens.
A child may desire to ride a bike, but unless they're developmentally ready for the coordination and everything else needed, they can't. Does
riding a bike with training wheels help them be ready sooner? Once they're developmentally ready, will having ridden with training wheels
for a year or two get them upright quicker? Maybe. Who knows. But I'm betting there isn't a huge difference.
Oh, I do have an anecdote. When Kat was 3 or 4, Carl held a Tae Kwon Do class for little kids. Just a fun thing. Nothing rigorous. Kat did the
classes for a year but she wasn't all that coordinated. She'd go through the motions of punching and kicking but she looked awkward. (Other
kids her age were more coordinated, though not all.) It wasn't until several years later, without further lessons, that she was playfully
kicking and it actually looked coordinated and like a Tae Kwon Do kick.
So, kids can pick up knowledge without being able to use it. But imposing that knowledge against the child's desire -- as schools do with
trying to make them learn to read -- can be a good way to turn them off of something. What good would learning to punch as a 3 yo do if
Kat had hated the process? Will she find Tae Kwon Do easier if she takes it up again? I don't know, but the ease wouldn't be worth the
struggle of imposing it on her (since it would also run the risk of turning her off).
So, do things because they're fun, not because you think it will lead somewhere. Expose them to lots of stuff. Keep doing the stuff they
enjoy. Drop the stuff they don't. (It's so obvious, written out that way ;-)
Joyce
Sandra Dodd
> Sandra, you say 'there's not much you can do but...' but what you'vechildren want
> mentioned is a lot and would be a lot of help to parents whose
> to learn to read but are unsure how to support them.Joyce has already responded really well, but I want to add that I'm
not here so much to help parents as I am to help children.
If your child wants to learn to read, assure her that she will. Then
keep the world happy and peaceful and instead of arranging your
expectations in schoolish terms ("she will learn to read by the time
she's seven," or "he will learn multiplication first and then
division"), find ways to think of it natural learning terms ("she
will pick this up naturally as time goes by, just from being in a
stimulating, peaceful environment").
It seems at the moment you're focusing on what you to think about
what I can do to help a lot of parents support their children who
want to learn to read.
What I would like to focus on is how children learn to read in their
own ways, easily, when they're ready and able, if and when people
stop trying to teach them.
People learn many very difficult things naturally. Perhaps we don't
see them as "difficult" when we KNOW for sure they are learned
naturally. Walking. Understanding speech. Speaking. Jumping.
Climbing. Singing.
If we lead children to believe that reading must be "taught" (even by
using phrases such as "she taught herself"), they will think other
things have to be "taught" too. But if a child learns to read on
his own, he will *know* that he can learn other things on his own.
http://sandradodd.com/r/deeper
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~`Joyce has already responded really well, but I want to add that I'm
not here so much to help parents as I am to help children.~~
I know what you're saying here...but, by helping the parents it IS
helping the children.:)
Ren
not here so much to help parents as I am to help children.~~
I know what you're saying here...but, by helping the parents it IS
helping the children.:)
Ren
Clare Kirkpatrick
">>> I have to say I don't like the thought that children
Late readers can spend years and years listening to amazing stories -
they don't miss out on that "benefit" by reading later. Some of the
most "well-read" young adults I know were much later readers."
Apologies! However, I personally *love* getting engrossed in a book and
can't switch off enough to sleep if I don't read beforehand. I also enjoy
sharing books. For anyone who does enjoy reading books to themselves, it's
a benefit to do it young...and I would assume that those who do learn to
read young are likely to be people who are going to enjoy reading books to
themselves. It's a lovely way to be by yourself, but not lonely or bored.
I can quite understand that not everyone loves it, but for those that do,
then how many more years of that joy you'll get if you are an early reader?!
"The biggest benefit of early reading is that it makes schooling
easier. But we're not schooling, so that isn't a benefit in our
families."
This is certainly why schooled children need to read young, but only if they
go to conventional schools. It's not the biggest benefit, though, for
children who don't go to school - it's an irrelevant benefit!
Clare
>>> who have a passion for books could be held back from learning toI think the point was missed.
> read
>>> because someone's read somewhere that later readers have this,
> that
>>> or the
>>> other benefit. Early readers have a lot of benefits too - like
>>> being able
>>> to spend years and years reading amazing stories.
>>
>> As opposed to having all those amazing stories read to them?
>
> No, not opposed to that at all - alongside that
Late readers can spend years and years listening to amazing stories -
they don't miss out on that "benefit" by reading later. Some of the
most "well-read" young adults I know were much later readers."
Apologies! However, I personally *love* getting engrossed in a book and
can't switch off enough to sleep if I don't read beforehand. I also enjoy
sharing books. For anyone who does enjoy reading books to themselves, it's
a benefit to do it young...and I would assume that those who do learn to
read young are likely to be people who are going to enjoy reading books to
themselves. It's a lovely way to be by yourself, but not lonely or bored.
I can quite understand that not everyone loves it, but for those that do,
then how many more years of that joy you'll get if you are an early reader?!
"The biggest benefit of early reading is that it makes schooling
easier. But we're not schooling, so that isn't a benefit in our
families."
This is certainly why schooled children need to read young, but only if they
go to conventional schools. It's not the biggest benefit, though, for
children who don't go to school - it's an irrelevant benefit!
Clare
Clare Kirkpatrick
"`Joyce has already responded really well, but I want to add that I'm
not here so much to help parents as I am to help children.~~
I know what you're saying here...but, by helping the parents it IS
helping the children.:)
Ren"
I agree...if a parent is new (or not!) to unschooling, surely it's helpful
to the child to say to the parent 'keep their environment word-rich and
they'll learn when they're ready to'. It's scary being a parent and nice to
know that you're not denying the opportunities a child needs to learn when
they want/are ready to about anything. If you're child wans't learning to
read because you had no books in your house and no computer - no access to
words - that's holding them back. Ensuring they have the opportunity to
access what they need, and knowing what that might be, if and when they need
it is a good thing...isn't it? And letting parents know what that might be,
and reassuring them that children *will* learn unless you ban anything with
words on is also a good thing...isn't it? Children will automatically
benefit from parents who feel they're doing the right thing (or at least not
doing the wrong thing) and who have relaxed about their concerns about the
child not learning to read by a certain age?
Clare
not here so much to help parents as I am to help children.~~
I know what you're saying here...but, by helping the parents it IS
helping the children.:)
Ren"
I agree...if a parent is new (or not!) to unschooling, surely it's helpful
to the child to say to the parent 'keep their environment word-rich and
they'll learn when they're ready to'. It's scary being a parent and nice to
know that you're not denying the opportunities a child needs to learn when
they want/are ready to about anything. If you're child wans't learning to
read because you had no books in your house and no computer - no access to
words - that's holding them back. Ensuring they have the opportunity to
access what they need, and knowing what that might be, if and when they need
it is a good thing...isn't it? And letting parents know what that might be,
and reassuring them that children *will* learn unless you ban anything with
words on is also a good thing...isn't it? Children will automatically
benefit from parents who feel they're doing the right thing (or at least not
doing the wrong thing) and who have relaxed about their concerns about the
child not learning to read by a certain age?
Clare
Ren Allen
~~I can quite understand that not everyone loves it, but for those
that do, then how many more years of that joy you'll get if you are an
early reader?!~~
It's not going to matter!
Whether someone loves reading for pleasure or not, it doesn't matter
if they read early or late. YOu seem to be equating early reading with
more pleasure. That just doesn't hold true in an unschooling family.
I have one that learned to read at 12 and one that at 11 is just
getting into reading to herself. She's gotten enjoyment from being
read to for many years and now enjoys reading to herself. Who cares
what form the reading pleasure came in? Who cares what age it started?
Peace and joy happen best when natural tendencies are allowed to flow.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
that do, then how many more years of that joy you'll get if you are an
early reader?!~~
It's not going to matter!
Whether someone loves reading for pleasure or not, it doesn't matter
if they read early or late. YOu seem to be equating early reading with
more pleasure. That just doesn't hold true in an unschooling family.
I have one that learned to read at 12 and one that at 11 is just
getting into reading to herself. She's gotten enjoyment from being
read to for many years and now enjoys reading to herself. Who cares
what form the reading pleasure came in? Who cares what age it started?
Peace and joy happen best when natural tendencies are allowed to flow.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Schuyler
"If you're child wans't learning to
read because you had no books in your house and no computer - no access to
words - that's holding them back."
It isn't holding them back if you live in a world without computers or books. In that world reading is a luxury good that may not help you to gain the skills you need to live life. Lots of people have had lives without reading. Lots of history is about people without books or computers. Now, this lifetime, there are parts of the world without books or computers. David (dh) interviewed Mayans in Belize who didn't have much schooling, and were illiterate, but knew what they needed to for getting the most money that they could for the produce that they grew and sold. Lots of people, including those living in the U.S. or the UK or wherever, don't need to read to get the things that they want out of life. The interesting thing to David was that the people he met in Belize where perfectly capable of reading what they needed to read when they needed to read it, no matter what their age at first reading was. And none of the people he interviewed had reading
material beyond the textbooks that their children used for school and for some, maybe, a bible.
I'm not being as clear as I would like. My feeling is that if you live in a community without books and computers, for whatever reason, accessing those things is a way to get yourself excluded from that community. Or, at least, for the reading to be really useful, really applicable to your life, you would have to leave that community and find another. Not that I live in such a world. But many people do, not by choice, but by necessity.
Simon, my 11 year old son, is not reading yet. He has books and computers that fill our house and his life. I read to him, although not a lot these days, there just aren't books he wants to hear. He gets books on cd, I think being able to control when they start and stop is much more satisfying than having me read. For a long time I worried, very occasionally I still worry, but I know, and, more importantly, he knows, that reading will happen when it happens. Until then, I'm not waiting or moaning, more than that I am utterly impressed with the things that he sees based on not reading. He listens so much more intently than I do, I've read all of the Harry Potter books, he's listened to them, and he knows them better. If I'd listened to them I'd have to learn how, as Pam said she needed to do, I'd have to figure out how to stop my mind chattering so much so that I could hear Stephen Fry or Jim Dale reading to me. I would remember far less than he does. He
does that a lot, hears or sees a cue that I didn't see or hear. I did that when we lived in Japan and were completely illiterate. David would get the staff at the university to write out some of the Kanji that we needed to recognize for the bus to get home and the rest we had to figure out on our own. I still can't read or speak Japanese, but we had a full and wonderful life that year.
Also, I don't read a lot these days. I used to read almost all the time. I would have many books on the go and would forgo many other things to read them. When I had Simon and Linnaea being present was more important than reading and my reading began to wane. Reading, it seems, was about filling the empty spaces, and when I had children I had fewer of those. My reading is beginning to rise again. I am reading a bit more now than I did last year, but my life is still more interesting than other people's literary view of life. I'm not dismissing reading, but I do think that it is less valuable than it is often considered. Linnaea, my daughter, read at 6. She likes being able to read. But she doesn't read many books. Mostly it is about comics on the toilet, or quests on WoW. For books, she likes to snuggle up in bed at night and have me read to her. And Simon doesn't have any sense of less than by not reading as early as she did.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
read because you had no books in your house and no computer - no access to
words - that's holding them back."
It isn't holding them back if you live in a world without computers or books. In that world reading is a luxury good that may not help you to gain the skills you need to live life. Lots of people have had lives without reading. Lots of history is about people without books or computers. Now, this lifetime, there are parts of the world without books or computers. David (dh) interviewed Mayans in Belize who didn't have much schooling, and were illiterate, but knew what they needed to for getting the most money that they could for the produce that they grew and sold. Lots of people, including those living in the U.S. or the UK or wherever, don't need to read to get the things that they want out of life. The interesting thing to David was that the people he met in Belize where perfectly capable of reading what they needed to read when they needed to read it, no matter what their age at first reading was. And none of the people he interviewed had reading
material beyond the textbooks that their children used for school and for some, maybe, a bible.
I'm not being as clear as I would like. My feeling is that if you live in a community without books and computers, for whatever reason, accessing those things is a way to get yourself excluded from that community. Or, at least, for the reading to be really useful, really applicable to your life, you would have to leave that community and find another. Not that I live in such a world. But many people do, not by choice, but by necessity.
Simon, my 11 year old son, is not reading yet. He has books and computers that fill our house and his life. I read to him, although not a lot these days, there just aren't books he wants to hear. He gets books on cd, I think being able to control when they start and stop is much more satisfying than having me read. For a long time I worried, very occasionally I still worry, but I know, and, more importantly, he knows, that reading will happen when it happens. Until then, I'm not waiting or moaning, more than that I am utterly impressed with the things that he sees based on not reading. He listens so much more intently than I do, I've read all of the Harry Potter books, he's listened to them, and he knows them better. If I'd listened to them I'd have to learn how, as Pam said she needed to do, I'd have to figure out how to stop my mind chattering so much so that I could hear Stephen Fry or Jim Dale reading to me. I would remember far less than he does. He
does that a lot, hears or sees a cue that I didn't see or hear. I did that when we lived in Japan and were completely illiterate. David would get the staff at the university to write out some of the Kanji that we needed to recognize for the bus to get home and the rest we had to figure out on our own. I still can't read or speak Japanese, but we had a full and wonderful life that year.
Also, I don't read a lot these days. I used to read almost all the time. I would have many books on the go and would forgo many other things to read them. When I had Simon and Linnaea being present was more important than reading and my reading began to wane. Reading, it seems, was about filling the empty spaces, and when I had children I had fewer of those. My reading is beginning to rise again. I am reading a bit more now than I did last year, but my life is still more interesting than other people's literary view of life. I'm not dismissing reading, but I do think that it is less valuable than it is often considered. Linnaea, my daughter, read at 6. She likes being able to read. But she doesn't read many books. Mostly it is about comics on the toilet, or quests on WoW. For books, she likes to snuggle up in bed at night and have me read to her. And Simon doesn't have any sense of less than by not reading as early as she did.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
"He listens so much more intently than I do, I've read all of the Harry
Potter books, he's listened to them, and he knows them better. If I'd
listened to them I'd have to learn how, as Pam said she needed to do,
I'd have to figure out how to stop my mind chattering so much so that I
could hear Stephen Fry or Jim Dale reading to me. I would remember far
less than he does. He
does that a lot, hears or sees a cue that I didn't see or hear. "
This was true for Chamille too. Even with games that required some sort
of memory skill, like Clue, where you had to write it down on paper to
keep track of it, she'd just remember it all in her head. She couldn't
read, or write out the words. She ALWAYS won. She was so good at
keeping it all straight in her head. Meanwhile everyone else is keeping
track on paper and their head, but refering back to paper to keep it all
straight.
She remembers all those details. I think, in part, because she doesn't
have her mind filled with things that are irrelevant to her. She can
operate at her best capacity! She reads a lot now, book after vampire
book.
Potter books, he's listened to them, and he knows them better. If I'd
listened to them I'd have to learn how, as Pam said she needed to do,
I'd have to figure out how to stop my mind chattering so much so that I
could hear Stephen Fry or Jim Dale reading to me. I would remember far
less than he does. He
does that a lot, hears or sees a cue that I didn't see or hear. "
This was true for Chamille too. Even with games that required some sort
of memory skill, like Clue, where you had to write it down on paper to
keep track of it, she'd just remember it all in her head. She couldn't
read, or write out the words. She ALWAYS won. She was so good at
keeping it all straight in her head. Meanwhile everyone else is keeping
track on paper and their head, but refering back to paper to keep it all
straight.
She remembers all those details. I think, in part, because she doesn't
have her mind filled with things that are irrelevant to her. She can
operate at her best capacity! She reads a lot now, book after vampire
book.
Jenny C
For anyone who does enjoy reading books to themselves, it's
I don't think that assumption connects with what actually happens. I
think liking to do things by yourself is more of a personality trait
than anything to do with reading. My older daughter, now 14 started
reading at 11/12 ish. She reads all the time now. I don't think she
missed out on years of joy though, she was doing things that she really
liked that were far more important and interesting than reading was at
the time.
She loves stories, really good stories. You can get stories from many
many sources, like movies and other media. Her main source for stories
came from her own head. She most definitely wasn't missing out on
interesting stories and itricate plots, because she was living them and
acting them out in her play, she wasn't passively reading them.
> a benefit to do it young...and I would assume that those who do learnto
> read young are likely to be people who are going to enjoy readingbooks to
> themselves. It's a lovely way to be by yourself, but not lonely orbored.
> I can quite understand that not everyone loves it, but for those thatdo,
> then how many more years of that joy you'll get if you are an earlyreader?!
I don't think that assumption connects with what actually happens. I
think liking to do things by yourself is more of a personality trait
than anything to do with reading. My older daughter, now 14 started
reading at 11/12 ish. She reads all the time now. I don't think she
missed out on years of joy though, she was doing things that she really
liked that were far more important and interesting than reading was at
the time.
She loves stories, really good stories. You can get stories from many
many sources, like movies and other media. Her main source for stories
came from her own head. She most definitely wasn't missing out on
interesting stories and itricate plots, because she was living them and
acting them out in her play, she wasn't passively reading them.
Pamela Sorooshian
On Aug 24, 2008, at 10:04 AM, Clare Kirkpatrick wrote:
this list.
realize that that is what is talked about pretty much nonstop right
here on this list. Like you don't think the listowner and other
regular posters know this?
access to words - the kid would have to be shut up in the house 24/7,
anyway. Words are EVERYWHERE.
banning anything with words on it?
simply thinking they are doing the right thing. First, we (regular
posters on this list) are not here telling people to "do the right
thing." We are here saying that you don't have to "do school" - that
kids can learn without curriculum, lesson plans, tests, grades,
assignments, or being taught in any usual sense of the word - and that
the same principles that apply to learning conventional school
subjects apply to other kinds of learning, too.
But, there are plenty of parents who think they're "doing the right
thing" when they smack their kids around, when they shame them, and
all sorts of things. We're most definitely not here to help parents
think they are doing the right (or wrong) thing.
Unschooling rests on a foundational set of beliefs about how children
learn. I say, "beliefs," because most people don't believe in them. It
started out more as a matter more of faith - it was based on an
underlying view of human nature. But, there is now a considerable
amount of evidence based on modern brain research to support these
beliefs. We don't spend a lot of time looking at that research, but it
is out there and pretty much completely ignored by education
professionals. These days, though, many of us have grown unschooled
children who provide evidence enough to give us tremendous confidence
in unschooling.
We're here to consider and examine and analyze unschooling principles
and to look at how they may be applied in a wide variety of real
situations and circumstances. We know that the result of this kind of
analytical process can be that parents come to more and more deeply
understand and embrace unschooling in ways they hadn't previously. We
know that parents often become kinder and gentler with their children
as their thinking about how children learn changes. It isn't about
right or wrong. It isn't about parents feeling better or worse. It is
about deepening our understanding of the basic principles and how they
work.
-pam
> I agree...if a parent is new (or not!) to unschooling, surely it'sYou talk as if that hasn't been said a million times right here on
> helpful
> to the child to say to the parent 'keep their environment word-rich
> and
> they'll learn when they're ready to'.
this list.
> It's scary being a parent and nice toAre you new here? Just wondering - because you sound like you don't
> know that you're not denying the opportunities a child needs to
> learn when
> they want/are ready to about anything.
realize that that is what is talked about pretty much nonstop right
here on this list. Like you don't think the listowner and other
regular posters know this?
> If you're child wans't learning toI doubt anybody reading this list has no books and no computer and no
> read because you had no books in your house and no computer - no
> access to
> words - that's holding them back.
access to words - the kid would have to be shut up in the house 24/7,
anyway. Words are EVERYWHERE.
> Ensuring they have the opportunity toDo you really have to ask?
> access what they need, and knowing what that might be, if and when
> they need
> it is a good thing...isn't it?
> And letting parents know what that might be,Are you seriously worried that anyone on this list is considering
> and reassuring them that children *will* learn unless you ban
> anything with
> words on is also a good thing...isn't it?
banning anything with words on it?
> Children will automaticallyI don't know about children automatically benefitting from parents
> benefit from parents who feel they're doing the right thing (or at
> least not
> doing the wrong thing) and who have relaxed about their concerns
> about the
> child not learning to read by a certain age?
simply thinking they are doing the right thing. First, we (regular
posters on this list) are not here telling people to "do the right
thing." We are here saying that you don't have to "do school" - that
kids can learn without curriculum, lesson plans, tests, grades,
assignments, or being taught in any usual sense of the word - and that
the same principles that apply to learning conventional school
subjects apply to other kinds of learning, too.
But, there are plenty of parents who think they're "doing the right
thing" when they smack their kids around, when they shame them, and
all sorts of things. We're most definitely not here to help parents
think they are doing the right (or wrong) thing.
Unschooling rests on a foundational set of beliefs about how children
learn. I say, "beliefs," because most people don't believe in them. It
started out more as a matter more of faith - it was based on an
underlying view of human nature. But, there is now a considerable
amount of evidence based on modern brain research to support these
beliefs. We don't spend a lot of time looking at that research, but it
is out there and pretty much completely ignored by education
professionals. These days, though, many of us have grown unschooled
children who provide evidence enough to give us tremendous confidence
in unschooling.
We're here to consider and examine and analyze unschooling principles
and to look at how they may be applied in a wide variety of real
situations and circumstances. We know that the result of this kind of
analytical process can be that parents come to more and more deeply
understand and embrace unschooling in ways they hadn't previously. We
know that parents often become kinder and gentler with their children
as their thinking about how children learn changes. It isn't about
right or wrong. It isn't about parents feeling better or worse. It is
about deepening our understanding of the basic principles and how they
work.
-pam
Pamela Sorooshian
On Aug 24, 2008, at 11:56 AM, Jenny C wrote:
few have been left alone (not forced to try to learn to read) to
develop this kind of skill. But it is astounding, isn't it?
-pam
> This was true for Chamille too. Even with games that required somePeople don't even know what these kids are capable of because so very
> sort
> of memory skill, like Clue, where you had to write it down on paper to
> keep track of it, she'd just remember it all in her head. She
> couldn't
> read, or write out the words. She ALWAYS won. She was so good at
> keeping it all straight in her head. Meanwhile everyone else is
> keeping
> track on paper and their head, but refering back to paper to keep it
> all
> straight.
few have been left alone (not forced to try to learn to read) to
develop this kind of skill. But it is astounding, isn't it?
-pam
Jenny C
" It's scary being a parent and nice to know that you're ......"
Parenting in a reaction to fear isn't a good place to begin. Fear based
parenting can lead to a lot of unnecessary thought hindering the process
of natural learning. If a parent is fearing that a child may not learn
to read, a child will pick up on that. It's not going to help the
natural process of reading, and worse may hinder it. Fear puts blocks
to learning. The optimal learning environment is happy and relaxed.
If you know that your child will read eventually, you can relax and then
your kids can relax. If your focus is on being happy and having fun,
how can a child go wrong with that? If the mind is open and happy and
relaxed all kinds of learning goes on!
We know a few kids personally that are completely hindered by fear. The
parents don't see it and the kids don't see it, it has become so natural
for them to feel it and have it in their lives that they can't see it
for what it is. There is a lot of fear in our culture, I won't go into
that too much. I guess it's a choice to focus on a different part of
life, the part of life that is happy and natural and fun, so that when
there is real fear and real things that are unhappy, we can get through
them without it ruining us.
Maybe I'm not making sense... I guess I feel pretty strongly that life
is in a large part what you make it to be. Anyone can make it fearful
and hard, but it makes life more fulfilling to make it fun and happy.
Parenting in a reaction to fear isn't a good place to begin. Fear based
parenting can lead to a lot of unnecessary thought hindering the process
of natural learning. If a parent is fearing that a child may not learn
to read, a child will pick up on that. It's not going to help the
natural process of reading, and worse may hinder it. Fear puts blocks
to learning. The optimal learning environment is happy and relaxed.
If you know that your child will read eventually, you can relax and then
your kids can relax. If your focus is on being happy and having fun,
how can a child go wrong with that? If the mind is open and happy and
relaxed all kinds of learning goes on!
We know a few kids personally that are completely hindered by fear. The
parents don't see it and the kids don't see it, it has become so natural
for them to feel it and have it in their lives that they can't see it
for what it is. There is a lot of fear in our culture, I won't go into
that too much. I guess it's a choice to focus on a different part of
life, the part of life that is happy and natural and fun, so that when
there is real fear and real things that are unhappy, we can get through
them without it ruining us.
Maybe I'm not making sense... I guess I feel pretty strongly that life
is in a large part what you make it to be. Anyone can make it fearful
and hard, but it makes life more fulfilling to make it fun and happy.