Ed Wendell

As I'm sitting here exploring on the computer I realize that one thing I like about homeschooling / unschooling / my son is that not many 14 year old boys would sit and watch Disney's Pocahontas - all because he was flipping channels and chose to watch it.

So far we've discussed the non-authentic clothing of the Native Americans in the movie - we looked that up on the internet. How Disney tends to make all their leading ladies "sexy" Barbie types (and he said Why does Disney do that?) . Authentic armor of the British in that time period; James Town's history review - as he already knew that. The real history/story of James Town, John Smith, Pocahontas,

Then there are the funny parts involving the animals ! :)

History and humor all in one ;) and thank goodness for the internet to further our discussions.


Lisa W.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lynda

My 15 year old son is sitting next to me on the sofa watching Enchanted
with his sisters. A couple of hours earlier he & a friend
were making chocolate daleks with a bunch of girls ranging from 6 up
who were here for his sister's birthday party. I love how chilled he is.

Lynda

Linda

--- In [email protected], "Ed Wendell" <ewendell@...> wrote:
>
> As I'm sitting here exploring on the computer I realize that one
thing I like about homeschooling / unschooling / my son is that not
many 14 year old boys would sit and watch Disney's Pocahontas - all
because he was flipping channels and chose to watch it.
>
> So far we've discussed the non-authentic clothing of the Native
Americans in the movie - we looked that up on the internet. How
Disney tends to make all their leading ladies "sexy" Barbie types (and
he said Why does Disney do that?) . Authentic armor of the British in
that time period; James Town's history review - as he already knew
that. The real history/story of James Town, John Smith, Pocahontas,
>
> Then there are the funny parts involving the animals ! :)
>
> History and humor all in one ;) and thank goodness for the
internet to further our discussions.
>
>
> Lisa W.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I so agree with what you are saying!! I love that homeschooled kids
will play with other kids of any age, and will watch anything that
interests them without having to worry that it is too 'babyish' for
them. I also love that one thing leads to another and you end up
having a whole range of discussions (from moral to factual) starting
just from watching one programme or movie!! I am trying very hard to
transition from 'homeschooling' to 'unschooling', and while I can see
all the advantages of it, I am just scared to actually 'let go' and do it!
Linda

Ed Wendell

For some reason he got caught up in watching old Disney movies the past few days - the animated ones. They were on TV and he was just having a really great time. Robin Hood has some really funny scenes; Hercules too. These were funny and entertaining for us and yet they led to many more connections throughout the day & spilling into more days too. He even wanted to know when they were made so he could discuss/analyze how time periods effected things like dance scenes, jokes, political correctness/acceptance of the time, etc.

Hercules led to his reviving a computer game he likes called Age Of Mythology and dragging out his mythology books.
Then he told me yesterday he was glad he decided to play Mythology again because now he knows how to spell "Trojan". This moment of joy and confidence for a child that flunked every spelling test in first, second, and third grade because he could not write fast enough to keep up with the teacher as she gave out the words for the test - so then he decided he could not spell ;( was so simple in the making - all on his own by playing a game he likes. Which started with a TV movie. Well I say all on his own - his dad and I have spent countless hours sitting next to him and spelling for him when he asks us to spell a word so he could play games, and do searches on the internet.

We are enjoying "The Muppet Show" as a family too. Actually there are several "old" shows we are enjoying together on an ongoing basis, Hogan's Hero's and MASH are two more. Plus we've always enjoyed the Loony Tunes cartoons. Loony Tunes is how he was exposed to (learned about) opera and grand classic piano concerts when he was very young.

Lisa W.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I love that homeschooled kids
will play with other kids of any age, and will watch anything that
interests them without having to worry that it is too 'babyish' for
them.-=-



Holly (my youngest) is 16. Kirby (my oldest) is 22. She went with
him to Texas for a few days last month. When she got back she asked
me if I knew a certain song, and sang a little of it. I said yes.
She asked if I had it and would I put it on a CD for her. Yes.

She heard it in Kirby's car, and he told her it was one of his
favorite songs.

It was a Kermit the Frog song, done by Jim Henson. It was on a
cassette tape Kirby loved when he was little, and then years later I
couldn't find it on CD and a very nice unschooling mom (Chris/zamozo)
sent me a copy of hers. I put it on my computer and went about my
happy life.

I didn't press Holly to listen to it. She has her own busy, happy life.

When I went to get the lyrics I found them, and more. I didn't find
the composer, but when I know I'll add it here:

http://biochemicallove.blogspot.com/2008/08/all-i-have-to-do.html



STUNNINGLY, I was able to *easily* embed the song, and I already had
a place to put it. I have a blog called

LOVE: ROMANTIC BIOCHEMISTRY
LYRICAL EVIDENCE FOR THE BIOCHEMICAL CHANGES KNOWN AS "BEING IN
LOVE," AND SIMILAR BUSINESS

So if you want to see the lyrics and even hear the song Holly loved
so much from Kirby's iPod... there it is.

Sandra










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-his dad and I have spent countless hours sitting next to him and
spelling for him when he asks us to spell a word so he could play
games, -=-

Marty used to play a game called Alliance of Nations (AON) which was
all chat-room and IM based, on AOL. It was elaborate and lasted a
long time (might still be going). It was an interactive role-playing
thing with unlimited opportunities for others to join in, and it was
well organized, and Kirby and Marty were both fairly advanced in the
game.

Marty could hardly spell, though. So he would call out "How do you
spell [something]" and someone would call it back out to thim, me or
Keith or Kirby.

One night he kept playing after others were asleep or gone, and he
said the next day that one of the other players had said kinda
hatefully "Dude, you write like a 10yo" and Marty wrote "I AM a
10yo." I wish Marty had kept the script of it, but I am reporting
from memory from years ago, so it might not be letter for letter, or
even the right age. But Marty read at 9 so I'm thinking it was
probably 10. (I have a very hard time remembering numbers.)

His age had just never begun to show before that. <bwg>

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

g-liberatedlearning

Zoe (10) started playing World of Warcraft last month. She shouts
out for help with spelling words a lot. She recently started her own
guild and has a great time recruiting members and fostering a
cooperative and positive theme for her guild. She told me that her
guild is about the more experienced helping the less experienced. I
understand there's a lot of that in WoW. She structured her guild
based on her favorite book series, Warriors, about wild cat clans.
She is the leader and then she has deputies, warriors and
apprentices. She spends a lot of time chatting with her guild
members when she's online -- encouraging them, inquiring about their
day-to-day activities that they've shared. I talked to her about the
concept of paying it forward and suggested that that phrase might be
an efficient way for her to communicate her idea about how the guild
should function. I don't know if she'll use it but she does like to
come up with positive, encouraging guild messages of the day.

We've talked about not sharing personal information online even when
it feels like you know the other player well. I wonder how many of
her guild members would be surprised to find she's only 10 years old.


Chris
Radically Unschooling in Iowa
The Unzone


> -=-his dad and I have spent countless hours sitting next to him and
> spelling for him when he asks us to spell a word so he could play
> games, -=-
>
> Marty used to play a game called Alliance of Nations (AON) which was
> all chat-room and IM based, on AOL. It was elaborate and lasted a
> long time (might still be going). It was an interactive role-playing
> thing with unlimited opportunities for others to join in, and it was
> well organized, and Kirby and Marty were both fairly advanced in the
> game.
>
> Marty could hardly spell, though. So he would call out "How do you
> spell [something]" and someone would call it back out to thim, me or
> Keith or Kirby.
>
> One night he kept playing after others were asleep or gone, and he
> said the next day that one of the other players had said kinda
> hatefully "Dude, you write like a 10yo" and Marty wrote "I AM a
> 10yo." I wish Marty had kept the script of it, but I am reporting
> from memory from years ago, so it might not be letter for letter, or
> even the right age. But Marty read at 9 so I'm thinking it was
> probably 10. (I have a very hard time remembering numbers.)
>
> His age had just never begun to show before that. <bwg>
>
> Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

All day long when my son is playing Roblox on line I am called to read or write things for him.
He can read some and write some , he just turned six. He says he cannot read because for him reading is when you can read all.
I told him that you learn a little all the time.
He loves to "talk"to other kids on line.
At Roblox he has made a few games and once he got a message that I am going to paste  and copy here: ( he was still 5 at the time)
This is what his profile says ( it said 5 before instead of 6 years old):

"Hi I am Mario and I am 6 years old. I will accept any friends request and I will help many people here on Roblox . I am a Super Mario fan and I have almost all of Mario's games on my Nintendo DS and Wii. I will have Mario Sunshine soon and keep on visiting my games so I can build it. Please everyone keep visiting all my 3 games so I can make a Mario Sunshine soon I will have all of the Mario games built. I will also have a Super Mario Galaxy that is cute and fun" 
 
He dictate that for me to write when he first got into Roblox.
Ok so he got a message that said:ok seriously are u lying? cus if ur 5 years old then ur like a genius
 
and this is what followed:
 
wow cool, then ur pretty smart, if u interested maybe you should consider designing games as a career lol
------------------------------
On 6/1/2008 at 10:10 AM mario555555 wrote:


FOR REAL I WILL BE 6 ON JUNE 24!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
------------------------------
On 6/1/2008 at 2:28 AM warboy4life wrote:

ok seriously are u lying? cus if ur 5 years old then ur like a genius
 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 
MD is just an average kid.
 
 
 

 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
 







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

How cool is that?

My kids have been a little embarrassed by this kind of thing,
occasionally, throughout their unschooling lives. Usually they've said
something like, "No, not a genius, but I have a lot more time than
most kids to...." (fill in the blank with whatever the thing is that
they were so impressive at).

But - a 16 yo very school-entrenched kid recently told Rosie and
Roxana that their mom is "genius" - not "a" genius. <G>
I'm not sure what she meant, but I'll just take it as a compliment,
anyway.

-pam

On Aug 12, 2008, at 11:56 AM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY wrote:

>
> FOR REAL I WILL BE 6 ON JUNE 24!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> ------------------------------
> On 6/1/2008 at 2:28 AM warboy4life wrote:
>
> ok seriously are u lying? cus if ur 5 years old then ur like a genius
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Margaret

Looking at the wikipedia article on "genius", her comment that you are
Genius (not A genius) seems appropriate. She is saying that you are the
guiding tutelary spirit of your kids. She may not have meant it that way,
but perhaps she did... :)

Etymology

In Ancient Rome <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome>, the
*genius*was the guiding or "
tutelary <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tutelary>"
spirit<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit>of a
person <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person>, or even of an entire
gens<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gens>,
the plural of which was
'genii'[9]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genius#cite_note-8>.
A related term is *genius loci <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genius_loci>*,
the spirit <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit> of a specific locale. A
specific spirit <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit>, or
*dæmon<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon_%28mythology%29>
*, may inhabit an image or icon <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icon>, giving
it supernatural <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernatural> powers.

A comparable term from Arabic <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab> lore is a
*djinn <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djinn>*, often Anglicized as "genie".
Note, however, that this term is considered a false
friend<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_friend>,
not a cognate <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognate> by most
Anglo<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo>-American
anthropologists. Recent work by Russian, Romanian, Italian and a few
American <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States> linguists may return
the word to cognate status <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status>.[*citation
needed <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed>*]

For more information on these etymological roots, see Genius
(mythology)<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genius_%28mythology%29>
.


On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 6:59 PM, Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>wrote:

> How cool is that?
>
> My kids have been a little embarrassed by this kind of thing,
> occasionally, throughout their unschooling lives. Usually they've said
> something like, "No, not a genius, but I have a lot more time than
> most kids to...." (fill in the blank with whatever the thing is that
> they were so impressive at).
>
> But - a 16 yo very school-entrenched kid recently told Rosie and
> Roxana that their mom is "genius" - not "a" genius. <G>
> I'm not sure what she meant, but I'll just take it as a compliment,
> anyway.
>
> -pam
>
>
> On Aug 12, 2008, at 11:56 AM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY wrote:
>
> >
> > FOR REAL I WILL BE 6 ON JUNE 24!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > ------------------------------
> > On 6/1/2008 at 2:28 AM warboy4life wrote:
> >
> > ok seriously are u lying? cus if ur 5 years old then ur like a genius
> >
> > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paula Sjogerman

On Aug 12, 2008, at 8:59 PM, Pamela Sorooshian wrote:

> My kids have been a little embarrassed by this kind of thing,
> occasionally, throughout their unschooling lives. Usually they've said
> something like, "No, not a genius, but I have a lot more time than
> most kids to...." (fill in the blank with whatever the thing is that
> they were so impressive at).


Quinn just got told at his Nature Museum program to tone himself down
because his intelligence was intimidating to the others. The (from
the public school system) teacher said "You know, their education is
terrible and they don't have the advantages you do as a homeschooler."

!!!

Paula

k

Oh my. Aren't you glad he's not in school? Dumbing down the quick learning
moments to make sure nobody's feelings get stepped on.

~Katherine


On 8/13/08, Paula Sjogerman <sjogy@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Aug 12, 2008, at 8:59 PM, Pamela Sorooshian wrote:
>
> > My kids have been a little embarrassed by this kind of thing,
> > occasionally, throughout their unschooling lives. Usually they've said
> > something like, "No, not a genius, but I have a lot more time than
> > most kids to...." (fill in the blank with whatever the thing is that
> > they were so impressive at).
>
> Quinn just got told at his Nature Museum program to tone himself down
> because his intelligence was intimidating to the others. The (from
> the public school system) teacher said "You know, their education is
> terrible and they don't have the advantages you do as a homeschooler."
>
> !!!
>
> Paula
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Oh my. Aren't you glad he's not in school? Dumbing down the quick
learning
moments to make sure nobody's feelings get stepped on.-=-



I think it's a good skill to have. It's a courtesy not to outtalk
and outthink people in a group situation.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paula Sjogerman

On Aug 13, 2008, at 11:10 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> -=-Oh my. Aren't you glad he's not in school? Dumbing down the quick
> learning
> moments to make sure nobody's feelings get stepped on.-=-
>
>
>
> I think it's a good skill to have. It's a courtesy not to outtalk
> and outthink people in a group situation.
>
>

That's what we told him. I just thought it was funny coming from that
teacher.

Paula

Sandra Dodd

-=-That's what we told him. I just thought it was funny coming from that
teacher.-=-



Definitely the part about "advantages" was great!

The advantages my kids have from being left alone, or encourage, or
made to laugh and sing...

I figured out how to get most of that stuff in school--privacy,
encouragement, humor and music--but I know other kids around me
couldn't figure out, didn't want, were crushed or homesick and all
the bad things. I know it was partly my own personality and a lot
of luck that made school nearly painless for me. When others talk
about the advantages of school, I'm coldhearted to it, because for
every person like me there are 100 others crying or who gave up
crying and have become weak or mean or otherwise given up.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

I think one of the discouragements for me with school is the constant rule
working at all times to limit students who like to move through things they
don't understand just for experience and to see what they can gather on the
off-chance. That way global learning yields new ideas. For the most part,
school is much more deliberate, step-oriented (regimented) and managed than
that. After a while, all the students get accustomed to living slow and
waiting around, so that if --one day-- an offer comes to fly through freely
and have fun with ideas, most kids don't have the skills to do it, even the
ones who naturally gravitate to zooming around with ideas. It's been worked
out of them.... at least for the time being ... and translates to a loss of
confidence. That's why a kid who hasn't been waiting and slowed down and
losing confidence is overwhelming to the school kids.

We know that because of our own kids if they've been unschooled for any
length of time.

Like you say, it *is* possible to move through and thrive in school while in
your own dreamworld and ignore the dynamics of a certain amount of school
stuff. To a degree I could hide in the world of books, but I needed more
than that to really thrive. At home, music was very much restricted as were
"certain" TV shows and movies. We lived in the boondocks so socially...
forget about it.

It *is* good to know that not everybody can "swim" so be careful not
to "splash water in their faces or dunk 'em underwater." There are just
naturally all kinds of levels in any given situation, and bumping people
around conversationally is a risk.

The unintended effect of telling students who zoom through to tone down is
to strike fear into the hearts of those who might otherwise be encouraged to
try zooming around too. School can't accommodate much chaos, noising about
or motion.

It's unmanageable. Homeschoolers can embrace a few more levels of chaos
without falling apart. Unlike school, consideration to others takes the
place of the school intolerance for what looks like chaos.

It's also worth nothing that chaos is not a set of objective facts.... it's
a perception of what someone considers to be chaotic, which in the mind of
one person is one thing, and in the mind of another is an entirely different
thing.

Well.. I went on longer about this than I intended but there it is.

~Katherine



On 8/13/08, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-That's what we told him. I just thought it was funny coming from that
> teacher.-=-
>
> Definitely the part about "advantages" was great!
>
> The advantages my kids have from being left alone, or encourage, or
> made to laugh and sing...
>
> I figured out how to get most of that stuff in school--privacy,
> encouragement, humor and music--but I know other kids around me
> couldn't figure out, didn't want, were crushed or homesick and all
> the bad things. I know it was partly my own personality and a lot
> of luck that made school nearly painless for me. When others talk
> about the advantages of school, I'm coldhearted to it, because for
> every person like me there are 100 others crying or who gave up
> crying and have become weak or mean or otherwise given up.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

> ok seriously are u lying? cus if ur 5 years old then ur like a genius
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
> MD is just an average kid.

Lately, Chamille has been running into age restrictions for things that
she really really wants to do and is fully capable of doing. It's hard,
she's 14 and really is so much more capable than the average 14 yo.
We've seriously considered lying about her age. I'm not sure yet if we
will.

What she wants to do, she has to be 16 to do. If she waits until she's
16, she may have lost the interest. That would be a shame, because
she's passionate and capable now, but that could change if it's
thwarted.

It's really tough to have to wait simply because of an age requirement.
In general, our attitude is to find a way to do it, to empower our kids
to do what they want. This one issue keeps coming up. Years ago, it
was that she had to wait until she was 14 to do some thing or another,
and now at 14, she's moved on to other things. She was fully capable at
the age of 12 to do the things that had the 14 yr age requirement.

So this time, we are seriously considering saying that she is older than
what she is. Nobody would ever notice, she looks and acts much older
than what she is. We both still think it a bit unethical, and are
trying other ways first.

Jenny C

> I think one of the discouragements for me with school is the constant
rule
> working at all times to limit students who like to move through things
they
> don't understand just for experience and to see what they can gather
on the
> off-chance. That way global learning yields new ideas. For the most
part,
> school is much more deliberate, step-oriented (regimented) and managed
than
> that. After a while, all the students get accustomed to living slow
and
> waiting around, so that if --one day-- an offer comes to fly through
freely
> and have fun with ideas, most kids don't have the skills to do it,
even the
> ones who naturally gravitate to zooming around with ideas. It's been
worked
> out of them.... at least for the time being ... and translates to a
loss of
> confidence. That's why a kid who hasn't been waiting and slowed down
and
> losing confidence is overwhelming to the school kids.


That makes a lot of sense to me! I do see many kids afraid to step out
and step up. I don't see that in my own kids. They aren't afraid of
their own self knowledge or finding answers in creative ways or
unconventional ways.

To add to that dynamic, there is a "one up you" mentality involved. It
seems a lot of kids want the right answer and the pat on the back and
will lie and cheat and try to stand out in other ways to get that
attention. It's very competitive. We were at the zoo yesterday and
there were a lot of summer camp and daycare programs with school kids
there. We saw it all around us the whole time we were there.

Kids pushing and shoving to get there first, to get the answer first, to
see it better without any regard for their neighbor or others around
them, or for the actual knowledge. How hard it must be for kids like
that, so desperate for that, to have a kid in the midst who gets it with
ease and confidence without having to do that all the pushing and
shoving and clamboring to the top.

I love kids. I can see the beauty in every kid, but that aspect is
really hard to get around. To me, it is ugly making behavior, one that
I don't see my kids doing, even in the midst of competition, they are
gracious and kind. It is really hard for me to see an otherwise smart
and sweet child pushing themselves into that "one up you" role. Some
kids don't do it, they don't play the game, and they get ignored and
miss out on turns. It's a yucky dynamic that schools foster!

k

>
> To add to that dynamic, there is a "one up you" mentality involved. It
> seems a lot of kids want the right answer and the pat on the back and
> will lie and cheat and try to stand out in other ways to get that
> attention. It's very competitive.


Ah... now that's something different from chaos control. In school, I was a
kid who hung in the back.

Competition is an all or nothing deal... some win and everybody else loses.
Creativity isn't addressed much in that. And to me, that's chaotic.... that
competition at school, work and many areas of our lives centers around the
"one up" thought.

It doesn't have to. I have learned more through challenging myself to reach
higher than from any externally applied competitive pool of play or school
life. It's possible to compete with your past "levels" rather than with
other people. Mentally you can do that even if you are playing with others
in a competitive game. It makes it way more fun... realizing that the real
competitor you're playing against is yourself not other people. Because if
you can keep expanding past previous levels and attain more knowledge
through such challenges to yourself, then you can continue to play for a lot
longer with happier motivation. Of course, many people never understand
that point and they may be happier with the idea of beating others out than
challenging themselves. The problem with that only occurs if you lose and
others win, where does it leave you? One down. In challenging yourself,
you're never really in the one down position but always winning.

~Katherine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

So this time, we are seriously considering saying that she is older than
what she is. Nobody would ever notice, she looks and acts much older
than what she is. We both still think it a bit unethical, and are
trying other ways first.
 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Yeah I would not go that route either. There is always a way that does not involve lying.
What are the things she wants to do that she needs to be older. Maybe someone here can help find solutions.
I also started doing things very early when was a professional dog handler at 14 years old.
So I have been there and my mom and I always found a way even if we had to convince people that I was capable.

 
 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Susan Reeve

As as ethics educator I would suggest that conspiring with your daughter to
fudge her age, sets an unhealthy precedent. The "I should be allowed to
because," mentality is behind much lying, and immorality. The problem is
that it cam become generalized to other areas of her life. It is a form of
over-indulgence that has been studied to show that children who are indulged
with privileges that they don't deserve, have a harder time with
relationships in the future.

Let's say that she wants to attend a class that she is too young to take:
You would have to come up with a reason that it is OK this time to lie. She
could then use the exact wording of that justification to tell herself that
she can lie when SHE wants to. She would also have to maintain the lie for
the duration of the class, possibly leading to more lies as she tries to
explain why she has or hasn't done certain things. That is shouldering her
with a burden that is heavy and unnecessary.

My husband runs a survival school, and he often gets requests from parents
to allow their 16 year olds into the class. He works with them - and will
often allow it if the parent attends as well.

A really important lesson for children is not to CHEAT the system but CHANGE
the system, or CREATE a new system. If that is not possible, then learn to
live with the frustration and focus on other legitimate goals.

I know you said you were looking for alternatives, so I just wanted to weigh
in. Good luck - it's a frustrating situation.


Www.overindulgence.info

Susan Reeve

Sandra Dodd

-=-Overindulgence is much more than spoiling children.-=-

I would like to counter the link (on which I found the above quote)
with this:
http://sandradodd.com/spoiled

I'd also be interested in a summary definition of "ethics educator."

In the Society for Creative Anachronism, I'm a kind of "go to" person
for ethics and for people to run their plans by when they want help
to maintain their integrity and reputation. Sometimes that happens
with people in other parts of my life, too. I don't think of it as
"ethics education," though, but as helping people be their best selves.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

> As as ethics educator I would suggest that conspiring with your
daughter to
> fudge her age, sets an unhealthy precedent. The "I should be allowed
to
> because," mentality is behind much lying, and immorality.

I never ever used that argument that one should be allowed to because.
I do feel it is unethical to lie about ones age. We've discussed this
thoroughly together. She never lies about her age in any other area,
except getting a myspace account. She gets irritated when others her
age lie to appear older than they are, especially when they don't act
the age they are lying about.

The problem is
> that it cam become generalized to other areas of her life. It is a
form of
> over-indulgence that has been studied to show that children who are
indulged
> with privileges that they don't deserve, have a harder time with
> relationships in the future.

While this may be true for some folks, I don't see how this applies to a
thoughtful unschooled child making a calculating decision. I have a
hard time with the concept in general that children are ever indulged
with priviledges they don't deserve. My children deserve all the
priviledges that I can give them, really! All children deserve
priviledges, especially highly controlled by adult ones. This is
something that we really try to avoid at all costs through unschooling,
controlling priviledges. What makes someone deserving of priviledge
and not others? I'm not sure I agree with this line of thought at all!


>
> Let's say that she wants to attend a class that she is too young to
take:
> You would have to come up with a reason that it is OK this time to
lie. She
> could then use the exact wording of that justification to tell herself
that
> she can lie when SHE wants to. She would also have to maintain the lie
for
> the duration of the class, possibly leading to more lies as she tries
to
> explain why she has or hasn't done certain things. That is shouldering
her
> with a burden that is heavy and unnecessary.

I suppose in theory this might be true. However, I'm not talking about
theoretical, I'm talking about making a concious choice to do something
while fully aware of consequences. Chamille and I have not agreed to
actually lie about her age. It is something that we've considered as a
way of working around arbritrary rules, among other brainstorming ideas.
Lying about her age isn't going to turn her into a criminal, or even
cause her to shoulder a heavy burden. It's just one of many many ways
around a hurdle to get what she wants.


> A really important lesson for children is not to CHEAT the system but
CHANGE
> the system, or CREATE a new system. If that is not possible, then
learn to
> live with the frustration and focus on other legitimate goals.

Yes that's very noble, but also extremely time consuming when you'd
rather just get involved in the actual doing of what you want to do.
I've created my own systems before, and tried to change existing ones.
However that is not where my daughters talents lie (no pun intended
there). This aspect of life frustrates her. She doesn't want to change
or recreate everything, she just wants opportunity that is fair and
equitable. Unfortunately for her, our culture in general looks down on
children and the abilities they possess.

We've found a way without having to lie about her age. It took a lot of
time on my part, but we did it.

Jenny C

> What are the things she wants to do that she needs to be older. Maybe
someone here can help find solutions.


She wants to be involved in theater, but not as a diva. She wants to do
costuming and make-up. There are theater classes, a dime a dozen for
acting, but really none for what she wants to do unless you go in
sideways through community theater volunteer.

More specifically she wants to do the haunted houses for halloween.
Every time we went to the volunteer webpages for the dozens of these in
the area they required an age of 16. We found one that didn't have a
requirement in print and sent out the form. We got an okay from them in
an odd way because we couldn't get the form to process correctly so I
had to contact someone personally and through the exchange I explained
our situation and it was okayed, with me being a chaperone. If this
fluke of fate hadn't happened she wouldn't have been given a chance at
all simply because of her age, they would've tossed the form outright
because it turns out they do have an age restriction, just an unposted
one.

Ren Allen

~~As as ethics educator I would suggest that conspiring with your
daughter to fudge her age, sets an unhealthy precedent. ~~

What about the ethics of arbitrary age discrimination?
We fudge the children's age to help them set up myspace accounts and
accounts at Imagination Tribe and Radical Unschooling Network. That's
one example of expanding and opening their world through age fudging.

I disagree that it's always an "unhealthy precedent".

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

swissarmy_wife

Isn't it Runescape that has an age requirement of 13? Of all the
children I know that play Runescape not one of them is 13. Heck my 3
year old gave it a shot.


> What about the ethics of arbitrary age discrimination?
> We fudge the children's age to help them set up myspace accounts and
> accounts at Imagination Tribe and Radical Unschooling Network. That's
> one example of expanding and opening their world through age fudging.
>
> I disagree that it's always an "unhealthy precedent".
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>

Heather Barahona

>>>>>"You can't give what you don't have," some people say, and if you want
your children to give generosity and kindness and patience to others, you
should give them so much they're overflowing with it.



I really liked this, Sandra. J Thank you for writing it. (I love your
website by the way. It�s just so much fun to read and I�ve gotten so much
out of it!)



I think I�ve been lurking on this group. I am new to unschooling. We just
made the decision to home school a week and a half ago. Since then I have
been devouring everyone�s blogs and posts. It just makes so much sense to
me. Thank you to everyone who posts on here. You�ve really helped me
articulate what I want for my children, what I think will add more value to
their lives, and what I think they deserve. I wish I could meet you all at
the conference in a couple weeks, I just couldn�t afford it this year
(single mom, grad student, basically indigent). But, hopefully we�ll be
there next time! J



I thought I would add that my children, though we are technically living
below the poverty level :), have wonderful grandparents and extended family
members who provide them with EVERYTHING! They have so much stuff, it
literally looks like someone emptied a truck at our front door that was
supposed to fill a toy store. My kids don�t really know we (appear to) live
way out of our means. To keep living expenses down, we live out of the city
and share our house with another single mom and her two daughters. There is
a big difference in our children, even though they have access to all the
same stuff. I think that stuff is not what gives kids bad attitudes, rather
it is the treatment they get from their parents. A lot of parents would
rather buy a kid a toy than play with them. But, I�ve never personally seen
a �spoiled� child who was truly listened to, respected, and cared for,
regardless of how much stuff they had. And being someone who researches
behavior for a living, I would be very interested to see convincing data
(not just anecdotal evidence) otherwise.



Thanks, as always, for such interesting brain food. :)

Heather


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6:20 AM



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

I suppose it could be seen as an "unhealthy precedent" -- even literally
-- back in the day to hide Jews during Nazi raids or escaped African slaves
here in the US. People could be and were easily implicated, imprisoned and
even lost lives by taking such crazy risks but of course the risk takers'
motives were ethical. It was not simply about creating new systems or
changing the current system.

By comparison what we're talking about is not so crazy ... bending rules.
People who really believe children deserve privileges are taking a risk to
slip them into age groups that are barred to them, but hopefully it's with
the considered research, decision-making and permission of parents. After
all, people under 18 are defined as legally underage in the US, and parents
are legally held responsible. That's the reason for the checkmark. And it
isn't enough. The computer and that checkmark don't do anything but get
clicked, so it's all unenforceable baloney, legalese and pablum.

I like what I'm hearing in this thread from unschoolers. Parents are
negotiating and facilitating a passageway where they feel that their
children are barred unnecessarily. Amazingly their children trust them
enough to ask in the first place. To my mind, this takes a lot of lead out
of the risk for these children because everyone is sharing information:
children with parents and parents with children. They're making decisions
together. Nobody's flying solo or taking a big ugly risk. On the other
hand, I rarely expected my parents to go to bat for me, and if it was the
internet and I could gain access without them knowing I'm sure I wouldn't
have troubled to ask. Here's hoping I would have been savvy enough not to
trust a complete stranger over the internet.

Oh yes, one more thing! There are 18 year olds so sheltered that they are
no better off than a 7 year old.

~Katherine




On 8/14/08, Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> ~~As as ethics educator I would suggest that conspiring with your
> daughter to fudge her age, sets an unhealthy precedent. ~~
>
> What about the ethics of arbitrary age discrimination?
> We fudge the children's age to help them set up myspace accounts and
> accounts at Imagination Tribe and Radical Unschooling Network. That's
> one example of expanding and opening their world through age fudging.
>
> I disagree that it's always an "unhealthy precedent".
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
> .
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

I think lying is very bad. I think setting precedents that lying is
okay is bad, in general. I also think that when a child and parent
together decide to say "Okay" about something like agreeing to a
photo-storage site, or MySpace, or a game, that it's NOTHING on earth
like a child lying behind her parents' back to get into a bar, or a
parent lying to a child in ways that erode faith and trust.

If I were organizing a class or workshop (as I have done) and I had
an age cut-off or recommendation (as I've done a few times, but not
often), I would NOT appreciate anyone lying to get around it, or
ignoring it. I wouldn't mind someone requesting an exception, if
they were willing to take no for an answer.

What makes more sense to me is to explain what it is about the age:
maybe the person needs to be able to read, or to read music, or to
get into a place where you have to be 21, or maybe the site owner
doesn't let people under 18 be there without signed waivers from
parents or whatever all. Sometimes there are real conditions, and
those shouldn't be lied about.

Sandra