[email protected]

In a message dated 1/31/2002 10:46:52 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:


> If you are judging me strictly by my age, then I
> would, and feel right in saying so, that you were
> pre-judging me, regardless of your experience. Your
> experience is not mine, your personality is not mine,
> so you really could not judge me rightly just from
> knowing my age.


This is just so hard to follow -- what do you even mean by "judging?"

If you mean juding that, indeed, you have fewer years of experience then that
is just a fact.

If you mean judging that your "ideas" are less brilliant - than that's silly,
we'll all judge your ideas on their merits, I'm sure.

If you are under 34, you are closer in age to my daughter than to me. Your
experience AS a teenager and young adult can be valuable to me and I
appreciate it.

If your children are under 11, then your experience with your own children
isn't as valuable to me because I've been there 3 times with my own kids and
umpteen b'zillions of times with my family and friends' kids. Not that your
kids and your experiences might not be a little different and they certainly
are often interesting to me - I ENJOY hearing about them - and once in a
while someone might come up with a really interesting new idea, but mostly
I've heard it before and seen it with my own eyes. It isn't a reflection of
any of you not being brilliant and wonderful and insightful and fully
understanding of unschooling ideas. It isn't YOU - it is me - I'm just not
needy in that way anymore.

So we don't have a fully symmetric relationship. That's life. It is as it
should be. Don't get all heated up and feel like you're not respected. You
are. I cannot begin to tell you how much I admire many of you. But, it is
natural for the old to remind the young to slow down and stop talking
themselves and to spend some time listening instead, especially when they are
talking talking talking and not appearing to realize that they aren't really
paying attention, but just spouting their own opinions. Societies in which
age and experience are not respected are really sad - this society is so very
much like that and it limits our ability to make social progress. Each new
generation discounting the value of the experience of the previous one.
Sadder to see it in unschoolers, for some reason.

--pam


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sharon Rudd

>...........
If your children are under 11, then your experience
> with your own children
> isn't as valuable to me because I've been there 3
> times with my own kids and
> umpteen b'zillions of times with my family and
> friends' kids. Not that your
> kids and your experiences might not be a little
> different and they certainly
> are often interesting to me - I ENJOY hearing about
> them - and once in a
> while someone might come up with a really
> interesting new idea, but mostly
> I've heard it before and seen it with my own eyes.
> It isn't a reflection of
> any of you not being brilliant and wonderful and
> insightful and fully
> understanding of unschooling ideas. It isn't YOU -
> it is me - I'm just not
> needy in that way anymore.............
>
> --pam

But Pam, What if you are blessed with the status of
Grandmother?
Sharon of the Swamp

__________________________________________________
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Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
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Earth Witch

>
>
> This is just so hard to follow -- what do you even
> mean by "judging?"

Assuming I am a certian way because of my age. For
example, assuming that all people of the gen X age are
disrespectful, spoiled, and niave.

> If you mean judging that your "ideas" are less
> brilliant - than that's silly,
> we'll all judge your ideas on their merits, I'm
> sure.

I hope so. Although I am not sure that is the case.

>
> If you are under 34, you are closer in age to my
> daughter than to me. Your
> experience AS a teenager and young adult can be
> valuable to me and I
> appreciate it.

That agrees with what I was saying, that experience
does not just have to be from the parent point of view
to be valuable.


>Not that your
> kids and your experiences might not be a little
> different and they certainly
> are often interesting to me - I ENJOY hearing about
> them - and once in a
> while someone might come up with a really
> interesting new idea, but mostly
> I've heard it before and seen it with my own eyes.
> It isn't a reflection of
> any of you not being brilliant and wonderful and
> insightful and fully
> understanding of unschooling ideas. It isn't YOU -
> it is me - I'm just not
> needy in that way anymore.

Understandable.

>Don't get all heated up and feel like
> you're not respected.

I'm not. Just wanted to discuss it because some posts
came across as saying that younger age and less
experience means the persons comments are not as
valuable. I am not sure anyone meant that and I
personally am not offended. It is a topic I feel is
important to discuss.

.> But, it is
> natural for the old to remind the young to slow down
> and stop talking
> themselves and to spend some time listening instead,
> especially when they are
> talking talking talking and not appearing to realize
> that they aren't really
> paying attention, but just spouting their own
> opinions.

Funny, as a young person I could say the same about
some older relatives of mine who think they have
nothing more to learn. I may be talking a lot now,
but it was after deep thought on the subject and
discussing it with my dh and reading the posts here,
some more than once. I have been on this list since
early Dec. and rarely post, so I hope you do not feel
that I am just spouting my opinions.

>Societies in which
> age and experience are not respected are really sad
> - this society is so very
> much like that and it limits our ability to make
> social progress. Each new
> generation discounting the value of the experience
> of the previous one.
> Sadder to see it in unschoolers, for some reason.
>
> --pam
>

I am not discounting my elders. That is my point, not
to discount some one based on age, be they younger or
older. I have learned a lot from people older than
me. I have also learned a lot from children and
people my age. I respect people for who they are. I
would not respect some one JUST because they are
older, though, if their behavior did not merit my
respect.


Kitrina

__________________________________________________
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[email protected]

In a message dated 1/31/2002 1:28:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:


> but the point is that it
> has to do with who I am, not my age, and that even as
> a young, newer parent I may have something useful to
> offer.

Kitrina --

So you're making the point that younger newer parents may have something
useful to offer? Nobody has once said that isn't true.

You might ask yourself why you are repeatedly making a point that nobody is
disagreeing with.

After having having muddled debates that end up with other people telling us
that we're missing the point or arguing a point that isn't relevant, some
people learn by experience to spend more time getting really good clarity on
what the other person means before they argue back. Trial and error - lots of
discussions over many years -- these were learning experiences. This might be
one for you.

Can you see the difference between saying:

1. Younger newer parents have nothing useful to offer.

2. Younger newer parents here on this list have the opportunity to learn from
the experience of long-term mindful unschooling parents with older kids. If
the younger newer parents dig in their heels and argue too much, instead of
doing more listening, they'll miss out on good information and advice. So -
in the Monday tv debate - when long-term unschoolers were talking about how
unlimited tv HAD worked in their families, over the years, and people with 2
year olds were sending us websites to convince us that tv would turn our kids
into zombies, younger newer-to-unschooling parents were advised that they'd
be better off to talk less and listen more.

Nobody made statement 1 and it just makes your inexperience (in discussions
of this kind) more and more apparent when you keep arguing as if they did.

--pam



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heather Madrone

At 11:38 AM 02/01/2002 -0500, PSoroosh@... wrote:
>2. Younger newer parents here on this list have the opportunity to learn from
>the experience of long-term mindful unschooling parents with older kids. If
>the younger newer parents dig in their heels and argue too much, instead of
>doing more listening, they'll miss out on good information and advice. So -
>in the Monday tv debate - when long-term unschoolers were talking about how
>unlimited tv HAD worked in their families, over the years, and people with 2
>year olds were sending us websites to convince us that tv would turn our kids
>into zombies, younger newer-to-unschooling parents were advised that they'd
>be better off to talk less and listen more.

I'm trying to imagine what my kids would do if an older (more
experienced) person said something like this to them.

I don't think they'd like it. I didn't like it when I was
breastfeeding my eldest and an older, more experienced mom told
me that formula wouldn't hurt her, that it wouldn't hurt her to
be left with a babysitter so I could go to my uncle's wedding,
that she needed to learn to separate from me.

They might have been older and more experienced, but I had
access to information that wasn't available to them when their
kids were little. Moreover, their advice felt wrong to me.
Following their advice would have violated my inner wisdom
about what was right for my daughter and myself.

Heather Madrone (heather@...) http://www.madrone.com
I'm so glad there's a day between yesterday and tomorrow.

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/1/02 11:54:58 AM, heather@... writes:

<< They might have been older and more experienced, but I had
access to information that wasn't available to them when their
kids were little. >>

Do new unschoolers have access to information we didn't have when our kids
were little?

YES!

Where did they get it?

In large part, from some of us!

The internet is full of information placed there by volunteer homeschooling
parents.

John Holt's books would probably be long out of print if a whole bunch of
people hadn't asked for copies.

<<I don't think they'd like it. I didn't like it when I was
breastfeeding my eldest and an older, more experienced mom told
me that formula wouldn't hurt her, that it wouldn't hurt her to
be left with a babysitter so I could go to my uncle's wedding,
that she needed to learn to separate from me.>>

But you didn't hear advice like that at La Leche League meetings.'

If you went to a specific place for ideas, you weren't out in the wild whole
world.

We're not asking that 22 year old women listen to all 45 year old women on
the planet. We're asking that they not come to an unschooling group and
belittle the advice of moms who have unschooled for years, whose kids are
older, have jobs, relationships, etc., and tell us that based on their
experience with their toddlers, we're not right.

Sandra

Fetteroll

on 2/1/02 1:41 PM, Heather Madrone at heather@... wrote:

> I'm trying to imagine what my kids would do if an older (more
> experienced) person said something like this to them.

And I think it helps to put the point into the context it was in. It's being
generalized to every interaction between young and old, inexperienced and
experienced.

When a point of argument over philosphy is continuing because someone lacks
personal experience with applying the philosophy, there is a good reason to
suggest they sit back and listen for a while. It's especially true when
someone is insisting that something is necessary and others are saying they
have real life experience not using it and their kids have turned out fine.

Joyce


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/31/2002 3:34:30 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:


> But Pam, What if you are blessed with the status of
> Grandmother?
> Sharon of the Swamp

Doesn't that just make me have MIXED feelings <G>.

First I want to say --- BITE your tongue!!!

Second - I want to say - I CANNOT WAIT!!!

--pam



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/31/2002 3:34:30 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:


> I was defending the principle of
> non-judgemental behavior, listening to all comers and
> valuing everyone's input for what it was, finding
> wisdom when it was offered without judging the source
> for worthiness.

Really? You wouldn't judge whether or not one source was more worthy because
it was more credible than another?

Aha - somehow or another we've managed to come full circle and back to all
the science versus superstition discussion <G>.

--pam


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/31/2002 7:26:20 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:


> once again, it seems
> like the defensiveness on this list runs in hyper mode. i won't give up on
> it
> yet, but it is a bit trying.

Jessica - you're maybe not going to like this, but I'm going to say it
anyway. Slow down, read several times and think more about what someone might
mean. Some people have a more blunt style. It is VERY effective because
people read it (as opposed to my style which is long-winded and lots of times
people only read bits of it). More blunt is also effective because it leaves
room for the reader to do the thinking - doesn't do it all for them. But when
people just read it quickly just react and don't slow down and think about
what the person might mean - they often misread blunt as defensive or rude or
hostile. Try assuming that it is not that and see if you understand things a
bit differently.

--pam


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 2/1/02 11:38 AM, PSoroosh@... at PSoroosh@... wrote:

> Nobody made statement 1 and it just makes your inexperience (in discussions
> of this kind) more and more apparent when you keep arguing as if they did.

But to be fair, even experienced folk can do that. Lots and lots of
arguments end up being because one side is arguing A vs B and the other side
is arguing C vs D and they're both certain they're having the same argument
and wondering why their explanations are falling flat. As an example (rather
than a point to be discussed ;-) it struck me after it died down that the
most recent argument on the unschooling list was one side arguing that a
gentler approach was better than a harsh approach and the other side was
arguing that freedom of expression was better than censorship. There was a
classic discussion on the unschooling message board where there were 3 or
more separate arguments going on and no one had a clue that they weren't all
having the same argument. ;-) It can be hard to see when you're in the
middle of it trying to make your point to people who seem more dense than
you thought possible ;-)

Joyce


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Heather said:
<<I don't think they'd like it. I didn't like it when I was
breastfeeding my eldest and an older, more experienced mom told
me that formula wouldn't hurt her, >>
But were you asking about formula feeding on an email list for Formula
Feeders? If so, why would you not want to know the answers?
Of course you wouldn't like it if someone gave you unsolicited advice on a
topic that you never brought up. That would be understandable. That's not
what I saw happening. This is what I understood to be said.
Newbie:<Fill in the blank> is unschooling.
Old-Timer: Well, in my experience with unschooling, <fill in the blank> does
NOT work as unschooling because <reason here>
Newbie: But <fill in the blank> is dangerous and addictive and causes
cancer, induces hearing loss, yadda yadda yadda. There have been studies!
Old Timer: Well, we long time unschoolers don't see that as true in our
experience. If you are coming here for advice on unschooling, why do you not
want to listen to our answers? We are more experienced than you in this
area. We are older, therefore we have been doing this longer and have more
experience.
Newbie: Are you saying I am young and don't have anything good to say at
all?
Old Timer: No, we are saying in this case we have more experience, we happen
to be older and aren't you here to learn what we have found to be true?
(stage goes dark)
(applause)
One thing I try very hard to remember is that many times, people take
personally something that was not intended to be personal. My old Drill
Sergeant used to say as he was yelling at us for supposed infractions, "If
you think I am refering to you, you better ask your self why. You may just
find something within yourself that is wrong"
Elissa, who will soon be singing
Yippee - Kai - Yay!
-----Original Message-----
From: Heather Madrone <heather@...>
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Date: Friday, February 01, 2002 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: experience


>At 11:38 AM 02/01/2002 -0500, PSoroosh@... wrote:
>>2. Younger newer parents here on this list have the opportunity to learn
from
>>the experience of long-term mindful unschooling parents with older kids.
If
>>the younger newer parents dig in their heels and argue too much, instead
of
>>doing more listening, they'll miss out on good information and advice.
So -
>>in the Monday tv debate - when long-term unschoolers were talking about
how
>>unlimited tv HAD worked in their families, over the years, and people with
2
>>year olds were sending us websites to convince us that tv would turn our
kids
>>into zombies, younger newer-to-unschooling parents were advised that
they'd
>>be better off to talk less and listen more.
>
>I'm trying to imagine what my kids would do if an older (more
>experienced) person said something like this to them.
>
>I don't think they'd like it. I didn't like it when I was
>breastfeeding my eldest and an older, more experienced mom told
>me that formula wouldn't hurt her, that it wouldn't hurt her to
>be left with a babysitter so I could go to my uncle's wedding,
>that she needed to learn to separate from me.
>
>They might have been older and more experienced, but I had
>access to information that wasn't available to them when their
>kids were little. Moreover, their advice felt wrong to me.
>Following their advice would have violated my inner wisdom
>about what was right for my daughter and myself.
>
>Heather Madrone (heather@...) http://www.madrone.com
>I'm so glad there's a day between yesterday and tomorrow.
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>[email protected]
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Heather Madrone

At 03:22 PM 02/01/2002 -0500, ElissaJC@... wrote:
>Of course you wouldn't like it if someone gave you unsolicited advice on a
>topic that you never brought up. That would be understandable.

I sometimes don't even like advice I've asked for. It's not easy
to take advice, even if it's given tactfully.

> That's not
>what I saw happening. This is what I understood to be said.
>Newbie:<Fill in the blank> is unschooling.
>Old-Timer: Well, in my experience with unschooling, <fill in the blank> does
>NOT work as unschooling because <reason here>

Is there really anything that doesn't work with unschooling?

I've found myself in some really strange child-led territory
recently, doing things that I never would have thought went
with unschooling.

>Newbie: But <fill in the blank> is dangerous and addictive and causes
>cancer, induces hearing loss, yadda yadda yadda. There have been studies!
>Old Timer: Well, we long time unschoolers don't see that as true in our
>experience. If you are coming here for advice on unschooling, why do you not
>want to listen to our answers? We are more experienced than you in this
>area. We are older, therefore we have been doing this longer and have more
>experience.

This seems to be shifting the argument from the merits of the case
to an appeal to authority. I'm allergic to argument from authority;
it makes me break out in rebellion.

In my experience, experience doesn't necessarily mean that I have
a lock on truth. Sometimes, I'm wrong as can be, just set in my
ways.

>Newbie: Are you saying I am young and don't have anything good to say at
>all?
>Old Timer: No, we are saying in this case we have more experience, we happen
>to be older and aren't you here to learn what we have found to be true?

Now, see, if someone said that to me, I wouldn't like it. I'd
think they were patronizing me. If I said that to one of my
kids, I'd expect them to set me straight. No, they're not here
to receive my wisdom. They're here to further their own unique
relationship with the universe, to find their own way, to seek
the truth for themselves.

I'm sure not here to adopt anyone else's truths. Nor am I here to
pour my own truths into other people's heads. I'm here to share
the journey with other folks who are on similar paths. Their truths
might not fit me and mine might not fit them.

Heather Madrone (heather@...) http://www.madrone.com
I'm so glad there's a day between yesterday and tomorrow.

Fetteroll

on 2/1/02 3:56 PM, Heather Madrone at heather@... wrote:

> I'm sure not here to adopt anyone else's truths.

No one's asking anyone accept without questiong. Just in those instances
when *experiencing* something will bring enlightenment.

No one expects anyone to accept without question that children will be able
to turn off the TV when TV is not controlled. But it's impossible to discuss
with the mom of a 3 yo who is certain that can't be true.

Joyce


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

>Is there really anything that doesn't work with unschooling?
Yes, school, curriculums, learning to read by age 6, learning multiplication
at 8, having to "know the basics",arbitrarily telling a child that they
*must* do this, can't do that, and so on.
>In my experience, experience doesn't necessarily mean that I have
>a lock on truth. Sometimes, I'm wrong as can be, just set in my
>ways.
***That is true for everyone.
>
They're here to further their own unique
>relationship with the universe, to find their own way, to seek
>the truth for themselves.
***As we all are. And doesn't seeking the truth mean looking for a variety
of answers? You can't expect a variety from just one source. each source has
a different answer. This list is just one source.***
Elissa, who will soon be singing
Yippee - Kai - Yay!

Pam Hartley

----------
From: Heather Madrone <heather@...>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: experience
Date: Fri, Feb 1, 2002, 12:56 PM


Is there really anything that doesn't work with unschooling?

----------



Yes. Schooling.

Pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Karin

Loved your whole dialogue, Elissa! Very true, IMO.
As a newer unschooler who has purposely stayed out of this whole discussion, I've been making a few judgements of my own. It's very easy to do when you just read and are not in the middle of it all. It seems to me that the same discussions are taking place over and over about 20 times. It's like deja vu. I'm afraid that those who are wanting to be heard and taken seriously may have just shot themselves in the foot.

Karin
admittedly wet behind the ears




ElissaJC@... wrote:

Heather said:
<<I don't think they'd like it. I didn't like it when I was
breastfeeding my eldest and an older, more experienced mom told
me that formula wouldn't hurt her, >>
But were you asking about formula feeding on an email list for Formula
Feeders? If so, why would you not want to know the answers?
Of course you wouldn't like it if someone gave you unsolicited advice on a
topic that you never brought up. That would be understandable. That's not
what I saw happening. This is what I understood to be said.
Newbie:<Fill in the blank> is unschooling.
Old-Timer: Well, in my experience with unschooling, <fill in the blank> does
NOT work as unschooling because <reason here>
Newbie: But <fill in the blank> is dangerous and addictive and causes
cancer, induces hearing loss, yadda yadda yadda. There have been studies!
Old Timer: Well, we long time unschoolers don't see that as true in our
experience. If you are coming here for advice on unschooling, why do you not
want to listen to our answers? We are more experienced than you in this
area. We are older, therefore we have been doing this longer and have more
experience.
Newbie: Are you saying I am young and don't have anything good to say at
all?
Old Timer: No, we are saying in this case we have more experience, we happen
to be older and aren't you here to learn what we have found to be true?
(stage goes dark)
(applause)
One thing I try very hard to remember is that many times, people take
personally something that was not intended to be personal. My old Drill
Sergeant used to say as he was yelling at us for supposed infractions, "If
you think I am refering to you, you better ask your self why. You may just
find something within yourself that is wrong"
Elissa, who will soon be singing
Yippee - Kai - Yay!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

On Fri, 01 Feb 2002 12:56:47 -0800 Heather Madrone <heather@...>
writes:
> Is there really anything that doesn't work with unschooling?

Trying to control how, where, when, and what children learn, without
their permission. I think that's what most of these newbie vs. oldie
discussions come down to - Newbie says "I want to unschool but I must
control X, or this terrible thing will happen." Oldtimer replies, "Well,
I don't control X, and nothing terrible has happened, it's been great."
And it's fine up to that point, and some people (like Pat) say, "Wow,
that's really wonderful, I'm so glad to hear that it's worked that way,
now I'm less afraid to try it for myself." Other people, though, seem to
have a great deal of trouble accepting or understanding new ideas about
freedom and control that contradict old ideas, which I think is natural,
to some degree... but often their response is to quickly throw up a
flurry of expert opinion, and/or illogical and/or defensive arguments,
and/or personal attack. I understand why these ideas are threatening and
scary for people, I do, but after a while it just gets wearing and isn't
much fun. Often, the first step in learning something new is to stop
fighting the ideas at the doorstep and just let them come in, and examine
them, and play with them, and then come back and ask real questions based
on that thoughtful knowledge.

> I'm sure not here to adopt anyone else's truths. Nor am I here to
> pour my own truths into other people's heads. I'm here to share
> the journey with other folks who are on similar paths. Their truths
> might not fit me and mine might not fit them.

But do you think there are Universal Unschooling Truths? Sure, there are
things that are different for different people - signing Cacie up for
lots of soccer stuff works great for us, but it won't work well for
everyone, just off the top of my head. Requiring a child to play soccer
doesn't work with unschooling, period.

Dar
________________________________________________________________
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Fetteroll

on 2/1/02 3:56 PM, Heather Madrone at heather@... wrote:

> Is there really anything that doesn't work with unschooling?

Expecting your kids to reach a particular destination or travel a particular
path.

Expecting natural learning to provide you with feedback of a certain order
to reassure you that it's taking place.

Expecting learning to look different than goofing off or playing. Expecting
to be able to continue categorizing things as learning and goofing off and
playing.

Joyce


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sharon Rudd

> >They might have been older and more experienced,
> but I had
> >access to information that wasn't available to them
> when their
> >kids were little.

Ahmmmm. The information that is available to you is
probably available to us old foggies too (except the
dead ones), unless you are referring to the benifit of
our experineces? We, of course, had to exerience, in
order gain experience. And that experience wasn't
available to us until we experienced the experiences,
but you can experience the choice of wether to
expereince or not to expereince similar experiences
after you have been exposed to condenced versions of
our experiences.
..................................................


Moreover, their advice felt
> wrong to me.
> >Following their advice would have violated my inner
> wisdom
> >about what was right for my daughter and myself.
> >
> >Heather Madrone (heather@...)
> http://www.madrone.com


Now that is a valid reason to incorporate advice. HA!
Think what would happen if we followed ALL of the
advice we ever heard! I am gonna think about that for
a while. Some of my Mother's advice comes to mind
first. Shhheeeeeshh!!

Sharon of The Swamp


__________________________________________________
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Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
http://auctions.yahoo.com

Heather Madrone

Thanks for the explanation, Daron. It makes things clearer.
I can see how it would be tiresome to have to keep stating
the obvious time and time again.

I don't think there are any *things* that are inherently outside
of the scope of unschooling. I do think there are a whole
bunch of adult behaviors that are, and a bunch of others that
can be, depending on the situation.

At 02:51 PM 02/01/2002 -0700, freeform@... wrote:
> > I'm sure not here to adopt anyone else's truths. Nor am I here to
> > pour my own truths into other people's heads. I'm here to share
> > the journey with other folks who are on similar paths. Their truths
> > might not fit me and mine might not fit them.
>
>But do you think there are Universal Unschooling Truths?

Yes.

I just don't think that they can be distilled into doctrine.
Every definition of unschooling I've tried doesn't quite fit
the truth of unschooling that I feel in my heart and that I've
experienced in my life.

I've known unschooled children who chose adult-led, structured
learning situations. Do they suddenly stop being unschooled if
they decide to take piano lessons, join a softball team, use a
curriculum, learn to read, memorize the multiplication tables, or
make sure that they've got the basics covered? Do they stop
being unschooled if they go to school by their own choice?
What about college?

The children matter. I want to help them do what they're trying
to do. A lot of these adult-made ideas get in the way of my doing
what they need and want me to do. On several occasions, I've gotten
into the trap of worrying about whether what I was doing fit some
adult's theory rather than whether what I was doing worked for
my children.

>Sure, there are
>things that are different for different people - signing Cacie up for
>lots of soccer stuff works great for us, but it won't work well for
>everyone, just off the top of my head. Requiring a child to play soccer
>doesn't work with unschooling, period.

Why on earth would anyone require a child to play soccer?
[You don't need to answer that. I'm sure someone somewhere
has come up with a line of reasoning as to why children should
be required to play soccer.]

If you define "unschooling" as "child-led," you could argue that
no adult-led soccer program could work with unschooling. And, for
some kids, you'd probably be right.

To me, unschooling is about freedom. It seems contradictory
to declare certain options outside of unschooling. Why should
unschooling limit the possibilities available to children?

In appreciation,
Heather Madrone (heather@...) http://www.madrone.com
Mother of Morganne (10/88), Iris Matisse (11/92),
Malcolm (9/95), and Merlin (6/99)

"Sisters are for hugging, too."
-- Malcolm Madrone, age 6

Pam Hartley

----------
From: Heather Madrone <heather@...>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: experience
Date: Fri, Feb 1, 2002, 2:46 PM


Why on earth would anyone require a child to play soccer?
[You don't need to answer that. I'm sure someone somewhere
has come up with a line of reasoning as to why children should
be required to play soccer.]

----------

"Because I paid for it already, you can't quit, it's wasting money."

"Because if I let you quit this, you'll never learn to stick with things."

"Because you need the exercise."

"Because you need to learn teamwork."

"Because I always wanted to play soccer and didn't get to, so you're going
to."

These are all reasons that real people have really given their children.
These are just the ones I know of. The people in the world who actively try
not to control their children's lives, learning and thoughts are in the
minority.

Pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

<<? We, of course, had to exerience, in
order gain experience. And that experience wasn't
available to us until we experienced the experiences,
but you can experience the choice of wether to
expereince or not to expereince similar experiences
after you have been exposed to condenced versions of
our experiences.>>

Huh?

Elissa, who will soon be singing
Yippee - Kai - Yay!

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/1/02 1:52:16 PM, curtkar@... writes:

<< I'm afraid that those who are wanting to be heard and taken seriously may
have just shot themselves in the foot.
>>

Over and over about twenty times.

I have one young in-real-life friend who moans that same thing, and announced
to me that she didn't need to show any respect for my age or my SCA rank, and
that I would have to earn her respect. Whatever. What would I do with the
respect of a person like that? She took four giant steps backwards in
earning my respect, but that's okay--there are hundreds of people I respect
in person, and she apparently had no interest in being among them. AND, she
said, almost in the same words as were expressed here, it was wrong to judge
someone based on age. And we were young once too.

Yeah, but when I was her age I'd been working in my profession for four
years, and was a regional SCA officer about to become corporate. She had
just finished college and was holding regional office and was telling me I
was a has been and she was the new generation. Bummer for the new generation!

If you watch Alice's Restaurant on DVD, one option is an Arlo Guthrie
commentary through the whole movie. I rented it because Holly has listened
to a sound recording of it fifteen times or so. Not the original, but from a
concert in the mid 1990's, so it has some newer additions. (So she's
memorized one with some different lines!)

Anyway, this is of and for a sub-generation of people who had slogans like
"don't trust anyone over 30," and so forth. That 1960's generation gap was
some serious stuff, with deadly consequences in many cases. But in the
commentary he says that the preparation of the DVD had some problems because
some of the people working on it thought the man playing his dad was really
Woody Guthrie (who was already dead when the movie was made) and that the
character singing the Joni Mitchell song ("Songs for Aging Children") WAS
Joni Mitchell. He said something like, "But they were all like twenty-five
[years old]," and kinda chuckled.

So the point is it's not what you say you know, it's what you do. Instead of
insisting I respect her in advance of her actually doing anything, my real
life friend should really hush up about it, do some things which are worthy
of respect, and let that grow on its own.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/1/02 1:56:52 PM, heather@... writes:

<< Is there really anything that doesn't work with unschooling? >>

Control, lessons, homework, shaming, ignoring, over-scheduling...

Lots of things can cancel out unschooling progress, or can stunt a child's
opening up.

<<This seems to be shifting the argument from the merits of the case
to an appeal to authority. I'm allergic to argument from authority;
it makes me break out in rebellion.>>

Too bad. You'll follow people who haven't earned or been given any
authority, just to avoid "experts." Sounds like in your judgment you'll give
more weight to those who know less.

Sandra

Heather Madrone

At 08:34 PM 02/01/2002 -0500, SandraDodd@... wrote:
<<This seems to be shifting the argument from the merits of the case
>to an appeal to authority. I'm allergic to argument from authority;
>it makes me break out in rebellion.>>
>
>Too bad. You'll follow people who haven't earned or been given any
>authority, just to avoid "experts." Sounds like in your judgment you'll give
>more weight to those who know less.

This looks like sarcasm plus an ad hominem attack, with a little
psychologizing thrown in for good measure.

Heather Madrone (heather@...) http://www.madrone.com
I'm so glad there's a day between yesterday and tomorrow.

Pam Hartley

----------
From: Heather Madrone <heather@...>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: experience
Date: Fri, Feb 1, 2002, 5:56 PM


<<This seems to be shifting the argument from the merits of the case
>to an appeal to authority. I'm allergic to argument from authority;
>it makes me break out in rebellion.>>
>
>Too bad. You'll follow people who haven't earned or been given any
>authority, just to avoid "experts." Sounds like in your judgment you'll give
>more weight to those who know less.

This looks like sarcasm plus an ad hominem attack, with a little
psychologizing thrown in for good measure.

----------


I'd like to politely request a return to the topic of unschooling, and a
cease-fire on critique of posting style.

On Monday, I hoped for an end to this type of post by Friday. Five days is
enough. Let's get back to unschooling. It's 6 p.m. Pacific Time, we can
still make it.

1/4 of Your Mod (Moderating) Squad,

Pam "I-Get-To-Be-Linc-Link?" Hartley



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/1/02 4:25:55 PM, ElissaJC@... writes:

<< <<? We, of course, had to exerience, in
order gain experience. And that experience wasn't
available to us until we experienced the experiences,
but you can experience the choice of wether to
expereince or not to expereince similar experiences
after you have been exposed to condenced versions of
our experiences.>>

<<Huh? >>'

She means we didn't have much to read (I used to wait two months for Growing
Without Schooling to arrive), there weren't many others to talk to, there
were NO webpages, no books on unschooling, just John Holt (who was never a
parent, who never homeschooled anybody) and the rumors that there were other
unschoolers out there.

I was lucky. I knew two unschooling families in person and had read lots of
alternative education stuff in college. I was way ahead of the game and
STILL had to wait two months to read Growing Without Schooling cover to cover.

Someone can read unschooling.com for one day and have more information than
was available ten years ago.

That's what she means.

So younger, newer people are coming here and yawning and saying we're not so
hot, and the reason they know what they know is because of some of the very
people they're being disdainful of.

I believe perhaps that's what was intended.

I could be wrong.

Sandra

[email protected]

<< <<This seems to be shifting the argument from the merits of the case
>to an appeal to authority. I'm allergic to argument from authority;
>it makes me break out in rebellion.>>
>
>Too bad. You'll follow people who haven't earned or been given any
>authority, just to avoid "experts." Sounds like in your judgment you'll
give
>more weight to those who know less.

-=-This looks like sarcasm plus an ad hominem attack, with a little
psychologizing thrown in for good measure. -=-

It was a re-phrasing to show you what you had said, which I was thinking
maybe wasn't what you really meant. "The merits of the case" often have to
do with the credibility of the witnesses.

Sandra

Tia Leschke

>
>Of course you wouldn't like it if someone gave you unsolicited advice on a
>topic that you never brought up. That would be understandable. That's not
>what I saw happening. This is what I understood to be said.
>Newbie:<Fill in the blank> is unschooling.
>Old-Timer: Well, in my experience with unschooling, <fill in the blank> does
>NOT work as unschooling because <reason here>
>Newbie: But <fill in the blank> is dangerous and addictive and causes
>cancer, induces hearing loss, yadda yadda yadda. There have been studies!
>Old Timer: Well, we long time unschoolers don't see that as true in our
>experience. If you are coming here for advice on unschooling, why do you not
>want to listen to our answers? We are more experienced than you in this
>area. We are older, therefore we have been doing this longer and have more
>experience.

*Here* is where the problem started, at least the way I saw it.

>Newbie: Are you saying I am young and don't have anything good to say at
>all?

This was a completely different "newbie" than the one above, and I think
she generalized what Sandra said as applying to anything any younger parent
of younger kids might have to say. And she objected to that.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island