Belinda

How have you handled grandparents that constantly insult you AND the
child about your choice to homeschool? My mother constantly puts down
my child to her face about how she needs to go to Public School because
she's "Stupid".
Belinda

marji

At 18:00 6/23/2008, you wrote:
>How have you handled grandparents that constantly insult you AND the
>child about your choice to homeschool? My mother constantly puts down
>my child to her face about how she needs to go to Public School because
>she's "Stupid".
>Belinda

Ewww. Thankfully, I have never had to "handle" someone like that,
but if I did, the way I'd handle it is with distance. That person
would lose the privilege of our company. I would not allow such a
damaging person, no matter who they are, any access to my child (or
to me, for that matter). I would tell them why they aren't seeing us
anymore, and I would be absolutely rigid about the conditions under
which they were to see us again. By my lights, nobody is worth that
kind of abuse for any reason.

You have my sympathy.

~Marji

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ginger and Jeff Sabo

Belinda,

Have you talked to her about this? That's the first step. Secondly, if she
doesn't 'hear' it, then I'd limit the time your child (and you) spend there.

The age of your child is important, too. If she is old enough to
understand, maybe make a joke about it on the way there and talk about the
happenings and how that can make anyone feel.

My thought is, we come into contact with people who are not respectful all
the time. It's life. Figuring out how to deal with it and not take it
personally is key.

Good luck!
--
In peace and love,
Ginger
Annie(18), Kai(9) and Kade(6)

http://twofreeboysplus3.blogspot.com/

LOVE has impact.

"It's not our differences that divide us. It is our inability to recognize,
accept and celebrate those differences." - Audre Lorde

http://www.savetherain.org/

favorite song...http://www.manitobamusic.com/play.php?vc=9
or is it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akevZTqMe-U


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-My thought is, we come into contact with people who are not
respectful all
the time. It's life. Figuring out how to deal with it and not take it
personally is key.-=-

If one's grandmother says "You are stupid," that's personal.

We come into contact with people who are not respectful, but we don't
invite them over or travel hours to line up to be abused.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 23, 2008, at 6:00 PM, Belinda wrote:

> How have you handled grandparents that constantly insult you AND the
> child about your choice to homeschool? My mother constantly puts down
> my child to her face about how she needs to go to Public School
> because
> she's "Stupid".

Why is your daughter coming in contact with your mother? Is she
dropping in? Are you going to visit her? Does she live with you?

There isn't a one size fits all answer to the question. People can
give practical suggestions about how to get the message across to
her, but it depends on the situation.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ginger and Jeff Sabo

I guess I'm confused somehow. It has been suggested that we are supposed to
stay in a marriage where we are disrespected but are able to drop someone in
our personal family of origin without fully trying to make ourselves
available for conversation and boundary setting. I find this disconcerting.

I know in my personal life I have parents who are disrespectful to me and my
kids and I did have to separate ourselves from that relationship because it
is still too damaging to all. Due to my past, I see this as more I need to
heal from and grow from...not avoid completely or sweep that under the rug.
It's still part of my 'baggage' that I don't want to give to my kids. This
doesn't mean I have to subject them to abuse, either. No abuse is ok.

I have also lived through a marriage that was completely one sided (not
mine)...I ended up separating and that ended up with me being a widow (his
personal choice). After a long time of conditioning a small child how to be
co-dependent. I have since then helped that same sweet girl through some of
the trauma and many therapy sessions later ($$$$$) she is a very level
headed young adult about to start life on her own. Now I have a partner
that respects me and loves me. This meant that I did a lot of journeying to
get here.

I guess what my main point is - there needs to be a safe place for our kids
to be emotionally and physically healthy. There also needs to be
conversations with the adults in our lives to see if we can't find a way to
have a more healthy relationship. If that isn't possible and all efforts
made, then yes, dump them. It shouldn't matter whether they have a piece of
paper with your signature on it (marriage cert.) or a piece of paper with
their signature on it (birth cert.).

Just further clarification of another point of view...


--
In peace and love,
Ginger
Annie(18), Kai(9) and Kade(6)

http://twofreeboysplus3.blogspot.com/

LOVE has impact.

"It's not our differences that divide us. It is our inability to recognize,
accept and celebrate those differences." - Audre Lorde

http://www.savetherain.org/

favorite song...http://www.manitobamusic.com/play.php?vc=9
or is it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akevZTqMe-U


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

swissarmy_wife

I haven't read all the responses yet. However, my very first thought
upon reading this was...

Please stop taking your child to see her grandmother (maybe until she
stops belittling her.)





--- In [email protected], "Belinda" <b.newbold@...> wrote:
>
> How have you handled grandparents that constantly insult you AND the
> child about your choice to homeschool? My mother constantly puts down
> my child to her face about how she needs to go to Public School because
> she's "Stupid".
> Belinda
>

[email protected]

**Why is your daughter coming in contact with your mother? Is she
dropping in? Are you going to visit her? Does she live with you?**

I feel 'obligated' to go see my mother at least every 2 weeks or so. Her other
children have already abandoned her because of her mental and emotional abuse.
I have stood by her hoping she would 'see the light' and stop acting like her
mother did, whom everyone hated. My mother has never stepped foot in my house.
She passes my house at least a couple of times a month and has never offered
to stop by. She lives about a 35 minute drive from me and my 8 yo daughter and
myself go to visit her. If we don't, then she thinks we're mad at her. If I
don't call her at least once a week she thinks I'm mad at her too - even
though she very rarely finds the time to call me. Only when she needs
something. I know, it doesn't sound like a very healthy relationship, but she
IS my mother! I don't want my daughter hurt anymore by my mother's mouth
though, so I've been thinking about writing her a letter and explaining how I
feel to her but I don't want her to get angry. I just want her to understand
that she's turned into HER mother, who was evil. Any suggestions on what to
put in this letter?
--
**Belinda**

[email protected]

It's not only the homeschooling that she insults her with. She also criticises
her weight, and she tends to stutter when she's upset so my mother criticises
that too. She constantly calls her a "Titty Baby" because my daughter doesn't
want to leave my side around her (for good reason, eh?) and doesn't want to
spend the night with her like her other granddaughter does (I wonder why???)
My sister-in-law also has a problem with the way she talks around her
daughter, and we've talked about getting together and talking to Mom about her
abuse, but we don't really think it will do any good. As long as my sister-in-
law is taking my niece to see her it's not going to get any better. We need to
join together and talk to her.

--
**Belinda**


---------------------- Original Message: ---------------------
From: "swissarmy_wife" <heatherbean@...>
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Insults from parents
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 01:59:45 +0000

> I haven't read all the responses yet. However, my very first thought
> upon reading this was...
>
> Please stop taking your child to see her grandmother (maybe until she
> stops belittling her.)
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "Belinda" <b.newbold@...> wrote:
> >
> > How have you handled grandparents that constantly insult you AND the
> > child about your choice to homeschool? My mother constantly puts down
> > my child to her face about how she needs to go to Public School because
> > she's "Stupid".
> > Belinda
> >
>
>
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-If I don't call her at least once a week she thinks I'm mad at her
too -=-

So what?

On one side of the scale you have your innocent daughter for whose
happiness you're responsible.
On the other side of the scale, a verbally abusive manipulative bully
is raining venom on you AND your daughter.

How is that a hard decision? You SHOULD be mad at her.

-=-I know, it doesn't sound like a very healthy relationship, but she
IS my mother! -=-

She's not acting like it. Or if that's the way she's acted for
however-many-years-you-are-old, and you're used to it, do NOT let
another person get used to that. You have a duty to protect your
daughter.

If your siblings have said "I'm done," maybe you should too. Can you
move a thousand miles away? That might be the way to go, for your
daughter's sake.

-=-I don't want my daughter hurt anymore by my mother's mouth
though, so I've been thinking about writing her a letter and
explaining how I
feel to her but I don't want her to get angry.-=-

What will she do if she gets angry?



Sandra








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-She constantly calls her a "Titty Baby"-=-

This concerns me over all the rest. "Constantly" suggests it's
happened at least three times.
Has it?

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Yes. She does it at least once per visit. I try telling her that my SIL and I
have different lifestyles. My SIL works two jobs to put her kids in Private
School and rarely spends any time with them. I, on the other hand, homeschool
mine and spend ALL my time with her. So my mother compares my daughter to my
niece. I keep trying to point out to her that my daughter knows sign language,
and other things that my niece isn't being taught, but that makes no
difference to her. My daughter even underwent an SAT this past year and is on
a 7th grade reading and vocabulary level and my Mom things the test was rigged
some way! BTW, my daughter is 8 years old.

--
**Belinda**


---------------------- Original Message: ---------------------
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Insults from parents
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 02:54:24 +0000

> -=-She constantly calls her a "Titty Baby"-=-
>
> This concerns me over all the rest. "Constantly" suggests it's
> happened at least three times.
> Has it?
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

graberamy

<<<If I
don't call her at least once a week she thinks I'm mad at her too - even
though she very rarely finds the time to call me.>>>

If you feel some emotional guilt and want to call her then go ahead.
But don't let that guilt continue to allow you to visit your mother
face to face with your daughter there. You have an obligation to
protect your daughter before you have an obligation to visit a grown
woman, even if that is your mother.

If you feel like you need to explain anything to your mom, just tell
her you won't subject your daughter to that kind of emotional abuse.
You really don't need to say anything else. If your sister in law
wants to let her daughter be with an abuser that's her choice. But
you don't need her approval to protect your daughter either!

Or if you both (you and your SIL) feel the same way and want to visit
your mom. Than one of you should stay with the girls while the other
one goes to visit. Take turns, then you'll only have to see your mom
once a month and your daughter won't have to be called names.:)

amy g
iowa

Sandra Dodd

-=-Or if you both (you and your SIL) feel the same way and want to visit
your mom. Than one of you should stay with the girls while the other
one goes to visit. Take turns, then you'll only have to see your mom
once a month and your daughter won't have to be called names.:)-=-

That's a great idea!



If you and your sister want to write a joint letter, maybe you could
make a list of the things she's said that were horrible and insulting
and abusive and say that if you ever bring one of the girls again
(if), she is not to say ANY of those things. They've all been said,
and heard (even though they shouldn't have been), and repeating them
could cause her not to see the girls anymore at all.

Maybe you could say you're sorry that she probably heard such things
when she was growing up, but that abuse needs to stop, not be passed on.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 23, 2008, at 10:19 PM, b.newbold@... wrote:

> As long as my sister-in-
> law is taking my niece to see her it's not going to get any better.

No, as long as your mother *chooses* to be abusive, she's not going
to get any better.

I suspect you're asking for a way to get her to stop doing abusing.
You can't. To change, a person needs to choose to be different. You
can't make her choose. (Though you can provide reasons why changing
is better than not changing.)

I suspect also you intend to model for your daughter how to put up
with obligations. But what you're *really* modeling is how to put up
with abuse out of a sense of duty. You're modeling that she should
allow other's emotions to manipulate her into doing what she feels is
wrong.

So if your daughter ends up in an abusive marriage, it will be okay
if she puts up with it? It's what you're modeling for her.

I think you need to apologize to your daughter. Tell her you thought
you were being a good daughter but you were being a really bad mommy.
That your first obligation is to keep her safe even if it means
keeping her safe from your own mom.

You have an opportunity to show your daughter how to stand firm in
her beliefs. Set boundaries with your mother. Tell your mother calmly
that as long as she continues the abuse, she won't see her
granddaughter. (And won't see you if you're strong enough to go that
far.)

Don't hold in your mind that you're trying to make your mother
change. You're allowing her to choose. Your visit is not a reward for
changing. Your not visiting is not a punishment for not changing.

If she agrees to change and you do visit (with or without your
daughter) and she starts in on the abuse, leave.

Again, not punishment. It's a boundary. You're saying "If you cross
this boundary I need to leave to protect myself and my daughter."

> If we don't, then she thinks we're mad at her. If I
> don't call her at least once a week she thinks I'm mad at her too
>

This is called emotional manipulation.

People's reactions are good feedback to help us interact better.
People can also *use* reactions to manipulate someone's behavior.
You're not obligated to appease emotions she's using to manipulate
you with.

At some point in her life she learned she could get people to do what
she wanted by making them feel guilty. But, really, she can't make
you feel guilty. You allow yourself to feel guilty and allow her to
manipulate you into doing what she wants.

Do you want to give your daughter the "gift" of feeling powerless to
others?

Model for her a *healthy* respect for others and for herself. Model
for her *healthy* relationships with others *and with herself*.

Joyce



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 23, 2008, at 9:16 PM, Ginger and Jeff Sabo wrote:

> I guess I'm confused somehow. It has been suggested that we are
> supposed to
> stay in a marriage where we are disrespected but are able to drop
> someone in
> our personal family of origin without fully trying to make ourselves
> available for conversation and boundary setting. I find this
> disconcerting.

No, no one is suggesting being disrespected. Though I agree some of
the discussion sounded like "do whatever the husband wants because
without a husband unschooling isn't possible."

There are *loads* of choices between good communication and do what
he wants. (Kelly Lovejoy can't say enough good things about
Retrouvaille ( http://www.retrouvaille.org/) *But* -- barring abuse
-- it's unrealistic to believe that dumping a difficult husband with
will make life easier. If he can't get unschooling while in a
marriage, it's highly unlikely he'll allow it after divorce! While
amicable divorces are possible, a woman should enter into a divorce
assuming she'll take on a whole new set of problems. A disagreeable
husband is highly unlikely to respond to divorce with "I'm out of
here. Do whatever you want with the kids."

That's not something to fear, but something to look at realistically.

The discussion veered off into appeasing the husband's fears because
the original poster sounded as though she was giving her husband
information about unschooling but it really didn't address his fears.
And after a while the fears came screaming out in the form of:

> Well, he told me last night that he firmly doesn't
> think we can continue this way, and something
> different needs to be done. He just doesn't believe
> that people can learn skills like reading, writing,
> math without daily structured practice. He thinks we
> are doing our kids a real disservice, and he insists
> that either I start incorporating that kind of thing,
> or he will enroll our oldest in school.
>

He's afraid. He's not going to get unafraid by a wife getting angry
or defensive or saying "Suck it up!" (Well, it worked for Ren, ;-)
but it's going to depend hugely on personalities! But as a general
rule, it will just devolve into a power struggle.)

But the wife shouldn't cringe and bow down to his fears.

There are other choices! Once choice can be to find ways for the days
to provide more feedback that learning is taking place until he grows
more comfortable with it. Baby steps.

Another can be discussion to get to the heart of his fears and take
them seriously. Again, that doesn't mean responding as though his
fears were truth, but do take them seriously and find ways to help
him get past them.

Joyce

Ed Wendell

Could you find a friend that your daughter could stay with/play with while you visit? If your daughter is playing with a friend at least she'd be having fun.

How does your mother respond to your hubby - does she lay off a bit? When my dad was not so nice (he was dying and could be a bit strong at times - but never insulted Zac - just that we'd try to do fun stuff with him and all he could do was complain because we did not take him home to live at our house or complain and bad mouth his other children) He was nicer to Ed - responded better to Ed - if Ed said "hush let's enjoy our time together" ;) Once Zac was trying to play some music on a lap harp for my dad - he had practiced a lot beforehand - picked out songs he thought my dad would enjoy, etc. My dad basically would not listen so we told him to hush - that his grandson was doing something special for him, had practiced for him, put a lot of effort into it, etc. When I tried to say something I got nasty feedback but then Ed spoke up and my dad got quiet.

Lisa W.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ed Wendell

This worked with my dad - all I had to do was stand up and start leaving and state
"If you're going to be nasty, I'm leaving. I like myself too much to let you treat me this way." He'd get nice real fast. My dad was not always this way though - just after he got really sick and had to go to a nursing home at age 65. I knew why he was cranky but that was no excuse to be nasty when his kids visited (and I visited at least once a week sometimes every other day - my brother visited the other days so someone visited every day for 2 years) - he was sugar sweet to all others.

Lisa W.




If she agrees to change and you do visit (with or without your
daughter) and she starts in on the abuse, leave.

.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sylvia Toyama

There also needs to be conversations with the adults in our lives to
see if we can't find a way to have a more healthy relationship. If
that isn't possible and all efforts made, then yes, dump them. It
shouldn't matter whether they have a piece of paper with your
signature on it (marriage cert.) or a piece of paper with their
signature on it (birth cert.).

****
I've broken off with most of my childhood family -- many I've just
lost touch with, but don't feel any need to re-connect with, others
are just toxic (my Mom and her sisters for example) and I'm happy to
be rid of.

The difference for me is that I can cut off grandparents with no risk
to our lifestyle at home. My parents have no legal right to tell me
how to raise or educate our kids. An ex-spouse, presumably the other
parent to any children involved, has the legal right to insist the
kids be sent to school, raised in a particular way and is guaranteed
unsupervised access to his/her own children. That's quite a big risk
to kids' well-being, IMO.

I left my first husband after years of abuse and moved 2,000 miles
away -- specifically to cut off my ex from our infant son. When I
went to court to get legal custody, I knew there was every risk I'd
have to share visitation with my ex, but I needed to establish
custody before I could get a divorce. Thankfully -- and lucky for
us -- my ex had no interest in seeing our son at that time, so I was
granted full custody.

I've long believed and said that it would have been better if my
parents had divorced sooner, because their marriage was always a
mess. Recently, I've come to see that I can't really know that -- my
sibs who were still home wish Mom had waited a few more years to
leave, because even tho we all admit our parents should never have
married, the divorce only made things worse for them. It was a bad
marriage, but would it have killed her to wait a few more years to
leave? The divorce was much uglier than the marriage had ever been -
we kids heard things about our own parents that we never needed to
know. Sadly, those tactics have continued on one side, even 25 yrs
later.

I know of one divorce where unschooling survives still -- only 2 yrs
later, so who knows -- but that's something. I know of another family
who had been unschoolers of several years, the divorce was a mess and
last I heard the husband was denouncing unschooling and trying to
force the kids into school, or at least school-at-home.

One thing I've observed over the years is that in a divorce things
get ugly fast. Even in a bad marriage, people behave themselves to
some extent - but once all hope is lost, all bets are off. That
apsect of it is never good for kids.

Sylvia

Sylvia Toyama

Yes. She does it at least once per visit. I try telling her that my
SIL and I have different lifestyles. My SIL works two jobs to put her
kids in Private School and rarely spends any time with them. I, on
the other hand, homeschool mine and spend ALL my time with her.

*****
IMO, you are giving your mom way too much access to your own child.
That woman is toxic.

My own mother (or as dh and I now call her, "the woman formerly known
as my Mom") had become increasingly toxic and verbally abusive to us
all in the last several months of 2006. I had always had what I
considered a good relationship with her. Looking back, I realize it
was not good. She is controlling and very bitter, she has a very
skewed ideal of love, especially motherly love. She's completely
conditional in her love for her children. I kept up my end of
things, without my kids along, for some time, going by alone to help
out with things she needed. I stopped having her visit our home,
because she stopped any pretense at being kind to my kids. Not just
my kids, she really doesn't like kids at all I suspect. Xmas of
2006, she called to say she 'needed a break' from her kids' lives.
We gave it to her. This past Feb, we all received a 12-page missive
from her detailing the myriad ways in which we've been 'her greatest
traumas' and that we're failure as both parents and people -- I guess
it was designed to prompt us to run back to her and make amends and
become her idea of 'good responsible parents and people.' My sis and
I immediately wrote her off. Sis didn't even reply -- I sent a
sincere, kind note (only because she lives in my town and isn't above
calling child services on me, so I figured I could be nice). Our
brother refused to read the letter and called her to make amends.
Yes, he's the crown price of the Kingdom of Denial. <g>

My Dad is the one I never really liked as a kid. He's still not a
friend, but we do have a relationship. He's a better grandfather
than he was a Dad. In some ways, he's an object lesson for my kids --
kinda of 'this is why we live such a different life.' My Mom could
be an object lesson I guess, but she's malignant where my Dad is
pretty benign, if strange. He's easier to manage, and much more
respectful of my boundaries than she is.

My point in all this is that I spent many years trying to win my
Mom's approval, to convince her I was right and worthy and a good
mother, a good person; to find some way to be myself and still be
loved by her for who I am. Yeah, not gonna happen. It sounds to me
like that's what you're doing. You're hoping that if you can just
explain why you do what you, show her how smart and wondeful your
daugher is, that she'll finally get you. She seems equally
determined to show you that you're wrong, and in the process, she's
willing to harm your daughter to show you who's right.

It's a contest you can't win, because you're an honorable person who
wants to be loved and respected. She's a controller who will only be
happy once things are done her way. And she doesn't care who gets
hurt.

It's also a contest you don't need to win. The time and energy you
put into your Mom would be much better spent with your daughter.
Your daughter doesn't need to see you being a long-suffering martyr
to know you are a good person.

Sylvia

Sandra Dodd

Sylvia wrote:
-=-She seems equally
determined to show you that you're wrong, and in the process, she's
willing to harm your daughter to show you who's right. -=-

I winced and took in my breath. That's strong, and scary, and true.
I flashed back to a few things my mom said and did, in crazed lash-
out mode. And my mom wasn't at all bad about interfering with my
life or my sister's as far as marriage and family went, because she
knew we could easily do better than she did (and that either of us
would verbally kick her ass, because she had no credit with us, all
debt).

-=-The time and energy you put into your Mom would be much better
spent with your daughter.-=-

Definitely.

Sometimes moms want all credit and no blame. "I gave you birth."
Well... if it was all downhill from there, it's not a favor.

In another context altogether, talking about how some people in the
SCA want credit for every good thing they've done without counting
damage they might've caused--they're surprised if anyone brings up
something five or ten years old when they caused problems that had to
be cleaned up by others. But they're bringing up things fifteen and
twenty years old to remind people how hard they've worked.

I was trying to liken it to a bank account where someone might only
want to look at the deposits he made without consideration of all the
withdrawals. The friend I was communicating with said they have a
saying to cover that where she lives:

Service rendered vs. chaos engendered.

Same with parents, neighbors, friends. In any relationship, people
need to make deposits (not in a bird-in-the-tree-above kind of way--
that's DEFINITELY a debit, as human dyads go).

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

***> I feel 'obligated' to go see my mother at least every 2 weeks or
so. Her other
> children have already abandoned her because of her mental and
emotional abuse.


***If we don't, then she thinks we're mad at her. If I
> don't call her at least once a week she thinks I'm mad at her too -
even
> though she very rarely finds the time to call me.

***Only when she needs
> something. I know, it doesn't sound like a very healthy relationship,
but she
> IS my mother!

***I don't want my daughter hurt anymore by my mother's mouth
> though, so I've been thinking about writing her a letter and
explaining how I
> feel to her but I don't want her to get angry.

My initial reaction based on those things above, is that YOU need to get
healing and closure to that yucky co-dependent cycle. You are
preforming exactly like someone who enables an abuser. It seems you are
aware of the abuse and the games, but that you don't know how to put
down your cards and walk away.

Just because someone is your mother or brother or grandpa doesn't make
you obligated at all. If you were still a kid, it would suck and you'd
feel helpless and powerless to get away, but the beauty of turning 18 is
that you can legally walk away from it. It sounds like the rest of your
family has done so. Are you on good terms with them? Have any of them
moved on and started healthy lives? If so, perhaps one of them would be
good to talk to.

Writing a letter might be a good idea. Write it and sit on it for a
week, then re-write it to make sure that there isn't anything mean and
hurtful said that is coming from the heat of the moment. Don't worry
about wether or not she gets angry. You have absolutely no control over
another's emotional response. It is the other person's choice as to
wether or not they become angry. Keep in mind that your intent is a
positive one, one of protecting your child, and preventing future ill
feelings for yourself, your intent shouldn't be one of preventing
someone else's anger. It's been my experience that viewing the positive
choice and holding it close helps guide my actions in regards to
intercommunication in less than ideal circumstances. It really does
help keep things positive and happy, wether or not the other person ever
turns around or not.

Sandra Dodd

-=-Don't worry about wether or not she gets angry. You have
absolutely no control over
another's emotional response.-=-

That sounds good (the second part,) but it's not true. If you know
something will crush a person's soul and you do it anyway, saying "I
have no control over another's emotional response" is a lame patch on
a gaping wound. And apparent from years of conditioning, this mom
has control over her daughter's emotional response.

Even if the daughter goes full-on into recovery from co-dependency
and whatever all elements of bad parenting there might've been, and
if she comes to understand the idea that she can control her own
emotional responses, that won't mean that she might not retain the
ability to crush her mom like a bug by knowing what to say.



If I consciously use my words to hurt someone because I know what
will hurt them and I'm good with words, then I WILL need to worry
about the outcome. I would worry because I'm trying to make people's
lives better and smoother and happier, and because I don't want to be
a bully.



What about this phrase spoken to the grandmother who's saying 'titty
baby' to her granddaughter at every opportunity:

-=-Don't worry about wether or not she gets angry. You have
absolutely no control over
another's emotional response.-=-



Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

missalexmissalex

> If she agrees to change and you do visit (with or without your
> daughter) and she starts in on the abuse, leave.

I agree. It sounds like you are just going to her house to see her.
Just in case, I wanted to say, do NOT take her out to eat or anywhere
else if you are having this sort of problem.

When my mildly senile grandfather was grieving my grandmother, he
sometimes felt strongly that I had ruined his life (by taking the car
keys away after he lost his license, etc.) and would really set into
me. I stopped eating out with him for a while so I wouldn't get stuck
somewhere being berated. I told my husband, who was really mad about
this, that he didn't have to come visiting with me any more. I also had
to turn around and walk back out of the house once when grandpa started
yelling at me when I was supposed to be driving him to a doctor's
appointment. It's so hard to know where to draw the line, especially in
a situation like mine with someone bereft who is literally losing his
mind. But like an OP said, my DH pointed out that grandpa never talked
to HIM like that, so I stopped just putting up with it, and that did
make a huge difference. He was nicer to me to start with, so I don't
mean to say you have the same situation, but I wish you luck.

Alex
Mom to Katya, 1 yr

[email protected]

~~I agree. It sounds like you are just going to her house to see her.~~

Yes, we go to her, she won't come to us. We haven't been there in about two
weeks now, and I really dread going. None of my family 'likes' going to see
her, but they do out of 'obligation'. My 19 yo daughter has told her off at
least once and she mellowed out a bit, but not towards my 8 yo daughter. My 16
yo niece hates going over there, but again, she does out of obligation. If we
don't go then she talks bad about us to the ones that do go! It's difficult
for me to go see her without my 8 yo, but I will make an effort to do so
within the next 2 weeks so that I can talk to her by myself (and see if that
does any good). Thanks for all of the advice. I'm not very good with words,
and I get flustered very easily and lose my track, so this is going to be hard.

--
**Belinda**

Jenny C

> If I consciously use my words to hurt someone because I know what
> will hurt them and I'm good with words, then I WILL need to worry
> about the outcome. I would worry because I'm trying to make people's
> lives better and smoother and happier, and because I don't want to be
> a bully.
>
>
>
> What about this phrase spoken to the grandmother who's saying 'titty
> baby' to her granddaughter at every opportunity:
>
> -=-Don't worry about wether or not she gets angry. You have
> absolutely no control over
> another's emotional response.-=-


I'm thinking it is about intent. If you are trying to be honest and
genuinely kind but firm about setting boundaries, then the other's
response isn't something you have control over if they choose to be
angry about it. When my older daughter is confronted with mean
behavior, she chooses wether or not to let it affect her and wether or
not she will put up with it happening again. I've learned a lot from
her in this regard.

Clearly, name calling is thoughtless and mean. Still, a person can
choose wether or not to let it affect them. I don't let others be
mean to my kids without saying anything in their defense, and if that
hurts the other person's feelings then too bad, they shouldn't be mean
to my kids.

Frankly, I tend to be more blunt than not. I'm tactful but blunt about
how I feel. I tend to attract others that are similarly blunt yet
honest and tactful. I like honesty, and I'd rather have others be
honest with me than be talking behind my back. I have a hard time
reading people that tend to be overly sensitive. My husband tends to be
more on the sensitive side and it really has caused me to temper my own
blunt honesty.

I do know what you mean about knowingly causing someone else pain.

[email protected]

~~"The best thing you could do for yourself is to
work through to a life without your mom."~~

What about the Bible? I don't know what anyone's religion is on here, and
don't really want to get into that, but most people believe the Bible.
In Proverbs 23:22, Solomon exhorts his son to "harken to your Father who begot
you and do not despise your mother when she is old." In the story of Job, we
find that Elihu the younger of Job's friends waited until the older men had
spoken to Job. He also treated his communication to Job with admiration and
respect, since Job was his elder. In Exodus 20:12 we find the commandment - to
honor your -father and mother, that your days may be long in the land which
the Lord your God gives you. In Mark 7:10-12, we find Jesus saying, "He who
speaks evil of his father and mother, let him surely die." He goes on to say
that the Pharisees had made void the law of God by their disgraceful treatment
of the elderly.
I know it doesn't say anywhere in there that we are to accept abuse. My
mother HATED her own mother, and for good reason. Yet, when she got old and
needed help my mother was there for her and took care of her for about 15
years until she died this April. She did it out of duty, not out of love. She
hated doing it, but refused to put her in a nursing home. I never quite
understood that. I wouldn't take my mother into my own home with her being
abusive, but she did. Now she's turned into her own mother with her hateful
ways. I hope I never get like her. Maybe I can stop the cycle with me and my
daughters!
--
**Belinda**



---------------------- Original Message: ---------------------
From: k <katherand@...>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Insults from parents
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 01:31:14 +0000

> I lost a friend whose mother was hateful and abusive, and I'm very familiar
> with the vacillation I see here... the anger on the one hand and the undue
> sympathy and feeling of duty toward the mother. Somehow or other, get a
> strong sense of yourself (which will be easier without *any* contact with
> the venom you're getting). The best thing you could do for yourself is to
> work through to a life without your mom.
>
> I could relate a little to what my friend was going through because I cut my
> parents out for a while (more than a decade) due to religious differences so
> bad that I felt stifled and anxious all the time. Any contact with them in
> those years would set me back very quickly. After close to 15 years apart,
> I had gained enough on my own feet that I was finally able to meet family
> without reverting to old patterns of thought and behavior. I'm actually
> pretty strong in my own beliefs now and don't feel that I amount to nothing,
> like I used to. But it took a long time and lots of supportive people
> around me who seemed to believe in me, for reasons I didn't understand at
> the time.
>
> People really close to you can have a huge effect. Take care of yourself
> and your daughter will do the same with you. Your life will be much
> better.
>
> My friend wouldn't quit calling her mother or taking her mother's calls.
> She's no longer with us. Don't let that happen to you.
>
> ~Katherine
>
>
>
> On 6/23/08, b.newbold@... <b.newbold@...> wrote:
> >
> > It's not only the homeschooling that she insults her with. She also
> > criticises
> > her weight, and she tends to stutter when she's upset so my mother
> > criticises
> > that too. She constantly calls her a "Titty Baby" because my daughter
> > doesn't
> > want to leave my side around her (for good reason, eh?) and doesn't want to
> >
> > spend the night with her like her other granddaughter does (I wonder
> > why???)
> > My sister-in-law also has a problem with the way she talks around her
> > daughter, and we've talked about getting together and talking to Mom about
> > her
> > abuse, but we don't really think it will do any good. As long as my
> > sister-in-
> > law is taking my niece to see her it's not going to get any better. We need
> > to
> > join together and talk to her.
> >
> > --
> > **Belinda**
> >
> > ---------------------- Original Message: ---------------------
> > From: "swissarmy_wife" <heatherbean@... <heatherbean%40gmail.com>>
> > To: [email protected] <AlwaysLearning%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Insults from parents
> > Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 01:59:45 +0000
> >
> > > I haven't read all the responses yet. However, my very first thought
> > > upon reading this was...
> > >
> > > Please stop taking your child to see her grandmother (maybe until she
> > > stops belittling her.)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In [email protected] <AlwaysLearning%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "Belinda" <b.newbold@...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > How have you handled grandparents that constantly insult you AND the
> > > > child about your choice to homeschool? My mother constantly puts down
> > > > my child to her face about how she needs to go to Public School because
> >
> > > > she's "Stupid".
> > > > Belinda
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-. If we
don't go then she talks bad about us to the ones that do go! It's
difficult
for me to go see her without my 8 yo, but I will make an effort to do so
within the next 2 weeks so that I can talk to her by myself (and see
if that
does any good).-=-

Putting it in writing would be better.

You could pull quotes from things you've told us here already.
You've pretty much already written it.

You could post your draft here and we could help you, if you want.
I'm sure there are some lurkers who might need to write such a letter
themselves someday (or now).

-=- Thanks for all of the advice. I'm not very good with words,
and I get flustered very easily and lose my track, so this is going
to be hard.-=-

Even more reason to do it in writing. You could write FIRST, before
you ever go back, mail it and tell her in the letter that if she's
unwilling to change, you're unwilling to spend $4 a gallon gas money
to deliver yourself to be abused again.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

**"You could post your draft here and we could help you, if you want.
I'm sure there are some lurkers who might need to write such a letter
themselves someday (or now)."**

Thanks. I think I'll do that. And then what? Wait for her to call me, or just
drop in and see how she acts? I'll get this draft within the week hopefully.
My 8 yo dd is in a theater production this Thursday, Friday, Saturday and
Sunday and that's taking up a lot of our time right now, but I'll get it done
as soon as I can!

--
**Belinda**

k

I'm sorry about my heavy handed post. I think it was more confiding of me
than necessary and probably not appropriate for me to say about your
situation because maybe it doesn't apply to you. And I think it makes me
look weird. I grew up with a lot of silly stuff that went on and was said.
My post is somewhat a product of the kind of behavior I grew up with and
have "normalized" ... behavior I don't want in my life. I feel that knowing
my personal crap is not particularly helpful to anyone.

Have you noticed that was a father telling his son to listen to him? Just
because a story appears in the Bible doesn't mean every quote in it falls
from above. What about the story when Job's wife tells him to curse God and
die. That's not a suggestion to agree to, is it? Unschooling is not a
familiar way of life for many people who come into contact with it and since
the Bible is a controversial book even among believers, as a means of
discourse it can serve to confuse matters more than ever. I don't refer to
for unschooling because the Bible was not about unschooling. Its purpose is
something else entirely.

Also you can respect people and still not be obliged to invite them over or
go see them or call them. Those things are optional.

In order to change, a break with the tradition of family "norms" must occur
if some of them aren't what you want to carry forward into the next
generations. Otherwise, it's easy to end up being all muddy in your head
about yourself, "respecting" the whole lot, and becoming like the very ones
who have given you pain and discomfort so needlessly. Out of respect. If a
behavior is wrong or maybe even evil, don't respect it.

One of the most helpful books to me is The Book of Learning and Forgetting
by Frank Smith. Its basic message is to join groups of people you want to
emulate so that you can learn from them the skills you want to have. If you
have a need to speak in public well... you might join a toastmasters group.
If you want to learn to play guitar, you might find players who will let you
in on their jamming sessions. Same with parenting or living differently.

~Katherine




On 6/24/08, b.newbold@... <b.newbold@...> wrote:
>
> ~~"The best thing you could do for yourself is to
> work through to a life without your mom."~~
>
> What about the Bible? I don't know what anyone's religion is on here, and
> don't really want to get into that, but most people believe the Bible.
> In Proverbs 23:22, Solomon exhorts his son to "harken to your Father who
> begot
> you and do not despise your mother when she is old." In the story of Job,
> we
> find that Elihu the younger of Job's friends waited until the older men had
>
> spoken to Job. He also treated his communication to Job with admiration and
>
> respect, since Job was his elder. In Exodus 20:12 we find the commandment -
> to
> honor your -father and mother, that your days may be long in the land which
>
> the Lord your God gives you. In Mark 7:10-12, we find Jesus saying, "He who
>
> speaks evil of his father and mother, let him surely die." He goes on to
> say
> that the Pharisees had made void the law of God by their disgraceful
> treatment
> of the elderly.
> I know it doesn't say anywhere in there that we are to accept abuse. My
> mother HATED her own mother, and for good reason. Yet, when she got old and
>
> needed help my mother was there for her and took care of her for about 15
> years until she died this April. She did it out of duty, not out of love.
> She
> hated doing it, but refused to put her in a nursing home. I never quite
> understood that. I wouldn't take my mother into my own home with her being
> abusive, but she did. Now she's turned into her own mother with her hateful
>
> ways. I hope I never get like her. Maybe I can stop the cycle with me and
> my
> daughters!
> --
> **Belinda**
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]