Sleeping (was Re: Crisis of Faith)
Sandra Dodd
-=-But, really, if having no bedtimes
is making a family miserable, causing a rift between parents, etc.,
then I'd suggest finding a way to have less rigid bedtimes with
relaxed routines that make the evenings sweet and not filled with
battles.-=-
Yes.
As far as I know, the false idea that "unschoolers have no bedtimes"
came from things I wrote years ago when we were sharing one computer
and one dial-up internet connection, and I didn't mind Kirby staying
up late to be on the internet, and Keith and I, as a part of our
hobby (SCA) very often had our children with us late at night, doing
cool things.
And when we were home, instead of "having a bedtime," I would nurse
the baby to sleep at some point, and the older child wold fall asleep
in Keith's lap, or lying next to me on the couch, or something.
Kirby didn't sleep as much as the others, when he was little, and
sometimes (even pre-computer) I would get up with him and set him up
with a long video tape and some food, go back to sleep. Our house
was very small, and he would be quiet because the others were sleeping.
When people asked questions about the problems the were having with
bedtimes, I would tell those stories as possible options. Years
passed, and it seemed to become "part of unschooling." I think of
it more as respect for children and a lack of arbitrary rules.
If sleep has a purpose, that should be the focus. Safety, comfort
and rest, not control and schedules. From La Leche Leagues's
recommendation of letting childen sleep with parents, we had children
who liked to sleep. Sleeping was good, and fun, and desireable.
They were never put in a room along and commanded to be quiet and sleep.
So for a family that has been doing that ("go to sleep; it's 8:00"),
it's worth them thinking about why and whether there are options.
And lately I hear more often of people saying things like "I told my
kids we were unschooling and now there are no bedtimes."
There are principles at work here. Children should feel safe and
make choices. Parents should do things for good and sensible
reasons, not for arbitrary or kneejerk reasons.
If children are made to eat when they're not hungry, and forbidden to
eat when they are hungry, that's either arbitrary or cruel. Trying
to "put children on a schedule" with eating makes sense in a culture
in which meals are formal and there's no real way to get food between
meals, or in a culture in which children are to learn they're small
and unimportant.
The same thoughts can be put onto sleep. There are situations in
which sleeping at certain times are necessary for safety (war zones,
jungles, dormitories where several people share a room...) but when
there are locked houses with electric lights and safe things to do,
and when it's possible for a child to sleep safely and comfortably
even when the sun is up, then there might be other considerations.
People of any age can learn to listen to their bodies about hunger,
thirst, needs for rest, etc. But they can't listen if someone else
is telling them whether they are or should be eating, drinking,
sleeping, or not. Learning to know ourselves is useful for other
learning, but it is not in and of itself "unschooling."
This isn't a simple subject, and it's one I'm not personally clear
on. It's hard to explain how it ties in with unschooling. I know
how our kids have grown and how good they are now at getting up when
they need to and sleeping when they need to (Holly got herself up
this morning at 7:30 to take me to a dentist's appointment involving
sedation--she drove and waited and brought me home).
What's not clear is how and whether other families can or should move
in that direction. All of a sudden is not the way, though. And "a
rule" that there can be no bedtime is the extreme opposite that there
Must be a certain by-the-clock bedtime. It's just replacing one rule
with another rule instead of examining particular ideas and exceptions.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
is making a family miserable, causing a rift between parents, etc.,
then I'd suggest finding a way to have less rigid bedtimes with
relaxed routines that make the evenings sweet and not filled with
battles.-=-
Yes.
As far as I know, the false idea that "unschoolers have no bedtimes"
came from things I wrote years ago when we were sharing one computer
and one dial-up internet connection, and I didn't mind Kirby staying
up late to be on the internet, and Keith and I, as a part of our
hobby (SCA) very often had our children with us late at night, doing
cool things.
And when we were home, instead of "having a bedtime," I would nurse
the baby to sleep at some point, and the older child wold fall asleep
in Keith's lap, or lying next to me on the couch, or something.
Kirby didn't sleep as much as the others, when he was little, and
sometimes (even pre-computer) I would get up with him and set him up
with a long video tape and some food, go back to sleep. Our house
was very small, and he would be quiet because the others were sleeping.
When people asked questions about the problems the were having with
bedtimes, I would tell those stories as possible options. Years
passed, and it seemed to become "part of unschooling." I think of
it more as respect for children and a lack of arbitrary rules.
If sleep has a purpose, that should be the focus. Safety, comfort
and rest, not control and schedules. From La Leche Leagues's
recommendation of letting childen sleep with parents, we had children
who liked to sleep. Sleeping was good, and fun, and desireable.
They were never put in a room along and commanded to be quiet and sleep.
So for a family that has been doing that ("go to sleep; it's 8:00"),
it's worth them thinking about why and whether there are options.
And lately I hear more often of people saying things like "I told my
kids we were unschooling and now there are no bedtimes."
There are principles at work here. Children should feel safe and
make choices. Parents should do things for good and sensible
reasons, not for arbitrary or kneejerk reasons.
If children are made to eat when they're not hungry, and forbidden to
eat when they are hungry, that's either arbitrary or cruel. Trying
to "put children on a schedule" with eating makes sense in a culture
in which meals are formal and there's no real way to get food between
meals, or in a culture in which children are to learn they're small
and unimportant.
The same thoughts can be put onto sleep. There are situations in
which sleeping at certain times are necessary for safety (war zones,
jungles, dormitories where several people share a room...) but when
there are locked houses with electric lights and safe things to do,
and when it's possible for a child to sleep safely and comfortably
even when the sun is up, then there might be other considerations.
People of any age can learn to listen to their bodies about hunger,
thirst, needs for rest, etc. But they can't listen if someone else
is telling them whether they are or should be eating, drinking,
sleeping, or not. Learning to know ourselves is useful for other
learning, but it is not in and of itself "unschooling."
This isn't a simple subject, and it's one I'm not personally clear
on. It's hard to explain how it ties in with unschooling. I know
how our kids have grown and how good they are now at getting up when
they need to and sleeping when they need to (Holly got herself up
this morning at 7:30 to take me to a dentist's appointment involving
sedation--she drove and waited and brought me home).
What's not clear is how and whether other families can or should move
in that direction. All of a sudden is not the way, though. And "a
rule" that there can be no bedtime is the extreme opposite that there
Must be a certain by-the-clock bedtime. It's just replacing one rule
with another rule instead of examining particular ideas and exceptions.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
One of the biggest conflicts surrounding bedtimes here is brainstorming for
ideas of how to fit family time around Brian's hectic work schedule. He is
off on a different day each week and every 4 or 5 weeks he gets 4 days off
in a row. The rest of the time he is off to work in the wee hours and back
home about 7 or 7:30, at which point he may collapse for a nap or go to bed
early (depending on how tired he is). It's an awful schedule and not one
that can be changed easily without also changing jobs. He's been at this
job for several years now... close to 10. Sometimes I feel like it's just
impossible to have time together and we all need it. Brian seems to think
if I make Karl have an earlier bedtime like 8 or 9 or so, then it would all
be much better for family time. He may be right.
I would like any suggestions that people can dream up.
~Katherine
ideas of how to fit family time around Brian's hectic work schedule. He is
off on a different day each week and every 4 or 5 weeks he gets 4 days off
in a row. The rest of the time he is off to work in the wee hours and back
home about 7 or 7:30, at which point he may collapse for a nap or go to bed
early (depending on how tired he is). It's an awful schedule and not one
that can be changed easily without also changing jobs. He's been at this
job for several years now... close to 10. Sometimes I feel like it's just
impossible to have time together and we all need it. Brian seems to think
if I make Karl have an earlier bedtime like 8 or 9 or so, then it would all
be much better for family time. He may be right.
I would like any suggestions that people can dream up.
~Katherine
On 8/5/08, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-But, really, if having no bedtimes
> is making a family miserable, causing a rift between parents, etc.,
> then I'd suggest finding a way to have less rigid bedtimes with
> relaxed routines that make the evenings sweet and not filled with
> battles.-=-
>
> Yes.
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rod Thomas
We just traded in (@ gamestop) an xbox, ps2, controllers and lots of games
in exchange for a new xbox 360. It was nearly an even trade! We sure are a
lot less cluttered. But I gotta tell ya, im feeling a little lonely :-) .
The boys (10 and 15) bought halo3 and they have nearly given up eating,
sleeping, or going out (exaggerating a little). There are usually other
kids here too.
It is a pretty awesome game and they seem to have a lot of fun but the old
voices are creeping into my head and I wonder how long this will last? Even
if I could get a turn, the game is just beyond me, but I try. I must be
getting realllllly old cause im finding it hard to keep up with technology
lately. im just putting food within their reach and hangin back.
kathy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
in exchange for a new xbox 360. It was nearly an even trade! We sure are a
lot less cluttered. But I gotta tell ya, im feeling a little lonely :-) .
The boys (10 and 15) bought halo3 and they have nearly given up eating,
sleeping, or going out (exaggerating a little). There are usually other
kids here too.
It is a pretty awesome game and they seem to have a lot of fun but the old
voices are creeping into my head and I wonder how long this will last? Even
if I could get a turn, the game is just beyond me, but I try. I must be
getting realllllly old cause im finding it hard to keep up with technology
lately. im just putting food within their reach and hangin back.
kathy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
In response to
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/37015
someone wrote this to me by private e-mail. I'll respond separately.
===============================================
Dear Sandra,
I read something you posted last night about sleep and started to
respond. I decided to sit on those thoughts and to read my words
again in the morning before posting. I was surprised to see this
morning that you words had changed. It appears that you rethought
what you wrote and edited your post? I suppose you�re able to do
that as the group administrator. That seems dishonest to me,
especially since I have read many of your posts telling others to
consider their words before hitting send. I guess it just changes my
view of you as *always* eloquent and certain of your words and lowers
you to human status. <g>
I hope that you will discuss with me some of your original comments,
because I found them thought provoking. You may bring this back to
the list and quote me (within context, of course) if you choose. I
just didn�t want to call you out on the word changes publicly.
started to cut and paste pieces of what you wrote, and I�m not sure
how it goes back together.)
or otherwise controlled food, would you suggest that they ease out of
controlling food rather than stop controlling all of a sudden? Just
curious. I don�t think it would necessarily be harmful to suddenly
stop the control or scheduling (of food or sleep or anything else) as
long as the parents provided some guidance rather than left children
floundering and confused.
And "a
seems to me that any bed*time* is a by-the-clock bedtime.
I see tiredness as similar to hunger or thirst, therefore attempting
to control someone's sleep would be similar to attempting to control
someone's eating or drinking. That control doesn�t seem to fit with
the unschooling philosophy.
I provide some guidance to Quinn regarding her food intake and
sleep. I try to supply a variety of foods including proteins for her
throughout the day. If she has been too busy playing to eat and
starts getting cranky, I'll suggest that a snack might help her feel
better. If we're planning to meet friends in the morning and it's
getting late, I'll suggest going to sleep to be well rested for play
the next day. She is 3 years old and so far she's a fairly picky
eater and a night owl. <g> Thus far it has not worked out that Quinn
likes sleep even though we have always co-slept and continue to
nurse. She does take naps and goes to sleep at night as she gets
tired sometimes. More often she seems to like play more than sleep.
She often seems to will herself awake playing while her eyes are
almost closing. She stays up until the wee hours of the morning
fairly regularly even though we have some relaxed getting ready for
bed routines, make the house quiet, and turn the lights low or
sometimes play hard to burn off some energy. I trust as she gets
older she will be better able to recognize her body's cues. Perhaps
she will choose to be well nourished and rested and/or she might
choose to delay sleeping or eating to enjoy a video game, a good
book, a lover, or anything else she chooses. The engaged trust and
respect for her autonomy are how I see this fitting into
unschooling. It�s the non-coercive/ consensual living/ attentive
parenting piece of the radical/whole life unschooling philosophy.
Would you agree?
Thank you for your time, work, and dedication to unschooling. I have
learned and continue to learn so much from your list and website!
They both have helped me move closer to being the parent I want to be.
======================================================
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/37015
someone wrote this to me by private e-mail. I'll respond separately.
===============================================
Dear Sandra,
I read something you posted last night about sleep and started to
respond. I decided to sit on those thoughts and to read my words
again in the morning before posting. I was surprised to see this
morning that you words had changed. It appears that you rethought
what you wrote and edited your post? I suppose you�re able to do
that as the group administrator. That seems dishonest to me,
especially since I have read many of your posts telling others to
consider their words before hitting send. I guess it just changes my
view of you as *always* eloquent and certain of your words and lowers
you to human status. <g>
I hope that you will discuss with me some of your original comments,
because I found them thought provoking. You may bring this back to
the list and quote me (within context, of course) if you choose. I
just didn�t want to call you out on the word changes publicly.
>(Sorry if this is out of order or I left something out here. I had
> People of any age can learn to listen to their bodies about hunger,
> thirst, needs for rest, etc. But they can't listen if someone else
> is telling them whether they are or should be eating, drinking,
> sleeping, or not. Learning to know ourselves is useful for other
> learning, but it is not in and of itself "unschooling."
>
> This isn't a simple subject, and it's one I'm not personally clear
> on. It's hard to explain how it ties in with unschooling. I know
> how our kids have grown and how good they are now at getting up when
> they need to and sleeping when they need to (Holly got herself up
> this morning at 7:30 to take me to a dentist's appointment involving
> sedation--she drove and waited and brought me home).
>
started to cut and paste pieces of what you wrote, and I�m not sure
how it goes back together.)
> What's not clear is how and whether other families can or should moveIf a family was moving towards unschooling and had previously limited
> in that direction. All of a sudden is not the way, though.
or otherwise controlled food, would you suggest that they ease out of
controlling food rather than stop controlling all of a sudden? Just
curious. I don�t think it would necessarily be harmful to suddenly
stop the control or scheduling (of food or sleep or anything else) as
long as the parents provided some guidance rather than left children
floundering and confused.
And "a
> rule" that there can be no bedtime is the extreme opposite that thereexceptions.
> Must be a certain by-the-clock bedtime. It's just replacing one rule
> with another rule instead of examining particular ideas and
>I'm having trouble understanding that first sentence, because it
seems to me that any bed*time* is a by-the-clock bedtime.
I see tiredness as similar to hunger or thirst, therefore attempting
to control someone's sleep would be similar to attempting to control
someone's eating or drinking. That control doesn�t seem to fit with
the unschooling philosophy.
I provide some guidance to Quinn regarding her food intake and
sleep. I try to supply a variety of foods including proteins for her
throughout the day. If she has been too busy playing to eat and
starts getting cranky, I'll suggest that a snack might help her feel
better. If we're planning to meet friends in the morning and it's
getting late, I'll suggest going to sleep to be well rested for play
the next day. She is 3 years old and so far she's a fairly picky
eater and a night owl. <g> Thus far it has not worked out that Quinn
likes sleep even though we have always co-slept and continue to
nurse. She does take naps and goes to sleep at night as she gets
tired sometimes. More often she seems to like play more than sleep.
She often seems to will herself awake playing while her eyes are
almost closing. She stays up until the wee hours of the morning
fairly regularly even though we have some relaxed getting ready for
bed routines, make the house quiet, and turn the lights low or
sometimes play hard to burn off some energy. I trust as she gets
older she will be better able to recognize her body's cues. Perhaps
she will choose to be well nourished and rested and/or she might
choose to delay sleeping or eating to enjoy a video game, a good
book, a lover, or anything else she chooses. The engaged trust and
respect for her autonomy are how I see this fitting into
unschooling. It�s the non-coercive/ consensual living/ attentive
parenting piece of the radical/whole life unschooling philosophy.
Would you agree?
Thank you for your time, work, and dedication to unschooling. I have
learned and continue to learn so much from your list and website!
They both have helped me move closer to being the parent I want to be.
======================================================
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
I didn't, nor could I have, changed anything. It's on the yahoo
list. I could delete it, but I wouldn't. It messes up the list.
And I can't edit it.
Even if I could somehow edit what's on the list, hundreds of people
get it by e-mail.
-= I was surprised to see this morning that you words had changed.
It appears that you rethought
what you wrote and edited your post? -=-
I'm surprised at being accused of changing something. It's way more
likely that you dwelt on your impression or memory or interpretation
of what I wrote and saw it in a different light after you slept.
(Holly suggests maybe you dreamed about it.)
-=-I hope that you will discuss with me some of your original comments,
because I found them thought provoking. -=-
Private side e-mail isn't a good use of my volunteer time. It's much
better to write to a group, and it's better for those with questions
and ideas to run them by LOTS of people instead of just me.
Others can comment on the rest of it.
Sandra
list. I could delete it, but I wouldn't. It messes up the list.
And I can't edit it.
Even if I could somehow edit what's on the list, hundreds of people
get it by e-mail.
-= I was surprised to see this morning that you words had changed.
It appears that you rethought
what you wrote and edited your post? -=-
I'm surprised at being accused of changing something. It's way more
likely that you dwelt on your impression or memory or interpretation
of what I wrote and saw it in a different light after you slept.
(Holly suggests maybe you dreamed about it.)
-=-I hope that you will discuss with me some of your original comments,
because I found them thought provoking. -=-
Private side e-mail isn't a good use of my volunteer time. It's much
better to write to a group, and it's better for those with questions
and ideas to run them by LOTS of people instead of just me.
Others can comment on the rest of it.
Sandra
k
>I think it's funny that I had asked in *my* post (which has nothing to do
> I'm surprised at being accused of changing something. It's way more
> likely that you dwelt on your impression or memory or interpretation
> of what I wrote and saw it in a different light after you slept.
> (Holly suggests maybe you dreamed about it.)
with your post other than the fact that it's in the same thread) for any
suggestions that people can dream up. Maybe I don't literally want
*anything* that others can dream up. ;)
I'm not the person who wrote that email but I have certainly dreamed things
and thought they actually happened. It would be an easy mistake to assume
that a list owner could edit their posts. In some forums other than Yahoo
you *can* do that.
Sometimes the SEND button is forever, sometimes it's not. In RUN you have a
15 minute delay to edit your discussion posts which is perfect for catching
those "oh darn" spellos and such. I've noticed that comments and discussion
posts can be altogether deleted. You can delete posts in Yahoo but people
like me who get posts sent to my inbox will have gotten a copy, yeh... so
lots of people will have seen whatever comes out of the infamous SEND
button.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rebecca
This email was mine! Thanks for the clarification that things cannot
be edited. I was asking you personally to clarify my "accusation" as
it seemed far out of character. I now see that I was confusing the
following two posts...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/37015
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/37021
The latter seems to an edit of the first. Perhaps you can understand
my confusion? My sincerest apologies.
Looking forward to reading *lots of people's* comments. :-)
Again respectfully,
Rebecca
be edited. I was asking you personally to clarify my "accusation" as
it seemed far out of character. I now see that I was confusing the
following two posts...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/37015
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/37021
The latter seems to an edit of the first. Perhaps you can understand
my confusion? My sincerest apologies.
Looking forward to reading *lots of people's* comments. :-)
Again respectfully,
Rebecca
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> I didn't, nor could I have, changed anything. It's on the yahoo
> list. I could delete it, but I wouldn't. It messes up the list.
> And I can't edit it.
>
> Even if I could somehow edit what's on the list, hundreds of people
> get it by e-mail.
>
> -= I was surprised to see this morning that you words had changed.
> It appears that you rethought
> what you wrote and edited your post? -=-
>
> I'm surprised at being accused of changing something. It's way more
> likely that you dwelt on your impression or memory or interpretation
> of what I wrote and saw it in a different light after you slept.
> (Holly suggests maybe you dreamed about it.)
>
> -=-I hope that you will discuss with me some of your original comments,
> because I found them thought provoking. -=-
>
> Private side e-mail isn't a good use of my volunteer time. It's much
> better to write to a group, and it's better for those with questions
> and ideas to run them by LOTS of people instead of just me.
>
> Others can comment on the rest of it.
>
> Sandra
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-The latter seems to an edit of the first. Perhaps you can understand
my confusion? My sincerest apologies. -=-
OOOOH! I do see. I'm really sorry. I was trying to start a whole
new thread, and instead of just sending the link to the sleeping
page, I was trying to summarize the situation from years back.
http://sandradodd.com/sleeping
So I meant to delete the shorter one. Somewhere in the writing of it
I knew I was creating a new topic, so I worked on the separate-topic
one and meant to just mail that, but I think I got in a hurry to go
to sleep and sent them both or something.
I'm really sorry for the confusion. I claim both of them but the
longer one was, indeed, the more carefully edited one and the shorter
one was intended for the delete key. I'm sorry!!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
my confusion? My sincerest apologies. -=-
OOOOH! I do see. I'm really sorry. I was trying to start a whole
new thread, and instead of just sending the link to the sleeping
page, I was trying to summarize the situation from years back.
http://sandradodd.com/sleeping
So I meant to delete the shorter one. Somewhere in the writing of it
I knew I was creating a new topic, so I worked on the separate-topic
one and meant to just mail that, but I think I got in a hurry to go
to sleep and sent them both or something.
I'm really sorry for the confusion. I claim both of them but the
longer one was, indeed, the more carefully edited one and the shorter
one was intended for the delete key. I'm sorry!!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rebecca
Looks like a "learningtake" for both of us. I guess you really are
human! <g>
Rebecca
human! <g>
Rebecca
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-The latter seems to an edit of the first. Perhaps you can understand
> my confusion? My sincerest apologies. -=-
>
>
>
> OOOOH! I do see. I'm really sorry. I was trying to start a whole
> new thread, and instead of just sending the link to the sleeping
> page, I was trying to summarize the situation from years back.
>
>
>
> http://sandradodd.com/sleeping
>
>
>
> So I meant to delete the shorter one. Somewhere in the writing of it
> I knew I was creating a new topic, so I worked on the separate-topic
> one and meant to just mail that, but I think I got in a hurry to go
> to sleep and sent them both or something.
>
>
>
> I'm really sorry for the confusion. I claim both of them but the
> longer one was, indeed, the more carefully edited one and the shorter
> one was intended for the delete key. I'm sorry!!
>
>
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Judy R
The boys in this house, now 14 and 17, spent about a year on World of Warcraft before they started to do other things...they still play it some, but they also now go out with their friends and bike ride and watch movies and play rock band and all that stuff - but they really were completely immersed for that long - just a head's up? ;-) Judy R
----- Original Message -----
From: Rod Thomas
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 1:44 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] games, was sleeping
We just traded in (@ gamestop) an xbox, ps2, controllers and lots of games
in exchange for a new xbox 360. It was nearly an even trade! We sure are a
lot less cluttered. But I gotta tell ya, im feeling a little lonely :-) .
The boys (10 and 15) bought halo3 and they have nearly given up eating,
sleeping, or going out (exaggerating a little). There are usually other
kids here too.
It is a pretty awesome game and they seem to have a lot of fun but the old
voices are creeping into my head and I wonder how long this will last? Even
if I could get a turn, the game is just beyond me, but I try. I must be
getting realllllly old cause im finding it hard to keep up with technology
lately. im just putting food within their reach and hangin back.
kathy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Looks like a "learningtake" for both of us. I guess you really are
human! <g>-=-
Oh yeah.
And yesterday I had an early morning dentist's appointment involving
stupifying drugs, and came home and slept for hours, until Holly woke
me up to take her to a consultation for having her wisdom teeth out.
We went to lunch, Marty and Brett came to meet us, and I ended up
having words with Holly and refusing her company. I drove myself
home (probably shouldn't have), and went to sleep until 8:30 or so,
did stuff, checked e-mail, was still sleepy and went back to bed.
I'm glad I did no worse than posting something I should've deleted.
I HOPE I did no worse.
Last time I took such drugs, I was working on a post when they kicked
in and wrote some gibberish. I spelled beautiful "beaufle" or some
such.
Sorry to all, again.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
human! <g>-=-
Oh yeah.
And yesterday I had an early morning dentist's appointment involving
stupifying drugs, and came home and slept for hours, until Holly woke
me up to take her to a consultation for having her wisdom teeth out.
We went to lunch, Marty and Brett came to meet us, and I ended up
having words with Holly and refusing her company. I drove myself
home (probably shouldn't have), and went to sleep until 8:30 or so,
did stuff, checked e-mail, was still sleepy and went back to bed.
I'm glad I did no worse than posting something I should've deleted.
I HOPE I did no worse.
Last time I took such drugs, I was working on a post when they kicked
in and wrote some gibberish. I spelled beautiful "beaufle" or some
such.
Sorry to all, again.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-The boys in this house, now 14 and 17, spent about a year on World
of Warcraft before they started to do other things...they still play
it some, but they also now go out with their friends and bike ride
and watch movies and play rock band and all that stuff - but they
really were completely immersed for that long - just a head's up? ;-)
Judy R-=-
Kirby played it a LOT and now works for the company that owns it,
which is also now owned by the company that does Guitar Hero.
Holly has a boyfriend who is the head of a guild that raids four
times a week (this is some high-level play) and he works his schedule
around those sessions, which range from two to five hours long
(Sunday there's an officers meeting after the raid). He told me
today that Holly's the first person in his life who's been accepting
and supportive of his WoW activity. I told him she goes around the
house telling us not to download, not to watch videos, to be quiet. <g>
Up until a few weeks ago, he used to go to the house where he lived
with other friends to play WoW, but now he's moved his computer over
here.
A couple of things contribute to our acceptance of a hobby like that:
1) our experience with Kirby
2) the fact that Keith has played SCA for thirty two years or so, and
that takes WAY more time and money than World of Warcraft, involves
driving to other states and camping and getting physically hurt.
There are pros to SCA activity (exercise, music, food), but we do
understand obsession with projects, and the joy of leading groups
(whether in melees or wars or feast preparation or madrigal singing).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
of Warcraft before they started to do other things...they still play
it some, but they also now go out with their friends and bike ride
and watch movies and play rock band and all that stuff - but they
really were completely immersed for that long - just a head's up? ;-)
Judy R-=-
Kirby played it a LOT and now works for the company that owns it,
which is also now owned by the company that does Guitar Hero.
Holly has a boyfriend who is the head of a guild that raids four
times a week (this is some high-level play) and he works his schedule
around those sessions, which range from two to five hours long
(Sunday there's an officers meeting after the raid). He told me
today that Holly's the first person in his life who's been accepting
and supportive of his WoW activity. I told him she goes around the
house telling us not to download, not to watch videos, to be quiet. <g>
Up until a few weeks ago, he used to go to the house where he lived
with other friends to play WoW, but now he's moved his computer over
here.
A couple of things contribute to our acceptance of a hobby like that:
1) our experience with Kirby
2) the fact that Keith has played SCA for thirty two years or so, and
that takes WAY more time and money than World of Warcraft, involves
driving to other states and camping and getting physically hurt.
There are pros to SCA activity (exercise, music, food), but we do
understand obsession with projects, and the joy of leading groups
(whether in melees or wars or feast preparation or madrigal singing).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- It’s the non-coercive/ consensual living/ attentive parenting
piece of the radical/whole life unschooling philosophy. Would you
agree?-=-
I don't want to agree with terminology I don't use myself.
A three year old is too young to stay up alone (although Kirby used
to be wiling to sit in a high chair until he fell asleep there, if
that's how I'd let him watch videos), so think creating an
atmosphere that hardly leaves any options is not at all cheating. If
there's a movie she will watch in a darkened room, quietly, and will
fall asleep to, play that movie every night, if it works. If she
feels she has made the choice to watch her favorite movie and ends up
asleep, then she's asleep and wasn't "made to go to sleep."
Sandra
piece of the radical/whole life unschooling philosophy. Would you
agree?-=-
I don't want to agree with terminology I don't use myself.
A three year old is too young to stay up alone (although Kirby used
to be wiling to sit in a high chair until he fell asleep there, if
that's how I'd let him watch videos), so think creating an
atmosphere that hardly leaves any options is not at all cheating. If
there's a movie she will watch in a darkened room, quietly, and will
fall asleep to, play that movie every night, if it works. If she
feels she has made the choice to watch her favorite movie and ends up
asleep, then she's asleep and wasn't "made to go to sleep."
Sandra
Rebecca
>That's fair. How about it's the attentive parenting piece of radical
> I don't want to agree with terminology I don't use myself.
>
unschooling?
> A three year old is too young to stay up alone (although Kirby usedAgreed. I stay up with her. The only times I've ever gone to sleep
> to be wiling to sit in a high chair until he fell asleep there, if
> that's how I'd let him watch videos), so think creating an
> atmosphere that hardly leaves any options is not at all cheating. If
> there's a movie she will watch in a darkened room, quietly, and will
> fall asleep to, play that movie every night, if it works. If she
> feels she has made the choice to watch her favorite movie and ends up
> asleep, then she's asleep and wasn't "made to go to sleep."
while she was up alone were when she was next to me on the couch while
we're watching television. I'm only comfortable doing that when I
know she is very tired and because I'm a light sleeper. Watching a
movie does work for us sometimes when she wants to watch television.
I find The Documentary Channel works well for inducing sleep in Quinn
if she's too tired to care what we're watching.
Rebecca
Kelli Traaseth
***The boys in this house, now 14 and 17, spent about a year on World of
Warcraft before they started to do other things...they still play it
some, but they also now go out with their friends and bike ride and
watch movies and play rock band and all that stuff - but they really
were completely immersed for that long - just a head's up? ;-)****
Yes it is a very in depth game. Lots of fun stuff to do and figure out :) You and your kids may love it or you may not. We've had friends who have played and loved it and we've also had some friends who just dabble in it a bit and then move onto something else.
Our family still plays, mostly my son who is in a raiding guild, which means he gets together with his guild usually about 4 nights a week and does group instances. Like what Sandra said Holly's boyfriend does.
I wanted to give a head's up to people who are interested in playing or checking it out. Right now they're having a referral special, I believe you can get a 10 day free trial, from someone who is already playing. They have some nice bonuses for the beginner and for the person who did the referral. Details are here: https://www.worldofwarcraft.com/index.xml
Kelli~
http://ourjoyfullife.blogspot.com/%c2%a0
"There are no ordinary moments." Dan Millman, Peaceful Warrior
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Warcraft before they started to do other things...they still play it
some, but they also now go out with their friends and bike ride and
watch movies and play rock band and all that stuff - but they really
were completely immersed for that long - just a head's up? ;-)****
Yes it is a very in depth game. Lots of fun stuff to do and figure out :) You and your kids may love it or you may not. We've had friends who have played and loved it and we've also had some friends who just dabble in it a bit and then move onto something else.
Our family still plays, mostly my son who is in a raiding guild, which means he gets together with his guild usually about 4 nights a week and does group instances. Like what Sandra said Holly's boyfriend does.
I wanted to give a head's up to people who are interested in playing or checking it out. Right now they're having a referral special, I believe you can get a 10 day free trial, from someone who is already playing. They have some nice bonuses for the beginner and for the person who did the referral. Details are here: https://www.worldofwarcraft.com/index.xml
Kelli~
http://ourjoyfullife.blogspot.com/%c2%a0
"There are no ordinary moments." Dan Millman, Peaceful Warrior
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Brad Holcomb
>A three year old is too young to stay up alone (although Kirby usedI bought a PMP (portable media player) for our son about a year ago. It's a
>to be wiling to sit in a high chair until he fell asleep there, if
>that's how I'd let him watch videos), so think creating an
>atmosphere that hardly leaves any options is not at all cheating. If
>there's a movie she will watch in a darkened room, quietly, and will
>fall asleep to, play that movie every night, if it works
Cowon A2, similar to a video ipod but more functionality, and I convert all
of his favorite TiVo recordings and DVD's to avi files and have it loaded up
with them. It's awesome for car and plane rides (no hassling with discs,
10+ hours of battery for video). He's 3.5 y/o now, and we all cosleep, and
at least a couple nights a week he takes it to bed with him. There's a
Sleep Timer on it that I can set for 60 minutes, since he's usually asleep
before that, and the device shuts itself off. It takes a little time (30
mins of elapsed converting time on the computer, not 30 mins of effort) to
put a new show on the player, so we still have the occasional brand new TiVo
recording that's not yet on his player and he wants to stay up late to watch
it, but that's pretty rare. And when it happens, usually I'll just cuddle
up on a chaise with him and watch it too, or have my laptop handy and do
something else while he watches. Recently he started preferring to use
headphones so the sound from the PMP in bed doesn't bother us at all (even
without the headphones, he's happy with very low volume in a dark/quiet
bedroom).
We've never had an imposed bedtime in our house, trusting since his birth
that he'll simply sleep when he's sleepy. Yes we have to nudge him
sometimes when he's yawning and tired and a little cranky but wanting to do
One More Thing. We just say we're tired and start moving toward
tooth-brushing and other nightly routines, and he'll start gathering up his
favorite toys (and PMP, just in case) to take to bed with him. Usually he
wants to carry more toys to bed than his arms will hold, so asks us for help
since he doesn't want to make multiple trips down the hall. So part of
pre-bed routine is me spreading out a towel on the living room floor for him
to load the toys so I can make an easy-to-carry bundle.
Bedtimes also look different in our house Mon-Wed than the rest of the week,
since I'm often out of town on those nights for business. He and mom
usually go to bed about 9pm (especially recently since she's 8 months
pregnant). Thurs-Sun (and other nights if I'm home) she goes to bed around
9 or 10, but I'm up until midnight or 1. And he makes his own decision,
which usually involves settling in with mom but then coming out a half hour
later to see if I'm doing anything interesting, then back to bed with her.
And sometimes he falls asleep in the office or living room with me, and
other times stays up with me super-late. When we have to get up super-early
for something, it usually involves a car ride so if he hasn't slept enough
he'll just nap in the car. And if he slept less than 9 or 10 hours the
night before, he'll usually take a 2-hour nap mid-day. We sometimes
encourage a nap by settling him on the couch with a video and snack, but
usually we just notice a sudden calm in the house and will find him asleep
on the floor in the hall or living room. There's no drama about sleep in
our house.
--
Brad in Boulder, CO
http://holcombs.org
Sandra Dodd
> I don't want to agree with terminology I don't use myself.-=-That's fair. How about it's the attentive parenting piece of
radical
unschooling? -=-
How about this?
http://sandradodd.com/life
It's a small part of the way unschooling is lived fully. But it's
about why and how, not about what and when.
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
Brad's ideas are GREAT, and of course modern technology beats the
heck out of what I had in the late 80's when Kirby was little.
Holly could listen to a CD in the bed and that was good. Marty used
to listen to one certain cassette tape, intended for drawing pictures
of circus scenes. He wouldn't last ten minutes. But the bad thing
about cassette players is they're noisy when they turn off.
We drove Kirby to sleep many times. And both Kirby and Marty have
often fallen asleep on the floor next to where I was working on the
computer, just to be near me. When Holly was a baby I had a job at
home that involved phone calls and lots of writing, and it was nice
that they could still be leaning on me or touching me or playing
where I was.
Sandra
heck out of what I had in the late 80's when Kirby was little.
Holly could listen to a CD in the bed and that was good. Marty used
to listen to one certain cassette tape, intended for drawing pictures
of circus scenes. He wouldn't last ten minutes. But the bad thing
about cassette players is they're noisy when they turn off.
We drove Kirby to sleep many times. And both Kirby and Marty have
often fallen asleep on the floor next to where I was working on the
computer, just to be near me. When Holly was a baby I had a job at
home that involved phone calls and lots of writing, and it was nice
that they could still be leaning on me or touching me or playing
where I was.
Sandra
Rebecca
A friend lent us some of The Growler Tapes. Think story telling of
mysteries without a narrator and with lots of sound effects. Sometimes
Quinn is in more of a visual than audio mood and isn't interested in
the tapes (actually CDs). When she listens to them though, she seems
to nod off quicker than watching something. There are 2 sets of
Growler Tapes designed for ages 4-10 and ages 6-12.
Rebecca
in Englewood, CO
mysteries without a narrator and with lots of sound effects. Sometimes
Quinn is in more of a visual than audio mood and isn't interested in
the tapes (actually CDs). When she listens to them though, she seems
to nod off quicker than watching something. There are 2 sets of
Growler Tapes designed for ages 4-10 and ages 6-12.
Rebecca
in Englewood, CO
Jenny C
> Holly could listen to a CD in the bed and that was good. Marty usedChamille had a cassette tape that we'd put on auto flip, so that it
> to listen to one certain cassette tape, intended for drawing pictures
> of circus scenes. He wouldn't last ten minutes. But the bad thing
> about cassette players is they're noisy when they turn off.
would go indefinitely until we went and turned it off. It was always
the same cassette, or usually the same one. There were 3 that she would
fall asleep to, one was called Slumber Land, one was called Sidewalk
Stories, which had some lively parts so wasn't something that worked all
the time, and one was a tape by Penguin Cafe Orchestra, which worked
best for naps rather than night time.
Sleep patterns are so fleeting though. It seems they change all the
time. In my experience, once we establish some sort of sleep pattern,
it changes because life changes. Chamille was an awesome sleeper when
she was little, there was never any trouble with her falling asleep, now
she will stay up all night sometimes and sleep all day. Margaux has
always been difficult with sleep, even as a tiny baby. She never took
naps except for the occasional falling asleep while nursing, she almost
never fell asleep in the car, nor would she stay asleep if she was moved
either out of my nursing arms or out of her car seat, etc. She has
always gravitated to having her sleep pattern be what others in the
house are, so if I stay up late, she will, if I go to bed early she will
do what is lively with the other members of our family. Sleep seems to
be low on her priority, and she doesn't seem to need as much as most
kids her age (6).
It's something that we are ever trying to work with. It can be hard to
never ever have a time when I or my husband are not on call as a parent,
but it is what it is, so we try to make it as fun and joyful as
possible. It would be great if Margaux would just go to sleep
sometimes! We try to have a bedtime routine, but sometimes that doesn't
happen until after midnight because to do it before that would be met
with conflict. We use movies a LOT to help her fall asleep, because it
allows her to stay awake as long as she wants, but in a sleep conducive
atmoshpere. She will almost always watch the whole movie and want
another. I often fall asleep before her.
Sandra Dodd
-=-. It can be hard to
never ever have a time when I or my husband are not on call as a parent,
but it is what it is, so we try to make it as fun and joyful as
possible. -=-
The time will come.
Ren Allen just did a blog carnival on normal unschooling days, and I
was feeling pretty guilty because my day was so kid-free compared to
those with little kids.
I don't know if you can read on this site without registering, but in
case you can, it's here:
http://familyrun.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=2184370%3ABlogPost%
3A11385
and there's a follow-up (that evening and the day after)
http://familyrun.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=2184370%3ABlogPost%
3A13244
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
never ever have a time when I or my husband are not on call as a parent,
but it is what it is, so we try to make it as fun and joyful as
possible. -=-
The time will come.
Ren Allen just did a blog carnival on normal unschooling days, and I
was feeling pretty guilty because my day was so kid-free compared to
those with little kids.
I don't know if you can read on this site without registering, but in
case you can, it's here:
http://familyrun.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=2184370%3ABlogPost%
3A11385
and there's a follow-up (that evening and the day after)
http://familyrun.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=2184370%3ABlogPost%
3A13244
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Melissa Dietrick
Though we're new to unschooling philosophy (short of 3 years), this
idea of sleep as some thing to control is foreign to us. I think that
like sandra, it must sort of flow naturally from the cosleeping
aspect...I had read The Continuum Concept, but I dont recall anything
specific about "no sleep rules" there.
The rare occations that a small child wants to be up later than the
rest of us, I usually keep him company--we go outside to see what it
is like, we get a drink of milk andor a bite to eat. Last night
Gioele my 2.75yo fell asleep early-6pmish and wanted to eat at
midnight: in the end milk was enough for him but we piggybacked out of
bed, and had the snack irregardless of the hour.
Mostly we go to sleep at a regular 10:30ish time, and we all spend
some time together after eating talking, watching a video or I will
read a story out loud: my 10 year old Raffi will still beg me to read
rather than watch a video, and my 14yo Matteo still will join in to
listen on our bed...Naps too, they just happen when they happen, not
when I decide they are needed. I tend to nap every afternoon, but not
always my children do: they are very careful to be quiet, though at
times they do forget in their excitement. And sometimes my children
nap and I do not...and I am just as careful to be quiet.
I dont know, its all a rather natural flowing sort of thing.
I guess it is much like strewing or the concept of unschooling--forced
learning is not *really* learning- it is a travesty of learning, for
the children end up "doing the learning" for the wrong reasons (fear
of punishment, or desire for the carrot)--
forced sleeping just doesnt make sense: it isnt really sleeping I
would think--okay Im babbling, so im off for now!
melissa in italy
mamma of 7
who waves to brad and family in colorado,
there has never been a struggle here either,
... We sometimes
idea of sleep as some thing to control is foreign to us. I think that
like sandra, it must sort of flow naturally from the cosleeping
aspect...I had read The Continuum Concept, but I dont recall anything
specific about "no sleep rules" there.
The rare occations that a small child wants to be up later than the
rest of us, I usually keep him company--we go outside to see what it
is like, we get a drink of milk andor a bite to eat. Last night
Gioele my 2.75yo fell asleep early-6pmish and wanted to eat at
midnight: in the end milk was enough for him but we piggybacked out of
bed, and had the snack irregardless of the hour.
Mostly we go to sleep at a regular 10:30ish time, and we all spend
some time together after eating talking, watching a video or I will
read a story out loud: my 10 year old Raffi will still beg me to read
rather than watch a video, and my 14yo Matteo still will join in to
listen on our bed...Naps too, they just happen when they happen, not
when I decide they are needed. I tend to nap every afternoon, but not
always my children do: they are very careful to be quiet, though at
times they do forget in their excitement. And sometimes my children
nap and I do not...and I am just as careful to be quiet.
I dont know, its all a rather natural flowing sort of thing.
I guess it is much like strewing or the concept of unschooling--forced
learning is not *really* learning- it is a travesty of learning, for
the children end up "doing the learning" for the wrong reasons (fear
of punishment, or desire for the carrot)--
forced sleeping just doesnt make sense: it isnt really sleeping I
would think--okay Im babbling, so im off for now!
melissa in italy
mamma of 7
who waves to brad and family in colorado,
there has never been a struggle here either,
... We sometimes
> encourage a nap by settling him on the couch with a video and snack, butasleep
> usually we just notice a sudden calm in the house and will find him
> on the floor in the hall or living room. There's no drama aboutsleep in
> our house.-- Brad in Boulder, CO
Jenny C
> -=-. It can be hard toparent,
> never ever have a time when I or my husband are not on call as a
> but it is what it is, so we try to make it as fun and joyful asYes I know the time will come. I have Chamille who is older now and I
> possible. -=-
>
>
>
> The time will come.
>
> Ren Allen just did a blog carnival on normal unschooling days, and I
> was feeling pretty guilty because my day was so kid-free compared to
> those with little kids.
can see that with some of her friends and families, things are more
mellow and focused on older kid activities with less direct involvement
from the parents.
I don't really strive for less direct involvment. However it would be
nice, and I think about the future days when I don't have to accompany
my younger child to the bathroom. I will probably miss all the hubbub
once she's older though!
That is why I breathe deep and put a smile on my face and just do for
her because it doesn't last forever. The little act changes my focus to
being attentive lovingly. If I forget, I go with a grudge sometimes and
that's no good for anyone!
The kids grow so fast, only a couple of years ago I had to change
diapers! It's easy to forget to put it in perspective when you are in
the throws of children needing you all the time!
Sandra Dodd
-=-The kids grow so fast, only a couple of years ago I had to change
diapers!-=-
I don't need to drive my kids anywhere anymore. Yesterday I was
going to drive. Holly and I were going shopping for (brace
yourselves) a strapless bra for her to wear to a wedding. And I
needed to send some copies of Moving a Puddle... it was post office
day. I was going to drive because our car was in front of another
car and it took a tricky maneuver.
Tricky maneuver failed. The car wouldn't start at all. So Holly
went to ask if she could borrow her boyfriend's car which is a climb-
up-into-it SUV, and so she drove and I rode.
And I used to change her diapers and carry her around and wipe her
face and tie her shoes.
I miss those days. I will miss these days someday.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
diapers!-=-
I don't need to drive my kids anywhere anymore. Yesterday I was
going to drive. Holly and I were going shopping for (brace
yourselves) a strapless bra for her to wear to a wedding. And I
needed to send some copies of Moving a Puddle... it was post office
day. I was going to drive because our car was in front of another
car and it took a tricky maneuver.
Tricky maneuver failed. The car wouldn't start at all. So Holly
went to ask if she could borrow her boyfriend's car which is a climb-
up-into-it SUV, and so she drove and I rode.
And I used to change her diapers and carry her around and wipe her
face and tie her shoes.
I miss those days. I will miss these days someday.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]