Kathy and Jamie

So, we've been unschooling from birth. I have a 14, 12, 8 and 6yo. The
14yo was in Kindie for 3 months before dropping out (we never made him
go on the occasions he didn't want to go and he was "falling behind"
(which was ridiculous to me as it should be impossible to fall behind in
Kindie, but that is the state of the school system these days and 9
years ago)).

We used to live in the US and could visit libraries and take occasional
classes and interact with other families but we have been living in
Mexico for over a year now and it just seems to me that the kids are not
getting exposed like the used to. We traveled (RV) for 3 years before
we put down roots in Mexico and they got a lot of culture and history
that way but this past year they just seem to be stagnating (IMO).
They're not complaining as long as they have unlimited computer and
internet access.

So I'm thinking that unschooling, the way we've always done it, is not
enriching their lives. Because I honestly don't see (and the 12 and 14
yo will agree, though they may be telling me what they think I want to
hear to some degree) that playing Age of Empires and Runescape are
really opening them to new experiences, ideas and concepts. And I don't
see how it prepares them for the outside world.
The boys (12 and 14) do not know how to multiply. They do not know
fractions or decimals or percents. Their math is limited to converting
pesos to dollars and dollars to pesos, which is a skill that is useful,
and can make change (but I don't think they could make change in US
coins and I know the girls have no idea what quarters, dimes and nickels
are but do know pesos and centavos). Making change is a HUGE skill and
I'm glad for that but they are really limited in their mad math skillz.
I introduced the concept of opening themselves to new concepts and
challenging themselves and they both decided they wanted (though I truly
doubt they would have considered the idea themselves and thought it a
lovely idea) to do the Teaching Textbooks curriculum and have been doing
it daily. They listen to the lesson without complaint and do as much
work as they decide they need to do. They seem to be getting
satisfaction from the exposure to new concepts and self esteem from
mastering a new skill. And I see all that as positive.

So, I'm thinking of further curriculum. The girls (8 and 6) are easy -
they want to work on cursive (I already have books I've purchased
(Spanish) down here that they adore) and math. So I got some math
workbooks and have Singapore books coming for them and we'll do whatever
they want to do. Neither girl is reading
but that doesn't concern me as the boys learned to read without any
"lessons" or manipulation on my part and I can see the same signs in the
girls. The 8yo just started doing inventive spelling, so no worries
there, though I did purchase some Explode the Code books because I know
how much they enjoy workbooks and I like to have a variety around for
them. I've looked into stuff and I'm pretty convinced I'll buy stuff
and if nothing else, I'm going to learn about Ancient Cultures and delve
into Latin (my 14yo expressed a desire to learn Latin) and hone my mad
writing skilz.
So my question is how much to push curriculum/learning/academics on
them? They have no opportunities here (Mexico) for two reasons, they
refuse to learn Spanish (and as such are limited to the people they can
communicate with) and opportunities just don't exist here for
homeschooling resources. The math leads me to believe that very slow
exposure, supported by confidence built by mastery can only enrich their
lives but am I convincing myself because I feel "safer" for their
futures if they can show mastery of society's accepted skills (3 R's)?
I feel like I've walked the walk but now that it isn't so easy and the
kids are getting older I'm falling for the "unschooling won't provide a
good foundation" argument. I'm mostly talking about the boys here (12
and 14) and not the girls (8 and 6).

Any ideas, input?

Sandra Dodd

I don't like these two statements in the same piece of writing:

"So, we've been unschooling from birth."

and

"So I'm thinking that unschooling, the way we've always done it, is
not enriching their lives....I don't see how it prepares them for the
outside world."



Also you wrote:

-=- I have a 14, 12, 8 and 6yo. The 14yo was in Kindie for 3 months
before dropping out (we never made him go on the occasions he didn't
want to go and he was "falling behind" (which was ridiculous to me as
it should be impossible to fall behind in Kindie, but that is the
state of the school system these days and 9 years ago)).-=-

The 14 year old wasn't in kindergarten at birth, so I don't think you
were unschooling for 14 years.



-=-this past year they just seem to be stagnating (IMO). They're not
complaining as long as they have unlimited computer and internet
access.-=-

What have *you* been doing for the past year, besides wishing they
weren't playing computer games?



-=-Making change is a HUGE skill -=-

It was very important 40 years ago.

And it's not a big deal.



-=-I introduced the concept of opening themselves to new concepts and
challenging themselves -=-

Just lately? You just introduced the concept of new concepts?

-=-they both decided they wanted (though I truly doubt they would
have considered the idea themselves and thought it a lovely idea) to
do the Teaching Textbooks curriculum and have been doing it daily.
They listen to the lesson without complaint and do as much work as
they decide they need to do. They seem to be getting satisfaction
from the exposure to new concepts and self esteem from mastering a
new skill. And I see all that as positive.-=-

So you're not unschooling anymore.

-=-So my question is how much to push curriculum/learning/academics
on them?-=-

You have come to the wrong list for an answer to that. If you're
going to use a curriculum and have lessons, do it however you want
to, or go to a homeschooling list where people think that's the way
to go. There must be hundreds of those.

-=-They have no opportunities here (Mexico) for two reasons, they
refuse to learn Spanish (and as such are limited to the people they
can communicate with) and opportunities just don't exist here for
homeschooling resources. -=-

Any possibility of moving to an English speaking place so your kids
can learn more easily? But they have contact with other people on
the internet. Why can't you find a way to see that as a positive?
And I bet those games they're playing are harder than that textbook.

I don't know where to start with explanations about how the skills
needed for games are those used in real-world situations. I'm
guessing you haven't been reading this list, and so I'd be repeating
things. Some is here:

http://sandradodd.com/videogames



-=-I feel like I've walked the walk but now that it isn't so easy and
the kids are getting older I'm falling for the "unschooling won't
provide a good foundation" argument.-=-

It sounds more to me like you talked the talk in a recitative kind of
way without really understanding it deeply enough that you enriched
their lives to the point that natural learning would be flowing so
fast you couldn't stop it.

-=- I'm falling for the "unschooling won't provide a good foundation"
argument-=-

Where are you hearing that argument? Not on this list.

I don't think unschooling can work in a situation in which the kids'
interests aren't seen as valuable by the parents, or where the
parents don't lead sparkly busy lives that inspire learning. When
unschooling isn't working well, I don't think the family should claim
"unschooling since birth." It will discourage those who are reading
here trying to decide whether and how they can unschool.

http://sandradodd.com/nest

http://sandradodd.com/screwitup



Those might help if you came here to find encouragement to go back to
unschooling.



Sandra






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kathy and Jamie

Do you intend to come across as a holier-than-thou and unaccepting? If
so, message and sarcasm received loud and clear. I see by your links
that you see yourself as some kind of unschooling guru, so perhaps that
is where your attitude (perceived or not) comes into play.

If this is the prevailing list attitude I'll take my leave. I don't see
the need to reply to any of your statements as I honestly can't see that
any of them were intended as anything other than fodder for your
amusement.

Sandra Dodd wrote:
>
> I don't like these two statements in the same piece of writing:
>
> "So, we've been unschooling from birth."
>
> and
>
> "So I'm thinking that unschooling, the way we've always done it, is
> not enriching their lives....I don't see how it prepares them for the
> outside world."
>
> Also you wrote:
>
> -=- I have a 14, 12, 8 and 6yo. The 14yo was in Kindie for 3 months
> before dropping out (we never made him go on the occasions he didn't
> want to go and he was "falling behind" (which was ridiculous to me as
> it should be impossible to fall behind in Kindie, but that is the
> state of the school system these days and 9 years ago)).-=-
>
> The 14 year old wasn't in kindergarten at birth, so I don't think you
> were unschooling for 14 years.
>
> -=-this past year they just seem to be stagnating (IMO). They're not
> complaining as long as they have unlimited computer and internet
> access.-=-
>
> What have *you* been doing for the past year, besides wishing they
> weren't playing computer games?
>
> -=-Making change is a HUGE skill -=-
>
> It was very important 40 years ago.
>
> And it's not a big deal.
>
> -=-I introduced the concept of opening themselves to new concepts and
> challenging themselves -=-
>
> Just lately? You just introduced the concept of new concepts?
>
> -=-they both decided they wanted (though I truly doubt they would
> have considered the idea themselves and thought it a lovely idea) to
> do the Teaching Textbooks curriculum and have been doing it daily.
> They listen to the lesson without complaint and do as much work as
> they decide they need to do. They seem to be getting satisfaction
> from the exposure to new concepts and self esteem from mastering a
> new skill. And I see all that as positive.-=-
>
> So you're not unschooling anymore.
>
> -=-So my question is how much to push curriculum/learning/academics
> on them?-=-
>
> You have come to the wrong list for an answer to that. If you're
> going to use a curriculum and have lessons, do it however you want
> to, or go to a homeschooling list where people think that's the way
> to go. There must be hundreds of those.
>
> -=-They have no opportunities here (Mexico) for two reasons, they
> refuse to learn Spanish (and as such are limited to the people they
> can communicate with) and opportunities just don't exist here for
> homeschooling resources. -=-
>
> Any possibility of moving to an English speaking place so your kids
> can learn more easily? But they have contact with other people on
> the internet. Why can't you find a way to see that as a positive?
> And I bet those games they're playing are harder than that textbook.
>
> I don't know where to start with explanations about how the skills
> needed for games are those used in real-world situations. I'm
> guessing you haven't been reading this list, and so I'd be repeating
> things. Some is here:
>
> http://sandradodd.com/videogames <http://sandradodd.com/videogames>
>
> -=-I feel like I've walked the walk but now that it isn't so easy and
> the kids are getting older I'm falling for the "unschooling won't
> provide a good foundation" argument.-=-
>
> It sounds more to me like you talked the talk in a recitative kind of
> way without really understanding it deeply enough that you enriched
> their lives to the point that natural learning would be flowing so
> fast you couldn't stop it.
>
> -=- I'm falling for the "unschooling won't provide a good foundation"
> argument-=-
>
> Where are you hearing that argument? Not on this list.
>
> I don't think unschooling can work in a situation in which the kids'
> interests aren't seen as valuable by the parents, or where the
> parents don't lead sparkly busy lives that inspire learning. When
> unschooling isn't working well, I don't think the family should claim
> "unschooling since birth." It will discourage those who are reading
> here trying to decide whether and how they can unschool.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/nest <http://sandradodd.com/nest>
>
> http://sandradodd.com/screwitup <http://sandradodd.com/screwitup>
>
> Those might help if you came here to find encouragement to go back to
> unschooling.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

Kris

Unschooling is just a term but it encompasses more than just the act of
learning. I don't have to see a certain level of learning to trust my
child, most important is protecting their *confidence* in their learning.
My daughter, 17, has no doubt about her ability to research and learn the
answer to ANYTHING. My main objection to school, curriculum, tests, etc. is
that they undermine this.

I don't think you've lost confidence in unschooling, you're listening to the
same ideas that you've never actually let go. You want to be reassured by
"teaching" but you won't find anyone here to offer that.

I am a lifelong learner, we all are, learning is inescapable, but some of us
enjoy and nurture it more. If I had to choose one avenue to satisfy my love
of learning it would be a computer with internet. I would shun schools,
libraries and any other bastion of "education" and opt for my laptop.

I am in control of the internet and it's expanse is unlimited, changing by
the second. I haven't encountered an idea or question that I couldn't
expand with some searching. As for video games, those who don't recognize
their worth usually don't play, my son (10) taught himself to read playing.

My child could spend a lifetime being educated in as many fields as possible
and not be a breath closer to being prepared for life as they would be
knowing how to learn what they need. More importantly, a person raised to
trust themselves to learn, will pick up the information they need with
greater ease and speed.

My advice would be to leave your kids alone and begin learning about
unschooling. Instead of looking to question the validity of learning
naturally, look to question the validity of "education". Does it make sense
to study that which doesn't capture the attention well enough to trigger
research? Does it make sense to have someone tell you that what you are
learning is valuable or not? Does it make sense to spend so much valuable
time and enthusiasm learning what you won't need (unless you just enjoy
learning it)?

Kris
--
Friendship is unnecessary, like philosophy, like art... It has no survival
value; rather it is one of those things that give value to survival.
C. S. Lewis


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kathy and Jamie

Yes, I understand that unschooling has nothing to do with academics. We
have never encouraged the kids to do any academics; my 12yo taught
himself to read at 10 by playing Runescape, the 8yo and 6yo are still
not reading and it doesn't concern me as I have seen all 4 get what the
need thus far from living life. Both boys have expressed a desire to go
to college however, and I see that as problematic for two reasons. I
would like to make their entry into college as easy as possible and part
of that I see as honing mathematics and writing skills. The second
problem I see is that college seems to be a desire mainly because
they're not exactly sure WHAT to do and know that many kids choose
college after schooling.

I do see value in doing some type of curriculum as it will allow them to
decide if the subject interests them, it will allow them to see what
academics is about (and as such, they might have a greater ability to
decide if college is indeed their desire) and probably other stuff we
won't know until we try.

I worry that we're aren't doing enough to provide them what they need to
be happy and successful in whatever they decide they want to achieve,
especially since they say they desire to attend college. If that ends
up being what they want I would like to facilitate that to my best
ability. I also worry that they are stagnating here as they would
prefer to stay inside all day, avoid outside contact and play on the
computer. Well, not all day, because their current schedule is to stay
up til dawn on the computer and sleep all day. I've talked to them
about my concerns and they've started getting up around 3pm so they can
at least be with the family during our waking hours and participate in
our day a bit. The schedule isn't really an issue, but it does speak to
the limitation of their inability to participate in society.

I guess it just boils down to the fact that I don't think we're doing
enough and I'm not exactly sure what it is that we need to do.

Kris wrote:
>
> Unschooling is just a term but it encompasses more than just the act of
> learning. I don't have to see a certain level of learning to trust my
> child, most important is protecting their *confidence* in their learning.
> My daughter, 17, has no doubt about her ability to research and learn the
> answer to ANYTHING. My main objection to school, curriculum, tests,
> etc. is
> that they undermine this.
>
> I don't think you've lost confidence in unschooling, you're listening
> to the
> same ideas that you've never actually let go. You want to be reassured by
> "teaching" but you won't find anyone here to offer that.
>
> I am a lifelong learner, we all are, learning is inescapable, but some
> of us
> enjoy and nurture it more. If I had to choose one avenue to satisfy my
> love
> of learning it would be a computer with internet. I would shun schools,
> libraries and any other bastion of "education" and opt for my laptop.
>
> I am in control of the internet and it's expanse is unlimited, changing by
> the second. I haven't encountered an idea or question that I couldn't
> expand with some searching. As for video games, those who don't recognize
> their worth usually don't play, my son (10) taught himself to read
> playing.
>
> My child could spend a lifetime being educated in as many fields as
> possible
> and not be a breath closer to being prepared for life as they would be
> knowing how to learn what they need. More importantly, a person raised to
> trust themselves to learn, will pick up the information they need with
> greater ease and speed.
>
> My advice would be to leave your kids alone and begin learning about
> unschooling. Instead of looking to question the validity of learning
> naturally, look to question the validity of "education". Does it make
> sense
> to study that which doesn't capture the attention well enough to trigger
> research? Does it make sense to have someone tell you that what you are
> learning is valuable or not? Does it make sense to spend so much valuable
> time and enthusiasm learning what you won't need (unless you just enjoy
> learning it)?
>
> Kris
> --
> Friendship is unnecessary, like philosophy, like art... It has no survival
> value; rather it is one of those things that give value to survival.
> C. S. Lewis
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-Do you intend to come across as a holier-than-thou and
unaccepting? If
so, message and sarcasm received loud and clear. I see by your links
that you see yourself as some kind of unschooling guru, so perhaps that
is where your attitude (perceived or not) comes into play.-=-



I hope it feels good for you to see your complaints out on the list.
I could've just deleted it, but here it is.

-=-Do you intend to come across as a holier-than-thou and
unaccepting? -=-

Discussing curriculum and the failure of parents to understand
unschooling isn't the purpose of this list at all. I didn't realize
you had posted the very day you joined. It's never a good idea on
any list to do that. I assumed you had been reading for a while and
still asked your questions as you did.

Within the topic of this list, I have no reason to be "accepting" of
people claiming to understand unschooling and then telling us it's
not working. Why would anyone want to spend so many hours for so
many years to provide a website and a list for the purpose of
providing a platform for discouraging those who want to get better at
unschooling?

I'm the list owner, and there are over a thousand people on the
list. It's a very active list.



Perhaps your perception of me as "some kind of unschooling guru" is
affecting your attitude. The links I gave you were offered freely
for the benefit of your children, and maybe for a few hundred on the
list who might have followed them too, when they came by. They're
not all things I wrote at all. Most of what I sent was written by
other people.

It's easy to find lists where people will be "accepting," especially
accepting of limiting children and telling them what to do and when
and how. You'll have no problem if you decide what you want is
"acceptance."

If you want to read about unschooled teens and some of their college
experiences and jobs, here:

http://sandradodd.com/teen

http://sandradodd.com/teens



Someone sent me what's below the other day. It's not from a list I'm
on, we've had people leave UnschoolingDiscussion (another list I'm
on) and I've had people leave this one (as you've threatened to do),
just sure they could do better. If you need unschooling
encouragment, you can get help here or on other unschooling lists.
If you don't need help, you don't need this list.

The quote below (to the end of this e-mail) was in response to
complaints that some people's advice on another list was too direct
(perhaps too holier-than-thou and unaccepting; I didn't see the
complaints outside of this first little quoted bit)

============================================================


aggressive advice/responses are a good way to go for some... but
some may want a gentler touch.

I once felt like you about the posting style. I hooked up with
another dissatisfied newbie unschooler and we started our own kinder,
gentler unschooling support group. It didn't work out the way we
expected. At first, we mostly discussed how attacked we felt on the
more popular lists, this one included. Once we got past that, the
group just didn't really help me toward unschooling. Instead, we
coddled one another on the areas where we were having trouble. We
justified our excuses for not being able to truly unschool all areas
of life. Rather than learning how to confront those monsters that
kept us at bay from living freely, we stayed in the safe place. I
learned that safe place isn't where I want to be.

I took the seasoned unschoolers advice and learned to look at the
posts on a non-personal level. I no longer think the posts are
aggressive. The style here is assertive and confident. Sometimes I
do disagree with what someone says. And that's okay because I can
mull it over in my mind and try to figure out why I disagree so
much. I must say that when I really looked at the things that
bothered me the most, those were the things that were really keeping
me from living freely and joyfully.

I'm generally not the type of person that responds well to assertive
techniques. I have shed many a tear thinking people just didn't
understand me. But in truth, they did and do understand. It's taken
me years to grow and become more assertive and confident in myself.
This is exactly why I think unschooling is so great for my children.
If I hold onto the arbitrary rules and beliefs that didn't make me
happy, then I wasn't allowing my children to be happy either.

One thing that may help is to space out the posts a bit. If you ask
a question or participate in a discussion, don't read all the
responses at one time. Read 1 or 2 and think about them before
reading more or responding. Maybe even journal your thoughts so you
can go back and physically view what your mind is processing.

For me, when I really started actively looking into my thought
processes, I saw that I was feeling disrespected. I felt like all
the housework was on my shoulders. I felt like all the child care
responsibility was mine. I felt like I had to be someone different
to please my husband. But all of those were distorted perceptions.
My children didn't make messes to make me miserable. They were just
trying to be happy. They didn't want to stay up late because they
wanted to affect my sleep. I was too personally involved in
everything. Once I really learned to step back and not look at
everything in my life as something done personally to me, I was able
to readjust my thinking. And it's been like a floodgate lifted.

Okay, I'm rambling on too much now. I really do understand where you
are coming from. I came to unschooling in stages, over the last 4
years. I say we're unschoolers but I'm still not exactly where I
want to be. I'm still learning each day along with my children. It
has helped me to understand that the concept of unschooling isn't
really about my children at all. It's about changing what I'm
thinking and how I live.

------------------------------------










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ed Wendell

I too went through the whole "but what if he decides to go to college"??? Which he does talk about off and on. Zac is 14 now and I really think that if he chooses to go to college he will pick up the skills he needs at that point and I will stand beside him and help him if he needs or asks me to - in whatever way he needs. Whether that is hire a tutor, find a tutor if I cannot afford one, pay for extra remedial classes, do his laundry so he has more time to study, etc.; whatever it takes that I can do, I will.

Have you looked at some past posts about strewing for teens - this might help you figure out some things you could do to enrich their lives. My son spends a huge amount of time on various games. He currently is happily playing a few computer games. He also has a Wii system and a Playstation II that he enjoys. While on the computer he is connecting with other players all over the world. He says his favorite games are strategy games. Who knows where this will lead - I don't worry about it.

He still loves Lego's - I invested a lot of money in Lego's this past spring. He had not asked for new legos in a couple of years though he did play with what he had off and on. Then all of a sudden this spring he was creating all over the place and "needed" more. Who knows where that will lead - maybe he will work for Lego, Lego Land, or a design/construction something or other or perhaps he will go to college and become a structural engineer - or maybe he will have fond memories of Lego's as an adult and enjoy playing with his child ;)

What if "all" I'm doing is "building" a better future parent????? I cannot think of anything better actually!


I do know it is hard to let go of the fear - but this list has been the best for me/us. I joined a year ago (last summer) because the doubts were creeping in as my son turned 13 and he was now a teen and it was much easier when he was younger ....... This list helped me over that hump and I've relaxed again into the belief that he will learn it when he needs to/wants to.

For example our son being 14 makes me worry sometimes (more like a fleeting thought) when he asks things like "mom, is 2+6, 8?" To which I answered "yes" THEN the very next day we were at Costco - which is a large wholesale place that sells in multi-packs - Hubby and I were looking at something that was 4 packs of 30 - Zac walked up and said there are 120 in the box. He did multiplication in his head instantly - didn't even stop to think about it. I could have sworn he does not know multiplication ;)

Lisa W.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

wisdomalways5

--- In [email protected], Kathy and Jamie <jamnkats@...>
wrote:
>
>
> We used to live in the US and could visit libraries and take
occasional
> classes and interact with other families but we have been living in
> Mexico for over a year now and it just seems to me that the kids are
not
> getting exposed like the used to.

is there a reason you are doing less of this while in mexico?

We traveled (RV) for 3 years before
> we put down roots in Mexico and they got a lot of culture and history
> that way but this past year they just seem to be stagnating (IMO).

maybe they are taking a break from all that exposure- did you travel
around mexico or the US


> They're not complaining as long as they have unlimited computer and
> internet access.

so that sounds like a good idea- links to the whole world


>
> So I'm thinking that unschooling, the way we've always done it, is not
> enriching their lives. Because I honestly don't see (and the 12 and 14
> yo will agree, though they may be telling me what they think I want to
> hear to some degree) that playing Age of Empires and Runescape are
> really opening them to new experiences, ideas and concepts.

are you trying new things? probably they are telling you what you want
to hear- that all they do is play video games and they are worthless-
they probably already know you think this so they are giving you what
you want with as little arugment as possible

And I don't
> see how it prepares them for the outside world.

what part of the world are you preparing for them?


> The boys (12 and 14) do not know how to multiply. They do not know
> fractions or decimals or percents. Their math is limited to converting
> pesos to dollars and dollars to pesos, which is a skill that is
useful,
> and can make change (but I don't think they could make change in US
> coins and I know the girls have no idea what quarters, dimes and
nickels
> are but do know pesos and centavos). Making change is a HUGE skill and
> I'm glad for that but they are really limited in their mad math
skillz.

what other math skills do you want them to know? are they using "math"
concepts in their games that maybe you and them are unware of? my son is
14 and is exposed to a million math concepts as he plays world of
warcraft for hours on end- he does not really know that he is doing math
because it is just part of the game


> I introduced the concept of opening themselves to new concepts and
> challenging themselves and they both decided they wanted (though I
truly
> doubt they would have considered the idea themselves and thought it a
> lovely idea) to do the Teaching Textbooks curriculum and have been
doing
> it daily. They listen to the lesson without complaint and do as much
> work as they decide they need to do. They seem to be getting
> satisfaction from the exposure to new concepts and self esteem from
> mastering a new skill. And I see all that as positive.

is there a way to present new concepts without a textbook? can you take
field trips- can you watch tv and movies- can you go do things that you
think they would be interested in


>
> So, I'm thinking of further curriculum.

probably they will think it is FUN for a while till the novelty wears
off and then they will resist- can you just leave out the workbook for
them to do or not do

Neither girl is reading
> but that doesn't concern me as the boys learned to read without any
> "lessons" or manipulation on my part and I can see the same signs in
the
> girls. The 8yo just started doing inventive spelling, so no worries
> there,

if you can see that it works for reading why are you so concerned with
math?

> So my question is how much to push curriculum/learning/academics on
> them?

I would say NONE since the goal is to unschool-

They have no opportunities here (Mexico) for two reasons, they
> refuse to learn Spanish

perhaps you should move to an english area

(and as such are limited to the people they can
> communicate with) and opportunities just don't exist here for
> homeschooling resources.

perhaps it was a mistake to settle in where you settled if you feel
there are no resources-

> I feel like I've walked the walk but now that it isn't so easy and the
> kids are getting older I'm falling for the "unschooling won't provide
a
> good foundation" argument. I'm mostly talking about the boys here (12
> and 14) and not the girls (8 and 6).

maybe define what a good foundation is and what it is you think they
HAVE to know in order to survive- maybe your girls are more bookish than
the boys and you are wishing they were more into workbooks- maybe the
girls at 12 and 14 will not be into workbooks either

are the boys happy playing their games- so they want to be doing other
things- if they were in an english speaking place would they be more
willing

Julie

www.the-life-of-fun.blogspot.com
<http://www.the-life-of-fun.blogspot.com>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

--- In [email protected], Kathy and Jamie <jamnkats@...>
wrote:
>
> Do you intend to come across as a holier-than-thou and unaccepting?

Do you intend to do absolutely no reading on the purpose of this list
or what unschooling really is and then post about wanting advice that
is contrary to unschooling?

~~So my question is how much to push curriculum/learning/academics on
them?~~

Why would you even ask this if you knew what unschooling truly is
about? Why would you ask people who are passionate about natural
learning to give you advice about something they don't believe is
helpful to unschooling?

I mean really. It's like asking a vegetarian how to butcher and cook a
chicken.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Ren Allen

~~Yes, I understand that unschooling has nothing to do with academics~~

This shows a lack of understanding right here.
Unschooling has everything to do with....everything. It's about
trusting that humans will learn what they need, when they need it.
Which might look very academic for some.

What you were asking though, was not about how to support an
academic-leaning child, but a parent that has decided the child's
interests aren't good enough.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Pamela Sorooshian

I JUST had that thought the other day regarding my 17 yo daughter, in
particular. She said to me that she doubted she'd want to go to
college and I had a momentary pang of "oh, dear." Just a smidgen of
it. But immediately I thought about her and what she does and how
wonderful she is at what she does - she teaches classes at a kung fu
studio and lately has been organizing martial arts demonstrations and
classes for young adults with mental disabilities. She's a very
physical person - plays soccer, dances, does a couple of different
martial arts. AND she thinks very clearly - her brain is so --
uncluttered, I guess, with any kind of societal dictates - she's not
filled with "I shoulds." She's filled with, "I choose to....".

And then I watched her with some of the young kids at the kung fu
studio and I thought, "And she will be an awesome mother someday and
what could be MORE important than that?"

-pam

On Aug 1, 2008, at 8:33 PM, Ed Wendell wrote:

> What if "all" I'm doing is "building" a better future parent?????
> I cannot think of anything better actually!
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-Hubby and I were looking at something that was 4 packs of 30 - Zac
walked up and said there are 120 in the box. He did multiplication in
his head instantly - didn't even stop to think about it. I could have
sworn he does not know multiplication ;)-=-

http://sandradodd.com/timestables
There are some stories there (and Lisa, I'll try to add yours soon,
too).

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

JamnKats left the list, but sent me this parting note. Because
others spent energy commenting too, I thought the list should know.


----------------------------------------------------------------
I've left the list as it was very clear to me that I wasn't welcome -
as you pointed out, the very fact that my son went to Kindie
disqualified me. I have read the past months' worth of posts and
others with children in school aren't treated the same, so why I was
immediately labeled "TRAITOR" because my son decided he wanted to go
to school and I honored that request I really don't care to know.
I have no idea why you are so hostile to someone searching for
clarity but it is your playground and you can be anyway you want to be.

We live consentually. Our children are not coerced. We live in
Mexico because they decided they wanted to live here. I'm not
looking for curriculum discussion - I was looking for clarity.
Perhaps I worded my post poorly; I do not know because you very
clearly showed me the door. An assertive style is one thing.
Sarcasm and rudeness are quite another. Apparently there is a
laundry list that I did not fit into and I was judged unworthy.

But thanks to my putting words to paper I was able to communicate
more effectively with my boys and figure out exactly what they were
trying to achieve and what needs they were meeting with the goal of
college. And that is well worth you deciding I don't deserve a label
of "unschooler". I don't really need your label or anyone elses.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

No one used the word "TRAITOR." Quotes are serious. Either use the
words a person used or don't use quotation marks.

When someone has already bought curriculum and states the intent to
buy more, that IS a curriculum discussion. It does appear that the
author wanted to be "qualified" (says she was disqualified), and not
to be a traitor (though no one else used the word), and wanted to be
judged worthy and to "deserve" the label of 'unschooler.'" That's a
lot of talk of wanting approval.

It happens often (too often) that people come to this list or others
similar to try to get some kind of blessing or approval or 'attaboy'
about compromising unschooling, or giving up, or quitting. Just do
it or don't without asking for an okay. Those who "really don't need
our label or anyone else's" (or those who say so) seem the most
stunned and offended by questions and by people pointing out their
inconsistencies.

Is approval by unschoolers like magical leprechaun gold or
something? People will twist and turn and cheat to get it?

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

>
> I could have sworn he does not know multiplication ;)


Multiplication is a tool with no need to memorize facts in order to use it.
You can have thrown away the math table and still do all the multiplication
you want to! No memorization needed, although you can if you want to. Some
people can't memorize things well. I always figure it out because I can't
remember the multiplication table.

~Katherine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sylvia Toyama

I worry that we're aren't doing enough to provide them what they need to be happy and successful in whatever they decide they want to achieve, especially since they say they desire to attend college. If that ends up being what they want I would like to facilitate that to my best ability.

****
Can you do more? Live more exciting, captivating lives?  Help them find outside interests? And what's wrong with spending lots of time on the computer, especially if that's the only place they can find english-speaking non-family folks.

*****
I also worry that they are stagnating here as they would prefer to stay inside all day, avoid outside contact and play on the computer. Well, not all day, because their current schedule is to stay up til dawn on the computer and sleep all day.

*****
Is this because there's nothing interesting going on outside?  Do they know anyone locally?  Do they have local friends?  You mentioned that the kids 'refuse' to learn Spanish -- why?  Was living in Mexico (as ex-pat American, I'm guessing) their choice or yours? Are they happy in Mexico?  If they choose college, will it be in the States or in Mexico?  What kind of launch into a future life can they have in Mexico, especially when they aren't willing to get out and mingle, learn the language and soak up the culture?

Sylvia







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sylvia Toyama

I've seen her post on some other list, I think, when they were still roaming the country and making plans to settle in Mexico (her story and kids' ages sound familiar).  IIt had to be an unschoolers' list, since those are the only kind I belong to. 

Maybe the kids were "just telling her what she wanted to hear" when they agreed to live in a country where they're not willing to learn the language.  That alone sounds pretty passive-aggressive to me.

Sylvia






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jay Ford

Wow.  Unschooling while traveling in an RV and now living in Mexico?  And you don't see the unschooling opportunities??  My dream is to stick my kids in an RV in 2 years after some bills are paid off, travel the US, Canada, and Mexico in  our RV.  All I can see are hugely limitless possibilities for learning.
Living in Mexico?  How cool!  Do they not play with other kids?  How can you not learn the language of the country you live in?  Seems like they'd pick up Spanish by osmosis (well, not really osmosis, but by being immersed in it).  And being bilingual is a huge asset.
Maybe I'm not understanding your post, but it seems to me there are so many learning opportunities where you are and I'm not getting why, as an unschooler, you don't see them?
Jay




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

> I introduced the concept of opening themselves to new concepts and
> challenging themselves and they both decided they wanted (though I
truly
> doubt they would have considered the idea themselves and thought it a
> lovely idea) to do the Teaching Textbooks curriculum and have been
doing
> it daily. They listen to the lesson without complaint and do as much
> work as they decide they need to do. They seem to be getting
> satisfaction from the exposure to new concepts and self esteem from
> mastering a new skill. And I see all that as positive.


This is something that I don't think I will ever truly understand. The
idea that if a child seems like they are bored, the parent will decide
what they think the child needs to make the life more interesting
without asking the child what they want or need. People who are
homeschooling always seem to go straight to more books and paperwork to
fulfill a kid. I don't know of any kid that would choose that over all
the other infinite choices there are. I'm sure there may be a few that
gravitate toward that kind of thing, but very few I'm sure.

Just because a kid does something without complaint doesn't mean that it
is the optimal thing for that kid. My kids often run errands with me
without complaint, yet I'd be willing to bet that if they were to choose
between going to the park or any number of other things and go run
errands, I'm sure that they'd choose the first option.

> So my question is how much to push curriculum/learning/academics on
> them? They have no opportunities here (Mexico) for two reasons, they
> refuse to learn Spanish (and as such are limited to the people they
can
> communicate with) and opportunities just don't exist here for
> homeschooling resources.

It's no wonder to me that a kid would refuse to learn spanish while in
Mexico if the choice is to learn it from a curriculum! Even I would
balk at that a little. Keep dictionaries handy for easy translation.
Get out and do stuff and translate as you go, like thinking out loud.
Kids, just like adults will absorb languages if immersed.

The math leads me to believe that very slow
> exposure, supported by confidence built by mastery can only enrich
their
> lives but am I convincing myself because I feel "safer" for their
> futures if they can show mastery of society's accepted skills (3 R's)?
> I feel like I've walked the walk but now that it isn't so easy and the
> kids are getting older I'm falling for the "unschooling won't provide
a
> good foundation" argument. I'm mostly talking about the boys here (12
> and 14) and not the girls (8 and 6).
>
> Any ideas, input?


Why would any kid feel confident over the mastery of math? Math is
everywhere. Kids can feel confident in a number of other ways, by doing
things they love and succeeding in them. If the need for math hasn't
arisen, which is alone is highly suspect, then it will eventually, in
the way that each individual will need it to get what they want in life.

Although, I didn't keep the original text here, the poster has mentioned
that all of the kids are translating peso and dollars which is pretty
useful and requires mathematics. Even though the mom isn't confident
that this is enough math skill to get along in the world, I'm pretty
sure that if a kid can do that kind of translation, then they are doing
other kinds of mathematical skills in their heads as well, especially
since they play video games.

I really don't get how unschooling wouldn't provide a good foundation,
since unschooling IS a foundation, one that is built on helping kids
find the answers they need when they need them, helping kids grow into
confident people who know what they want and who they are and are happy
with that person.

ALL that other stuff is extraneous, it's a by product of living. The
living should be the focus.

diana jenner

> They have no opportunities here (Mexico) for two reasons, they
> > refuse to learn Spanish (and as such are limited to the people they
> can
> > communicate with) and opportunities just don't exist here for
> > homeschooling resources.
>
>







As someone who has long dreamed of living in the heart of Mexico with her
children, this is one of the saddest things I've ever read... (hence my
delay in responding)
We're *not* in Mexico, because the dream is mine and I've yet to fully
inspire those around me to share in that dream... I continue to share that
idea and one of these days ::::vbg:::: we're gonna go because we ALL want to
or I'll go as an empty-nester (they still like OLD redheads on those
telenovelas!). Meanwhile, I slowly work to surround myself with as much
Mexican culture as Corvallis, OR has to offer (and let me tell ya, it's WAY
more than Sioux Falls, SD had) and continue to work on my language skills.
If I never get there, that's okay with me, too, the dream of being a famous
soap star is better than the reality of dragging my family somewhere they
don't wanna be!
I invite Hayden to join my dream and we play with the "what if"s of Life in
Aguascalientes, Mexico. We imagine our housekeeper (because we could afford
one there!) and how she'd help him with the basics in the house (how to ask
for a PB&J or turkey sammich); of gaining confidence by practicing this new
language with trusted others; of his family's history as Mexicans in
Mexico-now-known-as-California & his genetic connection with this vast
neighbor to the south; imagining us playing at the playground and gleaning
the rhythm and sound of the language from the children who are just gaining
command of their native tongue...
Not once does it come to mind that we would just *sit* and not be exposed to
the whirly-swirly life around us!

We just moved 1/2 way across the country last October -- the differences
between SD and OR are so vast, we may as well have moved to a different
planet with the same language!! As the homebodies we are, we *still* get out
and venture 'round our new town. We love our proximity to the beach and
seeing mountains everyday is still a fresh surprise! We don't go anywhere
without some kind of conversation with the locals... (I've even gotten brave
enough to begin speaking Spanish with the family that owns our neighborhood
taco joint) I can't imagine kids missing that....

Mayhap it's a Tour Guide issue? If mom's reluctant to have a chat at the
panderia, who's showing the kids it's good to do that and HOW to do that?
One thing I've really reinforced in talking to Hayden about Life in Mexico
is my responsibility to communicate FOR him until he's ready to do so
himself. I've empowered him with the thought that Spanish is an easy
language (in comparison to English and it's Rules+Exceptions) and he'd be
able to pick it up in a matter of weeks, conversationally at least!

I don't know where they are in the great country of Mexico, but I'd bet
there are lots of somethings cool, somewhere nearby where they'd have FUN
and bring home some supercool Mexican memories!!
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

I was in Mexico (landed in Mexico City and stayed in Morelia) for a month in
the early 90s. Had a Spanish class there in college. We arrived on Three
Kings Day with carnival in full swing. There were kids and cotton candy
everywhere, mariachi bands, everything. Despite altitude sickness the
entire time, really bad hearing, and not feeling confident about my Spanish
one bit, I had a blast. Only place I ever had tequila. I think I talk way
more than I drink any day, and I really don't need anything to break ice.

We went place to place, and almost to Guadalahara but ran out of time. The
culture is very different from my own, and so interesting. Unlike the
States, children go wherever anybody else goes and there is little sense of
a need to separate family members. Children were as likely to be in the
workplace with their parents as not. We went to a volcano site by burro
(really skinny ones), and spun our "wheels" (on foot) going to the church at
the top. Amazing. We went to the Pyramids** of Teotihuacan, and climbed to
the top. There were people selling things along the way anywhere we went
but as far as I know we didn't pay fees to get in and there were no gates to
speak of when we went sightseeing.

I'd love to go back.

~Katherine




On 8/2/08, diana jenner <hahamommy@...> wrote:
>
> > They have no opportunities here (Mexico) for two reasons, they
> > > refuse to learn Spanish (and as such are limited to the people they
> > can
> > > communicate with) and opportunities just don't exist here for
> > > homeschooling resources.
> >
> >
>
> As someone who has long dreamed of living in the heart of Mexico with her
> children, this is one of the saddest things I've ever read... (hence my
> delay in responding)
> We're *not* in Mexico, because the dream is mine and I've yet to fully
> inspire those around me to share in that dream... I continue to share that
> idea and one of these days ::::vbg:::: we're gonna go because we ALL want
> to
> or I'll go as an empty-nester (they still like OLD redheads on those
> telenovelas!). Meanwhile, I slowly work to surround myself with as much
> Mexican culture as Corvallis, OR has to offer (and let me tell ya, it's WAY
> more than Sioux Falls, SD had) and continue to work on my language skills.
> If I never get there, that's okay with me, too, the dream of being a famous
> soap star is better than the reality of dragging my family somewhere they
> don't wanna be!
> I invite Hayden to join my dream and we play with the "what if"s of Life in
> Aguascalientes, Mexico. We imagine our housekeeper (because we could afford
> one there!) and how she'd help him with the basics in the house (how to ask
> for a PB&J or turkey sammich); of gaining confidence by practicing this new
> language with trusted others; of his family's history as Mexicans in
> Mexico-now-known-as-California & his genetic connection with this vast
> neighbor to the south; imagining us playing at the playground and gleaning
> the rhythm and sound of the language from the children who are just gaining
> command of their native tongue...
> Not once does it come to mind that we would just *sit* and not be exposed
> to
> the whirly-swirly life around us!
>
> We just moved 1/2 way across the country last October -- the differences
> between SD and OR are so vast, we may as well have moved to a different
> planet with the same language!! As the homebodies we are, we *still* get
> out
> and venture 'round our new town. We love our proximity to the beach and
> seeing mountains everyday is still a fresh surprise! We don't go anywhere
> without some kind of conversation with the locals... (I've even gotten
> brave
> enough to begin speaking Spanish with the family that owns our neighborhood
> taco joint) I can't imagine kids missing that....
>
> Mayhap it's a Tour Guide issue? If mom's reluctant to have a chat at the
> panderia, who's showing the kids it's good to do that and HOW to do that?
> One thing I've really reinforced in talking to Hayden about Life in Mexico
> is my responsibility to communicate FOR him until he's ready to do so
> himself. I've empowered him with the thought that Spanish is an easy
> language (in comparison to English and it's Rules+Exceptions) and he'd be
> able to pick it up in a matter of weeks, conversationally at least!
>
> I don't know where they are in the great country of Mexico, but I'd bet
> there are lots of somethings cool, somewhere nearby where they'd have FUN
> and bring home some supercool Mexican memories!!
> --
> ~diana :)
> xoxoxoxo
> hannahbearski.blogspot.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kstjonn

--- In [email protected], "diana jenner" <hahamommy@...>
wrote:
>
> > They have no opportunities here (Mexico) for two reasons, they
> > > refuse to learn Spanish (and as such are limited to the people
they
> > can
> > > communicate with) and opportunities just don't exist here for
> > > homeschooling resources.
> >


I just want to touch upon these sentences. I lived, with my husband
and daughter, for 8 years in a country where there were no
homeschooling resources and my child didn't want to learn the
language. We still managed to have fun with life and make friends and
enjoy the country.

Yes, we did end up moving back to the States and my daughter is happy
to have native English speakers around her but still, it's
manageable. And possible.

Are there no expats in your area who speak English? No restaurants
with workers who speak English? No English-language newspaper or
local blog or website? No programs for children who speak a language
other than Spanish?

Do the little ones even care if the children they play with speak
English? You can communicate a lot with sign language and just
throwing a ball to someone or sharing digging toys at the park. Also,
are *you* giving off positive vibes about
learning a new language? I know when I finally gave up and stopped
learning Czech (we were in Czech Republic), I noticed that no matter
how much I tried to keep it to myself, my daughter could still tell
that I had stopped trying. Are *you* happy where you live?

K

Meghan Anderson-Coates

**************
�
Is approval by unschoolers like magical leprechaun gold or
something? People will twist and turn and cheat to get it?

Sandra

**************
�
You know, I notice this a lot...
When other homeschoolers find out we unschool, they either say something along the lines of, 'I could never do that, I don't have the confidence (or creativity, or whatever...)' OR

Meghan
�

Why not go out on a limb? Isn�t that where the fruit is?
~ Frank Scully




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meghan Anderson-Coates

**************
�
Is approval by unschoolers like magical leprechaun gold or
something? People will twist and turn and cheat to get it?

Sandra

****************
�
Oops! Hit the wrong button. I will try this again�<g>.
�
You know, I notice this a lot...
When other homeschoolers find out we unschool, they either say something along the lines of, 'I could never do that, I don't have the confidence (or creativity, or whatever...)' OR they say something along the lines of, 'I unschool history (or science, or whatever...)' OR they say, 'we unschool too' and then I find out they don't push any academics, but they totally control food, TV, video games, etc.
For some reason, we seem to be held up to some kind of super homeschooler status. At least that seems to be my experience much of the time.


Meghan
�

Why not go out on a limb? Isn�t that where the fruit is?
~ Frank Scully




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rebecca

My favorite was, "We unschool too!...by default." WTF?! Not on
purpose, just because it's summer? Because you are lazy? In real
life, I have met more people who say they unschool than people who
truly unschool. I can't wait to go to Live & Learn and meet more
"real" people!

Rebecca

--- In [email protected], Meghan Anderson-Coates
<meghanandco@...> wrote:
>
> **************
>
> Is approval by unschoolers like magical leprechaun gold or
> something? People will twist and turn and cheat to get it?
>
> Sandra
>
> **************
>
> You know, I notice this a lot...
> When other homeschoolers find out we unschool, they either say
something along the lines of, 'I could never do that, I don't have the
confidence (or creativity, or whatever...)' OR
>
> Meghan
>
>
> Why not go out on a limb? Isn¢t that where the fruit is?
> ~ Frank Scully
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-In real
life, I have met more people who say they unschool than people who
truly unschool. I can't wait to go to Live & Learn and meet more
"real" people!-=-



At conferences, too, you'll meet more people who say than unschool
than who truly do.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>

-=-In real
life, I have met more people who say they unschool than people who
truly unschool. I can't wait to go to Live & Learn and meet more
"real" people!-=-


At conferences, too, you'll meet more people who say than unschool
than who truly do.

-=-=-=-=-=-==--=-=-

Very true, but many of *those* go home a little closer to unschooling.

A lot of it is because they've had no concrete models (or maybe flesh &
bone models <g>) to emulate or examine. These online communities are
great, but actually *seeing* other families interacting is priceless.
It can be a huge revelation.

Even if you're not quite on board, conferences can shift your thinking
just enough to make you a bit more comfortable at home.

Each baby step we take brings us closer and closer to unschooling. A
conference can be a giant leap in the right direction! <g>



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/4/2008 3:25:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
Sandra@... writes:

At conferences, too, you'll meet more people who say than unschool
than who truly do.


____
I remember the first conference we went to when I told someone I could
probably unschool my son but not my daughter...<g>

Our family wandered in to a weekend Live and Learn conference five years ago
not really knowing much at all about unschooling and when we headed home on
Sunday we knew that we wanted what we saw. Those first steps definitely took
place in the conversations with unschooling attendees and presenters and
especially in watching the children as well as family interactions during that
short time.

It was certainly life changing for our entire family.


Gail


_http://gail-hummingbirdhaven.blogspot.com_
(http://gail-hummingbirdhaven.blogspot.com)





**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
Read reviews on AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Yes you will find  people  like that in conferences.
There will also be people new to unschooling who still don't quite get it and very much and
just let the kids do whatever without supervision or guidance and most of those kids are not used to so much freedom coming from school.
I also met some parents that were there and had young kids and were still deciding if they wanted to unschool and wanted to check out the teenagers and were very critical of everything.
There were some families that had no TV because they think TV is "bad" for kids and regulated their kid's food not allowing them any "junk" or even a little sugar.
But there are many wonderful families that get it. Many wonderful kids and fabulous teenagers
In my family I was the one who had a melt down one day and needed to get out of the game room and my son wanted me to stay ( my mom was going to stay with him while I stepped out for a break from all the stimulation). I had a couple of mom come to try to rescue us. Like Kelly Lovejoy say those are "learningtakes".
We had the time of our lives there. My son LOVED it. He had just turned 5 at the time.
So what I am saying is that there are many different families at the conference.
 But it is awesome!
 
 

 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/

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Jenny C

> My favorite was, "We unschool too!...by default." WTF?! Not on
> purpose, just because it's summer? Because you are lazy? In real
> life, I have met more people who say they unschool than people who
> truly unschool. I can't wait to go to Live & Learn and meet more
> "real" people!


I've encountered that too. Our local unschooling list is full of people
who control food and tv and unschool with school rooms in their houses.
Not everyone, but for some reason they are the vocal ones. The woman
who moderates the list is cool though, I finally did meet her in person
at the Life is Good Conference, she's on this list too.

We've only met a small handful of people who really unschool, one of
those families has their kids in a democratic/free school right now.

Rebecca

> Yes you will find people like that in conferences.
> There will also be people new to unschooling who still don't quite
get it and very much and
> just let the kids do whatever without supervision or guidance and
most of those kids are not used to so much freedom coming from school.
> I also met some parents that were there and had young kids and were
still deciding if they wanted to unschool and wanted to check out the
teenagers and were very critical of everything.
> There were some families that had no TV because they think TV is
"bad" for kids and regulated their kid's food not allowing them any
"junk" or even a little sugar.
> But there are many wonderful families that get it. Many wonderful
kids and fabulous teenagers

Hmmm...I guess that's all to be expected. I imagine that the families
who've taken the time and expense to attend are at least on a path
towards unschooling. That's different than people unschooling while
waiting for curriculum to arrive or before the kids' 8:00 p.m.
bedtime. We're still newbies ourselves as my daughter is 3 and
though she has been always unschooled, my husband and I are still
deschooling ourselves. That's a process I don't see us mastering any
time soon. Do you ever?

> In my family I was the one who had a melt down one day and needed to
get out of the game room and my son wanted me to stay ( my mom was
going to stay with him while I stepped out for a break from all the
stimulation). I had a couple of mom come to try to rescue us. Like
Kelly Lovejoy say those are "learningtakes".

I'm expecting us to have some rough patches after a long road trip, a
new environment, and lots of people and other stimulation. I love
learningtakes! They're not always fun in the moment, but they are
great for learning.

Rebecca