problems with child-led learning
Jenny C
I hear the phrase "child-led" or "child-directed" a lot in the
context of unschooling, either by non-unschoolers trying to describe
unschooling or by unschoolers trying to describe unschooling to those
that know nothing about it.
The main issue that I have with those terms is that it leaves the
parent out of the equation. I've never used it for that reason, and
also because what we do at our house looks nothing like what those
phrases imply.
I very much lead my kids. As my older daughter has gotten older,
she's done more and more of her own leading, but I still do a lot of
initiating of things. Actually as I'm writing this, I'm aware of the
fact that the word "lead" is somewhat not the right word. I
think "guide" might be a better word all around. I don't guide by
compulsion, but more like a guidance counselor would do it, listen
and watch and observe and offer direction and help as needed.
I also have issues with "radical" unschooling too. We either
unschool or we don't. Unschooling is extremely radical for most
people already. I also don't buy into the idea that any parent can
unschool curriculum and not extend it farther into other areas of
life and have unschooling work effectively (and I think this is what
some mean when they say they unschool but not radically). My own
experience says that it can't be done without seriously damaging the
parent/child relationship and trust issues that really make
unschooling work as awesomely as it does.
Unschooling really seems more about relationships all around. Which
is mostly why "child-led" or "child-directed" is so problematic. I
don't know if John Holt ever intended unschooling to be what I've
come to know it as, but he certainly planted the seeds of change in
the way we can raise our kids without forcible teaching.
context of unschooling, either by non-unschoolers trying to describe
unschooling or by unschoolers trying to describe unschooling to those
that know nothing about it.
The main issue that I have with those terms is that it leaves the
parent out of the equation. I've never used it for that reason, and
also because what we do at our house looks nothing like what those
phrases imply.
I very much lead my kids. As my older daughter has gotten older,
she's done more and more of her own leading, but I still do a lot of
initiating of things. Actually as I'm writing this, I'm aware of the
fact that the word "lead" is somewhat not the right word. I
think "guide" might be a better word all around. I don't guide by
compulsion, but more like a guidance counselor would do it, listen
and watch and observe and offer direction and help as needed.
I also have issues with "radical" unschooling too. We either
unschool or we don't. Unschooling is extremely radical for most
people already. I also don't buy into the idea that any parent can
unschool curriculum and not extend it farther into other areas of
life and have unschooling work effectively (and I think this is what
some mean when they say they unschool but not radically). My own
experience says that it can't be done without seriously damaging the
parent/child relationship and trust issues that really make
unschooling work as awesomely as it does.
Unschooling really seems more about relationships all around. Which
is mostly why "child-led" or "child-directed" is so problematic. I
don't know if John Holt ever intended unschooling to be what I've
come to know it as, but he certainly planted the seeds of change in
the way we can raise our kids without forcible teaching.
[email protected]
I'm not sure exactly why you think child-led or child-directed leaves the parent out of the equation. If the child chooses his/her own explorations than that is the beginning (not that it Always in every circumstance has to be), thus the child-led and then the guiding from the parent if needed can come into play.
Laura
Laura
>From: Jenny C <jenstarc4@...>
>Date: 2008/06/14 Sat PM 06:44:30 CDT
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [AlwaysLearning] problems with child-led learning
>
>I hear the phrase "child-led" or "child-directed" a lot in the
>context of unschooling, either by non-unschoolers trying to describe
>unschooling or by unschoolers trying to describe unschooling to those
>that know nothing about it.
>
>The main issue that I have with those terms is that it leaves the
>parent out of the equation. I've never used it for that reason, and
>also because what we do at our house looks nothing like what those
>phrases imply.
>
>
Jason & Stephanie
I'm not sure exactly why you think child-led or child-directed leaves the parent out of the equation. If the child chooses his/her own explorations than that is the beginning (not that it Always in every circumstance has to be), thus the child-led and then the guiding from the parent if needed can come into play.
Laura
****I don't see it as child led or parent led I see it as a partnership, we are learning together.
Stephanie in TN
Kieran 12, Brennan 10, Cassandra 8, Jared 5
http://www.learningthroughliving-stephanie.blogspot.com
"When you take the free will out of education, that turns it into schooling." -- John Taylor Gatto
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Laura
****I don't see it as child led or parent led I see it as a partnership, we are learning together.
Stephanie in TN
Kieran 12, Brennan 10, Cassandra 8, Jared 5
http://www.learningthroughliving-stephanie.blogspot.com
"When you take the free will out of education, that turns it into schooling." -- John Taylor Gatto
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I hear the phrase "child-led" or "child-directed" a lot in the
context of unschooling, either by non-unschoolers trying to describe
unschooling or by unschoolers trying to describe unschooling to those
that know nothing about it.-=-
I agree it's a problem.
-=-I very much lead my kids. As my older daughter has gotten older,
she's done more and more of her own leading, but I still do a lot of
initiating of things. Actually as I'm writing this, I'm aware of the
fact that the word "lead" is somewhat not the right word. I
think "guide" might be a better word all around. I don't guide by
compulsion, but more like a guidance counselor would do it, listen
and watch and observe and offer direction and help as needed.-=-
At our house we all have tons of influence over the other people in
lots of ways--food, music, movies, clothes, projects, getting along
with others...
-=-I also have issues with "radical" unschooling too. We either
unschool or we don't. Unschooling is extremely radical for most
people already. I also don't buy into the idea that any parent can
unschool curriculum and not extend it farther into other areas of
life and have unschooling work effectively (and I think this is what
some mean when they say they unschool but not radically). -=-
I agree, but many people do it until it doesn't work anymore, and
then say unschooling doesn't work.
-=-My own experience says that it can't be done without seriously
damaging the parent/child relationship and trust issues that really
make unschooling work as awesomely as it does.-=-
I'm not sure about this, but I think I'm starting to see evidence
(some of things that have already happened in some places) of
families in which the mom isn't wholly honest with the dad. There's
some family damage, even if the mom/child relationship is okay, and
the dad/child relationship is okay, but it's because the mom is being
devious to some degree. I might not be seeing clearly. It's like
shapes in the fog (socially speaking), because I hear indicators and
talk among kids, but no mom-accounts (yet).
-=-I don't know if John Holt ever intended unschooling to be what
I've come to know it as, but he certainly planted the seeds of change
in the way we can raise our kids without forcible teaching.-=-
He didn't make up homeschooling or alternative education, but he was
observing and writing about them as they were happening. When he was
in Colorado and northern New Mexico (not living in Santa Fe, I think,
but visiting the alternative school and some of the people there, and
I know one person about five years older than I am who went to the
Rocky Mountain School the first two years of it or so, maybe not when
John Holt was there), he saw alternative education working, and
people just not sending their kids to school (or not to "real schools").
The first writing I saw of his was the combination of those two
things--saying "here's how kids learn, and school's methods aren't
working; it's possible to keep your kids home. Those who use John
Holt loosely like to say ANY homeschooling (curriculum or not) was
"unschooling," but except for Calvert, I don't think there were any
in the 70's. By the 80's when the fundamentalist Christians thought
they had invented homeschooling and started creating Christian school-
in-a-box, some of them got ideas and support from Growing Without
Schooling, but it doesn't seem any credit was passed on.
Anyway...
I agree with you but I don't know what to do but to keep talking
about it, and keep doing what we do cheerfully, and sharing experiences!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
context of unschooling, either by non-unschoolers trying to describe
unschooling or by unschoolers trying to describe unschooling to those
that know nothing about it.-=-
I agree it's a problem.
-=-I very much lead my kids. As my older daughter has gotten older,
she's done more and more of her own leading, but I still do a lot of
initiating of things. Actually as I'm writing this, I'm aware of the
fact that the word "lead" is somewhat not the right word. I
think "guide" might be a better word all around. I don't guide by
compulsion, but more like a guidance counselor would do it, listen
and watch and observe and offer direction and help as needed.-=-
At our house we all have tons of influence over the other people in
lots of ways--food, music, movies, clothes, projects, getting along
with others...
-=-I also have issues with "radical" unschooling too. We either
unschool or we don't. Unschooling is extremely radical for most
people already. I also don't buy into the idea that any parent can
unschool curriculum and not extend it farther into other areas of
life and have unschooling work effectively (and I think this is what
some mean when they say they unschool but not radically). -=-
I agree, but many people do it until it doesn't work anymore, and
then say unschooling doesn't work.
-=-My own experience says that it can't be done without seriously
damaging the parent/child relationship and trust issues that really
make unschooling work as awesomely as it does.-=-
I'm not sure about this, but I think I'm starting to see evidence
(some of things that have already happened in some places) of
families in which the mom isn't wholly honest with the dad. There's
some family damage, even if the mom/child relationship is okay, and
the dad/child relationship is okay, but it's because the mom is being
devious to some degree. I might not be seeing clearly. It's like
shapes in the fog (socially speaking), because I hear indicators and
talk among kids, but no mom-accounts (yet).
-=-I don't know if John Holt ever intended unschooling to be what
I've come to know it as, but he certainly planted the seeds of change
in the way we can raise our kids without forcible teaching.-=-
He didn't make up homeschooling or alternative education, but he was
observing and writing about them as they were happening. When he was
in Colorado and northern New Mexico (not living in Santa Fe, I think,
but visiting the alternative school and some of the people there, and
I know one person about five years older than I am who went to the
Rocky Mountain School the first two years of it or so, maybe not when
John Holt was there), he saw alternative education working, and
people just not sending their kids to school (or not to "real schools").
The first writing I saw of his was the combination of those two
things--saying "here's how kids learn, and school's methods aren't
working; it's possible to keep your kids home. Those who use John
Holt loosely like to say ANY homeschooling (curriculum or not) was
"unschooling," but except for Calvert, I don't think there were any
in the 70's. By the 80's when the fundamentalist Christians thought
they had invented homeschooling and started creating Christian school-
in-a-box, some of them got ideas and support from Growing Without
Schooling, but it doesn't seem any credit was passed on.
Anyway...
I agree with you but I don't know what to do but to keep talking
about it, and keep doing what we do cheerfully, and sharing experiences!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm not sure exactly why you think child-led or child-directed
leaves the parent out of the equation-=-
The terms are misleading for those outside of unschooling, and lazy-
making for those inside.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
leaves the parent out of the equation-=-
The terms are misleading for those outside of unschooling, and lazy-
making for those inside.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jun 14, 2008, at 4:44 PM, Jenny C wrote:
schooling, no tests, no grades, no assignments, no lessons and who
supported her kids' interests and provided a stimulating environment?
What if they still had parent-imposed bed times or mandatory chores or
limits on what and how much tv the kids could choose to watch?
I know a LOT of unschoolers who are not what we call radical
unschoolers. Most of us unschooled first, then, over time, became more
and more radical.
I like the "radical" term okay - look at the dictionary definition - I
especially like the very first one and last one:
radical |ˈradikəl|
adjective
1 (esp. of change or action) relating to or affecting the fundamental
nature of something; far-reaching or thorough : a radical overhaul of
the existing regulatory framework.
• forming an inherent or fundamental part of the nature of someone or
something : the assumption of radical differences between the mental
attributes of literate and nonliterate peoples.
• (of surgery or medical treatment) thorough and intended to be
completely curative.
• characterized by departure from tradition; innovative or
progressive: a radical approach to electoral reform.
2 advocating thorough or complete political or social reform;
representing or supporting an extreme section of a political party : a
radical American activist.
• (of a measure or policy) following or based on such principles.
3 of or relating to the root of something, in particular
• Mathematics of the root of a number or quantity.
• denoting or relating to the roots of a word.
• denoting the semantic or functional class of a Chinese character.
• Music belonging to the root of a chord.
• Botany of, or springing direct from, the root or stem base of a
plant.
4 [usu. as exclam. ] informal very good; excellent : Okay, then. Seven
o'clock. Radical!
---Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I also have issues with "radical" unschooling too. We eitherWhat would you call someone who did absolutely no curriculum, no
> unschool or we don't. Unschooling is extremely radical for most
> people already. I also don't buy into the idea that any parent can
> unschool curriculum and not extend it farther into other areas of
> life and have unschooling work effectively (and I think this is what
> some mean when they say they unschool but not radically)
schooling, no tests, no grades, no assignments, no lessons and who
supported her kids' interests and provided a stimulating environment?
What if they still had parent-imposed bed times or mandatory chores or
limits on what and how much tv the kids could choose to watch?
I know a LOT of unschoolers who are not what we call radical
unschoolers. Most of us unschooled first, then, over time, became more
and more radical.
I like the "radical" term okay - look at the dictionary definition - I
especially like the very first one and last one:
radical |ˈradikəl|
adjective
1 (esp. of change or action) relating to or affecting the fundamental
nature of something; far-reaching or thorough : a radical overhaul of
the existing regulatory framework.
• forming an inherent or fundamental part of the nature of someone or
something : the assumption of radical differences between the mental
attributes of literate and nonliterate peoples.
• (of surgery or medical treatment) thorough and intended to be
completely curative.
• characterized by departure from tradition; innovative or
progressive: a radical approach to electoral reform.
2 advocating thorough or complete political or social reform;
representing or supporting an extreme section of a political party : a
radical American activist.
• (of a measure or policy) following or based on such principles.
3 of or relating to the root of something, in particular
• Mathematics of the root of a number or quantity.
• denoting or relating to the roots of a word.
• denoting the semantic or functional class of a Chinese character.
• Music belonging to the root of a chord.
• Botany of, or springing direct from, the root or stem base of a
plant.
4 [usu. as exclam. ] informal very good; excellent : Okay, then. Seven
o'clock. Radical!
---Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
> -=-I hear the phrase "child-led" or "child-directed" a lot in theIt is a problem. I try to correct it every single time I see it (as
> context of unschooling, either by non-unschoolers trying to describe
> unschooling or by unschoolers trying to describe unschooling to those
> that know nothing about it.-=-
annoying as that may be <G>).
One problem is that people think, "Oh, child led. I'll just sit here
and wait for my child to lead." Then, the child isn't introduced to
anything interesting, gets bored, doesn't do much of anything, the
parent says, "Unschooling doesn't work, MY child needs structure."
Another problem is that people outside the unschooling world think it
means that we're all waiting for our kids to pull their algebra book
off the shelf and say, "Mom, teach me algebra."
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
I'm wondering what you mean by not wholly honest? Pretending to be
schooling when they're not? Would the kids in on the deception? I'm
trying to picture how this would work.
-pam
schooling when they're not? Would the kids in on the deception? I'm
trying to picture how this would work.
-pam
On Jun 14, 2008, at 8:19 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
> I'm not sure about this, but I think I'm starting to see evidence
> (some of things that have already happened in some places) of
> families in which the mom isn't wholly honest with the dad. There's
> some family damage, even if the mom/child relationship is okay, and
> the dad/child relationship is okay, but it's because the mom is being
> devious to some degree. I might not be seeing clearly. It's like
> shapes in the fog (socially speaking), because I hear indicators and
> talk among kids, but no mom-accounts (yet).
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ginger and Jeff Sabo
I think they are lables...which I don't like to use. I also am causious
about making things black and white, since my version may not be anothers...
On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 9:34 PM, Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
wrote:
In peace and love,
Ginger
Annie(18), Kai(9) and Kade(6)
http://twofreeboysplus3.blogspot.com/
LOVE has impact.
"It's not our differences that divide us. It is our inability to recognize,
accept and celebrate those differences." - Audre Lorde
http://www.savetherain.org/
favorite song...http://www.manitobamusic.com/play.php?vc=9
or is it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akevZTqMe-U
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
about making things black and white, since my version may not be anothers...
On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 9:34 PM, Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
wrote:
>--
> On Jun 14, 2008, at 4:44 PM, Jenny C wrote:
>
> > I also have issues with "radical" unschooling too. We either
> > unschool or we don't. Unschooling is extremely radical for most
> > people already. I also don't buy into the idea that any parent can
> > unschool curriculum and not extend it farther into other areas of
> > life and have unschooling work effectively (and I think this is what
> > some mean when they say they unschool but not radically)
>
> What would you call someone who did absolutely no curriculum, no
> schooling, no tests, no grades, no assignments, no lessons and who
> supported her kids' interests and provided a stimulating environment?
> What if they still had parent-imposed bed times or mandatory chores or
> limits on what and how much tv the kids could choose to watch?
>
> I know a LOT of unschoolers who are not what we call radical
> unschoolers. Most of us unschooled first, then, over time, became more
> and more radical.
>
> I like the "radical" term okay - look at the dictionary definition - I
> especially like the very first one and last one:
> radical |ˈradikəl|
> adjective
> 1 (esp. of change or action) relating to or affecting the fundamental
> nature of something; far-reaching or thorough : a radical overhaul of
> the existing regulatory framework.
> • forming an inherent or fundamental part of the nature of someone or
> something : the assumption of radical differences between the mental
> attributes of literate and nonliterate peoples.
> • (of surgery or medical treatment) thorough and intended to be
> completely curative.
> • characterized by departure from tradition; innovative or
> progressive: a radical approach to electoral reform.
> 2 advocating thorough or complete political or social reform;
> representing or supporting an extreme section of a political party : a
> radical American activist.
> • (of a measure or policy) following or based on such principles.
> 3 of or relating to the root of something, in particular
> • Mathematics of the root of a number or quantity.
> • denoting or relating to the roots of a word.
> • denoting the semantic or functional class of a Chinese character.
> • Music belonging to the root of a chord.
> • Botany of, or springing direct from, the root or stem base of a
> plant.
> 4 [usu. as exclam. ] informal very good; excellent : Okay, then. Seven
> o'clock. Radical!
>
> ---Pam
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
In peace and love,
Ginger
Annie(18), Kai(9) and Kade(6)
http://twofreeboysplus3.blogspot.com/
LOVE has impact.
"It's not our differences that divide us. It is our inability to recognize,
accept and celebrate those differences." - Audre Lorde
http://www.savetherain.org/
favorite song...http://www.manitobamusic.com/play.php?vc=9
or is it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akevZTqMe-U
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Melissa Dietrick
--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
or just not coming clear to dh as to why what and how they are
learning as they are (unschooling)?
melissa
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>yes I am wondering too...
> I'm wondering what you mean by not wholly honest? Pretending to be
> schooling when they're not? Would the kids in on the deception? I'm
> trying to picture how this would work.
or just not coming clear to dh as to why what and how they are
learning as they are (unschooling)?
melissa
Melissa Dietrick
thank you Jenny for bringing this up:
I am trying to define unschooling in italian and this discription is
one I am trying to avoid.
I also see unschooling as instrinsically interrelated with those
around us...and as my child learns im learning too.
Nor can I envision unschooling without the "radical" part, having come
to unschooling from the conscious, respectful, partnership parenting
route: I lead, but I dont trample on others wills (or at least my path
has been learning Not to)..
Unschooling (when I found out we could homeschool here) is the only
sort of homeschooling I would find compatable with our parenting
approach.
Maybe because of our approach, our schooled kids never lost their
thirst for learning *outside* of school...but this may have to do with
the 4/5 hour school days as well (well no, we never push homework down
their throats either, so they usually put their priorities on *their*
interests.)
I am trying to incorporate the definition of unschooling with the
parenting aspect already there...or am I totally off to do so? As it
is, the people I am talking to are already AP oriented, so it does
make sense...
what do you all think?
melissa
in italy
mamma of 7
lucia 20yr, lidia 17yr, matteo 13yr, raffaele 10yr,
elena shanti 7yr, giacomo leo 4yr and gioele 2y
"There is a Place beyond Rightness and Wrongness -- I'll meet you there."
Rumi
http://www.larimeloom.etsy.com
http://www.flauto.tk
http://www.attachmentparenting.eu
I am trying to define unschooling in italian and this discription is
one I am trying to avoid.
I also see unschooling as instrinsically interrelated with those
around us...and as my child learns im learning too.
Nor can I envision unschooling without the "radical" part, having come
to unschooling from the conscious, respectful, partnership parenting
route: I lead, but I dont trample on others wills (or at least my path
has been learning Not to)..
Unschooling (when I found out we could homeschool here) is the only
sort of homeschooling I would find compatable with our parenting
approach.
Maybe because of our approach, our schooled kids never lost their
thirst for learning *outside* of school...but this may have to do with
the 4/5 hour school days as well (well no, we never push homework down
their throats either, so they usually put their priorities on *their*
interests.)
I am trying to incorporate the definition of unschooling with the
parenting aspect already there...or am I totally off to do so? As it
is, the people I am talking to are already AP oriented, so it does
make sense...
what do you all think?
melissa
in italy
mamma of 7
lucia 20yr, lidia 17yr, matteo 13yr, raffaele 10yr,
elena shanti 7yr, giacomo leo 4yr and gioele 2y
"There is a Place beyond Rightness and Wrongness -- I'll meet you there."
Rumi
http://www.larimeloom.etsy.com
http://www.flauto.tk
http://www.attachmentparenting.eu
--- In [email protected], "Jenny C" <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
>
> I hear the phrase "child-led" or "child-directed" a lot in the
> context of unschooling, either by non-unschoolers trying to describe
> unschooling or by unschoolers trying to describe unschooling to those
> that know nothing about it.
>
> The main issue that I have with those terms is that it leaves the
> parent out of the equation. I've never used it for that reason, and
> also because what we do at our house looks nothing like what those
> phrases imply.
>
> I very much lead my kids.
...
> Unschooling really seems more about relationships all around. Which
> is mostly why "child-led" or "child-directed" is so problematic. I
> don't know if John Holt ever intended unschooling to be what I've
> come to know it as, but he certainly planted the seeds of change in
> the way we can raise our kids without forcible teaching.
>
Joylyn
I don't think I lead my children.
Sometimes they lead me. Sometimes I may lead, or at least suggest. Mostly I model, but for the most part, that's just part of it... For instance, I go to a museum because I want to go, I model to them, and have since they were young, how I behave in a museum, and we end up enjoying it together...
I share my enthusiasm for things--such as reading, learning, watching star trek... and I share their enthusiasm for things. For instance, Janene and I share Star Trek... she and I watch it together, we are currently trying to watch ALL the movies, in order. We watched Voyager, all seasons, 3x through, now we are on the other series... Alexx is into laughing at us watching Star Trek. Janene and I went to the Star Trek Experience they had in Long Beach, CA recently... Alexx had no desire to go. Alexx and I share Buffy. Janene, she's not into that at all.
The missions started out being Alexx's idea, and we kinda just went along... hard for a 6 year old to go to missions alone. Now, it's a family thing. we all go, and we only have 6 more until we've seen them all--in California. There are some on Baja California--maybe we'll go there next.
And I wouldn't even say that we have a child-centered household. we sometimes do things only because I want to do them--the exhibit on Pompeii is an example of this. I wanted to do that, the kids just came along. But they do so with enthusiasm, or at least with a positive attitude. It's not like I'm making them, nor is it like they are making me do things they want to do. We just go into it together....
I respect what they want to do and go into it with a positive mindset--and often find that I enjoy it a great deal. They do the same.
Anyway, I don't feel as thought I lead, as the adult, nor do I feel that they lead--as in child led learning. I kinda feel like we are all just going through this together.
I don't mind Radical Unschooling as a way to describe what we do. I like the word "radical." Liked it in high school when we'd say "wow, man, that's radical" and I like it now to describe how we live. It's as good of term as any. We don't do very many things in the way most of society does them. We are different--we are radical.
Joylyn
Sometimes they lead me. Sometimes I may lead, or at least suggest. Mostly I model, but for the most part, that's just part of it... For instance, I go to a museum because I want to go, I model to them, and have since they were young, how I behave in a museum, and we end up enjoying it together...
I share my enthusiasm for things--such as reading, learning, watching star trek... and I share their enthusiasm for things. For instance, Janene and I share Star Trek... she and I watch it together, we are currently trying to watch ALL the movies, in order. We watched Voyager, all seasons, 3x through, now we are on the other series... Alexx is into laughing at us watching Star Trek. Janene and I went to the Star Trek Experience they had in Long Beach, CA recently... Alexx had no desire to go. Alexx and I share Buffy. Janene, she's not into that at all.
The missions started out being Alexx's idea, and we kinda just went along... hard for a 6 year old to go to missions alone. Now, it's a family thing. we all go, and we only have 6 more until we've seen them all--in California. There are some on Baja California--maybe we'll go there next.
And I wouldn't even say that we have a child-centered household. we sometimes do things only because I want to do them--the exhibit on Pompeii is an example of this. I wanted to do that, the kids just came along. But they do so with enthusiasm, or at least with a positive attitude. It's not like I'm making them, nor is it like they are making me do things they want to do. We just go into it together....
I respect what they want to do and go into it with a positive mindset--and often find that I enjoy it a great deal. They do the same.
Anyway, I don't feel as thought I lead, as the adult, nor do I feel that they lead--as in child led learning. I kinda feel like we are all just going through this together.
I don't mind Radical Unschooling as a way to describe what we do. I like the word "radical." Liked it in high school when we'd say "wow, man, that's radical" and I like it now to describe how we live. It's as good of term as any. We don't do very many things in the way most of society does them. We are different--we are radical.
Joylyn
Melissa Dietrick
Hi joylyn, I really like how you described this
I wrote that I lead, but then I left out the part I meant to write:
that my children lead too.
maybe the word \lead\ is misleading (lol)...it is more like a
partnership, but not even that either?
sometimes a child will take initiative towards an interest: raff my
fourth (10yo) is totally into UFOs and ancient ruins (aztec mayan
egyptian) and this has been going on for a few years now, but recently
it has sort of infected everybody, and we all go of on explorations
alone to share later or all together (like on the computer, or library)
so it is infectuous initiatives? I dont know how to express the
dynamic for someone mainstream I mean. But yes, I support my
children, I support my husbands interests, they support mine, and we
sometimes start getting interested in the various activities as a whole...
Im thinking now my passion for sewing weaving and things threads and
colours...Ive always messed about with this stuff: dh will always pick
up beautiful cloths, yarns, threads, bricabrac as well as tools when
ever he happens apn them in thrift stores etc...
all of my children at some point or other start to join in, and for
some (like my first daughter Lucia who will be 21 in July) weaving
sewing and handywork has become her trade ... I work with her, but the
business for now is in her hands. And when we both wanted to learn to
spin this past winter, Matteo ds3 14yo saw us watching some videos on
youtube of drop spindle spinning, and he disappeared and came back
with a functional one of a kind drop spindle, which Lucia promptly
learned to spin on and started selling and weaving with.
And now dh lorenzo is always looking for spinning wheels (he's brought
home two so far since january) and matteo fixes them up so they run
smoothly...and now everyone else in the house is learning to spin too.
like wise for music: we are musicians and music just come in and out
of the home...this will get to long to describe but the exchange and
support is so life enriching, I cannot imagine living in any other way.
about the radical part: in italy there are *many* (and when I say
that, I mean MANY) different political parties...one is "radical" and
of course it is far far left.
Part of me would like to avoid hooking up a learning experience with
radical political nuances: it may scare people away?
what do you think?
could that be a problem?
melissa
in italy
mamma of 7
I wrote that I lead, but then I left out the part I meant to write:
that my children lead too.
maybe the word \lead\ is misleading (lol)...it is more like a
partnership, but not even that either?
sometimes a child will take initiative towards an interest: raff my
fourth (10yo) is totally into UFOs and ancient ruins (aztec mayan
egyptian) and this has been going on for a few years now, but recently
it has sort of infected everybody, and we all go of on explorations
alone to share later or all together (like on the computer, or library)
so it is infectuous initiatives? I dont know how to express the
dynamic for someone mainstream I mean. But yes, I support my
children, I support my husbands interests, they support mine, and we
sometimes start getting interested in the various activities as a whole...
Im thinking now my passion for sewing weaving and things threads and
colours...Ive always messed about with this stuff: dh will always pick
up beautiful cloths, yarns, threads, bricabrac as well as tools when
ever he happens apn them in thrift stores etc...
all of my children at some point or other start to join in, and for
some (like my first daughter Lucia who will be 21 in July) weaving
sewing and handywork has become her trade ... I work with her, but the
business for now is in her hands. And when we both wanted to learn to
spin this past winter, Matteo ds3 14yo saw us watching some videos on
youtube of drop spindle spinning, and he disappeared and came back
with a functional one of a kind drop spindle, which Lucia promptly
learned to spin on and started selling and weaving with.
And now dh lorenzo is always looking for spinning wheels (he's brought
home two so far since january) and matteo fixes them up so they run
smoothly...and now everyone else in the house is learning to spin too.
like wise for music: we are musicians and music just come in and out
of the home...this will get to long to describe but the exchange and
support is so life enriching, I cannot imagine living in any other way.
about the radical part: in italy there are *many* (and when I say
that, I mean MANY) different political parties...one is "radical" and
of course it is far far left.
Part of me would like to avoid hooking up a learning experience with
radical political nuances: it may scare people away?
what do you think?
could that be a problem?
melissa
in italy
mamma of 7
--- In [email protected], Joylyn <joylyn1@...> wrote:
>
> I don't think I lead my children.
>
> Sometimes they lead me. Sometimes I may lead, or at least suggest.
Mostly I model, but for the most part, that's just part of it... For
instance, I go to a museum because I want to go, I model to them, and
have since they were young, how I behave in a museum, and we end up
enjoying it together...
>
> I share my enthusiasm for things--such as reading, learning,
watching star trek... and I share their enthusiasm for things. For
instance,
...
> And I wouldn't even say that we have a child-centered household. we
sometimes do things only because I want to do them--the exhibit on
Pompeii is an example of this. I wanted to do that, the kids just
came along. But they do so with enthusiasm, or at least with a
positive attitude. It's not like I'm making them, nor is it like they
are making me do things they want to do. We just go into it together....
>
> I respect what they want to do and go into it with a positive
mindset--and often find that I enjoy it a great deal. They do the same.
>
> Anyway, I don't feel as thought I lead, as the adult, nor do I feel
that they lead--as in child led learning. I kinda feel like we are
all just going through this together.
>
> I don't mind Radical Unschooling as a way to describe what we do. I
like the word "radical." Liked it in high school when we'd say "wow,
man, that's radical" and I like it now to describe how we live. It's
as good of term as any. We don't do very many things in the way most
of society does them. We are different--we are radical.
>
> Joylyn
>
swissarmy_wife
--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
Thanks for sharing the dictionary definitions. I'm not sure I've ever
looked that up!
I agree. I also like the term radical. In my local group of
homeschoolers, I would say that I am the only "radical unschooler".
One is on her way. And the rest just sort of say they are
unschooling, yet spend their days worrying about structure and
curriculum and being behind in learning. They unschool academically
(I'm aware that doesn't right :-), but seem to miss out on the
parenting aspect of it.
The term Radical Unschooling sort of separates us. Which could be bad
or good depending how you look at it. But sometimes, their version of
unschooling, is not what I would like to portray.
-Heather
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
> I like the "radical" term okay -**********
Thanks for sharing the dictionary definitions. I'm not sure I've ever
looked that up!
I agree. I also like the term radical. In my local group of
homeschoolers, I would say that I am the only "radical unschooler".
One is on her way. And the rest just sort of say they are
unschooling, yet spend their days worrying about structure and
curriculum and being behind in learning. They unschool academically
(I'm aware that doesn't right :-), but seem to miss out on the
parenting aspect of it.
The term Radical Unschooling sort of separates us. Which could be bad
or good depending how you look at it. But sometimes, their version of
unschooling, is not what I would like to portray.
-Heather
Sandra Dodd
Because this was in the paragraph right after watching all Star Trek
shows and movies, look:
-=-The missions started out being Alexx's idea, and we kinda just
went along... hard for a 6 year old to go to missions alone. Now,
it's a family thing. we all go, and we only have 6 more until we've
seen them all...-=-
I got all that far before I figured out you must not be talking about
Start Trek missions at all. <bwg>
-=-I respect what they want to do and go into it with a positive
mindset--and often find that I enjoy it a great deal. They do the
same.-=-
Yesterday I was merrily in the midst of several online projects,
thinking how comfortable the house felt, and how quiet, and Holly
came and asked me if I wanted to go to the mall and a movie.
I didn't. I said not really. Then I realized what a good
opportunity I might miss, and that the internet will be here later,
but the chance to go places with Holly won't always be here. So I
said no, I did want to go.
Her computer is down and I hadn't thought of that, so she used mine
to look of a movie. We went to see Forgetting Sarah Marshall at the
dollar theater ($2 each, on weekends; sometimes $1 or 50 cents), and
then went to Claires in the mall and got a three-for-the-price-of-two
deal on earrings. Both of us offered to do more for the other's
sake, both of us asked "do you want to get food?" and both of us were
preferring to eat at home. When we were leaving, Holly said "Do you
at least want to get a drink?" but it wasn't a hopeful question. She
didn't want one. She was just considerately trying to make sure I
had a good time at the mall and that I was comfortable.
I'm really glad we went.
It's doing things together that makes unschooling work so well, and
so "child led" puts and ugly light on it. And because in so many
homeschooling-in-general families children are considered (poor
things) sinful creatures who need to be molded and saved, for us as
rational adults to leave the suggestion that we let sinful impetuous
wild little creatures lead us around (because we can't help how they
see "child") isn't any good for unschooling's peaceful future.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
shows and movies, look:
-=-The missions started out being Alexx's idea, and we kinda just
went along... hard for a 6 year old to go to missions alone. Now,
it's a family thing. we all go, and we only have 6 more until we've
seen them all...-=-
I got all that far before I figured out you must not be talking about
Start Trek missions at all. <bwg>
-=-I respect what they want to do and go into it with a positive
mindset--and often find that I enjoy it a great deal. They do the
same.-=-
Yesterday I was merrily in the midst of several online projects,
thinking how comfortable the house felt, and how quiet, and Holly
came and asked me if I wanted to go to the mall and a movie.
I didn't. I said not really. Then I realized what a good
opportunity I might miss, and that the internet will be here later,
but the chance to go places with Holly won't always be here. So I
said no, I did want to go.
Her computer is down and I hadn't thought of that, so she used mine
to look of a movie. We went to see Forgetting Sarah Marshall at the
dollar theater ($2 each, on weekends; sometimes $1 or 50 cents), and
then went to Claires in the mall and got a three-for-the-price-of-two
deal on earrings. Both of us offered to do more for the other's
sake, both of us asked "do you want to get food?" and both of us were
preferring to eat at home. When we were leaving, Holly said "Do you
at least want to get a drink?" but it wasn't a hopeful question. She
didn't want one. She was just considerately trying to make sure I
had a good time at the mall and that I was comfortable.
I'm really glad we went.
It's doing things together that makes unschooling work so well, and
so "child led" puts and ugly light on it. And because in so many
homeschooling-in-general families children are considered (poor
things) sinful creatures who need to be molded and saved, for us as
rational adults to leave the suggestion that we let sinful impetuous
wild little creatures lead us around (because we can't help how they
see "child") isn't any good for unschooling's peaceful future.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Anyway, I don't feel as thought I lead, as the adult, nor do I
feel that they lead--as in child led learning. I kinda feel like we
are all just going through this together. -=-
I'm all mixed up and haven't read these in order, but sometimes the
truth of a word doesn't mean it can be used without wrong impressions.
In our family, as activities and learning go, in the overall picture
of the last 21 years, I have "led" BIGTIME, but what I did was to
lead us all toward unschooling. We didn't muddle toward it
accidentally as a family. I designed and created the situation
(given what I had to work with, which pretty wonderfully included
Keith having recently gotten a really good job, and us having been
involved in the SCA a long time) and made sure I really knew what I
was doing (or trying to do).
There was no "group lead" on that. I think someone in the family
needs to feel responsible for making sure there's cohesion and
momentum. I wanted momentum. When it wasn't there already, I add
more.
Still. Now that our kids are all practically grown (Kirby IS grown;
21 and living elsewhere), momentum doesn't have to be monitored in
half-hour blocks, but maybe in two-day blocks. And sometimes they
have so much planned and happening that all I need to do is check to
make sure they have the clothes they need for jobs, friends'
weddings, trips; that the car-sharing plans will work out (we're two
cars for four people, kind of; Keith has a motorcycle, and there's a
van without air conditioning that sucks gasoline like a van and Holly
and I don't like to drive it anyway, so I dont' count that)... I'm
more background logistics some weeks than big planner.
As to being the person who make sure it's all happening, though, the
director-style leader, that's me. But their learning isn't "led" by
me. Sometimes it is nudged or augmented or sparkled up by me.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
feel that they lead--as in child led learning. I kinda feel like we
are all just going through this together. -=-
I'm all mixed up and haven't read these in order, but sometimes the
truth of a word doesn't mean it can be used without wrong impressions.
In our family, as activities and learning go, in the overall picture
of the last 21 years, I have "led" BIGTIME, but what I did was to
lead us all toward unschooling. We didn't muddle toward it
accidentally as a family. I designed and created the situation
(given what I had to work with, which pretty wonderfully included
Keith having recently gotten a really good job, and us having been
involved in the SCA a long time) and made sure I really knew what I
was doing (or trying to do).
There was no "group lead" on that. I think someone in the family
needs to feel responsible for making sure there's cohesion and
momentum. I wanted momentum. When it wasn't there already, I add
more.
Still. Now that our kids are all practically grown (Kirby IS grown;
21 and living elsewhere), momentum doesn't have to be monitored in
half-hour blocks, but maybe in two-day blocks. And sometimes they
have so much planned and happening that all I need to do is check to
make sure they have the clothes they need for jobs, friends'
weddings, trips; that the car-sharing plans will work out (we're two
cars for four people, kind of; Keith has a motorcycle, and there's a
van without air conditioning that sucks gasoline like a van and Holly
and I don't like to drive it anyway, so I dont' count that)... I'm
more background logistics some weeks than big planner.
As to being the person who make sure it's all happening, though, the
director-style leader, that's me. But their learning isn't "led" by
me. Sometimes it is nudged or augmented or sparkled up by me.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm wondering what you mean by not wholly honest? Pretending to be
schooling when they're not? Would the kids in on the deception? I'm
trying to picture how this would work.-=-
I suspect some moms talk one way to their husbands and another way to
other unschooling moms.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
schooling when they're not? Would the kids in on the deception? I'm
trying to picture how this would work.-=-
I suspect some moms talk one way to their husbands and another way to
other unschooling moms.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I think they are lables...which I don't like to use. I also am
causious
about making things black and white, since my version may not be
anothers...-=-
It's fine if your version isn't everyone else's, but if you find
yourself helping other unschoolers, you *will* need to know what will
help and what will hinder.
The argument against black and white is fine. When it turns into an
argument against better and worse, then it's a problem.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
causious
about making things black and white, since my version may not be
anothers...-=-
It's fine if your version isn't everyone else's, but if you find
yourself helping other unschoolers, you *will* need to know what will
help and what will hinder.
The argument against black and white is fine. When it turns into an
argument against better and worse, then it's a problem.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
> In our family, as activities and learning go, in the overall pictureThis is what I was feeling when I was saying that I was leading, then I
> of the last 21 years, I have "led" BIGTIME, but what I did was to
> lead us all toward unschooling. We didn't muddle toward it
> accidentally as a family. I designed and created the situation
started thinking more on it and realized that there are 2 (or more)
aspects there. When I say that I lead my kids, this is what I'm meaning
and it is sort of the bigger structure, and when I say I'm more of a
guidance counselor, it more accurately describes the finer details.
> There was no "group lead" on that. I think someone in the familyYes, this is exactly how I feel about my role in our family. When I
> needs to feel responsible for making sure there's cohesion and
> momentum. I wanted momentum. When it wasn't there already, I add
> more.
>
> As to being the person who make sure it's all happening, though, the
> director-style leader, that's me. But their learning isn't "led" by
> me. Sometimes it is nudged or augmented or sparkled up by me.
hear or read "child-led", it doesn't portray that at all. One gets more
of an image of a child, ruling the roost, so to speak. The phrasing
alone doesn't indicate a parent in the picture at all, except for
perhaps following the child around picking up the trash they strew on
the floor. Ok, maybe that's a bad example, cuz I actually do that, but
not necessarily in the martyr sort of way. More in the "why didn't I
think to put a garbage can out here, oh well, I better pick this up
before the sticky wrapper sticks to the carpet". In the way of leading
by example, I pick up and often someone just starts helping.
Jenny C
"I'm not sure exactly why you think child-led or child-directed leaves
the parent out of the equation. If the child chooses his/her own
explorations than that is the beginning (not that it Always in every
circumstance has to be), thus the child-led and then the guiding from
the parent if needed can come into play."
Children are always choosing their own explorations. Parents are the
ones who either help or hinder that process. Unschooling parents should
be helping in that process, not sitting back and watching it happen, but
actively participating on all levels. A parent shouldn't always wait
for their kid to ask for something, a parent can observe and be actively
involved to varying degrees, and see where things can be expanded and
throw it out there.
A child might not have thought to add little animals to the legos, but a
parent can certainly enhance the play by doing so. Or for older kids,
like my daughter, 14, never would have thought there were underage
nightclubs, unless I had told her and showed her and found all the
information, because she was/is interested in the 80's club scene and
curious to know if such things still existed.
The actual phrasing is really what I was talking about though and what
it implies. "Child-led" leaves the parent out. It doesn't say "parent
and child-led" or "child-leading-parent" or any other thing with the
word parent in there. Even more so, it implies that the child is the
center and everything and everyone else evolves around that. That
simply isn't how it has come to play out in our house. We are a family
where our children are certainly coming first in lots of ways, and
definitely we center ourselves around our children, but not because they
are leading, but because they are equal members in the household.
More traditional parenting dismisses children outright in their role in
the family, they are small and unheard. The parents lead, the opposite
would be the child leading and that very much gives the wrong impression
of what actually happens in an unschooling household where everyone
works together, and those younger are relying on those that are older
and have more experience.
the parent out of the equation. If the child chooses his/her own
explorations than that is the beginning (not that it Always in every
circumstance has to be), thus the child-led and then the guiding from
the parent if needed can come into play."
Children are always choosing their own explorations. Parents are the
ones who either help or hinder that process. Unschooling parents should
be helping in that process, not sitting back and watching it happen, but
actively participating on all levels. A parent shouldn't always wait
for their kid to ask for something, a parent can observe and be actively
involved to varying degrees, and see where things can be expanded and
throw it out there.
A child might not have thought to add little animals to the legos, but a
parent can certainly enhance the play by doing so. Or for older kids,
like my daughter, 14, never would have thought there were underage
nightclubs, unless I had told her and showed her and found all the
information, because she was/is interested in the 80's club scene and
curious to know if such things still existed.
The actual phrasing is really what I was talking about though and what
it implies. "Child-led" leaves the parent out. It doesn't say "parent
and child-led" or "child-leading-parent" or any other thing with the
word parent in there. Even more so, it implies that the child is the
center and everything and everyone else evolves around that. That
simply isn't how it has come to play out in our house. We are a family
where our children are certainly coming first in lots of ways, and
definitely we center ourselves around our children, but not because they
are leading, but because they are equal members in the household.
More traditional parenting dismisses children outright in their role in
the family, they are small and unheard. The parents lead, the opposite
would be the child leading and that very much gives the wrong impression
of what actually happens in an unschooling household where everyone
works together, and those younger are relying on those that are older
and have more experience.
keetry
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
again. This all seems so vague to me that I don't really understand
what you are meaning. How do you know or decide what will help and
what will hinder? Is that all based on what is considered radical
unschooling, that radical unschooling is better? What about the people
who don't want to know about that but still want to discuss
unschooling? How do you help them?
Alysia
>will
> It's fine if your version isn't everyone else's, but if you find
> yourself helping other unschoolers, you *will* need to know what
> help and what will hinder.I'm feeling a bit dense right now but I need to ask for clarification
>
> The argument against black and white is fine. When it turns into an
> argument against better and worse, then it's a problem.
again. This all seems so vague to me that I don't really understand
what you are meaning. How do you know or decide what will help and
what will hinder? Is that all based on what is considered radical
unschooling, that radical unschooling is better? What about the people
who don't want to know about that but still want to discuss
unschooling? How do you help them?
Alysia
Sylvia Toyama
I suspect some moms talk one way to their husbands and another way to
other unschooling moms.
Sandra
*****
I'm sure that happens, but it's not specifically an unschooling issue. Moms who tell the husband one thing (to protect their own status quo) and girlfriends another (to fit in), will do it in every possible way. They're choosing to live a lie, or several. And they're likely lying to both their husband and their friends. They would find a way to live that double life of deception even without unschooling. It's much more about a lack of integrity than about unschooling.
Sylvia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
other unschooling moms.
Sandra
*****
I'm sure that happens, but it's not specifically an unschooling issue. Moms who tell the husband one thing (to protect their own status quo) and girlfriends another (to fit in), will do it in every possible way. They're choosing to live a lie, or several. And they're likely lying to both their husband and their friends. They would find a way to live that double life of deception even without unschooling. It's much more about a lack of integrity than about unschooling.
Sylvia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Toyama
in my last two posts many of the spaces between the words were occupied
by the same string of characters -- made them practically
unreadable
I typed just the way I always do, so what happened? Anyone know what it
is? Is it something I'm doing on my end or just some weird demon in
cyberspace?
email me privately if you can help
Sylvia
by the same string of characters -- made them practically
unreadable
I typed just the way I always do, so what happened? Anyone know what it
is? Is it something I'm doing on my end or just some weird demon in
cyberspace?
email me privately if you can help
Sylvia
Sandra Dodd
-=-How do you know or decide what will help and
what will hinder?-=-
Fifty four years of paying close attention to everything around me?
I don't "decide," I know. I've figured out. I've learned.
-=-Is that all based on what is considered radical unschooling, that
radical unschooling is better? -=-
That question all by itself doesn't make sense. I'll go with your
next question first.
-=-What about the people who don't want to know about that but still
want to discuss unschooling?-=-
Why would people who don't want to know about radical unschooling
come hang out with me?
-=-How do you help them?-=-
How does a meat market help a vegetarian?
How does the cable TV company help someone who neither has nor wants
a TV?
If someone who wants to discuss unschooling but doesn't want to talk
about radical unschooling, I'll tell them it's a big internet and
they'll easily find a group that is to their liking.
Sandra
what will hinder?-=-
Fifty four years of paying close attention to everything around me?
I don't "decide," I know. I've figured out. I've learned.
-=-Is that all based on what is considered radical unschooling, that
radical unschooling is better? -=-
That question all by itself doesn't make sense. I'll go with your
next question first.
-=-What about the people who don't want to know about that but still
want to discuss unschooling?-=-
Why would people who don't want to know about radical unschooling
come hang out with me?
-=-How do you help them?-=-
How does a meat market help a vegetarian?
How does the cable TV company help someone who neither has nor wants
a TV?
If someone who wants to discuss unschooling but doesn't want to talk
about radical unschooling, I'll tell them it's a big internet and
they'll easily find a group that is to their liking.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/15/2008 11:49:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Sandra@... writes:
<<<"child led" puts and ugly light on it. >>>
I've been reading along with this thread and absently thinking in the back
of my mind that though I don't vocalize that we do child-led
learning/homeschooling (though I do use that as an opener if one of my family uses
"unschooling" in reference to a stranger's questioning... more as a beginning
explanation of what unschooling is in simple terms), I'm thinking I kind of think of us
a child-led. Our oldest child, Wyl, *definitely* led us to unschooling. I
tend to "run amok" and go full-steam ahead, take control and such when I get an
idea in my head, so I tend to "control" myself, sit back a lot and watch.
Watch for interests, openings, places I can drop tid bits or toss some casual
idea in. But, as I'm reading and pausing more to think in the "forefront" of
my head, I'm thinking that maybe the idea that we're child-lead is more of a
surface-perception kind of thing. As in, if I compare it to how I was
envisioning homeschooling: colored pencils, crayons, big-lined paper, charts, fun
workbooks, mama-led *teaching* to how things look *now*, on the surface, at a
quick glance, it *might* seem child-led, but it really is a wonderful dance. A
give-and-take... lead and fall back... a swirling-round of first one person
in the lead, then someone else, always moving in and out of formation, never
still. I chuckle to myself as I think "unschooling is poetry in motion"... not
really where I was intending on going, but the thought-process is still
swirling in itself.
Great thread-thanks for everyone's input... it helped me see beyond!
Peace,
De
**************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best
2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra@... writes:
<<<"child led" puts and ugly light on it. >>>
I've been reading along with this thread and absently thinking in the back
of my mind that though I don't vocalize that we do child-led
learning/homeschooling (though I do use that as an opener if one of my family uses
"unschooling" in reference to a stranger's questioning... more as a beginning
explanation of what unschooling is in simple terms), I'm thinking I kind of think of us
a child-led. Our oldest child, Wyl, *definitely* led us to unschooling. I
tend to "run amok" and go full-steam ahead, take control and such when I get an
idea in my head, so I tend to "control" myself, sit back a lot and watch.
Watch for interests, openings, places I can drop tid bits or toss some casual
idea in. But, as I'm reading and pausing more to think in the "forefront" of
my head, I'm thinking that maybe the idea that we're child-lead is more of a
surface-perception kind of thing. As in, if I compare it to how I was
envisioning homeschooling: colored pencils, crayons, big-lined paper, charts, fun
workbooks, mama-led *teaching* to how things look *now*, on the surface, at a
quick glance, it *might* seem child-led, but it really is a wonderful dance. A
give-and-take... lead and fall back... a swirling-round of first one person
in the lead, then someone else, always moving in and out of formation, never
still. I chuckle to myself as I think "unschooling is poetry in motion"... not
really where I was intending on going, but the thought-process is still
swirling in itself.
Great thread-thanks for everyone's input... it helped me see beyond!
Peace,
De
**************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best
2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keetry
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
wrote:
world at large. You are thinking of all the discussions on here only
in terms of being within this group?
of school and homeschooling comes up. People start talking about
curricula and academics. I homeschool so they'll ask me what I do. I
tell them we don't follow any of that. I may tell these people that
I unschool because as homeschoolers they probably know a little more
about that term than the average person in line with me at the
store. Most times I get an, "Oh, I couldn't do that," or "That's not
for us." Sometimes someone will seem more interested and we talk a
little more. If the conversation progresses to more of the "radical"
aspects, they immediately dismiss (that's not quite the right word
but I can't think of the correct one at the moment) it. So, they
seem interested in unschooling but only in terms of academics. They
don't want to know about truly noncoercive parenting or really
giving children the freedom and autonomy to discover the world for
themselves.
Alysia
wrote:
>wants
> -=-How do you help them?-=-
>
> How does a meat market help a vegetarian?
>
> How does the cable TV company help someone who neither has nor
> a TV?talk
>
> If someone who wants to discuss unschooling but doesn't want to
> about radical unschooling, I'll tell them it's a big internet andI'm not necessarily talking about this group. I'm talking about the
> they'll easily find a group that is to their liking.
world at large. You are thinking of all the discussions on here only
in terms of being within this group?
> Why would people who don't want to know about radical unschoolingI've been in situations, at a playgroup for example, and the subject
> come hang out with me?
of school and homeschooling comes up. People start talking about
curricula and academics. I homeschool so they'll ask me what I do. I
tell them we don't follow any of that. I may tell these people that
I unschool because as homeschoolers they probably know a little more
about that term than the average person in line with me at the
store. Most times I get an, "Oh, I couldn't do that," or "That's not
for us." Sometimes someone will seem more interested and we talk a
little more. If the conversation progresses to more of the "radical"
aspects, they immediately dismiss (that's not quite the right word
but I can't think of the correct one at the moment) it. So, they
seem interested in unschooling but only in terms of academics. They
don't want to know about truly noncoercive parenting or really
giving children the freedom and autonomy to discover the world for
themselves.
Alysia
Pamela Sorooshian
Yahoogroups is glitching - lots of weird html stuff appearing in
posts. They are aware of it and say they are working on it - it has
been going on for a week or two. The other part of the glitch is that
sometimes posts look truncated - they only appear that way to the
actual sender, not to the rest of the people on the list.
-pam
posts. They are aware of it and say they are working on it - it has
been going on for a week or two. The other part of the glitch is that
sometimes posts look truncated - they only appear that way to the
actual sender, not to the rest of the people on the list.
-pam
On Jun 15, 2008, at 1:22 PM, Sylvia Toyama wrote:
> I'm sure that happens, but it's not specifically an unschooling
> issue. Moms who tell the husband one thing (to protect their
> own status quo) and girlfriends another (to fit in), will
> do it in every possible way. They're choosing
> to live a lie, or several. And they're likely lying to
> both their husband and their friends. They would find a way to
> live that double life of deception even without
> unschooling. It's much more about a lack of integrity
> than about unschooling.
>
> Sylvia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
This is a possible fix for the glitches in the yahoogroups posts, for
those of us who are experiencing them.
Go to the yahoogroups webpage for this group:
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/>
Click on "edit membership" at the top.
Scroll down to Step 3 and change to "traditional."
-pam
those of us who are experiencing them.
Go to the yahoogroups webpage for this group:
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/>
Click on "edit membership" at the top.
Scroll down to Step 3 and change to "traditional."
-pam
Bob Collier
My own situation, fwiw.
In relation to school, I usually describe my 'out of school' son as
"self-educated".
When I started my blog recently, however, I chose "self-motivated
learner" because I wanted a term that could be applied to everyone in
my family.
My wife is an Associate Lecturer at the Australian National University
and has an MBA that she acquired by distance learning. I'm a high
school dropout with no formal qualifications. Our daughter is an
always schooled university graduate. Our son went to school for two
years and has been at home with me for the past five and he decides
for himself what he's interested in and what he isn't. Only one of us
would be recognised as 'unschooled' but we're all self-motivated
learners.
For me, self-motivated learning means "don't wait for somebody else to
decide they want to teach you".
How that fits in with parenting: my wife and I honour our children's
self-authority ("Only I know what's best for me") and we expect them
to honour ours. That manifests in a tendency for everyone to do what
they like and not do what they don't like. Including go to school or
don't go to school. The existence of school or no school as an option
is incidental in itself. My son is out of school because of what my
wife and I believe about parenting, not because of what we believe
about school.
Before my daughter started school at the age of five, she had the same
lifestyle of maximum freedom her brother has now; after she started
school, it became a part-time lifestyle. At all times she was out of
school, she was free to do what she liked and not do what she didn't
like. She continued to choose her own bedtime even when she was at
school the next day and she chose to do her school homework. She was
never once asked to do it, she did it anyway. Whenever she wanted a
day off school, she had a day off school no questions asked, and I
would happily fabricate the 'sick note' she was required to give to
her teacher the next day.
I think it's impossible for my wife and I not to have influenced our
children's decisions about their own lives to some degree through the
decisions we've made about what we want for ourselves. Which includes
happy and successful children. Whatever we've perceived that to mean.
We've never 'told' our children to do anything, but our conversations
with them have often included suggestions and recommendations. Should
our children choose to ignore or reject our alleged 'wisdom', we
accept that and move on. There are occasions when we continue to
believe we're right and we'll come back later to the same subject, and
then it's up to us to make our case. In conversations on the same
subject over time, our children will occasionally change their minds,
and often they won't. It's okay either way. But, we want what we want,
the same as our children want what they want, and that's always going
to be part of the equation.
Bob
In relation to school, I usually describe my 'out of school' son as
"self-educated".
When I started my blog recently, however, I chose "self-motivated
learner" because I wanted a term that could be applied to everyone in
my family.
My wife is an Associate Lecturer at the Australian National University
and has an MBA that she acquired by distance learning. I'm a high
school dropout with no formal qualifications. Our daughter is an
always schooled university graduate. Our son went to school for two
years and has been at home with me for the past five and he decides
for himself what he's interested in and what he isn't. Only one of us
would be recognised as 'unschooled' but we're all self-motivated
learners.
For me, self-motivated learning means "don't wait for somebody else to
decide they want to teach you".
How that fits in with parenting: my wife and I honour our children's
self-authority ("Only I know what's best for me") and we expect them
to honour ours. That manifests in a tendency for everyone to do what
they like and not do what they don't like. Including go to school or
don't go to school. The existence of school or no school as an option
is incidental in itself. My son is out of school because of what my
wife and I believe about parenting, not because of what we believe
about school.
Before my daughter started school at the age of five, she had the same
lifestyle of maximum freedom her brother has now; after she started
school, it became a part-time lifestyle. At all times she was out of
school, she was free to do what she liked and not do what she didn't
like. She continued to choose her own bedtime even when she was at
school the next day and she chose to do her school homework. She was
never once asked to do it, she did it anyway. Whenever she wanted a
day off school, she had a day off school no questions asked, and I
would happily fabricate the 'sick note' she was required to give to
her teacher the next day.
I think it's impossible for my wife and I not to have influenced our
children's decisions about their own lives to some degree through the
decisions we've made about what we want for ourselves. Which includes
happy and successful children. Whatever we've perceived that to mean.
We've never 'told' our children to do anything, but our conversations
with them have often included suggestions and recommendations. Should
our children choose to ignore or reject our alleged 'wisdom', we
accept that and move on. There are occasions when we continue to
believe we're right and we'll come back later to the same subject, and
then it's up to us to make our case. In conversations on the same
subject over time, our children will occasionally change their minds,
and often they won't. It's okay either way. But, we want what we want,
the same as our children want what they want, and that's always going
to be part of the equation.
Bob
--- In [email protected], "Jenny C" <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
>
> I hear the phrase "child-led" or "child-directed" a lot in the
> context of unschooling, either by non-unschoolers trying to describe
> unschooling or by unschoolers trying to describe unschooling to those
> that know nothing about it.
>
> The main issue that I have with those terms is that it leaves the
> parent out of the equation. I've never used it for that reason, and
> also because what we do at our house looks nothing like what those
> phrases imply.
>
> I very much lead my kids. As my older daughter has gotten older,
> she's done more and more of her own leading, but I still do a lot of
> initiating of things. Actually as I'm writing this, I'm aware of the
> fact that the word "lead" is somewhat not the right word. I
> think "guide" might be a better word all around. I don't guide by
> compulsion, but more like a guidance counselor would do it, listen
> and watch and observe and offer direction and help as needed.
>
> I also have issues with "radical" unschooling too. We either
> unschool or we don't. Unschooling is extremely radical for most
> people already. I also don't buy into the idea that any parent can
> unschool curriculum and not extend it farther into other areas of
> life and have unschooling work effectively (and I think this is what
> some mean when they say they unschool but not radically). My own
> experience says that it can't be done without seriously damaging the
> parent/child relationship and trust issues that really make
> unschooling work as awesomely as it does.
>
> Unschooling really seems more about relationships all around. Which
> is mostly why "child-led" or "child-directed" is so problematic. I
> don't know if John Holt ever intended unschooling to be what I've
> come to know it as, but he certainly planted the seeds of change in
> the way we can raise our kids without forcible teaching.
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm not necessarily talking about this group. I'm talking about the
world at large. You are thinking of all the discussions on here only
in terms of being within this group?-=-
I'm confused.
-=-I've been in situations, at a playgroup for example, and the subject
of school and homeschooling comes up. People start talking about
curricula and academics. I homeschool so they'll ask me what I do. I
tell them we don't follow any of that. I may tell these people that
I unschool because as homeschoolers they probably know a little more
about that term than the average person in line with me at the
store. Most times I get an, "Oh, I couldn't do that," or "That's not
for us." Sometimes someone will seem more interested and we talk a
little more. If the conversation progresses to more of the "radical"
aspects, they immediately dismiss (that's not quite the right word
but I can't think of the correct one at the moment) it. So, they
seem interested in unschooling but only in terms of academics. They
don't want to know about truly noncoercive parenting or really
giving children the freedom and autonomy to discover the world for
themselves. -=-
On one hand, it's good to get people interested and not make them
uncomfortable. It's courteous to stay in their comfort level,
especially if it's just a casual question from someone who doesn't
even have kids.
It would be discourteous and dishonest, though, if a person with
children who was seriously considering homeschooling asked you and
you didn't eventually (while she's still curious) let her know that
it goes beyond academics for your children and that when learning
isn't scheduled, unschooling is all the time.
Sandra
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
world at large. You are thinking of all the discussions on here only
in terms of being within this group?-=-
I'm confused.
-=-I've been in situations, at a playgroup for example, and the subject
of school and homeschooling comes up. People start talking about
curricula and academics. I homeschool so they'll ask me what I do. I
tell them we don't follow any of that. I may tell these people that
I unschool because as homeschoolers they probably know a little more
about that term than the average person in line with me at the
store. Most times I get an, "Oh, I couldn't do that," or "That's not
for us." Sometimes someone will seem more interested and we talk a
little more. If the conversation progresses to more of the "radical"
aspects, they immediately dismiss (that's not quite the right word
but I can't think of the correct one at the moment) it. So, they
seem interested in unschooling but only in terms of academics. They
don't want to know about truly noncoercive parenting or really
giving children the freedom and autonomy to discover the world for
themselves. -=-
On one hand, it's good to get people interested and not make them
uncomfortable. It's courteous to stay in their comfort level,
especially if it's just a casual question from someone who doesn't
even have kids.
It would be discourteous and dishonest, though, if a person with
children who was seriously considering homeschooling asked you and
you didn't eventually (while she's still curious) let her know that
it goes beyond academics for your children and that when learning
isn't scheduled, unschooling is all the time.
Sandra
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]