experience, age, and judging

Earth Witch

31 Jan 2002, at 8:42am

I just could not NOT respond about the experience/age
thing.
While I do not doubt that experience has some value,
it seems to me a poor way to judge some one. I can
understand that some one whose child is 5 has not had
the experience of 'raising' (I really despise that
word, but lack the creativity at this moment to
replace it) a 10 year old. However, that does not
mean they do not have the knowledge and/or
understanding of what a 10 year old goes through or
the memories of being the 10 year old. Those can be
very valuable and sometimes extrememly insightful
points of view that are often ignored. I know many,
far too many, adults who think they know it all about
'raising' kids because they have had 4 that are now
adults. But the truth is, their experience of raising
kids is far from my ideals and my experiences of being
a kid. Their experience only helps me from the what
not to do point of view. Their advice is useless to
me. Experience does not necessarily mean knowledge,
understanding, or "good" advice.

I have been called, more than once, young and
idealistic. It was meant as an insult, but I took it
as a compliment. Idealism can cause wonderful things
to happen. Idealism can be just as valuable as
experience, it is what gets people on this path in the
first place. Those of us who are 'new' to unschooling
are idealistic. We see this theory, this way of life,
that for some reason fits us and our beliefs. One can
fully understand the ideas without the experience from
the parent perspective. I may not have the experience
of unschooling for x amount of years, but I have an
understanding of it from my experiences with learning.
I can watch children and see how they learn without
directly 'raising' them.

Age....I have a huge problem with people classifying
others intelligence, wisdom, or understanding by their
age. I know some people who are pretty old, 90, that
do not know half of what I do. Yes, she has the
experience of living every age up to that one, but the
WAY she lived it does not provide her with knowledge
or wisdom. Does age really matter? I do not think
so. I have heard on here, as well as from some
relatives, that people change at 30. I think that is
such a unrealistic pre-judgement of people. Some
people never grow up, some do at young ages. Some
children have more wisdom to offer than some 80 year
olds.

Until one really knows another person, it is IMO,
somewhat foolish to discount their opinions simply
because they are young and inexperienced. It would
also be foolish to assume just because some one is
older and has children that are grown, that they know
everything about parenting or nothing about it. I
actually assumed that experienced unschoolers would
not judge others by age, experience, or other
arbitrary means....I assumed they would have a better
grasp of the diverse ways in which people grow and
learn and come to wisdom. I was foolish to assume
that.
While I think it is a good suggestion that people read
and listen more on here, I think it is a good
suggestion for everyone, not just new unschoolers or
people with young children.
Perhaps we could all learn more from one another if
our pre-judgements were put aside. The new
unschoolers may say something that an experienced one
can learn from, but if you discount it because they
are new you may miss out.

Peace.

Namaste,
Kitrina

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31 Jan 2002, at 9:28am

In a message dated 1/31/02 10:45:17 AM, the_earth_witch@... writes:

<< Those of us who are 'new' to unschooling
are idealistic. We see this theory, this way of life,
that for some reason fits us and our beliefs. One can
fully understand the ideas without the experience from
the parent perspective. >>

Sure. Absolutely.

What I have found, however, is that reality and experience often alter my
inner understanding of how those ideas affect me and my family. An idea, a
theory, is one thing. Applying it to one's life, that's another stage. And
life with a 10 year old, while there's that constant of love and affection
and idealism running though our relationship, is different from life with a
five year old.

And life isn't pure, eh? What starts out as a pure idealistic theory, can be
amazingly altered and enhanced by the activities and reactions of a real life
child.

If I've learned anything as a parent, it's that awareness -- that willingness
to gauge and ponder, to listen and observe, to bend and stretch -- to dance
with ideas and theory, not to place them on a pedestal or mark them
"understood" and shelve them away -- that has most helped me grow.

That's what people offer here, methinks. The experience which enriches the
theory. Not to say, I understand it better than someone new -- but to say,
here's another way this works.

Sharon

[email protected]

31 Jan 2002, at 10:11am

In a message dated 1/31/02 8:44:57 AM, the_earth_witch@... writes:

<< I may not have the experience
of unschooling for x amount of years, but I have an
understanding of it from my experiences with learning.
I can watch children and see how they learn without
directly 'raising' them. >>

Yes you can.

<<Idealism can cause wonderful things
to happen. Idealism can be just as valuable as
experience, it is what gets people on this path in the
first place. >>

Sure. There's nobody here who hasn't been younger, and probably more
idealistic.
So it's kind of like people whose kids have ONLY been in school telling
homeschoolers about homeschooling. They might have watched other
homeschoolers, but they don't know what it feels like to take your kids out,
or to be in the midst of the responsibility of that thirteen years of
abstinence from the government program that parents whose kids never went to
school experience at some point.

So those with experience remember youth and idealism.
Those with youth and idealism can't really imagine how experience feels.

<< Experience does not necessarily mean knowledge,
understanding, or "good" advice.>>

In any specific instance, that is true.

On this particular list, the experience of someone who has unschooled a
school-aged child successfully and is calm about it SHOULD be considered
valuable to new readers, new unschoolers, and those with pre-schoolage kids.

Because you know what? Until the day your child is of an age to be required
to attend school and the bus passes by and he stays home, you're not
unschooling. You can be planning to, and you can be bravely ignoring
pressure to put him in a fancy pre-school like your neighbors and relatives
do, but anyone whose child is four or five could still yet decide to put him
in school. He's at home like any other four or five year old could be
legally at home with the parents TOTALLY intending to put him in public
school for over a decade.

<<Age....I have a huge problem with people classifying
others intelligence, wisdom, or understanding by their
age. ... Does age really matter? I do not think
so. >>

Can you seal this in an envelope, date it for ten years from now, and report
back to us please?

<>

PRE judgement? How about the experience of people who used to be under 30
and knew hundreds of people who were too, who grew through that, who have
known hundreds or thousands of people grow from teens, through twenties, to
thirties and they've seen a pattern?

WE have been under and over thirty.
Those who have not can't tell us we're unrealistic and "pre-judging."

Is it pre-judgment if I don't expect a ten month old baby to walk?
Does it prove anything about babies as a class of people if one walks at nine
months?

Is it pre-judgment if I tell the parent of a six year old who isn't talking
plainly that speech therapy will cause more damage than good for a kid who's
not in school at all? That's experience.

<< Some
children have more wisdom to offer than some 80 year
olds. >>

Yes, but that's not from experience. That's from thoughtful awareness. And
there is a huge amount of that on this list, as well.

<<Until one really knows another person, it is IMO,
somewhat foolish to discount their opinions simply
because they are young and inexperienced. >>

If you'd been on this list since the beginning, you would have known that
this last Monday was not an average day, nor a happy day. And most of the
noise was being made by people who either weren't unschoolers, or who were
new to it, or whose kids were really small. That's just rude. And my
request that people read a while first was reasonable.

<<I
actually assumed that experienced unschoolers would
not judge others by age, experience, or other
arbitrary means....I assumed they would have a better
grasp of the diverse ways in which people grow and
learn and come to wisdom.>>

Insults won't make us think more of your wisdom and judgment. If you thought
they would, you need to get more experience.

<<While I think it is a good suggestion that people read
and listen more on here, I think it is a good
suggestion for everyone, not just new unschoolers or
people with young children.>>

Experienced unschoolers would not have made the arguments being made on
Monday.

<<Perhaps we could all learn more from one another if
our pre-judgements were put aside. >>

It happens all the time. And invariably, after a few years, unschoolers say
"I thought I knew so much when I started, but now that I've really lived it
it's so natural."

There's a profound difference between reciting the rules for riding a bicycle
and critiquing others' bike riding and discussing the history of bicycles,
and actually being able to ride a bike under adverse conditions without
consciously thinking about it.

<<The new
unschoolers may say something that an experienced one
can learn from, but if you discount it because they
are new you may miss out.>>

I WAS discounting things that were being said on Monday, not because the
people were new, but because what they were saying was not going to work in
the context of unschooling, and they weren't backing off from saying it,
insultingly, in the presence of my well-behaved guests who were already at
the party.

Sandra

Earth Witch

31 Jan 2002, at 10:32am

> If I've learned anything as a parent, it's that
> awareness -- that willingness
> to gauge and ponder, to listen and observe, to bend
> and stretch -- to dance
> with ideas and theory, not to place them on a
> pedestal or mark them
> "understood" and shelve them away -- that has most
> helped me grow.
>

The specific theory I was talking about was that of
unschooling, or what it means to me, child-led
learning. I think the core of that theory can remain
the same while the parent's understanding and child's
needs change. I am not saying that because some one
understands the basis, the core ideal of the theory,
that they do not have room left to learn. It seemed
to me, however, that people were questioning whether
some one could understand it without the experience.
Perhaps I misunderstood, or the wording was not clear,
or the intent behind the words was missed by me.
Anyway, I think one can grow and be open-minded while
holding their core beliefs.

Kitrina

> That's what people offer here, methinks. The
> experience which enriches the
> theory. Not to say, I understand it better than
> someone new -- but to say,
> here's another way this works.
>
> Sharon
>

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31 Jan 2002, at 11:07am

In a message dated 1/31/02 10:36:30 AM, the_earth_witch@... writes:

<< It seemed
to me, however, that people were questioning whether
some one could understand it without the experience.
Perhaps I misunderstood, or the wording was not clear,
or the intent behind the words was missed by me. >>

I think the intent behind the words was unperceived in your rush to take it
personally. As hostess/list owner, I have a responsibility to those who have
peacefully assembled.

I don't even think it was your posts that were the problem the other day. I
wasn't reading names so much as content (as usual), so it's okay not to
remind me one way or the other. But you're defending other people on
principle, I think, which at this point is a waste of defense, as one dropped
the list and two have paused a bit to catch the rhythm of the discussions.

Sandra

Earth Witch

31 Jan 2002, at 11:20am

>
> So those with experience remember youth and
> idealism.
> Those with youth and idealism can't really imagine
> how experience feels.

Wouldn't it depend on the experience? One can have
youth, idealism, and experience. The experience may
not be as a parent, but as the child, or aunt, etc.
It is not the same experience, but valuable experience
none the less. We each have our own way of
interpretting and experiencing things that plays a
part as well.

> On this particular list, the experience of someone
> who has unschooled a
> school-aged child successfully and is calm about it
> SHOULD be considered
> valuable to new readers, new unschoolers, and those
> with pre-schoolage kids.

I agree. I find lots on this list valuable. But it is
not always going to be valuable to those people
because they may have a different ideal of what
unschooling is and they experience things differently.

>
> Because you know what? Until the day your child is
> of an age to be required
> to attend school and the bus passes by and he stays
> home, you're not
> unschooling.

I disagree because of how I see unschooling. I see it
as a way of life that can start from birth. It does
not really have to do with school, but with how we
live.

> <<Age....I have a huge problem with people
> classifying
> others intelligence, wisdom, or understanding by
> their
> age. ... Does age really matter? I do not think
> so. >>
>
> Can you seal this in an envelope, date it for ten
> years from now, and report
> back to us please?
>

Sure. I am not claiming that I won't change, grow,
gain wisdom, etc. But that it has little to nothing
to do with age and has to do with who I am, my
personality, and my goals.

> < such a unrealistic pre-judgement of people. >>
>
> PRE judgement? How about the experience of people
> who used to be under 30
> and knew hundreds of people who were too, who grew
> through that, who have
> known hundreds or thousands of people grow from
> teens, through twenties, to
> thirties and they've seen a pattern?

But a pattern does not define EVERY person of those
ages. There are always people who do not fit in the
patterns. And your experience of being under thirty
could be VERY different from mine.

>
> WE have been under and over thirty.
> Those who have not can't tell us we're unrealistic
> and "pre-judging."

If you are judging me strictly by my age, then I
would, and feel right in saying so, that you were
pre-judging me, regardless of your experience. Your
experience is not mine, your personality is not mine,
so you really could not judge me rightly just from
knowing my age.

>
> Is it pre-judgment if I don't expect a ten month old
> baby to walk?

I would say any expectation is a pre-judgment. My son
walked at 10 months, I did not expect it, I judged
wrongly that he would not walk until around 12 months.

> Does it prove anything about babies as a class of
> people if one walks at nine
> months?

It proves that the standard, the usual, is not always.
That expectations based on experience are not always
correct in judging another.

> And my
> request that people read a while first was
> reasonable.
>

I agree.
I think it would be a reasonable request to anyone
first joining a list, whether experienced or not
because the dynamics of the list may not fit them and
their definitions for unschooling, or whatever the
list is for, may not be the same.

> < actually assumed that experienced unschoolers would
> not judge others by age, experience, or other
> arbitrary means....I assumed they would have a
> better
> grasp of the diverse ways in which people grow and
> learn and come to wisdom.>>
>
> Insults won't make us think more of your wisdom and
> judgment. If you thought
> they would, you need to get more experience.

It was not intended as an insult. I was pointing out
an assumption of mine that classified people as the
same just because of a title they choose to wear. I
was pointing out my fault of assuming before I knew
people. Not everyone will have the same understanding
of how one learns and grows, that is what I meant.
The word 'better' should have been replaced by
something like "a grasp of it similar to mine, since
we are classifying ourselves similarly". Sorry if it
insulted anyone, that was not my intent.

>
> <<While I think it is a good suggestion that people
> read
> and listen more on here, I think it is a good
> suggestion for everyone, not just new unschoolers or
> people with young children.>>
>
> Experienced unschoolers would not have made the
> arguments being made on
> Monday.
>

Mostly not, but that would depend somewhat on how they
defined unschooling.
And some inexperienced ones would not have made the
arguments either.

> <<Perhaps we could all learn more from one another
> if
> our pre-judgements were put aside. >>
>
> It happens all the time. And invariably, after a
> few years, unschoolers say
> "I thought I knew so much when I started, but now
> that I've really lived it
> it's so natural."

Maybe that is why I feel different. It feels natural
to me now, and has for a long time, but yet I don't
feel like I know so much.

>
> I WAS discounting things that were being said on
> Monday, not because the
> people were new, but because what they were saying
> was not going to work in
> the context of unschooling, and they weren't backing
> off from saying it,
> insultingly, in the presence of my well-behaved
> guests who were already at
> the party.
>
> Sandra

Okay. That is not how I understood it because age and
experience were brought into it, and for me that
confused the original point.

Kitrina

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Earth Witch

31 Jan 2002, at 11:29am

>
> I think the intent behind the words was unperceived
> in your rush to take it
> personally. As hostess/list owner, I have a
> responsibility to those who have
> peacefully assembled.

I did not take it personally as I was not all that
involved in the discussion or in agreement with those
who it was directed toward. It is something that I
question, though, in RL or on lists when I hear it
said.

>>But you're
> defending other people on
> principle, I think, which at this point is a waste
> of defense, as one dropped
> the list and two have paused a bit to catch the
> rhythm of the discussions.
>
> Sandra
>

I am not attempting to defend anyone, but to discuss a
topic that was brought up that I feel some passion
about.

K

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31 Jan 2002, at 11:58am

In a message dated 1/31/02 11:37:02 AM, the_earth_witch@... writes:

<>

Which people? Those-people who?

>

If anyone ever tells us "We unschooled until Bubette was five, and then she
went to school. I'm so glad we unschooled her!" I'll probably be nice enough
to wait until they're out of earshot to laugh.

ALL preschoolers should be learning through games and experiences. What's
the difference between unschooling and the way a sensitive, responsible
parent of a two-year-old who keeps her at home will act?

<<Sure. I am not claiming that I won't change, grow,
gain wisdom, etc. >>

People here are trying to assure you that you WILL change, grow and gain
wisdom.

<<But a pattern does not define EVERY person of those
ages. There are always people who do not fit in the
patterns. And your experience of being under thirty
could be VERY different from mine. >>

And our experiences when we were under thirty, no matter how similar or
different, were the experiences of twenty-year-olds.

<<But a pattern does not define EVERY person of those
ages. There>>

There are three-legged dogs.
We don't count on them.

(Ooh! pun, accidently, which I'll leave. <g>)

<<If you are judging me strictly by my age, then I
would, and feel right in saying so, that you were
pre-judging me, regardless of your experience. >>

Not regardless of my experience. BECAUSE of my experience.

<<Maybe that is why I feel different. It feels natural
to me now, and has for a long time, but yet I don't
feel like I know so much. .>

Then perhaps you're assuming we don't know so much either.

I've met many of the women on this list in person. They know a HECK of a
lot, in depth, not just about their own children, but other unschooling
families they've been in contact with for years. This is long range
information with depth, not snapshot-of-the-moment statistics .

<<> I WAS discounting things that were being said on

> Monday, not because the
> people were new, but because what they were saying
> was not going to work in
> the context of unschooling, and they weren't backing
> off from saying it,
> insultingly, in the presence of my well-behaved
> guests who were already at
> the party.
>
> Sandra

<<Okay. That is not how I understood it because age and
experience were brought into it, and for me that
confused the original point.>>

Age and experience were germaine.

I don't want my back wall to be painted on. My neighbors got graffiti.

For many reasons I could explain, I would be more nervous if I heard Jr.High
aged boys back there whispering than if I heard a couple of older men talking
right out loud.

Prejudice? Experience. Certainly not baseless prejudice. Who's more likely
to have a can of spray paint and nothing better to do? Who's more likely to
own his own house and wall and know that spray painting someone else's is not
cool?

The problems Monday WERE, as far as I could tell, caused by newer unschoolers
and non-unschoolers. If I average their actions to all people "to be
fair," that is NOT fair to the classes of people who weren't involved. If I
report to the police that some boys who appeared to be 12 or 13 painted on a
wall, I could just say "they were 5'5" and had brown hair, but why cast
suspicion on every non-blonde Caucasion in town
"just to be fair"?

Sandra

[email protected]

31 Jan 2002, at 12:07pm

SandraDodd@... writes:

> There's a profound difference between reciting the rules for riding a
> bicycle
> and critiquing others' bike riding and discussing the history of bicycles,
> and actually being able to ride a bike under adverse conditions without
> consciously thinking about it.

I can ride a bike quite well---been riding without training wheels since I
was 6.

I ain't no Lance Armstrong!

Kelly

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pat Cald...

31 Jan 2002, at 12:42pm

From: kbcdlovejo@...

>I can ride a bike quite well---been riding without training wheels since I
>was 6.

>I ain't no Lance Armstrong!

>Kelly

Have you ever done any bike racing? I don't race anymore but it sure was fun when I had the time to train.

Pat

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Earth Witch

31 Jan 2002, at 1:51pm

--- SandraDodd@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 1/31/02 11:37:02 AM,
> the_earth_witch@... writes:
>
> < not always going to be valuable to those people
> because they may have a different ideal of what
> unschooling is and they experience things
> differently. >>
>
> Which people? Those-people who?

The people you pointed out in what I was responding
to, "to new readers, new unschoolers, and those
with pre-schoolage kids."

> ALL preschoolers should be learning through games
> and experiences.

But they are not.

>What's
> the difference between unschooling and the way a
> sensitive, responsible
> parent of a two-year-old who keeps her at home will
> act?
>

I know plenty, unfortunately, of people who force
their 2-5 year olds to do things. They make them
memorize the abc song, drill them on how to tie a
shoe, 'teach' them to write, only play games with the
hidden agenda of teaching something, buy and force
curriculum on them....and on and on. Would you
consider that 'unschooling' (I mean the philosophy of
child-led, natural learning)? I don't. That is why I
consider it a lifestyle. With exception to hsers,
every child I know above the age of 3 is in preschool.
Many hsers feel the need to teach their children at
young ages also.

> <<Sure. I am not claiming that I won't change,
> grow,
> gain wisdom, etc. >>
>
> People here are trying to assure you that you WILL
> change, grow and gain
> wisdom.
>

That is not how it came across....it was more like
saying new unschoolers or younger people are not going
to know certain things. I agree completely that I
will do all of those things, but the point is that it
has to do with who I am, not my age, and that even as
a young, newer parent I may have something useful to
offer.

>
> And our experiences when we were under thirty, no
> matter how similar or
> different, were the experiences of twenty-year-olds.

But, again, it can be very different experiences. I
know many twenty somethings who do not have children,
who think the purpose of life is to go to a bar and
have every new thing that money can buy. Is there
experience the same as mine, a 24 year old mother of
two, with a husband, and a desire to grow and learn?
Not even close. Their judgment of the twenties will
be very different from mine.

> <<Maybe that is why I feel different. It feels
> natural
> to me now, and has for a long time, but yet I don't
> feel like I know so much. .>
>
> Then perhaps you're assuming we don't know so much
> either.

No, but I am assuming you all still have something to
learn. I assume EVERYONE does. And if they do, why
discard something based on a persons age or
experience? That was my thinking.

>
> I've met many of the women on this list in person.
> They know a HECK of a
> lot, in depth, not just about their own children,
> but other unschooling
> families they've been in contact with for years.
> This is long range
> information with depth, not snapshot-of-the-moment
> statistics .

Good. Like I said from the start, experience can have
value.

>
> Prejudice? Experience. Certainly not baseless
> prejudice.

That is something I will have to think on because of
my beliefs. I would never say prejudice is
justified......yet sometimes we have to make judgments
in situations.

Kitrina

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Nanci Kuykendall

31 Jan 2002, at 2:05pm

>While I do not doubt that experience has some value,
>it seems to me a poor way to judge some one........

(snip)

>Age....I have a huge problem with people classifying
>others intelligence, wisdom, or understanding by

their

>age......

(snip)

>While I think it is a good suggestion that people

read

>and listen more on here, I think it is a good
>suggestion for everyone, not just new unschoolers or
>people with young children.
>Perhaps we could all learn more from one another if
>our pre-judgements were put aside....
>Kitrina

Wow Katrina. I wanted to repaste your whole post, but
I will just say that I agree wholeheartedly with
everything you had to say in this post. I posted
earlier this week with similar sentiments. I don't
believe in judging others, although I know I do. We
all do, to some extent, judge the people around us,
unconsciously and consciously. I have always had a
very diverse pool of friends, from all ages,
backgrounds, cultures and lifestyles, and have felt
blessed to have them in my life. I am always saddened
by people who judge me or others offhandedly because
of silly things like age. Sad for them mostly.

Nanci K.

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31 Jan 2002, at 3:06pm

In a message dated 1/31/02 1:54:57 PM, the_earth_witch@... writes:

<>

Judgments based on what?
On knowledge, experience, belief, a sense of fairness, a sense of
self-preservation, personal history, personal integrity...

<<yet sometimes we have to make judgments
in situations. >>

Sometimes?
Always.

Sandra

Nanci Kuykendall

31 Jan 2002, at 3:07pm

>I think the intent behind the words was

unperceived....

I think this goes both ways. I cannot speak for
Katrina, but I know that when I posted on this topic
about judging others, my feeling was that YES,
experience is a good thing and one can benefit greatly
by experience freely shared from those with wisdom.
But, BUT ~ those who lack experience should not be
discounted or dismissed as being unworthy of listening
to or lacking intelligence, fresh perspective or their
own brand of wisdom.

I know I was not defending ANYONE in particular, and
did NOT in fact agree with a lot of the things posted
earlier this week. I was defending the principle of
non-judgemental behavior, listening to all comers and
valuing everyone's input for what it was, finding
wisdom when it was offered without judging the source
for worthiness.

Nanci K.

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Earth Witch

31 Jan 2002, at 3:15pm

--- SandraDodd@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 1/31/02 1:54:57 PM,
> the_earth_witch@... writes:
>
> < justified......yet sometimes we have to make
> judgments
> in situations. >>
>
> Judgments based on what?
> On knowledge, experience, belief, a sense of
> fairness, a sense of
> self-preservation, personal history, personal
> integrity...
>
> <<yet sometimes we have to make judgments
> in situations. >>
>
> Sometimes?
> Always.
>
> Sandra
>

Like I said, that is something I will have to think
on. It could be that people are using the word
judgment in different ways, causing some confusion.

K

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Sharon Rudd

31 Jan 2002, at 3:23pm

> While I think it is a good suggestion that people
> read
> and listen more on here, I think it is a good
> suggestion for everyone, not just new unschoolers or
> people with young children.

But if nobody posts, what will anybody read? I agree
with most of the rest of what you said.

Sharon (Old Woman)of the Swamp with lots of
experiences, not all of them worthwhile or pleasant

"Age before beauty." What you say to someone younger
than yourself who can't figure out who should go
first.

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[email protected]

31 Jan 2002, at 3:45pm

In a message dated 1/31/02 3:17:17 PM, the_earth_witch@... writes:

<< Like I said, that is something I will have to think
on. It could be that people are using the word
judgment in different ways, causing some confusion. >>

Judgment is such a huge concept and issue you could think about it for a year
and STILL there would be confusion, even in you. Because knowing the
dictionary definition and a few platitudes and toss-offs about judgmentalism
being arrogance and so forth is just noise without thought.

I'll never finish thinking about the ramifications of the bases of different
people's judgments.

I have a baby book, which is actually a whole-life book. I used to put
things in there from time to time, and it's years between times. I was a
plenty-verbal kid, well read, graduated from college at the age of 20, and
was working as a teacher, as I had planned since I was six, at the age of 21.

Mid-decade, I pulled out my baby book. There was a page for me to write my
philosophy of life. I looked at that blank page blankly, and wondered what
it would look like, "a philosophy of life." It's not that I wasn't
thoughtful, and I had even "studied philosophy." So I left it blank.

Now that I'm in my 40's, I could write for pages.

In fact I do, almost every day. Not in that book, but at unschooling.com,
and for Home Education Magazine, and I was asked today to write something for
the premier issue of a new local homeschooling magazine.

But when I was 24 or 25, I didn't even know what a philosophy of life was.

It's not that I wasn't busy and doing what I thought was right and good.
It's not that I didn't have beliefs, or that I wasn't influencing other
people's lives even at that young age. It's just that I was philosophically
immature. And I was ahead of just about all my friends in awareness of the
bigger picture.

Am I judging others by that? The day I found I didn't have "a philosophy of
life," I started looking around to see who else did. There were young people
who had borrowed a persona, a pose, a look, a group, but nobody near my age
had any individual, calm understanding that I could perceive. I've never
stopped looking for that in people.

Sandra

Nanci Kuykendall

31 Jan 2002, at 4:54pm

>I know plenty, unfortunately, of people who force
>their 2-5 year olds to do things. They make them
>memorize the abc song, drill them on how to tie a
>shoe, 'teach' them to write, only play games with the
>hidden agenda of teaching something, buy and force
>curriculum on them....and on and on. Would you
>consider that 'unschooling' (I mean the philosophy of
>child-led, natural learning)? I don't. That is why

>consider it a lifestyle. With exception to hsers,
>every child I know above the age of 3 is in

preschool.

>Many hsers feel the need to teach their children at
>young ages also.

This has been my experience too. MOST people do not
lead a natural, game playing, child led life with
preschool kids. Maybe it was like that many years
ago, but it is not the norm now. Kindergarteners are
EXPECTED (there's that word again) to know certain
things when they begin school, this expected knowledge
varies by school/district. If they don't know these
things they may be HELD BACK from first grade on the
grounds that they are not yet prepared for 1st grade.
Come to think of it, I don't think this is such a new
penomenon. My sister was almost held back in
kindergarten for these reasons in connecticut, in
about 1960.

My neice in 1st grade, whom I see several times a
week, had her kindergarten class last year seperated
into different groups for different reading levels.
They didn't get snacks, or have naps, and they had
homework. This year she tells me she is the "smartest
girl in her class" because she is the best reader.

>...(snip)I am assuming you all still have something

>learn. I assume EVERYONE does. And if they do, why
>discard something based on a persons age or
>experience? That was my thinking.

I agree here as well. We all still have something to
learn, and everyone has something to teach, if we can
allow ourselves to hear it.

>I would never say prejudice is justified......yet
>sometimes we have to make judgments in situations.
>Kitrina

Life often requires us to make decisions based on our
experiences, and that requires making judgements about
things and situations. I try very hard to refrain
from including people in those judgements, or to be
generous when people are involved. People are not
constants. People surprise and mystify and are
endlessly capable of variation.

Nanci K.

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Fetteroll

31 Jan 2002, at 5:55pm

on 1/31/02 1:20 PM, Earth Witch at the_earth_witch@... wrote:

> I am not claiming that I won't change, grow,
> gain wisdom, etc. But that it has little to nothing
> to do with age and has to do with who I am, my
> personality, and my goals.

I don't know that it's clear that Sandra's saying that wisdom is
developmental, but it is. (Well, the potential to have it is. Actually
having it probably depends on exercising the brain with thinking ;-) 20 yos
and 30 yos aren't at the level of development that a 40 yo is or a 50 yo. I
*can* tell when I'm debating a 20 yo. The thinking *is* different. For
instance, it's less likely that a 20 yo than a 40 yo will grasp the concept
that stifling the speech of those we disagree with can't be done without
stifling our own freedom of speech. It isn't a matter of more experience but
brain changes that come with age, just as a 6 yo can't think the same as a
15 yo.

That's doesn't mean the 40 yo is better than the 20 yo. It does mean there
are quality differences, though.

> It could be that people are using the word
> judgment in different ways, causing some confusion.

Yes. Judgemental has take on the connotation of judging the rightness or
wrongness of something before understanding or experiencing -- which is
basically not using judgement at all! It's using prejudice and limited
information to come to a conclusion.

But to judge something is just the opposite. It means to use your experience
to come to a conclusion about something, to judge whether something is good
or bad, right or wrong, likely or not likely.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nancy Wooton

31 Jan 2002, at 9:47pm

on 1/31/02 2:23 PM, Sharon Rudd at bearspawprint@... wrote:

> "Age before beauty." What you say to someone younger
> than yourself who can't figure out who should go
> first.

If some young whippersnapper says "Age before beauty" to you, reply, as you
brazenly walk past...

"Pearls before swine."

Nancy

--
Judge not, lest ye be judged judgemental.
--Florence King

[email protected]

1 Feb 2002, at 6:22am

>>>>should never *judge* someone else. being judgemental (arrogant,

closed-minded, etc), using judgemental terms (right, wrong, etc), is a *huge*
barrier to communication, no matter how you slice it.<<<<

>>>>> yet sometimes we have to make judgments
> in situations. <<<<