Jennifer

Today we were all at a friend's house for a couple
hours. My two daughters are seven and five, and their
friend is six.

When it was time for us to leave, the friend's family
was getting ready to go run some errands, and her mom
asked her to tidy up her room a little (where all the
girls had been playing earlier.)

The friend asked my daughters if they would help her
tidy up. My seven year old said yes and went in the
room with her. My five year old simply said no and
continued playing.

I didn't interfere.

But I'm wondering ... should I have done anything?

For example, tell her that she should help also, as
they were also using the stuff together?

Should I have maybe said to her, "Here, let's you and
I go help them together?"

Should I have told her it's not nice to go to someone
else's house and use their stuff, but then not help
put it away?

Or was it not a big deal that she didn't help?

Thanks
Jenny



http://beanmommyandthethreebeans.blogspot.com/

swissarmy_wife

--- In [email protected], Jennifer <beanmommy2@...> wrote:

> Should I have maybe said to her, "Here, let's you and
> I go help them together?"

I would have asked her if she would help pick up with me. If the
answer was still no, I probably would have gone and picked up myself.

I'm curious what others have to say too.

[email protected]

The first 3 answers that you gave would have been appropriate in my opinion,
but the last one - do nothing - is not. But, that's just my opinion. If it
were MY house and the visitor did not help tidy up the room they would not be
invited back.

--
**Belinda**


---------------------- Original Message: ---------------------
From: Jennifer <beanmommy2@...>
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Helping the other kids pick up
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 20:39:44 +0000

> Today we were all at a friend's house for a couple
> hours. My two daughters are seven and five, and their
> friend is six.
>
> When it was time for us to leave, the friend's family
> was getting ready to go run some errands, and her mom
> asked her to tidy up her room a little (where all the
> girls had been playing earlier.)
>
> The friend asked my daughters if they would help her
> tidy up. My seven year old said yes and went in the
> room with her. My five year old simply said no and
> continued playing.
>
> I didn't interfere.
>
> But I'm wondering ... should I have done anything?
>
> For example, tell her that she should help also, as
> they were also using the stuff together?
>
> Should I have maybe said to her, "Here, let's you and
> I go help them together?"
>
> Should I have told her it's not nice to go to someone
> else's house and use their stuff, but then not help
> put it away?
>
> Or was it not a big deal that she didn't help?
>
> Thanks
> Jenny
>
>
>
> http://beanmommyandthethreebeans.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
>

Jason & Stephanie

--- In [email protected], Jennifer <beanmommy2@...> wrote:

> Should I have maybe said to her, "Here, let's you and
> I go help them together?"

******Did anyone say anything about her not helping? Out of my kids a few are eager to help and a few are reluctant and she is only 5, my 5 yr old wouldn't help.

I would have offered to do it together and if they really didn't want to I would help pick up. Most times I just pick up things that my child takes out at someone's house without saying anything. It depends on where we are also, different friends have different rules and expectations.

Stephanie in TN

Kieran 12, Brennan 10, Cassandra 8, Jared 5

http://www.learningthroughliving-stephanie.blogspot.com

"When you take the free will out of education, that turns it into schooling." -- John Taylor Gatto



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Clarissa Fetrow

I ask my five year old what part she wants to put away, because asking
her that seems to help her see it as manageable. If she doesn't want
to help I usually don't press the issue (though I used to before
reading unschooling lists).

I clean up in her place. I try to remember to ask the other mom what
she would most like help with, nearish the end, but before the end of
the visit. Yesterday the other mom was desperately glad that I picked
up about 40 pieces of play food. She was SO grateful. I know the
feeling. :)

Clarissa

Sandra Dodd

-=-> I didn't interfere.
>
> But I'm wondering ... should I have done anything?
> -=-

If I'd been there, I would've offered to go and help myself.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

cathyandgarth

--- In [email protected], b.newbold@... wrote:
> but the last one - do nothing - is not. But, that's just my opinion.
If it
> were MY house and the visitor did not help tidy up the room they
would not be
> invited back.

I would never *expect* an adult friend to help clean up before they
left ... I don't make my DH's bluegrass buddies do the dishes they made
before they leave after a pick, if I had a grown-ups' game night I
wouldn't make everyone put the games back where they belonged.

Also, at that young of an age, 5 and 7, transitions and goodbyes are
hard enough without adding the stress of cleanup -- in my mind doing
nothing would never lead me to "not invite them back".

I am pretty insistent that my kids' friends (and their parents) do NOT
have to help with clean up at our house. If a parent insists and just
starts, I let them do what they want and usually jump in to help with
the organizing, but if they want their own child to do cleanup I
usually ask them to leave it -- the kids and I, or just I, can always
do it later when they aren't trying to squeeze the last moments of
playtime out of a playdate.

I also, in general, don't pick up before friends come to play, that way
I can just let the parents know that it looked that way when the kids
arrived. They usually relax about it then. I have noticed that many
of our close friends have begun to use a similar tactic ... less and
less often does it seem like *cleanup* is a necessary part saying
goodbye to a friend.

If they aren't specifically asked, I will ask my children if there is
anything they could/would like to help put away, but it is really an
honest question, not a disguised command. And I will ask the
host/hostess if there is anything I can do. I just think it is polite
to at least offer.

If I am at someone else's house and my children _are_ asked to help
with the cleanup, I encourage them to help out but I leave it up to
them how they participate, AND I always jump in and work with them or
whoever is doing the cleanup. If it seems like the host/hostess feels
like one of my kids isn't *doing their part* I may just pick something
up and hand it to the child in question, saying "Do you know where this
goes? Can you put it back?" Or "Can you find out where this goes?"

One time my DD asked if she could have her friend help clean up before
she left, I told her it was up to her and her friend how they wanted to
leave things ... They must have worked something out, I heard them
discussing it and then her room looked a little cleaner than it had
about an hour earlier.

For me, personally, I just really hated it when parents would say to
their children, "Well if you don't help clean up we won't be able to
come back and play again!" So, I took some preventative measures ...
no kid will ever have to hear that in my house.

Long-winded ... sorry.

Cathy

Melissa Dietrick

-=-
I didn't interfere.

But I'm wondering ... should I have done anything?
-=-
>
> If I'd been there, I would've offered to go and help myself.
>

I always set the mood and start helping myself--
for most children sometimes big messes (actually any mess) can be
overwhelming, if I am there with them it seems so much easier, as
usually we have a good time ( aiming at the boxes to toss stuff in etc.)

melissa
in italy

Sandra Dodd

-=-I would never *expect* an adult friend to help clean up before they
left ... I don't make my DH's bluegrass buddies do the dishes they made
before they leave after a pick, if I had a grown-ups' game night I
wouldn't make everyone put the games back where they belonged. -=-

OH! Excellent point. I withdraw all my other commentary.

-=-Also, at that young of an age, 5 and 7, transitions and goodbyes
are hard enough without adding the stress of cleanup -- in my mind
doing nothing would never lead me to "not invite them back". -=-

I worried more about wanting them to come back when my kids were
little. Having other kids to play with is hugely valuable.

Other moms used to tell their kids to clean up, and I'd usually say
"No, that's fine--my kids aren't through playing with that stuff," or
"No, it's okay, let them run around the yard until it's time to go"
or something.

Sometimes if all the kids just DID it (picking up all the toy dishes
or whatever) I would thank them like they had done the coolest thing
ever, but I never told or asked them (or my kids) to pick it all up.
It can seem like a punishment, or like you never wanted them to get
that stuff out in the first place.

This is a really good approach, and it helps kids learn how to help:

-=-If it seems like the host/hostess feels like one of my kids isn't
*doing their part* I may just pick something up and hand it to the
child in question, saying "Do you know where this goes? Can you put
it back?" Or "Can you find out where this goes?"-=-

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

Back to the original question:


-=-I didn't interfere.-=-

How would it be "interfering" to advise your own child?



-=-But I'm wondering ... should I have done anything?

For example, tell her that she should help also, as
they were also using the stuff together?

Should I have maybe said to her, "Here, let's you and
I go help them together?"

Should I have told her it's not nice to go to someone
else's house and use their stuff, but then not help
put it away?

Or was it not a big deal that she didn't help?-=-



I could say it wasn't a big deal, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't
talk to her about it. At least, the next time she's gong to be at
that house coach her in advance that they have a policy of picking
things up and she should volunteer to help without needing to be asked.

I would definitely talk to her about different people's houses having
expectations (some you take your shoes off; some you talk quietly
inside; some you don't play on the bed; some, no drinks on carpetted
areas, etc.)



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

harmonyhogan

> If it
> > were MY house and the visitor did not help tidy up the room they
> would not be
> > invited back.
>
> I would never *expect* an adult friend to help clean up before
they
> left ...


I have had people that make such a mess that I don't invite them
back. It is not worth it to me to watch their very defiant child
for them when they are visiting and clean up the huge mess and
replace broken toys. If we want to visit with this particular
family we go to their house or the park. Usually when they came to
our house it was to watch football with DH and they did not pay any
attention to the children.

If an adult friend came over to play a game or something they have
always offered to clean up and there is only one game out. If we
are going to play a different game the first one gets picked up
first. That is the difference with adults and kids. The adults
usually only get out one game at a time and the kids get tons of
stuff out and make a huge mess.

If kids came to play with my kids in their rooms I remind my kids
beforhand that they can either clean up the mess by themselves or
ask the friend and let the friend know the rules they have for their
room. This has always worked well. Only once has another kid not
respected them and I my son was upset and I asked the kid to either
be respectful of my sons stuff or stay in the playroom with the
other kids (it was during a party) He apologized to my son and it
hasn't happened again.

I think it is good to talk to kids about being helpful and
respectful of other peoples things and houses. When my kids were
younger I would tell them before we went somewhere that it would be
nice of us to clean up any messes we make and try to follow rules
that other people have at their homes. Then they knew what to expect
and they never had a problem with it. Now they just offer to clean
up on their own. They are 9 and 11, I haven't asked them to clean
anything up for at least 4 years, they just do it when they know
it's almost time to go.
Harmony

Sandra Dodd

-=-When my kids were
younger I would tell them before we went somewhere that it would be
nice of us to clean up any messes we make and try to follow rules
that other people have at their homes. -=-

With my kids, too, they always knew that the expectations concerning
their behavior depends where we're going. Some stores are rowdier
than others; some are quiet. Some restaurants are still and dark,
and others have ball-crawls. People act differently at and after
funerals than at and after weddings. Different houses have
different rules.



Sometimes I worry that there are unschooling parents telling their
kids (or thinking it without even overtly expressing it) that they
can act however they want wherever they are.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

cathyandgarth

--- In [email protected], "harmonyhogan" <harmony@...>
wrote:
> It is not worth it to me to watch their very defiant child
> for them when they are visiting and clean up the huge mess and
> replace broken toys. If we want to visit with this particular
> family we go to their house or the park.

We had a friend who was, what I jokingly called, a *dumper*. He
would go through the toys dumping everything out, including pulling
all the books off the shelf. And it was almost as if he was clumsy
or didn't know his own strength, toys would just suffer under his
grip, he didn't _want_ to break toys. After the first couple of
times I just came up a plan: reduce the amount of stuff he had access
to. Basically I would take almost every toy bin, and especially the
ones that were a real pain to seperate from other stuff (like
playmobil and puzzles) and put them in the guest bedroom and lock the
door. They weren't *off limits*, my kids knew where they were and I
could always get something out ... but for this particular child it
reduced everyone's stress. He could play the way he wanted to, and
neither I nor his mother had to feel so much upset at the clean up
process. It worked so well that I began to do it when we had large
toddler parties ... ten 4 year olds can get out a lot of toys, AND
they are usually perfectly happy with whatever is provided.

If my own child were like this, and I am pretty sure that as a parent
you would know if this was how your child was, I think calling ahead
and making a request or at least giving a heads-up would be extremely
courteous. But, in my experience, he was the only child of the many,
many kids that have been to our house to play, who seemed to play
that way.

In the case of the one child whose parents don't seem to take
responsibility for his actions at your home, I think the park is a
great solution! But if you have to be at your home, maybe you can
limit the stuff he has access to as well.

> I think it is good to talk to kids about being helpful and
> respectful of other peoples things and houses. When my kids were
> younger I would tell them before we went somewhere that it would be
> nice of us to clean up any messes we make and try to follow rules
> that other people have at their homes.

I totally agree with this ... I think preparing your kids for what
may happen is key as well as reminding them about helpfulness and
respectfulness. But I am always open to the fact that when the time
comes to leave they may be upset enough that clean up is going to be
up to me. Of course my oldest (8) is still younger than your
youngest, so as time progresses so too will the way goodbyes and
transitions occur.

Cathy

Sandra Dodd

-=-He
would go through the toys dumping everything out, including pulling
all the books off the shelf. And it was almost as if he was clumsy
or didn't know his own strength, toys would just suffer under his
grip, he didn't _want_ to break toys.-=-

We had a couple years ago who did the pulling everything off the
shelves thing. My guess then (and I still figure, now) was that he
couldn't reach anything at his house. If kids never get to touch
stuff, how will they know how it works?



Maybe your friend broke toys because at home he hadn't had many, or
his parents weren't paying much attention to him when he played, to
help him learn how to be.

My kids still have toys they had when they were babies.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jason & Stephanie

-=-I would never *expect* an adult friend to help clean up before they
left ... I don't make my DH's bluegrass buddies do the dishes they made
before they leave after a pick, if I had a grown-ups' game night I
wouldn't make everyone put the games back where they belonged. -=-

*****Very good point! I don't ask others to clean up my house before they leave either. The question was about being at someone else's house. In my case it depends on who it is as to whether we *need* to pick up or not.

Stephanie in TN

Kieran 12, Brennan 10, Cassandra 8, Jared 5

http://www.learningthroughliving-stephanie.blogspot.com

"When you take the free will out of education, that turns it into schooling." -- John Taylor Gatto

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jason & Stephanie

-=-When my kids were
younger I would tell them before we went somewhere that it would be
nice of us to clean up any messes we make and try to follow rules
that other people have at their homes. -=-

With my kids, too, they always knew that the expectations concerning
their behavior depends where we're going. Some stores are rowdier
than others; some are quiet. Some restaurants are still and dark,
and others have ball-crawls. People act differently at and after
funerals than at and after weddings. Different houses have
different rules.

***************I have always done this too, we can't expect them to know what it's like everywhere. We don't go places that they can't handle either.

Stephanie in TN

Kieran 12, Brennan 10, Cassandra 8, Jared 5

http://www.learningthroughliving-stephanie.blogspot.com

"When you take the free will out of education, that turns it into schooling." -- John Taylor Gatto

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

> The adults
> usually only get out one game at a time and the kids get tons of
> stuff out and make a huge mess.


I had to do a lot of rethinking about "messes". When there are toys and
things scattered about the house, it's easy for my ordered brain to say
"MESS, I must pick up." , but it isn't the way my kids see the way they
have their things in the house. They don't see MESS, they see stuff
that is easy to access now that it's been dumped out of it's box and
onto the floor along with the toy cars, the barbies, the wooden blocks,
and the monopoly money. There is something they are DOing with all the
stuff.

AND, it doesn't change when they get older, my oldest (14) has the
bathroom completely set up in such a way that all of her things are out
and easy to access. Sometimes I go in there to throw it all in her
basket if we have company coming over, but mostly I try very hard to
pretend that it's not there so that I don't feel a compulsion to mess
with it! (no pun intended...)

> If kids came to play with my kids in their rooms I remind my kids
> beforhand that they can either clean up the mess by themselves or
> ask the friend and let the friend know the rules they have for their
> room.

But why must it always end with tidy? Rooms have doors that can be
closed if a mom doesn't want to see a room that has no view of the
floor. When my oldest daughter was little, I did what you are
suggesting, I had her and her guests clean up stuff. I didn't think it
was a big deal, but guess what my daughter's least favorite memory is
from that time? Yep, me, making her and her guests clean up. So,
somewhere along the way I stopped doing that, but the memory will always
be there, even though I've apologized for doing that, and she helps me
to remember not to do it to her little sister!

> I think it is good to talk to kids about being helpful and
> respectful of other peoples things and houses. When my kids were
> younger I would tell them before we went somewhere that it would be
> nice of us to clean up any messes we make and try to follow rules
> that other people have at their homes.

We always ask our host if they'd like us to help pick up. Most of the
time people say "no" and sometimes they say "oh yes, please, and
thanks". If our host was asking her own children to pick up with their
guests already there, which is kind of tacky, we'd offer to help and if
one of my kids didn't want to, I'd do it for them.

Jenny C

>
> We had a friend who was, what I jokingly called, a *dumper*. He
> would go through the toys dumping everything out, including pulling
> all the books off the shelf. And it was almost as if he was clumsy
> or didn't know his own strength, toys would just suffer under his
> grip, he didn't _want_ to break toys.

It's fascinating to me how different kids play with toys. My older
daughter had a very organized system that I set up for her toys. It
worked for her, she always knew where things were and she wasn't likely
to mix and match toys so much. My youngest daughter is more of a free
for all kind of player, where most certainly the legos work best with
the baby dolls and tiny animal figures (but of course they do?!). The
organizational toy system of seperating things out only kind of works
for her. She's more the REALLY big toy box throw everything in it, kind
of kid. That's been hard for me to get past. I like to know that
little janie baby doll has both of her shoes the next time you want to
play with her, but my daughter really doesn't care, so I work hard to
let it go.

She doesn't intentionally break toys either, but she sometimes plays
with them so intensely that they break.

Sandra Dodd

Last winter we had a get-together here every Wednesday with eight to
a dozen SCA people, to talk history or philosophy or literature--
various topics. I would make food. Sometimes one of them would
start taking all the plates into the other room and putting the food
away. I appreciated it as a gesture, and sometimes when they left
the place was nearly clean. Sometimes I would rather they'd sit and
talk because they were distracting me or I was afraid one of them
would miss something. But they're young and energetic (20's, early
30's most of them) and I understand finding an excuse to get up and
move.

That came to mind as I was thinking about adults offering to help.

Sandra

mary

--- In [email protected], "Jenny C" <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
>
>
> But why must it always end with tidy? Rooms have doors that can be
> closed if a mom doesn't want to see a room that has no view of the
> floor. When my oldest daughter was little, I did what you are
> suggesting, I had her and her guests clean up stuff. I didn't think it
> was a big deal, but guess what my daughter's least favorite memory is
> from that time? Yep, me, making her and her guests clean up. So,
> somewhere along the way I stopped doing that, but the memory will always
> be there, even though I've apologized for doing that, and she helps me
> to remember not to do it to her little sister!
>

I totally agree and I'm sure my oldest would say the same thing about
memories of having to clean up!

I want my kids to feel free to explore and create and not be stunted
by the little (or big ) thought in the back of their head that when it
is through that they will have to clean up and so they just decide
they don't want to do *whatever* because it will be too much work
because of clean up.


If I'm at someone else's house I offer to clean up and ask my kids if
they'd like to help. Sometimes they do and when they don't I will
just do it-as a courtesy to the family, b/c they often do the same at
our house(I don't ask they just start and often I ask them to leave
it-I'd rather do it when they leave so we can all just enjoy the time
together). Remembering, too that some families like to have all of
their stuff out and don't want it picked up<g>. Those are some of the
best houses to play in!


mary

mary

--- In [email protected], "cathyandgarth"
<familialewis@...> wrote:
>
> I would never *expect* an adult friend to help clean up before they
> left ... I don't make my DH's bluegrass buddies do the dishes they made
> before they leave after a pick, if I had a grown-ups' game night I
> wouldn't make everyone put the games back where they belonged.
>
>

Exactly.

Along the same line but, of a slightly different thread I really
prefer that when people, kids, whomever visit they not clean up. I
want everyone to enjoy the limited time we have together and don't
want anyone to spend time cleaning up when they could be sitting and
relaxing(knowing that some people need the space from socializing and
doing something solitary like cleaning up in the middle of a party
will re-energize them-that's something different).

I invite people over to have a good time, not to clean up, no matter
what the mess. Before I invite I calculate the amount of mess in and
just deal with it when it's over. Life is short. Who is going to say
"I wish I'd cleaned more" at the end of it(I think that is an Erma
Bombeck quote). Or "I wish I'd made my kids clean more".

mary