people complaining about their own kids
Pamela Sorooshian
This seems to be coming up for me over and over, these days.
I think it is because my kids are pretty much grown up and busy with
their own stuff and I'm spending more time with other adults, without
the kids around.
So - what's happening is that the other adults are complaining a lot
about their own kids. They go on and on and ON about how self-centered
and inconsiderate their kids are. They tell stories about how rude
their kids are. Or, they tell about all the trouble their kids are
getting into, all the problems they are having with them.
There is a very hostile tone to all this complaining. They are angry
at their kids for not being better, nicer, less trouble, etc.
I'm so very uncomfortable with this. I don't seem to know how to
respond.
I could hardly be happier with my kids. I adore them and I'm very
proud of them. Are they making all the "perfect" choices I'd wish
they'd make? I guess not, if I think about it. But I most definitely
am not going to sit there and complain about their choices. Not at all.
And, what I could mention can't compare to the things other people are
saying about how rotten their kids are - how shallow, how rude, how
inconsiderate, how meanspirited, how dishonest, how untrustworthy. And
those are the ones with the pretty good kids - there are some others
whose kids have really gone bad - stealing, hard drugs and alcoholism,
violence, etc.
So weird to find it slightly embarrassing to be happy with my kids.
Anyway - my question is what you do when you get into a situation in
which parents are sitting around badmouthing their own kids?
-pam
I think it is because my kids are pretty much grown up and busy with
their own stuff and I'm spending more time with other adults, without
the kids around.
So - what's happening is that the other adults are complaining a lot
about their own kids. They go on and on and ON about how self-centered
and inconsiderate their kids are. They tell stories about how rude
their kids are. Or, they tell about all the trouble their kids are
getting into, all the problems they are having with them.
There is a very hostile tone to all this complaining. They are angry
at their kids for not being better, nicer, less trouble, etc.
I'm so very uncomfortable with this. I don't seem to know how to
respond.
I could hardly be happier with my kids. I adore them and I'm very
proud of them. Are they making all the "perfect" choices I'd wish
they'd make? I guess not, if I think about it. But I most definitely
am not going to sit there and complain about their choices. Not at all.
And, what I could mention can't compare to the things other people are
saying about how rotten their kids are - how shallow, how rude, how
inconsiderate, how meanspirited, how dishonest, how untrustworthy. And
those are the ones with the pretty good kids - there are some others
whose kids have really gone bad - stealing, hard drugs and alcoholism,
violence, etc.
So weird to find it slightly embarrassing to be happy with my kids.
Anyway - my question is what you do when you get into a situation in
which parents are sitting around badmouthing their own kids?
-pam
k
Mine is only 5 and I hear tons of complaining from parents of their kids who
are around about that same age. Sometimes I just look at the parents and
listen as openmindedly as I can (not easy for me) because many people really
aren't remembering much about being that age. Many people also choose avoid
much memory of being a teen or young adult themselves as well.
It's easier to focus on the point that they as parents are uncomfortable
right then and there. And why wouldn't they be? Many of them have made
some choices that are not so good. I wouldn't point it out because they
can't change back then. We can only act in the present. And people who
didn't realize all that about their choices then usually do not want to
realize it now either.
Their view is that as parents they are victims of circumstances.
There's little consideration about how children or people just *are* or
about how people develop from one age to another. They don't really
understand growth as a process, except perhaps physically and maybe a little
bit mentally and psychologically. Their understanding hinges on fragments
of the whole process.
In addition, I also think many people don't believe in change. I've heard
this a lot: "People don't change." I feel so differently. I *have*
changed. What they see part of is that change is not automatic. And that
*is* true, even if that's not exactly the words they use to express the
phenomenon.
Changing yourself and your life requires a whole different way of thinking.
~Katherine
are around about that same age. Sometimes I just look at the parents and
listen as openmindedly as I can (not easy for me) because many people really
aren't remembering much about being that age. Many people also choose avoid
much memory of being a teen or young adult themselves as well.
It's easier to focus on the point that they as parents are uncomfortable
right then and there. And why wouldn't they be? Many of them have made
some choices that are not so good. I wouldn't point it out because they
can't change back then. We can only act in the present. And people who
didn't realize all that about their choices then usually do not want to
realize it now either.
Their view is that as parents they are victims of circumstances.
There's little consideration about how children or people just *are* or
about how people develop from one age to another. They don't really
understand growth as a process, except perhaps physically and maybe a little
bit mentally and psychologically. Their understanding hinges on fragments
of the whole process.
In addition, I also think many people don't believe in change. I've heard
this a lot: "People don't change." I feel so differently. I *have*
changed. What they see part of is that change is not automatic. And that
*is* true, even if that's not exactly the words they use to express the
phenomenon.
Changing yourself and your life requires a whole different way of thinking.
~Katherine
On 7/10/08, Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
> This seems to be coming up for me over and over, these days.
>
> I think it is because my kids are pretty much grown up and busy with
> their own stuff and I'm spending more time with other adults, without
> the kids around.
>
> So - what's happening is that the other adults are complaining a lot
> about their own kids. They go on and on and ON about how self-centered
> and inconsiderate their kids are. They tell stories about how rude
> their kids are. Or, they tell about all the trouble their kids are
> getting into, all the problems they are having with them.
>
> There is a very hostile tone to all this complaining. They are angry
> at their kids for not being better, nicer, less trouble, etc.
>
> I'm so very uncomfortable with this. I don't seem to know how to
> respond.
>
> I could hardly be happier with my kids. I adore them and I'm very
> proud of them. Are they making all the "perfect" choices I'd wish
> they'd make? I guess not, if I think about it. But I most definitely
> am not going to sit there and complain about their choices. Not at all.
>
> And, what I could mention can't compare to the things other people are
> saying about how rotten their kids are - how shallow, how rude, how
> inconsiderate, how meanspirited, how dishonest, how untrustworthy. And
> those are the ones with the pretty good kids - there are some others
> whose kids have really gone bad - stealing, hard drugs and alcoholism,
> violence, etc.
>
> So weird to find it slightly embarrassing to be happy with my kids.
>
> Anyway - my question is what you do when you get into a situation in
> which parents are sitting around badmouthing their own kids?
>
> -pam
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
**Anyway - my question is what you do when you get into a situation in which
parents are sitting around badmouthing their own kids?**
It depends on the circumstances. Mostly I try to just get out of those
situations. If I can't I try hard to stay quiet, because usually my saying anything
isn't really going to help. I'm just not eloquent enough. Sometimes I might
mention the things I've seen that are contrary to the negative evaluation, but
generally that just makes things worse. Very occasionally with someone I know
really well I might point out that they themselves show a LOT of the trait
they're castigating their child for (it's often a glaring truth). Once or twice
I've mentioned that I've found that the more I focus on how bad things are the
worse they get. Mostly I suppose I try to change the subject or go play with
the kids.
I'm not always happy with my kids. They aren't always happy with me. But I
think hard not to put negative labels on them *especially in my own head*.
Declaring a person selfish, whiny, shallow, rude, inconsiderate, meanspirited,
dishonest, untrustworthy, etc. etc. locks them into that box, if only in my own
mind, so that ordinary human behaviours take on extraordinary negative meanings,
and perhaps temporary conditions gain weight and gravity and substance.
I try really really hard not to go around complaining about my kids. Okay,
that sounds like I'm walking around a lot *feeling* like complaining, which
isn't true at all. I mean that when I *am* for one reason or another having
conflicts with or worries about one of my kids, that I try to be especially aware of
how I talk/write about them to other people. It seems to me that it is
harmful to our relationship for me to engage in that sort of negative talk where
people seem to be looking mostly for hand patting "there there" and agreement
that parenting is hard and kids can be so awful (the same sort of complaining a
lot of women seem to get into about husbands, for that matter).
It's hard. Sometimes it seems like it's such a fine line between describing a
situation because you're asking for help in figuring it out, asking for help
to remember to breathe, laughing at your own foibles, and that negative
destructive complaining. Of course a lot of the time it's a grand canyon of a chasm.
Deborah in IL
**************
Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and
the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!
(http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
parents are sitting around badmouthing their own kids?**
It depends on the circumstances. Mostly I try to just get out of those
situations. If I can't I try hard to stay quiet, because usually my saying anything
isn't really going to help. I'm just not eloquent enough. Sometimes I might
mention the things I've seen that are contrary to the negative evaluation, but
generally that just makes things worse. Very occasionally with someone I know
really well I might point out that they themselves show a LOT of the trait
they're castigating their child for (it's often a glaring truth). Once or twice
I've mentioned that I've found that the more I focus on how bad things are the
worse they get. Mostly I suppose I try to change the subject or go play with
the kids.
I'm not always happy with my kids. They aren't always happy with me. But I
think hard not to put negative labels on them *especially in my own head*.
Declaring a person selfish, whiny, shallow, rude, inconsiderate, meanspirited,
dishonest, untrustworthy, etc. etc. locks them into that box, if only in my own
mind, so that ordinary human behaviours take on extraordinary negative meanings,
and perhaps temporary conditions gain weight and gravity and substance.
I try really really hard not to go around complaining about my kids. Okay,
that sounds like I'm walking around a lot *feeling* like complaining, which
isn't true at all. I mean that when I *am* for one reason or another having
conflicts with or worries about one of my kids, that I try to be especially aware of
how I talk/write about them to other people. It seems to me that it is
harmful to our relationship for me to engage in that sort of negative talk where
people seem to be looking mostly for hand patting "there there" and agreement
that parenting is hard and kids can be so awful (the same sort of complaining a
lot of women seem to get into about husbands, for that matter).
It's hard. Sometimes it seems like it's such a fine line between describing a
situation because you're asking for help in figuring it out, asking for help
to remember to breathe, laughing at your own foibles, and that negative
destructive complaining. Of course a lot of the time it's a grand canyon of a chasm.
Deborah in IL
**************
Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and
the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!
(http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
> Anyway - my question is what you do when you get into a situation inThat's a really hard one for me too! I absolutely adore my kids and
> which parents are sitting around badmouthing their own kids?
think they are completely awesome! I trust them with all my heart!
Sometimes they do mean or hurtful things, but I try to let it go and
focus on the good things they do, so those yuck things they do on
occasion seem so insignificant.
When I get in these conversations, I try to change the subject because
it hurts me to hear it, I hurt for those kids. Sometimes I share what I
heard with my older daughter and we talk about it together, and that
helps because she has a unique insight to people.
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jul 10, 2008, at 12:27 PM, DACunefare@... wrote:
mouth, but maybe that's inevitable. I don't like feeling like I'm
agreeing by my silence.
don't want to hurt them more.
about their selfish children. I see that a lot.
large - just ten or so people and maybe their spouses - no children. I
already heard that a couple of them are having big problems with their
kids. The fact that I "heard" this means they're talking about it, so
I'm anticipating this topic will come up. These are mostly people I
have had little to no contact with for 20-plus years. The ones I still
see and talk to are the ones with great kids - who like their kids and
who hang out as a family. Not a coincidence that those are the ones I
stayed friends with, I'm sure.
uncomfortable. I don't want to claim that I'm always totally thrilled
with my kids in every possible way - or them with me. But there is no
WAY I'm going to sit around and complain. And, overall, our lives are
SO good. And, I don't want to label my kids with those negative terms
for all the reasons Deb gave above.
brainstorm together.
It is the hostility toward their kids that throws me. Sometimes it
sounds downright hateful.
-pam
> **Anyway - my question is what you do when you get into a situationThis is usually what I do, too. It leaves me with a bad taste in my
> in which
> parents are sitting around badmouthing their own kids?**
>
> It depends on the circumstances. Mostly I try to just get out of those
> situations. If I can't I try hard to stay quiet, because usually my
> saying anything
> isn't really going to help.
mouth, but maybe that's inevitable. I don't like feeling like I'm
agreeing by my silence.
> I'm just not eloquent enough. Sometimes I mightYes. And, I do sympathize with the parents. I KNOW they're hurting. I
> mention the things I've seen that are contrary to the negative
> evaluation, but
> generally that just makes things worse.
don't want to hurt them more.
> Very occasionally with someone I knowYes - that's so true. The most self-absorbed parents complain the most
> really well I might point out that they themselves show a LOT of the
> trait
> they're castigating their child for (it's often a glaring truth).
about their selfish children. I see that a lot.
> Once or twiceI am going to a grad-school reunion on Saturday night. It won't be
> I've mentioned that I've found that the more I focus on how bad
> things are the
> worse they get. Mostly I suppose I try to change the subject or go
> play with
> the kids.
large - just ten or so people and maybe their spouses - no children. I
already heard that a couple of them are having big problems with their
kids. The fact that I "heard" this means they're talking about it, so
I'm anticipating this topic will come up. These are mostly people I
have had little to no contact with for 20-plus years. The ones I still
see and talk to are the ones with great kids - who like their kids and
who hang out as a family. Not a coincidence that those are the ones I
stayed friends with, I'm sure.
>I couldn't agree more. I think this is the crux of what makes me so
>
> I'm not always happy with my kids. They aren't always happy with me.
> But I
> think hard not to put negative labels on them *especially in my own
> head*.
> Declaring a person selfish, whiny, shallow, rude, inconsiderate,
> meanspirited,
> dishonest, untrustworthy, etc. etc. locks them into that box, if
> only in my own
> mind, so that ordinary human behaviours take on extraordinary
> negative meanings,
> and perhaps temporary conditions gain weight and gravity and
> substance.
uncomfortable. I don't want to claim that I'm always totally thrilled
with my kids in every possible way - or them with me. But there is no
WAY I'm going to sit around and complain. And, overall, our lives are
SO good. And, I don't want to label my kids with those negative terms
for all the reasons Deb gave above.
>I'm great with people who want advice or help or ideas or just to
>
> I try really really hard not to go around complaining about my kids.
> Okay,
> that sounds like I'm walking around a lot *feeling* like
> complaining, which
> isn't true at all. I mean that when I *am* for one reason or another
> having
> conflicts with or worries about one of my kids, that I try to be
> especially aware of
> how I talk/write about them to other people. It seems to me that it is
> harmful to our relationship for me to engage in that sort of
> negative talk where
> people seem to be looking mostly for hand patting "there there" and
> agreement
> that parenting is hard and kids can be so awful (the same sort of
> complaining a
> lot of women seem to get into about husbands, for that matter).
>
> It's hard. Sometimes it seems like it's such a fine line between
> describing a
> situation because you're asking for help in figuring it out, asking
> for help
> to remember to breathe, laughing at your own foibles, and that
> negative
> destructive complaining. Of course a lot of the time it's a grand
> canyon of a chasm.
brainstorm together.
It is the hostility toward their kids that throws me. Sometimes it
sounds downright hateful.
-pam
[email protected]
**I'm great with people who want advice or help or ideas or just to
brainstorm together.
It is the hostility toward their kids that throws me. Sometimes it
sounds downright hateful.**
There are people I expect it from, they've done it all the time I've known
them so that I'm no longer surprised and I just try to let it go on past. I hate
when it picks up steam and others pick up the ball and toss it around with
them. This has happened in a couple places recently and it's very distressing.
I don't know. Staying silent feels very bad, speaking up feels hard and tense
and I want to do it only if I think it might actually help someone.
And really, I know people who I'm pretty sure deep down really do hate their
kids. It's the others that bother me when it gets into that hostile terrain.
Deb who apparently has little advice or insight today
**************
Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music
scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!
(http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
brainstorm together.
It is the hostility toward their kids that throws me. Sometimes it
sounds downright hateful.**
There are people I expect it from, they've done it all the time I've known
them so that I'm no longer surprised and I just try to let it go on past. I hate
when it picks up steam and others pick up the ball and toss it around with
them. This has happened in a couple places recently and it's very distressing.
I don't know. Staying silent feels very bad, speaking up feels hard and tense
and I want to do it only if I think it might actually help someone.
And really, I know people who I'm pretty sure deep down really do hate their
kids. It's the others that bother me when it gets into that hostile terrain.
Deb who apparently has little advice or insight today
**************
Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music
scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!
(http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
I've gotten in real trouble responding to someone who was asking what I would do if my child did something her child had done. She didn't want me to tell her, not really. What she wanted me to say was that kids are just bad and trouble and to give some instance or the other that was similar. I didn't do that. Instead I offered suggestions and ideas and talked about trying to think about the good things and not the bad. In the end it jeopardized Linnaea's friendship with her daughter. I don't say anything these days. I talk about many things other than her children. If she talks about them, well, it hasn't happened yet, but I try and stay as uninvolved in those kinds of conversations as I possibly can.
I don't have anything to offer you. I just feel sad when I listen to people complain about their children or their partners. Neither seems to be a step in a direction that leads to anything but more misery and hatefulness.
Actually, Kelly just posted a link (http://www.changestherapy.com/home.nxg) to the definition of "fogging" which might be a useful technique if you wanted to not be silent all the time.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message ----
From: Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, 10 July, 2008 8:39:33 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: people complaining about their own kids
I don't have anything to offer you. I just feel sad when I listen to people complain about their children or their partners. Neither seems to be a step in a direction that leads to anything but more misery and hatefulness.
Actually, Kelly just posted a link (http://www.changestherapy.com/home.nxg) to the definition of "fogging" which might be a useful technique if you wanted to not be silent all the time.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message ----
From: Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, 10 July, 2008 8:39:33 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: people complaining about their own kids
On Jul 10, 2008, at 12:27 PM, DACunefare@... wrote:
> **Anyway - my question is what you do when you get into a situation
> in which
> parents are sitting around badmouthing their own kids?**
>
> It depends on the circumstances. Mostly I try to just get out of those
> situations. If I can't I try hard to stay quiet, because usually my
> saying anything
> isn't really going to help.
This is usually what I do, too. It leaves me with a bad taste in my
mouth, but maybe that's inevitable. I don't like feeling like I'm
agreeing by my silence.
> I'm just not eloquent enough. Sometimes I might
> mention the things I've seen that are contrary to the negative
> evaluation, but
> generally that just makes things worse.
Yes. And, I do sympathize with the parents. I KNOW they're hurting. I
don't want to hurt them more.
> Very occasionally with someone I know
> really well I might point out that they themselves show a LOT of the
> trait
> they're castigating their child for (it's often a glaring truth).
Yes - that's so true. The most self-absorbed parents complain the most
about their selfish children. I see that a lot.
> Once or twice
> I've mentioned that I've found that the more I focus on how bad
> things are the
> worse they get. Mostly I suppose I try to change the subject or go
> play with
> the kids.
I am going to a grad-school reunion on Saturday night. It won't be
large - just ten or so people and maybe their spouses - no children. I
already heard that a couple of them are having big problems with their
kids. The fact that I "heard" this means they're talking about it, so
I'm anticipating this topic will come up. These are mostly people I
have had little to no contact with for 20-plus years. The ones I still
see and talk to are the ones with great kids - who like their kids and
who hang out as a family. Not a coincidence that those are the ones I
stayed friends with, I'm sure.
>
>
> I'm not always happy with my kids. They aren't always happy with me.
> But I
> think hard not to put negative labels on them *especially in my own
> head*.
> Declaring a person selfish, whiny, shallow, rude, inconsiderate,
> meanspirited,
> dishonest, untrustworthy, etc. etc. locks them into that box, if
> only in my own
> mind, so that ordinary human behaviours take on extraordinary
> negative meanings,
> and perhaps temporary conditions gain weight and gravity and
> substance.
I couldn't agree more. I think this is the crux of what makes me so
uncomfortable. I don't want to claim that I'm always totally thrilled
with my kids in every possible way - or them with me. But there is no
WAY I'm going to sit around and complain. And, overall, our lives are
SO good. And, I don't want to label my kids with those negative terms
for all the reasons Deb gave above.
>
>
> I try really really hard not to go around complaining about my kids.
> Okay,
> that sounds like I'm walking around a lot *feeling* like
> complaining, which
> isn't true at all. I mean that when I *am* for one reason or another
> having
> conflicts with or worries about one of my kids, that I try to be
> especially aware of
> how I talk/write about them to other people. It seems to me that it is
> harmful to our relationship for me to engage in that sort of
> negative talk where
> people seem to be looking mostly for hand patting "there there" and
> agreement
> that parenting is hard and kids can be so awful (the same sort of
> complaining a
> lot of women seem to get into about husbands, for that matter).
>
> It's hard. Sometimes it seems like it's such a fine line between
> describing a
> situation because you're asking for help in figuring it out, asking
> for help
> to remember to breathe, laughing at your own foibles, and that
> negative
> destructive complaining. Of course a lot of the time it's a grand
> canyon of a chasm.
I'm great with people who want advice or help or ideas or just to
brainstorm together.
It is the hostility toward their kids that throws me. Sometimes it
sounds downright hateful.
-pam
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joylyn
---- Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
Anyway, I really enjoy being with my kids too, but it's hard to be a single parent--I don't have anyone to talk to about this sort of thing. It's all on me...
Joylyn
> Anyway - my question is what you do when you get into a situation inI really can't answer this but it reminded me of a work function a few years ago when someone was complaining out her 12 year old. She went on and on and finally I said something like "when I feel like Alex and I are having some problems communicating, I realize we haven't spent any time cuddling lately, so I invite her to cuddle and watch a movie together or share a book or simply talk. This helps us to reconnect and we tend to communicate better and life together more peacefully." I thought it was a really good suggestion, but she just looked at me open mouthed. Her child, she said, wouldn't even allow a quick hug, or a pat on the back. She didn't want her mother to touch her at all. She could not believe that my 12 year old loved to cuddle still. It was my turn to look at her open mouthed--how could she not cuddle her child? I really didn't know what to say. I suggested she start slowly, and reminded her that even adults need physical comfort and cuddling, and especially teens did.
> which parents are sitting around badmouthing their own kids?
Anyway, I really enjoy being with my kids too, but it's hard to be a single parent--I don't have anyone to talk to about this sort of thing. It's all on me...
Joylyn
Joylyn
Different but related, but my students at my school do not understand how I can parent without hitting my children. It's a huge issue every year. And the first time my students meet my children, they will always ask "is it true your mother doesn't spank you?" They can't see parenting that is not punitive and spanking...
Sad
Joylyn
---- Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
Sad
Joylyn
---- Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
> I've gotten in real trouble responding to someone who was asking what I would do if my child did something her child had done. She didn't want me to tell her, not really. What she wanted me to say was that kids are just bad and trouble and to give some instance or the other that was similar. I didn't do that. Instead I offered suggestions and ideas and talked about trying to think about the good things and not the bad. In the end it jeopardized Linnaea's friendship with her daughter. I don't say anything these days. I talk about many things other than her children. If she talks about them, well, it hasn't happened yet, but I try and stay as uninvolved in those kinds of conversations as I possibly can.
>
> I don't have anything to offer you. I just feel sad when I listen to people complain about their children or their partners. Neither seems to be a step in a direction that leads to anything but more misery and hatefulness.
>
> Actually, Kelly just posted a link (http://www.changestherapy.com/home.nxg) to the definition of "fogging" which might be a useful technique if you wanted to not be silent all the time.
>
> Schuyler
> www.waynforth.blogspot.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Thursday, 10 July, 2008 8:39:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: people complaining about their own kids
>
>
> On Jul 10, 2008, at 12:27 PM, DACunefare@... wrote:
>
> > **Anyway - my question is what you do when you get into a situation
> > in which
> > parents are sitting around badmouthing their own kids?**
> >
> > It depends on the circumstances. Mostly I try to just get out of those
> > situations. If I can't I try hard to stay quiet, because usually my
> > saying anything
> > isn't really going to help.
>
> This is usually what I do, too. It leaves me with a bad taste in my
> mouth, but maybe that's inevitable. I don't like feeling like I'm
> agreeing by my silence.
>
> > I'm just not eloquent enough. Sometimes I might
> > mention the things I've seen that are contrary to the negative
> > evaluation, but
> > generally that just makes things worse.
>
> Yes. And, I do sympathize with the parents. I KNOW they're hurting. I
> don't want to hurt them more.
>
> > Very occasionally with someone I know
> > really well I might point out that they themselves show a LOT of the
> > trait
> > they're castigating their child for (it's often a glaring truth).
>
> Yes - that's so true. The most self-absorbed parents complain the most
> about their selfish children. I see that a lot.
>
> > Once or twice
> > I've mentioned that I've found that the more I focus on how bad
> > things are the
> > worse they get. Mostly I suppose I try to change the subject or go
> > play with
> > the kids.
>
> I am going to a grad-school reunion on Saturday night. It won't be
> large - just ten or so people and maybe their spouses - no children. I
> already heard that a couple of them are having big problems with their
> kids. The fact that I "heard" this means they're talking about it, so
> I'm anticipating this topic will come up. These are mostly people I
> have had little to no contact with for 20-plus years. The ones I still
> see and talk to are the ones with great kids - who like their kids and
> who hang out as a family. Not a coincidence that those are the ones I
> stayed friends with, I'm sure.
>
> >
> >
> > I'm not always happy with my kids. They aren't always happy with me.
> > But I
> > think hard not to put negative labels on them *especially in my own
> > head*.
> > Declaring a person selfish, whiny, shallow, rude, inconsiderate,
> > meanspirited,
> > dishonest, untrustworthy, etc. etc. locks them into that box, if
> > only in my own
> > mind, so that ordinary human behaviours take on extraordinary
> > negative meanings,
> > and perhaps temporary conditions gain weight and gravity and
> > substance.
>
> I couldn't agree more. I think this is the crux of what makes me so
> uncomfortable. I don't want to claim that I'm always totally thrilled
> with my kids in every possible way - or them with me. But there is no
> WAY I'm going to sit around and complain. And, overall, our lives are
> SO good. And, I don't want to label my kids with those negative terms
> for all the reasons Deb gave above.
> >
> >
> > I try really really hard not to go around complaining about my kids.
> > Okay,
> > that sounds like I'm walking around a lot *feeling* like
> > complaining, which
> > isn't true at all. I mean that when I *am* for one reason or another
> > having
> > conflicts with or worries about one of my kids, that I try to be
> > especially aware of
> > how I talk/write about them to other people. It seems to me that it is
> > harmful to our relationship for me to engage in that sort of
> > negative talk where
> > people seem to be looking mostly for hand patting "there there" and
> > agreement
> > that parenting is hard and kids can be so awful (the same sort of
> > complaining a
> > lot of women seem to get into about husbands, for that matter).
> >
> > It's hard. Sometimes it seems like it's such a fine line between
> > describing a
> > situation because you're asking for help in figuring it out, asking
> > for help
> > to remember to breathe, laughing at your own foibles, and that
> > negative
> > destructive complaining. Of course a lot of the time it's a grand
> > canyon of a chasm.
>
> I'm great with people who want advice or help or ideas or just to
> brainstorm together.
>
> It is the hostility toward their kids that throws me. Sometimes it
> sounds downright hateful.
>
> -pam
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Jenny C
> Different but related, but my students at my school do not understandhow I can parent without hitting my children. It's a huge issue every
year. And the first time my students meet my children, they will always
ask "is it true your mother doesn't spank you?" They can't see parenting
that is not punitive and spanking...
>Yes, this happens at our house too. Same with no groundings. Chamille
> Sad
has simply stated on numerous occasions to various people that she
doesn't get punished for anything she does or doesn't do. A lot of kids
can't figure out how that would work or look like, they simply can't
comprehend that. A lot of kids, even though they hate being punished,
still believe that it is necessary to control their own behavior. I
find that weird!
Laureen
Heya!
On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 11:04 AM, Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
> There is a very hostile tone to all this complaining. They are angry
> at their kids for not being better, nicer, less trouble, etc.(snip)
>
> I'm so very uncomfortable with this. I don't seem to know how to
> respond. (snip)
> Anyway - my question is what you do when you get into a situation in
> which parents are sitting around badmouthing their own kids?
This has come up for me a few times too, especially since all and
sundry are questioning my sanity for having (gasp in horror) a third
baby when I already have two very energetic (totally normal, sigh)
boys and we live on a boat so we're (gasp in horror) together all the
time. And yeah, it makes me writhe. Course, same thing when it's their
spouses they're whinging about. And that one comes up all the time
too. Ugh.
But for parents complaining about their kids, I usually defer to my
parenting guru pal V. I wrote this blog post two years ago based on a
conversation with her and an incident at a restaurant.
http://elementalmom.blogspot.com/2006/07/because-we-like-them.html
(this is from my old blog; for some reason that month didn't transfer
over to my new blog)
So I shrug, and say "well, ya know, my pal V, she's got 10 kids (pause
for gasp in horror, which by experience I know comes right after that
number), and ya know... she just likes them. And it seems to work
really well. So that's kinda how I try to wing it." And then I
promptly change the subject, to let it kinda sink in.
HTH. And if not... hey, just pass the bean dip. =)
--
~~L!
~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~
Writing here:
http://www.theexcellentadventure.com/
Evolving here:
http://www.consciouswoman.org/
~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~
Sandra Dodd
-=- And those are the ones with the pretty good kids - there are some
others (two of whom I'm going to be with on Saturday night at a grad-
school reunion dinner) whose kids have really gone bad - stealing,
hard drugs and alcoholism, violence, etc.
-=-
Maybe the aikido thing to do would be to ask them why they thought
their kids were so bad. It will probably make them want to change
the subject. If you maintain a more comfortable level of discussion
by nodding and saying sorry or that's too bad, it will continue
longer, maybe.
At a barbecue with co-workers, Keith spoke out when they got into
kind of a mass complaining session about teens and jobs and how teens
don't want jobs or don't work well when they have jobs. Keith said
Kirby was however old (16, 17) and had been working since he was
14. I wasn't there, but Keith said they didn't know what to say, and
it was like he killed the conversation.
Maybe those parental dialogs are just like the mostly-worthless
"conversations" between older strangers and any child they talk to:
Simple short answers to what's your name, what grade are you in,
what's your favorite subject, do you like your teacher. That's all.
Going outside the script is kinda rude.
Maybe as the adults pre-scripted conversations used to be about the
weather, when most people were farmers, now it's about how terrible
something is: gas prices, teenagers, politics.
Sandra
others (two of whom I'm going to be with on Saturday night at a grad-
school reunion dinner) whose kids have really gone bad - stealing,
hard drugs and alcoholism, violence, etc.
-=-
Maybe the aikido thing to do would be to ask them why they thought
their kids were so bad. It will probably make them want to change
the subject. If you maintain a more comfortable level of discussion
by nodding and saying sorry or that's too bad, it will continue
longer, maybe.
At a barbecue with co-workers, Keith spoke out when they got into
kind of a mass complaining session about teens and jobs and how teens
don't want jobs or don't work well when they have jobs. Keith said
Kirby was however old (16, 17) and had been working since he was
14. I wasn't there, but Keith said they didn't know what to say, and
it was like he killed the conversation.
Maybe those parental dialogs are just like the mostly-worthless
"conversations" between older strangers and any child they talk to:
Simple short answers to what's your name, what grade are you in,
what's your favorite subject, do you like your teacher. That's all.
Going outside the script is kinda rude.
Maybe as the adults pre-scripted conversations used to be about the
weather, when most people were farmers, now it's about how terrible
something is: gas prices, teenagers, politics.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=Sometimes I just look at the parents and
listen as openmindedly as I can (not easy for me) because many people
really
aren't remembering much about being that age. Many people also choose
avoid
much memory of being a teen or young adult themselves as well.-=-
When I taught 9th grade I was across and down one from an retired-
Marine math teacher. He was a nice enough guy; not warm, wasn't
going to be friends with someone female, 20 years younger and hippy-
ish. But one day one of the girls was in tears because he had teased
her too strongly about a boy who was indeed starting to like her, and
that relationship could've been good for both of them, and he was
just casually screwin' with it. It was between classes and I went
over there, all hot-headed and adrenalated as I used to get when I
was young (and only very occasionally get now <g>) and said this and
that and that she was crying and didn't he remember how it felt to be
that age?
He softened and looked at me and visibly was thinking. And he said
"No, I really don't. And he said it gently, and a little
embarrassed. And so I softened up too, and I said "Well I do, so
please don't do that anymore."
And he got nicer.
But he didn't remember being their age and he was with 130 of them
every day.
Keith had a four hour mandatory training thing today at work. It was
about empowerment and the feeling of ownership. He said they talked
about stages of development and about what goes wrong, why kids lose
their courage and enthusiasm. They didn't blame school, and of
course he couldn't tell me for hours' worth anyway, and he and Marty
are packing to go camping, but they mentioned something about "when
kids become teens and start developing a personality."
Keith did smart back at the guy at least once, but he didn't say
anything about that one. Not to the presenter, anyway. To me. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
listen as openmindedly as I can (not easy for me) because many people
really
aren't remembering much about being that age. Many people also choose
avoid
much memory of being a teen or young adult themselves as well.-=-
When I taught 9th grade I was across and down one from an retired-
Marine math teacher. He was a nice enough guy; not warm, wasn't
going to be friends with someone female, 20 years younger and hippy-
ish. But one day one of the girls was in tears because he had teased
her too strongly about a boy who was indeed starting to like her, and
that relationship could've been good for both of them, and he was
just casually screwin' with it. It was between classes and I went
over there, all hot-headed and adrenalated as I used to get when I
was young (and only very occasionally get now <g>) and said this and
that and that she was crying and didn't he remember how it felt to be
that age?
He softened and looked at me and visibly was thinking. And he said
"No, I really don't. And he said it gently, and a little
embarrassed. And so I softened up too, and I said "Well I do, so
please don't do that anymore."
And he got nicer.
But he didn't remember being their age and he was with 130 of them
every day.
Keith had a four hour mandatory training thing today at work. It was
about empowerment and the feeling of ownership. He said they talked
about stages of development and about what goes wrong, why kids lose
their courage and enthusiasm. They didn't blame school, and of
course he couldn't tell me for hours' worth anyway, and he and Marty
are packing to go camping, but they mentioned something about "when
kids become teens and start developing a personality."
Keith did smart back at the guy at least once, but he didn't say
anything about that one. Not to the presenter, anyway. To me. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ed Wendell
Several years ago there was a child that was being teased by their father about something or other and was very upset about it. He didn't mean to be hurtful. After he left the child at school, I was able to talk to the child - they were 4 or 5 years old - and I saw right through to the "problem" because I could remember how it actually felt to be teased by my father as a young child - the emotions connected to that. The child's teacher was so amazed that I had such total empathy. I remember asking her in amazement - "Don't you remember how it felt to be a kid?" - and she said - "No, not really." Obviously neither did the father. SIGH !!!
Lisa W.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa W.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-A lot of kids
can't figure out how that would work or look like, they simply can't
comprehend that.-=-
Holly has a story of being at a party a few years back and the other
kids lighting up when she said she doesn't get in trouble at home,
and they said brightly "So you could lie all the time!"
They saw lying and getting away with it as a win, in their
relationships with parents, and figured Keith and I had stupidly
forfeited all rounds and Holly could do ALL the terrible things for
free.
From that antagonistic point of view, it can't be seen at all.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
can't figure out how that would work or look like, they simply can't
comprehend that.-=-
Holly has a story of being at a party a few years back and the other
kids lighting up when she said she doesn't get in trouble at home,
and they said brightly "So you could lie all the time!"
They saw lying and getting away with it as a win, in their
relationships with parents, and figured Keith and I had stupidly
forfeited all rounds and Holly could do ALL the terrible things for
free.
From that antagonistic point of view, it can't be seen at all.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/10/2008 2:05:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:
<<<So weird to find it slightly embarrassing to be happy with my kids.
Anyway - my question is what you do when you get into a situation in
which parents are sitting around badmouthing their own kids?>>>
How strange-I read this after I got home from a get-together where this
happened. It started out kind of mild, where I was just sitting and being
thankful for my kids and who they are. But then it got worse and I lowered my eyes,
because I was afraid if anyone looked at me, they could see exactly how I
felt. After a story where the older kid "allowed" a younger sibling to do
something without stopping it or telling a parent and the mom said she told the
older kid he was going to be in 'way more trouble than the little one because he
allowed it, I shrank in my seat and wanted to leave. It was weird how it
almost took on a "one-upping" kind of thing, for the next one to try to have a
story to show that their kid was "worse"... I usually try to change the
subject, but I didn't even attempt it in that atmosphere... Sometimes I just thing
it is "what people do", so they do it without thinking or just to fit in.
Other times, I'm not so sure...
I did get a chance to talk in depth later to one who had laughed at the
stories, but when we talked later and I shared some of the ways that I parent,
she would say, "Oh, me too!", so maybe I got in a bit of "reverse peer
pressure". No, it wasn't pressure... A different lead to follow? Maybe. At any rate,
that conversation, one-on-one ended up going much better and more hopeful and
positive. It made what could have ended as a bummer night into a pretty good
one.
I guess it depends on the people and the situation. Sometimes I try to
ignore and wait for another topic to come up, sometimes I find a way to walk away
for a while, sometimes I change the subject myself. Other times, I'm feeling
peevish and I deliberately throw out a completely opposite point of view in a
loud, proud way (rather obnoxiously). Inevitably, I'll get
deer-in-the-headlight, nonplused looks, a brief silence will fall, and then someone *else*
changes the subject. But I'm not often in the right frame of mind for that. :~)
Funny, I could likely have been telling these same stories and making the
same complaints 12 years ago-or if I hadn't found my way to this lifestyle.
Things that make you go, "hmmmmm..."
Peace,
De
**************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music
scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!
(http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamsoroosh@... writes:
<<<So weird to find it slightly embarrassing to be happy with my kids.
Anyway - my question is what you do when you get into a situation in
which parents are sitting around badmouthing their own kids?>>>
How strange-I read this after I got home from a get-together where this
happened. It started out kind of mild, where I was just sitting and being
thankful for my kids and who they are. But then it got worse and I lowered my eyes,
because I was afraid if anyone looked at me, they could see exactly how I
felt. After a story where the older kid "allowed" a younger sibling to do
something without stopping it or telling a parent and the mom said she told the
older kid he was going to be in 'way more trouble than the little one because he
allowed it, I shrank in my seat and wanted to leave. It was weird how it
almost took on a "one-upping" kind of thing, for the next one to try to have a
story to show that their kid was "worse"... I usually try to change the
subject, but I didn't even attempt it in that atmosphere... Sometimes I just thing
it is "what people do", so they do it without thinking or just to fit in.
Other times, I'm not so sure...
I did get a chance to talk in depth later to one who had laughed at the
stories, but when we talked later and I shared some of the ways that I parent,
she would say, "Oh, me too!", so maybe I got in a bit of "reverse peer
pressure". No, it wasn't pressure... A different lead to follow? Maybe. At any rate,
that conversation, one-on-one ended up going much better and more hopeful and
positive. It made what could have ended as a bummer night into a pretty good
one.
I guess it depends on the people and the situation. Sometimes I try to
ignore and wait for another topic to come up, sometimes I find a way to walk away
for a while, sometimes I change the subject myself. Other times, I'm feeling
peevish and I deliberately throw out a completely opposite point of view in a
loud, proud way (rather obnoxiously). Inevitably, I'll get
deer-in-the-headlight, nonplused looks, a brief silence will fall, and then someone *else*
changes the subject. But I'm not often in the right frame of mind for that. :~)
Funny, I could likely have been telling these same stories and making the
same complaints 12 years ago-or if I hadn't found my way to this lifestyle.
Things that make you go, "hmmmmm..."
Peace,
De
**************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music
scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!
(http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jennifer Varela
>Usually I sympathize, because I can feel their pain (and the child's pain).
> In a message dated 7/10/2008 2:05:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> pamsoroosh@... writes:
>
> <<<So weird to find it slightly embarrassing to be happy with my kids.
>
> Anyway - my question is what you do when you get into a situation in
> which parents are sitting around badmouthing their own kids?>>>
>
Then, I will pick something out of the conversation that I agree with. It
reminds me a little of the Fogging that I just read about. Say a mom was
telling a story about stuff her children did at a park, I might say "oh, we
love to go to the park, have you gone to this one or that one?". It's
changing the subject, but, picking something out of the story so that it's
not way out there. I have on occasion offered suggestions. I might just
inquire "have you tried this?" or "my kids respond well to this". If I
can't find anything to say, I do just stay quiet. Which sometimes says more
than any words I could find.
Jen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Funny, I could likely have been telling these same stories and
making the
same complaints 12 years ago-or if I hadn't found my way to this
lifestyle. -=-
Most to all of us, I'm sure.
For me, the combination of La Leche League and Adult Children of
Alcoholics helped immensely to put me in a better frame of mind than
the one I brought out of my own upbringing. But how many gathousands
of people have had a sweet first few years with their children, and
then put them in school? Even with a flawless start (which my kids
didn't have, I'm not saying that at all--I was figuring it out
roughly sometimes), school could take down all progress, and does
with some kids.
I suspect that part of what happens when the bond is broken by school
(consciously and deliberately in many cases), not only does the child
lose faith in and desire for the parent, but the parent resigns
himself or herself to the loss of that relationship. That would
explain, in part, why touching and hugging stop.
There are other times and places and situations in which kids are
separated from parents, some earlier, and some later but more
permanently. Fostering, in England and France (and I don't know
whereall else) in the Middle Ages. The stories of Sparta, if Greek
historians are to be believed. Israel in the 1960's (maybe still,
maybe never) with assigned jobs and kibbutz daycare (or worse). Our
culture is not the worst.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
making the
same complaints 12 years ago-or if I hadn't found my way to this
lifestyle. -=-
Most to all of us, I'm sure.
For me, the combination of La Leche League and Adult Children of
Alcoholics helped immensely to put me in a better frame of mind than
the one I brought out of my own upbringing. But how many gathousands
of people have had a sweet first few years with their children, and
then put them in school? Even with a flawless start (which my kids
didn't have, I'm not saying that at all--I was figuring it out
roughly sometimes), school could take down all progress, and does
with some kids.
I suspect that part of what happens when the bond is broken by school
(consciously and deliberately in many cases), not only does the child
lose faith in and desire for the parent, but the parent resigns
himself or herself to the loss of that relationship. That would
explain, in part, why touching and hugging stop.
There are other times and places and situations in which kids are
separated from parents, some earlier, and some later but more
permanently. Fostering, in England and France (and I don't know
whereall else) in the Middle Ages. The stories of Sparta, if Greek
historians are to be believed. Israel in the 1960's (maybe still,
maybe never) with assigned jobs and kibbutz daycare (or worse). Our
culture is not the worst.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
In Paris in 1780, of the 21,000 registered births, 95% were wet-nursed. Some were lucky enough to have the wet-nurse on site, but often the infants were sent to the country to a woman who was well-endowed with milk. 25% of infants were put into foundling homes which had an 80% mortality rate (the foundling homes had to get the infants quickly to a wet-nurse, but quickly was often 2 days later, not quite quick enough). The toddlers would be returned to their natal family when they were weaned, as long as the family paid the 8 livres a month (20% of a artisans family budget) for the service. I'm reading a very interesting book that touches on that at the moment.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
---------
There are other times and places and situations in which kids are
separated from parents, some earlier, and some later but more
permanently. Fostering, in England and France (and I don't know
whereall else) in the Middle Ages. The stories of Sparta, if Greek
historians are to be believed. Israel in the 1960's (maybe still,
maybe never) with assigned jobs and kibbutz daycare (or worse). Our
culture is not the worst.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
---------
There are other times and places and situations in which kids are
separated from parents, some earlier, and some later but more
permanently. Fostering, in England and France (and I don't know
whereall else) in the Middle Ages. The stories of Sparta, if Greek
historians are to be believed. Israel in the 1960's (maybe still,
maybe never) with assigned jobs and kibbutz daycare (or worse). Our
culture is not the worst.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
A great book to read is Becoming Attached by Robert Karan
It goes deep into attachment theories and what happens with separation in many different forms.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
----- Original Message ----
From: Schuyler <s.waynforth@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 9:42:03 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] people complaining about their own kids
In Paris in 1780, of the 21,000 registered births, 95% were wet-nursed. Some were lucky enough to have the wet-nurse on site, but often the infants were sent to the country to a woman who was well-endowed with milk. 25% of infants were put into foundling homes which had an 80% mortality rate (the foundling homes had to get the infants quickly to a wet-nurse, but quickly was often 2 days later, not quite quick enough). The toddlers would be returned to their natal family when they were weaned, as long as the family paid the 8 livres a month (20% of a artisans family budget) for the service. I'm reading a very interesting book that touches on that at the moment.
Schuyler
www.waynforth. blogspot. com
---------
There are other times and places and situations in which kids are
separated from parents, some earlier, and some later but more
permanently. Fostering, in England and France (and I don't know
whereall else) in the Middle Ages. The stories of Sparta, if Greek
historians are to be believed. Israel in the 1960's (maybe still,
maybe never) with assigned jobs and kibbutz daycare (or worse). Our
culture is not the worst.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------ --------- --------- ------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It goes deep into attachment theories and what happens with separation in many different forms.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
----- Original Message ----
From: Schuyler <s.waynforth@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 9:42:03 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] people complaining about their own kids
In Paris in 1780, of the 21,000 registered births, 95% were wet-nursed. Some were lucky enough to have the wet-nurse on site, but often the infants were sent to the country to a woman who was well-endowed with milk. 25% of infants were put into foundling homes which had an 80% mortality rate (the foundling homes had to get the infants quickly to a wet-nurse, but quickly was often 2 days later, not quite quick enough). The toddlers would be returned to their natal family when they were weaned, as long as the family paid the 8 livres a month (20% of a artisans family budget) for the service. I'm reading a very interesting book that touches on that at the moment.
Schuyler
www.waynforth. blogspot. com
---------
There are other times and places and situations in which kids are
separated from parents, some earlier, and some later but more
permanently. Fostering, in England and France (and I don't know
whereall else) in the Middle Ages. The stories of Sparta, if Greek
historians are to be believed. Israel in the 1960's (maybe still,
maybe never) with assigned jobs and kibbutz daycare (or worse). Our
culture is not the worst.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------ --------- --------- ------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
MLewis
>first off, don't be embarassed! Although I think what you might have
> So weird to find it slightly embarrassing to be happy with my kids.
>
> Anyway - my question is what you do when you get into a situation in
> which parents are sitting around badmouthing their own kids?
>
> -pam
>
meant was that you feel "odd-man-out"? It's great that you have older
children and know that the parent/child relationship can be different
and you have the proof that your way is BETTER ;-) So when you find
yourself in that situation, ground yourself in your truth. Instead of
feeling out of it, you could choose to be the mentor.
Depending on the other parents involved I've been known to say:
"Do you ever say anything nice about your children?"
"I don't find that to be true about teenagers at all!"
"I have two teens and think they're fabulous!!!"
"I've loved every stage that my children have gone through."
"It's hurting my spirit to hear you say all these negative things about
your child."
"Do you say that where your child can HEAR you??"
"So....tell me something good about your child."
Complaining about children has become a bonding ritual in our cut
up/isolated society..a way that someone can quickly find "common
ground" with another. "oh...we both have kids?? Let's complain about
them!" Kind of like moaning about your sports team. So much like
saying "sorry...I'm not into sports" you can state your position of
not being into child-bashing. And then find something that you can
talk about.
Mary
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Complaining about children has become a bonding ritual in our cut
up/isolated society..a way that someone can quickly find "common
ground" with another. "oh...we both have kids?? Let's complain about
them!" Kind of like moaning about your sports team. So much like
saying "sorry...I'm not into sports" you can state your position of
not being into child-bashing. And then find something that you can
talk about.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Complaining about children and spouses is pretty commom. It starts when moms get the:
"Is he/she a good baby?"
for which I answered:
"All babies are good!"
And was usually followed by:
" I mean does she/he sleeps through the night?"
and on and on...
Depending on the person I just nod or I mke coments like:
"Being strong willed is a great quality."
" He must know what he wants and that is good"
and so on.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
up/isolated society..a way that someone can quickly find "common
ground" with another. "oh...we both have kids?? Let's complain about
them!" Kind of like moaning about your sports team. So much like
saying "sorry...I'm not into sports" you can state your position of
not being into child-bashing. And then find something that you can
talk about.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Complaining about children and spouses is pretty commom. It starts when moms get the:
"Is he/she a good baby?"
for which I answered:
"All babies are good!"
And was usually followed by:
" I mean does she/he sleeps through the night?"
and on and on...
Depending on the person I just nod or I mke coments like:
"Being strong willed is a great quality."
" He must know what he wants and that is good"
and so on.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/11/2008 10:23:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Sandra@... writes:
<<<I suspect that part of what happens when the bond is broken by school
(consciously and deliberately in many cases), not only does the child
lose faith in and desire for the parent, but the parent resigns
himself or herself to the loss of that relationship. That would
explain, in part, why touching and hugging stop.>>>
It's not even always *strictly* school, but the societal mentality that has
come to be about "the age of school". That's when my disconnect with Wyl
happened. It is that concept that now they're 5 and they've started this "growing
up" process... or maybe parents disconnect emotionally from their kids so
they're not sad and missing them all day... I'm not sure. I just know that SO
many people view "kindergarten age" (and even into preschool age, now) as some
sort of emotional shift that needs to come about.
I hated how my relationship with Wyl had gotten and my grumpiness with it
ended up transferring to him-as if the thing were *his* fault!! It wasn't until
I got so much wisdom from this group and Always Unschooled that I was able to
stop and retrace my steps to "find" ourselves again. Now, we are happily
snuggling, hugging, sharing, joking-even our disagreements are gentle, now. The
antagonism is gone. I've found understanding and peace with Wyl and I'm
seeing him as *Wyl* now, not the kid who's not doing/behaving/being as he "should"
be. I'm seeing him as a person who still needs help and guidance and
compassion not a difficult kid who isn't "measuring up" to some vague standard of
behavior or social comportment. Thank goodness.
I've lost my train of thought. The joy of my children has gotten too loud
for me to fish thoughts out of my brain, so I'm off to enjoy their joy.
Peace,
De
**************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music
scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!
(http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra@... writes:
<<<I suspect that part of what happens when the bond is broken by school
(consciously and deliberately in many cases), not only does the child
lose faith in and desire for the parent, but the parent resigns
himself or herself to the loss of that relationship. That would
explain, in part, why touching and hugging stop.>>>
It's not even always *strictly* school, but the societal mentality that has
come to be about "the age of school". That's when my disconnect with Wyl
happened. It is that concept that now they're 5 and they've started this "growing
up" process... or maybe parents disconnect emotionally from their kids so
they're not sad and missing them all day... I'm not sure. I just know that SO
many people view "kindergarten age" (and even into preschool age, now) as some
sort of emotional shift that needs to come about.
I hated how my relationship with Wyl had gotten and my grumpiness with it
ended up transferring to him-as if the thing were *his* fault!! It wasn't until
I got so much wisdom from this group and Always Unschooled that I was able to
stop and retrace my steps to "find" ourselves again. Now, we are happily
snuggling, hugging, sharing, joking-even our disagreements are gentle, now. The
antagonism is gone. I've found understanding and peace with Wyl and I'm
seeing him as *Wyl* now, not the kid who's not doing/behaving/being as he "should"
be. I'm seeing him as a person who still needs help and guidance and
compassion not a difficult kid who isn't "measuring up" to some vague standard of
behavior or social comportment. Thank goodness.
I've lost my train of thought. The joy of my children has gotten too loud
for me to fish thoughts out of my brain, so I'm off to enjoy their joy.
Peace,
De
**************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music
scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!
(http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jul 11, 2008, at 10:51 AM, MLewis wrote:
Sandra suggested I ask them why they thought their kids were so bad?
I can imagine doing that in a way that is kind and I can see some
possible good coming from that question, if not for them, for other
people who are listening, whose kids are still young. And I can also
see that it might make them want to immediately change the subject.
I can also see doing what Mary describes - treating it like a
discussion that I just can't participate in because it isn't my
"thing." The only problem with that is that I 'do' have kids and they
know it and they are sort of waiting for me to take my turn. Even
silence is a social blunder in this "bonding ritual" as Mary so well
described it.
The problem is, of course, I'm talking about situations when I don't
want to offend people. If I didn't mind offending them, I'd just say,
"Talking about your kid this way isn't nice. You might have fewer
problems with him if you were nicer."
-pam
> Complaining about children has become a bonding ritual in our cutYES - you've nailed it.
> up/isolated society..a way that someone can quickly find "common
> ground" with another. "oh...we both have kids?? Let's complain about
> them!" Kind of like moaning about your sports team. So much like
> saying "sorry...I'm not into sports" you can state your position of
> not being into child-bashing. And then find something that you can
> talk about.
Sandra suggested I ask them why they thought their kids were so bad?
I can imagine doing that in a way that is kind and I can see some
possible good coming from that question, if not for them, for other
people who are listening, whose kids are still young. And I can also
see that it might make them want to immediately change the subject.
I can also see doing what Mary describes - treating it like a
discussion that I just can't participate in because it isn't my
"thing." The only problem with that is that I 'do' have kids and they
know it and they are sort of waiting for me to take my turn. Even
silence is a social blunder in this "bonding ritual" as Mary so well
described it.
The problem is, of course, I'm talking about situations when I don't
want to offend people. If I didn't mind offending them, I'd just say,
"Talking about your kid this way isn't nice. You might have fewer
problems with him if you were nicer."
-pam
MLewis
> I can also see doing what Mary describes - treating it like athey
> discussion that I just can't participate in because it isn't my
> "thing." The only problem with that is that I 'do' have kids and
> know it and they are sort of waiting for me to take my turn. EvenHow about when it comes to your turn you smile, laugh and say "sorry,
> silence is a social blunder in this "bonding ritual" as Mary so well
> described it.
I'm trying to come up with something, but I keep coming up with the
good stuff to say about my kids... is it OK to tell you those??"
What are they gonna say, "no, we only wanna hear the problems"?
> The problem is, of course, I'm talking about situations when Idon't
> want to offend people.I don't see how they can be offended by the above.
If I didn't mind offending them, I'd just say,
> "Talking about your kid this way isn't nice. You might have fewerLess offensive to just say the talking isn't nice. It's when it gets
> problems with him if you were nicer."
into "you'd have fewer problems" that the defenses REALLY go up.
Best to keep it about you and not about them.
Mary
And Tim just told me that he says "wow..I can tell your life is
really hard, would you like some chocolate??"
Sandra Dodd
-=-I can also see doing what Mary describes - treating it like a
discussion that I just can't participate in because it isn't my
"thing." The only problem with that is that I 'do' have kids and they
know it and they are sort of waiting for me to take my turn. Even
silence is a social blunder in this "bonding ritual" as Mary so well
described it.-=-
That sort of thing even happens without being in person. I got some
heartrending "jokes" by e-mail, and responded to the full list saying
I didn't think it was funny at all, and I saw sorry they did. Some
of them were teachers. One was a friend of mine from 1978, who came
to stay with me when Kirby was due (and had to give up and go home
when he didn't arrive on time), and I had kept in touch with her for
a long, long time. A nice Mormon friend from Salt Lake City.
Because I objected, I got two RUDE e-mails from people I didn't know,
and my friend wasn't my friend anymore.
So...
I could have kept her friendship at the cost of quietly condoning the
derision of children, and of the assumptions that when adults are
mean to children it's no big deal. I was sad to lose that friend,
but not sad enough to participate even in the enjoyment of the idea
of the mistreatment of children.
I know, no children were harmed in the passing on of jokes by e-mail,
but were women harmed by rape jokes? Were Rastus and Liza jokes
harmless? There's physical harm, but then there's social erosion.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
discussion that I just can't participate in because it isn't my
"thing." The only problem with that is that I 'do' have kids and they
know it and they are sort of waiting for me to take my turn. Even
silence is a social blunder in this "bonding ritual" as Mary so well
described it.-=-
That sort of thing even happens without being in person. I got some
heartrending "jokes" by e-mail, and responded to the full list saying
I didn't think it was funny at all, and I saw sorry they did. Some
of them were teachers. One was a friend of mine from 1978, who came
to stay with me when Kirby was due (and had to give up and go home
when he didn't arrive on time), and I had kept in touch with her for
a long, long time. A nice Mormon friend from Salt Lake City.
Because I objected, I got two RUDE e-mails from people I didn't know,
and my friend wasn't my friend anymore.
So...
I could have kept her friendship at the cost of quietly condoning the
derision of children, and of the assumptions that when adults are
mean to children it's no big deal. I was sad to lose that friend,
but not sad enough to participate even in the enjoyment of the idea
of the mistreatment of children.
I know, no children were harmed in the passing on of jokes by e-mail,
but were women harmed by rape jokes? Were Rastus and Liza jokes
harmless? There's physical harm, but then there's social erosion.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
diana jenner
On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 10:51 AM, MLewis <m9f9l@...> wrote:
Chance is soon 17 and I've known him since he was 2. The minute my friend
(Mary Gold) and I crossed the threshold, the boy fell to pieces... he was a
churning, bubbling, boiling vat of frustration and more frustration and in
dire, desperate need to be heard. Thankfully, Mary happens to be the
unschooling mama of a couple of pretty cool teens and happens to spend a lot
of time with a lot of really cool unschooling kids. We "tag teamed" them (me
with mom, her with Chance) for a while, then we had a big venting where we
restrained mom from responding, encouraged pure listening. Then we talked
and talked and talked and talked about how much we love the teens in our
lives and how it doesn't *have to* be any shitty way that any *well
respected* whomevers are telling you it does. When we extolled Chance's
virtues, she responded, "Everyone says that." She doesn't believe them, she
doesn't see the amazing human he *is* -- she sees what she fears he'll
*become.* And she has really scary fears. Unfounded and unrealistic and
really freaking scary. I want her to see the GIFT her kid *is* right this
very moment. I want her to like her kid. I want her to *want to* be on his
team. I asked her to think about, just for a moment, what it would have been
like if she had a parent *on her team* supporting CHRISTINE in her life
experience, whatever that meant for Christine.... Could you strive to be
that parent to Chance?
Somewhere, something got shaken up enough for her to at least move between
this adversarial bs and practice some team approach. She now *wants to* like
her kid & is investing time in seeking out more good things on her own...
it's tough. She realizes the clock is ticking, quite loudly.
More peaceful today than yesterday... that's a good goal for her at this
point, the small things count. More little yeses, make the nos thoughtful
and considerate. Less arbitrary. More trust.
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Last month I had a whirlwind visit with my best friend and her son, in LA.
> "Do you ever say anything nice about your children?"
> "I don't find that to be true about teenagers at all!"
> "I have two teens and think they're fabulous!!!"
> "I've loved every stage that my children have gone through."
> "It's hurting my spirit to hear you say all these negative things about
> your child."
> "Do you say that where your child can HEAR you??"
> "So....tell me something good about your child."
>
> Complaining about children has become a bonding ritual in our cut
> up/isolated society..a way that someone can quickly find "common
> ground" with another. "oh...we both have kids?? Let's complain about
> them!" Kind of like moaning about your sports team. So much like
> saying "sorry...I'm not into sports" you can state your position of
> not being into child-bashing. And then find something that you can
> talk about
>
>
>
Chance is soon 17 and I've known him since he was 2. The minute my friend
(Mary Gold) and I crossed the threshold, the boy fell to pieces... he was a
churning, bubbling, boiling vat of frustration and more frustration and in
dire, desperate need to be heard. Thankfully, Mary happens to be the
unschooling mama of a couple of pretty cool teens and happens to spend a lot
of time with a lot of really cool unschooling kids. We "tag teamed" them (me
with mom, her with Chance) for a while, then we had a big venting where we
restrained mom from responding, encouraged pure listening. Then we talked
and talked and talked and talked about how much we love the teens in our
lives and how it doesn't *have to* be any shitty way that any *well
respected* whomevers are telling you it does. When we extolled Chance's
virtues, she responded, "Everyone says that." She doesn't believe them, she
doesn't see the amazing human he *is* -- she sees what she fears he'll
*become.* And she has really scary fears. Unfounded and unrealistic and
really freaking scary. I want her to see the GIFT her kid *is* right this
very moment. I want her to like her kid. I want her to *want to* be on his
team. I asked her to think about, just for a moment, what it would have been
like if she had a parent *on her team* supporting CHRISTINE in her life
experience, whatever that meant for Christine.... Could you strive to be
that parent to Chance?
Somewhere, something got shaken up enough for her to at least move between
this adversarial bs and practice some team approach. She now *wants to* like
her kid & is investing time in seeking out more good things on her own...
it's tough. She realizes the clock is ticking, quite loudly.
More peaceful today than yesterday... that's a good goal for her at this
point, the small things count. More little yeses, make the nos thoughtful
and considerate. Less arbitrary. More trust.
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
Seventeen is way better than never. Part of what holds parents up is the
posts I've seen lately around unschooling boards about guilt for not
*getting it* sooner. Letting go of guilt for screwing things up. Happily
getting on with mindful conscious decisions about the choices open to us.
And being happy about it.
If this momma can break through and keep striding forward, it will mean so
much to them both to have a closer relationship. I am so pleased and very
fortunate to have some kind of relaxed peaceful relationship with my folks
even if it's still at arm's length, even if there's still tons of
differences getting in the way of real closeness.
Chance... very appropriate name.
~Katherine
posts I've seen lately around unschooling boards about guilt for not
*getting it* sooner. Letting go of guilt for screwing things up. Happily
getting on with mindful conscious decisions about the choices open to us.
And being happy about it.
If this momma can break through and keep striding forward, it will mean so
much to them both to have a closer relationship. I am so pleased and very
fortunate to have some kind of relaxed peaceful relationship with my folks
even if it's still at arm's length, even if there's still tons of
differences getting in the way of real closeness.
Chance... very appropriate name.
~Katherine
On 7/11/08, diana jenner <hahamommy@...> wrote:
>
> Last month I had a whirlwind visit with my best friend and her son, in LA.
> Chance is soon 17 and I've known him since he was 2. The minute my friend
> (Mary Gold) and I crossed the threshold, the boy fell to pieces... he was a
> churning, bubbling, boiling vat of frustration and more frustration and in
> dire, desperate need to be heard. Thankfully, Mary happens to be the
> unschooling mama of a couple of pretty cool teens and happens to spend a
> lot
> of time with a lot of really cool unschooling kids. We "tag teamed" them
> (me
> with mom, her with Chance) for a while, then we had a big venting where we
> restrained mom from responding, encouraged pure listening. Then we talked
> and talked and talked and talked about how much we love the teens in our
> lives and how it doesn't *have to* be any shitty way that any *well
> respected* whomevers are telling you it does. When we extolled Chance's
> virtues, she responded, "Everyone says that." She doesn't believe them, she
> doesn't see the amazing human he *is* -- she sees what she fears he'll
> *become.* And she has really scary fears. Unfounded and unrealistic and
> really freaking scary. I want her to see the GIFT her kid *is* right this
> very moment. I want her to like her kid. I want her to *want to* be on his
> team. I asked her to think about, just for a moment, what it would have
> been
> like if she had a parent *on her team* supporting CHRISTINE in her life
> experience, whatever that meant for Christine.... Could you strive to be
> that parent to Chance?
> Somewhere, something got shaken up enough for her to at least move between
> this adversarial bs and practice some team approach. She now *wants to*
> like
> her kid & is investing time in seeking out more good things on her own...
> it's tough. She realizes the clock is ticking, quite loudly.
> More peaceful today than yesterday... that's a good goal for her at this
> point, the small things count. More little yeses, make the nos thoughtful
> and considerate. Less arbitrary. More trust.
> --
> ~diana :)
> xoxoxoxo
> hannahbearski.blogspot.com
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Part of what holds parents up is the
posts I've seen lately around unschooling boards about guilt for not
*getting it* sooner. -=-
How does that hold them up?
Here, I have a whole collection of them:
http://sandradodd.com/ifonly
Do you think that's keeping people from moving forward?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
posts I've seen lately around unschooling boards about guilt for not
*getting it* sooner. -=-
How does that hold them up?
Here, I have a whole collection of them:
http://sandradodd.com/ifonly
Do you think that's keeping people from moving forward?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Melissa Dietrick
--- In [email protected], "MLewis" <m9f9l@...> wrote:
so, so thank you mary for your words...
for me that is the feeling, odd man out. Not embarassed. I used to
get alot of those moments, where others discuss their children in a
negative way, but the past few years or so, the conversations have
turned tides. I couldnt put my finger on it but I think this is why:
It's great that you have older
as well. Where ever I go, there are a bunch of us. And it is obvious
we are happy together and having a good time. And they are what
people call "good children" in the sense that they dont race about or
talk back or act sullen.
And because Ive always said that I have so many children because I
like them (schuyler, your blog post was just beautiful--ive stuck it
in my translating bag)...well Im thinking that the moments for people
to start complaining just wash away because Ive chosen in the past few
years to be the mentor: if I can do it, anybody can. You just need
the desire. That is how I present myself now. I am proud of being a
mamma of 7, I have earned my masters degree and am working on my phd
in mothering so to speak--
conciously thinking it as a motto.
" when is the last time you actually looked in your childs eyes and
smiled?"
And it is totally okay to shift conversations to a different pov. So
why not when the conversation is about child bashing, or husband
bashing ? its okay to say, hey, my kids are great, and I think yours
probably are too, if you took the time to see it.
The more you see it, the more they will be it.
thanks mary for such a nice direct post.
melissa in italy
mamma of 7
and loving every minute.
>Ive been trying to come into this discussion and having trouble to do
> >
> > So weird to find it slightly embarrassing to be happy with my kids.
> >
> > Anyway - my question is what you do when you get into a situation in
> > which parents are sitting around badmouthing their own kids?
> >
> > -pam
> >
>
> first off, don't be embarassed! Although I think what you might have
> meant was that you feel "odd-man-out"?
so, so thank you mary for your words...
for me that is the feeling, odd man out. Not embarassed. I used to
get alot of those moments, where others discuss their children in a
negative way, but the past few years or so, the conversations have
turned tides. I couldnt put my finger on it but I think this is why:
It's great that you have older
> children and know that the parent/child relationship can be differentnot only do I have older children, but i still have a crew of smallies
> and you have the proof that your way is BETTER ;-)
as well. Where ever I go, there are a bunch of us. And it is obvious
we are happy together and having a good time. And they are what
people call "good children" in the sense that they dont race about or
talk back or act sullen.
And because Ive always said that I have so many children because I
like them (schuyler, your blog post was just beautiful--ive stuck it
in my translating bag)...well Im thinking that the moments for people
to start complaining just wash away because Ive chosen in the past few
years to be the mentor: if I can do it, anybody can. You just need
the desire. That is how I present myself now. I am proud of being a
mamma of 7, I have earned my masters degree and am working on my phd
in mothering so to speak--
> So when you findso thank you for making this so clear. Ive been doing it but not
> yourself in that situation, ground yourself in your truth. Instead of
> feeling out of it, you could choose to be the mentor.
conciously thinking it as a motto.
>Yes! I also ask
> Depending on the other parents involved I've been known to say:
>
> "Do you ever say anything nice about your children?"
> "I don't find that to be true about teenagers at all!"
> "I have two teens and think they're fabulous!!!"
> "I've loved every stage that my children have gone through."
> "It's hurting my spirit to hear you say all these negative things about
> your child."
> "Do you say that where your child can HEAR you??"
> "So....tell me something good about your child."
" when is the last time you actually looked in your childs eyes and
smiled?"
>Exactly! Its okay to not be interested in a topic of conversation.
> Complaining about children has become a bonding ritual in our cut
> up/isolated society..a way that someone can quickly find "common
> ground" with another. "oh...we both have kids?? Let's complain about
> them!" Kind of like moaning about your sports team. So much like
> saying "sorry...I'm not into sports" you can state your position of
> not being into child-bashing. And then find something that you can
> talk about.
And it is totally okay to shift conversations to a different pov. So
why not when the conversation is about child bashing, or husband
bashing ? its okay to say, hey, my kids are great, and I think yours
probably are too, if you took the time to see it.
The more you see it, the more they will be it.
thanks mary for such a nice direct post.
melissa in italy
mamma of 7
and loving every minute.