Arbitrary rules are uncomfortable to face
carnationsgalore
My dd16, Claire, confronted me about an arbitrary rule I've spouted
for years. In light of our examining other arbitrary rules, she
brought this one to my attention. I've always told her it's not
proper for girls and boys to do sleepovers. She started asking about
that when she was in elementary school. She had boy friends as well
as girl friends and she has never understood why they should be
treated differently.
As she got older and had official boyfriends, I felt even more
strongly about the idea that they would be in a bedroom alone at any
time of day. I laughed when she told me how ridiculous that was
because if I was worried about sex, they could do that kind of stuff
anywhere and didn't need a bed. As I agreed, I relaxed and Claire
and her boyfriends often hung out in her room alone, but I still felt
uncomfortable at the idea of a sleepover.
She asked me very direct questions about why her boyfriend couldn't
spend the night. She helped me realize that I trust her and she
makes good decisions and that being alone for several hours in the
day was no different than being alone several hours in the night. It
basically came down to my excuse of... but it's just not proper and
not socially acceptable. Argh. For me, this really is another
arbitrary rule that I've had to face, conquer and let go. Claire
found it amusing that I'm a parent who can discuss hard topics like
sex with my children quite easily and without embarrassment, yet the
idea of a guy sleeping over made me cringe. I told her it's probably
because she's my baby and watching her transition into an adult is an
ending of something for me. I've got to focus on the beginning for
her instead.
Beth M.
for years. In light of our examining other arbitrary rules, she
brought this one to my attention. I've always told her it's not
proper for girls and boys to do sleepovers. She started asking about
that when she was in elementary school. She had boy friends as well
as girl friends and she has never understood why they should be
treated differently.
As she got older and had official boyfriends, I felt even more
strongly about the idea that they would be in a bedroom alone at any
time of day. I laughed when she told me how ridiculous that was
because if I was worried about sex, they could do that kind of stuff
anywhere and didn't need a bed. As I agreed, I relaxed and Claire
and her boyfriends often hung out in her room alone, but I still felt
uncomfortable at the idea of a sleepover.
She asked me very direct questions about why her boyfriend couldn't
spend the night. She helped me realize that I trust her and she
makes good decisions and that being alone for several hours in the
day was no different than being alone several hours in the night. It
basically came down to my excuse of... but it's just not proper and
not socially acceptable. Argh. For me, this really is another
arbitrary rule that I've had to face, conquer and let go. Claire
found it amusing that I'm a parent who can discuss hard topics like
sex with my children quite easily and without embarrassment, yet the
idea of a guy sleeping over made me cringe. I told her it's probably
because she's my baby and watching her transition into an adult is an
ending of something for me. I've got to focus on the beginning for
her instead.
Beth M.
Sandra Dodd
-=-. I've always told her it's not
proper for girls and boys to do sleepovers. She started asking about
that when she was in elementary school. She had boy friends as well
as girl friends and she has never understood why they should be
treated differently.-=-
Because of a babysitting co-op that turned into a playgroup, we've
had mixed sleepovers always, because very often it was a set of mixed
siblings. And as the kids got older, some would come from other
towns to go to movies or concerts or parties and would stay over at
our house until parents could get them the next morning.
I used to have boys in my room and I could shut the door, and I
didn't "do it" with any of them. Most of them weren't even my
boyfriends. Other friends of mine who weren't even allowed to date
at all managed to find places for quickies! I had the reputation
and they had the action, as it were.
Marty had a girlfriend once upon a time and she stayed here and they
didn't do "IT" though I think they did some related-to-it things. He
has another girlfriend now, older than he is, and sometimes he
doesn't come home at night. He's 19 and she's 21 so I can't be
saying too much except "be careful." We like her.
Holly has a boyfriend. He's older than she is. He's older than
Marty. He's older than Kirby.
It didn't happen suddenly. It was VERY gradual, over years, so they
really know each other well and knew in depth what would be involved
as to families and pressure from friends and that. He's been a
friend of Kirby's for four or five years, and almost that long of
Marty's, and almost that long of Holly's.
I was surprised, but it's silly that I was. We were always happy and
proud of the fact that Kirby had friends older than he was, and
younger. Ditto Marty. Ditto Holly but WHOA!!!! We didn't think of
*that.*
But he's a sweetie, and look at them:
http://sandradodd.blogspot.com/2008/08/holly-and-brett.html
Too many young couples are arbitrarily separated. On much reflection
and hearing the stories of many people over the years, I think it's a
bad thing. Too many people are wounded by young love thwarted.
So when it seemed like it might possibly come to physicality, I took
Holly to Planned Parenthood. This makes me a big sinner in the eyes
of many, and I hope there won't be too many on this list who run off
and reject me socially forevermore, but I think it's a bigger sin to
leave young adults without choices and options, without knowledge and
openness.
Maybe one reason there are so many mean grandmothers in the world is
that they did not WANT those grandchildren, and the grandchildren
came too early because the mothers "just said no" to having a
supportive relationship with a daughter or a son.
I saw this on someone's blog the other day: "Who we pretend to be,
we become. Pretend well."
I don't pretend with my kids, and they don't have to pretend with
me. It's scary sometimes, but it's real and it's also very good to
share things that most families don't get to even hear about, or that
most teens have to lie about.
Holly has made good decisions for years, and she's still making
carefully thought out decisions.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
proper for girls and boys to do sleepovers. She started asking about
that when she was in elementary school. She had boy friends as well
as girl friends and she has never understood why they should be
treated differently.-=-
Because of a babysitting co-op that turned into a playgroup, we've
had mixed sleepovers always, because very often it was a set of mixed
siblings. And as the kids got older, some would come from other
towns to go to movies or concerts or parties and would stay over at
our house until parents could get them the next morning.
I used to have boys in my room and I could shut the door, and I
didn't "do it" with any of them. Most of them weren't even my
boyfriends. Other friends of mine who weren't even allowed to date
at all managed to find places for quickies! I had the reputation
and they had the action, as it were.
Marty had a girlfriend once upon a time and she stayed here and they
didn't do "IT" though I think they did some related-to-it things. He
has another girlfriend now, older than he is, and sometimes he
doesn't come home at night. He's 19 and she's 21 so I can't be
saying too much except "be careful." We like her.
Holly has a boyfriend. He's older than she is. He's older than
Marty. He's older than Kirby.
It didn't happen suddenly. It was VERY gradual, over years, so they
really know each other well and knew in depth what would be involved
as to families and pressure from friends and that. He's been a
friend of Kirby's for four or five years, and almost that long of
Marty's, and almost that long of Holly's.
I was surprised, but it's silly that I was. We were always happy and
proud of the fact that Kirby had friends older than he was, and
younger. Ditto Marty. Ditto Holly but WHOA!!!! We didn't think of
*that.*
But he's a sweetie, and look at them:
http://sandradodd.blogspot.com/2008/08/holly-and-brett.html
Too many young couples are arbitrarily separated. On much reflection
and hearing the stories of many people over the years, I think it's a
bad thing. Too many people are wounded by young love thwarted.
So when it seemed like it might possibly come to physicality, I took
Holly to Planned Parenthood. This makes me a big sinner in the eyes
of many, and I hope there won't be too many on this list who run off
and reject me socially forevermore, but I think it's a bigger sin to
leave young adults without choices and options, without knowledge and
openness.
Maybe one reason there are so many mean grandmothers in the world is
that they did not WANT those grandchildren, and the grandchildren
came too early because the mothers "just said no" to having a
supportive relationship with a daughter or a son.
I saw this on someone's blog the other day: "Who we pretend to be,
we become. Pretend well."
I don't pretend with my kids, and they don't have to pretend with
me. It's scary sometimes, but it's real and it's also very good to
share things that most families don't get to even hear about, or that
most teens have to lie about.
Holly has made good decisions for years, and she's still making
carefully thought out decisions.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Leah Little
> Too many young couples are arbitrarily separated. On much reflectionI thank you for this! I WAS young love thwarted and was forever
> and hearing the stories of many people over the years, I think it's a
> bad thing. Too many people are wounded by young love thwarted.
> So when it seemed like it might possibly come to physicality, I took
> Holly to Planned Parenthood. This makes me a big sinner in the eyes
> of many, and I hope there won't be too many on this list who run off
> and reject me socially forevermore, but I think it's a bigger sin to
> leave young adults without choices and options, without knowledge and
> openness.
changed by it. I defined myself by it for a very long time. There is
irreparable damage between my parents and me still to this day. I'm
32 now and I still believe that I was mature enough at 16 to be in
that relationship with my 17 year old boyfriend.
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
This reminds me when I was 17 and started dating my first serious boyfriend who was 24.
He was older but a great boyfriend and we had been friends for a long time before that ( since I was 13)
When we decided we wanted to have sex he asked me to talk to my mom so we could go to a doctor and
get ready for it ( birth control etc). Of course he knew my mom would be the kind of mom who would accept that
as when we started dating he took my mom to lunch to ask her permission and talk to her since he was older and I was still 17.
He asked me if I wanted him to talk to my mom a out taking me to a doctor so we could start having sex but I was OK doing it.
So my mom took me and I knew I could really on my mom for anything I needed and to talk about
anything over.
It was awesome having a mom like that. I am lucky she could be the partner I needed.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
----- Original Message ----
From: Leah Little <leahrlittle@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 1:31:15 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Arbitrary rules are uncomfortable to face
changed by it. I defined myself by it for a very long time. There is
irreparable damage between my parents and me still to this day. I'm
32 now and I still believe that I was mature enough at 16 to be in
that relationship with my 17 year old boyfriend.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
He was older but a great boyfriend and we had been friends for a long time before that ( since I was 13)
When we decided we wanted to have sex he asked me to talk to my mom so we could go to a doctor and
get ready for it ( birth control etc). Of course he knew my mom would be the kind of mom who would accept that
as when we started dating he took my mom to lunch to ask her permission and talk to her since he was older and I was still 17.
He asked me if I wanted him to talk to my mom a out taking me to a doctor so we could start having sex but I was OK doing it.
So my mom took me and I knew I could really on my mom for anything I needed and to talk about
anything over.
It was awesome having a mom like that. I am lucky she could be the partner I needed.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
----- Original Message ----
From: Leah Little <leahrlittle@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 1:31:15 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Arbitrary rules are uncomfortable to face
> Too many young couples are arbitrarily separated. On much reflectionI thank you for this! I WAS young love thwarted and was forever
> and hearing the stories of many people over the years, I think it's a
> bad thing. Too many people are wounded by young love thwarted.
> So when it seemed like it might possibly come to physicality, I took
> Holly to Planned Parenthood. This makes me a big sinner in the eyes
> of many, and I hope there won't be too many on this list who run off
> and reject me socially forevermore, but I think it's a bigger sin to
> leave young adults without choices and options, without knowledge and
> openness.
changed by it. I defined myself by it for a very long time. There is
irreparable damage between my parents and me still to this day. I'm
32 now and I still believe that I was mature enough at 16 to be in
that relationship with my 17 year old boyfriend.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
>This is so interesting. One of my sisters was in love when my parents were
> Too many young couples are arbitrarily separated. On much reflection
> and hearing the stories of many people over the years, I think it's a
> bad thing. Too many people are wounded by young love thwarted.
> So when it seemed like it might possibly come to physicality, I took
> Holly to Planned Parenthood. This makes me a big sinner in the eyes
> of many, and I hope there won't be too many on this list who run off
> and reject me socially forevermore, but I think it's a bigger sin to
> leave young adults without choices and options, without knowledge and
> openness.
in the process of moving us to another state as they often did when I was
younger. The move was the reason but not a good excuse for arbitrarily
separating her from a boyfriend who they liked a lot. Then as well as in
later years they said he was the best boyfriend she ever had. They liked
him but didn't even allow her to talk to him on the phone when he called.
Giving her new address wasn't allowed either because they didn't see any
reason to continue something long distance for a barely 17 year old. At
almost 9, I thought it was arbitrary.
Puppy love they called it. So they made the decision for her and she lived
with the consequence.
Since then she has been through a number of difficult scary relationships
with red flags everywhere, including 2 decades of seriously angry husband.
I think the above has a lot to do with that.
The reason I think those incidents are related is when you're young happy
and confident, you make decisions based on *that* outlook. When you're
older, unhappy, and scared, you make decisions based on a very different
outlook.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Then as well as in
later years they said he was the best boyfriend she ever had. They liked
him but didn't even allow her to talk to him on the phone when he
called.-=-
I bet it wounded him as well. If your parents could have found a way
for her to stay there, or if they could have invited him to move with
them.... Wow. How different it would have been.
I myself screwed up the relationship I should have been in, with Dev
Singh, my college boyfriend. I was 17 and he was just turning 21,
when we were first in love. It lasted nearly four years but
complications arose and I was impatient and suffering the child-of-an-
alcoholic delusion that one person can fix the lives of other people
regardless of history or genetics or alcohol.
The year I spoke at a conference in Boston, I went to dinner with him
and we talked a while. He had tried a couple of times to get back
together after I messed it up. It's too long and sad a story to tell
here, but both of us have pined in the backgrounds of our other
adventures and successes.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
later years they said he was the best boyfriend she ever had. They liked
him but didn't even allow her to talk to him on the phone when he
called.-=-
I bet it wounded him as well. If your parents could have found a way
for her to stay there, or if they could have invited him to move with
them.... Wow. How different it would have been.
I myself screwed up the relationship I should have been in, with Dev
Singh, my college boyfriend. I was 17 and he was just turning 21,
when we were first in love. It lasted nearly four years but
complications arose and I was impatient and suffering the child-of-an-
alcoholic delusion that one person can fix the lives of other people
regardless of history or genetics or alcohol.
The year I spoke at a conference in Boston, I went to dinner with him
and we talked a while. He had tried a couple of times to get back
together after I messed it up. It's too long and sad a story to tell
here, but both of us have pined in the backgrounds of our other
adventures and successes.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
It's too long and sad a story to tell
here, but both of us have pined in the backgrounds of our other
adventures and successes.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
I for one love long stories. If you feel like writing it down sometime in you blog I would love to read it.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
here, but both of us have pined in the backgrounds of our other
adventures and successes.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
I for one love long stories. If you feel like writing it down sometime in you blog I would love to read it.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
On 8/12/08, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
adventures as you call them. He's very successful work wise and from what
she related I thought he sounded like a very very good sort. Life moves on
and mostly it moves on elsewhere not back to where things were. Regrets.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>They met up again a couple of years ago and she told me he's had his own
> -=-Then as well as in
> later years they said he was the best boyfriend she ever had. They liked
> him but didn't even allow her to talk to him on the phone when he
> called.-=-
>
> I bet it wounded him as well. If your parents could have found a way
> for her to stay there, or if they could have invited him to move with
> them.... Wow. How different it would have been.
>
> I myself screwed up the relationship I should have been in, with Dev
> Singh, my college boyfriend. I was 17 and he was just turning 21,
> when we were first in love. It lasted nearly four years but
> complications arose and I was impatient and suffering the child-of-an-
> alcoholic delusion that one person can fix the lives of other people
> regardless of history or genetics or alcohol.
>
> The year I spoke at a conference in Boston, I went to dinner with him
> and we talked a while. He had tried a couple of times to get back
> together after I messed it up. It's too long and sad a story to tell
> here, but both of us have pined in the backgrounds of our other
> adventures and successes.
> .
>
>
>
adventures as you call them. He's very successful work wise and from what
she related I thought he sounded like a very very good sort. Life moves on
and mostly it moves on elsewhere not back to where things were. Regrets.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I for one love long stories. If you feel like writing it down
sometime in you blog I would love to read it.-=-
Ah, but his wife would not.
She didn't know he took me to dinner. He told her he was taking his
friend Jeff to play handball. And to add insult to possible injury,
we were in her car.
We did not hold hands. We did not kiss. We hugged. That's ALL.
There was not a smidgeon of romance, just of joy to see each other
and apologies and explanations and remorse and stories of our kids
and expressions of gladness that the other was healthy and busy. We
talked about our parents. He knew both of mine and had met three of
my grandparents. I hadn't met his parents, and they didn't want me
in his life, and his dad is still controlling and shaming, with Dev
in his 50's and a doctor (as all good Indian boys should be).
That's the only time I've knowingly been sneaky that way. At first
when he told me, before we went out there, that maybe he could meet
me but it would have to be secret, I said no. But then I thought
about it and said if that was the only way, okay.
There have been just teensy e-mails, not much, and we're not "in
contact."
When he tried to find me a few years ago, because his mother had
pressed him to get all his stuff out of their house and part of it
was letters from me from the early 1980's, he called the number that
was in there and I answered. He had expected it to have been
reassigned, or to find someone and make inquiries, but I said
"Hello." That day we talked a long, long time. But his wife didn't
approve of the reconnection, so he's had to pull way back and that's
okay.
He gave Marty and Holly gifts that day. We were at Joyce Fetteroll's
house. He gave Marty some sandalwood prayer beads. Marty wore them
on his wrist, doubled, for years. Once when he was in Washington or
Oregon he left them draped on a lamp in a hotel (lobby maybe?), and
they drove back several miles to get them.
Last month Marty had a skateboard accident, in the dark, on a street
in another neighborhood. He was banged up some, not broken, but
didn't realize until he had left the scene and come all the way home
that those beads had broken in the accident.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sometime in you blog I would love to read it.-=-
Ah, but his wife would not.
She didn't know he took me to dinner. He told her he was taking his
friend Jeff to play handball. And to add insult to possible injury,
we were in her car.
We did not hold hands. We did not kiss. We hugged. That's ALL.
There was not a smidgeon of romance, just of joy to see each other
and apologies and explanations and remorse and stories of our kids
and expressions of gladness that the other was healthy and busy. We
talked about our parents. He knew both of mine and had met three of
my grandparents. I hadn't met his parents, and they didn't want me
in his life, and his dad is still controlling and shaming, with Dev
in his 50's and a doctor (as all good Indian boys should be).
That's the only time I've knowingly been sneaky that way. At first
when he told me, before we went out there, that maybe he could meet
me but it would have to be secret, I said no. But then I thought
about it and said if that was the only way, okay.
There have been just teensy e-mails, not much, and we're not "in
contact."
When he tried to find me a few years ago, because his mother had
pressed him to get all his stuff out of their house and part of it
was letters from me from the early 1980's, he called the number that
was in there and I answered. He had expected it to have been
reassigned, or to find someone and make inquiries, but I said
"Hello." That day we talked a long, long time. But his wife didn't
approve of the reconnection, so he's had to pull way back and that's
okay.
He gave Marty and Holly gifts that day. We were at Joyce Fetteroll's
house. He gave Marty some sandalwood prayer beads. Marty wore them
on his wrist, doubled, for years. Once when he was in Washington or
Oregon he left them draped on a lamp in a hotel (lobby maybe?), and
they drove back several miles to get them.
Last month Marty had a skateboard accident, in the dark, on a street
in another neighborhood. He was banged up some, not broken, but
didn't realize until he had left the scene and come all the way home
that those beads had broken in the accident.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Life moves on
and mostly it moves on elsewhere not back to where things were.-=-
Even for people who stay in the same house for ten or twenty years,
time never stays still or goes back.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and mostly it moves on elsewhere not back to where things were.-=-
Even for people who stay in the same house for ten or twenty years,
time never stays still or goes back.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
Ain't that the truth. Me and Brian met when we were young... me 19, Brian
18. Lost touch for years and then things are very different 15 years+
later. We're very different people now.
~Katherine
18. Lost touch for years and then things are very different 15 years+
later. We're very different people now.
~Katherine
On 8/12/08, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-Life moves on
> and mostly it moves on elsewhere not back to where things were.-=-
>
> Even for people who stay in the same house for ten or twenty years,
> time never stays still or goes back.
>
> Sandra
>
> .
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Nishan
I've been dealing with this issue with Lizzy this summer. I blogged
about it at livingourlifetogether.blogspot.com I pretty much came to
the same conclusion. I trust her and if she is comfortable then I just
need to deal. I had a little jolt when I found out she had been
kissing boys. SO far I'm ok though. When it comes time for a real
boyfriend and her being ready to have sex I'm sure I will struggle
with it but we'll get through it. SHe tends to be more on the
reserved side so I may not know about it ahead of time. I hope so
though. We live together with my mom and she is very uncomfortable
with Lizzy having boys sleep over but respects me as the parent. I've
told Lizzy these things are her decision. One thing I am sure of is
that she will not do anything she does not want to do and she will do
what she wants. SHe knows I'm there if she needs me.
Kelly
about it at livingourlifetogether.blogspot.com I pretty much came to
the same conclusion. I trust her and if she is comfortable then I just
need to deal. I had a little jolt when I found out she had been
kissing boys. SO far I'm ok though. When it comes time for a real
boyfriend and her being ready to have sex I'm sure I will struggle
with it but we'll get through it. SHe tends to be more on the
reserved side so I may not know about it ahead of time. I hope so
though. We live together with my mom and she is very uncomfortable
with Lizzy having boys sleep over but respects me as the parent. I've
told Lizzy these things are her decision. One thing I am sure of is
that she will not do anything she does not want to do and she will do
what she wants. SHe knows I'm there if she needs me.
Kelly