carnationsgalore

My ex-husband's wife is a special education teacher in the public
school system. She has given me some very helpful information in
the past about my son Jeffrey. He is almost 12 years old and has
been diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome. I usually ignore the
schoolish advice she gives me but she said something recently that
absolutely flabbergasted me. If my son was going to public school,
he'd be entering 7th grade in August. She flat out told me that I
needed to make a serious decision about his education because of his
age. If I want him to be successful in life, I need to get him into
school where a team of professionals can help him learn how to
function in the real world with his disability. She actually
said, "If you don't want him living in your basement for the rest of
his life, totally dependent on you, you need to get him in school."

I told her that his education was taking place in the real world but
she went on and on about how he NEEDS to learn how to function in a
classroom because his future depended on it. Thank goodness I
needed to leave and was spared further discussion. However, that
comment bothered me more than I first realized because it sits in
the back of my mind. As a special needs person, is there really
something a team of professionals can do to make my son's life go
more smoothly? I've been flying by the seat of my britches dealing
with his Aspergers. Our doctors (Kaiser Permanente) have been no
help and I don't know where else to look for help. I can't believe
her one comment has really shaken me up so much.

Beth M.

Stacey

it all goes back to that 'one size fits all' theory. my mother works
at an elementary school (secretary) but i've met teachers that are
the same too. the idea is, 'well, i have a degree, so i 'must' know
what i'm talking about'. my mom doesn't even have a degree..she
can't shut up about it either!! i'm bordering on unschool/homeschool
w/curriculum. (depends on subject) yet i still get the 'the child
needs to be in a classroom!' why? even if i 'am' teaching them
(math/reading per hubby's request, they guide themselves on science
and history, compromis;) the same stuff, why do they need to be in
a classroom with little to no one-on-one attention???
people seem to think, as parents, we don't know what's best for our
child. we don't immediately have a 'degree' with the baby as it is
rushed out of our system. so, why would we know???? truth be told,
we are the ones that know our child best. we can identify behaviors,
know exactly what they want, recognize all the little signs that they
show and immediatly know how to make them happy/take care of them.
would throwing them out into the so-called 'real-world' with
a 'professional' that has never met your child, nor recognize any of
their behavior be better?
i sincerely doubt it.
you know your son. you know what he wants out of life (well, i'm
assumming he's shared it with you;) but you know how to get him
there because you know 'him'. not every child has the same path,
every child is different. they are not the same as the ps
wants/insist them to be. it bothers me to when people say stuff like
that. i think it's their arrogance that bothers me the most!! if you
don't know what you're talking about-keep your mouth shut!! sounds
harsh, doesn't it;) i've been doing this for some 3 years now...you
(or maybe it's just me) tend to get fed up after a while... my kids
have 'so many' other qualities to discuss...why are you focusing on
this????
stacey:)
>
> My ex-husband's wife is a special education teacher in the public
> school system. She has given me some very helpful information in
> the past about my son Jeffrey. He is almost 12 years old and has
> been diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome. I usually ignore the
> schoolish advice she gives me but she said something recently that
> absolutely flabbergasted me. If my son was going to public school,
> he'd be entering 7th grade in August. She flat out told me that I
> needed to make a serious decision about his education because of
his
> age. If I want him to be successful in life, I need to get him
into
> school where a team of professionals can help him learn how to
> function in the real world with his disability. She actually
> said, "If you don't want him living in your basement for the rest
of
> his life, totally dependent on you, you need to get him in
school."
>
> I told her that his education was taking place in the real world
but
> she went on and on about how he NEEDS to learn how to function in a
> classroom because his future depended on it. Thank goodness I
> needed to leave and was spared further discussion. However, that
> comment bothered me more than I first realized because it sits in
> the back of my mind. As a special needs person, is there really
> something a team of professionals can do to make my son's life go
> more smoothly? I've been flying by the seat of my britches dealing
> with his Aspergers. Our doctors (Kaiser Permanente) have been no
> help and I don't know where else to look for help. I can't believe
> her one comment has really shaken me up so much.
>
> Beth M.
>

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jul 1, 2008, at 8:40 AM, carnationsgalore wrote:

> but
> she went on and on about how he NEEDS to learn how to function in a
> classroom because his future depended on it.

How does she know that?

She may be absolutely convinced she's right, but she's only guessing.
There isn't a way for her to know since neither she nor anyone she's
learned what she knows from has ever met a mindfully parented
unschooled child with Aspergers. She has *zero* knowledge of the
effects of supporting a child with specially needs who is growing up
outside of school.

Better to listen to people who have had first hand experience, isn't it?

Joyce

donnakeeble

She actually
> said, "If you don't want him living in your basement for the rest of
> his life, totally dependent on you, you need to get him in school."
>
> I told her that his education was taking place in the real world but
> she went on and on about how he NEEDS to learn how to function in a
> classroom because his future depended on it. Thank goodness I
> needed to leave and was spared further discussion. However, that
> comment bothered me more than I first realized because it sits in
> the back of my mind. As a special needs person, is there really
> something a team of professionals can do to make my son's life go
> more smoothly? I've been flying by the seat of my britches dealing
> with his Aspergers. Our doctors (Kaiser Permanente) have been no
> help and I don't know where else to look for help. I can't believe
> her one comment has really shaken me up so much.
>
> Beth M.
>


My brother lived in my parent's basement for nearly three years with
his wife and two children while he went to law school. That's what
parents are for isn't it - supporting their children when they are
needed?!?!

You can shop around for "professionals" to help your child but no
matter their expertise they will never have the time, knowledge, or
investment in your child that you do. My son has a wonderful teacher
from his public school days that is still a friend of his - he sends
postcards from vacation, visits with her at the library, and values
her as a person. He has the same type of relationships with
homeschoolers, librarians, and family. (There's more than one way to
skin a cat...)

You are probably shaken up because you have concerns about his future
- I think most parents have moments of worry about their children's
futures. If a parent defines a child as a special needs person, their
expectations can be influenced accordingly. On the other hand, her
extreme viewpoint hardly lends itself to discussion or consideration -
believe it or not she probably has his best interests at heart...

Since we do not have a basement, we need to work extra hard at this
parenting stuff!!!!!! <bwg>
Donna

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jul 1, 2008, at 10:09 AM, Stacey wrote:

> people seem to think, as parents, we don't know what's best for our
> child.

Lots of parents think they do but they don't.

One quick check: is the parents' primary goal a happy family?

> truth be told,
> we are the ones that know our child best.

Actually it's the children who know themselves best! :-)

Our goal is to figure out how to listen and interpret what they want.
Our goal is to help them find ways to get what they want is safe and
respectful ways.

*Most* parents have the goal of children who listen to them.

> we can identify behaviors,
> know exactly what they want, recognize all the little signs that they
> show and immediatly know how to make them happy/take care of them.

I doubt most parents do know that. Most kids don't know either ;-)

But we can keep trying to help them with the goal of a happy child in
mind rather than a child that's molded to some ideal.

> i'm bordering on unschool/homeschool
> w/curriculum. (depends on subject) yet i still get the 'the child
> needs to be in a classroom!' why? even if i 'am' teaching them
> (math/reading per hubby's request, they guide themselves on science
> and history, compromis;)
>

It's really helpful for unschooling to not think in terms of
teaching. It's also very helpful to not divide the world into subjects.

An unschooler doesn't do curriculum for math. Though they may add
some kind of more formal math or whatever to their lives to help a
husband transition. But to help move towards unschooling, it's not a
good idea to see the curriculum as fulfilling any math learning at
all. Math learning will come from living life.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

-=-She actually
said, "If you don't want him living in your basement for the rest of
his life, totally dependent on you, you need to get him in school."

I told her that his education was taking place in the real world but
she went on and on about how he NEEDS to learn how to function in a
classroom because his future depended on it.-=-



Ask her to put it in writing. Tell her you'll think about it. When
he's older and doing really well and not scarred like the Asperger's
kids who went through school labelled and shunned, show it to her
again. Maybe it will keep her from giving similar bad advice to
others after that.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

She flat out told me that I
> needed to make a serious decision about his education because of his
> age. If I want him to be successful in life, I need to get him into
> school where a team of professionals can help him learn how to
> function in the real world with his disability. She actually
> said, "If you don't want him living in your basement for the rest of
> his life, totally dependent on you, you need to get him in school."


I've seen over and over again how truly devastating school is for kids
with aspergers. Kids NEED all those experts because the school system
is so wrong for them, it's a counter balance way of helping a kid that
truly shouldn't be there. Just for the record, I don't think aspergers
is a disability. Depending on what traits your child has, they are more
or less intense then in someone with extreme aspergers.

If you can recognize that your child has aspergers, see how it effects
him, and then help let go of the label and see him for who he is, you
can move away from having a child with a disability, one that needs to
be fixed to having a child that needs extra support and help in this or
that area.

As a special needs person, is there really
> something a team of professionals can do to make my son's life go
> more smoothly? I've been flying by the seat of my britches dealing
> with his Aspergers. Our doctors (Kaiser Permanente) have been no
> help and I don't know where else to look for help.

I think there is so little known about aspergers that there such a thing
as a team of experts is almost laughable. The term aspergers was just
getting out there about 10 or so years ago, before that it was called
something else. How can experts suddenly arise in 10 or so years in so
great a quantity as to be able to plant them in every school for every
kid diagnosed with aspergers? Doctors won't be any help because they
are inundated with the same.

Aspergers has become a catch all for any kid that doesn't quite fit in
to the school mold. Shouldn't we be really more concerned about the
school mold that is causing so much damage to our kids? I say, trust
your instincts, the school experts don't know much about homeschooling
or unschooling and can only see ways of helping a kid like yours stretch
and mold to just kind of match the school mold enough to say, "look see,
he fits and we did that!". As if that's something to be proud of!?

Dianna Glick

I volunteered in a special ed class of kids with Aspergers and Autism for one year several years ago. There was a 'team of professionals' working with these kids. This was an award winning school district that had lots of money and highly paid professionals. I won't go into specifics, but I will tell you that if school is no place for kids who are not 'diagnosed' with some sort of disability, it is certainly no place for a child that is. The treatment was inhumane. The kids were afraid, they were screamed at, they were shamed, they were made fun of by the kids not in the class. After a year of this so called professional training, I did not see one child become better at anything in any way.

I didn't know about unschooling then and I had never looked into homeschooling but my gut told me that these kids should somehow be at home. They needed to nurtured and loved and cared for, not trained like animals. Ultimately, isn't this why we all make the decision to keep our kids at home?

If you really feel you might be missing something by not sending your son to school, go and check it out yourself. Sit in on one of those 'special ed' classes and see what he is missing, then you will know for sure if you are making the choice that most reflects your ideas about how your son should learn.

Dianna
thehomeopathicway.blogspot.com

Nancy Wooton

On Jul 1, 2008, at 10:35 AM, Jenny C wrote:

> I've seen over and over again how truly devastating school is for kids
> with aspergers.


I've been working or volunteering with therapeutic horseback riding
programs for seven years, often with kids diagnosed with Asperger's.
One boy stands out in memory: the first time I met him, he was
animatedly discussing black holes, the nature of time and the
universe, and then gave a detailed history of Quidditch ;-) He made
Christmas cards for us, featuring a picture of himself taken at the
program. The first read:

Seasons Greetings!
Dear horseback riding teachers:
I love your lessens because I love horses and I love you. I really
enjoy my time with you and the horses. I think that you guys are the
best friends a guy could ever have. I believe you are the best
teachers who taught me horseback riding. I wish you a Merry Christmas.
Love, Danny

The next year's broke my heart; it was clear a teacher had gotten to
him :-P

Dear (name of program),
I love riding the horses with you. I loved going to the horse shows
this year. I will love riding horses all the time.
Have a Merry Christmas,
Love, Danny Pacho

There was another boy who attended the same school as Danny, who'd
come on weekdays after school. Often, he'd be very upset by something
that had happened that day, and not always because of the bullies
Danny saved him from. Most of the time, it was just school itself
that broke him down. We'd try to make the lesson as fun and relaxing
as possible, using positive feedback rather than corrections. We
realized riding might be the only break these kids got all week.

Nancy

Gold Standard

>> When
>>he's older and doing really well and not scarred like the Asperger's
>>kids who went through school labelled and shunned,<<

And if she (or op) would like to speak with an unschooling family with a 19
yo who would be considered "Asperger's" if he was in school, feel free to
contact me.

He isn't in our basement, but he is still living with us, and I couldn't be
happier about that. He is a VERY cool person...I can't express in a short
post his contributions to his family and his world. Some struggles...yes.
But nothing like there would be if he was forced into a school system and
with "professionals". We did a little exploration of "professional"
help...scary, scary stuff.

Freedom and support obviously helps all people live and learn as themselves
in peace. People who don't necessarily fit a mold in our society are even
more blessed by this freedom. The gifts they are able to share in return
aren't seen so much when they are put in the box. Sometimes not at all.

There is nothing wrong with my son or the op's son. There is lots right with
them. That won't be seen in a typical school setting.

>>Maybe it will keep her from giving similar bad advice to
>>others after that.<<

And that is bad, bad advice. I have a saved human to show for it.

Jacki

carnationsgalore

> Kids NEED all those experts because the school system is so wrong
> for them, it's a counter balance way of helping a kid that
> truly shouldn't be there.

That is a very good point!

> Aspergers has become a catch all for any kid that doesn't quite
> fit in to the school mold.

I know labels can be a problem sometimes and that misdiagnoses have
happened, but I do believe Aspergers and other diagnoses on the
spectrum are disabilities. My son has autistic traits that keep him
from doing a lot of things, not just schoolish things. In fact, this
is why my DH has a difficult time thinking unschooling is right for
our son. I've thought about posting on the list about this but
everytime I try to write, it sounds like a negative post filled with
the things my son won't or can't do. He is who he is. :)

Beth M.

Sandra Dodd

-=-. The kids were afraid, they were screamed at, they were shamed,
they were made fun of by the kids not in the class.-=-

And probably by the kids IN the class, too.

-=-. Sit in on one of those 'special ed' classes and see what he is
missing-=-

And don't forget the importance of the fact that he is NOT sitting in
(nor diagnosed) "special ed."

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-The term aspergers was just
getting out there about 10 or so years ago, before that it was called
something else. -=-

Perhaps "awkward" or "dorky" or "kind of autistic," but the
statistics on "autism spectrum" conditions are being looked at in
relation to vaccinations. This isn't a good list for that
discussion, but you could go and look up those articles pretty
easily. What is called "Asperger's" is widespread and school isn't
going to and can't help it.



I've seen three boys who clearly would be (two were already) named
"Asperger's," who were unschooled and by the time they were teens
they were WAY, way calm and good and better than they could possibly
have been had they been in school, being told they were weird and
being bullied. They were able to figure out ways to deal with social
situations, and ways to grow up strong and aware of their strengths
and limitations.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jeweltoo2002

--- In [email protected], "carnationsgalore"
<addled.homemaker@...> wrote:

> I told her that his education was taking place in the real world but
> she went on and on about how he NEEDS to learn how to function in a
> classroom because his future depended on it. Thank goodness I
> needed to leave and was spared further discussion. However, that
> comment bothered me more than I first realized because it sits in
> the back of my mind. As a special needs person, is there really
> something a team of professionals can do to make my son's life go
> more smoothly?

Hi Beth, my ds14 has mild Aspergers. Dh thought he should go to public
school - to get him into the "real world" and so he wouldn't be a
"mummy's boy," the mental health supervisor recommended the same. He
had attended a Steiner school for his first few schooling years.

My dd18 went to public school for her high-school years and was
shocked at how the kids treated each other, she was bullied alot too.
She was adamant that her brother shouldn't go to school as she
recognised similar aspie traits in a class-mate who was bullied
relentlessly. Did I really want this for my child? The school actually
contacted me about enrolling him & that they would supply a helper in
some of his classes (depending on their funding)

I do want my son to be able to survive "out there" but I don't think
that school is a healthy environment for anyone, let alone a kid that
is a bit "different."

At present I am home-schooling ds14, ds11 & dd7. Un-schooling with a
Steiner twist.

Also just an "aside" - we went gluten-free a few years ago, this seems
to have helped ds, the main thing I noticed was far less aggression
(also my 2 dyslexic children "woke up" academically very noticably).

Jewel

Stacey

maybe i was being too general in my post (i work nights and hadn't
gotten any sleep;) i was generalizing about 'who understands the
children-teacher vs. parents. i know what's best-i'm keeping them
home!! (kids don't have that say)

you're right on the math. (and i am sure you feel like that about
language arts, also;) i'm on the unschooling fence. i'm hanging
onto one end, my husband won't let me jump over;) so
it's 'compromise'-or nothing. i control 2 subjects (or, actually
kids do;) and he has say in the ones 'he' feels are important.
either that, or ps. i went for the compromise!;)
stacey:)
>
>
> On Jul 1, 2008, at 10:09 AM, Stacey wrote:
>
> > people seem to think, as parents, we don't know what's best for
our
> > child.
>
> Lots of parents think they do but they don't.
>
> One quick check: is the parents' primary goal a happy family?
>
> > truth be told,
> > we are the ones that know our child best.
>
> Actually it's the children who know themselves best! :-)
>
> Our goal is to figure out how to listen and interpret what they
want.
> Our goal is to help them find ways to get what they want is safe
and
> respectful ways.
>
> *Most* parents have the goal of children who listen to them.
>
> > we can identify behaviors,
> > know exactly what they want, recognize all the little signs that
they
> > show and immediatly know how to make them happy/take care of them.
>
> I doubt most parents do know that. Most kids don't know either ;-)
>
> But we can keep trying to help them with the goal of a happy child
in
> mind rather than a child that's molded to some ideal.
>
> > i'm bordering on unschool/homeschool
> > w/curriculum. (depends on subject) yet i still get the 'the child
> > needs to be in a classroom!' why? even if i 'am' teaching them
> > (math/reading per hubby's request, they guide themselves on
science
> > and history, compromis;)
> >
>
> It's really helpful for unschooling to not think in terms of
> teaching. It's also very helpful to not divide the world into
subjects.
>
> An unschooler doesn't do curriculum for math. Though they may add
> some kind of more formal math or whatever to their lives to help a
> husband transition. But to help move towards unschooling, it's not
a
> good idea to see the curriculum as fulfilling any math learning at
> all. Math learning will come from living life.
>
> Joyce
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-> truth be told,
> we are the ones that know our child best.

-=-Actually it's the children who know themselves best! :-) -=-



There are children and adults, though, whose parents were sure
"parents know their child best" who have told them their whole lives
what they should think, what they "have to" do, and how disappointing
they are that the "children" no matter how old they are don't know
their own thoughts and instincts.



But if the parents WANT to respect their children, even thought most
people around them discourage considering children real people, then
they (the parents) and the children CAN learn to see and feel and know.

Joyce wrote:

-=-Actually it's the children who know themselves best! :-)


-=-Our goal is to figure out how to listen and interpret what they want.
Our goal is to help them find ways to get what they want is safe and
respectful ways.-=-

That's it.

Sandra







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-you know your son. you know what he wants out of life (well, i'm
assumming he's shared it with you;) but you know how to get him
there because you know 'him'. not every child has the same path,
every child is different. they are not the same as the ps
wants/insist them to be. -=-



I'm guessing this to have been written by someone whose children are
very young. I could be wrong.

My children are 16, 19 and 21. They don't know what they want out of
life, except that they live richly and fully in the moment and they
try to be kind (or at least amusing--they can word-play pretty rough
with their friends).

Marty has just committed to five years worth of payments on a jeep,
and comprehensive insurance. That's something he wanted, to be
driving his own jeep. It's not a life goal. It's not the only car
he'll ever have (unless he doesn't live to wear it out or sell it).

Kirby works a job he loves, and is living in Austin, which he ever
planned or "wanted out of life," but surprise! He's loving it. He,
his apartment-mate and another friend/co-worker are looking for a
house to rent. He has enough money saved to make the first and last
month, deposit and hook ups all by himself, but there will be two
other people to share. That's not a place I got him. It's not a
place he tried to get.



My children to not have ANY "path." So to discuss each having a
path that they will share and that the parents will know how to guide
them on doesn't fit with what I've seen of unschooling at all.

My daughter has a boyfriend whose parents put him on a path. He was
to be a doctor. Period. No arguments. His choices? Doctor or
failure. He didn't want to be a doctor. That's what paths will get
you.

-=-you know what he wants out of life (well, i'm assumming he's
shared it with you;)-=-

Marty used to want to be a policeman. I helped him move toward that
in small ways. He changed his mind. My husband is very relieved.
It wasn't "a path," it was a thought. It was one of countless
possible paths on which he walked for a while.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-maybe i was being too general in my post (i work nights and hadn't
gotten any sleep;)-=-

Don't post unless you want to. Proofread all you want to. Always
consider whether what you write will help people understand
unschooling better, or will be what you really want to say so that
others here can help you understand unschooling better.

-=- i was generalizing about 'who understands the children-teacher
vs. parents.-=-

You were repeating platitudes. There are things mothers say to other
mothers, little recitations that make the other mothers feel good in
that moment. This list isn't one of those places, although there
are MANY lists around for moms to commiserate and coo and soothe.
"Poor us. Life's hard. We know our children better than anyone,
though. What a good **Mom** you are! Your children are so lucky..."

-=- i know what's best-i'm keeping them home!! (kids don't have that
say)-=-

How old are your kids?



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

> I've seen three boys who clearly would be (two were already) named
> "Asperger's," who were unschooled and by the time they were teens
> they were WAY, way calm and good and better than they could possibly
> have been had they been in school, being told they were weird and
> being bullied. They were able to figure out ways to deal with
social
> situations, and ways to grow up strong and aware of their strengths
> and limitations.

I think that this is true for all kids! Even the ones who aren't on
the spectrum.

That is why, I don't like the label of apergers, not because I don't
think it doesn't exist, but because regardless of who a child is, or
what makes up their personality, they can thrive as a whole person when
they are allowed the freedom that unschooling offers.

A teen boy that we know, spent his young years at home with his mom
unschooling. He decided he wanted to go to school when he was about 9
or 10. He went and now regrets ever making that decision because he
can't come back home. He lives with his dad now, also his choice, and
dad won't hear of it. He's much more centered because of being home
longer when he was little, but he still doesn't get a lot of the social
nuances, and as a teen, it's a harsh world when you don't get that!

I think when parents make decisions for their children, they often
forget to look at their children and take them into consideration.
They do what they know and school is it. This kid's dad isn't a bad
guy, he's not an unschooling dad by a longshot, but in general pretty
ok. I don't think he even realizes how much his son suffers and the
power he has to change that, he just doesn't see outside of the school
box. It's hard to watch a smart, nice kid get put through ringer and
see his needs dismissed so that he can take math and all those other
subjects that his dad thinks he has to know.

k

Are you are the Shine with Unschooling list? There are lots of people
there whose children are on the autism spectrum. I can get you the link if
you don't have it.

Katherine



On 7/1/08, carnationsgalore <addled.homemaker@...> wrote:
>
> My ex-husband's wife is a special education teacher in the public
> school system. She has given me some very helpful information in
> the past about my son Jeffrey. He is almost 12 years old and has
> been diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome. I usually ignore the
> schoolish advice she gives me but she said something recently that
> absolutely flabbergasted me. If my son was going to public school,
> he'd be entering 7th grade in August. She flat out told me that I
> needed to make a serious decision about his education because of his
> age. If I want him to be successful in life, I need to get him into
> school where a team of professionals can help him learn how to
> function in the real world with his disability. She actually
> said, "If you don't want him living in your basement for the rest of
> his life, totally dependent on you, you need to get him in school."
>
> I told her that his education was taking place in the real world but
> she went on and on about how he NEEDS to learn how to function in a
> classroom because his future depended on it. Thank goodness I
> needed to leave and was spared further discussion. However, that
> comment bothered me more than I first realized because it sits in
> the back of my mind. As a special needs person, is there really
> something a team of professionals can do to make my son's life go
> more smoothly? I've been flying by the seat of my britches dealing
> with his Aspergers. Our doctors (Kaiser Permanente) have been no
> help and I don't know where else to look for help. I can't believe
> her one comment has really shaken me up so much.
>
> Beth M.
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

i know what's best-i'm keeping them
> home!! (kids don't have that say)


Technically, I guess they don't (kids don't have any rights in the US
and I wish it weren't so, but that's for another discussion), but it
would be soooo empowering if you gave them that choice.

Joanna Murphy

> I do want my son to be able to survive "out there" but I don't think
> that school is a healthy environment for anyone, let alone a kid that
> is a bit "different."
>
The ironic thing is that very few "out theres" are anywhere as tough to survive in as the
school environment. I'm not sure that I've been in as difficult a social environment any other
time in my life, excepting the occasional office x-mas party at hubby's work (where I'm the
only unschooling SAHM in a sea of working women!).

Why people think that school is the way to prepare for making it in the "real world" is beyond
me, although I know that I used to believe it too. Now it just boggles me.

Joanna

Maloneys

Dear Beth M,
I can't believe these comments. How can going to school help your son function in the real world? You are the one who lives with your son in "the real world" and I presume you are helping him to function in it to the best of his ability.
I also believe that a child's parents know their own child better than anybody else. They also love and care for their child better than anyone else. Who better to watch over their child as he/she learns how to live in their community.
Beth trust your own intincts. You know your child better than anyone. Enjoy each day you have together and don't worry too much about the future. The future will take care of itself.
All the best,
Julie xx



----- Original Message -----
From: carnationsgalore
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 10:40 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] How do you handle shocking comments from people?


My ex-husband's wife is a special education teacher in the public
school system. She has given me some very helpful information in
the past about my son Jeffrey. He is almost 12 years old and has
been diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome. I usually ignore the
schoolish advice she gives me but she said something recently that
absolutely flabbergasted me. If my son was going to public school,
he'd be entering 7th grade in August. She flat out told me that I
needed to make a serious decision about his education because of his
age. If I want him to be successful in life, I need to get him into
school where a team of professionals can help him learn how to
function in the real world with his disability. She actually
said, "If you don't want him living in your basement for the rest of
his life, totally dependent on you, you need to get him in school."

I told her that his education was taking place in the real world but
she went on and on about how he NEEDS to learn how to function in a
classroom because his future depended on it. Thank goodness I
needed to leave and was spared further discussion. However, that
comment bothered me more than I first realized because it sits in
the back of my mind. As a special needs person, is there really
something a team of professionals can do to make my son's life go
more smoothly? I've been flying by the seat of my britches dealing
with his Aspergers. Our doctors (Kaiser Permanente) have been no
help and I don't know where else to look for help. I can't believe
her one comment has really shaken me up so much.

Beth M.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Stacey

sorry, i thought i was being helpful. i 'wanted' to help, but
everyone gets misunderstood after a while...don't they?
btw-my kids are 7,5 and nearly 2.

i'll be sure not to post anymore...does everyone on this board
understand unschooling 100%?? i always thought there were different
levels? some radical, some letting the kids 'choose' their topic,
when they feel the need and I, as the mother, will help lead them to
what they are looking for??? hoping one day, they will be able to do
it on their own. (just demonstrating how it's done/learn by example
so to speak)???
i'm easily misunderstood, though i see no reason to be attacked at
such a simple misunderstanding. this is my 6th unschooling site, why
are unschoolers so defensive?? one little misunderstanding...they
jump on you?? i thought unschooling was about being 'open-minded'?
that's why i'm 'leaning that way', so to speak. i just can't find
one friendly unschooler!
stacey:)
>
> -=-maybe i was being too general in my post (i work nights and
hadn't
> gotten any sleep;)-=-
>
> Don't post unless you want to. Proofread all you want to. Always
> consider whether what you write will help people understand
> unschooling better, or will be what you really want to say so that
> others here can help you understand unschooling better.
>
> -=- i was generalizing about 'who understands the children-teacher
> vs. parents.-=-
>
> You were repeating platitudes. There are things mothers say to
other
> mothers, little recitations that make the other mothers feel good
in
> that moment. This list isn't one of those places, although there
> are MANY lists around for moms to commiserate and coo and soothe.
> "Poor us. Life's hard. We know our children better than anyone,
> though. What a good **Mom** you are! Your children are so
lucky..."
>
> -=- i know what's best-i'm keeping them home!! (kids don't have
that
> say)-=-
>
> How old are your kids?
>
>
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-I also believe that a child's parents know their own child better
than anybody else. They also love and care for their child better
than anyone else. -=-

All parents?
Then we have no need for this list at all.
There's no need for social workers anymore.

We were all brought up in the best possible way on earth. No one was
ever abused.



There are problems with platitudes.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-.does everyone on this board understand unschooling 100%?? -=-

No, but there is an assumption that those who advise are advising
from a position of experience with unschooling.

It's great for people to ask questions, but those who respond should
qualify their statements if they're not "known entities" on the list.

The list is not new (fall 2001). Did you join without reading the
description?
It's here:
Discussion for homeschooling fans of John Holt, whose books Learning
All the Time, Never Too Late, and Teach your Own have made
unschooling a sweet and viable option for thousands of families.
This is a moderated group, with trapdoors for the uncooperative. (Not
moderated in the advance-approval way, but in the be-nice-to-play
way.) It's an idea group and is intended to lean more toward pure
unschooling than neutral, general homeschooling discussion�there are
hundreds of general homeschooling discussions for newcomers. It's to
focus more toward how people learn no matter where in the world they
are, rather than on what's legal in any particular country or
jurisdiction. If you have questions or complaints, write to
Sandra@...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/



-=-this is my 6th unschooling site, why
are unschoolers so defensive?? one little misunderstanding...they
jump on you?? i thought unschooling was about being 'open-minded'?
that's why i'm 'leaning that way', so to speak. i just can't find
one friendly unschooler!-=-

Is it possible that you're writing more than you're reading? Is it
possible that the unschoolers really want to examine unschooling and
not other ideas? Other ideas are *everywhere.* Unschooling
discussions are rare, and if they become discussions about everything
else, there will be no unschooling discussions.

If unschoolers seem defensive, perhaps it's because they have
something worth defending.

We are criticized and misunderstood by mainstream families just as
all homeschoolers are. Then we're criticized and misunderstood by
other homeschoolers.



Yet our children thrive and our families are often strengthened. I
don't want this unschooling discussion diluted. It's too important.

But defensive unschoolers won't be defensive when no one is saying
anything contrary to unschooling. So if you go to a 7th or 8th
unschooling discussion, try reading a lot and writing only a little,
and when you write be upfront about your experience.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

diana jenner

On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 4:46 AM, Stacey <alabtu@...> wrote:

> sorry, i thought i was being helpful. i 'wanted' to help, but
> everyone gets misunderstood after a while...don't they?
> btw-my kids are 7,5 and nearly 2.
>
> i'll be sure not to post anymore...does everyone on this board
> understand unschooling 100%?? i always thought there were different
> levels? some radical, some letting the kids 'choose' their topic,
> when they feel the need and I, as the mother, will help lead them to
> what they are looking for??? hoping one day, they will be able to do
> it on their own. (just demonstrating how it's done/learn by example
> so to speak)???
>













**If you're using the scale of Radical Unschooling at one end and
Unschooling Except for _____________ on the other end, then you've landed
squarely on the Radical (or Whole Life) end of things. There's no separation
of life into compartments on this list. You'll not find support for doing it
any way except the WHOLE way. You're either swimming or you're not.
I truly appreciate Sandra's no-nonsense approach to things. Your kids are
only gonna be small for a blip of time... you don't have the luxury of
figuring out how to be respectful of them over the next 20 years, it's now
or never -- really!! There *IS* a sense of urgency when it comes to our
kids.

> i'm easily misunderstood, though i see no reason to be attacked at
> such a simple misunderstanding.
>




**No reason to see yourself attacked. Step back, take a deep breath, &
clarify your thoughts. That's all. Plain and simple.
If you're finding yourself "easily misunderstood" mayhap you should do the
above three steps before communicating, ever.
This is a sincere offering of help -- NO ONE should feel they are
misunderstood on a regular basis.
And one constant in my learning (and that of many others) is, "The truth
will set your free, but first it will PI$$ YOU OFF" Over the years, there
have been many, many of us who walked away from our computer screens,
licking imaginary wounds, only to discover that painful experience led
directly to a very deep rooted TRUTH in life.

> this is my 6th unschooling site, why
> are unschoolers so defensive??
>




**Defensive? When I am challenged to look deeply at the words I'm using and
the thoughts behind them, I am grateful that someone cares enough about my
*childrens'* futures to give me a nudge in the right direction. Not
defending anything except your child's right to have a parent who thinks
CLEARLY before s/he speaks.
Here's something that has stuck with me for years - the only thing all 6 of
the sites you've visited have in common is YOU. If you feel misunderstood at
every place, it is high time to take a look at your communication skills.

> one little misunderstanding...they
> jump on you?? i thought unschooling was about being 'open-minded'?
>




**The only thing jumped on around here is trampolines :D Open minded, yes.
Critically looking at mainstream-speak and mainstream behaviors toward
children is the norm in the unschooling circles I travel in.

that's why i'm 'leaning that way', so to speak. i just can't find one
> friendly unschooler!
>
>

**I'm pretty friendly :) And my unschooling friends are pretty friendly --
and still we call on another on platitudes and comments that don't seem to
have root in a respectful life philosophy. I helps if you read what is
written while imagining the discussion happening over coffee in your
favorite shop, with the sweetest voice you can conjure and knowing the
advice is given with the intention of pulling out of YOU that mama you
always wanted to be, the mama your kids so truly deserve you to be.
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

barbara emrich

Sandra--

Thank you for using that term "diluted." It's what makes me frustrated
about lists that want to be all things to all people. I joined this list
because I enjoy a rather focused discussion and thoughtful exploration of
the concept of unschooling, which I find to be very distinct in many ways
from homeschooling. I'm not angry when someone goes on and on about
something other than unschooling, but I do find myself wondering about what
else in their lives they lack focus in. Critical? Perhaps. Unfriendly?
Nah. You should hear all the thoughts I keep to myself!
Barb

On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 11:51 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> -=-.does everyone on this board understand unschooling 100%?? -=-
>
> No, but there is an assumption that those who advise are advising
> from a position of experience with unschooling.
>
> It's great for people to ask questions, but those who respond should
> qualify their statements if they're not "known entities" on the list.
>
> The list is not new (fall 2001). Did you join without reading the
> description?
> It's here:
> Discussion for homeschooling fans of John Holt, whose books Learning
> All the Time, Never Too Late, and Teach your Own have made
> unschooling a sweet and viable option for thousands of families.
> This is a moderated group, with trapdoors for the uncooperative. (Not
> moderated in the advance-approval way, but in the be-nice-to-play
> way.) It's an idea group and is intended to lean more toward pure
> unschooling than neutral, general homeschooling discussion�there are
> hundreds of general homeschooling discussions for newcomers. It's to
> focus more toward how people learn no matter where in the world they
> are, rather than on what's legal in any particular country or
> jurisdiction. If you have questions or complaints, write to
> Sandra@...
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
>
>
>
> -=-this is my 6th unschooling site, why
> are unschoolers so defensive?? one little misunderstanding...they
> jump on you?? i thought unschooling was about being 'open-minded'?
> that's why i'm 'leaning that way', so to speak. i just can't find
> one friendly unschooler!-=-
>
> Is it possible that you're writing more than you're reading? Is it
> possible that the unschoolers really want to examine unschooling and
> not other ideas? Other ideas are *everywhere.* Unschooling
> discussions are rare, and if they become discussions about everything
> else, there will be no unschooling discussions.
>
> If unschoolers seem defensive, perhaps it's because they have
> something worth defending.
>
> We are criticized and misunderstood by mainstream families just as
> all homeschoolers are. Then we're criticized and misunderstood by
> other homeschoolers.
>
>
>
> Yet our children thrive and our families are often strengthened. I
> don't want this unschooling discussion diluted. It's too important.
>
> But defensive unschoolers won't be defensive when no one is saying
> anything contrary to unschooling. So if you go to a 7th or 8th
> unschooling discussion, try reading a lot and writing only a little,
> and when you write be upfront about your experience.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Stacey

this is all easier said then done. in my house there 'is' no
choice. i'm sorry. not all of us 'can' unschool, i want to. i want
to learn about it. but i can't do it 100%. if that's not
acceptable, maybe i should leave this site. i was referred to this
site from a hs group. everyone (there was a 'huge' discussion on the
subject) was having the same experience as i was. we don't have
anything against unschooling, we just all end up afraid to post/ask
questions. we were told this one was friendly.
sorry, i will be removing my name from the list. i have no choice, i
CAN NOT unschool 100%,(at least where subjects are concerned) i
thought that was enough. i thought i would be supported/applauded
for at least taking it that far. maybe a few years from now...i'll
be complete. but until my husband takes his foot off those 2
subjects (i hold the majority) i simply can't. why is that so hard
to understand?
stacey
>
> On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 4:46 AM, Stacey <alabtu@...> wrote:
>
> > sorry, i thought i was being helpful. i 'wanted' to help, but
> > everyone gets misunderstood after a while...don't they?
> > btw-my kids are 7,5 and nearly 2.
> >
> > i'll be sure not to post anymore...does everyone on this board
> > understand unschooling 100%?? i always thought there were
different
> > levels? some radical, some letting the kids 'choose' their topic,
> > when they feel the need and I, as the mother, will help lead them
to
> > what they are looking for??? hoping one day, they will be able to
do
> > it on their own. (just demonstrating how it's done/learn by
example
> > so to speak)???
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> **If you're using the scale of Radical Unschooling at one end and
> Unschooling Except for _____________ on the other end, then you've
landed
> squarely on the Radical (or Whole Life) end of things. There's no
separation
> of life into compartments on this list. You'll not find support for
doing it
> any way except the WHOLE way. You're either swimming or you're not.
> I truly appreciate Sandra's no-nonsense approach to things. Your
kids are
> only gonna be small for a blip of time... you don't have the luxury
of
> figuring out how to be respectful of them over the next 20 years,
it's now
> or never -- really!! There *IS* a sense of urgency when it comes to
our
> kids.
>
> > i'm easily misunderstood, though i see no reason to be attacked at
> > such a simple misunderstanding.
> >
>
>
>
>
> **No reason to see yourself attacked. Step back, take a deep
breath, &
> clarify your thoughts. That's all. Plain and simple.
> If you're finding yourself "easily misunderstood" mayhap you should
do the
> above three steps before communicating, ever.
> This is a sincere offering of help -- NO ONE should feel they are
> misunderstood on a regular basis.
> And one constant in my learning (and that of many others) is, "The
truth
> will set your free, but first it will PI$$ YOU OFF" Over the years,
there
> have been many, many of us who walked away from our computer
screens,
> licking imaginary wounds, only to discover that painful experience
led
> directly to a very deep rooted TRUTH in life.
>
> > this is my 6th unschooling site, why
> > are unschoolers so defensive??
> >
>
>
>
>
> **Defensive? When I am challenged to look deeply at the words I'm
using and
> the thoughts behind them, I am grateful that someone cares enough
about my
> *childrens'* futures to give me a nudge in the right direction. Not
> defending anything except your child's right to have a parent who
thinks
> CLEARLY before s/he speaks.
> Here's something that has stuck with me for years - the only thing
all 6 of
> the sites you've visited have in common is YOU. If you feel
misunderstood at
> every place, it is high time to take a look at your communication
skills.
>
> > one little misunderstanding...they
> > jump on you?? i thought unschooling was about being 'open-minded'?
> >
>
>
>
>
> **The only thing jumped on around here is trampolines :D Open
minded, yes.
> Critically looking at mainstream-speak and mainstream behaviors
toward
> children is the norm in the unschooling circles I travel in.
>
> that's why i'm 'leaning that way', so to speak. i just can't find
one
> > friendly unschooler!
> >
> >
>
> **I'm pretty friendly :) And my unschooling friends are pretty
friendly --
> and still we call on another on platitudes and comments that don't
seem to
> have root in a respectful life philosophy. I helps if you read what
is
> written while imagining the discussion happening over coffee in your
> favorite shop, with the sweetest voice you can conjure and knowing
the
> advice is given with the intention of pulling out of YOU that mama
you
> always wanted to be, the mama your kids so truly deserve you to be.
> --
> ~diana :)
> xoxoxoxo
> hannahbearski.blogspot.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

Stacey, I've figured out why you're having trouble with unschoolers!
You're insulting them.

-=-we were told this one was friendly.-=-
You've declared this list unfriendly.


-=-we don't have
anything against unschooling, we just all end up afraid to post/ask
questions.-=-

You weren't asking questions. You were giving advice. And in light
of the way unschooling works, it wasn't good advice.

-=-i thought i would be supported/applauded -=-

If what you want is support and applause, you'll be able to find a
list (IF you manage not to insult them in your posts) that will coo
and soothe you and tell you things like "you know your child better
than anyone!" but they won't really be helping you further your
understanding. If you want to learn you need to read more and post
less.



Now I'll go back to some points at the beginning of your post:


-=-i'm sorry. not all of us 'can' unschool-=-

Are you apologizing or being snarky? Can't tell. Neither is good,
though.

Of course not everyone can unschool. Should we who have figured out
how stop unschooling because not everyone can? Should we stop
helping others freely because not everyone can?

Most people don't even want to think about it. No one here has any
responsibility to moms a thousand miles away they haven't met. Each
person who shares here is giving a gift to anyone who comes by and
wants to learn. We're not trying to hurt anyone or make them
unhappy. We're giving them information with which they might be able
to make their children and themselves happier.

-=-this is all easier said then done. in my house there 'is' no
choice.-=-



#1, how easy do you really think it is to write things like this
daily for 12 years or more?

#2, it's helpful and comforting to think you have no choice, but it's
not true.

Sandra









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]