Re: [AlwaysLearning] Digest Number 177
[email protected]
I think that whole issue of calling oneself an "unschooler" before your child
is even of school age is showcases inexperience in some cases. I'm not
talking about any certain person, but just in general.
Because until your child is old enough to attend school how can you UN
school? You could adhere to unschooling philosophies/ child-led
learning/attachment style parenting or whatever....but they aren't
unschooling.
And there is nothing wrong with that, we've all been there. But when you are
taking flak for not putting your child in school, answering concerned
relatives questions, trying to conform to state laws and still adhere to your
unschooling beliefs etc....THAT is where experience plays a huge part.
No one questions why a toddler would be home with you. It's a whole different
ball of wax, YK?
The arguements posed in defense of different experiences/different wisdom
are missing the point! I think that is one of the biggest differences in my
30's...that I EXPECT to understand things deeper and with more experience in
my 40's, 50's and beyond. I also respect the wisdom of many elders I wouldn't
have before. Most people in their 90's have a lot to teach me. Even if their
views don't strictly adhere to mine. Then let's take the people who ARE very
thoughtful, and have similar views. It would be silly to say "oh, they just
have a different experience, my wisdom is equally as valuable". NO, it's not
in every case because (let's use Sandra here since I know she's older than
me) Sandra has lived life as a young mother, as a 35y,o. and an unschooler
and I haven't yet!! So that makes her input more valuable than mine on the
topic of unschooling, yes!
Now if we're talking about being raised in Alaska, I have more experience
although I'm younger.
So your arguement only holds water if we're talking experience in different
topics.
I thought we were discussing unschooling experience and parenting.
It's rather shortsighted to say that it's all equal regardless of age or ages
of children.
Ren
is even of school age is showcases inexperience in some cases. I'm not
talking about any certain person, but just in general.
Because until your child is old enough to attend school how can you UN
school? You could adhere to unschooling philosophies/ child-led
learning/attachment style parenting or whatever....but they aren't
unschooling.
And there is nothing wrong with that, we've all been there. But when you are
taking flak for not putting your child in school, answering concerned
relatives questions, trying to conform to state laws and still adhere to your
unschooling beliefs etc....THAT is where experience plays a huge part.
No one questions why a toddler would be home with you. It's a whole different
ball of wax, YK?
The arguements posed in defense of different experiences/different wisdom
are missing the point! I think that is one of the biggest differences in my
30's...that I EXPECT to understand things deeper and with more experience in
my 40's, 50's and beyond. I also respect the wisdom of many elders I wouldn't
have before. Most people in their 90's have a lot to teach me. Even if their
views don't strictly adhere to mine. Then let's take the people who ARE very
thoughtful, and have similar views. It would be silly to say "oh, they just
have a different experience, my wisdom is equally as valuable". NO, it's not
in every case because (let's use Sandra here since I know she's older than
me) Sandra has lived life as a young mother, as a 35y,o. and an unschooler
and I haven't yet!! So that makes her input more valuable than mine on the
topic of unschooling, yes!
Now if we're talking about being raised in Alaska, I have more experience
although I'm younger.
So your arguement only holds water if we're talking experience in different
topics.
I thought we were discussing unschooling experience and parenting.
It's rather shortsighted to say that it's all equal regardless of age or ages
of children.
Ren
Earth Witch
> Because until your child is old enough to attendSo as long as they term it child-led learning it is
> school how can you UN
> school? You could adhere to unschooling
> philosophies/ child-led
> learning/attachment style parenting or
> whatever....but they aren't
> unschooling.
okay? Even if most lists and groups that follow that
philosophy call it unschooling? Isn't that just
playing around with semantics?
> No one questions why a toddler would be home withActually, people here do. I have been asked countless
> you. It's a whole different
> ball of wax, YK?
times when and then why my boys are not in preschool,
and now kindergarten. Come to think of it, I have
been asked questions about it since they were born.
> So your arguement only holds water if we're talkingparenting, even under a child-led learning philosophy,
> experience in different
> topics.
> I thought we were discussing unschooling experience
> and parenting.
can be completely different for people. There are so
many factors, child's sex, closeness in age to
siblings, only child,.....If some one has raised an
only child for 15 years that is a girl, they will have
a different parenting experience than some one who has
raised 6 boys spanning the last 25 years. Their
experiences as parents have been very different, even
if they were unschooling the whole time. What would I
judge their wisdom on? The number of years? The
amount of children? Or, better yet, how about I
listen to them regardless of those things and see if
they have anything to offer that I find useful?
How does that not hold water?
> It's rather shortsighted to say that it's all equalI did not say it was all equal. My point was, and is,
> regardless of age or ages
> of children.
> Ren
>
and seems to have been missed and equated to mean
other things, that experience does not equal wisdom.
That youngness does not equal niaveness. That
prejudging based on those things can cause a person to
miss out on something important the person they are
judging has to offer.
Kitrina
__________________________________________________
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Pam Hartley
----------
From: Earth Witch <the_earth_witch@...>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Digest Number 177
Date: Thu, Jan 31, 2002, 1:29 PM
I did not say it was all equal. My point was, and is,
and seems to have been missed and equated to mean
other things, that experience does not equal wisdom.
That youngness does not equal niaveness. That
prejudging based on those things can cause a person to
miss out on something important the person they are
judging has to offer.
----------
Experience does not (necessarily) equal wisdom.
Youth does not (necessarily) equal naivete.
Passion and theory also do not equal experience.
There is, simply, no shortcut to experience. There is no substitute for it.
I can be the smartest person in the room, the most well-read, the most
thoughtful. I can't be the most experienced in every aspect of life,
unschooling or otherwise.
I am doing some research (casual, for my own enjoyment) about Navy SEALs. I
am learning things about them from a variety of sources. One of those
sources is an ex-SEAL. There is no way, no matter how much I study and how
many facts I can produce, that I can get his kind of experience. If someone
wanted to know about BUD/S, and he and I and an Admiral who had not been a
SEAL were all in the same room, Admiral So-and-So and I could, with probably
varying degrees of expertise, tell the person that BUD/S means Basic
Underwater Demolition/Swimming and is the training course that wannabe SEALs
go through, and what it entails.
Only the SEAL could tell them what it felt like to be on day 7 of Hell Week
with four total hours of sleep for the week under his belt, soaking wet for
the 7th day running, with most of his class having quit already. Only he
would know what it was really like to really live through that. Only he
would know and might be able to communicate what it was in him that brought
him through, and what he learned from it at the time.
If I am talking to a dog trainer who has trained only one Golden Retriever
thus far in her career, and she is about to train her first Pit Bull, she
will be able to tell me, from her reading and her observation, some things
that she has learned about training dogs in general and maybe some things
she's read or observed others doing with Pit Bulls in particular.
If she and I were standing in a room of dog owners and she knew that for the
past five years I had worked with an animal rescue group specializing in Pit
Bull rescue and rehabilitation, who would it make the most sense for a new
Pit Bull owner to listen to?
The reason that things like support groups and this list and Le Leche League
and classes and training courses and conversations with mentors exist are
because there is no substitute for experience and living through specific
stages of life.
I've been through my 20s. I've argued, passionately and with full sincerity,
what you're arguing. And I didn't believe my 30s would make any difference,
either. So I know none of this helps you now, but later, when you're feeling
different and might not quite know why, it might help you. It did me, and I
was grateful for the annoying people who had warned me of what was to come.
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: Earth Witch <the_earth_witch@...>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Digest Number 177
Date: Thu, Jan 31, 2002, 1:29 PM
I did not say it was all equal. My point was, and is,
and seems to have been missed and equated to mean
other things, that experience does not equal wisdom.
That youngness does not equal niaveness. That
prejudging based on those things can cause a person to
miss out on something important the person they are
judging has to offer.
----------
Experience does not (necessarily) equal wisdom.
Youth does not (necessarily) equal naivete.
Passion and theory also do not equal experience.
There is, simply, no shortcut to experience. There is no substitute for it.
I can be the smartest person in the room, the most well-read, the most
thoughtful. I can't be the most experienced in every aspect of life,
unschooling or otherwise.
I am doing some research (casual, for my own enjoyment) about Navy SEALs. I
am learning things about them from a variety of sources. One of those
sources is an ex-SEAL. There is no way, no matter how much I study and how
many facts I can produce, that I can get his kind of experience. If someone
wanted to know about BUD/S, and he and I and an Admiral who had not been a
SEAL were all in the same room, Admiral So-and-So and I could, with probably
varying degrees of expertise, tell the person that BUD/S means Basic
Underwater Demolition/Swimming and is the training course that wannabe SEALs
go through, and what it entails.
Only the SEAL could tell them what it felt like to be on day 7 of Hell Week
with four total hours of sleep for the week under his belt, soaking wet for
the 7th day running, with most of his class having quit already. Only he
would know what it was really like to really live through that. Only he
would know and might be able to communicate what it was in him that brought
him through, and what he learned from it at the time.
If I am talking to a dog trainer who has trained only one Golden Retriever
thus far in her career, and she is about to train her first Pit Bull, she
will be able to tell me, from her reading and her observation, some things
that she has learned about training dogs in general and maybe some things
she's read or observed others doing with Pit Bulls in particular.
If she and I were standing in a room of dog owners and she knew that for the
past five years I had worked with an animal rescue group specializing in Pit
Bull rescue and rehabilitation, who would it make the most sense for a new
Pit Bull owner to listen to?
The reason that things like support groups and this list and Le Leche League
and classes and training courses and conversations with mentors exist are
because there is no substitute for experience and living through specific
stages of life.
I've been through my 20s. I've argued, passionately and with full sincerity,
what you're arguing. And I didn't believe my 30s would make any difference,
either. So I know none of this helps you now, but later, when you're feeling
different and might not quite know why, it might help you. It did me, and I
was grateful for the annoying people who had warned me of what was to come.
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/31/02 2:32:32 PM, the_earth_witch@... writes:
<< So as long as they term it child-led learning it is
okay? Even if most lists and groups that follow that
philosophy call it unschooling? Isn't that just
playing around with semantics? >>
It's examining ideas and beliefs.
It's not "playing around," it's live, and real.
<<Or, better yet, how about I
listen to them regardless of those things and see if
they have anything to offer that I find useful?>>
You yourself have spoken of one thing repeatedly. So far it's not very
useful.
Talk to us about how your children learn. Let's talk about unschooling, as
the rest of us were doing before the Monday-storm.
<< My point was, and is,
and seems to have been missed and equated to mean
other things, that experience does not equal wisdom. >>
You've made that point over a dozen times now. We all understand you
completely. You can rest now.
Sandra
<< So as long as they term it child-led learning it is
okay? Even if most lists and groups that follow that
philosophy call it unschooling? Isn't that just
playing around with semantics? >>
It's examining ideas and beliefs.
It's not "playing around," it's live, and real.
<<Or, better yet, how about I
listen to them regardless of those things and see if
they have anything to offer that I find useful?>>
You yourself have spoken of one thing repeatedly. So far it's not very
useful.
Talk to us about how your children learn. Let's talk about unschooling, as
the rest of us were doing before the Monday-storm.
<< My point was, and is,
and seems to have been missed and equated to mean
other things, that experience does not equal wisdom. >>
You've made that point over a dozen times now. We all understand you
completely. You can rest now.
Sandra
Earth Witch
--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
examining beliefs or ideas.
discussions have been varied and not always about
unschooling. If you want this dropped, however, I
will respect that and drop it. I am not here to cause
problems, but to learn and discuss.
rephrasing what I said and have it come out with a
different meaning. I wanted to clarify because some
responses appeared not to understand what I meant and
some even asked.
I am truly sorry if my posts have bothered you in some
way.
Peace.
Kitrina
__________________________________________________
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Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
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>In the context of the post I responded to, it was not
> In a message dated 1/31/02 2:32:32 PM,
> the_earth_witch@... writes:
>
> << So as long as they term it child-led learning it
> is
> okay? Even if most lists and groups that follow
> that
> philosophy call it unschooling? Isn't that just
> playing around with semantics? >>
>
> It's examining ideas and beliefs.
> It's not "playing around," it's live, and real.
examining beliefs or ideas.
>Thanks for your opinion.
> <<Or, better yet, how about I
> listen to them regardless of those things and see if
> they have anything to offer that I find useful?>>
>
> You yourself have spoken of one thing repeatedly.
> So far it's not very
> useful.
>
> Talk to us about how your children learn. Let'sI have been on the list for a little while, the
> talk about unschooling, as
> the rest of us were doing before the Monday-storm.
discussions have been varied and not always about
unschooling. If you want this dropped, however, I
will respect that and drop it. I am not here to cause
problems, but to learn and discuss.
>If 'all' understood me completely they would not be
> << My point was, and is,
> and seems to have been missed and equated to mean
> other things, that experience does not equal wisdom.
> >>
>
> You've made that point over a dozen times now. We
> all understand you
> completely. You can rest now.
>
> Sandra
>
rephrasing what I said and have it come out with a
different meaning. I wanted to clarify because some
responses appeared not to understand what I meant and
some even asked.
I am truly sorry if my posts have bothered you in some
way.
Peace.
Kitrina
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
http://auctions.yahoo.com
[email protected]
On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 13:29:37 -0800 (PST) Earth Witch
<the_earth_witch@...> writes:
have any children yet?
If not, then I think it's fair to say that you're not "unschooling" until
you have school-age children... although I think it's really cool that
people whose kids aren't yet "school age" hang out here and at the park
days and all that.
I do know an awful lot of "homeschoolers" who sent their kids to school
starting in kindie or first, though. Not saying you'll be one of them,
but somehow it seems much easier to say you're a an unschooler or
homeschooler with a 3 yr old.
Dar, in my early thirties with a 9 yr old...
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<the_earth_witch@...> writes:
> So as long as they term it child-led learning it isWell, could you say that you practiced "child led learning" if you didn't
> okay? Even if most lists and groups that follow that
> philosophy call it unschooling? Isn't that just
> playing around with semantics?
have any children yet?
If not, then I think it's fair to say that you're not "unschooling" until
you have school-age children... although I think it's really cool that
people whose kids aren't yet "school age" hang out here and at the park
days and all that.
I do know an awful lot of "homeschoolers" who sent their kids to school
starting in kindie or first, though. Not saying you'll be one of them,
but somehow it seems much easier to say you're a an unschooler or
homeschooler with a 3 yr old.
Dar, in my early thirties with a 9 yr old...
________________________________________________________________
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Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
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Tia Leschke
> > Because until your child is old enough to attendI'm not so sure I agree with this. My daughter's neighbour was over when I
> > school how can you UN
> > school? You could adhere to unschooling
> > philosophies/ child-led
> > learning/attachment style parenting or
> > whatever....but they aren't
> > unschooling.
was visiting yesterday. She was delighted to tell my daughter that her
daughter was learning her alphabet. This little girl, who is about 17
months old is being taught to repeat the letters after her mother. She
hasn't got a clue what it all means, but her mother thinks she's learning
her alphabet. My grandson, at just about 16 months, isn't the least bit
interested in the alphabet, though he's crazy about books. If he asked
Heather what the letters were, she'd happily tell him. Otherwise, it just
isn't an issue. Now I know that lots of people who end up sending their
kids to school would have the same attitude when their kids are that
little, but isn't my daughter unschooling Kaelin? Does it make a
difference that she's also unschooling Skye, age 7? I've always told
people who were worried that they wouldn't be able to do a good job of
homeschooling that they've been doing it since their child was born. I
think that if they've also been letting their child make any educational
decisions during those "preschool" years, then they've been unschooling
since birth. Obviously they aren't experienced unschoolers in the sense
that people with older kids are, but I don't agree that they aren't
unschooling.
>I did not say it was all equal. My point was, and is,I have to agree with this. Too bad you probably don't live anywhere near
>and seems to have been missed and equated to mean
>other things, that experience does not equal wisdom.
>That youngness does not equal niaveness. That
>prejudging based on those things can cause a person to
>miss out on something important the person they are
>judging has to offer.
us, Kitrina. You and my daughter would probably get along well.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Cindy
starsuncloud@... wrote:
I live. I know someone who has her 2 year old in a 2 day a week program
so she can have some time to herself - after all she's worked since she
was 16 and needs a break. I felt like asking her why she had to have a
child, if he was just an excuse to take a break. But she's very active
in my local SCA group so if I don't want to be shunned, I must bite my
tongue. Rather than have such a scarred tongue, I don't go to small
local events!
I'm considered the wierd one since I don't use babysitters and am at
home with my preschooler and my school-age daughter. And worst of all
I like it that way!!
--
Cindy Ferguson
crma@...
>Actually a preschooler who doesn't attend preschool is quite rare where
> No one questions why a toddler would be home with you. It's a whole different
> ball of wax, YK?
>
I live. I know someone who has her 2 year old in a 2 day a week program
so she can have some time to herself - after all she's worked since she
was 16 and needs a break. I felt like asking her why she had to have a
child, if he was just an excuse to take a break. But she's very active
in my local SCA group so if I don't want to be shunned, I must bite my
tongue. Rather than have such a scarred tongue, I don't go to small
local events!
I'm considered the wierd one since I don't use babysitters and am at
home with my preschooler and my school-age daughter. And worst of all
I like it that way!!
--
Cindy Ferguson
crma@...
Jessica Kelly
we're in the same boat -- we haven't found it to be a different ball of wax
either. aside from other homeschoolers, most folks in this area have their kids in
preschool at age 2, and quite a few folks put infants as young as a couple months
into daycare -- and when our son was younger, we we're constantly asked what
daycare he was in, or, around age 2, what "school" he was attending. he's a tall
kid, and it seems like since he was about 3 1/2 every time we went shopping during
the week someone would say, "oh, and why aren't you in school today?" he used to
say he was "too young for school," but now he just smiles and says, "we're always
in school -- we homeschool."
nice to hear someone else enjoys being home with their kids! we're right there
with ya... :^)
Cindy wrote:
Jessica Kelly
W o r d U p
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"There would be no greater joy than to see a beautiful park
that our children and adults can go to and learn about the
oil and gas industry."
- Tony Sanchez, former Texas Parks & Wildlife Commissioner
[it's all about oil...]
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
either. aside from other homeschoolers, most folks in this area have their kids in
preschool at age 2, and quite a few folks put infants as young as a couple months
into daycare -- and when our son was younger, we we're constantly asked what
daycare he was in, or, around age 2, what "school" he was attending. he's a tall
kid, and it seems like since he was about 3 1/2 every time we went shopping during
the week someone would say, "oh, and why aren't you in school today?" he used to
say he was "too young for school," but now he just smiles and says, "we're always
in school -- we homeschool."
nice to hear someone else enjoys being home with their kids! we're right there
with ya... :^)
Cindy wrote:
> starsuncloud@... wrote:--
> >
> > No one questions why a toddler would be home with you. It's a whole different
> > ball of wax, YK?
> >
> Actually a preschooler who doesn't attend preschool is quite rare where
> I live. I know someone who has her 2 year old in a 2 day a week program
> so she can have some time to herself - after all she's worked since she
> was 16 and needs a break. I felt like asking her why she had to have a
> child, if he was just an excuse to take a break. But she's very active
> in my local SCA group so if I don't want to be shunned, I must bite my
> tongue. Rather than have such a scarred tongue, I don't go to small
> local events!
>
> I'm considered the wierd one since I don't use babysitters and am at
> home with my preschooler and my school-age daughter. And worst of all
> I like it that way!!
>
> --
>
> Cindy Ferguson
> crma@...
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Jessica Kelly
W o r d U p
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"There would be no greater joy than to see a beautiful park
that our children and adults can go to and learn about the
oil and gas industry."
- Tony Sanchez, former Texas Parks & Wildlife Commissioner
[it's all about oil...]
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~